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Nancy Grace

Legal Analysis of Michael Jackson case and Church Shootings

Aired March 14, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, our greatest treasures, a court of law and a house of worship, under attack all over the last 72 hours.
And across the country in California, Michael Jackson`s alleged child sex victim, the boy, is back on the stand today, and he is not backing down, says sources out of the courtroom, on cross-exam, by Jackson`s lawyer.

Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us this Monday night.

In the Michael Jackson case, it`s boy versus defense lawyer. And apparently the boy is holding his own again in court today on cross-exam.

Saturday at church services in Milwaukee, a gunman opened fire, killing seven and wounding four.

But first tonight, the deadly rampage in Atlanta leaves a judge, a court reporter, a sheriff, and a federal officer dead at the hands of an escaped rape and sodomy defendant, Brian Nichols. We`ll never forget that name.

Last night, a very brave 26-year-old widow and single mom, held hostage by the gunman, believed to be responsible for ending the killing spree. She speaks out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY SMITH, HELD HOSTAGE BY BRIAN NICHOLS: He said, "I`m not going to hurt you if you just do what I say." I said, "All right." So he told me to get in the bathtub. So I got in the bathtub. And he said, "I really don`t feel comfortable around here. I`m going to walk around your house for a few minutes just so I could get the feel of it." I said, "OK." He said, "I don`t want to hurt you. I don`t want to hurt anybody else. So please don`t do anything that`s going to make me hurt you."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And as it came out last night, the M.O. -- the modus operandi -- the method of operation that he used with that woman, Ashley, that you just saw, the hostage is incredibly similar to what the state alleged in its rape and sodomy case, right down to coming in from the parking lot, tying the woman up with masking tape, hand and foot, taking her in and out of the bathroom, the talking, the reasoning, very, very disturbing.

Tonight in Salt Lake City, Utah, Atlanta Fulton County Assistant D.A. Gayle Abramson.

Hi, Gayle. Thank you for being with us.

GAYLE ABRAMSON, ATLANTA FULTON COUNTY ASSISTANT D.A.: Hi, Nancy. My pleasure.

GRACE: Gayle is the prosecutor who was trying Nichols for rape and sodomy, got a mistrial the week before, took him straight back to trial the very next week. And it`s only a miracle that this girl you`re looking at right now, the prosecutor, was not in that courtroom when the gunfire broke out.

Joining us shortly from Charlotte, North Carolina, David Wilhelm`s friend and colleague, Robert Higdon, Jr. Wilhelm -- you may not have heard his name yet -- is the federal agent that was gunned down. In Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell. And also with us, Atlanta Fulton County Deputy D.A. Al Dixon.

Now, Renee was on her way to the courtroom that morning when the shooting broke out. And Al had to go process the crime scene, with the judge and the court reporter`s bodies still there, for photos, ultimately, one day for a jury.

Let me quickly go to Renee Rockwell. Renee, as of now, where does Nichols stand legally?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: My understanding is that the federal government has actually dropped the holding charges that were against him. The feds first put a possession of a firearm by a person under indictment -- which incidentally Georgia does not have a similar law.

GRACE: Yes, I was going to ask you that, Renee. I know we have got possession of a firemen by a convicted felon. But under indictment, if you`re not convicted yet, in most jurisdictions, you can have a gun.

ROCKWELL: That`s right. Now, he was not a convicted felon. But that was a federal charge. That was a holding charge. I think the feds have deferred to the state. They`ve dropped those charges. And it`s a matter of Brian Nichols being transferred back to Fulton County Jail, where right now, my understanding is the only charges that are pending against him are the rape charges. So we`re waiting for another rape trial. Are you ready for that?

GRACE: Correction: Rape, sodomy, aggravated assault. I guess there`s a kidnapping thrown in the pot.

ROCKWELL: That`s right. I`m sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, Miss Rockwell, you`re already trying to plea negotiate the thing down. Don`t -- don`t --

Let me quickly go to Gayle Abramson. Gayle, I`m so happy you`re with us tonight.

ABRAMSON: Happy to be here. It`s a good day to be alive, Nancy.

GRACE: Gayle, all the times I went into that very courtroom on the eighth floor to try cases, I mean, you know you`re dealing with desperate people. You know you`re dealing with violent felons. But did you ever think this guy was going to come looking for you?

ABRAMSON: Never, Nancy. And as you know, I`m sure, me being your legacy in those very courtrooms, those very courtrooms, never, never anticipate something like this would ever happen. I don`t think any of us did. Something like this is utterly tragic. None of us anticipated it.

GRACE: You know, Gayle, Julie was just up here in New York visiting.

ABRAMSON: I heard about that.

GRACE: I gave her a tour of Court TV. That was before I got my job here at Headline News at night. She saw the Empire State Building. We went out to all kind of fancy restaurants. She was calling her daughter on the phone the whole time telling her, you know, what she was doing. It must be an incredible blow. But everybody came back to the courthouse today, right? Business as usual?

ABRAMSON: Everyone did come back to the courthouse today. I believe that they did cancel court for the week. But there was a memorial service today, and everyone came back. There are several memorial services this week.

But, you know, Nancy, Julie was such a great person and a great friend. But she also, like you said, baked for the juries. This particular morning, there was a cake in the jury room awaiting the jurors when they got in.

GRACE: And, Al, didn`t you tell me, when you had -- there`s a shot of Julie. And that`s the way I will always remember her.

Al, when you processed the scene did you see all the goodies laid out that she had made?

AL DIXON, FULTON COUNTY DEPUTY D.A.: Yes, Nancy. They were in the jury room waiting on the jury to get there that morning. She had already had them on a tray and had them on the table, ready.

GRACE: Hey, Al, what`s next for this guy? I was very stunned the other night when you told me the feds were involved. We`ll all be retired and in the rest home before they move forward with anything.

DIXON: Well, Nancy, the federal government, the U.S. Attorney`s Office, had charged Nichols with possession of a firemen.

GRACE: Yes.

DIXON: That was just to hold him in federal custody, as a precautionary measure to protect Mr. Nichols and to make sure that there was a secure facility to house Mr. Nichols.

GRACE: Yes. I guess in light of the fact that the sheriff, the Fulton County sheriff, there was concern about other sheriffs guarding him. Point well taken, Al.

Let me go to Robert Higdon.

Elizabeth, do we have Robert with us now?

Mr. Higdon is a very dear friend of David Wilhelm. And we`ve heard very little about Mr. Wilhelm. He`s a federal agent. And he was gunned down by Brian Nichols, according to prosecutors, just minding his own business.

Robert, what happened to your friend?

ROBERT HIGDON, JR., ASST. U.S. ATTY.: Well, Nancy, I`m not exactly sure what happened. But what I`ve heard from your network and what I`ve heard from investigators in Atlanta was that David was minding his own business, doing what he often did in his off-working hours. He was building a home for he and his wife.

He was a very accomplished contractor. He built beautiful homes here in Charlotte, in Norfolk, Virginia, when he worked there and now in Atlanta. And he was minding his own business. But he was victim, like so many are around this country.

GRACE: Oh, gosh. Wait a minute. Was that his wife I just saw, saw him hugging a lady out in a -- oh, gosh. He`s leaving behind a widow, isn`t he?

HIGDON: He is. He`s leaving behind a very lovely lady who has been supportive of his 18-year law enforcement career. And I spoke with her today. And I tell you, she is one of the strongest ladies that I`ve ever met. And one of the things that she wanted me to pass along was to thank all of the law enforcement officers and all those that participated in this investigation and have been looking after her family and after the families of all the other victims who are involved in this horrible, horrible event.

GRACE: You know, looking at that shot of her with her husband -- everyone, we are talking to Robert Higdon. He`s an assistant U.S. attorney prosecutor in Raleigh, North Carolina, who knew this last alleged victim, Brian Nichols.

Hey, Renee Rockwell, we`ve got to go to a quick break. But speaking of law men down, Renee, you came out the steps and actually saw Sheriff Teasley laying there on the sidewalk.

ROCKWELL: That`s correct, Nancy. And my understanding is that he was feet away from Brian Nichols and just didn`t get a shot in. Brian got the best of him. And it`s very unfortunate. And my understanding is that his funeral`s on Friday. And there`s nothing quite as impressive as a law enforcement officer`s funeral when he was killed in the line of duty. It should be incredible.

GRACE: You know, Renee, I think if the had his choice he`d say, you keep the funeral, OK? I`d rather be amongst the living.

We`re going to go to break. But one thing Renee told me when she went up to the eighth floor that day, the elevator opened and the first thing she saw was a sheriff`s hat on the floor. She knew something was wrong.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: I told him that I was supposed to go see my little girl the next morning at 10:00. And I asked him if I could go see her. And he told me, "No." My husband died four years ago. And I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn`t have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARRY HAZEN, NICHOLS` DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I never saw Brian Nichols exhibit any aggressive behavior, either in the months leading up to the trial or during the trial. In fact, during the course of the second trial, if anything, he began to be more humorous, more easy-going.

SOLEDAD O`BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Respectful?

HAZEN: He was always respectful to me and to anyone else who was around him when I was in his presence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Objection, OK. That was Barry Hazen, Brian Nichols` defense attorney. And he told me to my face, this guy, Gayle Abramson, had two shanks with him. I mean, when he`s saying he didn`t see any aggressive behavior, I mean, we`ve already got a rape charge, a sodomy charge, an ag- assault charge, a possession of a machine gun, OK.

And then the guy has something like a hinge that he`s going to plan to use as a knife. Then, everybody, the other thing he had was a piece of metal with a hole in it with something wrapped through it so you could swing it and hit somebody with it.

Now, Gayle, correct me if I am wrong, but that sounds aggressive.

ABRAMSON: Absolutely, Nancy. And what it was was he had two door hinge-type shanks in his shoes. One of them with a hole in it had a piece of material that had been ripped off from a jail uniform tied through it. And what that can do is, it can be used to swing the implement around or can wrap it around the implement and use it as a knife. Now, before that, he had exhibited some behavior in the courtroom that he had to be admonished for.

GRACE: What?

ABRAMSON: And this is the kind of -- well, he had gotten up out of his seat a few different times.

GRACE: Oh, no. He did not. The defendant is not to get out of his seat during the proceedings.

ABRAMSON: Absolutely not. And Sergeant White admonished him. And he said to him, "Don`t let those clothes fool you. You are in my custody, and you will stay in that seat." And he just kind of got a look-back from Mr. Nichols, and the defendant tried to deny he ever got out of his seat. And we all saw it.

GRACE: So, who are we supposed to believe, him or our lying eyes? Which one?

ABRAMSON: Absolutely. I mean, we are supposed to believe our eyes.

GRACE: And Gayle, Gayle, it`s not just the defendant. I mean, even lawyers don`t get up, like when the other side is questioning or speaking to the jury, you don`t just get up and walk around the courtroom. That`s just not...

ABRAMSON: No, it`s no. It`s just courtroom decorum. You know, I mean, I`ve never seen a defendant get out of his chair, whether the defendant`s on bond or in custody.

And he got out of his chair. He had asked to speak with people in the courtroom and other things. I mean, he didn`t exhibit any violent behavior until the shanks were found in his shoes. But he certainly started to exhibit strange signs, which -- you know, and you bring up a good point about this mirror image thing. He starts with just kind of trying to establish trust with people. And it just escalates until he feels like he`s in control.

GRACE: You know, Al, the other night -- it was last night -- I was talking to the defense attorney, and they were talking about what`s going to happen with the rape charge. He`s got a whole lot more to worry about than 20 to life. Has Paul Howard, your district attorney, announced the death penalty?

DIXON: No, Nancy. That would be premature to do that until the case is indicted. But, as you said, I mean, Mr. Nichols has a lot more to worry about than the rape charge at this time.

GRACE: Yes, he sure does.

DIXON: That`s the least of his worries at this point.

GRACE: Hey, Gayle, when you first heard about the shootings, you were about 15 minutes probably away from that courtroom when the shootings went down. Rowland Barnes was having a civil calendar before Gayle came in to resume trying the rape and sodomy case.

Gayle, where were you?

ABRAMSON: Well, I was actually about a minute or less from the courtroom. And that`s because I was preparing to -- ironically to cross- examine the defendant that morning. So I was headed to the courtroom about a half an hour early to get myself ready. I had some visuals I needed to set up. And I was meeting with the victim and her family early that morning.

So I was about -- my office is a floor beneath the courtroom. And I was about headed out of my office towards the elevators to head into the courtroom.

GRACE: Your office is on seven?

ABRAMSON: My office is on the seventh floor, right beneath Judge Barnes` courtroom.

GRACE: Gayle, that used to be our appellate division when I was a prosecutor. So there were many an hour spent cracking the books in there, what is now your office.

Renee -- Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, is with us, as well -- tomorrow morning, Nichols has his first appearance in court. What do you expect to go down?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, I don`t know if he`s going to have this his first appearance in court because, remember now, the only charges that are pending against him formally are the rape, aggravated sodomy, the kidnapping, the ag-assault.

GRACE: It`s a status hearing.

ROCKWELL: OK. It`s a status hearing. It`s not the first appearance on any new charges.

GRACE: Yes.

ROCKWELL: But I wanted to mention something, because I was just looking at what Barry was saying about how Brian had -- Brian Nichols had sort of gotten to be a little more humorous and a little more jovial.

I think, Nancy, that he had decided at that point what he was going to do. This was absolutely something that was premeditated. Remember, he had been going back and forth over that bridge and he had decided what he was going to do.

GRACE: You know, before I go to break, Robert Higdon is with us. And one of the victims has gotten very little notice, because we know so little about him. David Wilhelm is a Customs agent. And his friend, Robert, is with us tonight. There`s a shot.

Robert, how long was David in law enforcement? Did you say 18 years?

HIGDON: I believe it was 18 years, Nancy.

GRACE: And, you know, that`s not an easy life, as you well know. You make practically nothing. You have to believe in what you`re doing. And you said he was working on his house at the time this guy came into his life?

HIGDON: That`s my understanding.

GRACE: Does he have any children?

HIGDON: He does not have any children, no, but he leaves his wife behind.

GRACE: Could you just tell me a little bit about him before we go to break?

HIGDON: Well, David was a wonderful guy. He was really the finest police officer, law enforcement agent, that I`ve met in the 15 years since that I`ve been a federal prosecutor.

He was a thorough officer. He was an honest one. He was one who left no stone unturned. But he didn`t forget when he was dealing with criminals that he was also dealing with human beings. And so he had the full package.

He was just a great human being. And he also conducted himself that way in private life. He was a hard worker when he was building these homes. He looked after his wife. He looked after his handicapped brother. He was very close to his parents.

You won`t meet anyone who knew David Wilhelm who didn`t just refer to him as a wonderful human being. And so he`s really going to be missed in the law enforcement community very badly.

GRACE: Robert, I just appreciate you speaking out on his behalf tonight. Robert Higdon is with us. He`s a prosecutor out of Carolina.

I want to thank my guests. And all of you work in that courthouse. I`m just so grateful that you`re here with us tonight. Renee Rockwell, my friend and colleague, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Gayle Abramson, the assistant D.A., who was trying that rape and sodomy case -- many people thought to a guilty verdict -- that day on the way to the courtroom. And last but not least, of course, Al Dixon, the deputy district attorney in Fulton County who processed the scene. All of you, thank you, friends.

As we go to break, to "Trial Tracking": Today, closing arguments in the Sarah Johnson double-murder trial. Her defense team still screaming, "No blood, no guilt." The prosecution lays out for the jury what they say was Johnson`s motive.

At the state`s request, the judge instructs the jury they can consider the lesser charge of aiding and abetting in her parents` double murder. They could consider that if they failed to convict on murder, if they don`t know whether Johnson pulled the trigger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB PANGBURN, SARAH JOHNSON`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: By doing what justice requires, by acquitting her, that it`s the end of the story. It`s not. Make them go find the real killers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the gunman fired 22 rounds before turning the gun at himself. The man identified by police as Terry Ratzmann was active in the church.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a single man, 44, quiet but nice. No one would ever have even remotely thought that this could happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, to America`s heartland and the latest on the church shootings in Milwaukee. Dr. Charles Cady, he treated three of the victims. And the county district attorney, Paul Bucher. But first to WISN-TV reporter Kent Wainscott.

Welcome, Kent. What can you tell me as of tonight?

KENT WAINSCOTT, WISN-TV REPORTER: Well, we did get some new information in terms of the investigation, that authorities are looking through four computers that the shooter in this case, Terry Ratzmann had -- three at his home, one at his business. And police at this point are focusing on church-related issues as a possible motive. But at this point, they have no idea exactly what prompted him to open fire in the church service inside this Sheraton Hotel on Saturday.

GRACE: So no motive. They think it`s church-related, and they`re digging through his computer?

WAINSCOTT: They are. They searched the home. They removed three computers from the home, one from his place of business.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with Kent, as well as our other two guests. A devastating shooting in America`s heartland.

Here at NANCY GRACE, we want desperately to help find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Amarilis Roman, a runaway from Chicago, missing just one month. She`s only 14. Look at this girl. If you have any information on Amarilis Roman, please call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, 1-800-THE-LOST.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody, I`m Thomas Roberts. And this is your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

A public memorial ceremony will be held tomorrow for three people murdered at an Atlanta courthouse on Friday. Courthouse employees returned to work under heightened security this morning. Brian Nichols remains in jail accused of killing a judge, a court reporter and a sheriff`s deputy.

The battle over same-sex marriage takes a new turn in California. A San Francisco judge says it`s unconstitutional for the state to limit marriage to a union between a man and woman. The ruling is likely to be appealed at the State Supreme Court. If the ruling is upheld, California could follow Massachusetts in allowing gay couples to marry.

Well, neither ABC-TV nor the NFL will be getting into trouble with the FCC for this now-infamous opening segment on "Monday Night Football." Today, the FCC ruled the bit between Terrell Owens and Nicollette Sheridan was not sufficiently explicit or graphic to be deemed indecent.

And that is the news for now. I`m Thomas Roberts. We take you back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL BUCHER, WAUKESHA COUNTY D.A.: It`s just heartbreaking. It`s overwhelming. I keep saying that word. I`m not sure what other word to use. It`s human -- it`s just overwhelming. My heart goes out to the families of these individuals and witnesses that had to observe this, and the officers that have to deal with it. It`s not a pretty scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Twelve shot, eight dead. Let`s go straight out to Paul Bucher, the Waukesha County district attorney.

Welcome, Paul. Paul, did this guy have a criminal record?

BUCHER: No, Nancy. He didn`t have a criminal record. Frankly, he was never really on our radar screen. Didn`t know about the guy, never had any run-ins with him. And we kind of took him and shook him upside down, and nothing fell out. We just don`t know who the guy is.

GRACE: Wait a minute.

Hey, Elizabeth, show me that picture again. That`s the perpetrator. OK, he`s on the computer. Is he drinking a glass of milk? Is that what I`m seeing, Elizabeth? Yes, he`s having milk and cookies. OK, this is a 45-year-old guy that lives with his mother. Is that right, Paul?

BUCHER: He lives with his mother and his sister in a pretty nondescript, quiet neighborhood, two-story residence, really nothing specific.

GRACE: And let me go to Dr. Charles Cady. He treated three of the victims.

Many people say, if it had not been for your treatment and your facility, more people would have passed away. Three victims still in the hospital. Are they expected to recover?

DR. CHARLES CADY, TREATED VICTIMS GUNNED DOWN AT CHURCH SERVICE: Well, Nancy, one of them is in critical condition. Two are satisfactory. They are all expected to have full recoveries.

GRACE: Let me go to Kent Wainscott with WISN-TV.

Kent, do you think he specifically targeted these victims?

WAINSCOTT: Nancy, I asked police about that specifically today. They told me that there is an indication that he may have targeted some of the victims. The minister of this church, Randy Gregory, was killed in the shooting, as was his teenage son. His wife was shot and wounded, injured in the shooting. And police believe that he may have been targeting them and that the rest of the shooting victims may have just been victims of random gunfire in the room.

GRACE: Paul Bucher, the district attorney, I understand he used a nine millimeter?

BUCHER: Yes, a nine millimeter. That`s correct, a Beretta.

GRACE: And do you have to have a license for that, not that that would have changed anything. People can get guns at a gun show pretty easily. But do you have to have a license in that jurisdiction for a nine?

BUCHER: No, not in Wisconsin. You don`t need a license. We don`t register firearms. ATF did some really good work on the firearm pretty quick and turned it around. And he bought the firearm here locally.

GRACE: Gentlemen, thank you very much. Still no clear motive in a mass shooting in a house of worship.

Thank you to Paul Bucher, Kent Wainscott and Dr. Charles Cady, credited with saving the lives of some of the victims.

Switching gears tonight, from Tampa, defense attorney Joe Episcopo; in L.A., defense attorney David Wohl; here in New York, psychotherapist -- and boy do we need a shrink -- Robi Ludwig, and from Santa Maria, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

You know when you see Jane Velez-Mitchell, we`re talking about Michael Jackson.

Jane, I understand this boy is still on the stand, and apparently, he`s holding his own against Tom Mesereau, a veteran criminal defense lawyer.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Yes, it is a David and Goliath battle, Nancy. But some people think Goliath is winning at this point.

I have to tell you, this was a day of absolutely relentless grilling by the lead defense attorney, Thomas Mesereau, of this 15-year-old accuser. It didn`t stop. It went on for more than five hours.

And Mesereau did score some points. He got the boy to admit, for example, that he told his dean at his school twice that nothing happened between him and Michael Jackson. And the boy said this was after he left Neverland. So that was a big point. And there were several others like that. And it was just -- it continues on tomorrow.

GRACE: When you say several other points like that, what were they?

OK, wait a minute. Here`s Jackson. Let`s see. This is today. He has got his umbrella, his umbrella holder, his family, his family crest on his jacket, a vibrant red jacket. We have got the arm band, the entourage, the bodyguard. OK, we`re ready for court. Let`s go to court.

You know, Jane, he had on real shoes today, right? He didn`t have on those big fuzzy slippers again, did he?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He had cowboy boots on, or something that resembles cowboy boots. And sometimes he comes in sandals, sometimes he comes in slipper-type shoes, but today...

GRACE: Wait a minute. Michael Jackson, cowboy boots?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He was decked out. Cowboyish-boots.

GRACE: Cowboyish-boots.

Episcopo, sounds to me like we`re looking at an insanity defense. When did Michael Jackson dress up like a cowboy? Have I missed something?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, wait a minute. I want to correct you on something here. First of all, you`re saying this kid`s standing up to Mesereau.

GRACE: Yes.

EPISCOPO: He`s a seventh grader. None of his teachers like him. He shows off in the class.

GRACE: You could say that about a lot of seventh grade boys.

(CROSSTALK)

EPISCOPO: He challenges them. He tells the teachers that they don`t know how to teach him. You know what he is? He`s a lying little punk. I`m surprised he`s not chewing gum on the stand.

GRACE: You mean a lying little cancer patient who can probably have his testimony corroborated by Michael Jackson`s harddrive?

EPISCOPO: No. I think he might have it corroborated by his grandmother who told him it`s good to masturbate so that you don`t rape girls.

GRACE: Wait, now hold on. Jane Velez-Mitchell, I thought that`s what Jackson allegedly told him.

EPISCOPO: This is the second big point that Tom Mesereau scored today, pointing up inconsistencies in the boy`s statement. Last week, the boy testified that Michael Jackson told him if he didn`t masturbate he could get to the level where he might have to rape a girl. Well, today, Tom Mesereau said that the boy told sheriff`s investigators that his grandmother had told him that.

And the boy didn`t deny it. He said, well, they were both trying to tell me the same thing about the birds and bees. But Michael Jackson said I had to do it, and my grandmother said it was OK to do it. But what`s the likelihood of two people saying that...

GRACE: Yes.

EPISCOPO: ... same statement, which is quite a bizarre statement. That was another troublesome moment for the prosecution.

GRACE: That`s a problem. That`s a problem. Joe Episcopo is correct.

David Wohl, what do you have to say?

DAVID WOHL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, the big point apparently that Mesereau scored was that the boy didn`t tell his principal that he was molested. Now, let me see. He tells the principal, the next day the entire school knows about it, and his life is ruined.

Nancy, you know I`ve worked in juvenile court for the last 15 years, many times with little molest victims. It is traumatic. It is embarrassing. It`s horrifying for these kids to admit to talk about this issue, especially to males like myself. So I would have been more surprised if the boy actually said something to the principal.

There`s this issue of child abuse accommodation syndrome, also. The D.A. will bring in an expert to cover their behind on this one. And, believe me, the Mesereau score here isn`t nearly as strong as many people think it is.

GRACE: Robi Ludwig is with us.

Robi, what do you think about the fact he did not tell, I guess the equivalent of the principal of the school?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, I agree with the lawyer. We`re saying that it`s very common for children of sexual abuse to be loyal to the person abusing them because they actually feel a connection to them.

GRACE: Isn`t it kind of a bond with them?

LUDWIG: They have a bond. They`re not being forced. They`re being manipulated. And, again, it is embarrassing.

So I don`t know if that in and of itself proves anything. But the fact that this child is cheeky, that he is not presented as a sympathetic character, that he has admitted to lying, that is going to be a problem because I know we have discussed this before. But there are cases of false sexual allegation. They exist.

GRACE: Yes, about 2 percent.

LUDWIG: I`m not sure about that.

GRACE: Statistics have shown. Maybe you have some different statistics.

LUDWIG: Well, I can tell you what I`ve found.

GRACE: Two to seven percent of all rape and all child molestation cases are proved to be false accusations. So if you want to believe that this kid falls into that 2 to 7 percent, I guess that will be up to the jury.

LUDWIG: Well, that`s true. But it is possible. And when they find, in cases where there is false allegation, it tends to be in divorce cases where the mother is enraged with the father. And somehow, through the questioning of the child, somehow hears things in a certain way or is so angry is that that encourages the child to come out with this story.

And I just have to say, it`s just as damaging for the child, whether it happened or not, if they`re repeating this story. It`s almost like it happened, whether it did or didn`t happen in these kind of cases.

GRACE: They get in their heads that it happened.

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: We`re going to go straight back out to California and Jane Velez-Mitchell when we get back. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: I love my community and I have great faith in our justice system. Please keep an open mind and let me have my day in court. I deserve a fair trial like every other American citizen. I will be acquitted and vindicated when the truth is told. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I feel totally at home with them. I can talk to them one- on-one because they don`t judge you, you know, they`re not looking for anything. They just want to have some fun, you know? And that`s the same with myself. And I can connect to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re seeing a rebuttal documentary that was made by a Michael Jackson staffer.

Back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice," Jane, is the jury getting a little sick of watching that defense rebuttal video? How many times have they seen it, and in slow-mo?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s being played ad nauseam, and it`s making everybody crazy. I went over to the overflow room where the press can really talk. And you wouldn`t believe the hoots and the hollers. People are really sick of it. Presumably the jury is sick of it, too. But it is scoring points for the defense.

Now, Tom Mesereau plays a little bit of it. And, of course, the whole family, the accuser and his family, are gushing over Michael Jackson. Then he stops the tape and goes, "Are you lying or are you telling the truth?"

Now, the boy is in a quandary. If he says he`s lying, then he`s a liar. But if he says he`s telling the truth, then he`s undermining the conspiracy case because Michael Jackson`s this wonderful guy. So it`s a no-win situation for this kid.

And I have to wonder why the prosecution isn`t jumping up more and objecting. Even people who are pro-prosecution are saying at this point that Tom Sneddon has to get more pro-active and on redirect, when he gets a chance to re-question this boy, set up a lot of the things that have been mentioned on this very program, like, well, why didn`t you tell the dean? Were you embarrassed? Those kinds of things. I don`t think they can wait for experts to come in, because it`s just too damaging.

GRACE: Yes, I was just about to ask you, David Wohl, the state has to bring on a psychologist or a psychiatrist to explain to a jury why often child molestation victims don`t speak out, much less to some person at school they hardly know, much less to someone like a principal. No, no, no, no, that is not uncommon at all, David.

WOHL: No, Nancy, it`s not, especially with boys. There`s some sort of stigma attached to being molested.

Now, with all due respect to Jane, I disagree. There was option number three. I`m saying this on tape on the rebuttal video because Jackson and his thugs are telling me if I don`t say it I`ll never leave Neverland. If I do, I`ll end up in Brazil. I might get my mother knocked off. I mean, that is the prosecution`s point, is this was a coerced tape.

Now, will Jackson take the stand and explain the production of this tape when it`s his turn, explain why it took place right after the initial video, explain his motivation? I kind of think not.

GRACE: What do you think, Joe Episcopo, Jackson on the stand? I say no way.

EPISCOPO: Yes, I think it would be great for him, because I think they would understand what he is like. But let`s get back to the kid for a minute...

GRACE: Wait, so you`re saying he will take the stand, Jackson?

EPISCOPO: I think it would be good. But I want to talk about the kid for a minute.

GRACE: OK.

EPISCOPO: You`re trying to make him out to be a little fearful wimp. He`s standing up to every teacher in the classroom.

GRACE: No, I`m not making him out to be a wimp.

EPISCOPO: He`s calling them out.

GRACE: He`s a 15-year-old boy.

EPISCOPO: He`s a punk.

GRACE: I don`t think that`s fair, Joe, to call this kid a punk.

EPISCOPO: Well, I think he is.

GRACE: Why? Because you don`t like the way he`s testifying?

EPISCOPO: Because of the way he behaves in the classroom, nobody can teach him.

GRACE: OK, you know what? Let`s go to the source on that.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, was he portrayed as a punk? Would you go that far?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s talks back and he is a smart-aleck. And you know...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, I`ve got a question. Everybody on this panel better think back to when they were in the seventh grade.

LUDWIG: I have a theory about it, though. I wonder, though, if he`s talking back to all the authority figures that he can get away with it. He can`t get away with talking like that to his mother, so he lets it out to all the adults around him. That is one very serious possibility.

GRACE: And that`s not the only thing, Robi. When kids have been molested...

LUDWIG: That`s true.

GRACE: ... they act out.

Listen, when I would get a child molestation victim -- and I know maybe I`m projecting my victims on to this kid -- but their grades go down. They act out. They cut school. They misbehave. There is a drastic hairpin turn in their behavior.

And all of this -- Episcopo, this doesn`t mean a darn thing if this kid acted out at school. To me, that reinforces the claim of molestation.

EPISCOPO: Nancy, even the allegations are not much molestation, if you really look at it. What did he say? He`s touched him twice. That`s no big deal. There`s no sex here.

GRACE: No, no. No, no. That`s not true. That`s not true. He doesn`t say, "He touched me." He said he had his hands on the boy`s genitals, that he showed this kid X-rated pornography and got the kid drunk. Now, to you, that may not be serious, but where I come from, buddy, that is a felony.

EPISCOPO: I know. But the way you`re trying to portray him as somebody who is acting out. There`s no sodomy. There`s no oral sex. Come on. It`s not as extensive.

GRACE: So that`s your defense, there was no sodomy? OK, you know what?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: No, you need to rest your case right there.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, did you hear that? The defense is, there was no sodomy?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, I think one of the reasons this boy may be acting out is because he was supposedly taunted at school after the Bashir documentary aired. And he was being called names that we can`t really repeat on television right now.

And that could be one of the reasons why he was having all these fights and all these disciplinary problems. This kid has been through hell. Nobody would deny that. He had cancer. He was given chemotherapy for more than a year. So all of that could have led to these disciplinary problems.

GRACE: Jane, at one juncture, I think it was today, Mesereau asked this boy, was his handle, his, you know, name on AOL, or computer, "Gay Blade," and the boy got all upset and embarrassed. There was an objection. What happened?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that was a time when the prosecution jumped up and objected vigorously and said this is not supposed to be included in the testimony. You`ve ruled on this, judge. And the judge said, "Absolutely." But see that`s the kind of little bombshell that Tom Mesereau drops without any substantiation but it sticks in the craw.

GRACE: That`s so wrong to do to a boy on -- to suggest in front of the jury that his nickname is "Gay Blade." What did the kid do?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, there were suggestions this boy masturbated when Michael Jackson wasn`t there, that he stole a $1,000 laminated bill. And he said, "I didn`t even know they made $1,000 bills." That he broke into a closet and stole alcohol. There were a lot of unsubstantiated claims.

GRACE: With us at the courthouse, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

A quick break. Tonight, I want to give you the latest as we go to break on little Jessie Lunsford. Remember the 9-year-old Florida girl? She went missing last month. About five dozen volunteers continue searching for Jessie. They searched all weekend. As of tonight, nothing. Not even a clue. Jessica`s mother has made the decision to return home to Cincinnati after attempts to locate Jessie have failed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOTHER OF JESSICA LUNSFORD: It`s not hard to hold on to hope, because, you know, I have got God. That`s all that matters. You know, he`ll bring her home to me one way or the other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Jessica`s father, however, is not giving up. Jessie disappeared from her home while her grandparents slept down the hall.

Jessie, where are you?

Local news next for some of you. We`ll be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of Michael Jackson, the Robert Blake verdict watch, Sarah Johnson verdict watch, tomorrow 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, call 1-888-GRACE-01, 472-2301, or visit the Web site CNN.com/NancyGrace.

Very quickly, before we sign off, Jane Velez-Mitchell out in California, what happens tomorrow?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Defense attorney Tom Mesereau continues his cross- examination of the accuser. And then when he`s done, Tom Sneddon, the district attorney, does redirect. And the general consensus is, Tom Sneddon needs to make some points tomorrow on redirect with this boy and undo some of the damage and rehabilitate this witness. It could be the most crucial moment of the trial. And we`ll have to wait and see if he does it.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, can you pass on some advice, since he didn`t ask, to the prosecutor for me tomorrow? Will you tell him to get up and object? Don`t sit there on your thumb, do something.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: If you`re watching, Tom, you heard it from Nancy.

GRACE: I`m sure he`ll like to hear that from you.

Hey, Jane, thanks so much. Everybody, I want to thank all of my guests earlier, my Atlanta guests and our Milwaukee guests. And tonight, Jane Velez-Mitchell from "Celebrity Justice," she`s there at the courthouse. Veteran criminal defense attorney, my sparring buddy, Joe Episcopo. His defense tonight is, hey, there was no sodomy.

OK. I know you`ll get me back next time, Joe.

And to David Wohl, my friend in California, defense attorney there. Robi Ludwig -- excuse me -- Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist here in New York.

But my biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with us tonight and inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, the latest headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Erica Hill with your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Michael Jackson`s accuser admitted to some conflicting statements today under tough questioning. He said he once told a school official that nothing sexual happened with Jackson but gave no explanation for the denial. In previous testimony, he accused Jackson of molesting him on two occasions at the singer`s Neverland ranch.

Former President Bill Clinton is back at home. He left a New York hospital today, four days after surgery to remove fluid and scar tissue from his lungs. Doctors expect him to continue resting at home for another four to six weeks.

And indispensable or annoying? A new survey explores our feelings about cell phones and the people who use them. We`ll get to the bottom of it all when Mike Galanos and I join you for "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT," next.

END


Aired March 14, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, our greatest treasures, a court of law and a house of worship, under attack all over the last 72 hours.
And across the country in California, Michael Jackson`s alleged child sex victim, the boy, is back on the stand today, and he is not backing down, says sources out of the courtroom, on cross-exam, by Jackson`s lawyer.

Good evening everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us this Monday night.

In the Michael Jackson case, it`s boy versus defense lawyer. And apparently the boy is holding his own again in court today on cross-exam.

Saturday at church services in Milwaukee, a gunman opened fire, killing seven and wounding four.

But first tonight, the deadly rampage in Atlanta leaves a judge, a court reporter, a sheriff, and a federal officer dead at the hands of an escaped rape and sodomy defendant, Brian Nichols. We`ll never forget that name.

Last night, a very brave 26-year-old widow and single mom, held hostage by the gunman, believed to be responsible for ending the killing spree. She speaks out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY SMITH, HELD HOSTAGE BY BRIAN NICHOLS: He said, "I`m not going to hurt you if you just do what I say." I said, "All right." So he told me to get in the bathtub. So I got in the bathtub. And he said, "I really don`t feel comfortable around here. I`m going to walk around your house for a few minutes just so I could get the feel of it." I said, "OK." He said, "I don`t want to hurt you. I don`t want to hurt anybody else. So please don`t do anything that`s going to make me hurt you."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And as it came out last night, the M.O. -- the modus operandi -- the method of operation that he used with that woman, Ashley, that you just saw, the hostage is incredibly similar to what the state alleged in its rape and sodomy case, right down to coming in from the parking lot, tying the woman up with masking tape, hand and foot, taking her in and out of the bathroom, the talking, the reasoning, very, very disturbing.

Tonight in Salt Lake City, Utah, Atlanta Fulton County Assistant D.A. Gayle Abramson.

Hi, Gayle. Thank you for being with us.

GAYLE ABRAMSON, ATLANTA FULTON COUNTY ASSISTANT D.A.: Hi, Nancy. My pleasure.

GRACE: Gayle is the prosecutor who was trying Nichols for rape and sodomy, got a mistrial the week before, took him straight back to trial the very next week. And it`s only a miracle that this girl you`re looking at right now, the prosecutor, was not in that courtroom when the gunfire broke out.

Joining us shortly from Charlotte, North Carolina, David Wilhelm`s friend and colleague, Robert Higdon, Jr. Wilhelm -- you may not have heard his name yet -- is the federal agent that was gunned down. In Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell. And also with us, Atlanta Fulton County Deputy D.A. Al Dixon.

Now, Renee was on her way to the courtroom that morning when the shooting broke out. And Al had to go process the crime scene, with the judge and the court reporter`s bodies still there, for photos, ultimately, one day for a jury.

Let me quickly go to Renee Rockwell. Renee, as of now, where does Nichols stand legally?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: My understanding is that the federal government has actually dropped the holding charges that were against him. The feds first put a possession of a firearm by a person under indictment -- which incidentally Georgia does not have a similar law.

GRACE: Yes, I was going to ask you that, Renee. I know we have got possession of a firemen by a convicted felon. But under indictment, if you`re not convicted yet, in most jurisdictions, you can have a gun.

ROCKWELL: That`s right. Now, he was not a convicted felon. But that was a federal charge. That was a holding charge. I think the feds have deferred to the state. They`ve dropped those charges. And it`s a matter of Brian Nichols being transferred back to Fulton County Jail, where right now, my understanding is the only charges that are pending against him are the rape charges. So we`re waiting for another rape trial. Are you ready for that?

GRACE: Correction: Rape, sodomy, aggravated assault. I guess there`s a kidnapping thrown in the pot.

ROCKWELL: That`s right. I`m sorry.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: OK, Miss Rockwell, you`re already trying to plea negotiate the thing down. Don`t -- don`t --

Let me quickly go to Gayle Abramson. Gayle, I`m so happy you`re with us tonight.

ABRAMSON: Happy to be here. It`s a good day to be alive, Nancy.

GRACE: Gayle, all the times I went into that very courtroom on the eighth floor to try cases, I mean, you know you`re dealing with desperate people. You know you`re dealing with violent felons. But did you ever think this guy was going to come looking for you?

ABRAMSON: Never, Nancy. And as you know, I`m sure, me being your legacy in those very courtrooms, those very courtrooms, never, never anticipate something like this would ever happen. I don`t think any of us did. Something like this is utterly tragic. None of us anticipated it.

GRACE: You know, Gayle, Julie was just up here in New York visiting.

ABRAMSON: I heard about that.

GRACE: I gave her a tour of Court TV. That was before I got my job here at Headline News at night. She saw the Empire State Building. We went out to all kind of fancy restaurants. She was calling her daughter on the phone the whole time telling her, you know, what she was doing. It must be an incredible blow. But everybody came back to the courthouse today, right? Business as usual?

ABRAMSON: Everyone did come back to the courthouse today. I believe that they did cancel court for the week. But there was a memorial service today, and everyone came back. There are several memorial services this week.

But, you know, Nancy, Julie was such a great person and a great friend. But she also, like you said, baked for the juries. This particular morning, there was a cake in the jury room awaiting the jurors when they got in.

GRACE: And, Al, didn`t you tell me, when you had -- there`s a shot of Julie. And that`s the way I will always remember her.

Al, when you processed the scene did you see all the goodies laid out that she had made?

AL DIXON, FULTON COUNTY DEPUTY D.A.: Yes, Nancy. They were in the jury room waiting on the jury to get there that morning. She had already had them on a tray and had them on the table, ready.

GRACE: Hey, Al, what`s next for this guy? I was very stunned the other night when you told me the feds were involved. We`ll all be retired and in the rest home before they move forward with anything.

DIXON: Well, Nancy, the federal government, the U.S. Attorney`s Office, had charged Nichols with possession of a firemen.

GRACE: Yes.

DIXON: That was just to hold him in federal custody, as a precautionary measure to protect Mr. Nichols and to make sure that there was a secure facility to house Mr. Nichols.

GRACE: Yes. I guess in light of the fact that the sheriff, the Fulton County sheriff, there was concern about other sheriffs guarding him. Point well taken, Al.

Let me go to Robert Higdon.

Elizabeth, do we have Robert with us now?

Mr. Higdon is a very dear friend of David Wilhelm. And we`ve heard very little about Mr. Wilhelm. He`s a federal agent. And he was gunned down by Brian Nichols, according to prosecutors, just minding his own business.

Robert, what happened to your friend?

ROBERT HIGDON, JR., ASST. U.S. ATTY.: Well, Nancy, I`m not exactly sure what happened. But what I`ve heard from your network and what I`ve heard from investigators in Atlanta was that David was minding his own business, doing what he often did in his off-working hours. He was building a home for he and his wife.

He was a very accomplished contractor. He built beautiful homes here in Charlotte, in Norfolk, Virginia, when he worked there and now in Atlanta. And he was minding his own business. But he was victim, like so many are around this country.

GRACE: Oh, gosh. Wait a minute. Was that his wife I just saw, saw him hugging a lady out in a -- oh, gosh. He`s leaving behind a widow, isn`t he?

HIGDON: He is. He`s leaving behind a very lovely lady who has been supportive of his 18-year law enforcement career. And I spoke with her today. And I tell you, she is one of the strongest ladies that I`ve ever met. And one of the things that she wanted me to pass along was to thank all of the law enforcement officers and all those that participated in this investigation and have been looking after her family and after the families of all the other victims who are involved in this horrible, horrible event.

GRACE: You know, looking at that shot of her with her husband -- everyone, we are talking to Robert Higdon. He`s an assistant U.S. attorney prosecutor in Raleigh, North Carolina, who knew this last alleged victim, Brian Nichols.

Hey, Renee Rockwell, we`ve got to go to a quick break. But speaking of law men down, Renee, you came out the steps and actually saw Sheriff Teasley laying there on the sidewalk.

ROCKWELL: That`s correct, Nancy. And my understanding is that he was feet away from Brian Nichols and just didn`t get a shot in. Brian got the best of him. And it`s very unfortunate. And my understanding is that his funeral`s on Friday. And there`s nothing quite as impressive as a law enforcement officer`s funeral when he was killed in the line of duty. It should be incredible.

GRACE: You know, Renee, I think if the had his choice he`d say, you keep the funeral, OK? I`d rather be amongst the living.

We`re going to go to break. But one thing Renee told me when she went up to the eighth floor that day, the elevator opened and the first thing she saw was a sheriff`s hat on the floor. She knew something was wrong.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: I told him that I was supposed to go see my little girl the next morning at 10:00. And I asked him if I could go see her. And he told me, "No." My husband died four years ago. And I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn`t have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARRY HAZEN, NICHOLS` DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I never saw Brian Nichols exhibit any aggressive behavior, either in the months leading up to the trial or during the trial. In fact, during the course of the second trial, if anything, he began to be more humorous, more easy-going.

SOLEDAD O`BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Respectful?

HAZEN: He was always respectful to me and to anyone else who was around him when I was in his presence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Objection, OK. That was Barry Hazen, Brian Nichols` defense attorney. And he told me to my face, this guy, Gayle Abramson, had two shanks with him. I mean, when he`s saying he didn`t see any aggressive behavior, I mean, we`ve already got a rape charge, a sodomy charge, an ag- assault charge, a possession of a machine gun, OK.

And then the guy has something like a hinge that he`s going to plan to use as a knife. Then, everybody, the other thing he had was a piece of metal with a hole in it with something wrapped through it so you could swing it and hit somebody with it.

Now, Gayle, correct me if I am wrong, but that sounds aggressive.

ABRAMSON: Absolutely, Nancy. And what it was was he had two door hinge-type shanks in his shoes. One of them with a hole in it had a piece of material that had been ripped off from a jail uniform tied through it. And what that can do is, it can be used to swing the implement around or can wrap it around the implement and use it as a knife. Now, before that, he had exhibited some behavior in the courtroom that he had to be admonished for.

GRACE: What?

ABRAMSON: And this is the kind of -- well, he had gotten up out of his seat a few different times.

GRACE: Oh, no. He did not. The defendant is not to get out of his seat during the proceedings.

ABRAMSON: Absolutely not. And Sergeant White admonished him. And he said to him, "Don`t let those clothes fool you. You are in my custody, and you will stay in that seat." And he just kind of got a look-back from Mr. Nichols, and the defendant tried to deny he ever got out of his seat. And we all saw it.

GRACE: So, who are we supposed to believe, him or our lying eyes? Which one?

ABRAMSON: Absolutely. I mean, we are supposed to believe our eyes.

GRACE: And Gayle, Gayle, it`s not just the defendant. I mean, even lawyers don`t get up, like when the other side is questioning or speaking to the jury, you don`t just get up and walk around the courtroom. That`s just not...

ABRAMSON: No, it`s no. It`s just courtroom decorum. You know, I mean, I`ve never seen a defendant get out of his chair, whether the defendant`s on bond or in custody.

And he got out of his chair. He had asked to speak with people in the courtroom and other things. I mean, he didn`t exhibit any violent behavior until the shanks were found in his shoes. But he certainly started to exhibit strange signs, which -- you know, and you bring up a good point about this mirror image thing. He starts with just kind of trying to establish trust with people. And it just escalates until he feels like he`s in control.

GRACE: You know, Al, the other night -- it was last night -- I was talking to the defense attorney, and they were talking about what`s going to happen with the rape charge. He`s got a whole lot more to worry about than 20 to life. Has Paul Howard, your district attorney, announced the death penalty?

DIXON: No, Nancy. That would be premature to do that until the case is indicted. But, as you said, I mean, Mr. Nichols has a lot more to worry about than the rape charge at this time.

GRACE: Yes, he sure does.

DIXON: That`s the least of his worries at this point.

GRACE: Hey, Gayle, when you first heard about the shootings, you were about 15 minutes probably away from that courtroom when the shootings went down. Rowland Barnes was having a civil calendar before Gayle came in to resume trying the rape and sodomy case.

Gayle, where were you?

ABRAMSON: Well, I was actually about a minute or less from the courtroom. And that`s because I was preparing to -- ironically to cross- examine the defendant that morning. So I was headed to the courtroom about a half an hour early to get myself ready. I had some visuals I needed to set up. And I was meeting with the victim and her family early that morning.

So I was about -- my office is a floor beneath the courtroom. And I was about headed out of my office towards the elevators to head into the courtroom.

GRACE: Your office is on seven?

ABRAMSON: My office is on the seventh floor, right beneath Judge Barnes` courtroom.

GRACE: Gayle, that used to be our appellate division when I was a prosecutor. So there were many an hour spent cracking the books in there, what is now your office.

Renee -- Renee Rockwell, defense attorney, is with us, as well -- tomorrow morning, Nichols has his first appearance in court. What do you expect to go down?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, I don`t know if he`s going to have this his first appearance in court because, remember now, the only charges that are pending against him formally are the rape, aggravated sodomy, the kidnapping, the ag-assault.

GRACE: It`s a status hearing.

ROCKWELL: OK. It`s a status hearing. It`s not the first appearance on any new charges.

GRACE: Yes.

ROCKWELL: But I wanted to mention something, because I was just looking at what Barry was saying about how Brian had -- Brian Nichols had sort of gotten to be a little more humorous and a little more jovial.

I think, Nancy, that he had decided at that point what he was going to do. This was absolutely something that was premeditated. Remember, he had been going back and forth over that bridge and he had decided what he was going to do.

GRACE: You know, before I go to break, Robert Higdon is with us. And one of the victims has gotten very little notice, because we know so little about him. David Wilhelm is a Customs agent. And his friend, Robert, is with us tonight. There`s a shot.

Robert, how long was David in law enforcement? Did you say 18 years?

HIGDON: I believe it was 18 years, Nancy.

GRACE: And, you know, that`s not an easy life, as you well know. You make practically nothing. You have to believe in what you`re doing. And you said he was working on his house at the time this guy came into his life?

HIGDON: That`s my understanding.

GRACE: Does he have any children?

HIGDON: He does not have any children, no, but he leaves his wife behind.

GRACE: Could you just tell me a little bit about him before we go to break?

HIGDON: Well, David was a wonderful guy. He was really the finest police officer, law enforcement agent, that I`ve met in the 15 years since that I`ve been a federal prosecutor.

He was a thorough officer. He was an honest one. He was one who left no stone unturned. But he didn`t forget when he was dealing with criminals that he was also dealing with human beings. And so he had the full package.

He was just a great human being. And he also conducted himself that way in private life. He was a hard worker when he was building these homes. He looked after his wife. He looked after his handicapped brother. He was very close to his parents.

You won`t meet anyone who knew David Wilhelm who didn`t just refer to him as a wonderful human being. And so he`s really going to be missed in the law enforcement community very badly.

GRACE: Robert, I just appreciate you speaking out on his behalf tonight. Robert Higdon is with us. He`s a prosecutor out of Carolina.

I want to thank my guests. And all of you work in that courthouse. I`m just so grateful that you`re here with us tonight. Renee Rockwell, my friend and colleague, defense attorney out of Atlanta, Gayle Abramson, the assistant D.A., who was trying that rape and sodomy case -- many people thought to a guilty verdict -- that day on the way to the courtroom. And last but not least, of course, Al Dixon, the deputy district attorney in Fulton County who processed the scene. All of you, thank you, friends.

As we go to break, to "Trial Tracking": Today, closing arguments in the Sarah Johnson double-murder trial. Her defense team still screaming, "No blood, no guilt." The prosecution lays out for the jury what they say was Johnson`s motive.

At the state`s request, the judge instructs the jury they can consider the lesser charge of aiding and abetting in her parents` double murder. They could consider that if they failed to convict on murder, if they don`t know whether Johnson pulled the trigger.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB PANGBURN, SARAH JOHNSON`S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: By doing what justice requires, by acquitting her, that it`s the end of the story. It`s not. Make them go find the real killers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police say the gunman fired 22 rounds before turning the gun at himself. The man identified by police as Terry Ratzmann was active in the church.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was a single man, 44, quiet but nice. No one would ever have even remotely thought that this could happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Tonight, to America`s heartland and the latest on the church shootings in Milwaukee. Dr. Charles Cady, he treated three of the victims. And the county district attorney, Paul Bucher. But first to WISN-TV reporter Kent Wainscott.

Welcome, Kent. What can you tell me as of tonight?

KENT WAINSCOTT, WISN-TV REPORTER: Well, we did get some new information in terms of the investigation, that authorities are looking through four computers that the shooter in this case, Terry Ratzmann had -- three at his home, one at his business. And police at this point are focusing on church-related issues as a possible motive. But at this point, they have no idea exactly what prompted him to open fire in the church service inside this Sheraton Hotel on Saturday.

GRACE: So no motive. They think it`s church-related, and they`re digging through his computer?

WAINSCOTT: They are. They searched the home. They removed three computers from the home, one from his place of business.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with Kent, as well as our other two guests. A devastating shooting in America`s heartland.

Here at NANCY GRACE, we want desperately to help find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Amarilis Roman, a runaway from Chicago, missing just one month. She`s only 14. Look at this girl. If you have any information on Amarilis Roman, please call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, 1-800-THE-LOST.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody, I`m Thomas Roberts. And this is your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

A public memorial ceremony will be held tomorrow for three people murdered at an Atlanta courthouse on Friday. Courthouse employees returned to work under heightened security this morning. Brian Nichols remains in jail accused of killing a judge, a court reporter and a sheriff`s deputy.

The battle over same-sex marriage takes a new turn in California. A San Francisco judge says it`s unconstitutional for the state to limit marriage to a union between a man and woman. The ruling is likely to be appealed at the State Supreme Court. If the ruling is upheld, California could follow Massachusetts in allowing gay couples to marry.

Well, neither ABC-TV nor the NFL will be getting into trouble with the FCC for this now-infamous opening segment on "Monday Night Football." Today, the FCC ruled the bit between Terrell Owens and Nicollette Sheridan was not sufficiently explicit or graphic to be deemed indecent.

And that is the news for now. I`m Thomas Roberts. We take you back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL BUCHER, WAUKESHA COUNTY D.A.: It`s just heartbreaking. It`s overwhelming. I keep saying that word. I`m not sure what other word to use. It`s human -- it`s just overwhelming. My heart goes out to the families of these individuals and witnesses that had to observe this, and the officers that have to deal with it. It`s not a pretty scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Twelve shot, eight dead. Let`s go straight out to Paul Bucher, the Waukesha County district attorney.

Welcome, Paul. Paul, did this guy have a criminal record?

BUCHER: No, Nancy. He didn`t have a criminal record. Frankly, he was never really on our radar screen. Didn`t know about the guy, never had any run-ins with him. And we kind of took him and shook him upside down, and nothing fell out. We just don`t know who the guy is.

GRACE: Wait a minute.

Hey, Elizabeth, show me that picture again. That`s the perpetrator. OK, he`s on the computer. Is he drinking a glass of milk? Is that what I`m seeing, Elizabeth? Yes, he`s having milk and cookies. OK, this is a 45-year-old guy that lives with his mother. Is that right, Paul?

BUCHER: He lives with his mother and his sister in a pretty nondescript, quiet neighborhood, two-story residence, really nothing specific.

GRACE: And let me go to Dr. Charles Cady. He treated three of the victims.

Many people say, if it had not been for your treatment and your facility, more people would have passed away. Three victims still in the hospital. Are they expected to recover?

DR. CHARLES CADY, TREATED VICTIMS GUNNED DOWN AT CHURCH SERVICE: Well, Nancy, one of them is in critical condition. Two are satisfactory. They are all expected to have full recoveries.

GRACE: Let me go to Kent Wainscott with WISN-TV.

Kent, do you think he specifically targeted these victims?

WAINSCOTT: Nancy, I asked police about that specifically today. They told me that there is an indication that he may have targeted some of the victims. The minister of this church, Randy Gregory, was killed in the shooting, as was his teenage son. His wife was shot and wounded, injured in the shooting. And police believe that he may have been targeting them and that the rest of the shooting victims may have just been victims of random gunfire in the room.

GRACE: Paul Bucher, the district attorney, I understand he used a nine millimeter?

BUCHER: Yes, a nine millimeter. That`s correct, a Beretta.

GRACE: And do you have to have a license for that, not that that would have changed anything. People can get guns at a gun show pretty easily. But do you have to have a license in that jurisdiction for a nine?

BUCHER: No, not in Wisconsin. You don`t need a license. We don`t register firearms. ATF did some really good work on the firearm pretty quick and turned it around. And he bought the firearm here locally.

GRACE: Gentlemen, thank you very much. Still no clear motive in a mass shooting in a house of worship.

Thank you to Paul Bucher, Kent Wainscott and Dr. Charles Cady, credited with saving the lives of some of the victims.

Switching gears tonight, from Tampa, defense attorney Joe Episcopo; in L.A., defense attorney David Wohl; here in New York, psychotherapist -- and boy do we need a shrink -- Robi Ludwig, and from Santa Maria, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

You know when you see Jane Velez-Mitchell, we`re talking about Michael Jackson.

Jane, I understand this boy is still on the stand, and apparently, he`s holding his own against Tom Mesereau, a veteran criminal defense lawyer.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Yes, it is a David and Goliath battle, Nancy. But some people think Goliath is winning at this point.

I have to tell you, this was a day of absolutely relentless grilling by the lead defense attorney, Thomas Mesereau, of this 15-year-old accuser. It didn`t stop. It went on for more than five hours.

And Mesereau did score some points. He got the boy to admit, for example, that he told his dean at his school twice that nothing happened between him and Michael Jackson. And the boy said this was after he left Neverland. So that was a big point. And there were several others like that. And it was just -- it continues on tomorrow.

GRACE: When you say several other points like that, what were they?

OK, wait a minute. Here`s Jackson. Let`s see. This is today. He has got his umbrella, his umbrella holder, his family, his family crest on his jacket, a vibrant red jacket. We have got the arm band, the entourage, the bodyguard. OK, we`re ready for court. Let`s go to court.

You know, Jane, he had on real shoes today, right? He didn`t have on those big fuzzy slippers again, did he?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He had cowboy boots on, or something that resembles cowboy boots. And sometimes he comes in sandals, sometimes he comes in slipper-type shoes, but today...

GRACE: Wait a minute. Michael Jackson, cowboy boots?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He was decked out. Cowboyish-boots.

GRACE: Cowboyish-boots.

Episcopo, sounds to me like we`re looking at an insanity defense. When did Michael Jackson dress up like a cowboy? Have I missed something?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, wait a minute. I want to correct you on something here. First of all, you`re saying this kid`s standing up to Mesereau.

GRACE: Yes.

EPISCOPO: He`s a seventh grader. None of his teachers like him. He shows off in the class.

GRACE: You could say that about a lot of seventh grade boys.

(CROSSTALK)

EPISCOPO: He challenges them. He tells the teachers that they don`t know how to teach him. You know what he is? He`s a lying little punk. I`m surprised he`s not chewing gum on the stand.

GRACE: You mean a lying little cancer patient who can probably have his testimony corroborated by Michael Jackson`s harddrive?

EPISCOPO: No. I think he might have it corroborated by his grandmother who told him it`s good to masturbate so that you don`t rape girls.

GRACE: Wait, now hold on. Jane Velez-Mitchell, I thought that`s what Jackson allegedly told him.

EPISCOPO: This is the second big point that Tom Mesereau scored today, pointing up inconsistencies in the boy`s statement. Last week, the boy testified that Michael Jackson told him if he didn`t masturbate he could get to the level where he might have to rape a girl. Well, today, Tom Mesereau said that the boy told sheriff`s investigators that his grandmother had told him that.

And the boy didn`t deny it. He said, well, they were both trying to tell me the same thing about the birds and bees. But Michael Jackson said I had to do it, and my grandmother said it was OK to do it. But what`s the likelihood of two people saying that...

GRACE: Yes.

EPISCOPO: ... same statement, which is quite a bizarre statement. That was another troublesome moment for the prosecution.

GRACE: That`s a problem. That`s a problem. Joe Episcopo is correct.

David Wohl, what do you have to say?

DAVID WOHL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, the big point apparently that Mesereau scored was that the boy didn`t tell his principal that he was molested. Now, let me see. He tells the principal, the next day the entire school knows about it, and his life is ruined.

Nancy, you know I`ve worked in juvenile court for the last 15 years, many times with little molest victims. It is traumatic. It is embarrassing. It`s horrifying for these kids to admit to talk about this issue, especially to males like myself. So I would have been more surprised if the boy actually said something to the principal.

There`s this issue of child abuse accommodation syndrome, also. The D.A. will bring in an expert to cover their behind on this one. And, believe me, the Mesereau score here isn`t nearly as strong as many people think it is.

GRACE: Robi Ludwig is with us.

Robi, what do you think about the fact he did not tell, I guess the equivalent of the principal of the school?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: You know, I agree with the lawyer. We`re saying that it`s very common for children of sexual abuse to be loyal to the person abusing them because they actually feel a connection to them.

GRACE: Isn`t it kind of a bond with them?

LUDWIG: They have a bond. They`re not being forced. They`re being manipulated. And, again, it is embarrassing.

So I don`t know if that in and of itself proves anything. But the fact that this child is cheeky, that he is not presented as a sympathetic character, that he has admitted to lying, that is going to be a problem because I know we have discussed this before. But there are cases of false sexual allegation. They exist.

GRACE: Yes, about 2 percent.

LUDWIG: I`m not sure about that.

GRACE: Statistics have shown. Maybe you have some different statistics.

LUDWIG: Well, I can tell you what I`ve found.

GRACE: Two to seven percent of all rape and all child molestation cases are proved to be false accusations. So if you want to believe that this kid falls into that 2 to 7 percent, I guess that will be up to the jury.

LUDWIG: Well, that`s true. But it is possible. And when they find, in cases where there is false allegation, it tends to be in divorce cases where the mother is enraged with the father. And somehow, through the questioning of the child, somehow hears things in a certain way or is so angry is that that encourages the child to come out with this story.

And I just have to say, it`s just as damaging for the child, whether it happened or not, if they`re repeating this story. It`s almost like it happened, whether it did or didn`t happen in these kind of cases.

GRACE: They get in their heads that it happened.

LUDWIG: Yes.

GRACE: We`re going to go straight back out to California and Jane Velez-Mitchell when we get back. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER: I love my community and I have great faith in our justice system. Please keep an open mind and let me have my day in court. I deserve a fair trial like every other American citizen. I will be acquitted and vindicated when the truth is told. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I feel totally at home with them. I can talk to them one- on-one because they don`t judge you, you know, they`re not looking for anything. They just want to have some fun, you know? And that`s the same with myself. And I can connect to that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You`re seeing a rebuttal documentary that was made by a Michael Jackson staffer.

Back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice," Jane, is the jury getting a little sick of watching that defense rebuttal video? How many times have they seen it, and in slow-mo?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s being played ad nauseam, and it`s making everybody crazy. I went over to the overflow room where the press can really talk. And you wouldn`t believe the hoots and the hollers. People are really sick of it. Presumably the jury is sick of it, too. But it is scoring points for the defense.

Now, Tom Mesereau plays a little bit of it. And, of course, the whole family, the accuser and his family, are gushing over Michael Jackson. Then he stops the tape and goes, "Are you lying or are you telling the truth?"

Now, the boy is in a quandary. If he says he`s lying, then he`s a liar. But if he says he`s telling the truth, then he`s undermining the conspiracy case because Michael Jackson`s this wonderful guy. So it`s a no-win situation for this kid.

And I have to wonder why the prosecution isn`t jumping up more and objecting. Even people who are pro-prosecution are saying at this point that Tom Sneddon has to get more pro-active and on redirect, when he gets a chance to re-question this boy, set up a lot of the things that have been mentioned on this very program, like, well, why didn`t you tell the dean? Were you embarrassed? Those kinds of things. I don`t think they can wait for experts to come in, because it`s just too damaging.

GRACE: Yes, I was just about to ask you, David Wohl, the state has to bring on a psychologist or a psychiatrist to explain to a jury why often child molestation victims don`t speak out, much less to some person at school they hardly know, much less to someone like a principal. No, no, no, no, that is not uncommon at all, David.

WOHL: No, Nancy, it`s not, especially with boys. There`s some sort of stigma attached to being molested.

Now, with all due respect to Jane, I disagree. There was option number three. I`m saying this on tape on the rebuttal video because Jackson and his thugs are telling me if I don`t say it I`ll never leave Neverland. If I do, I`ll end up in Brazil. I might get my mother knocked off. I mean, that is the prosecution`s point, is this was a coerced tape.

Now, will Jackson take the stand and explain the production of this tape when it`s his turn, explain why it took place right after the initial video, explain his motivation? I kind of think not.

GRACE: What do you think, Joe Episcopo, Jackson on the stand? I say no way.

EPISCOPO: Yes, I think it would be great for him, because I think they would understand what he is like. But let`s get back to the kid for a minute...

GRACE: Wait, so you`re saying he will take the stand, Jackson?

EPISCOPO: I think it would be good. But I want to talk about the kid for a minute.

GRACE: OK.

EPISCOPO: You`re trying to make him out to be a little fearful wimp. He`s standing up to every teacher in the classroom.

GRACE: No, I`m not making him out to be a wimp.

EPISCOPO: He`s calling them out.

GRACE: He`s a 15-year-old boy.

EPISCOPO: He`s a punk.

GRACE: I don`t think that`s fair, Joe, to call this kid a punk.

EPISCOPO: Well, I think he is.

GRACE: Why? Because you don`t like the way he`s testifying?

EPISCOPO: Because of the way he behaves in the classroom, nobody can teach him.

GRACE: OK, you know what? Let`s go to the source on that.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, was he portrayed as a punk? Would you go that far?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: He`s talks back and he is a smart-aleck. And you know...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, I`ve got a question. Everybody on this panel better think back to when they were in the seventh grade.

LUDWIG: I have a theory about it, though. I wonder, though, if he`s talking back to all the authority figures that he can get away with it. He can`t get away with talking like that to his mother, so he lets it out to all the adults around him. That is one very serious possibility.

GRACE: And that`s not the only thing, Robi. When kids have been molested...

LUDWIG: That`s true.

GRACE: ... they act out.

Listen, when I would get a child molestation victim -- and I know maybe I`m projecting my victims on to this kid -- but their grades go down. They act out. They cut school. They misbehave. There is a drastic hairpin turn in their behavior.

And all of this -- Episcopo, this doesn`t mean a darn thing if this kid acted out at school. To me, that reinforces the claim of molestation.

EPISCOPO: Nancy, even the allegations are not much molestation, if you really look at it. What did he say? He`s touched him twice. That`s no big deal. There`s no sex here.

GRACE: No, no. No, no. That`s not true. That`s not true. He doesn`t say, "He touched me." He said he had his hands on the boy`s genitals, that he showed this kid X-rated pornography and got the kid drunk. Now, to you, that may not be serious, but where I come from, buddy, that is a felony.

EPISCOPO: I know. But the way you`re trying to portray him as somebody who is acting out. There`s no sodomy. There`s no oral sex. Come on. It`s not as extensive.

GRACE: So that`s your defense, there was no sodomy? OK, you know what?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: No, you need to rest your case right there.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, did you hear that? The defense is, there was no sodomy?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, I think one of the reasons this boy may be acting out is because he was supposedly taunted at school after the Bashir documentary aired. And he was being called names that we can`t really repeat on television right now.

And that could be one of the reasons why he was having all these fights and all these disciplinary problems. This kid has been through hell. Nobody would deny that. He had cancer. He was given chemotherapy for more than a year. So all of that could have led to these disciplinary problems.

GRACE: Jane, at one juncture, I think it was today, Mesereau asked this boy, was his handle, his, you know, name on AOL, or computer, "Gay Blade," and the boy got all upset and embarrassed. There was an objection. What happened?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that was a time when the prosecution jumped up and objected vigorously and said this is not supposed to be included in the testimony. You`ve ruled on this, judge. And the judge said, "Absolutely." But see that`s the kind of little bombshell that Tom Mesereau drops without any substantiation but it sticks in the craw.

GRACE: That`s so wrong to do to a boy on -- to suggest in front of the jury that his nickname is "Gay Blade." What did the kid do?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, there were suggestions this boy masturbated when Michael Jackson wasn`t there, that he stole a $1,000 laminated bill. And he said, "I didn`t even know they made $1,000 bills." That he broke into a closet and stole alcohol. There were a lot of unsubstantiated claims.

GRACE: With us at the courthouse, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

A quick break. Tonight, I want to give you the latest as we go to break on little Jessie Lunsford. Remember the 9-year-old Florida girl? She went missing last month. About five dozen volunteers continue searching for Jessie. They searched all weekend. As of tonight, nothing. Not even a clue. Jessica`s mother has made the decision to return home to Cincinnati after attempts to locate Jessie have failed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOTHER OF JESSICA LUNSFORD: It`s not hard to hold on to hope, because, you know, I have got God. That`s all that matters. You know, he`ll bring her home to me one way or the other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Jessica`s father, however, is not giving up. Jessie disappeared from her home while her grandparents slept down the hall.

Jessie, where are you?

Local news next for some of you. We`ll be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of Michael Jackson, the Robert Blake verdict watch, Sarah Johnson verdict watch, tomorrow 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, call 1-888-GRACE-01, 472-2301, or visit the Web site CNN.com/NancyGrace.

Very quickly, before we sign off, Jane Velez-Mitchell out in California, what happens tomorrow?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Defense attorney Tom Mesereau continues his cross- examination of the accuser. And then when he`s done, Tom Sneddon, the district attorney, does redirect. And the general consensus is, Tom Sneddon needs to make some points tomorrow on redirect with this boy and undo some of the damage and rehabilitate this witness. It could be the most crucial moment of the trial. And we`ll have to wait and see if he does it.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, can you pass on some advice, since he didn`t ask, to the prosecutor for me tomorrow? Will you tell him to get up and object? Don`t sit there on your thumb, do something.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: If you`re watching, Tom, you heard it from Nancy.

GRACE: I`m sure he`ll like to hear that from you.

Hey, Jane, thanks so much. Everybody, I want to thank all of my guests earlier, my Atlanta guests and our Milwaukee guests. And tonight, Jane Velez-Mitchell from "Celebrity Justice," she`s there at the courthouse. Veteran criminal defense attorney, my sparring buddy, Joe Episcopo. His defense tonight is, hey, there was no sodomy.

OK. I know you`ll get me back next time, Joe.

And to David Wohl, my friend in California, defense attorney there. Robi Ludwig -- excuse me -- Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist here in New York.

But my biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with us tonight and inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, the latest headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Erica Hill with your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Michael Jackson`s accuser admitted to some conflicting statements today under tough questioning. He said he once told a school official that nothing sexual happened with Jackson but gave no explanation for the denial. In previous testimony, he accused Jackson of molesting him on two occasions at the singer`s Neverland ranch.

Former President Bill Clinton is back at home. He left a New York hospital today, four days after surgery to remove fluid and scar tissue from his lungs. Doctors expect him to continue resting at home for another four to six weeks.

And indispensable or annoying? A new survey explores our feelings about cell phones and the people who use them. We`ll get to the bottom of it all when Mike Galanos and I join you for "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT," next.

END