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American Morning
Courthouse Shooting Suspect Going Back Before Judge Today; Bombshell in Michael Jackson Trial
Aired March 15, 2005 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols going back before a judge today. The first order of business is dropping charges against him.
New questions about the massive manhunt for the Atlanta killer. Did authorities make mistakes at nearly every turn?
The bombshell in the Michael Jackson trial. The accuser admits he told a school official Jackson never touched him. He faces more tough questioning, on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING, with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome everybody. Bill Hemmer's got the day off.
Jack Cafferty helping us out. Thank you very much. Appreciate that.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. You're welcome.
O'BRIEN: Ashley smith, we talked about her a lot yesterday. She was facing the media again last night. She has a message for the victims' families. She also spoke with one of her former pastors. He's known her since she was a child. He's our guest this morning.
CAFFERTY: Also coming up, we're going to talk to the lawyer for one of the two retired New York City cops, accused of moonlighting for the mafia and murdering people in their spare time.
O'BRIEN: Carol Costello's going to have our Question of the Day, since you're in for Bill. Carol's going to help us out on that front.
But first, let's talk about 33-year-old Brian Nichols. He, of course, is the suspect in the Atlanta courthouse killings. He's being held in the Fulton County jail under maximum security. At 10:00 this morning, he's expected to have a status hearing, not at the courthouse, where the killings took place, but right there in the jail, and that is where CNN's Kimberly Osias joins with us more.
Good morning, Kimberly.
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And good morning to you, Soledad. Well, this status hearing is basically a perfunctory hearing. Thirty-three-year-old Brian Nichols will hear the charges against him. He will be advised of his legal right to representation. He is here in the Fulton County Jail on the seventh floor. That is the maximum- security floor. And later this morning, he will move down to hear those charges against him.
Well, last night, a very moving account from Ashley Smith. Of course she's the hostage that we have been hearing quite a bit about, and Ashley Smith really spoke out, saying that her heart goes out to the victims.
And here's a little more about Brian Nichols.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OSIAS (voice-over): Thirty-three-year-old accused murderer Brian Nichols will appear before a magistrate for the first time since his alleged murder spree. This time, he's expected to be flanked by several sheriff's deputies. The federal firearm charge has been dropped, allowing the state of Georgia, a death penalty state, to file murder charges.
PAUL HOWARD, FULTON CO. DISTRICT ATTY.: We plan to charge him with the murders of the four Fulton County residents. We plan to charge him with a number of aggravated assaults, carjackings. It's going to be a very large indictment.
OSIAS: Nichols' arrest was a result of the quick thinking and calm demeanor of 26-year-old Ashley Smith. She was holed up with Nichols for almost eight hours, developed a trusting rapport that enabled her to escape and call 911.
Listen to this police conversation on the scanner we obtained from the Web site www.scangwinette.com.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim is advising that he is in the apartment at this time. There are three weapons underneath the bed. She's advising he's wanting to turn himself in to us at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OSIAS: Last night, an emotional Smith appeared before the media to say thank you, and offer her condolences for the four victims.
ASHLEY SMITH, FMR. HOSTAGE: I also want to extend my deepest sympathies to the families of Judge Barnes, Julie Ann Brandau, deputy Teasley, and special agent Wilhelm. As well as my prayers for deputy Hall, who is fighting for her life right now in the hospital.
OSIAS: Smith, who will be a witness in the trial, also asked the public to respect her privacy, while she focuses on helping the investigation against Brian Nichols.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
OSIAS: Obviously, this is a tragedy that has affected much of the city of Atlanta. Later, there will be a public memorial service at noon at the courthouse -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Kimberly Osias reporting for us. Kimberly, thanks -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Brian Nichols is currently being held on rape, sodomy and false-imprisonment charges, the charges he was already on trial for at the time of the shootings. Meanwhile, prosecutors are still working on the charges against Nichols in conjunction with the Friday killings.
CNN's senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, and part-time Question of the Day correspondent, is here to help us sort through -- you did a great job yesterday.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Thank you, sir.
CAFFERTY: There's SOME discussion that my position may be in jeopardy.
TOOBIN: I did not hear that, any such discussion.
CAFFERTY: What's going to happen at the court appearance this morning?
TOOBIN: It's really just kind of a place-holding situation. You have bail will be set, and here is a quiz. Do you think he's going to get out on bail? I don't think so. Bail will be set. He'll be assigned a lawyer. He'll probably switch lawyers to the public defender's office. And basically the status quo will be maintained. Nothing much will happen. I anticipate it will be less than 15 minutes.
CAFFERTY: Now the authorities say it could be 30 days before a formal along list of charges is brought against this man. Why does it take this long?
TOOBIN: Well, that's actually not all that uncommon. When you just arrest someone, you put some charge just to have bail to be set. But then the investigation has to take place about what precise charges will be brought. And, in fact that can continue for more than 30 days, in fact, for many months. And this will be an investigation of some complexity, given the sheer number of crimes that he's likely to be charged with. So this is a process that's only going to get started today and will probably last several months.
CAFFERTY: Beginning with the assault on the deputy, I mean, they could have 50, 100 charges against this guy.
TOOBIN: I mean, they could have a lot of different charges. And also, they're in different places. The chronology of his activities will not be easy to reconstruct. You have a lot of different witnesses. You have some time where he's not accounted for. I mean, that's going to take the deputies a long time.
CAFFERTY: The reason he was in the courthouse to begin with, of course, was the rape case that was pending against him. The first attempt at conviction ended in a mistrial. The second trial was underway. Now they've declared a mistrial in that trial. Why?
TOOBIN: They really had no choice. Remember, the judge is dead, and it's very difficult to bring a judge in, in the middle of a trial. Also, you have everybody involved in the trial severely traumatized, obviously, by what went on. So this leaves the prosecution with the option of retrying the case down the road, but it may simply not take place if, in fact, he's convicted of all these other more serious charges. It may simply not be worth the expense and the disruption to try him on what are lesser charges.
CAFFERTY: Very good. Thank you, counselor.
CNN's senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Ashley Smith, the woman Brian Nichols took hostage in her own home, spoke to the media last night and downplayed her role as a hero helping to capture him. Instead, Smith said, the real heroes are those who died. She also talked about how her faith in God got her through the time held captive.
Pastor Frank Page has known her since her childhood. He joins us from Greer, in South Carolina this morning.
Nice to see you, sir. Thank you very much for talking with us.
I know you've had an opportunity to talk to Ashley Smith. How is she doing? It's been a very, very tough time, obviously, for her.
PASTOR FRANK PAGE, ASHLEY SMITH'S FMR. PASTOR: Good morning, Soledad.
And she is very, very tired. She's emotionally drained, as the whole family certainly are at this time. She's doing well. She's just, she feels like she's an ordinary person caught up in extremely extraordinary circumstances. So given all the circumstances, she's doing well, but she's trying to recuperate just a little bit right now from all the attention that she's not accustomed to.
O'BRIEN: Yes, I would imagine. I'd also imagine that the impact of what happened to her, I mean, being held hostage for a long time, has sort of finally sinking in, and she's kind of getting the bigger understanding of that. I know she says she's not a hero. What do you think?
PAGE: Well, I think that term is widely used and little understood. She doesn't see herself that way. She told me yesterday that she -- after the initial shock of being taken hostage and pleading for her life, she began to realize that she was not going to be harmed, and at that point she said she felt that God had just filled her up inside and enabled her to be able to be someone that could be used by him, so she felt she was God's instrument, and she was safe at that point, and she was able to trust him and he her. And so she doesn't see herself as an extraordinary person. She is a simple, ordinary person with a strong faith.
O'BRIEN: Your description is very much the message of "The Purpose Driven Life," which is a book that she says was very important in her communication with Brian Nichols. It's also a book that you gave her not that long ago, just a couple of weeks ago. When you hear something like that, do you think, well, that's coincidence, or do you think it's sort of a greater power at work in this sort of thing?
PAGE: Well, Soledad, first of all, it was given to her by another pastor, a friend of mine. But I love that book. Rick Warren did a phenomenal job in it. And I just believe this was part of God's plan. Because can you imagine, here is a situation out of control, absolutely crazy, and here is a young lady who has gone through difficulties in her life, and she's able to work with a man who is obviously gone through much, and going through much, and God had prepared her, and part of that preparation, just a part of it, is the reading of "The Purpose Driven Life," and so she was able to read to him from that, as well as from the Bible.
And so I think it was not coincidence. I think it was a God thing. She believes that and sees that, that God was able to use the preparation that was already going on in her life to be able to help diffuse a situation and probably, possibly, hopefully save many more lives.
O'BRIEN: Pastor Frank Page joining us this morning. I know you've known her for a long time. Certainly, it's been a tough time for her, so I'll help you'll pass along that we hope she is recovering from all this well, and getting some of the well-needed and well- deserved rest that she needs.
Thank you, sir. Appreciate your time.
PAGE: I will do that. Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Coming up in our next half hour, we're going to talk to a former hostage negotiator about what he thinks Ashley Smith did right, and what she might have done wrong while Brian Nichols held her captive -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Michael Jackson's accuser will be back on the witness stand today. Jackson's lawyer picked apart the 15-year-old boy's testimony during five hours of cross-examination on Monday.
Miguel Marquez is covering the trial.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael, how are you feeling today?
MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: In pain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How'd you think things went today.
JACKSON: Mesereau did a great job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Michael Jackson, still in pain from a bad back, but he's feeling good about his lawyer and his case.
RAYMONE BAIN, JACKSON SPOKESWOMAN: This is a long, long trial. And he's happy that the momentum seems to be moving in his direction right now.
MARQUEZ: Jackson's teenage accuser testified after the Jackson documentary aired, the dean of his school took him aside and asked whether Jackson ever did anything inappropriate to him. The boy said no.
But are the victims of sexual assault always forthcoming?
JIM HAMMER, FMR. PROSECUTOR: The typical course for a child assault victim is to deny it ever happened, then to tell little bits of it, and then finally, the full story comes out.
MARQUEZ: The boy also testified that he never talked to Jay Leno. The defense says the late-night comedian filed a police report after the boy and his mother called him to ask for money.
MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If Leno comes into this courtroom and says, in fact he did have a conversation with the alleged victim, it's going to be pivotal testimony to this particular case.
MARQUEZ: So far, the accuser and his siblings have given vague and sometimes conflicting accounts of when and how the alleged molestations happened at Jackson's Neverland Ranch.
(on camera): The cross-examination of Michael Jackson's 15-year- old accuser will continue later today.
Miguel Marquez, CNN, Santa Maria, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CAFFERTY: The timing issue could in fact be critical, because the four counts of committing a lewd act on a child, charged in Jackson's indictment, had to have taken place between February 20th and March 12th, 2003.
(WEATHER REPORT)
CAFFERTY: Pandemonium in the deadly hotel shooting caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CALLER: This is a massacre. He was very depressed. Oh, my. He just started shooting. We were sitting, all sitting during services.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAFFERTY: Chilling new 911 tapes revealing what happened in Wisconsin.
O'BRIEN: Also, a new anthrax alert at two separate mail centers. We've got latest on that, ahead this morning.
CAFFERTY: And two New York City cops, charged with moonlighting as hitmen for the mob. One of their lawyers explains why he thinks his client is innocent. It's coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Dreams, and prayers and calls for help are on the 911 tapes recorded after the church service shooting in Wisconsin. Seven people and the gunman were killed in the space of just one minute on Saturday. Several people called from the suburban Milwaukee hotel where the shootings took place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CALLER: Oh, my. Oh, no! Oh, no! Oh, no, (INAUDIBLE) is dead. Oh, no, oh, no. Oh, no, there are at least -- how many are on the floor? Five to 10? Five to 10 at least. Oh, OK. It's Wisconsin room in the back. Is anybody on their way?
DISPATCHER: Oh, yes, we're sending people right now. I'm going to keep you on the line now.
CALLER: Yes, I'm right in the back. I'm at the back door.
Oh, my, one of my friends is laying on the floor. I think she's dead.
Oh, this is awful. This is a massacre. He was very depressed. Oh, my. He just started shooting. We were sitting, all sitting during services.
DISPATCHER: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Church members identified the gunman in their calls. 44-year-old Terry Ratzmann belonged to the congregation. Police think Ratzmann may have been targeting the pastor's family. The pastor and his son were killed, the pastor's wife was wounded -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: An anthrax alert in the Pentagon's mail is in our CNN Security Watch this morning. Sensors flagged the deadly bacteria at two separate military mail centers.
Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon now.
Barbara, what's the current situation? BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Jack.
Well, Pentagon and local health and law enforcement officials say that these two facilities do remain closed this morning while they try to determine what set off anthrax sensors in those buildings over the last few days.
Now, hundreds of employees were kept on site last night until they could be given information about anthrax exposure. Nasal swabs were taken as part of a test to see if anyone had actually been exposed to the agent. Hundreds of employees also given the opportunity to take three days of antibiotics.
So far, no word that anyone is actually experiencing the illness. But let's talk about these facilities. One of them, right here at the Pentagon. It is a remote delivery facility, right next to the building. It was built particularly so that mail packages, freight coming into the Pentagon could be screened for just this type of problem before it entered the building.
There was a test last Thursday in which the sensor was -- pardon me. The sensor had a positive reading last Thursday. They conducted additional field tests yesterday. It came back negative at that point, and so now a third round of testing is being conducted.
The other site is a complex of three buildings, three commercial buildings, a few miles from here in the Pentagon, here in northern Virginia. That is also a mail-handling facility for the Pentagon. They had a positive reading there over the last few days. The same thing is being done. They are doing more testing to try and figure out exactly what's going on -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: What do they think is going on? It's been a while since anthrax has been in the news. What's their best guess as to what might be happening here?
STARR: Well, there's two possibilities, which is, of course, that it might be an actual positive reading, that somehow anthrax got into the building through the mail. But they are also very seriously looking at the notion that this was another false positive, if you will. They've had many instances in the past where these sensors, which are extremely sensitive, get set off, they do several rounds of testing, and then determine it was a false positive. Everyone hopes that's going to be the case, but they're going to be very cautious, conduct another round of testing and make sure -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: All right, thanks, Barbara. Barbara Starr live at the Pentagon.
Stay with CNN day and night for the most reliable news on your security.
O'BRIEN: One of the world's smallest cities is also considered the safest. According to a new survey, Luxembourg City is the world's top city for personal safety and security. It's followed by Helsinki in Finland, and Bern, Geneva and Zurich, all of which are in Switzerland. The survey says the safest cities in the United States are Honolulu, Houston, Lexington, Kentucky, San Francisco and Winston- Salem in North Carolina.
CAFFERTY: Another high-profile CEO shown the door. Andy shares the reason behind this latest corporate shakeup. He's minding your business, next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAFFERTY: Pressure from investigators proved to be too much for the CEO of insurance giant AIG. He's out of here. Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business," plus a look at the markets.
Good morning.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Good morning to you, Jack.
You know, it's another day and another CEO ousted. We've seen this time and time again this year. This time, it's Maurice Hank Greenberg, who's the CEO of AIG, as Jack mentioned. It's the nation's 10th largest company, the largest insurance company in the United States. He locked horns with New York state attorney general Eliot Spitzer. Spitzer was investigating a transaction he considered that the company did not properly account for. And this gentleman, Hank Greenberg, built this company into a giant, giant force on Wall Street.
Interestingly, Spitzer forced out Greenberg's son, Jeffrey Greenberg, who was the head of Marsh & McLennan.
Let's also go and look at some of the other people who've lost their jobs, other CEOs this year. Yesterday, of course, Michael Eisner at Disney. Before that Carly Fiorina. Harry Stonecipher at Boeing. Who can forget that story. Greenberg, we've talked about, and the gentleman Christopher Milliken at OfficeMax. Franklin Raines at Fannie Mae in late December as well.
And what's going on here, Jack, of course, is that boards are no longer rubber stamping these guys. They're being responsibility. They're being assertive. If they see the CEO involved in wrongdoing, or even questionable behavior, they're say it's time to look for a new head of this company.
CAFFERTY: About time, don't you think? Greenberg's stock holdings, I read, $2.3 billion worth of stock in AIG. The stock is up a multiple of 100 times since the late '60s when he got the company.
SERWER: Truly a juggernaut on wall street, one of the most powerful people down there.
O'BRIEN: Seventy-nine years old, right? Wow.
SERWER: Held on to power for a long time.
O'BRIEN: Thanks, Andy.
SERWER: You're welcome.
O'BRIEN: OK, so Bill Hemmer's on vacation. So Jack's filling in for Bill, Carol's filling in for Jack. She's got the Question of the Day.
SERWER: Musical chairs.
O'BRIEN: I've explained it all. I've brought you all up to speed.
Good morning.
COSTELLO: I don't think I can do this justice, but I'm going to try.
CAFFERTY: Of course you can.
O'BRIEN: No pressure from this corner.
SERWER: We're watching, Carol.
COSTELLO: I'm going to try to be as surly as I possibly can.
You know Jack deserves that. Look at that little smile.
The topic today, Halliburton. Guess what? It may have overcharged the United States, that would be us, $100 million. That is an insane amount of money. According to a Pentagon audit, Halliburton charged over $27 million to deliver $82,000 of gas. Auditors called that illogical. Halliburton's initial contract with the U.S. government was worth $2.5 billion. That contract is now complete, but the company continues to work on other projects in Iraq, despite that Pentagon audit that says it's ripped off U.S. taxpayers for $100 million.
So here's our question for you this morning, should Halliburton give up its government contracts in Iraq? E-mail us, am@CNN.com.
O'BRIEN: And I wonder who fills in if indeed they do step back. I mean, obviously, they're there because there's a big gap of who's going to fill in.
SERWER: Yes, that's a good question.
COSTELLO: And the other thing to keep in mind, it's dangerous to do work over there. Dozens of Halliburton employees have died doing work over there. So that's why Halliburton says that it has to inflate its costs somewhat. That's another factor.
O'BRIEN: We'll see what viewers have to say. Thanks, Carol.
Well, two former New York City cops charged with being hit men for the mob. What's their defense? We're going to talk to one of their lawyers just ahead.
O'BRIEN: Also, a CNN exclusive, inside the manhunt for Brian Nichols, tough questions on how local law officials let him elude their grasp for 26 hours. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
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Aired March 15, 2005 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Courthouse shooting suspect Brian Nichols going back before a judge today. The first order of business is dropping charges against him.
New questions about the massive manhunt for the Atlanta killer. Did authorities make mistakes at nearly every turn?
The bombshell in the Michael Jackson trial. The accuser admits he told a school official Jackson never touched him. He faces more tough questioning, on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING, with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome everybody. Bill Hemmer's got the day off.
Jack Cafferty helping us out. Thank you very much. Appreciate that.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. You're welcome.
O'BRIEN: Ashley smith, we talked about her a lot yesterday. She was facing the media again last night. She has a message for the victims' families. She also spoke with one of her former pastors. He's known her since she was a child. He's our guest this morning.
CAFFERTY: Also coming up, we're going to talk to the lawyer for one of the two retired New York City cops, accused of moonlighting for the mafia and murdering people in their spare time.
O'BRIEN: Carol Costello's going to have our Question of the Day, since you're in for Bill. Carol's going to help us out on that front.
But first, let's talk about 33-year-old Brian Nichols. He, of course, is the suspect in the Atlanta courthouse killings. He's being held in the Fulton County jail under maximum security. At 10:00 this morning, he's expected to have a status hearing, not at the courthouse, where the killings took place, but right there in the jail, and that is where CNN's Kimberly Osias joins with us more.
Good morning, Kimberly.
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And good morning to you, Soledad. Well, this status hearing is basically a perfunctory hearing. Thirty-three-year-old Brian Nichols will hear the charges against him. He will be advised of his legal right to representation. He is here in the Fulton County Jail on the seventh floor. That is the maximum- security floor. And later this morning, he will move down to hear those charges against him.
Well, last night, a very moving account from Ashley Smith. Of course she's the hostage that we have been hearing quite a bit about, and Ashley Smith really spoke out, saying that her heart goes out to the victims.
And here's a little more about Brian Nichols.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OSIAS (voice-over): Thirty-three-year-old accused murderer Brian Nichols will appear before a magistrate for the first time since his alleged murder spree. This time, he's expected to be flanked by several sheriff's deputies. The federal firearm charge has been dropped, allowing the state of Georgia, a death penalty state, to file murder charges.
PAUL HOWARD, FULTON CO. DISTRICT ATTY.: We plan to charge him with the murders of the four Fulton County residents. We plan to charge him with a number of aggravated assaults, carjackings. It's going to be a very large indictment.
OSIAS: Nichols' arrest was a result of the quick thinking and calm demeanor of 26-year-old Ashley Smith. She was holed up with Nichols for almost eight hours, developed a trusting rapport that enabled her to escape and call 911.
Listen to this police conversation on the scanner we obtained from the Web site www.scangwinette.com.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The victim is advising that he is in the apartment at this time. There are three weapons underneath the bed. She's advising he's wanting to turn himself in to us at this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OSIAS: Last night, an emotional Smith appeared before the media to say thank you, and offer her condolences for the four victims.
ASHLEY SMITH, FMR. HOSTAGE: I also want to extend my deepest sympathies to the families of Judge Barnes, Julie Ann Brandau, deputy Teasley, and special agent Wilhelm. As well as my prayers for deputy Hall, who is fighting for her life right now in the hospital.
OSIAS: Smith, who will be a witness in the trial, also asked the public to respect her privacy, while she focuses on helping the investigation against Brian Nichols.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
OSIAS: Obviously, this is a tragedy that has affected much of the city of Atlanta. Later, there will be a public memorial service at noon at the courthouse -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Kimberly Osias reporting for us. Kimberly, thanks -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Brian Nichols is currently being held on rape, sodomy and false-imprisonment charges, the charges he was already on trial for at the time of the shootings. Meanwhile, prosecutors are still working on the charges against Nichols in conjunction with the Friday killings.
CNN's senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, and part-time Question of the Day correspondent, is here to help us sort through -- you did a great job yesterday.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SR. LEGAL ANALYST: Thank you, sir.
CAFFERTY: There's SOME discussion that my position may be in jeopardy.
TOOBIN: I did not hear that, any such discussion.
CAFFERTY: What's going to happen at the court appearance this morning?
TOOBIN: It's really just kind of a place-holding situation. You have bail will be set, and here is a quiz. Do you think he's going to get out on bail? I don't think so. Bail will be set. He'll be assigned a lawyer. He'll probably switch lawyers to the public defender's office. And basically the status quo will be maintained. Nothing much will happen. I anticipate it will be less than 15 minutes.
CAFFERTY: Now the authorities say it could be 30 days before a formal along list of charges is brought against this man. Why does it take this long?
TOOBIN: Well, that's actually not all that uncommon. When you just arrest someone, you put some charge just to have bail to be set. But then the investigation has to take place about what precise charges will be brought. And, in fact that can continue for more than 30 days, in fact, for many months. And this will be an investigation of some complexity, given the sheer number of crimes that he's likely to be charged with. So this is a process that's only going to get started today and will probably last several months.
CAFFERTY: Beginning with the assault on the deputy, I mean, they could have 50, 100 charges against this guy.
TOOBIN: I mean, they could have a lot of different charges. And also, they're in different places. The chronology of his activities will not be easy to reconstruct. You have a lot of different witnesses. You have some time where he's not accounted for. I mean, that's going to take the deputies a long time.
CAFFERTY: The reason he was in the courthouse to begin with, of course, was the rape case that was pending against him. The first attempt at conviction ended in a mistrial. The second trial was underway. Now they've declared a mistrial in that trial. Why?
TOOBIN: They really had no choice. Remember, the judge is dead, and it's very difficult to bring a judge in, in the middle of a trial. Also, you have everybody involved in the trial severely traumatized, obviously, by what went on. So this leaves the prosecution with the option of retrying the case down the road, but it may simply not take place if, in fact, he's convicted of all these other more serious charges. It may simply not be worth the expense and the disruption to try him on what are lesser charges.
CAFFERTY: Very good. Thank you, counselor.
CNN's senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Ashley Smith, the woman Brian Nichols took hostage in her own home, spoke to the media last night and downplayed her role as a hero helping to capture him. Instead, Smith said, the real heroes are those who died. She also talked about how her faith in God got her through the time held captive.
Pastor Frank Page has known her since her childhood. He joins us from Greer, in South Carolina this morning.
Nice to see you, sir. Thank you very much for talking with us.
I know you've had an opportunity to talk to Ashley Smith. How is she doing? It's been a very, very tough time, obviously, for her.
PASTOR FRANK PAGE, ASHLEY SMITH'S FMR. PASTOR: Good morning, Soledad.
And she is very, very tired. She's emotionally drained, as the whole family certainly are at this time. She's doing well. She's just, she feels like she's an ordinary person caught up in extremely extraordinary circumstances. So given all the circumstances, she's doing well, but she's trying to recuperate just a little bit right now from all the attention that she's not accustomed to.
O'BRIEN: Yes, I would imagine. I'd also imagine that the impact of what happened to her, I mean, being held hostage for a long time, has sort of finally sinking in, and she's kind of getting the bigger understanding of that. I know she says she's not a hero. What do you think?
PAGE: Well, I think that term is widely used and little understood. She doesn't see herself that way. She told me yesterday that she -- after the initial shock of being taken hostage and pleading for her life, she began to realize that she was not going to be harmed, and at that point she said she felt that God had just filled her up inside and enabled her to be able to be someone that could be used by him, so she felt she was God's instrument, and she was safe at that point, and she was able to trust him and he her. And so she doesn't see herself as an extraordinary person. She is a simple, ordinary person with a strong faith.
O'BRIEN: Your description is very much the message of "The Purpose Driven Life," which is a book that she says was very important in her communication with Brian Nichols. It's also a book that you gave her not that long ago, just a couple of weeks ago. When you hear something like that, do you think, well, that's coincidence, or do you think it's sort of a greater power at work in this sort of thing?
PAGE: Well, Soledad, first of all, it was given to her by another pastor, a friend of mine. But I love that book. Rick Warren did a phenomenal job in it. And I just believe this was part of God's plan. Because can you imagine, here is a situation out of control, absolutely crazy, and here is a young lady who has gone through difficulties in her life, and she's able to work with a man who is obviously gone through much, and going through much, and God had prepared her, and part of that preparation, just a part of it, is the reading of "The Purpose Driven Life," and so she was able to read to him from that, as well as from the Bible.
And so I think it was not coincidence. I think it was a God thing. She believes that and sees that, that God was able to use the preparation that was already going on in her life to be able to help diffuse a situation and probably, possibly, hopefully save many more lives.
O'BRIEN: Pastor Frank Page joining us this morning. I know you've known her for a long time. Certainly, it's been a tough time for her, so I'll help you'll pass along that we hope she is recovering from all this well, and getting some of the well-needed and well- deserved rest that she needs.
Thank you, sir. Appreciate your time.
PAGE: I will do that. Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Coming up in our next half hour, we're going to talk to a former hostage negotiator about what he thinks Ashley Smith did right, and what she might have done wrong while Brian Nichols held her captive -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: Michael Jackson's accuser will be back on the witness stand today. Jackson's lawyer picked apart the 15-year-old boy's testimony during five hours of cross-examination on Monday.
Miguel Marquez is covering the trial.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael, how are you feeling today?
MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: In pain.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How'd you think things went today.
JACKSON: Mesereau did a great job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Michael Jackson, still in pain from a bad back, but he's feeling good about his lawyer and his case.
RAYMONE BAIN, JACKSON SPOKESWOMAN: This is a long, long trial. And he's happy that the momentum seems to be moving in his direction right now.
MARQUEZ: Jackson's teenage accuser testified after the Jackson documentary aired, the dean of his school took him aside and asked whether Jackson ever did anything inappropriate to him. The boy said no.
But are the victims of sexual assault always forthcoming?
JIM HAMMER, FMR. PROSECUTOR: The typical course for a child assault victim is to deny it ever happened, then to tell little bits of it, and then finally, the full story comes out.
MARQUEZ: The boy also testified that he never talked to Jay Leno. The defense says the late-night comedian filed a police report after the boy and his mother called him to ask for money.
MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If Leno comes into this courtroom and says, in fact he did have a conversation with the alleged victim, it's going to be pivotal testimony to this particular case.
MARQUEZ: So far, the accuser and his siblings have given vague and sometimes conflicting accounts of when and how the alleged molestations happened at Jackson's Neverland Ranch.
(on camera): The cross-examination of Michael Jackson's 15-year- old accuser will continue later today.
Miguel Marquez, CNN, Santa Maria, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CAFFERTY: The timing issue could in fact be critical, because the four counts of committing a lewd act on a child, charged in Jackson's indictment, had to have taken place between February 20th and March 12th, 2003.
(WEATHER REPORT)
CAFFERTY: Pandemonium in the deadly hotel shooting caught on tape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CALLER: This is a massacre. He was very depressed. Oh, my. He just started shooting. We were sitting, all sitting during services.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CAFFERTY: Chilling new 911 tapes revealing what happened in Wisconsin.
O'BRIEN: Also, a new anthrax alert at two separate mail centers. We've got latest on that, ahead this morning.
CAFFERTY: And two New York City cops, charged with moonlighting as hitmen for the mob. One of their lawyers explains why he thinks his client is innocent. It's coming up on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Dreams, and prayers and calls for help are on the 911 tapes recorded after the church service shooting in Wisconsin. Seven people and the gunman were killed in the space of just one minute on Saturday. Several people called from the suburban Milwaukee hotel where the shootings took place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CALLER: Oh, my. Oh, no! Oh, no! Oh, no, (INAUDIBLE) is dead. Oh, no, oh, no. Oh, no, there are at least -- how many are on the floor? Five to 10? Five to 10 at least. Oh, OK. It's Wisconsin room in the back. Is anybody on their way?
DISPATCHER: Oh, yes, we're sending people right now. I'm going to keep you on the line now.
CALLER: Yes, I'm right in the back. I'm at the back door.
Oh, my, one of my friends is laying on the floor. I think she's dead.
Oh, this is awful. This is a massacre. He was very depressed. Oh, my. He just started shooting. We were sitting, all sitting during services.
DISPATCHER: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Church members identified the gunman in their calls. 44-year-old Terry Ratzmann belonged to the congregation. Police think Ratzmann may have been targeting the pastor's family. The pastor and his son were killed, the pastor's wife was wounded -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: An anthrax alert in the Pentagon's mail is in our CNN Security Watch this morning. Sensors flagged the deadly bacteria at two separate military mail centers.
Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon now.
Barbara, what's the current situation? BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Jack.
Well, Pentagon and local health and law enforcement officials say that these two facilities do remain closed this morning while they try to determine what set off anthrax sensors in those buildings over the last few days.
Now, hundreds of employees were kept on site last night until they could be given information about anthrax exposure. Nasal swabs were taken as part of a test to see if anyone had actually been exposed to the agent. Hundreds of employees also given the opportunity to take three days of antibiotics.
So far, no word that anyone is actually experiencing the illness. But let's talk about these facilities. One of them, right here at the Pentagon. It is a remote delivery facility, right next to the building. It was built particularly so that mail packages, freight coming into the Pentagon could be screened for just this type of problem before it entered the building.
There was a test last Thursday in which the sensor was -- pardon me. The sensor had a positive reading last Thursday. They conducted additional field tests yesterday. It came back negative at that point, and so now a third round of testing is being conducted.
The other site is a complex of three buildings, three commercial buildings, a few miles from here in the Pentagon, here in northern Virginia. That is also a mail-handling facility for the Pentagon. They had a positive reading there over the last few days. The same thing is being done. They are doing more testing to try and figure out exactly what's going on -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: What do they think is going on? It's been a while since anthrax has been in the news. What's their best guess as to what might be happening here?
STARR: Well, there's two possibilities, which is, of course, that it might be an actual positive reading, that somehow anthrax got into the building through the mail. But they are also very seriously looking at the notion that this was another false positive, if you will. They've had many instances in the past where these sensors, which are extremely sensitive, get set off, they do several rounds of testing, and then determine it was a false positive. Everyone hopes that's going to be the case, but they're going to be very cautious, conduct another round of testing and make sure -- Jack.
CAFFERTY: All right, thanks, Barbara. Barbara Starr live at the Pentagon.
Stay with CNN day and night for the most reliable news on your security.
O'BRIEN: One of the world's smallest cities is also considered the safest. According to a new survey, Luxembourg City is the world's top city for personal safety and security. It's followed by Helsinki in Finland, and Bern, Geneva and Zurich, all of which are in Switzerland. The survey says the safest cities in the United States are Honolulu, Houston, Lexington, Kentucky, San Francisco and Winston- Salem in North Carolina.
CAFFERTY: Another high-profile CEO shown the door. Andy shares the reason behind this latest corporate shakeup. He's minding your business, next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAFFERTY: Pressure from investigators proved to be too much for the CEO of insurance giant AIG. He's out of here. Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business," plus a look at the markets.
Good morning.
ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Good morning to you, Jack.
You know, it's another day and another CEO ousted. We've seen this time and time again this year. This time, it's Maurice Hank Greenberg, who's the CEO of AIG, as Jack mentioned. It's the nation's 10th largest company, the largest insurance company in the United States. He locked horns with New York state attorney general Eliot Spitzer. Spitzer was investigating a transaction he considered that the company did not properly account for. And this gentleman, Hank Greenberg, built this company into a giant, giant force on Wall Street.
Interestingly, Spitzer forced out Greenberg's son, Jeffrey Greenberg, who was the head of Marsh & McLennan.
Let's also go and look at some of the other people who've lost their jobs, other CEOs this year. Yesterday, of course, Michael Eisner at Disney. Before that Carly Fiorina. Harry Stonecipher at Boeing. Who can forget that story. Greenberg, we've talked about, and the gentleman Christopher Milliken at OfficeMax. Franklin Raines at Fannie Mae in late December as well.
And what's going on here, Jack, of course, is that boards are no longer rubber stamping these guys. They're being responsibility. They're being assertive. If they see the CEO involved in wrongdoing, or even questionable behavior, they're say it's time to look for a new head of this company.
CAFFERTY: About time, don't you think? Greenberg's stock holdings, I read, $2.3 billion worth of stock in AIG. The stock is up a multiple of 100 times since the late '60s when he got the company.
SERWER: Truly a juggernaut on wall street, one of the most powerful people down there.
O'BRIEN: Seventy-nine years old, right? Wow.
SERWER: Held on to power for a long time.
O'BRIEN: Thanks, Andy.
SERWER: You're welcome.
O'BRIEN: OK, so Bill Hemmer's on vacation. So Jack's filling in for Bill, Carol's filling in for Jack. She's got the Question of the Day.
SERWER: Musical chairs.
O'BRIEN: I've explained it all. I've brought you all up to speed.
Good morning.
COSTELLO: I don't think I can do this justice, but I'm going to try.
CAFFERTY: Of course you can.
O'BRIEN: No pressure from this corner.
SERWER: We're watching, Carol.
COSTELLO: I'm going to try to be as surly as I possibly can.
You know Jack deserves that. Look at that little smile.
The topic today, Halliburton. Guess what? It may have overcharged the United States, that would be us, $100 million. That is an insane amount of money. According to a Pentagon audit, Halliburton charged over $27 million to deliver $82,000 of gas. Auditors called that illogical. Halliburton's initial contract with the U.S. government was worth $2.5 billion. That contract is now complete, but the company continues to work on other projects in Iraq, despite that Pentagon audit that says it's ripped off U.S. taxpayers for $100 million.
So here's our question for you this morning, should Halliburton give up its government contracts in Iraq? E-mail us, am@CNN.com.
O'BRIEN: And I wonder who fills in if indeed they do step back. I mean, obviously, they're there because there's a big gap of who's going to fill in.
SERWER: Yes, that's a good question.
COSTELLO: And the other thing to keep in mind, it's dangerous to do work over there. Dozens of Halliburton employees have died doing work over there. So that's why Halliburton says that it has to inflate its costs somewhat. That's another factor.
O'BRIEN: We'll see what viewers have to say. Thanks, Carol.
Well, two former New York City cops charged with being hit men for the mob. What's their defense? We're going to talk to one of their lawyers just ahead.
O'BRIEN: Also, a CNN exclusive, inside the manhunt for Brian Nichols, tough questions on how local law officials let him elude their grasp for 26 hours. That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
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