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American Morning
Taken Hostage at Gunpoint; Huge Anti-Syrian Crowd Gathering in Beirut, Lebanon
Aired March 14, 2005 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Taken hostage at gunpoint -- one woman's amazing night with a fugitive murder suspect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEY SMITH, FORMER HOSTAGE: And then he took his hat off and he said, "Now do you know who I am?"
And I said, "Yes. I know who you are. Please don't hurt me. Just please don't hurt me."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: The man suspected of four murders in Atlanta says he was led to his angel. Her story on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
O'BRIEN: Good morning.
Welcome back, everybody.
Bill Hemmer has got the day off.
Jack Cafferty filling in for him this morning -- good morning, Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
A lot to tell you about this morning, as we move into the second hour here.
Ashley Smith, the woman in Atlanta, Georgia, basically handed over a quadruple murder suspect on a silver platter to police. Now she's telling her story of what happened after Brian Nichols grabbed her at her apartment door and held her hostage overnight.
O'BRIEN: She not only kept her cool, she also got to know the man. She made him pancakes in the morning. They talked about their faith and god. And she also waited for a chance to escape.
We've got her amazing story and we're going to hear it in his own words, coming up in just a few moments -- Mr. Toobin, you're covering the legal aspects of this case today.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.
Indeed.
And our Question of the Day is do the Atlanta courthouse shootings change your opinion about the death penalty? E-mail us at am@cnn.com.
Jack, one of the e-mails recently just said they feel like they're cheating on you by answering an e-mail to me today.
CAFFERTY: That's OK, Jeff.
They've got my permission to write in.
TOOBIN: That's OK.
CAFFERTY: That's all right.
O'BRIEN: Jack's fine with it. You can go ahead and e-mail.
CAFFERTY: But don't make it a habit. I mean don't start writing to him this time.
O'BRIEN: That's right.
Thanks, Jeff.
TOOBIN: Indeed.
O'BRIEN: Let's get right to Carol.
She's got the headlines -- good morning.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Good morning to all of you.
Now in the news, a U.S. military helicopter in northern Iraq coming under fire. Military forces say the chopper attacked and destroyed three insurgent vehicles in the city of Mosul. At least two civilians were killed in that incident.
The attack comes as a House committee is meeting in Washington this morning, working on plans to create a new Iraqi security force.
And more details could be released today about why a Wisconsin man fatally shot seven people and then killed himself during a courthouse service. Friends and relatives gathered at a candlelight vigil to remember the victims. Sources say Terry Ratzmann may have been upset over a previous sermon and he was on the verge of losing his job. A news conference is set for this afternoon. Of course, we'll take you there when that happens.
In about two hours, a man accused of plotting to assassinate President Bush will be arraigned in federal court. Ahmed Abu Ali is expected to plead not guilty. The 23-year-old is charged with providing support to al Qaeda and conspiring to assassinate the president. His lawyers say the government obtained his confession through torture.
And today is the deadline for major league baseball to hand over records subpoenaed by Congress. The commissioner's office says it was doing everything "humanly possible" to give the government everything it wants. The Congressional committee wants to see documents about the league's new drug testing program, including results. Seven active and former players have been subpoenaed to testify on Thursday and it will be interesting to see if all seven actually show up.
O'BRIEN: Do you really want to be in contempt would be the question there?
COSTELLO: I don't know.
O'BRIEN: Interesting.
COSTELLO: It'll be interesting.
O'BRIEN: Thanks, Carol.
Well, a quick trip to the store for cigarettes turned into a long night with a gunman for 26-year-old Ashley Smith. Smith says Atlanta courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols pushed his way into her suburban Atlanta apartment, where he bound and gagged her as she begged for her life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEY SMITH, FORMER HOSTAGE: I told him that I was supposed to go see my little girl the next morning at 10:00 and I asked him if I could go see her. And he told me no. My husband died four years ago and I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning, that if he didn't let me go, she would be really upset.
He still told me no. But I could kind of feel that he started to know who I was and he said, "Maybe, maybe I'll let you go, just maybe. Let's see how things go."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: But by the time it was all over, Smith had cooked a pancake breakfast for Nichols. She said she did what she had to do in order to gain his trust. Nichols finally did let her go. And that's when she called 911.
We're going to hear much more ahead from Ashley Smith this morning -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: It took just minutes from the time police say that Brian Nichols overpowered the guard escorting him in the courthouse to the time he was out of the courthouse. A judge and a court reporter dead on the eighth floor. A police deputy dead down in the street. It would then take more than a day for authorities to finally get their man.
Here's a report from CNN's Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): 9:00 a.m. Friday, Fulton County Courthouse in downtown Atlanta -- 6'1" Brian Nichols overpowers 51-year-old Fulton County Sheriff's Deputy Cynthia Hall. He grabs her gun. She is critically injured in the scuffle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody off the sidewalk!
KAYE: About 9:15 a.m., Nichols wrestles a second gun away from another deputy, slips into the courtroom through Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes' private chambers and shoots him dead. Nichols then shoots and kills court reporter Julie Ann Brandau. He flees down eight flights of stairs, shooting and killing 43-year-old Fulton County Deputy Sergeant Hoyt Teasley outside.
9:30 a.m. -- Nichols hijacks a number of vehicles in downtown Atlanta, including a tow truck, before pistol-whipping "AJC" newspaper reporter Don O'Briant and taking his 1997 green Honda Accord.
DON O'BRIANT, "ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION": And he pulls the gun and says, "Give me your keys." And I don't give them to him.
And he says, "Give me the keys or I'll kill you."
KAYE: Police warn the public to be on the lookout for O'Briant's Honda.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last known vehicle is a 1997 Honda Accord.
KAYE: About that same time, a security camera inside a garage captures Nichols wearing what appears to be O'Briant's blazer. He casually walks down the steps, then takes the commuter rail to an upscale Atlanta neighborhood eight miles from the courthouse.
10:40 p.m. Friday -- a couple is assaulted near the same subway station where Nichols gets off.
11:30 p.m. Friday -- someone notices the green Honda parked in the same garage where it had been stolen, only on a different floor. Police view the garage's security camera tape.
CHIEF RICHARD PENNINGTON, ATLANTA POLICE: Remember, we still thought he was in the car. So we had no reason to close down MARTA, because we thought he was still in the Honda.
KAYE: 2:30 a.m. Saturday -- Nichols takes a woman hostage in Gwinnett County, northeast of Atlanta. She was returning from buying cigarettes at a convenience store. About four hours later, construction workers find the body of David Wilhelm, a United States Customs agent. His gun, badge and truck are missing.
9:50 a.m. Saturday -- seven hours after taking a woman hostage, Nichols lets her go. She quickly calls 911.
CHIEF CHARLES WALTERS, GWINNETT COUNTY POLICE: She was able to get out of the apartment and call us. We were -- we activated our SWAT team.
KAYE: Nichols waves a white t-shirt outside the apartment window and surrenders to police. As he's taken away, there is celebration mixed with relief. The manhunt that began 26 hours earlier is over.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
CAFFERTY: Nichols is currently being held in a federal penitentiary in Atlanta on a firearms possession charge. The Fulton County D.A. says he plans to file more serious charges, including murder, against Nichols within the next 30 days -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Well, at the time of the murders, Nichols was on trial for rape.
Barry Hazen is Nichols' lawyer in that case.
He joins us this morning.
Nice to see you.
Thanks for coming in to talk to us.
BARRY HAZEN, NICHOLS' RAPE TRIAL ATTORNEY: Good morning.
You're quite welcome.
O'BRIEN: How had he been in the courtroom with you in the days prior to the shooting? Was he aggressive? Was he defiant and angry?
HAZEN: I never saw Brian Nichols exhibit any aggressive behavior, either in the months leading up to the trial or during the trial. In fact, during the course of the second trial, if anything, he began to be more humorous, more easygoing and...
O'BRIEN: Respectful?
HAZEN: He was always respectful to me and to anyone else who was around him when I was in his presence.
O'BRIEN: You were not in the court that morning.
HAZEN: No. I'm very lucky. It was the one morning in Atlanta that was a nice day and I decided to walk to the courthouse as opposed to drive, and ended up being about a half a block from the courthouse when this incident happened.
O'BRIEN: So when you hear it's Brian Nichols who's believed to be on this rampage, as his attorney in this case, and you know that the judge has been shot, that a court reporter has been shot, that a deputy has been shot and that a second deputy has been shot, what was going through your mind?
HAZEN: Well, one officer said to me that there was a suspect and they didn't know who it was. Once I had heard it was Judge Barnes, I knew who it was. And I made my presence known to the police on the line and they took me upstairs and I gave them whatever information I had about possibly helping to track him down.
O'BRIEN: Because Judge Barnes was very concerned about security. In the days previous to the shooting, Brian Nichols was found with metal shanks, one in each shoe.
HAZEN: It was actually -- yes. The shooting was on Friday and these metal objects were discovered on Wednesday, and it was brought to our attention Thursday morning in a meeting with Judge Barnes.
O'BRIEN: And the judge was concerned about security in his courtroom then?
HAZEN: Yes. The judge indicated that there would be more security in the courtroom. But he -- we discussed this with a focus predominantly on the moment that a verdict came in, if there was a verdict. We really didn't think there would be an explosion prior to the time that the trial was over and the jury began deliberating.
O'BRIEN: He was more concerned about your security, really.
HAZEN: He was, and that was the ironic thing. As we ended that meeting, the judge expressed the opinion that the people in the courtroom who would be most vulnerable would be the defense attorney, for two reasons. One, because it's the defense attorney sitting in closest proximity to the defendant. And secondly, because he thought that disgruntled defendants probably don't like prosecutors anyway, believe judges are against them to begin with, but if a case is not going the way a defendant wants, it's the lawyer's fault and the anger would be directed toward that person's lawyer.
O'BRIEN: Was there increased security that was noticeable, to your mind, when you went into court that -- or in the court on Thursday? And was there any that you're aware of on that Friday?
HAZEN: Well, I never got there Friday, fortunately. But on Thursday, after the meeting, there was one additional deputy, a female, who sat mostly in the back of the courtroom. So there were three deputies altogether in the courtroom. But, of course, the problem here is that the outburst didn't take place in the courtroom, it took place while he was being escorted from the lockup area in a separate building to this older building, which had no lockup area. That's where the attack apparently took place.
O'BRIEN: It seems like a litany of problems. One, should deputies who are dealing with prisoners have guns? Two, it looks like he is alleged to have run through the judge's chambers and right into the courthouse. No doors ever locking or blocking his or any criminal, frankly, or potential criminal's way into there.
What do you think about all these security issues? HAZEN: Well, part of the problem -- of course, we're talking in retrospect -- really is Judge Barnes' personality. This was a very warm, open man who always had, figuratively and literally, an open door policy. He actually had a sign on his door that said, "Open."
All the other judges, which are in the separate building, require that you go through security and you have to be buzzed in and that kind of thing. Judge Barnes wasn't that kind of a man. He welcomed people. Of course, no one knew this would happen.
The other problem is that this old building does not have a lockup facility on the floor. You actually have to parade a defendant directly through the public area where jurors congregate prior to going into the jury room. And my guess is that the deputy did not want to risk Mr. Nichols being seen in handcuffs because there probably were jurors either there or about to arrive for trial that day.
There had also been an incident two days before, where Mr. Nichols complained to the judge about a juror possibly seeing him while he was being brought back to the courtroom after a lunch break.
O'BRIEN: Is it your sense he was manipulating the system, then? He said I don't want the jurors to see me in handcuffs, take the cuffs off, don't parade me through in cuffs?
HAZEN: Well, certainly looking back, that's a possibility. I don't know for sure. And at the time, we never thought anything about that. We thought we were making a legitimate inquiry into something that he had a right to inquire about.
O'BRIEN: A terrible tragedy.
HAZEN: It is.
O'BRIEN: Barry Hazen, Nichols' attorney in the rape charges.
Thank you very much for your time this morning.
It's nice to talk to you.
HAZEN: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Jack.
CAFFERTY: Thanks, Soledad.
A huge anti-Syrian crowd gathering in Beirut, Lebanon right now. It is one month since former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was assassinated, which was the event that put the pressure on Syria to get out of Lebanon.
Brent Sadler is live in the middle of it all in Beirut -- Brent, what's the purpose of this demonstration today?
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Jack. This is a massive show of support for the anti-Syrian elements within Lebanese society. I'm going to give you a very quick live walk about from our viewpoint up here to give you a size of this unprecedented crowd of Lebanese, stretching way beyond Martyrs Square, which is where the former prime minister, Rafik Hariri, is buried.
This demonstration really called as a counter-rally to one called by Hezbollah last Tuesday, which reached about half a million people. I'm going to walk you through our position here, just to give you an idea of the scale. Here it is from another side on our building here. The organizers of this are aiming for a one million protest march here demanding the immediate withdrawal of Syrian troops and an ending of the way that Syria has dominated this smaller neighbor.
If they reach a million, think about this, Jack, that's perhaps a quarter of the entire population of Lebanon. This is a massive rally, they say, for independence and democracy in the heart of the Middle East -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Unbelievable.
Brent Sadler live in Beirut.
I guess it's OK as long as they don't all show up on the same day.
A quick check of the weather.
Chad Myers at the CNN Center in Atlanta -- Chad.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Good morning, Jack.
We just want to check the airports now. All acting well so far. Expecting some delays in Atlanta with low cloud cover; maybe some through Denver with some light deicing. Other than that, the rest of the country looks great.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAFFERTY: Thank you, Chad.
The U.S. has an image problem in the Middle East. Will the president bring in an old friend to tackle the problem? And how successful will she be? We'll take a look at that coming up.
O'BRIEN: Also, we're going to hear more from Ashley Smith. That 26-year-old single mother shares her chilling ordeal with the murder suspect, Brian Nichols.
That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAFFERTY: It's a tough job and the president apparently wants a trusted adviser to do it. Reports say Karen Hughes will be nominated for a State Department post. Her main overseas mission, a diplomatic makeover.
Joining us to talk more about that and some other things, in Miami, Democratic consultant Victor Kamber. And in Washington, Cliff May, former RNC communications director, now with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
Cliff, this has been tried before, trying to polish the image of the United States in the Middle East.
What does Karen bring to the plate that her predecessors did not, because it's met with -- to be charitable -- only limited success thus far?
CLIFF MAY, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Yes, it's a very important job. It's about telling America's story abroad, in the Middle East, importantly; everywhere else, as well; and about explaining America's policies. I don't think this is an impossible task. Essentially, America's policy right now is to spread arena -- is to spread freedom and to push back tyranny.
But since the late 1990s, we haven't had a United States Information Agency. That agency was disestablished in the late 1990s. Now, Karen has to find the right ways to get the message out to people in the world that we're going to support the democracy activists from Beirut, as we just saw with Brent Sadler, and throughout the world.
CAFFERTY: Victor, there's a saying that a really good salesman can sell snow to the Eskimos. There is some question about whether this policy of the United States is a saleable commodity in that part of the world.
What do you think?
VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Well, I think that's the issue. I think Karen Hughes is probably very talented. She's good at public relations. That's her forte. That's what she comes out. She's bright. She's articulate. She's not going to set policy, but she understand this administration's approach. She understands the president. He can begin a sentence, she can finish it. They have that kind of a relationship.
But the question is now can she take that sentence that's been put together and sell it? Is that the right policy for the world?
Up until this date, we don't know. We still have a situation in the Mideast that's not terribly stable. From week to week things change. And we have an administration that likes to take credit before things are resolved.
I mean, remember, mission, you know, accomplished still rings in my ears. A week ago, Lebanon was resolved. Then the, you know, former prime minister of Lebanon is back in power. Today we have this mass rally. Who knows what's happening? She's got to sell a policy that is yet unsure.
CAFFERTY: All right, on another subject, in a career trajectory that would put a 4th of July bottle rocket to shame, Condoleezza Rice has gone in short order from being an adviser to then Governor Bush to being national security adviser to being secretary of state and now they're talking about maybe she'll be president of the United States.
She says she doesn't want to be president of the United States.
Does anybody care about this?
Cliff? MAY: Oh, people love to speculate. Look, I think the point is this, Jack. Condoleezza Rice would make a wonderful candidate. She'd probably make a great president. But anybody who understands anything about how modern campaigns are run in this country knows that it's pretty much impossible to do that while you're serving as secretary of state.
If you're a senator, you miss some votes, you get criticized for it, so what? But how do you show up in New Hampshire rather than in Moscow when you're secretary of state? How do you raise money?
I just don't think you can do it unless you quit that job first. And I don't think she's going to quit that job any time soon.
CAFFERTY: Victor, on the Democratic side of the ledger, Hillary Clinton is the odds on favorite in all the polls at this point, with three years away, three and a half years away from another election. But she's the odds on favorite among the Democrats.
Would Condoleezza Rice give her a run?
The Republicans, as I look at the field going into 2008, are a little short on viable presidential timber.
KAMBER: Well, first of all, I think the Democrats are blessed with a bevy of candidates. Hillary Clinton clearly is the frontrunner today. Condoleezza Rice, we don't know.
Cliff said it best -- I don't know that she'd be a great candidate. She might be a good president because she's bright, but who even knows that? We don't know what she stands for in terms of economic policy, health care, Social Security, you name all the issues that are prevalent. And we don't know if she could even get out of the starting gate as a candidate.
I think John McCain, let's not minimize, Republicans do have one or two people, not a whole bevy, I think it's correct. But they have several people that I think will make a formidable race next time.
But I think Hillary Clinton could be our next president.
CAFFERTY: Thanks, fellows.
Victor Kamber is a Democratic consultant; Cliff May, former RNC communications director, currently with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
Thanks for being with us. MAY: Thanks, Jack.
O'BRIEN: A hostage and the chilling details of her hellish ordeal with a suspected killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: He brought some masking tape and an extension cord and a curtain in there. And I kind of thought he was going to strangle me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Ashley Smith's night with Brian Nichols. Her courageous story, in her own words, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAFFERTY: It's time now to check in with Jeff Toobin, who's trying to take my job away from me, doing the Question of the Day.
TOOBIN: I've already gotten e-mails that say Toobin, don't quit your day job. And don't worry.
O'BRIEN: Ah!
TOOBIN: It's true. It's true. No. Anyway, but today, we're talking about Brian Nichols, the suspect in Friday's courthouse shootings. He could face the death penalty for killing four people, including a judge, two law enforcement officers and a court reporter.
And our question is do the at least courthouse shootings change your opinion about the death penalty? E-mail us at abcnews.com.
We've got a lot of answers.
OK, here we go. Here are some of the ones we've gotten so far.
Linda in Sacramento, Kentucky writes: "Only in situations like the courthouse killings am I in favor of the death penalty. If there is no doubt the person is guilty, push the button."
Dave in Japan, our regular pal there: "For me it's not a moral issue, it's prevention. If a pit-bull kills a child in the park, we immediately have the dog put down, not as punishment, but to stop that particular animal from ever killing again. It's the same for Nichols."
Norval in Edmonton, Canada writes: "The U.S. is the only developed country to have the death penalty. If it is a deterrent, you should have lower homicides, but guess what? You don't. And why was a gun in the courthouse at all?"
Ray in Sebring, Florida writes: "No, this does not change my opinion about it. I do think they should be speeded up and severely limit all those frivolous appeals from defendants." And then this from -- Ray adds: "On another thought, where can we vote Ashley Smith the bravest woman in the world? Ultimate bravery and sacrifice. She deserves the nation's highest honor."
O'BRIEN: She sure does.
TOOBIN: I think we're going to be hearing a lot about Ashley Smith.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
TOOBIN: It's really just an incredible story.
CAFFERTY: It's pretty amazing.
O'BRIEN: She was pretty remarkable, even in the retelling of the story, except a couple of times where she choked up about losing her husband and her concerns about her 5-year-old. She really even held it together there.
TOOBIN: There is a -- I mean it's funny, she keeps saying that he was calling her an angel. And there is something sort of mystical about her calm.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
CAFFERTY: She's my hero. She is absolutely my hero. And my heroes you can count on one hand.
TOOBIN: All right, well...
O'BRIEN: Yes.
TOOBIN: ... glad you have a new one.
O'BRIEN: Jack is loving her today.
All right, Jeff, thanks.
Well, it may be the biggest protest yet in Lebanon. Have you seen these pictures? Hundreds of thousands flooding the streets of Beirut. The latest in the tug of war between Lebanon and Syria is ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired March 14, 2005 - 08:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Taken hostage at gunpoint -- one woman's amazing night with a fugitive murder suspect.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEY SMITH, FORMER HOSTAGE: And then he took his hat off and he said, "Now do you know who I am?"
And I said, "Yes. I know who you are. Please don't hurt me. Just please don't hurt me."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: The man suspected of four murders in Atlanta says he was led to his angel. Her story on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN broadcast center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
O'BRIEN: Good morning.
Welcome back, everybody.
Bill Hemmer has got the day off.
Jack Cafferty filling in for him this morning -- good morning, Jack.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
A lot to tell you about this morning, as we move into the second hour here.
Ashley Smith, the woman in Atlanta, Georgia, basically handed over a quadruple murder suspect on a silver platter to police. Now she's telling her story of what happened after Brian Nichols grabbed her at her apartment door and held her hostage overnight.
O'BRIEN: She not only kept her cool, she also got to know the man. She made him pancakes in the morning. They talked about their faith and god. And she also waited for a chance to escape.
We've got her amazing story and we're going to hear it in his own words, coming up in just a few moments -- Mr. Toobin, you're covering the legal aspects of this case today.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good morning.
Indeed.
And our Question of the Day is do the Atlanta courthouse shootings change your opinion about the death penalty? E-mail us at am@cnn.com.
Jack, one of the e-mails recently just said they feel like they're cheating on you by answering an e-mail to me today.
CAFFERTY: That's OK, Jeff.
They've got my permission to write in.
TOOBIN: That's OK.
CAFFERTY: That's all right.
O'BRIEN: Jack's fine with it. You can go ahead and e-mail.
CAFFERTY: But don't make it a habit. I mean don't start writing to him this time.
O'BRIEN: That's right.
Thanks, Jeff.
TOOBIN: Indeed.
O'BRIEN: Let's get right to Carol.
She's got the headlines -- good morning.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning.
Good morning to all of you.
Now in the news, a U.S. military helicopter in northern Iraq coming under fire. Military forces say the chopper attacked and destroyed three insurgent vehicles in the city of Mosul. At least two civilians were killed in that incident.
The attack comes as a House committee is meeting in Washington this morning, working on plans to create a new Iraqi security force.
And more details could be released today about why a Wisconsin man fatally shot seven people and then killed himself during a courthouse service. Friends and relatives gathered at a candlelight vigil to remember the victims. Sources say Terry Ratzmann may have been upset over a previous sermon and he was on the verge of losing his job. A news conference is set for this afternoon. Of course, we'll take you there when that happens.
In about two hours, a man accused of plotting to assassinate President Bush will be arraigned in federal court. Ahmed Abu Ali is expected to plead not guilty. The 23-year-old is charged with providing support to al Qaeda and conspiring to assassinate the president. His lawyers say the government obtained his confession through torture.
And today is the deadline for major league baseball to hand over records subpoenaed by Congress. The commissioner's office says it was doing everything "humanly possible" to give the government everything it wants. The Congressional committee wants to see documents about the league's new drug testing program, including results. Seven active and former players have been subpoenaed to testify on Thursday and it will be interesting to see if all seven actually show up.
O'BRIEN: Do you really want to be in contempt would be the question there?
COSTELLO: I don't know.
O'BRIEN: Interesting.
COSTELLO: It'll be interesting.
O'BRIEN: Thanks, Carol.
Well, a quick trip to the store for cigarettes turned into a long night with a gunman for 26-year-old Ashley Smith. Smith says Atlanta courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols pushed his way into her suburban Atlanta apartment, where he bound and gagged her as she begged for her life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ASHLEY SMITH, FORMER HOSTAGE: I told him that I was supposed to go see my little girl the next morning at 10:00 and I asked him if I could go see her. And he told me no. My husband died four years ago and I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning, that if he didn't let me go, she would be really upset.
He still told me no. But I could kind of feel that he started to know who I was and he said, "Maybe, maybe I'll let you go, just maybe. Let's see how things go."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: But by the time it was all over, Smith had cooked a pancake breakfast for Nichols. She said she did what she had to do in order to gain his trust. Nichols finally did let her go. And that's when she called 911.
We're going to hear much more ahead from Ashley Smith this morning -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: It took just minutes from the time police say that Brian Nichols overpowered the guard escorting him in the courthouse to the time he was out of the courthouse. A judge and a court reporter dead on the eighth floor. A police deputy dead down in the street. It would then take more than a day for authorities to finally get their man.
Here's a report from CNN's Randi Kaye.
(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): 9:00 a.m. Friday, Fulton County Courthouse in downtown Atlanta -- 6'1" Brian Nichols overpowers 51-year-old Fulton County Sheriff's Deputy Cynthia Hall. He grabs her gun. She is critically injured in the scuffle.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody off the sidewalk!
KAYE: About 9:15 a.m., Nichols wrestles a second gun away from another deputy, slips into the courtroom through Superior Court Judge Rowland Barnes' private chambers and shoots him dead. Nichols then shoots and kills court reporter Julie Ann Brandau. He flees down eight flights of stairs, shooting and killing 43-year-old Fulton County Deputy Sergeant Hoyt Teasley outside.
9:30 a.m. -- Nichols hijacks a number of vehicles in downtown Atlanta, including a tow truck, before pistol-whipping "AJC" newspaper reporter Don O'Briant and taking his 1997 green Honda Accord.
DON O'BRIANT, "ATLANTA JOURNAL CONSTITUTION": And he pulls the gun and says, "Give me your keys." And I don't give them to him.
And he says, "Give me the keys or I'll kill you."
KAYE: Police warn the public to be on the lookout for O'Briant's Honda.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The last known vehicle is a 1997 Honda Accord.
KAYE: About that same time, a security camera inside a garage captures Nichols wearing what appears to be O'Briant's blazer. He casually walks down the steps, then takes the commuter rail to an upscale Atlanta neighborhood eight miles from the courthouse.
10:40 p.m. Friday -- a couple is assaulted near the same subway station where Nichols gets off.
11:30 p.m. Friday -- someone notices the green Honda parked in the same garage where it had been stolen, only on a different floor. Police view the garage's security camera tape.
CHIEF RICHARD PENNINGTON, ATLANTA POLICE: Remember, we still thought he was in the car. So we had no reason to close down MARTA, because we thought he was still in the Honda.
KAYE: 2:30 a.m. Saturday -- Nichols takes a woman hostage in Gwinnett County, northeast of Atlanta. She was returning from buying cigarettes at a convenience store. About four hours later, construction workers find the body of David Wilhelm, a United States Customs agent. His gun, badge and truck are missing.
9:50 a.m. Saturday -- seven hours after taking a woman hostage, Nichols lets her go. She quickly calls 911.
CHIEF CHARLES WALTERS, GWINNETT COUNTY POLICE: She was able to get out of the apartment and call us. We were -- we activated our SWAT team.
KAYE: Nichols waves a white t-shirt outside the apartment window and surrenders to police. As he's taken away, there is celebration mixed with relief. The manhunt that began 26 hours earlier is over.
Randi Kaye, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEO TAPE)
CAFFERTY: Nichols is currently being held in a federal penitentiary in Atlanta on a firearms possession charge. The Fulton County D.A. says he plans to file more serious charges, including murder, against Nichols within the next 30 days -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Well, at the time of the murders, Nichols was on trial for rape.
Barry Hazen is Nichols' lawyer in that case.
He joins us this morning.
Nice to see you.
Thanks for coming in to talk to us.
BARRY HAZEN, NICHOLS' RAPE TRIAL ATTORNEY: Good morning.
You're quite welcome.
O'BRIEN: How had he been in the courtroom with you in the days prior to the shooting? Was he aggressive? Was he defiant and angry?
HAZEN: I never saw Brian Nichols exhibit any aggressive behavior, either in the months leading up to the trial or during the trial. In fact, during the course of the second trial, if anything, he began to be more humorous, more easygoing and...
O'BRIEN: Respectful?
HAZEN: He was always respectful to me and to anyone else who was around him when I was in his presence.
O'BRIEN: You were not in the court that morning.
HAZEN: No. I'm very lucky. It was the one morning in Atlanta that was a nice day and I decided to walk to the courthouse as opposed to drive, and ended up being about a half a block from the courthouse when this incident happened.
O'BRIEN: So when you hear it's Brian Nichols who's believed to be on this rampage, as his attorney in this case, and you know that the judge has been shot, that a court reporter has been shot, that a deputy has been shot and that a second deputy has been shot, what was going through your mind?
HAZEN: Well, one officer said to me that there was a suspect and they didn't know who it was. Once I had heard it was Judge Barnes, I knew who it was. And I made my presence known to the police on the line and they took me upstairs and I gave them whatever information I had about possibly helping to track him down.
O'BRIEN: Because Judge Barnes was very concerned about security. In the days previous to the shooting, Brian Nichols was found with metal shanks, one in each shoe.
HAZEN: It was actually -- yes. The shooting was on Friday and these metal objects were discovered on Wednesday, and it was brought to our attention Thursday morning in a meeting with Judge Barnes.
O'BRIEN: And the judge was concerned about security in his courtroom then?
HAZEN: Yes. The judge indicated that there would be more security in the courtroom. But he -- we discussed this with a focus predominantly on the moment that a verdict came in, if there was a verdict. We really didn't think there would be an explosion prior to the time that the trial was over and the jury began deliberating.
O'BRIEN: He was more concerned about your security, really.
HAZEN: He was, and that was the ironic thing. As we ended that meeting, the judge expressed the opinion that the people in the courtroom who would be most vulnerable would be the defense attorney, for two reasons. One, because it's the defense attorney sitting in closest proximity to the defendant. And secondly, because he thought that disgruntled defendants probably don't like prosecutors anyway, believe judges are against them to begin with, but if a case is not going the way a defendant wants, it's the lawyer's fault and the anger would be directed toward that person's lawyer.
O'BRIEN: Was there increased security that was noticeable, to your mind, when you went into court that -- or in the court on Thursday? And was there any that you're aware of on that Friday?
HAZEN: Well, I never got there Friday, fortunately. But on Thursday, after the meeting, there was one additional deputy, a female, who sat mostly in the back of the courtroom. So there were three deputies altogether in the courtroom. But, of course, the problem here is that the outburst didn't take place in the courtroom, it took place while he was being escorted from the lockup area in a separate building to this older building, which had no lockup area. That's where the attack apparently took place.
O'BRIEN: It seems like a litany of problems. One, should deputies who are dealing with prisoners have guns? Two, it looks like he is alleged to have run through the judge's chambers and right into the courthouse. No doors ever locking or blocking his or any criminal, frankly, or potential criminal's way into there.
What do you think about all these security issues? HAZEN: Well, part of the problem -- of course, we're talking in retrospect -- really is Judge Barnes' personality. This was a very warm, open man who always had, figuratively and literally, an open door policy. He actually had a sign on his door that said, "Open."
All the other judges, which are in the separate building, require that you go through security and you have to be buzzed in and that kind of thing. Judge Barnes wasn't that kind of a man. He welcomed people. Of course, no one knew this would happen.
The other problem is that this old building does not have a lockup facility on the floor. You actually have to parade a defendant directly through the public area where jurors congregate prior to going into the jury room. And my guess is that the deputy did not want to risk Mr. Nichols being seen in handcuffs because there probably were jurors either there or about to arrive for trial that day.
There had also been an incident two days before, where Mr. Nichols complained to the judge about a juror possibly seeing him while he was being brought back to the courtroom after a lunch break.
O'BRIEN: Is it your sense he was manipulating the system, then? He said I don't want the jurors to see me in handcuffs, take the cuffs off, don't parade me through in cuffs?
HAZEN: Well, certainly looking back, that's a possibility. I don't know for sure. And at the time, we never thought anything about that. We thought we were making a legitimate inquiry into something that he had a right to inquire about.
O'BRIEN: A terrible tragedy.
HAZEN: It is.
O'BRIEN: Barry Hazen, Nichols' attorney in the rape charges.
Thank you very much for your time this morning.
It's nice to talk to you.
HAZEN: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Jack.
CAFFERTY: Thanks, Soledad.
A huge anti-Syrian crowd gathering in Beirut, Lebanon right now. It is one month since former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri was assassinated, which was the event that put the pressure on Syria to get out of Lebanon.
Brent Sadler is live in the middle of it all in Beirut -- Brent, what's the purpose of this demonstration today?
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Jack. This is a massive show of support for the anti-Syrian elements within Lebanese society. I'm going to give you a very quick live walk about from our viewpoint up here to give you a size of this unprecedented crowd of Lebanese, stretching way beyond Martyrs Square, which is where the former prime minister, Rafik Hariri, is buried.
This demonstration really called as a counter-rally to one called by Hezbollah last Tuesday, which reached about half a million people. I'm going to walk you through our position here, just to give you an idea of the scale. Here it is from another side on our building here. The organizers of this are aiming for a one million protest march here demanding the immediate withdrawal of Syrian troops and an ending of the way that Syria has dominated this smaller neighbor.
If they reach a million, think about this, Jack, that's perhaps a quarter of the entire population of Lebanon. This is a massive rally, they say, for independence and democracy in the heart of the Middle East -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Unbelievable.
Brent Sadler live in Beirut.
I guess it's OK as long as they don't all show up on the same day.
A quick check of the weather.
Chad Myers at the CNN Center in Atlanta -- Chad.
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Good morning, Jack.
We just want to check the airports now. All acting well so far. Expecting some delays in Atlanta with low cloud cover; maybe some through Denver with some light deicing. Other than that, the rest of the country looks great.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAFFERTY: Thank you, Chad.
The U.S. has an image problem in the Middle East. Will the president bring in an old friend to tackle the problem? And how successful will she be? We'll take a look at that coming up.
O'BRIEN: Also, we're going to hear more from Ashley Smith. That 26-year-old single mother shares her chilling ordeal with the murder suspect, Brian Nichols.
That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAFFERTY: It's a tough job and the president apparently wants a trusted adviser to do it. Reports say Karen Hughes will be nominated for a State Department post. Her main overseas mission, a diplomatic makeover.
Joining us to talk more about that and some other things, in Miami, Democratic consultant Victor Kamber. And in Washington, Cliff May, former RNC communications director, now with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
Cliff, this has been tried before, trying to polish the image of the United States in the Middle East.
What does Karen bring to the plate that her predecessors did not, because it's met with -- to be charitable -- only limited success thus far?
CLIFF MAY, FORMER RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, FOUNDATION FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Yes, it's a very important job. It's about telling America's story abroad, in the Middle East, importantly; everywhere else, as well; and about explaining America's policies. I don't think this is an impossible task. Essentially, America's policy right now is to spread arena -- is to spread freedom and to push back tyranny.
But since the late 1990s, we haven't had a United States Information Agency. That agency was disestablished in the late 1990s. Now, Karen has to find the right ways to get the message out to people in the world that we're going to support the democracy activists from Beirut, as we just saw with Brent Sadler, and throughout the world.
CAFFERTY: Victor, there's a saying that a really good salesman can sell snow to the Eskimos. There is some question about whether this policy of the United States is a saleable commodity in that part of the world.
What do you think?
VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Well, I think that's the issue. I think Karen Hughes is probably very talented. She's good at public relations. That's her forte. That's what she comes out. She's bright. She's articulate. She's not going to set policy, but she understand this administration's approach. She understands the president. He can begin a sentence, she can finish it. They have that kind of a relationship.
But the question is now can she take that sentence that's been put together and sell it? Is that the right policy for the world?
Up until this date, we don't know. We still have a situation in the Mideast that's not terribly stable. From week to week things change. And we have an administration that likes to take credit before things are resolved.
I mean, remember, mission, you know, accomplished still rings in my ears. A week ago, Lebanon was resolved. Then the, you know, former prime minister of Lebanon is back in power. Today we have this mass rally. Who knows what's happening? She's got to sell a policy that is yet unsure.
CAFFERTY: All right, on another subject, in a career trajectory that would put a 4th of July bottle rocket to shame, Condoleezza Rice has gone in short order from being an adviser to then Governor Bush to being national security adviser to being secretary of state and now they're talking about maybe she'll be president of the United States.
She says she doesn't want to be president of the United States.
Does anybody care about this?
Cliff? MAY: Oh, people love to speculate. Look, I think the point is this, Jack. Condoleezza Rice would make a wonderful candidate. She'd probably make a great president. But anybody who understands anything about how modern campaigns are run in this country knows that it's pretty much impossible to do that while you're serving as secretary of state.
If you're a senator, you miss some votes, you get criticized for it, so what? But how do you show up in New Hampshire rather than in Moscow when you're secretary of state? How do you raise money?
I just don't think you can do it unless you quit that job first. And I don't think she's going to quit that job any time soon.
CAFFERTY: Victor, on the Democratic side of the ledger, Hillary Clinton is the odds on favorite in all the polls at this point, with three years away, three and a half years away from another election. But she's the odds on favorite among the Democrats.
Would Condoleezza Rice give her a run?
The Republicans, as I look at the field going into 2008, are a little short on viable presidential timber.
KAMBER: Well, first of all, I think the Democrats are blessed with a bevy of candidates. Hillary Clinton clearly is the frontrunner today. Condoleezza Rice, we don't know.
Cliff said it best -- I don't know that she'd be a great candidate. She might be a good president because she's bright, but who even knows that? We don't know what she stands for in terms of economic policy, health care, Social Security, you name all the issues that are prevalent. And we don't know if she could even get out of the starting gate as a candidate.
I think John McCain, let's not minimize, Republicans do have one or two people, not a whole bevy, I think it's correct. But they have several people that I think will make a formidable race next time.
But I think Hillary Clinton could be our next president.
CAFFERTY: Thanks, fellows.
Victor Kamber is a Democratic consultant; Cliff May, former RNC communications director, currently with the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.
Thanks for being with us. MAY: Thanks, Jack.
O'BRIEN: A hostage and the chilling details of her hellish ordeal with a suspected killer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SMITH: He brought some masking tape and an extension cord and a curtain in there. And I kind of thought he was going to strangle me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Ashley Smith's night with Brian Nichols. Her courageous story, in her own words, ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAFFERTY: It's time now to check in with Jeff Toobin, who's trying to take my job away from me, doing the Question of the Day.
TOOBIN: I've already gotten e-mails that say Toobin, don't quit your day job. And don't worry.
O'BRIEN: Ah!
TOOBIN: It's true. It's true. No. Anyway, but today, we're talking about Brian Nichols, the suspect in Friday's courthouse shootings. He could face the death penalty for killing four people, including a judge, two law enforcement officers and a court reporter.
And our question is do the at least courthouse shootings change your opinion about the death penalty? E-mail us at abcnews.com.
We've got a lot of answers.
OK, here we go. Here are some of the ones we've gotten so far.
Linda in Sacramento, Kentucky writes: "Only in situations like the courthouse killings am I in favor of the death penalty. If there is no doubt the person is guilty, push the button."
Dave in Japan, our regular pal there: "For me it's not a moral issue, it's prevention. If a pit-bull kills a child in the park, we immediately have the dog put down, not as punishment, but to stop that particular animal from ever killing again. It's the same for Nichols."
Norval in Edmonton, Canada writes: "The U.S. is the only developed country to have the death penalty. If it is a deterrent, you should have lower homicides, but guess what? You don't. And why was a gun in the courthouse at all?"
Ray in Sebring, Florida writes: "No, this does not change my opinion about it. I do think they should be speeded up and severely limit all those frivolous appeals from defendants." And then this from -- Ray adds: "On another thought, where can we vote Ashley Smith the bravest woman in the world? Ultimate bravery and sacrifice. She deserves the nation's highest honor."
O'BRIEN: She sure does.
TOOBIN: I think we're going to be hearing a lot about Ashley Smith.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
TOOBIN: It's really just an incredible story.
CAFFERTY: It's pretty amazing.
O'BRIEN: She was pretty remarkable, even in the retelling of the story, except a couple of times where she choked up about losing her husband and her concerns about her 5-year-old. She really even held it together there.
TOOBIN: There is a -- I mean it's funny, she keeps saying that he was calling her an angel. And there is something sort of mystical about her calm.
O'BRIEN: Yes.
CAFFERTY: She's my hero. She is absolutely my hero. And my heroes you can count on one hand.
TOOBIN: All right, well...
O'BRIEN: Yes.
TOOBIN: ... glad you have a new one.
O'BRIEN: Jack is loving her today.
All right, Jeff, thanks.
Well, it may be the biggest protest yet in Lebanon. Have you seen these pictures? Hundreds of thousands flooding the streets of Beirut. The latest in the tug of war between Lebanon and Syria is ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
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