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American Morning

Inside the Manhunt; Negotiating Freedom; Mafia Cops?

Aired March 15, 2005 - 07:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. It's just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING. Bill Hemmer has the day off, so Jack and I get to spend a little extra time together this morning.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: That's fun, huh?

O'BRIEN: You lucky guy.

CAFFERTY: I am lucky, absolutely. I count my blessings.

O'BRIEN: All right, that's sarcastic.

Authorities in Atlanta are getting more heat now for how they responded to Friday's killings. This morning, the man in charge of the manhunt answers the critics.

CAFFERTY: Also, those two retired New York City cops, accused of killing people for the mob. One of the men's lawyers is on the broadcast this morning. He says there is a rat, but it's not his client.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. We look forward to that.

First, though, let's get right to the headlines. Kelly Wallace is in for us this morning.

Good morning.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Soledad. Good morning, everyone. Here are some of the stories "Now in the News."

W begin in Iraq, where an Iraqi child has been killed in a suicide car bombing in northern Baghdad. Police say the morning blast happened near several schools and hospitals. Four other people are injured. Meanwhile, a U.S. Marine was killed in action in western Iraq's Al Anbar province during security and stability operations.

News to tell you about, another amber alert. Authorities in Alabama are on the lookout this hour for a 14-year-old girl they say may be in extreme danger. They say Amber Danielle Shelton was last seen Friday at home. She's believed to have been taken against her will by a man she met on enter the Internet. Police are asking anyone with information to step forward and contact authorities.

Former President Bill Clinton is home today recovering from surgery. Exclusive CNN video you're seeing there shows the former president and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton leaving the hospital. Fluid and scar tissue were removed from his left lung last week. In a statement, Mr. Clinton said -- quote -- "I'm glad to be home and look forward to getting back to work within the next month or so."

And gas prices, we're sorry to tell you, are nearing a record high. The average cost at the pump is now almost $2.06, just a penny short of the all-time record. The rising cost of oil is blamed on the hike. Much more on that with Andy Serwer coming up. It's going to be expensive to travel this summer on the road.

O'BRIEN: Yes, it will.

CAFFERTY: Just stay home with the wife and children.

WALLACE: I guess. Wouldn't that be nice.

CAFFERTY: Maybe borrow some money. Thanks, Kelly.

This morning, we're learning new details regarding what went wrong in the Atlanta courthouse shooting. Quite a lot, actually, according to local news reports. Judge Barnes, one of the victims, triggered a silent alarm, but no deputies responded for over 10 minutes.

CNN's Rick Sanchez has more on what went wrong that day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As chaos reigned outside Fulton County courthouse Friday morning, many stopped to stare, others were in shock, even tears.

Major Ed Platt's job was to react.

MAJ. ED "SKIP" PLATT, FULTON COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: Once we determined that he had left the building, then the manhunt was on.

SANCHEZ: Platt was in charge of the joint operations manhunt that eventually caught up with Brian Nichols. In an exclusive interview with CNN, he outlines how his operation worked, and also how it may have stumbled along the way.

Perhaps nothing has loomed larger than the failure to find the green Honda Accord, the car the city and nation were on a lookout for. In truth, the car had moved just a matter of yards. But in 14 hours police had failed to search the entire garage.

PLATT: Logically, we would make that assumption that he was going to stick to that mode of transportation.

SANCHEZ: There were other missteps, but perhaps none as glaring as the clue literally delivered to police by Nichols himself, when he suggested to carjack victim and newspaper man Don O'Briant where he would be going next.

(on camera): He comes up to Mr. O'Briant. CHARLES STONE, FORMER GA. BUREAU OF INV. AGENT: Right.

SANCHEZ: And he says something to him about Lennox Mall, asking for directions.

STONE: Exactly. That should have triggered a response, a police response in that most carjackers don't ask directions.

SANCHEZ: Part of the problem is that one agency was investigating the manhunt, while yet another agency, the Atlanta Police Department, was investigating each particular crime scene. As a result, crucial information, like the fact the suspect had asked for directions to Lennox Mall, never got to Major Platt.

PLATT: I'm aware of that now based on watching some interviews with them. We were not aware of that at the time.

SANCHEZ (voice over): Hours later, Nichols surfaced at the very place he had suggested he would: Lennox Mall. And only blocks away, the story turned bloodier when Customs Agent David Wilhelm was allegedly killed by Nichols.

Platt confirms there will be a review of the entire manhunt, but he insists, in the end, he and his men got the job done.

PLATT: There's a lot of -- what do you call it? Monday-morning quarterbacking going on. But I feel like -- I can only speak for myself. I know I did everything that I could do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAFFERTY: That was CNN's Rick Sanchez reporting.

Here's some more Monday-morning quarterbacking. There are also reports that police had several other chances to catch Nichols. According to statements from parking garage attendants, published in today's "Atlanta Journal-Constitution", the attendants say they twice alerted police about exits from the garage that Nichols had entered. They say police ignored the warnings and, instead, went rushing into the parking garage looking for Nichols, who then later apparently walked down the stairs and out one of the doors that the parking garage attendants had told the police he might be using to leave the building. Incredible -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Well, police may have led the manhunt for Nichols, but it was really Ashley Smith who caught him. Nichols held Smith hostage for more than seven hours inside of her suburban Atlanta apartment. She is being praised as well for the way she handled him. So, what exactly did she do right? Were there any possible missteps?

Walter Zeins is a former chief hostage negotiator for the New York City Police Department.

Nice to see you. Thanks for talking with us.

I think you have to say, if it ends well, then she did everything right. But let's talk about specifics. It starts Sunday, 2:30 in the morning. Here is what Ashley Smith says happens. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY SMITH, FORMER HOSTAGE: I started walking to my door, and I felt really, scared. So I put my key in the door, and I unlocked it. And I turned around, and he was right there. And I started to scream, and he put a gun to my side, and he said "Don't scream. If you don't scream, I won't hurt you." So I said, 'All right, OK. I won't scream.'

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: He makes it clear what he wants, "Don't scream." She gives in to that. Submit or fight, what's the right thing to do?

WALTER ZEINS, FMR. NYPD DETECTIVE SERGEANT: Well, in a situation like this, probably the most dangerous part of any hostage negotiation is the first 10 to 20 minutes. We call that panic reaction. Panic reaction deals with the police responding, the hostage-taker looking for his best route he wants to escape. And he also wants to buy time. And also the hostages are in turmoil. She was very cool, calm and collected.

Now remember, calmness is contagious at that stage. There is no such thing as anyone being calm. She was calm.

O'BRIEN: It's interesting, though, when you hear the story about the reporter who had his car carjacked eventually. Well, he was asked to give up the keys. He did. But when he was told to get in the trunk, he said no way, and ran. Was that the right response?

ZEINS: Well, you know, in a situation like that, he looked, and he saw he had an opportunity to escape. And he took his best chance. You know, it was a 50/50 chance at that point. And also, Mr. Nichols wanted to get away, so he had to think time is of the essence. He had to make a getaway one way or the other.

O'BRIEN: We know now that Ashley Smith spoke a lot about her 5- year-old daughter with Brian Nichols. And she went out of her way to bond with him, she told us later. Let's listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: My husband died four years ago. And I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: She bonded with him about this. She bonded about family. She bonded about God as well. Is that an important critical thing to do whether you're the hostage or you're the hostage negotiator?

ZEINS: It's very important to develop a rapport with the hostage-taker. Most importantly, you have to buy time. Once you -- the more time you spend, the better your relationship is with the hostage-taker. You know, she's a street-wise lady. She's got a Ph.D. from the street. She knows her past, and she has a goal. Her goal is her daughter. Her life is her daughter. And whatever it takes, she's going to do everything to see that child.

O'BRIEN: It was interesting to me that she talked to him about the future, when there are so many people who would see what he has just allegedly done and would say it's over. You know, you're done. You're done.

Let's first listen to what she said to him, which I found fascinating.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: He needed hope for his life. He told me that he was already dead. He said, "Look at me. Look at my eyes. I am already dead." And I said, 'You are not dead. You are standing right in front of me. If you want to die you can. It's your choice.'

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: That moment, it seemed to me, that things had changed, things had turned. And now she was talking him into wanting to live, as opposed to negotiating for her own life, which is how it all started.

ZEINS: Right. She explained to him that the whole situation was a permanent solution to a temporary problem. He had problems. He knew he had to face the courts, and he had to face everything that was going to, you know, be presented to him. But most importantly, she calmed him down. You know, that type of hostage-taker, someone that commits a crime, they do have that quality to reason. And she was able to reason with him. She developed that frequency on the same frequency, and that was very important.

O'BRIEN: Was it as shocking to you as it was, I think, to many other people when she talked about how, after she drives away with him, which is an opportunity to get away, she says, 'I'm not going to get away, because he might disappear.' She brings him back, and not only brings him back, but go back to her apartment, where she's now hostage again, makes him breakfast.

Let's listen to what she had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: So we went back to my house and got in the house. And he was hungry, so I cooked him breakfast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: That, to me, is against conventional wisdom. One, don't drive off when you have a chance. And, two, make him breakfast? Is that over the line to you? ZEINS: Well, let's take each one. First of all, driving off. She realized, again, as I mentioned before, she had a goal. She wanted to see her child. That's the most important thing.

She also knew that he killed people. And if she used her cell phone and called 911 and the police didn't respond or the police did respond and surrounded the vehicles, she might be in that traumatic situation of a shootout. She was in a situation before. They both are in a crisis. She realized the fact that her husband died in her arms, you know. It was a very traumatic experience.

Now, we go back to making him food, the pancakes. Everything in hostage negotiation is a negotiation. She made the pancakes, because she had another want, and that was to get out of there, by that acceptance. And the most important thing was trust, and she got that trust.

O'BRIEN: And she did it well. Really, a textbook negotiation for a woman who is not a hostage negotiator.

ZEINS: Textbook. And, you know, an interesting part, when she spoke to him and he took a shower. We have an area in hostage negotiation, and, again, this was a textbook. It's called surrender or suicide. Usually, a person will surrender and flip-flops back and forth, or they consider suicide.

He took a shower. He ate. He got dressed. Why? Because if he was going to surrender, he wanted to leave that place looking good, prim and proper, because he knew his family might be seeing him. The media might be out there.

And she also expressed with the suicide aspect, absolution. You know, reading the Bible. We usually never let a priest or a clergyman come into the hostage negotiations, because usually that's a sign of absolution.

O'BRIEN: But he got it. It's nice to see you. Thank you very much, Mr. Zeins...

ZEINS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: ... for that really fascinating insight. Appreciate it -- Jack.

CAFFERTY: It's time now to check back on the weather.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Well, a bankrupt airline might get a new lease on life. Andy is "Minding Your Business" just ahead this morning.

CAFFERTY: Two former New York City cops charged with being hit men for the mob. What's the evidence against them? One of their lawyers will join us next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CAFFERTY: After years of fighting organized crime with New York's finest, investigators now say that two decorated officers were members of the mob all along. If convicted on murder and corruption charges, Louis Eppolito and Stephen Caracappa could be looking at life in prison.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROSLYNN MAUSKOPF, U.S. ATTORNEY: For years, Eppolito and Caracappa were cops. Mafia cops.

CAFFERTY (voice over): The two former New York City police detectives are accused of moonlighting as mob hit men. Authorities say the one-time partners spent years on the payroll of Luchese family under-boss Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso.

MAUSKOPF: While both men were still working for the NYPD, Casso put both on retainer, paying them $4,000 a month.

CAFFERTY: Eppolito and Caracappa were allegedly involved in eight murders and three attempted murders, including a failed plot to kill infamous mob turncoat Sammy "The Bull" Gravano.

Eppolito is also an actor, often playing the role of a mobster onscreen, including this role in the film "Goodfellas."

Caracappa had worked in the NYPD's organized crime unit, where investigators say he leaked secret evidence to mob accomplices.

The two were arrested last week in Las Vegas, where they have been neighbors for more than a decade. Attorneys for both men say the charges are completely unfounded. Prosecutors, though, say the case reveals a stunning betrayal of public trust.

PASQUALE D'AMURO, FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: This was not a case of two good cops who went bad. It seems clear that Eppolito and Caracappa were two bad guys, who somehow became law enforcement officers.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAFFERTY: The two are now in federal custody in Las Vegas, pending their expected return to New York later this month to face charges.

Ed Hayes is the attorney for former NYPD Detective Stephen Caracappa.

Good morning. Nice to have you with us.

ED HAYES, ATTY. FOR STEPHEN CARACAPPA: Thank you. Thank you for asking me to come.

CAFFERTY: Why do you take this case?

HAYES: First of all, I think everybody is entitled to a fair trial. I represented him 10 years ago. We went down, and we confronted the government on these charges from a guy named "Gaspipe" Casso, who even the mafia thought was a lunatic. It was a joke 10 years ago. They threw the case out. It never went anywhere.

Now, they come back. Every newspaper in New York runs a headline story, a front-page story, of how this guy is guilty without giving him the benefit of putting forth the other side, the defense side you could say. But I think he's entitled to a defense.

CAFFERTY: The papers say that there's a guy named Bergman Kaplan (ph), who apparently, during the time these alleged killings were taking place, served as the go-between between your client, the other detective and Casso.

HAYES: OK. Berg Kaplan (ph) was a major narcotics dealer and one of Casso's closest friends. Now, Casso was a psychotic, right? I mean, he couldn't even -- he couldn't -- right? And seriously a psychotic, all right? And Kaplan (ph) is no better. Kaplan (ph) -- every one of these charges were known 10 years ago. They couldn't prove them 19 years ago. Kaplan (ph) is an old man. He doesn't want to die in jail. So all of a sudden, he comes out and he says these are that guys that did it.

You wouldn't ground your daughter if Bert Kaplan (ph) accused her of something. That's how little credibility he has.

CAFFERTY: So why are the prosecutors bringing these charges? I mean, this is serious stuff. They're ruining the careers of two decorated detectives on the NYPD.

HAYES: And not only that, they're leaking every bit of information in this case to the newspapers to make sure they don't get a fair trial.

There are two things. One is these mafia guys have learned over time how to lie and get out of their problems. And that is they tell the government something that gives the government somebody more important.

Remember, the government was wrong about weapons of mass destruction. They were wrong about that Chinese scientist.

CAFFERTY: I understand that. But you don't indict decorated police officers for murder based only on the word of a -- quote -- "lunatic" -- unquote. They got something.

HAYES: Yes. What they have is they have the lunatic. They have the lunatic's best friend.

CAFFERTY: So who is the lunatic?

HAYES: No, I think Casso is not an alleged lunatic. Casso is a genuine lunatic. Kaplan (ph) is an alleged lunatic.

CAFFERTY: All right.

HAYES: All right? We haven't met Kaplan (ph). We don't know him. He's an alleged lunatic.

CAFFERTY: All right.

HAYES: OK? They also have information that shows that Caracappa was connected with the investigations of some of the people that were killed, including, in particular, this poor young man, Guido (ph), who was killed, and it turns out he had no connection to organized crime.

Now that's not a mistake that Caracappa could have made, because the resources that Caracappa had -- and he had a very delicate job where he was very carefully supervised. He would have known if Guido (ph) was not an organized crime figure.

So I think that at least, at least, Caracappa, who has risked his life hundreds of times for his country, is entitled to a fair trial, and for the public to hold back its judgment until he's has some chance to put forward his side of it, which by the way CNN is the first place, major media outlet that's tried to come and say, well, what's Caracappa's point of view. So thank you.

CAFFERTY: The most trusted name in news.

HAYES: The most trusted name, that's right.

CAFFERTY: Ed, good to have you with us.

HAYES: And an Irish guy at 7:30 in the morning that can talk and actually express himself.

CAFFERTY: All right, Ed Hayes is the attorney for Stephen Caracappa. The other defendant in this case, Eppolito, has hired Bruce Cutler (ph) as his lawyer. Bruce Cutler (ph) was John Gotti's lawyer.

Soledad -- back to you.

O'BRIEN: All right, thanks.

Well, a bankrupt airline once given over for dead gets a shot at a comeback. Andy is "Minding Your Business" up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Investors are watching oil prices today. Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business."

Good morning.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Good morning, Soledad.

Indeed, it's all about oil. Stock prices danced around all over the place until late in the day, when they did end up at the close after the Saudis said they would be raising their quota of the oil that they're producing.

Let's take a look and see where we ended up the day. You can see here, a nice little rally at the end.

Saudi Oil Minister Ali al-Nuaimi said that he was going to be raising or looking to raise Saudi oil production or OPEC production by half-a-million barrels of oil a day. OPEC is meeting in Iran, and they're going to be discussing production there. The decision is expected tomorrow.

The price of oil is not helping investors out this morning, though. We're at $55.21, right near the record of $55.67 set last October. Of course, that means higher gas prices. And U.S. production is not going down, and U.S. consumption, especially, is not going down.

We want to switch over and talk about airlines. Obviously, they've been battered around by higher oil prices. US Air is apparently getting a bailout by a company called Republic Air, which is investing $100 million in the troubled carrier. However, US Air still needs to get another $100 million to receive the first $100 million.

And I'll tell you something, at some point, some of these airlines have to go out of business, because if they keep propping all these carriers up, they're going to keep these fare wars going on. And they're going to keep running each other into the ground. It's truly amazing that these airlines are able to find investors willing to put hundreds of millions of dollars into these companies. But so far, there is no stop to this.

O'BRIEN: It's a real catch-22.

SERWER: It is.

O'BRIEN: All right, Andy, thanks.

SERWER: You're welcome.

O'BRIEN: Well, Congress's investigation of baseball and steroids. Players have been reluctant to testify. Former commissioner Fay Vincent tells us how they could learn a lesson from Pete Rose. We'll explain ahead. Stay with us.

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Aired March 15, 2005 - 07:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Welcome back, everybody. It's just about half past the hour on this AMERICAN MORNING. Bill Hemmer has the day off, so Jack and I get to spend a little extra time together this morning.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: That's fun, huh?

O'BRIEN: You lucky guy.

CAFFERTY: I am lucky, absolutely. I count my blessings.

O'BRIEN: All right, that's sarcastic.

Authorities in Atlanta are getting more heat now for how they responded to Friday's killings. This morning, the man in charge of the manhunt answers the critics.

CAFFERTY: Also, those two retired New York City cops, accused of killing people for the mob. One of the men's lawyers is on the broadcast this morning. He says there is a rat, but it's not his client.

O'BRIEN: Interesting. We look forward to that.

First, though, let's get right to the headlines. Kelly Wallace is in for us this morning.

Good morning.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Soledad. Good morning, everyone. Here are some of the stories "Now in the News."

W begin in Iraq, where an Iraqi child has been killed in a suicide car bombing in northern Baghdad. Police say the morning blast happened near several schools and hospitals. Four other people are injured. Meanwhile, a U.S. Marine was killed in action in western Iraq's Al Anbar province during security and stability operations.

News to tell you about, another amber alert. Authorities in Alabama are on the lookout this hour for a 14-year-old girl they say may be in extreme danger. They say Amber Danielle Shelton was last seen Friday at home. She's believed to have been taken against her will by a man she met on enter the Internet. Police are asking anyone with information to step forward and contact authorities.

Former President Bill Clinton is home today recovering from surgery. Exclusive CNN video you're seeing there shows the former president and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton leaving the hospital. Fluid and scar tissue were removed from his left lung last week. In a statement, Mr. Clinton said -- quote -- "I'm glad to be home and look forward to getting back to work within the next month or so."

And gas prices, we're sorry to tell you, are nearing a record high. The average cost at the pump is now almost $2.06, just a penny short of the all-time record. The rising cost of oil is blamed on the hike. Much more on that with Andy Serwer coming up. It's going to be expensive to travel this summer on the road.

O'BRIEN: Yes, it will.

CAFFERTY: Just stay home with the wife and children.

WALLACE: I guess. Wouldn't that be nice.

CAFFERTY: Maybe borrow some money. Thanks, Kelly.

This morning, we're learning new details regarding what went wrong in the Atlanta courthouse shooting. Quite a lot, actually, according to local news reports. Judge Barnes, one of the victims, triggered a silent alarm, but no deputies responded for over 10 minutes.

CNN's Rick Sanchez has more on what went wrong that day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): As chaos reigned outside Fulton County courthouse Friday morning, many stopped to stare, others were in shock, even tears.

Major Ed Platt's job was to react.

MAJ. ED "SKIP" PLATT, FULTON COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: Once we determined that he had left the building, then the manhunt was on.

SANCHEZ: Platt was in charge of the joint operations manhunt that eventually caught up with Brian Nichols. In an exclusive interview with CNN, he outlines how his operation worked, and also how it may have stumbled along the way.

Perhaps nothing has loomed larger than the failure to find the green Honda Accord, the car the city and nation were on a lookout for. In truth, the car had moved just a matter of yards. But in 14 hours police had failed to search the entire garage.

PLATT: Logically, we would make that assumption that he was going to stick to that mode of transportation.

SANCHEZ: There were other missteps, but perhaps none as glaring as the clue literally delivered to police by Nichols himself, when he suggested to carjack victim and newspaper man Don O'Briant where he would be going next.

(on camera): He comes up to Mr. O'Briant. CHARLES STONE, FORMER GA. BUREAU OF INV. AGENT: Right.

SANCHEZ: And he says something to him about Lennox Mall, asking for directions.

STONE: Exactly. That should have triggered a response, a police response in that most carjackers don't ask directions.

SANCHEZ: Part of the problem is that one agency was investigating the manhunt, while yet another agency, the Atlanta Police Department, was investigating each particular crime scene. As a result, crucial information, like the fact the suspect had asked for directions to Lennox Mall, never got to Major Platt.

PLATT: I'm aware of that now based on watching some interviews with them. We were not aware of that at the time.

SANCHEZ (voice over): Hours later, Nichols surfaced at the very place he had suggested he would: Lennox Mall. And only blocks away, the story turned bloodier when Customs Agent David Wilhelm was allegedly killed by Nichols.

Platt confirms there will be a review of the entire manhunt, but he insists, in the end, he and his men got the job done.

PLATT: There's a lot of -- what do you call it? Monday-morning quarterbacking going on. But I feel like -- I can only speak for myself. I know I did everything that I could do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAFFERTY: That was CNN's Rick Sanchez reporting.

Here's some more Monday-morning quarterbacking. There are also reports that police had several other chances to catch Nichols. According to statements from parking garage attendants, published in today's "Atlanta Journal-Constitution", the attendants say they twice alerted police about exits from the garage that Nichols had entered. They say police ignored the warnings and, instead, went rushing into the parking garage looking for Nichols, who then later apparently walked down the stairs and out one of the doors that the parking garage attendants had told the police he might be using to leave the building. Incredible -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Well, police may have led the manhunt for Nichols, but it was really Ashley Smith who caught him. Nichols held Smith hostage for more than seven hours inside of her suburban Atlanta apartment. She is being praised as well for the way she handled him. So, what exactly did she do right? Were there any possible missteps?

Walter Zeins is a former chief hostage negotiator for the New York City Police Department.

Nice to see you. Thanks for talking with us.

I think you have to say, if it ends well, then she did everything right. But let's talk about specifics. It starts Sunday, 2:30 in the morning. Here is what Ashley Smith says happens. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY SMITH, FORMER HOSTAGE: I started walking to my door, and I felt really, scared. So I put my key in the door, and I unlocked it. And I turned around, and he was right there. And I started to scream, and he put a gun to my side, and he said "Don't scream. If you don't scream, I won't hurt you." So I said, 'All right, OK. I won't scream.'

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: He makes it clear what he wants, "Don't scream." She gives in to that. Submit or fight, what's the right thing to do?

WALTER ZEINS, FMR. NYPD DETECTIVE SERGEANT: Well, in a situation like this, probably the most dangerous part of any hostage negotiation is the first 10 to 20 minutes. We call that panic reaction. Panic reaction deals with the police responding, the hostage-taker looking for his best route he wants to escape. And he also wants to buy time. And also the hostages are in turmoil. She was very cool, calm and collected.

Now remember, calmness is contagious at that stage. There is no such thing as anyone being calm. She was calm.

O'BRIEN: It's interesting, though, when you hear the story about the reporter who had his car carjacked eventually. Well, he was asked to give up the keys. He did. But when he was told to get in the trunk, he said no way, and ran. Was that the right response?

ZEINS: Well, you know, in a situation like that, he looked, and he saw he had an opportunity to escape. And he took his best chance. You know, it was a 50/50 chance at that point. And also, Mr. Nichols wanted to get away, so he had to think time is of the essence. He had to make a getaway one way or the other.

O'BRIEN: We know now that Ashley Smith spoke a lot about her 5- year-old daughter with Brian Nichols. And she went out of her way to bond with him, she told us later. Let's listen to what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: My husband died four years ago. And I told him that if he hurt me, my little girl wouldn't have a mommy or a daddy. And she was expecting to see me the next morning.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: She bonded with him about this. She bonded about family. She bonded about God as well. Is that an important critical thing to do whether you're the hostage or you're the hostage negotiator?

ZEINS: It's very important to develop a rapport with the hostage-taker. Most importantly, you have to buy time. Once you -- the more time you spend, the better your relationship is with the hostage-taker. You know, she's a street-wise lady. She's got a Ph.D. from the street. She knows her past, and she has a goal. Her goal is her daughter. Her life is her daughter. And whatever it takes, she's going to do everything to see that child.

O'BRIEN: It was interesting to me that she talked to him about the future, when there are so many people who would see what he has just allegedly done and would say it's over. You know, you're done. You're done.

Let's first listen to what she said to him, which I found fascinating.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: He needed hope for his life. He told me that he was already dead. He said, "Look at me. Look at my eyes. I am already dead." And I said, 'You are not dead. You are standing right in front of me. If you want to die you can. It's your choice.'

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: That moment, it seemed to me, that things had changed, things had turned. And now she was talking him into wanting to live, as opposed to negotiating for her own life, which is how it all started.

ZEINS: Right. She explained to him that the whole situation was a permanent solution to a temporary problem. He had problems. He knew he had to face the courts, and he had to face everything that was going to, you know, be presented to him. But most importantly, she calmed him down. You know, that type of hostage-taker, someone that commits a crime, they do have that quality to reason. And she was able to reason with him. She developed that frequency on the same frequency, and that was very important.

O'BRIEN: Was it as shocking to you as it was, I think, to many other people when she talked about how, after she drives away with him, which is an opportunity to get away, she says, 'I'm not going to get away, because he might disappear.' She brings him back, and not only brings him back, but go back to her apartment, where she's now hostage again, makes him breakfast.

Let's listen to what she had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SMITH: So we went back to my house and got in the house. And he was hungry, so I cooked him breakfast.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: That, to me, is against conventional wisdom. One, don't drive off when you have a chance. And, two, make him breakfast? Is that over the line to you? ZEINS: Well, let's take each one. First of all, driving off. She realized, again, as I mentioned before, she had a goal. She wanted to see her child. That's the most important thing.

She also knew that he killed people. And if she used her cell phone and called 911 and the police didn't respond or the police did respond and surrounded the vehicles, she might be in that traumatic situation of a shootout. She was in a situation before. They both are in a crisis. She realized the fact that her husband died in her arms, you know. It was a very traumatic experience.

Now, we go back to making him food, the pancakes. Everything in hostage negotiation is a negotiation. She made the pancakes, because she had another want, and that was to get out of there, by that acceptance. And the most important thing was trust, and she got that trust.

O'BRIEN: And she did it well. Really, a textbook negotiation for a woman who is not a hostage negotiator.

ZEINS: Textbook. And, you know, an interesting part, when she spoke to him and he took a shower. We have an area in hostage negotiation, and, again, this was a textbook. It's called surrender or suicide. Usually, a person will surrender and flip-flops back and forth, or they consider suicide.

He took a shower. He ate. He got dressed. Why? Because if he was going to surrender, he wanted to leave that place looking good, prim and proper, because he knew his family might be seeing him. The media might be out there.

And she also expressed with the suicide aspect, absolution. You know, reading the Bible. We usually never let a priest or a clergyman come into the hostage negotiations, because usually that's a sign of absolution.

O'BRIEN: But he got it. It's nice to see you. Thank you very much, Mr. Zeins...

ZEINS: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: ... for that really fascinating insight. Appreciate it -- Jack.

CAFFERTY: It's time now to check back on the weather.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Well, a bankrupt airline might get a new lease on life. Andy is "Minding Your Business" just ahead this morning.

CAFFERTY: Two former New York City cops charged with being hit men for the mob. What's the evidence against them? One of their lawyers will join us next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) CAFFERTY: After years of fighting organized crime with New York's finest, investigators now say that two decorated officers were members of the mob all along. If convicted on murder and corruption charges, Louis Eppolito and Stephen Caracappa could be looking at life in prison.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROSLYNN MAUSKOPF, U.S. ATTORNEY: For years, Eppolito and Caracappa were cops. Mafia cops.

CAFFERTY (voice over): The two former New York City police detectives are accused of moonlighting as mob hit men. Authorities say the one-time partners spent years on the payroll of Luchese family under-boss Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso.

MAUSKOPF: While both men were still working for the NYPD, Casso put both on retainer, paying them $4,000 a month.

CAFFERTY: Eppolito and Caracappa were allegedly involved in eight murders and three attempted murders, including a failed plot to kill infamous mob turncoat Sammy "The Bull" Gravano.

Eppolito is also an actor, often playing the role of a mobster onscreen, including this role in the film "Goodfellas."

Caracappa had worked in the NYPD's organized crime unit, where investigators say he leaked secret evidence to mob accomplices.

The two were arrested last week in Las Vegas, where they have been neighbors for more than a decade. Attorneys for both men say the charges are completely unfounded. Prosecutors, though, say the case reveals a stunning betrayal of public trust.

PASQUALE D'AMURO, FBI ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: This was not a case of two good cops who went bad. It seems clear that Eppolito and Caracappa were two bad guys, who somehow became law enforcement officers.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAFFERTY: The two are now in federal custody in Las Vegas, pending their expected return to New York later this month to face charges.

Ed Hayes is the attorney for former NYPD Detective Stephen Caracappa.

Good morning. Nice to have you with us.

ED HAYES, ATTY. FOR STEPHEN CARACAPPA: Thank you. Thank you for asking me to come.

CAFFERTY: Why do you take this case?

HAYES: First of all, I think everybody is entitled to a fair trial. I represented him 10 years ago. We went down, and we confronted the government on these charges from a guy named "Gaspipe" Casso, who even the mafia thought was a lunatic. It was a joke 10 years ago. They threw the case out. It never went anywhere.

Now, they come back. Every newspaper in New York runs a headline story, a front-page story, of how this guy is guilty without giving him the benefit of putting forth the other side, the defense side you could say. But I think he's entitled to a defense.

CAFFERTY: The papers say that there's a guy named Bergman Kaplan (ph), who apparently, during the time these alleged killings were taking place, served as the go-between between your client, the other detective and Casso.

HAYES: OK. Berg Kaplan (ph) was a major narcotics dealer and one of Casso's closest friends. Now, Casso was a psychotic, right? I mean, he couldn't even -- he couldn't -- right? And seriously a psychotic, all right? And Kaplan (ph) is no better. Kaplan (ph) -- every one of these charges were known 10 years ago. They couldn't prove them 19 years ago. Kaplan (ph) is an old man. He doesn't want to die in jail. So all of a sudden, he comes out and he says these are that guys that did it.

You wouldn't ground your daughter if Bert Kaplan (ph) accused her of something. That's how little credibility he has.

CAFFERTY: So why are the prosecutors bringing these charges? I mean, this is serious stuff. They're ruining the careers of two decorated detectives on the NYPD.

HAYES: And not only that, they're leaking every bit of information in this case to the newspapers to make sure they don't get a fair trial.

There are two things. One is these mafia guys have learned over time how to lie and get out of their problems. And that is they tell the government something that gives the government somebody more important.

Remember, the government was wrong about weapons of mass destruction. They were wrong about that Chinese scientist.

CAFFERTY: I understand that. But you don't indict decorated police officers for murder based only on the word of a -- quote -- "lunatic" -- unquote. They got something.

HAYES: Yes. What they have is they have the lunatic. They have the lunatic's best friend.

CAFFERTY: So who is the lunatic?

HAYES: No, I think Casso is not an alleged lunatic. Casso is a genuine lunatic. Kaplan (ph) is an alleged lunatic.

CAFFERTY: All right.

HAYES: All right? We haven't met Kaplan (ph). We don't know him. He's an alleged lunatic.

CAFFERTY: All right.

HAYES: OK? They also have information that shows that Caracappa was connected with the investigations of some of the people that were killed, including, in particular, this poor young man, Guido (ph), who was killed, and it turns out he had no connection to organized crime.

Now that's not a mistake that Caracappa could have made, because the resources that Caracappa had -- and he had a very delicate job where he was very carefully supervised. He would have known if Guido (ph) was not an organized crime figure.

So I think that at least, at least, Caracappa, who has risked his life hundreds of times for his country, is entitled to a fair trial, and for the public to hold back its judgment until he's has some chance to put forward his side of it, which by the way CNN is the first place, major media outlet that's tried to come and say, well, what's Caracappa's point of view. So thank you.

CAFFERTY: The most trusted name in news.

HAYES: The most trusted name, that's right.

CAFFERTY: Ed, good to have you with us.

HAYES: And an Irish guy at 7:30 in the morning that can talk and actually express himself.

CAFFERTY: All right, Ed Hayes is the attorney for Stephen Caracappa. The other defendant in this case, Eppolito, has hired Bruce Cutler (ph) as his lawyer. Bruce Cutler (ph) was John Gotti's lawyer.

Soledad -- back to you.

O'BRIEN: All right, thanks.

Well, a bankrupt airline once given over for dead gets a shot at a comeback. Andy is "Minding Your Business" up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Investors are watching oil prices today. Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business."

Good morning.

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: Good morning, Soledad.

Indeed, it's all about oil. Stock prices danced around all over the place until late in the day, when they did end up at the close after the Saudis said they would be raising their quota of the oil that they're producing.

Let's take a look and see where we ended up the day. You can see here, a nice little rally at the end.

Saudi Oil Minister Ali al-Nuaimi said that he was going to be raising or looking to raise Saudi oil production or OPEC production by half-a-million barrels of oil a day. OPEC is meeting in Iran, and they're going to be discussing production there. The decision is expected tomorrow.

The price of oil is not helping investors out this morning, though. We're at $55.21, right near the record of $55.67 set last October. Of course, that means higher gas prices. And U.S. production is not going down, and U.S. consumption, especially, is not going down.

We want to switch over and talk about airlines. Obviously, they've been battered around by higher oil prices. US Air is apparently getting a bailout by a company called Republic Air, which is investing $100 million in the troubled carrier. However, US Air still needs to get another $100 million to receive the first $100 million.

And I'll tell you something, at some point, some of these airlines have to go out of business, because if they keep propping all these carriers up, they're going to keep these fare wars going on. And they're going to keep running each other into the ground. It's truly amazing that these airlines are able to find investors willing to put hundreds of millions of dollars into these companies. But so far, there is no stop to this.

O'BRIEN: It's a real catch-22.

SERWER: It is.

O'BRIEN: All right, Andy, thanks.

SERWER: You're welcome.

O'BRIEN: Well, Congress's investigation of baseball and steroids. Players have been reluctant to testify. Former commissioner Fay Vincent tells us how they could learn a lesson from Pete Rose. We'll explain ahead. Stay with us.

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