Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Live Sunday

Russian Withstands Hour Long Ice Bath In Commemoration Of WWII; Independent Truck Drivers Considering Strike; More Details Discussed About Atlanta Shooting Suspect

Aired March 13, 2005 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN LIVE SUNDAY: A community gathers to honor those lost from Atlanta's criminal justice system as a suspect awaits a court appearance. Also from the front lines tonight, we will go behind the scenes with American contractors charged with restoring war torn Iraq. And a deep free dip. We're going to check out a record. Too cool to believe. It is March 13 and you're watching CNN LIVE SUNDAY. Good evening. From the CNN global headquarters in Atlanta, I'm Carol Lin and here's what's happening right now in the news.
An average guy. That is how a neighbor describes gunman Terry Ratzmann. Ratzmann fatally shot seven church members before killing himself in suburban Milwaukee. Police are trying to determine a motive. We are going to have a live report from the scene in just a few minutes.

And we don't know yet well, if the biggest names in baseball will step to the plate on Capitol Hill. The chairman of the House panel holding hearings on steroids is threatening contempt proceedings if subpoenaed players don't show. Slugger Jason Giambi and pitcher Curt Schilling are among the players called to testify on Thursday.

And it's a small business world after all. The Walt Disney Company says its president will succeed Michael Eisner as CEO. Robert Iger was unanimously elected by the Disney board. He will take over when Eisner steps down September 30.

Right now, up first this hour, a city in mourning and a suspect behind bars. A day after his capture, Brian Nichols is under maximum security at a Federal prison in Atlanta. He may go before a judge as soon as tomorrow. Nichols is suspected of killing four people during a 26-hour crime spree. New details are emerging about the ordeal of the woman he allegedly took hostage at an apartment complex. Sources say Nichols saw her at a store early Saturday and followed her home. He allegedly forced his way in and tied her up. Sources say, in the hours that followed, the woman told Nichols about her daughter and said the child would be orphaned if he was killed. The woman was eventually able to leave the apartment and call 911. Police are still interviewing her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJOR BART HULSEY, CMDR, GWINNETT CO. SWAT TEAM: They are continuing to talk to the lady, make sure that her information is valid and that is has credibility while, simultaneously the officers responded to the complex. As you know, Bridgewater, if you've been out there, is a large complex. The uniform officers, once they determined that, they did a excellent job of shutting that down and making sure that he had no avenue of escape in a vehicle. They identified which building it was and the watch commander made quick decision to activate the SWAT team.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Well, in the meantime, the apartment complex where Nichols was captured, a lot of the neighbors in that complex are talking about the suspect. CNN's Elizabeth Cohen is at the apartment complex where Nichols surrendered. What more are you learning out there Elizabeth?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well actually what we learned today was from the complex where Nichols lived. At the time that he was arrested for allegedly raping his girlfriend, he didn't live here. This is where he surrendered. He lived in a condominium complex about 10 miles away from here in Sandy Springs, Georgia. The neighbors there helped answer the question, who is Brian Nichols?

And what they said is, you know what, we saw him and some of them said he was even cordial. He would say hello. He would chat while we were getting mail. He lived there for awhile alone, and, for awhile, he lived with his girlfriend. At one point, the homeowners' association board did try to evict him, but it wasn't because of him per se, it was because his pit bull had become a nuisance. The neighbors we talked to said they never perceived of Brian Nichols as being a threat of any kind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEG ARMISTEAD, NICHOLS FORMER NEIGHBOR: I was completely amazed that any of this happened because I never would have guessed in a million years that he was capable of something like that. I mean, just - stunned, when I heard who the perpetrator was down at the courthouse. When I saw him picture and recognized him, it just blew me away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: Now, the neighbors had nothing but nice things to say about his girlfriend. They said that she was very active in the community, in fact, was a member of the home owner's association's board.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARMISTEAD: Warm, friendly, just a good, seemed like a really good girl, just seemed like a really good person, very smart, intelligence. Worked in a professional capacity, from what I understand, just very nice girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: Now, the neighbors said that they remember the day when Nichols was arrested for raping this girlfriend who he was living with at the condominium complex. Not then, but, a previous time before that and they said they remember, they said, there were SWAT teams everywhere. Carol?

LIN: All right. Thanks very much, Elizabeth. One man, obviously two very different personalities. Brian Nichols family and friends are shocked at the events that have transpired over the past few days, describing him as nothing but a nice and caring man. CNN's Kathleen Koch has more from Nichols' hometown of Baltimore, Maryland.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On this quiet street in northeast Baltimore where Brian Nichols grew up, there was relief that he surrendered Saturday without a fight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm glad they didn't kill him.

KOCH: Nichols attended a local Catholic school, Cardinal Gibbons High School, where he played basketball and football. His friends say what stood out was his athletic ability and his sense of humor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Laughed a lot, smiled a lot, liked to play. You know, liked to joke. I cannot recall any event or behavior from him that would be -- that would send off a warning signal this was to come, nothing, absolutely nothing.

KOCH: Nichols left Baltimore in 1989 to play football and study at Kutztown University in Pennsylvania and later Newberry College in South Carolina.

CHARLES FRANKLIN: But my mind could not comprehend how this could happen to one of our own.

KOCH: Boyhood friend and Minister Charles Franklin shared his disbelief with his congregation.

FRANKLIN: How sense (ph) this is and how tragic it is and how hone of us would have ever seen this happening to someone that we know and that is so lovable, the jokes of the neighborhood and very intelligent. You know, what point drove him to this?

KOCH: Answers are in short supply among Nichols' former neighbors.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was just a very nice kid from what I could see. I really think that, whatever the problem was, it lies somewhere way beneath what we can see, you know?

KOCH: They wait now for the inevitable court proceedings and, if convicted, the punishment of someone they once thought they knew so well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be found guilty for the crimes, you know, he has to suffer the consequences.

KOCH: Kathleen Koch, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE) LIN: Well, the Atlanta shooting spree left several people dead. Julie Brandau was the court reporter in Nichols' rape trial. Fulton County superior court Judge Rowland Barnes was presiding over the case, and both were shot dead inside the Atlanta courthouse. Sgt. Hoyt Teasley was fatally shot outside and David Wilhelm, a U.S. immigration and customs enforcement agent was shot dead yesterday at his suburban Atlanta home. Court reporter Julie Brandau was known for a really big heart and one of Brandau's closest friends talked to me about her loss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EVELYN PARKER, COURT REPORTER: We went to concerts together, and just did special things, and, I don't have a friend to do that with anymore. I mean, she was like -- the one I could be, really myself with. And -- so, I don't have that friend, that kind of friend left.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: The anecdotes that Evelyn Parker talked about Julie Brandau are simply amazing. This court reporter was a remarkable woman. Please join me for my entire interview tonight with Evelyn Parker at 11:00 Eastern.

Also, please don't miss a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE on the Atlanta shootings tonight. Nancy Grace guest hosts and she is going to talk to some key people in the case, including the newspaper reporter allegedly car jacked by Brian Nichols. The two-hour special begins tonight at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

In the meantime, it's also called the day after in another big U.S. city. Police are trying to figure out why a man opened fire during a religious gathering in suburban Milwaukee. Deanna Durante from affiliate WITI is in Brookfield, Wisconsin. Deanna, what have you learned?

DEANNA DURANTE, WITI: Well, tonight police still say that they don't have a motive in this case. The shooter apparently had no criminal history. Right now, investigators are focusing on the last 24 hours of Terry Ratzmann's life. He is the man that police confirm tonight is the 45-year-old man who opened fire inside the Sheraton Hotel here in Brookfield yesterday afternoon, during a church service. This church group apparently came here every Saturday for the last four or five years.

Eleven people were shot. Eight people are dead. A victim who was only 10-years old is still in the hospital. She's the youngest victim in all of this. Now Ratzmann apparently stopped shooting long enough to reload his weapon. In all he fired 22 shots inside the hotel meeting room. Now we knew yesterday, police searched the house that Ratzmann shared with his mother and his sister in New Berlin. Here is what they took as evidence: bullets, to the .9 millimeter gun they say Ratzmann used in the shooting, a 22 caliber rifle and computers, three computers with encrypted files. Those computers could be key to figuring out why Ratzmann wanted to kill so many people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF DANIEL TUSHAUS, BROOKFIELD POLICE: We have no clear motive. We have not uncovered any clear documentation as to motive. We have not found a suicide note or any documentation from the suspect to give you a clear concise motive for the shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DURANTE: You are looking live at the memorial that's been set up here in the Sheraton parking lot. People who had absolutely no connection to these victims have been coming by and dropping off flowers. There are crosses lined up there with the names of the victims who have been killed. Some say Ratzmann either lost his job or was about to lose his job around the time of the shooting and that could be where the computers come into play. The Waukesha County district attorney told us, the fact that the files are encrypted, that means he obviously didn't want to share what he was thinking with people. It will take a long time to go through those computers to actually get in there, see what those files are. We are also told that maybe he had a problem with one of the sermons in the past, that a few weeks ago he got up and left one of the church services and was upset. So again, investigators still have a lot to sift through right now. In most crimes, the intensive search is for a suspect. They have a suspect now but the fact that he is dead is not leading to many clues. Reporting live in Brookfield, Wisconsin, Deanna Durante for CNN.

LIN: Deanna, what about anything that the suspect said before he opened fire. There surely must be some clues about this man and why he did what he did.

DURANTE: Actually, they booked the room from 12:30 to about 3:30 for a three hour service. They say Ratzmann came in about 10, 20 minutes after the service began, didn't say a word, just started shooting.

LIN: Deanna Durante, thank you very much, our affiliate WITI.

In the meantime, a ride home from the hospital with papal proportions. Up next, the pope's latest step on the road to recovery.

And, still to come --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Just getting the guys into work, the local workers in is a hassle, takes hours for them to clear the security to come in every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: You do not have to wear a uniform to be on the frontlines in Iraq. We are going to show you American civilians who are risking their lives to get Iraq back on track.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LIN: The Vatican's most influential resident is sleeping in his own bed tonight. Pope John Paul II was released from a Rome hospital today and the ride home was just a few miles. But it gave Catholic faithful along the routes some much-needed reassurance about the pope's condition. Our Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci has more on the pope's homecoming.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Flanked by his private security guards, Pope John Paul II left the Gemelli Hospital in the front seat of a silver mini van, rather than his popular glass paneled pope mobile. On this chilly evening, patients in their pajamas ventured at their balconies to get a glimpse of the ailing pontiff. A television camera inside the pope's van offered a rare perspective of the journey back to the Vatican. His motorcade drove through a delighted crowd of well wishers, many with their own stories of pain and suffering.

When he drove by, I was very moved, says Tina. I also have been very sick and to see him feeling this well, I do not mind the three hours I had to wait out here.

I have a relative who is not well, says (INAUDIBLE). I believe in his faith and I came here to pray for my mother. Hundreds more lined the streets of Rome as the pope arrived in St. Peter's Square. They too were rewarded by a papal blessing.

Earlier today, the pope appeared from his hospital window. While clearly still weak, he managed to speak publicly for the first time in weeks, alleviating concerns about his ability to speak again following his throat surgery. Thank you for your visit, he told the crowd of pilgrims gathered underneath his window, adding, have a nice Sunday. His message was beamed live to St. Peter's Square, where tourists and pilgrims alike watched his appearance on giant television screens.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a opportunity to listen to him, yes. And he sounded a little weak. But, we're all praying for him and we hope for a quick recovery.

VINCI: Others, clearly unaffected by his ability to speak much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are different ways in which to communicate and I think it's clear that his mind is still engaging and very much at work and that's the most important part right now.

VINCI: Even if the pope is now back at the Vatican, he still needs time to fully recover. So, for the first time in his 26-year papacy, the pope delegated senior church officials to preside over nearly all of the events planned for the Easter week, which begins this coming Sunday. Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Coming up, we're going to get back to justice under fire. The Atlanta courthouse shooting is grabbing national headlines, but, it's certainly not the first time someone has opened fire in a courtroom. So I'm going to talk with a New York judge whose own courtroom was erupted in violence. He lived to talk about it.

And still ahead, if you hate filling up your SUV, imagine the gas bill for a big rig. We're going to show you the toll rising gas prices and what they're having - the toll they're having on mom and pop truckers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Friday's Atlanta shootings are raising new questions about courthouse security. Police say Brian Nichols was able to grab a gun from a deputy before killing Judge Rowland Barnes and a court reporter and another deputy. Well, a colleague of Judge Barnes says he has been warned about the dangers of guns in the courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE T. JACKSON BEDFORD, FULTON CO. GA SUPERIOR COURT: I had a sheriff, a bailiff that worked with me for eight years that I trusted very much and he would tell me, he said, judge, he said, if there are no guns in the courtroom, I can handle it. But he said, if there is a gun in the courtroom, whoever it belongs to, it's very dangerous.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: That was when I asked Judge Bedford in my interview with him about whether he would be willing to carry a gun into the courtroom and that was his response in essence saying no.

Now my next guest knows all too well about this issue. New York supreme court Judge Ronald Zweibel had a defendant lunge for an officer's gun in his courtroom. Well, we are joined now by the judge to talk about his experience and this whole issue of whether guns do belong in the courtroom and what can be done to protect judges. Good evening to you, judge. Thanks for being here.

JUDGE RONALD ZWEIBEL, NEW YORK SUPREME COURT: Good evening.

LIN: I don't know if you heard Judge Bedford's remarks here. He is a superior court judge here in Atlanta, had worked with Judge Barnes who was murdered on Friday. And his position was that anybody who has a gun in the courtroom has the potential to add to danger in the courtroom. Do you agree with that given what you went through and we are going to go through some of the details of your case?

ZWEIBEL: I very much do, I do agree with that. I don't think there's a need for judges to carry guns in the courtroom. In New York, we have a very fine trained staff of court officers in the courtroom at all times. There are at least four court officers in my courtroom at any one given time and we feel very secure.

LIN: Well, let's talk about what happened to you. There was a verdict that went down. It was a guilty verdict and, as I understand it, the defendant lunged for a deputy's gun inside the courtroom? ZWEIBEL: That's correct. As I was discharging a jury, after a verdict, the defendant jumped out of his seat and grabbed the sergeant and attempted to wrest the gun from his possession. The gun went off while it was still in the holster. The court officers quickly brought the defendant to the ground, and...

LIN: But, wait, it ricocheted and didn't the bullet embed in the wall behind you?

ZWEIBEL: It did. The gun went off while it was still in the holster. The bullet ricocheted off of the floor and hit the wall near where I was seated.

LIN: You could have been killed. In a situation like that, what did you do to defend yourself, I mean not even for that split second, did you wish to have a weapon in your hand, should things have gone differently with that defendant?

ZWEIBEL: Not at all. The court officers quickly brought the defendant down to the ground. I rushed off the bench immediately and I ran over to where they had the defendant down on the ground and I placed my hands on over his hand with his hand - with his finger still in the trigger, on the trigger and I secured the gun until the court personnel were able to remove the gun from him.

LIN: Good heavens. It sounds like something out of a reality TV show gone awry. So, has the security in your courtroom, did it change as a result of that? Or do you write it off as a situation that could happen to anyone at any time?

ZWEIBEL: Well, we certainly did a security reassessment after that incident and we do have heightened security in our courtrooms. We are much more vigilant, perhaps now than we ever were in the past and that is the key to it, to be extremely vigilant. What happened in Atlanta, I don't think it could happen at all in New York. We, first of all, do not bring prisoners from one building to another with a single officer. As a matter of fact, prisoners are brought into the building in a secured van, brought up, through the pen system, directly into the courtroom, and they are brought into the courtroom with handcuffs on.

LIN: In front of the jury that has to make a decision perhaps, in a case that may involve life or death.

ZWEIBEL: Well, the handcuffs are removed before the jury is brought into the courtroom.

LIN: OK, because that is one of the concerns here and in this particular case, too, that one of the jurors in Brian Nichols case may have seen him with cuffs on and that Judge Barnes had expressed concern about that.

ZWEIBEL: Well, that should never happen.

LIN: All right. Well, the woman, the female deputy, who's been critically wounded, still hospitalized, she was no demure woman. She was middle aged, but 5'10" and pretty strong, but again operating on her own, escorting that suspect into the courtroom. Judge Zweibel, thank you very much for sharing your experiences.

ZWEIBEL: You're very welcome.

LIN: Once again, we want to remind you about a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE on the Atlanta shootings tonight. Nancy Grace is going to guest hosting. The two-hour special begins tonight at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

In the meantime, American civilians on the frontlines in Iraq. Up next, we are going to show you what it's like for engineers who risk their lives just to do their jobs.

Plus, why the Bush administration is feeling pretty good about Syria's recent actions, at least for now.

And, still to come, putting your body to the test. Why this man wanted to stay in freezing water for an entire hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Welcome back. Here's a quick look at what's happening right now in the news.

A minister and his teenage son are among those killed by gunman in suburban Milwaukee. Police say church member Terry Ratzmann started firing during a service, killing seven people and then himself. Neighbors say he was a quiet man who suffered from depression for years.

And, here in Atlanta, authorities say Brian Nichols could appear in federal court as soon as tomorrow. He's suspected of killing a judge, and a court reporter, and a deputy, and a federal agent. When cornered by police SWAT team yesterday, Nichols surrendered.

Pope John Paul II is back at his apartment. He left the hospital today, 18 days after undergoing throat surgery. The Vatican says he will decide what role he will play in Holy Week activities which begin a week from today.

And it's seen as a positive sign on a sticky international issue: Syrian troops on the move out of Lebanon. Now, it's not the full withdrawal President Bush and others had called for but, it is a first step. So, joining me with more details, our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux.

Give us some perspective on this, Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, of course as you know, this is really under intense pressure. That Syrian officials say they have been making loud pronouncements that they are fully going to withdraw their military out of Lebanon. Now today, U.S. officials said that really, it is not the words that matter so much, but the actions. But, there are some U.S. officials who are acknowledging, when you look at the actions on the in Lebanon, it does give them a sense of hope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): Syrian troops are starting to move out of Lebanon. Nearly one third of the 15,000 posted there now gone western diplomatic sources tell CNN. Crossing the border, they arrived to a rousing welcome home.

The Bush administration says a welcome first step, but far from meeting the U.S. demand for complete and immediate withdrawal.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: It is positive that Syria would begin to withdraw its forces out of Lebanon not just to the border. But we are going to continue to press for full compliance with resolution 1559.

MALVEAUX: U.N. Envoy Terje Roed-Larsen told CNN that Syrian's president Bashar al-Assad assured him that the remainder of Syria's military and intelligence could be withdrawn by April 7 in plenty of time to clear the way for Lebanon's May elections. On this day, cautious optimism from the Bush administration.

STEPHEN HADLEY, NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: I think we have to take him at his word, but as I said in my earlier answer, what we need to see action and deeds, not just words.

MALVEAUX: But in southern Lebanon, tens of thousands demonstrated in support of Syria. The protest was organized by Hezbollah, a group that the U.S. maintains is a terrorist organization, but one many Lebanese and Syrians say, the U.S. will have to deal with.

RICE: Our view of Hezbollah has not changed. That it is, indeed, a terrorist organization.

BOUTHAINA SHAABAN, SYRIAN CABINET MINISTER: Hezbollah is not a Lebanese militia, Hezbollah is a political party that has 13 (ph) members in parliament. It is a very popular and it is a very important political party...

MALVEAUX: But U.S. officials say free democratic elections in Lebanon will weaken those parties like Hezbollah that use violence to maintain control.

One of the challenges for that new government will be how to deal with those elements, if any, that continue to take the path of violence and terrorism.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Now tomorrow, of course, really recognized (ph) marks the one month anniversary of the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri, of course. This was really the impetus, the trigger, for the Lebanese movement, the opposition movement. The Bush administration believes that it is part of a larger phenomenon that is continuing in the Middle East, and that is the push for democracy -- Carol.

MALVEAUX: All right. Thanks very much. Suzanne Malveaux, live at the White House.

We are used to talking about the dangers in the Middle East.

And, here we have some more bad news about civilians who are trying to rebuild Iraq. Two American security contractors have been killed in a road side bombing in Iraq. That attack happened yesterday, south of Baghdad. The victims were employed by Blackwater Security, which provides services for the U.S. Embassy. A third contractor was wounded.

And at this point, every week we try to bring you the more personal stories from the frontlines. We are going to focus on contractors and the dangers they encounter every day in Iraq. CNN's Nic Robertson has a look at the day in the life of two U.S. engineers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): The last moments of safety before leaving the green zone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we do encounter any problems or anything on the way, come under attack, or something like that, we are going to stay in the vehicle.

ROBERTSON: Engineer Jon Kretzschmar is on his way to inspect a U.S.-funded power plant.

JON KRETZSCHMAR, ELECTRICAL POWER ADVISER: I haven't physically witnessed any explosions or attacks. But, I keep thinking every time I go out, it's going to be the time when I go something, or perhaps something will happen to us.

ROBERTSON: Also in the armored car, his colleague Rick Whitaker. Both men know this journey could cost their lives. But, they have to make it. They have to see the $200 million project their supervising.

RICK WHITAKER, USAID SENIOR TEAM LEADER: Anybody who wants to kill an American knows that they have the best chance outside the green zone.

ROBERTSON: How do you feel about that?

WHITAKER: I wish it weren't true. But I know it is true. And it is just one more reason that we have to restrict our travel.

ROBERTSON: As they make the dangerous run, two surveillance helicopters buzz overhead. Even more security than their usual weekly dashes through the city.

With road-side, suicide and car bombs a growing threat, just sitting in traffic is stressful.

WHITAKER: Oh, we've all been in meetings where people start yelling, and get very intense. And I think that's a reflection of kind of constant fear people are living under, that -- your emotions are much closer to the surface.

ROBERTSON: But, intense security takes more than a human toll, it eats into productivity.

KRETZSCHMAR: The security cost for our contractors are escalating. And since the issuance of the contracts, the costs have gone up, and the contractors are asking for relief on the cost.

ROBERTSON: No incidents on the way to the site. Even inside the compound, security remains tight. Between them, Kretzschmar and Whitaker have more than 40 years power generating experience. But, no experience prepared them for this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a truckload of cable that was due to be delivered last week. And the convoy was attacked and one of the trucks was destroyed. And we lost four reels of a very important cable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's this foundation for? Is this the control room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, this is part...

ROBERTSON: This new power plant is paid for by U.S. taxpayers. Kretzschmar and Whitaker are on their first inspection for several months.

KRETZSCHMAR: But we are making progress. But, it's amazing to me, still, when I come out here and see how we're working in this environment, bringing the material in, getting it done.

ROBERTSON: 700 Iraqi workers and a handful of overseas experts are all feeling the heat to get the job done.

KRETZSCHMAR: Just getting the guys into work, the local workers in is a hassle. It takes hours for them to clear the security every day.

ROBERTSON: Almost anywhere but Iraq, this plant would be built in a year. Here, it will take at least six months longer.

WHITAKER: The most recent high moment was getting the turbine (ph) generators in here, coming out of Jordan because transport on the roads today is iffy, and these are such big targets.

ROBERTSON (on camera): Despite the security setbacks, plant officials expect to have this, and several other power generating plants currently being built, online by the end of the summer helping supply another 1 million Iraqi homes with electricity.

(voice-over): Improving life in Iraqi communities is Kretzschmar and Whitaker's way of fighting insurgents.

WHITAKER: We're beginning to get more feedback from the groups, that, you know, somebody bad was here yesterday and we told them to leave the neighborhood because we want this project to be successful.

ROBERTSON: The inspection over, time to leave; back into the armored car; out onto the streets; the dash back to the green zone. So, why would two engineers who could work anywhere, put themselves through this?

WHITAKER: To be here when history is going on. I think that's a big attraction probably for all of us.

ROBERTSON: And, put their families through it, too.

KRETZSCHMAR: I call my wife once a day. And I always advise her, on the days that I will be out of the green zone.

ROBERTSON: What does she say?

KRETZSCHMAR: Be careful.

ROBERTSON: What do you say to her?

KRETZSHMAR: I'll do my best.

ROBERTSON: This time, best is good enough. Relief, back in the green zone. Minutes from that reassuring call home.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Well, here in the United States, truckers are paying a different kind of price. So what happens if the nation's truckers actually go on strike?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wouldn't take more than probably three days to make America stand up and take notice. Because the fact is, if you have it, a truck driver brought it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Every American depends on them. So, why are some independent truckers feeling forgotten? The human cost of free trade and soaring gas prices.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Well, if you think you're spending a lot to gas up your car or SUV, consider those who pay up to $500 or more to fill up a tank. Today's gas prices have some independent truckers talking about going on strike. Peter Viles reports from Fontana, California.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Talk about pain at the pump, try gassing up one of these rigs. That's right, $434 for a tank of gas.

CHERYL RILEY, INDEPENDENT TRUCKER: I paid as much as $650, $500.

VILES: $650?

RILEY: 650 bucks. And it's usually good for about, oh, 1200 miles.

VILES: For independent truckers like Cheryl Riley, the numbers just don't add up. Competition from big truckers is so fierce, she can't raise her rates. Her margin is down to 18 cents a mile. That is less than $10 an hour .

RILEY: It's a loss of hope. It's a loss of hope. It's like, why am I out here? You know? Why am I wasting my life, you know? When I should be able to make my truck payments, my insurance, da, da, da, da, da, and I'm losing my family life to make a living.

VILES: Owner/operator Tony Womack says it's so bad, truckers need to go on strike.

TONY WOMACK, INDEPENDENT TRUCKER: It wouldn't take more than three days to make America notice. Because the fact is, if you have it, a truck driver brought it.

VILES: Independent truckers are squeezed from all sides. Ever since NAFTA opened the boards, freight prices have been flat. Big trucking companies with lower costs can afford to underbid them. And they say nobody respects them.

RILEY: Truck drivers are dirt to a lot of people, you know? They all think their nasty, dirty, you know. And, it's wrong. It's wrong. If it wasn't for us, you guys wouldn't be eating.

VILES: Cheryl Riley figures she hasn't had a raise in 15 years. And she's working harder than ever to make ends meet.

RILEY: Like I won't go home to September, because, I'll be running cucumbers, or whatever, hopefully you know. But, I've got to stay out here to make my bills.

VILES: Peter Viles for CNN, Fontana, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Well, those who are thinking about, well, four years from today, they are asking today, will she or won't she? We heard from Condoleezza Rice when she talked about a possible presidential run in 2008. We're going to tell you what she had to say next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LIN: All right, don't expect to see Condi 2008 bumper stickers. It turns out the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today is once again ruling out a run for the presidency. On ABC's "This Week," Rice reiterated her stance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICE: I don't know how many ways to say no. So, let me just say it. I don't have any desire to run for president. I don't intend to. I won't do it. I think that...

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: You will not run for president.

RICE: I won't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right. Well, Secretary Rice told the Washington Times last week that she never wanted to run for anything. In the meantime, Asa Hutchinson has other plans. He's got a new political aspiration, he wants to run for Arkansas governor in 2006.

The former Republican congressman announced his plans yesterday saying he is committed to winning. Hutchinson resigned from his post as Homeland Security undersecretary nearly two weeks ago.

All right, so Secretary Rice won't run, Asa Hutchinson will. For a take on the political ambitions of, well, just about anybody frankly, CNN's political analyst Carlos Watson is here tonight live from New York.

CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: New York City, the Big Apple.

LIN: New York City, you traveling man.

All right, Condoleezza Rice -- you know, here she is, a rising star in the president's administration. What's your take on her saying absolutely no for 2008.

WATSON: Carol I had a couple of thoughts. One, it's interesting to see, for a president when he was a governor wasn't thought to love foreign policy, the 2 stars of his cabinet have both been his Secretaries of State: Colin Powell and now Condi Rice.

Two, you heard her say she won't run for president, she didn't say she won't run for vice president or governor or something else. And so I'd continue to hear her in that regard.

And then No. 3, the fact that there's so much interesting, not only in Condi Rice but in Hillary Clinton and others at this early stage tells me that in 2008, we may have more serious candidates for the presidency than in any time since 1988 when we had some 14 or 15 on both sides of the the aisle.

LIN: Wow. What a fray. Can you imagine that? WATSON: It's going to be serious.

I wouldn't be surprised, Carol, if ended up with to 20. Again, in part, because there will be no incumbent on either side and Dick Cheney, at least at the moment, has said he won't run.

But I think the interest around Condi Rice will end up becoming interest around Jeb Bush, interest around John McCain. You'll see this happen a lot over the next couple of years.

LIN: Good Lord. I'm going to take your word for it, because Carlos, you're calling them right these days.

You told us that domestic issues, poverty would become a big issue here, Social Security, obviously. The next buzz word for the Bush administration, President Bushel doesn't seem to be getting very far when it comes to privatizing some aspects of Social Security -- private accounts. But you say, he's got an ace up his sleeve like that gambler that Kenny Rogers was meant to be.

WATSON: You bet. You bet. You have got to know when to hold them and when to fold them. Particularly around the issue of personal accounts, or personal accounts, the president has had trouble not only wooing moderate Democrats and also some northeastern Republicans like Olympia Snowe and Lincoln Chaffee.

But you shouldn't rule out his ability to still at least get an experiment going with private accounts through something called the executive order. You remember that over the course of history, presidents have been able to pursue unilateral action to do the Louisiana Purchase, the Emancipation Proclamation, the first test of affirmative action and a whole series of other things.

And so, when all is said and done, don't be surprised to see the president pull that ace if he has to, if it doesn't get passed in Congress, And say that I want to experiment, with these private accounts with federal workers only in a very heavily regulated way. And if it happens, you heard it here first.

LIN: Oh, yeah, right. They also call it my way or the highway. We'll see what happens.

Carlos, listen, Al Sharpton, bloggers and the FEC. I don't know if that's a new sports league, a new rock band, but you got some order on that unusual combination.

WATSON: Well, you know what's interesting? Al Sharpton and the bloggers this past have both pointed up a significant new trend in American politics and policy making. When we normally think about power, we think about the Congress, we think about the president, Supreme Court, maybe the governors. But, increasingly what's really powerful are these so-called independent regulatory agencies, like the SEC, or the FCC, the FEC, lots of alphabetic names.

But basically what they do is they run important portions of the government. Al Sharpton recently has gone to the Federal Communications Commission and said, I want a 90-day ban on any rap lyrics that involved violence, or encourage violence. And it's interesting that he would chose those folks to appeal to instead of Congress or the courts. It's a sign about how powerful they are. And remember, they were the ones involved in the Janet Jackson issue.

And then secondly, you saw recently, the FEC, the Federal Elections Commission suggest that they may go after bloggers. That some bloggers are coming too close to the line in terms of being involved in partisan politics. And so that'll be interesting to see whether or not that happens.

But, again, it's a sign that, in lots of ways, whether it's where the next nuclear power plant can be, whether the FBI can go through your private bank accounts, a lot of these decisions aren't being made by Congress or the courts.

LIN: Wow. All right. Well, we better tune into the those community cable meetings, huh, and get that FEC on our agenda for primetime some Friday night. OK.

Thanks very much Carlos Watson.

WATSON: Good to see you.

LIN: You to.

All right, so, what would it take to get you to put yourself in freezing water for an entire hour? This man did just that. and we are going to tell you why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: All right, ever thought about taking up hypothermia as a hobby? Well, meet a man who has. He is a Russian who sets endurance records sitting in icy water. His head and shoulders exposed in sub freezing air. Well, in Moscow, Ryan Chilcote has the cold facts.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the Russian word for peace on his forehead and little more, Karim Diab of Russian and Syrian decent eases his way in.

His goal: beat his own 40 minute record set two years ago in protest to the Iraq war. This time, his aim? Sit still for an hour. To commemorate World War II's 60th anniversary. His coach has spent the last two years preparing.

People are always telling me the Germans, his coach says, had all the techniques for warming people up. I've studied all of them, know what they used and how they did it. But they never had the techniques we have today.

20 minutes on, the moment when most of us would die, Karim was just warming up. 40 minutes out, even the water around him started freeing, but his support staff cleared the way. Nothing, it seemed, would shatter the stone cold determination.

Walruses, as Russian fans of ice swimming are called, are hard to impress. Even they seem to be in awe.

His coach advised amateurs against trying this at home.

If someone is over-cooled, he says, and then warms back up incorrectly, you could lose them. If you put them in a tub, or give them a massage or vodka, the cold will go inside and they can cool to a dangerous temperature where they won't be able to talk or walk.

An hour after he'd started, Karim Diab triumphantly cracked a smile for the cameras. But, was speechless, trembling from the gravity of his own icy achievement.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Moscow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Good lord.

Well, you know what they say, cold hands, warm heart.

That's all the time we have for this hour.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired March 13, 2005 - 18:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL LIN, CNN ANCHOR, CNN LIVE SUNDAY: A community gathers to honor those lost from Atlanta's criminal justice system as a suspect awaits a court appearance. Also from the front lines tonight, we will go behind the scenes with American contractors charged with restoring war torn Iraq. And a deep free dip. We're going to check out a record. Too cool to believe. It is March 13 and you're watching CNN LIVE SUNDAY. Good evening. From the CNN global headquarters in Atlanta, I'm Carol Lin and here's what's happening right now in the news.
An average guy. That is how a neighbor describes gunman Terry Ratzmann. Ratzmann fatally shot seven church members before killing himself in suburban Milwaukee. Police are trying to determine a motive. We are going to have a live report from the scene in just a few minutes.

And we don't know yet well, if the biggest names in baseball will step to the plate on Capitol Hill. The chairman of the House panel holding hearings on steroids is threatening contempt proceedings if subpoenaed players don't show. Slugger Jason Giambi and pitcher Curt Schilling are among the players called to testify on Thursday.

And it's a small business world after all. The Walt Disney Company says its president will succeed Michael Eisner as CEO. Robert Iger was unanimously elected by the Disney board. He will take over when Eisner steps down September 30.

Right now, up first this hour, a city in mourning and a suspect behind bars. A day after his capture, Brian Nichols is under maximum security at a Federal prison in Atlanta. He may go before a judge as soon as tomorrow. Nichols is suspected of killing four people during a 26-hour crime spree. New details are emerging about the ordeal of the woman he allegedly took hostage at an apartment complex. Sources say Nichols saw her at a store early Saturday and followed her home. He allegedly forced his way in and tied her up. Sources say, in the hours that followed, the woman told Nichols about her daughter and said the child would be orphaned if he was killed. The woman was eventually able to leave the apartment and call 911. Police are still interviewing her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJOR BART HULSEY, CMDR, GWINNETT CO. SWAT TEAM: They are continuing to talk to the lady, make sure that her information is valid and that is has credibility while, simultaneously the officers responded to the complex. As you know, Bridgewater, if you've been out there, is a large complex. The uniform officers, once they determined that, they did a excellent job of shutting that down and making sure that he had no avenue of escape in a vehicle. They identified which building it was and the watch commander made quick decision to activate the SWAT team.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Well, in the meantime, the apartment complex where Nichols was captured, a lot of the neighbors in that complex are talking about the suspect. CNN's Elizabeth Cohen is at the apartment complex where Nichols surrendered. What more are you learning out there Elizabeth?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well actually what we learned today was from the complex where Nichols lived. At the time that he was arrested for allegedly raping his girlfriend, he didn't live here. This is where he surrendered. He lived in a condominium complex about 10 miles away from here in Sandy Springs, Georgia. The neighbors there helped answer the question, who is Brian Nichols?

And what they said is, you know what, we saw him and some of them said he was even cordial. He would say hello. He would chat while we were getting mail. He lived there for awhile alone, and, for awhile, he lived with his girlfriend. At one point, the homeowners' association board did try to evict him, but it wasn't because of him per se, it was because his pit bull had become a nuisance. The neighbors we talked to said they never perceived of Brian Nichols as being a threat of any kind.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEG ARMISTEAD, NICHOLS FORMER NEIGHBOR: I was completely amazed that any of this happened because I never would have guessed in a million years that he was capable of something like that. I mean, just - stunned, when I heard who the perpetrator was down at the courthouse. When I saw him picture and recognized him, it just blew me away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: Now, the neighbors had nothing but nice things to say about his girlfriend. They said that she was very active in the community, in fact, was a member of the home owner's association's board.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARMISTEAD: Warm, friendly, just a good, seemed like a really good girl, just seemed like a really good person, very smart, intelligence. Worked in a professional capacity, from what I understand, just very nice girl.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: Now, the neighbors said that they remember the day when Nichols was arrested for raping this girlfriend who he was living with at the condominium complex. Not then, but, a previous time before that and they said they remember, they said, there were SWAT teams everywhere. Carol?

LIN: All right. Thanks very much, Elizabeth. One man, obviously two very different personalities. Brian Nichols family and friends are shocked at the events that have transpired over the past few days, describing him as nothing but a nice and caring man. CNN's Kathleen Koch has more from Nichols' hometown of Baltimore, Maryland.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On this quiet street in northeast Baltimore where Brian Nichols grew up, there was relief that he surrendered Saturday without a fight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm glad they didn't kill him.

KOCH: Nichols attended a local Catholic school, Cardinal Gibbons High School, where he played basketball and football. His friends say what stood out was his athletic ability and his sense of humor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Laughed a lot, smiled a lot, liked to play. You know, liked to joke. I cannot recall any event or behavior from him that would be -- that would send off a warning signal this was to come, nothing, absolutely nothing.

KOCH: Nichols left Baltimore in 1989 to play football and study at Kutztown University in Pennsylvania and later Newberry College in South Carolina.

CHARLES FRANKLIN: But my mind could not comprehend how this could happen to one of our own.

KOCH: Boyhood friend and Minister Charles Franklin shared his disbelief with his congregation.

FRANKLIN: How sense (ph) this is and how tragic it is and how hone of us would have ever seen this happening to someone that we know and that is so lovable, the jokes of the neighborhood and very intelligent. You know, what point drove him to this?

KOCH: Answers are in short supply among Nichols' former neighbors.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was just a very nice kid from what I could see. I really think that, whatever the problem was, it lies somewhere way beneath what we can see, you know?

KOCH: They wait now for the inevitable court proceedings and, if convicted, the punishment of someone they once thought they knew so well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To be found guilty for the crimes, you know, he has to suffer the consequences.

KOCH: Kathleen Koch, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE) LIN: Well, the Atlanta shooting spree left several people dead. Julie Brandau was the court reporter in Nichols' rape trial. Fulton County superior court Judge Rowland Barnes was presiding over the case, and both were shot dead inside the Atlanta courthouse. Sgt. Hoyt Teasley was fatally shot outside and David Wilhelm, a U.S. immigration and customs enforcement agent was shot dead yesterday at his suburban Atlanta home. Court reporter Julie Brandau was known for a really big heart and one of Brandau's closest friends talked to me about her loss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EVELYN PARKER, COURT REPORTER: We went to concerts together, and just did special things, and, I don't have a friend to do that with anymore. I mean, she was like -- the one I could be, really myself with. And -- so, I don't have that friend, that kind of friend left.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: The anecdotes that Evelyn Parker talked about Julie Brandau are simply amazing. This court reporter was a remarkable woman. Please join me for my entire interview tonight with Evelyn Parker at 11:00 Eastern.

Also, please don't miss a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE on the Atlanta shootings tonight. Nancy Grace guest hosts and she is going to talk to some key people in the case, including the newspaper reporter allegedly car jacked by Brian Nichols. The two-hour special begins tonight at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

In the meantime, it's also called the day after in another big U.S. city. Police are trying to figure out why a man opened fire during a religious gathering in suburban Milwaukee. Deanna Durante from affiliate WITI is in Brookfield, Wisconsin. Deanna, what have you learned?

DEANNA DURANTE, WITI: Well, tonight police still say that they don't have a motive in this case. The shooter apparently had no criminal history. Right now, investigators are focusing on the last 24 hours of Terry Ratzmann's life. He is the man that police confirm tonight is the 45-year-old man who opened fire inside the Sheraton Hotel here in Brookfield yesterday afternoon, during a church service. This church group apparently came here every Saturday for the last four or five years.

Eleven people were shot. Eight people are dead. A victim who was only 10-years old is still in the hospital. She's the youngest victim in all of this. Now Ratzmann apparently stopped shooting long enough to reload his weapon. In all he fired 22 shots inside the hotel meeting room. Now we knew yesterday, police searched the house that Ratzmann shared with his mother and his sister in New Berlin. Here is what they took as evidence: bullets, to the .9 millimeter gun they say Ratzmann used in the shooting, a 22 caliber rifle and computers, three computers with encrypted files. Those computers could be key to figuring out why Ratzmann wanted to kill so many people.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF DANIEL TUSHAUS, BROOKFIELD POLICE: We have no clear motive. We have not uncovered any clear documentation as to motive. We have not found a suicide note or any documentation from the suspect to give you a clear concise motive for the shooting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DURANTE: You are looking live at the memorial that's been set up here in the Sheraton parking lot. People who had absolutely no connection to these victims have been coming by and dropping off flowers. There are crosses lined up there with the names of the victims who have been killed. Some say Ratzmann either lost his job or was about to lose his job around the time of the shooting and that could be where the computers come into play. The Waukesha County district attorney told us, the fact that the files are encrypted, that means he obviously didn't want to share what he was thinking with people. It will take a long time to go through those computers to actually get in there, see what those files are. We are also told that maybe he had a problem with one of the sermons in the past, that a few weeks ago he got up and left one of the church services and was upset. So again, investigators still have a lot to sift through right now. In most crimes, the intensive search is for a suspect. They have a suspect now but the fact that he is dead is not leading to many clues. Reporting live in Brookfield, Wisconsin, Deanna Durante for CNN.

LIN: Deanna, what about anything that the suspect said before he opened fire. There surely must be some clues about this man and why he did what he did.

DURANTE: Actually, they booked the room from 12:30 to about 3:30 for a three hour service. They say Ratzmann came in about 10, 20 minutes after the service began, didn't say a word, just started shooting.

LIN: Deanna Durante, thank you very much, our affiliate WITI.

In the meantime, a ride home from the hospital with papal proportions. Up next, the pope's latest step on the road to recovery.

And, still to come --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

Just getting the guys into work, the local workers in is a hassle, takes hours for them to clear the security to come in every day.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: You do not have to wear a uniform to be on the frontlines in Iraq. We are going to show you American civilians who are risking their lives to get Iraq back on track.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LIN: The Vatican's most influential resident is sleeping in his own bed tonight. Pope John Paul II was released from a Rome hospital today and the ride home was just a few miles. But it gave Catholic faithful along the routes some much-needed reassurance about the pope's condition. Our Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci has more on the pope's homecoming.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Flanked by his private security guards, Pope John Paul II left the Gemelli Hospital in the front seat of a silver mini van, rather than his popular glass paneled pope mobile. On this chilly evening, patients in their pajamas ventured at their balconies to get a glimpse of the ailing pontiff. A television camera inside the pope's van offered a rare perspective of the journey back to the Vatican. His motorcade drove through a delighted crowd of well wishers, many with their own stories of pain and suffering.

When he drove by, I was very moved, says Tina. I also have been very sick and to see him feeling this well, I do not mind the three hours I had to wait out here.

I have a relative who is not well, says (INAUDIBLE). I believe in his faith and I came here to pray for my mother. Hundreds more lined the streets of Rome as the pope arrived in St. Peter's Square. They too were rewarded by a papal blessing.

Earlier today, the pope appeared from his hospital window. While clearly still weak, he managed to speak publicly for the first time in weeks, alleviating concerns about his ability to speak again following his throat surgery. Thank you for your visit, he told the crowd of pilgrims gathered underneath his window, adding, have a nice Sunday. His message was beamed live to St. Peter's Square, where tourists and pilgrims alike watched his appearance on giant television screens.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a opportunity to listen to him, yes. And he sounded a little weak. But, we're all praying for him and we hope for a quick recovery.

VINCI: Others, clearly unaffected by his ability to speak much.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are different ways in which to communicate and I think it's clear that his mind is still engaging and very much at work and that's the most important part right now.

VINCI: Even if the pope is now back at the Vatican, he still needs time to fully recover. So, for the first time in his 26-year papacy, the pope delegated senior church officials to preside over nearly all of the events planned for the Easter week, which begins this coming Sunday. Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Coming up, we're going to get back to justice under fire. The Atlanta courthouse shooting is grabbing national headlines, but, it's certainly not the first time someone has opened fire in a courtroom. So I'm going to talk with a New York judge whose own courtroom was erupted in violence. He lived to talk about it.

And still ahead, if you hate filling up your SUV, imagine the gas bill for a big rig. We're going to show you the toll rising gas prices and what they're having - the toll they're having on mom and pop truckers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Friday's Atlanta shootings are raising new questions about courthouse security. Police say Brian Nichols was able to grab a gun from a deputy before killing Judge Rowland Barnes and a court reporter and another deputy. Well, a colleague of Judge Barnes says he has been warned about the dangers of guns in the courtroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JUDGE T. JACKSON BEDFORD, FULTON CO. GA SUPERIOR COURT: I had a sheriff, a bailiff that worked with me for eight years that I trusted very much and he would tell me, he said, judge, he said, if there are no guns in the courtroom, I can handle it. But he said, if there is a gun in the courtroom, whoever it belongs to, it's very dangerous.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: That was when I asked Judge Bedford in my interview with him about whether he would be willing to carry a gun into the courtroom and that was his response in essence saying no.

Now my next guest knows all too well about this issue. New York supreme court Judge Ronald Zweibel had a defendant lunge for an officer's gun in his courtroom. Well, we are joined now by the judge to talk about his experience and this whole issue of whether guns do belong in the courtroom and what can be done to protect judges. Good evening to you, judge. Thanks for being here.

JUDGE RONALD ZWEIBEL, NEW YORK SUPREME COURT: Good evening.

LIN: I don't know if you heard Judge Bedford's remarks here. He is a superior court judge here in Atlanta, had worked with Judge Barnes who was murdered on Friday. And his position was that anybody who has a gun in the courtroom has the potential to add to danger in the courtroom. Do you agree with that given what you went through and we are going to go through some of the details of your case?

ZWEIBEL: I very much do, I do agree with that. I don't think there's a need for judges to carry guns in the courtroom. In New York, we have a very fine trained staff of court officers in the courtroom at all times. There are at least four court officers in my courtroom at any one given time and we feel very secure.

LIN: Well, let's talk about what happened to you. There was a verdict that went down. It was a guilty verdict and, as I understand it, the defendant lunged for a deputy's gun inside the courtroom? ZWEIBEL: That's correct. As I was discharging a jury, after a verdict, the defendant jumped out of his seat and grabbed the sergeant and attempted to wrest the gun from his possession. The gun went off while it was still in the holster. The court officers quickly brought the defendant to the ground, and...

LIN: But, wait, it ricocheted and didn't the bullet embed in the wall behind you?

ZWEIBEL: It did. The gun went off while it was still in the holster. The bullet ricocheted off of the floor and hit the wall near where I was seated.

LIN: You could have been killed. In a situation like that, what did you do to defend yourself, I mean not even for that split second, did you wish to have a weapon in your hand, should things have gone differently with that defendant?

ZWEIBEL: Not at all. The court officers quickly brought the defendant down to the ground. I rushed off the bench immediately and I ran over to where they had the defendant down on the ground and I placed my hands on over his hand with his hand - with his finger still in the trigger, on the trigger and I secured the gun until the court personnel were able to remove the gun from him.

LIN: Good heavens. It sounds like something out of a reality TV show gone awry. So, has the security in your courtroom, did it change as a result of that? Or do you write it off as a situation that could happen to anyone at any time?

ZWEIBEL: Well, we certainly did a security reassessment after that incident and we do have heightened security in our courtrooms. We are much more vigilant, perhaps now than we ever were in the past and that is the key to it, to be extremely vigilant. What happened in Atlanta, I don't think it could happen at all in New York. We, first of all, do not bring prisoners from one building to another with a single officer. As a matter of fact, prisoners are brought into the building in a secured van, brought up, through the pen system, directly into the courtroom, and they are brought into the courtroom with handcuffs on.

LIN: In front of the jury that has to make a decision perhaps, in a case that may involve life or death.

ZWEIBEL: Well, the handcuffs are removed before the jury is brought into the courtroom.

LIN: OK, because that is one of the concerns here and in this particular case, too, that one of the jurors in Brian Nichols case may have seen him with cuffs on and that Judge Barnes had expressed concern about that.

ZWEIBEL: Well, that should never happen.

LIN: All right. Well, the woman, the female deputy, who's been critically wounded, still hospitalized, she was no demure woman. She was middle aged, but 5'10" and pretty strong, but again operating on her own, escorting that suspect into the courtroom. Judge Zweibel, thank you very much for sharing your experiences.

ZWEIBEL: You're very welcome.

LIN: Once again, we want to remind you about a special edition of LARRY KING LIVE on the Atlanta shootings tonight. Nancy Grace is going to guest hosting. The two-hour special begins tonight at 9:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

In the meantime, American civilians on the frontlines in Iraq. Up next, we are going to show you what it's like for engineers who risk their lives just to do their jobs.

Plus, why the Bush administration is feeling pretty good about Syria's recent actions, at least for now.

And, still to come, putting your body to the test. Why this man wanted to stay in freezing water for an entire hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Welcome back. Here's a quick look at what's happening right now in the news.

A minister and his teenage son are among those killed by gunman in suburban Milwaukee. Police say church member Terry Ratzmann started firing during a service, killing seven people and then himself. Neighbors say he was a quiet man who suffered from depression for years.

And, here in Atlanta, authorities say Brian Nichols could appear in federal court as soon as tomorrow. He's suspected of killing a judge, and a court reporter, and a deputy, and a federal agent. When cornered by police SWAT team yesterday, Nichols surrendered.

Pope John Paul II is back at his apartment. He left the hospital today, 18 days after undergoing throat surgery. The Vatican says he will decide what role he will play in Holy Week activities which begin a week from today.

And it's seen as a positive sign on a sticky international issue: Syrian troops on the move out of Lebanon. Now, it's not the full withdrawal President Bush and others had called for but, it is a first step. So, joining me with more details, our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux.

Give us some perspective on this, Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, of course as you know, this is really under intense pressure. That Syrian officials say they have been making loud pronouncements that they are fully going to withdraw their military out of Lebanon. Now today, U.S. officials said that really, it is not the words that matter so much, but the actions. But, there are some U.S. officials who are acknowledging, when you look at the actions on the in Lebanon, it does give them a sense of hope.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): Syrian troops are starting to move out of Lebanon. Nearly one third of the 15,000 posted there now gone western diplomatic sources tell CNN. Crossing the border, they arrived to a rousing welcome home.

The Bush administration says a welcome first step, but far from meeting the U.S. demand for complete and immediate withdrawal.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: It is positive that Syria would begin to withdraw its forces out of Lebanon not just to the border. But we are going to continue to press for full compliance with resolution 1559.

MALVEAUX: U.N. Envoy Terje Roed-Larsen told CNN that Syrian's president Bashar al-Assad assured him that the remainder of Syria's military and intelligence could be withdrawn by April 7 in plenty of time to clear the way for Lebanon's May elections. On this day, cautious optimism from the Bush administration.

STEPHEN HADLEY, NATL. SECURITY ADVISER: I think we have to take him at his word, but as I said in my earlier answer, what we need to see action and deeds, not just words.

MALVEAUX: But in southern Lebanon, tens of thousands demonstrated in support of Syria. The protest was organized by Hezbollah, a group that the U.S. maintains is a terrorist organization, but one many Lebanese and Syrians say, the U.S. will have to deal with.

RICE: Our view of Hezbollah has not changed. That it is, indeed, a terrorist organization.

BOUTHAINA SHAABAN, SYRIAN CABINET MINISTER: Hezbollah is not a Lebanese militia, Hezbollah is a political party that has 13 (ph) members in parliament. It is a very popular and it is a very important political party...

MALVEAUX: But U.S. officials say free democratic elections in Lebanon will weaken those parties like Hezbollah that use violence to maintain control.

One of the challenges for that new government will be how to deal with those elements, if any, that continue to take the path of violence and terrorism.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Now tomorrow, of course, really recognized (ph) marks the one month anniversary of the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri, of course. This was really the impetus, the trigger, for the Lebanese movement, the opposition movement. The Bush administration believes that it is part of a larger phenomenon that is continuing in the Middle East, and that is the push for democracy -- Carol.

MALVEAUX: All right. Thanks very much. Suzanne Malveaux, live at the White House.

We are used to talking about the dangers in the Middle East.

And, here we have some more bad news about civilians who are trying to rebuild Iraq. Two American security contractors have been killed in a road side bombing in Iraq. That attack happened yesterday, south of Baghdad. The victims were employed by Blackwater Security, which provides services for the U.S. Embassy. A third contractor was wounded.

And at this point, every week we try to bring you the more personal stories from the frontlines. We are going to focus on contractors and the dangers they encounter every day in Iraq. CNN's Nic Robertson has a look at the day in the life of two U.S. engineers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): The last moments of safety before leaving the green zone.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we do encounter any problems or anything on the way, come under attack, or something like that, we are going to stay in the vehicle.

ROBERTSON: Engineer Jon Kretzschmar is on his way to inspect a U.S.-funded power plant.

JON KRETZSCHMAR, ELECTRICAL POWER ADVISER: I haven't physically witnessed any explosions or attacks. But, I keep thinking every time I go out, it's going to be the time when I go something, or perhaps something will happen to us.

ROBERTSON: Also in the armored car, his colleague Rick Whitaker. Both men know this journey could cost their lives. But, they have to make it. They have to see the $200 million project their supervising.

RICK WHITAKER, USAID SENIOR TEAM LEADER: Anybody who wants to kill an American knows that they have the best chance outside the green zone.

ROBERTSON: How do you feel about that?

WHITAKER: I wish it weren't true. But I know it is true. And it is just one more reason that we have to restrict our travel.

ROBERTSON: As they make the dangerous run, two surveillance helicopters buzz overhead. Even more security than their usual weekly dashes through the city.

With road-side, suicide and car bombs a growing threat, just sitting in traffic is stressful.

WHITAKER: Oh, we've all been in meetings where people start yelling, and get very intense. And I think that's a reflection of kind of constant fear people are living under, that -- your emotions are much closer to the surface.

ROBERTSON: But, intense security takes more than a human toll, it eats into productivity.

KRETZSCHMAR: The security cost for our contractors are escalating. And since the issuance of the contracts, the costs have gone up, and the contractors are asking for relief on the cost.

ROBERTSON: No incidents on the way to the site. Even inside the compound, security remains tight. Between them, Kretzschmar and Whitaker have more than 40 years power generating experience. But, no experience prepared them for this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had a truckload of cable that was due to be delivered last week. And the convoy was attacked and one of the trucks was destroyed. And we lost four reels of a very important cable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's this foundation for? Is this the control room.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, this is part...

ROBERTSON: This new power plant is paid for by U.S. taxpayers. Kretzschmar and Whitaker are on their first inspection for several months.

KRETZSCHMAR: But we are making progress. But, it's amazing to me, still, when I come out here and see how we're working in this environment, bringing the material in, getting it done.

ROBERTSON: 700 Iraqi workers and a handful of overseas experts are all feeling the heat to get the job done.

KRETZSCHMAR: Just getting the guys into work, the local workers in is a hassle. It takes hours for them to clear the security every day.

ROBERTSON: Almost anywhere but Iraq, this plant would be built in a year. Here, it will take at least six months longer.

WHITAKER: The most recent high moment was getting the turbine (ph) generators in here, coming out of Jordan because transport on the roads today is iffy, and these are such big targets.

ROBERTSON (on camera): Despite the security setbacks, plant officials expect to have this, and several other power generating plants currently being built, online by the end of the summer helping supply another 1 million Iraqi homes with electricity.

(voice-over): Improving life in Iraqi communities is Kretzschmar and Whitaker's way of fighting insurgents.

WHITAKER: We're beginning to get more feedback from the groups, that, you know, somebody bad was here yesterday and we told them to leave the neighborhood because we want this project to be successful.

ROBERTSON: The inspection over, time to leave; back into the armored car; out onto the streets; the dash back to the green zone. So, why would two engineers who could work anywhere, put themselves through this?

WHITAKER: To be here when history is going on. I think that's a big attraction probably for all of us.

ROBERTSON: And, put their families through it, too.

KRETZSCHMAR: I call my wife once a day. And I always advise her, on the days that I will be out of the green zone.

ROBERTSON: What does she say?

KRETZSCHMAR: Be careful.

ROBERTSON: What do you say to her?

KRETZSHMAR: I'll do my best.

ROBERTSON: This time, best is good enough. Relief, back in the green zone. Minutes from that reassuring call home.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Well, here in the United States, truckers are paying a different kind of price. So what happens if the nation's truckers actually go on strike?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It wouldn't take more than probably three days to make America stand up and take notice. Because the fact is, if you have it, a truck driver brought it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: Every American depends on them. So, why are some independent truckers feeling forgotten? The human cost of free trade and soaring gas prices.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: Well, if you think you're spending a lot to gas up your car or SUV, consider those who pay up to $500 or more to fill up a tank. Today's gas prices have some independent truckers talking about going on strike. Peter Viles reports from Fontana, California.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Talk about pain at the pump, try gassing up one of these rigs. That's right, $434 for a tank of gas.

CHERYL RILEY, INDEPENDENT TRUCKER: I paid as much as $650, $500.

VILES: $650?

RILEY: 650 bucks. And it's usually good for about, oh, 1200 miles.

VILES: For independent truckers like Cheryl Riley, the numbers just don't add up. Competition from big truckers is so fierce, she can't raise her rates. Her margin is down to 18 cents a mile. That is less than $10 an hour .

RILEY: It's a loss of hope. It's a loss of hope. It's like, why am I out here? You know? Why am I wasting my life, you know? When I should be able to make my truck payments, my insurance, da, da, da, da, da, and I'm losing my family life to make a living.

VILES: Owner/operator Tony Womack says it's so bad, truckers need to go on strike.

TONY WOMACK, INDEPENDENT TRUCKER: It wouldn't take more than three days to make America notice. Because the fact is, if you have it, a truck driver brought it.

VILES: Independent truckers are squeezed from all sides. Ever since NAFTA opened the boards, freight prices have been flat. Big trucking companies with lower costs can afford to underbid them. And they say nobody respects them.

RILEY: Truck drivers are dirt to a lot of people, you know? They all think their nasty, dirty, you know. And, it's wrong. It's wrong. If it wasn't for us, you guys wouldn't be eating.

VILES: Cheryl Riley figures she hasn't had a raise in 15 years. And she's working harder than ever to make ends meet.

RILEY: Like I won't go home to September, because, I'll be running cucumbers, or whatever, hopefully you know. But, I've got to stay out here to make my bills.

VILES: Peter Viles for CNN, Fontana, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Well, those who are thinking about, well, four years from today, they are asking today, will she or won't she? We heard from Condoleezza Rice when she talked about a possible presidential run in 2008. We're going to tell you what she had to say next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) LIN: All right, don't expect to see Condi 2008 bumper stickers. It turns out the Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today is once again ruling out a run for the presidency. On ABC's "This Week," Rice reiterated her stance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICE: I don't know how many ways to say no. So, let me just say it. I don't have any desire to run for president. I don't intend to. I won't do it. I think that...

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: You will not run for president.

RICE: I won't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIN: All right. Well, Secretary Rice told the Washington Times last week that she never wanted to run for anything. In the meantime, Asa Hutchinson has other plans. He's got a new political aspiration, he wants to run for Arkansas governor in 2006.

The former Republican congressman announced his plans yesterday saying he is committed to winning. Hutchinson resigned from his post as Homeland Security undersecretary nearly two weeks ago.

All right, so Secretary Rice won't run, Asa Hutchinson will. For a take on the political ambitions of, well, just about anybody frankly, CNN's political analyst Carlos Watson is here tonight live from New York.

CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: New York City, the Big Apple.

LIN: New York City, you traveling man.

All right, Condoleezza Rice -- you know, here she is, a rising star in the president's administration. What's your take on her saying absolutely no for 2008.

WATSON: Carol I had a couple of thoughts. One, it's interesting to see, for a president when he was a governor wasn't thought to love foreign policy, the 2 stars of his cabinet have both been his Secretaries of State: Colin Powell and now Condi Rice.

Two, you heard her say she won't run for president, she didn't say she won't run for vice president or governor or something else. And so I'd continue to hear her in that regard.

And then No. 3, the fact that there's so much interesting, not only in Condi Rice but in Hillary Clinton and others at this early stage tells me that in 2008, we may have more serious candidates for the presidency than in any time since 1988 when we had some 14 or 15 on both sides of the the aisle.

LIN: Wow. What a fray. Can you imagine that? WATSON: It's going to be serious.

I wouldn't be surprised, Carol, if ended up with to 20. Again, in part, because there will be no incumbent on either side and Dick Cheney, at least at the moment, has said he won't run.

But I think the interest around Condi Rice will end up becoming interest around Jeb Bush, interest around John McCain. You'll see this happen a lot over the next couple of years.

LIN: Good Lord. I'm going to take your word for it, because Carlos, you're calling them right these days.

You told us that domestic issues, poverty would become a big issue here, Social Security, obviously. The next buzz word for the Bush administration, President Bushel doesn't seem to be getting very far when it comes to privatizing some aspects of Social Security -- private accounts. But you say, he's got an ace up his sleeve like that gambler that Kenny Rogers was meant to be.

WATSON: You bet. You bet. You have got to know when to hold them and when to fold them. Particularly around the issue of personal accounts, or personal accounts, the president has had trouble not only wooing moderate Democrats and also some northeastern Republicans like Olympia Snowe and Lincoln Chaffee.

But you shouldn't rule out his ability to still at least get an experiment going with private accounts through something called the executive order. You remember that over the course of history, presidents have been able to pursue unilateral action to do the Louisiana Purchase, the Emancipation Proclamation, the first test of affirmative action and a whole series of other things.

And so, when all is said and done, don't be surprised to see the president pull that ace if he has to, if it doesn't get passed in Congress, And say that I want to experiment, with these private accounts with federal workers only in a very heavily regulated way. And if it happens, you heard it here first.

LIN: Oh, yeah, right. They also call it my way or the highway. We'll see what happens.

Carlos, listen, Al Sharpton, bloggers and the FEC. I don't know if that's a new sports league, a new rock band, but you got some order on that unusual combination.

WATSON: Well, you know what's interesting? Al Sharpton and the bloggers this past have both pointed up a significant new trend in American politics and policy making. When we normally think about power, we think about the Congress, we think about the president, Supreme Court, maybe the governors. But, increasingly what's really powerful are these so-called independent regulatory agencies, like the SEC, or the FCC, the FEC, lots of alphabetic names.

But basically what they do is they run important portions of the government. Al Sharpton recently has gone to the Federal Communications Commission and said, I want a 90-day ban on any rap lyrics that involved violence, or encourage violence. And it's interesting that he would chose those folks to appeal to instead of Congress or the courts. It's a sign about how powerful they are. And remember, they were the ones involved in the Janet Jackson issue.

And then secondly, you saw recently, the FEC, the Federal Elections Commission suggest that they may go after bloggers. That some bloggers are coming too close to the line in terms of being involved in partisan politics. And so that'll be interesting to see whether or not that happens.

But, again, it's a sign that, in lots of ways, whether it's where the next nuclear power plant can be, whether the FBI can go through your private bank accounts, a lot of these decisions aren't being made by Congress or the courts.

LIN: Wow. All right. Well, we better tune into the those community cable meetings, huh, and get that FEC on our agenda for primetime some Friday night. OK.

Thanks very much Carlos Watson.

WATSON: Good to see you.

LIN: You to.

All right, so, what would it take to get you to put yourself in freezing water for an entire hour? This man did just that. and we are going to tell you why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LIN: All right, ever thought about taking up hypothermia as a hobby? Well, meet a man who has. He is a Russian who sets endurance records sitting in icy water. His head and shoulders exposed in sub freezing air. Well, in Moscow, Ryan Chilcote has the cold facts.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the Russian word for peace on his forehead and little more, Karim Diab of Russian and Syrian decent eases his way in.

His goal: beat his own 40 minute record set two years ago in protest to the Iraq war. This time, his aim? Sit still for an hour. To commemorate World War II's 60th anniversary. His coach has spent the last two years preparing.

People are always telling me the Germans, his coach says, had all the techniques for warming people up. I've studied all of them, know what they used and how they did it. But they never had the techniques we have today.

20 minutes on, the moment when most of us would die, Karim was just warming up. 40 minutes out, even the water around him started freeing, but his support staff cleared the way. Nothing, it seemed, would shatter the stone cold determination.

Walruses, as Russian fans of ice swimming are called, are hard to impress. Even they seem to be in awe.

His coach advised amateurs against trying this at home.

If someone is over-cooled, he says, and then warms back up incorrectly, you could lose them. If you put them in a tub, or give them a massage or vodka, the cold will go inside and they can cool to a dangerous temperature where they won't be able to talk or walk.

An hour after he'd started, Karim Diab triumphantly cracked a smile for the cameras. But, was speechless, trembling from the gravity of his own icy achievement.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, Moscow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LIN: Good lord.

Well, you know what they say, cold hands, warm heart.

That's all the time we have for this hour.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com