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Nancy Grace
Legal Analysis of Michael Jackson Case; In "Verdict Watch" Sarah Johnson`s Trial is Discussed
Aired March 15, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, where is Jessie, the nine-year-old Florida girl who disappeared from her own bedroom in February. Tonight, a break in the case. We take you there live.
And Michael Jackson`s alleged child molestation victim under attack. The boy described under oath being teased by classmates about sex with Michael Jackson.
And we are on a "Verdict Watch" in the Sarah Johnson trial. The 16- year-old girl from Idaho on trial for the shooting deaths of her own parents. The jury, now sequestered, is in deliberations.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
The Michael Jackson prosecution now entering a new phase in its case against the music icon. The boy accuser off the stand following a brutal cross and then re-direct exam. Now, hard evidence coming in to court to help corroborate the boy`s testimony, testimony about child molestation at Michael Jackson`s hands.
And Sarah Johnson facing two counts of murder one. The victims, her mom and dad. An Idaho jury now deciding whether she`s off to college or to the ladies` penitentiary.
But first, where is Jessie Lunsford, the nine-year-old missing for weeks now?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUTH LUNSFORD, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: So I went in there and I put her to bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): On March 4th, Jessie Lunsford`s grandmother, Ruth, was given a polygraph test by the FBI. After reviewing those results, police now say Ruth gave at least two responses that raised red flags. Police will not elaborate on those responses but tell us they have conducted further interviews with Jessie`s grandma.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to San Francisco and victim`s advocate, Marc Klaas. Also with us tonight, in Denver, defense attorney Lisa Wayne; in New York, former prosecutor Nichole Williams; in Dallas, behavioral therapist Catherine Burton.
Welcome, everyone.
To you, Marc Klaas. Marc, what`s your take on the person of interest in the Jessica Lunsford case?
MARC KLAAS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, I think that reinforces everything that we have thought all along, that this is probably very close to the family in one way or the other. I think what we`re probably going to find out, since they know who this individual is, they are actively looking for this individual.
They suspect that he`s out of state or that this individual is out of state, that it`s probably somebody from a close circle, either the parent of a friend of Jessie`s, either somebody from the school, somebody from the church and/or somebody from the neighborhood. I think they`re much closer today than they were in the past and that this case will probably break wide open within the next couple of -- well, hopefully by week end.
GRACE: Lisa Wayne, why would someone acquainted with this girl, unless they had a preplanned vacation or somebody`s in the hospital, Lisa, defense attorney, why would somebody just leave the jurisdiction, leave the state, and disappear? That`s not ringing a red bell to you?
LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I think I agree with you, Nancy. I think that does ring a red bell. And I think what`s interesting to me is that the FBI felt it necessary to take the steps to polygraph the grandmother. I mean, that`s not always the case in these situations.
And something that she said either alerted them, or they`re throwing out a red herring to the public somehow and somehow trying to bring in someone under some other kind of guise. I mean, it`s very interesting, but, again, it`s not the usual step to give someone a polygraph if they believe what she`s telling them.
GRACE: Well, Lisa, I know where you`re coming from. And it`s hard to rope somebody into a polygraph.
But Marc Klaas, when your little girl, Polly, went missing, you begged, "Please, polygraph me. Search my house, search my car, do anything. Just move on with the investigation." You took a polygraph and passed with flying colors.
KLAAS: Well, you know, I did, and other members of my family did, as well. And they really have no choice but to try to eliminate the people that were closest to her so they can spread it out.
I don`t know how much one can read into this polygraph of the grandmother. She is elderly. And this probably is the most traumatic episode of her life. So, I mean, her emotions have to be jumping all over the place.
GRACE: Well, you know, anybody strapped up to a polygraph machine is going to have emotions, all right?
KLAAS: Of course.
GRACE: But, you know, I don`t know how much emotion had to do with failing some questions on a polygraph. But take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF JEFF DAWSY, CITRUS COUNTY, FLA.: We have followed up over 3,000 leads. This particular lead led us to believe there was some true credence and that we needed to go out and start looking for this individual. I am watching what I say. He is in a region -- we believe he is in a specific region. And that`s the reason why we have not released his name yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. If you don`t know already, there is a person of interest. They are calling it in the Jessica Lunsford disappearance, the nine-year- old little girl out of Florida, taken out of her bedroom at her grandparent`s house.
To Nichole Williams, you know, they called Scott Peterson a person of interest for a really long time until they finally arrested him.
NICHOLE WILLIAMS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: That`s right, Nancy. And I think the police officers and the investigators are moving very quickly. And they are trying to find out the person that they can, but they don`t want give too many details to the public. They want to make sure they can complete their investigation and catch him before he gets away.
GRACE: Then, of course, I notice that you`re saying a him. We don`t know who the suspect is. But let`s just get real about it. This is a town of 2,300 people, all right? You had to know Jessica Lunsford, or have been watching her as in the Elizabeth Smart case, to know to go to this home, her grandparent`s home, get the girl, and take her. So this is somebody she knows in the neighborhood, somebody she knows at school, somebody she knows through her family.
Very quickly, guys, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUTH LUNSFORD, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING NINE-YEAR-OLD: When God made Jessie, he made an angel. And we have always called her Princess. I know she`s out there. I hope she can hear it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I don`t know, Catherine Burton, behavioral therapist. I know that the authorities have stated the grandmother had some answers on a polygraph that raised alarm. But I don`t know. Just looking at her, I find it -- I mean, how does a 70-plus-year-old grandmother fit into a murder not leaving a clue? I don`t see it.
CATHERINE BURTON, PSYCHOLOGIST: I don`t see it, either. I can`t imagine somebody at that age who would do something like that. And besides, a polygraph test does not always give accurate results. You`re right. There are a lot of emotions involved in this case, and it could be a false reading.
GRACE: And the reality is, Marc Klaas, Catherine`s right. I pretty much swear by polygraphs, if they are given by a state authority. But we don`t know what question she failed up on. It could have been asking about this person of interest. Maybe she was covering or trying to make her relative look better in the eyes of police. Maybe she was covering for somebody else not involved in this case. Maybe it was about her husband`s criminal record. She could have failed an innocent question.
KLAAS: Yes, that`s absolutely correct. And I think there`s another thing that`s very significant. It`s a fact that the little purple dinosaur disappeared with the girl. Somebody had enough feelings, personal feelings for little Jessica, to allow her to take a toy with her.
A straight out sexual predator would not have done that. It`s only evidence. It only is a trail of evidence. So this is probably somebody close, somebody that knew her. Let`s hope it ends quickly and safely.
GRACE: You know what it says to me, Marc? It says to me this is someone that, in their minds, think they have a relationship with this little girl, like Elizabeth Smart and "Immanuel." Remember him, and Wanda Barzee, his henchman in crime?
They took the girl to be a child bride under some wacky religion and allowed her to take things from her room when she left like her shoes because they thought that he had a relationship with her. She was going to be his bride, for Pete`s sake. And in this case, allowing little Jessica Lunsford to take a dolly with her, the little purple dinosaur, it says a lot to me about who the perpetrator is.
KLAAS: Yes. It`s significant.
GRACE: One step closer to the truth in the case of Jessica Lunsford. We have not given up on little Jessie.
Elizabeth, as we go to break, how about a shot of Jessie? Please take a look, everyone.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Michael Jackson`s accuser finally off the stand. The boy witness there for days on end. The defense landed some serious punches. Can the prosecution make a comeback?
Tonight, in Denver, you know her well, defense attorney Lisa Wayne; in New York, former prosecutor Nichole Williams; defense attorney Richard Herman in Dallas; behavioral therapist Catherine Burton.
But first, to Santa Maria, California, and "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell.
Jane, I`m almost afraid to ask. What happened in court today?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, today, Nancy, this accuser explained himself, explained some of this questionable behavior. He said the reason that he told his dean that Michael Jackson didn`t do anything sexual with him is that when he went to school, after the Bashir documentary aired and after he`d left Neverland for good, he was being taunted by his classmates.
They were saying, "Look, there`s the boy who was raped by Michael Jackson." And he implied that he felt embarrassed and ashamed so that when the dean asked him, "Tell me the truth, did anything happen?" He said, "No, nothing happened," because he didn`t want anybody to think anything had happened because he wanted it all to go away. He was embarrassed.
GRACE: You know, Catherine Burton, I`ve been arguing with defense lawyers all day long about the significance of this boy not telling his principal -- I`m equating the dean to a principal. There in the high school.
What kid -- I mean, I know adult victims of child molestation that still don`t talk about what happened to them. It`s not a kind of thing you just blurt out just because somebody stops you in the hall and asks you.
BURTON: You`re exactly right, Nancy. I have dealt with many of these cases. And children feel very intimidated. There`s a lot of guilt. There`s a lot of shame. And there`s a lot of self-blame. Most of these young people, if they`ve been victimized, feel like in some way that they`re responsible, that they`ve caused it or in some way that they have to take responsibility, very often because the perpetrator had put that message in their heart.
GRACE: You know what? I could not have said it better, Catherine.
Nichole Williams, have you noticed in rape cases, in child molestation cases, even sometimes in robbery cases, the victim thinks, "Did I lead them on somehow? Did I come across the wrong way? Was I in the wrong place?" They always think somehow they`re responsible for somebody else`s crimes.
WILLIAMS: That`s right, Nancy. It`s victims of all kinds of crimes, robberies, rapes, any kind of crime that a person has to testify, something uncomfortable, something painful, they are going to have a difficult time admitting in other places. And it`s absolutely understandable. And I think this jury will give this boy a break on it.
GRACE: Well, apparently, they were watching him very, very carefully and taking a lot of notes when the boy would testify. Well, take a look at part of what the jury saw in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: People will say, "Why is he always with children." Well, I was raised in a world with adults. When kids were playing and in bed sleeping, I was up doing clubs. I was doing club dates 3:00 in the morning. The striptease would come on after us. You know, I was -- we were performing. And we weren`t -- we didn`t have friends.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from the rebuttal documentary cut by a Michael Jackson staffer.
Now, Jane Velez-Mitchell, this rebuttal documentary, the jury has seen it ad nauseum in the courtroom. But you know what? The defense has the right to do that. They can play or show the same evidence over, and over, and over if they can think up a new question to ask about it, right?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And the reason the defense is playing it over and over again is because it is so very damaging. This family does gush about Michael Jackson. They gush for about 40 minutes. They do it on the outtakes when they don`t think they`re on camera. And this is supposedly at the time that they were being held against their will.
And Tom Sneddon, the district attorney, on his redirect of the accuser tried to undo some of the damage today and say, "Hey, how do you feel about Michael Jackson now?" And I have to tell you, the answer was a little bit underwhelming. The boy said, "I really don`t like him anymore. I don`t think he deserves the respect that I used to give him as the coolest person in the world." But he didn`t emote a lot. He didn`t say, "I feel violated." He didn`t say Michael Jackson`s ruined my life, so I think that...
GRACE: Jane, Jane, Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... Tom Sneddon sort of got him off the stand because he was doing more harm than good in a sense.
GRACE: Catherine Burton, throw me a bone, all right? What do you expect? If this kid was molested, right? If, if. I haven`t heard the whole case. But if he was, do you think a 15-year-old boy is going to gush and go on, and on, and on about him being violated in front of a jury? Forget it.
BURTON: Not at all. Not at all, because of the shame and the guilt. And also, you have to realize that there`s a top of trauma bond that forms between a victim and his perpetrator. And very often, he feels very loyal to the victim and does not want to reveal any shameful information about the perpetrator.
GRACE: Lisa Wayne, I`m sure you`d be having a field day with this witness on the stand.
WAYNE: Well, you know, Nancy, I think what`s interesting about it is that this is the kid who is so ashamed about what happened he doesn`t want to tell the truth to the principal. And if he`s so ashamed, right now is the perfect time to get off the stand at the end, look at Michael Jackson and say, "I despise him," and let all of his friends in his community know that this was despicable. He hates him.
And that`s the way, if it`s consistent with what he`s telling us about not telling the principal, that would be consistent. And it`s not consistent. And that`s, you know, that would be part of my argument here if I`m Mesereau, is like, come on. Can you really buy this? Can you really buy what this kid is saying?
GRACE: You get a 15-year-old boy to talk about sex molestation where he`s the victim, I`ll give you a medal. I`ll give you a medal, Lisa Wayne.
WAYNE: This isn`t the normal 15-year-old boy, Nancy. That`s the difference.
GRACE: Well, says you, says you. I don`t know. He looks like the normal child molestation victim to me.
Quick break, quick break. To "Trial Tracking": Today, Atlanta courthouse shooter Brian Nichols first appearance in an Atlanta Fulton County jail. He showed up on a re-filed rape and sodomy charge. Nichols` alleged shooting rampage left four dead, including a superior court judge, Rowland Barnes. Nichols, shackled arms and legs, surrounded by 20 sheriff`s deputies, all unarmed, but now carrying tasers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE FRANK COX, COBB COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: With the charges faced against you, sir, you have a possible life imprisonment of rape, 20 years on aggravated assault with intent to rape, 20 years on aggravated sodomy, 10 years on false imprisonment, 20 years on burglary, and five years on possession of a firearm during the commission of a crime.
Those are the possible penalties you face on those charges, sir. Anything else you wish to say or need to ask the court, Mr. Nichols?
BRIAN NICHOLS, ATLANTA COURTHOUSE SHOOTER: Not at this time.
COX: All right, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: The moment I started breaking the all-time records of the biggest selling albums of all time, they called me weird overnight, strange, wacko. You know, they said I`m a girl, I`m homosexual. He wants to buy the Elephant Man bones. He sleeps in a hypodermic chamber. None of that stuff is true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: God, who would ever think Jackson`s weird? OK, that is from rebuttal documentary cut by a Jackson staffer.
Straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell from "Celebrity Justice." Jane, where do we stand now? Who`s on the stand?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ve heard from three law enforcement officers. The lead investigator, Sergeant Steve Robel, has been cross- examined by another defense attorney, Robert Sanger. And I have to tell you, he laid out a whole timeline, which took a long time, and then proceeded to attack the timeline.
One of the things that I`m wondering about this case is why nobody has set up a chart with the timeline. I mean, part of the problem for the prosecution is that everything is so darn confusing, the dates of every complicated conspiracy case. I don`t know why somebody just didn`t put up a chart with all the dates to make things simpler. And it really raises questions for both sides. But finally, we had a timeline, although it was attacked.
GRACE: Elizabeth, what is that he`s got draped across himself? Whoa, jewels of some sort. OK, that is neither here nor there, another appearance by Michael Jackson.
OK. You said, Jane, three law enforcement then the detective? Is that what you said?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there were three law enforcement officers on the stand including Sergeant Steve Robel who was the lead investigator...
GRACE: OK.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... in the case. And he was cross-examined by Robert Sanger today.
GRACE: What are they trying to do with these cop witnesses? I see this is the second phase of the trial. They have gotten the brother up, the sister up, the boy accuser up and now they`re going into police testimony. Are they bringing any hard evidence like computer drives, documents, porn, anything to support what this boy has said under oath?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Sergeant Robel did present some photographs of adult materials that were allegedly seized in Michael Jackson`s bedroom. These adult materials were not...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What do you call it that? Why do you call it that, adult material? It`s porn.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it wasn`t necessarily porn. One was a Bruce Weber coffee-table book that was apparently sent to the superstar by Bruce Weber. And that`s something that could be on anybody`s coffee table. I mean, that`s not what you would consider porn. But I have to tell you...
GRACE: Well, it is to me on what`s inside of it.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But I have to tell you, everybody`s talking about sounding the death knell for the prosecution`s case. "Celebrity Justice" has learned that the prosecution does have some surprises up its sleeve.
They, too, have apparently a star witness, a friend of one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, Marc Shaffell, who apparently took notes, very detailed notes, at the time of the alleged conspiracy and also may have secretly, in fact did, secretly record, our sources say, telephone conversations between him and some of the alleged unindicted co- conspirators. And this witness could be the star witness in the case doing for the prosecution what this accuser himself did not do for the prosecution team.
GRACE: Jane, you said that the state was bringing on adult materials. I find it very difficult to believe the state thought a coffee-table book was incriminating. Now, what`s in the book, Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we don`t know. We just saw three photographs that were apparently a box that contained adult materials. Here is the thing that I`m left with. I mean, the sense we got was that Michael Jackson`s Neverland was just awash with pornography. That`s kind of the sense we have gotten over the last few months. And so far, we haven`t seen that.
GRACE: OK. We`ll be right back with Jane Velez-Mitchell. I`m not letting it go, Jane. I want to hear about the magazines and what`s in the coffee-table book you`re talking about.
As we go to break, I want to remind you that we hear at Headline News want very much to help solve unsolved homicides. Tonight, take a look at Andre Price, 21-years-old shot dead outside his home visiting in Denver ten years ago. Please call the Carole Sund/Carrington Foundation. There may be a reward involved.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Thomas Roberts. And this is your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."
A Pentagon official now says all tests for anthrax at Pentagon postal facilities have come back negative. Some facilities were closed today because of positive results reported earlier. There are no signs of exposure to anthrax among workers. Five people were killed and 17 sickened in the 2001 anthrax attacks.
It`s judgment day for the man accused of playing a role in the largest bankruptcy in U.S. history. Former WorldCom chief Bernard Ebbers was found guilty on all nine counts in an $11 billion accounting fraud case. Ebbers could spend the rest of his life in prison.
And some good news today for breast cancer patients receiving radiation. Researchers say they may no longer face an increased risk of heart damage. A report in the journal of the National Cancer Institute credits improvements in radiation therapy with reducing the danger. More than 40 percent of women with breast cancer undergo radiation following surgery.
And that is the news for now. I`m Thomas Roberts. We take you back to NANCY GRACE.
GRACE: Michael Jackson, as a boy, growing up, turning into a man, a music icon. Many of us grew up dancing to Michael Jackson, loving Michael Jackson, wanting to be like Michael Jackson.
OK, wait a minute. Things are changing. Is that Michael -- this is Michael Jackson today. What the hey? Got my umbrella, got my umbrella holder, got my entourage, my bodyguard, my parents, my arm band, my fake military medal. I`m ready for court.
Welcome back, everybody.
OK, Jane, one last -- let me refresh your recollection, as I would say to witnesses that just simply would not answer the question. Did the words teenage, barely legal, total filth ring a bell?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that was -- and I feel like I`m under cross- examination -- the most incriminating evidence submitted today was a photograph of Teenage Magazine. And it said "Barely Legal, Total Filth."
Now, it was a photograph. We weren`t able to look at it and see what was inside it. But obviously that is an adult material. I mean, you can call it porn.
The defense did establish on cross-examination that no witnesses to anybody`s knowledge has actually seen -- no witnesses have seen that particular magazine. In other words, it is not something that the kids necessarily were looking at. It was just found in Michael Jackson`s bedroom.
GRACE: To Richard Herman, defense attorney, they have got to connect the porn to Jackson for it to mean anything. I mean, half the men in America, if not more, have a Penthouse or a Playboy or something stashed away in the house. You don`t go to jail for that.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I think this was insignificant today, this magazine.
But, Nancy, what was interesting -- the young accuser testified that...
GRACE: Richard, I bet you`ve got a Playboy at home.
HERMAN: How do you know?
GRACE: I can just look at you and tell.
HERMAN: You must have a Playgirl at home, too, I bet.
GRACE: I think it may even be a Penthouse. OK, go ahead.
HERMAN: I think you have a Playgirl at home. Come on, Nancy.
GRACE: I`m not wasting my $3. Trust me. Go ahead.
HERMAN: All right.
This accuser admitted on the stand that in most instances everything that was said about Michael Jackson in the rebuttal video was true. And don`t you find it significant this guilt and shame you claim the young accuser may have felt which precluded him from telling the dean of the school and precluded him from telling the Los Angeles police and child protective services, all of a sudden, a few months later, was relieved after he met a civil personal injury attorney and was speaking to the referred psychologist from that attorney.
I find that significant, Nancy. Don`t you?
GRACE: You know, Richard, I do. I really do. And we went into this thing knowing that there were going to be credibility problems with the boy. We knew he`d get ripped up on cross-examination. I just don`t know if the state`s going to be able to make a comeback, if the jury believes the boy anymore.
What it all boils down in my mind to, trial strategy, can you corroborate what the boy said? In other words, if this porn was found where the boy said it would be, that is very significant. If he says Jackson showed it to him, if Jackson took him to porn sites on a computer, if they can show that on the hard drive, that that day, at that time Jackson visits those sites, the boy will be corroborated.
Very quickly, we are going to switch gears to the Sarah Johnson trial. Remember the Idaho teen that local prosecutors say shot and killed her parents with a high-powered rifle? Well, her defense team says a mystery shooter pulled the trigger. The jury is now sequestered for deliberation.
From Boise, Idaho, Johnson`s defense attorney, Bob Pangburn, is joining us.
You are a brave man, because he`s seated alongside two prosecutors -- he`s outnumbered -- Jim Thomas, Justin Whatcott.
Very quickly to you, Jim, why sequester the jury? They hate that.
JIM THOMAS, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think given the fact that it`s a high-profile case, there`s been a lot of media coverage, Judge Wood felt it was appropriate. And I think it probably is in this case. Because it`s gathered a lot of media attention throughout the nation. So I think it`s probably a wise thing. I know the jury hates it. They`re sick of it already, I suspect.
GRACE: Well, aren`t you a tiny bit afraid, Bob Pangburn, that sequestering a jury will make them reach, basically, a grudge verdict? They`re sick of being in the Motel 8, they`re sick of the county courthouse food, so they come up with a verdict?
BOB PANGBURN, SARAH JOHNSON`S ATTORNEY: No. I think this jury is way too smart to do that. And I think, frankly, they are being treated pretty well. I`m not worried about a grudge verdict.
GRACE: Yes, well, you know, I think this jury has heard so many weeks of testimony, and they haven`t been out that long. How long have they been out, Justin?
JUSTIN WHATCOTT, PROSECUTOR: About a day and an hour so far. They`ve only deliberated for about an hour yesterday and then all day today. I suspect they`ve probably just begun to go through all of the evidence.
GRACE: You know, Bob Pangburn, you came up -- it`s very Johnny Cochran of you. Very Johnny Cochran, "No blood, no guilt." It reminds me, "If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit."
Bob, you say no blood, no guilt, but wasn`t her pink bathrobe covered in her mother`s blood? That`s blood. There`s blood all over the walls.
PANGBURN: A lot of blood around, and not a bit on her head at all. No blood, no guilt.
GRACE: OK, let me ask you a question, Bob. What became of her shower cap, the one that everybody had seen before but suddenly disappeared? I think I know what happened to it, her shower cap.
PANGBURN: You know, it`s funny about that shower cap. I don`t think we heard anything about that shower cap until rebuttal. I think the shower cap was something to try to patch up some of the other problems with this case. I don`t know. You`ll have to ask these two guys.
GRACE: You know, I think I will.
Jim Thomas, response?
THOMAS: Well, actually, Matt Johnson talked about it in his direct testimony at the very end. He did mention it, that there was a shower cap his sister kept in the shower all the time. Jim Vavold came on in rebuttal and said that he had seen it there Saturday night. But it actually came up in direct.
GRACE: To Richard Herman, defense attorney. You know, paracide, a slaying version of parenticide, is only about 2 percent of all homicides and about 70 to 80 percent of that is by males. This is a very rare case, Richard.
HERMAN: Extremely rare, Nancy. And I think while Mr. Pangburn has done a great job in the defense here, I think the evidence is overwhelming. I think there`s going to be a conviction here.
GRACE: You know, though, if you think about it, to Jim Thomas, this is a very tough sell to a jury. You look over at Sarah Johnson. Wasn`t she on her volleyball team? Her grades were good. It`s going to be hard for them to accept that she would gun down her mom and dad.
THOMAS: What`s always been a problem, Nancy, is trying to get over that hurdle that a 16-year-old girl could do something so horrendous. I think the evidence clearly points to the fact that she did.
Sarah`s a good actress. I think we saw that in court. She almost rivals her lead defense attorney in acting and theatrics. And I think Sarah probably put on a good show for them. But I think, in fact, if they look at the evidence, they`re going to come to no other conclusion. Sarah had to be the one that did this.
PANGBURN: And yet no blood has gotten on her head.
GRACE: Why? Why does Sarah have to be the one? Why does Sarah have to be the one, Jim?
THOMAS: You know, one of the things, that robe. I mean, is Bruno going to wear the robe? Bruno`s got an alibi. We`re still looking for these unknown shooters that Mr. Pangburn`s talked about. They`re not there. Everything was found within the house, within the suburban, within the guest house, areas that Sarah knew. So there`s just absolutely no other evidence that someone else was there.
Now, Mr. Pangburn talks unknown DNA and fingerprints. But basically we`re going to have four people in that house that are not associated with the family. I just don`t think it happened.
GRACE: Bob Pangburn, we`ll give you a chance to respond to that allegation that you are an actor.
And then we`ll go back to Catherine Burton. Boy, do we need a shrink. She is a psychologist and behavioral expert. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PANGBURN: Why would she wear her robe backwards? Why would the owner of a robe ever wear their robe backwards? Why would they do that? Why would they not just put the tie around and close it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Thank you for being with us.
Sixteen years old when she was accused of gunning down both her mother and father, her mother asleep in the bed, her father just coming out of the shower. Now facing two charges of murder one in an Idaho courtroom. The jury is sequestered and are in deliberations.
To Catherine Burton, psychologist, Catherine, the phenomenon of parenticide is extremely rare, even more rare in a young woman. What`s your take on this case?
BURTON: Well, one thing -- I think families do not have the ability to resolve conflict and anger builds up, and builds up, and builds up and reaches a threshold. And when that happens, we have a problem. Somebody`s going to get hurt.
Somebody has a rage attack and they explode impulsively. And that`s what we`re seeing. It`s just a build up of anger. And families can`t resolve anger. They don`t have the tools; they don`t have the skills.
GRACE: To, very quickly, Justin Whatcott, speaking of an impulsive outburst of rage, does anything point to premeditation as opposed to an outburst in this case?
WHATCOTT: All the evidence in this case, Nancy, points to premeditation. Somebody had to go around and collect all those items that were used in this crime. And when you look at the wearing of the robe, and the staging of the knives, and the things that went on during that crime scene, this was not an impulsive act. This was something that was thought out and carried out according to that plan.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: Alan had to die -- that is the long and short of it -- for her to live out her fantasy to live with Bruno. There was no other way. She could not get rid of her mother and still have her dad there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Jim, was this all over a boy, a boyfriend?
THOMAS: You know, I think, in essence, I mean, that was the straw that broke the camel`s back. There had been conflict with Diane and Sarah throughout. We know that from Dr. Beaver`s, from Dr. Lundt`s testimony, but I think ultimately it was.
Sarah was obsessed with Bruno. There`s no doubt about that. And when they prohibited her from seeing him, I mean, I think Sarah`s identity was wrapped up in Bruno`s, quote, "love for her." So I think it was. I mean, as odd as it sounds and as crazy as it sounds, I believe that`s what it was.
GRACE: Does it sound crazy, Catherine?
BURTON: Yes, but, you know, I`m seeing this more and more often particularly in young females, is that they have this love addiction or this love obsession for some male and they so much want the attention and approval that they project an idealized image on to him as though he`s this wonderful answer to all their dreams. And they get caught up in this romantic fantasy.
GRACE: She was so young to be looking for Mr. Right instead of Mr. Right Now. I mean, she is 16-years-old and to idealize this guy, Bruno Santos, illegal alien, high school dropout with a drug arrest.
But you guys may be right.
Bob Pangburn, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHATCOTT: All the evidence in this case, all of it, points towards Sarah Johnson. Sarah Johnson is the one who had the motive to commit this crime. She was obsessed with Bruno.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Bob Pangburn, what about claims your client, not only a double murderer, but that it was because she was obsessed with a boyfriend her parents disapproved of?
PANGBURN: Well, I`ve never believed that when I started this case. I believe it even less now. The person who had the motive to commit this crime, or more accurately what I believe to get his gang buddies to do it, was Bruno Santos.
He had been all over that property. He had access to it. He had been sneaking in and out of the house. Even had sex with this girl right in her own bed. And for anybody to say, to even believe, that he couldn`t have access to the entire property, to have found the guns, and had his buddies ready to do this is just -- I simply can`t see that it`s believable that that`s not what happened.
GRACE: Well, two things. Two things, Bob. Number one, it would be hard for me to believe her boyfriend had anything to do with the shootings and she not know about it and be an accomplice to it. And number two, none of the DNA, the fingerprints, nothing went back to Bruno Santos.
PANGBURN: But it didn`t go to Sarah, either. And nothing -- there`s been no indication in this case whatsoever that any leads from people who related to Bruno Santos, any people who were his friends, his associates, his relatives, that any of these people were seriously checked. You know, had we had these kinds of resources that the state had, I believe we could have found these people.
GRACE: OK, guys. Here`s the state`s case in a nutshell. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: She had to physically go around that bed, go into that bathroom, swing that gun up, and as Dad`s coming out of that shower, shoot him. That`s premeditation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let me go out to Lisa Wayne.
In this case, there was quite a bit of staging at the scene. In other words, we have been told that this girl loved murder mysteries. And when you get to the scene, knives have been laid point to point as if on display. There`s a knife lying on the bed as if it were some type of a weapon when clearly the high-powered rifle was the weapon. The scene was staged. What does that say to you, Lisa?
WAYNE: You know, it can say either a perfect set-up against this girl where this guy knew all of these things, he had intimate facts about who she was, and she was an easy set-up. And so to stage it makes her look like the obvious person. I mean, it`s difficult.
And, again, I have to agree with the defense lawyer on this, as well. When you have such a grizzly scene, you expect some physical evidence, an iota to be related to her. And jurors want that, they need it, and they ask for it.
GRACE: Her bathrobe was covered -- the girl`s bathrobe, Sarah Johnson`s bathrobe, covered in the mom`s blood.
WAYNE: Right. I understand that.
GRACE: That`s blood. Why does everybody keep saying there`s no blood?
WAYNE: And I think what the problem is that linked to, was she wearing that robe at the time that this happened or was someone else? Who set her up?
GRACE: OK, but Nichole, what about this theory, this other person came into the house? And if you are trying to say the boyfriend or his gang member friends did it, why would they try to set up his love interest? And if they were going to set her up by wearing her pink bathrobe during the murder, then why throw it away?
WILLIAMS: Exactly, Nancy. Why wouldn`t they take it with them with everything else? This is a very child-like staging of the scene. It`s clear that this young woman was desperate to get away from her parents. And apparently the only way she saw out was to kill them. But the killer would have taken the bathrobe with them. She just couldn`t leave it.
GRACE: Richard Herman, thoughts?
HERMAN: These are young kids here. And, you know, the more I hear about this gang-related activity, it`s a possibility. But this jury is going to want to convict on this. And that robe is devastating evidence against the defendant.
GRACE: And, Bob Pangburn, we have got 30 seconds left. We kind of ganged up on you tonight, friend. So go at it.
PANGBURN: Well, the one fact that I have never been able to figure out is how the physical aspect of blood flying through the air is going to stop at the collar of that robe and go no higher. It`s not going to be on her neck. It`s not going to be on her face. It`s not going to be in her ears. It`s not going to be in her ear piercings, her eyebrows or her hair, all of which were tested by the state. The state`s own forensic experts came all the way up from Boise to test her with very sensitive chemical kits. And nothing was there.
GRACE: OK, that`s just what you argued to the jury. "No blood, no guilt."
PANGBURN: Absolutely.
GRACE: Johnny Cochran would be so proud of you, Bob Pangburn.
Everybody, Bob is actually a veteran criminal defense attorney in the Idaho jurisdiction.
Quick break, but to "Trial Tracking": Celebrity lawyer Mark Geragos, who defended celebs like Michael Jackson, Winona Ryder, is planning to star on a reality TV show called "Extreme Justice." He`ll represent plaintiffs in civil suits.
Meanwhile, Scott Peterson will be formally sentenced to the murder of his wife and son tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, call 1-888-GRACE-01, 472-2301, or cnn.com/nancygrace.
Let`s go straight back out for the rebuttal argument from the state.
Justin Whatcott, what say you, sir?
WHATCOTT: I say one thing that nobody`s talking about, and nobody has pointed out on your show, at least that I have seen, is these 38 green paint particles on blue fibers that match those on her T-shirt. That puts that robe on her.
Nancy, it`s common sense.
GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Explain in simple terms.
WHATCOTT: The inside of that robe contained 38 blue fibers with green paint on them. That morning, Sarah was wearing a blue shirt with green paint on it.
GRACE: OK, you know what? That`s very powerful evidence.
I want to thank all of my guests that were with me tonight, all fantastic guests, Bob Pangburn, who is Sarah Johnson`s defense attorney, gave one heck of a closing statement, Jim Thomas and Justin Whatcott, who have presented the case for the state, veteran trial lawyers, trial lawyer defense attorney Lisa Wayne joining us, psychologist and behavior expert, Catherine Burton, high-profile defense attorney Richard Herman and former prosecutor Nichole Williams here in our set in New York.
Thank you to everyone.
I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I want to remind you all I`ll see you on Court TV tomorrow with the Peterson sentencing. That`s 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern.
To all of my guests, thank you.
And to the rest of you, thank you for inviting us into your homes this evening. I`ll see you tomorrow night right here, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good bye friend.
As we leave you, this is a shot of Jessie Lunsford`s bedroom where Jessie should be sleeping right now after three long weeks still missing, her bedside light still on.
MIKE GALANOS, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I`m Mike Galanos. And here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."
Italy`s premiere reportedly says his country will start pulling its troops out of Iraq this fall. Italian news reports say the withdraw could begin in September. Public opinion for involvement in Iraq among Italians has declined, especially after U.S. troops accidentally killed an Italian security agent and wounded a journalist. Italy has about 3,000 troops in the region.
The former CEO of WorldCom has been convicted on all nine counts of helping to mastermind an $11 billion accounting fraud. Bernard Ebbers faces sentencing in June and could get up to 85 years in prison. The scandal led to the largest bankruptcy in U.S. history.
And spring may seem far away in the Southwest. Snow fell throughout much of Texas and Oklahoma panhandles, and parts of New Mexico were covered by two to three feet of snow. Those stories and more when Erica Hill joins me for "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT." That`s coming up next.
END
Aired March 15, 2005 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, where is Jessie, the nine-year-old Florida girl who disappeared from her own bedroom in February. Tonight, a break in the case. We take you there live.
And Michael Jackson`s alleged child molestation victim under attack. The boy described under oath being teased by classmates about sex with Michael Jackson.
And we are on a "Verdict Watch" in the Sarah Johnson trial. The 16- year-old girl from Idaho on trial for the shooting deaths of her own parents. The jury, now sequestered, is in deliberations.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
The Michael Jackson prosecution now entering a new phase in its case against the music icon. The boy accuser off the stand following a brutal cross and then re-direct exam. Now, hard evidence coming in to court to help corroborate the boy`s testimony, testimony about child molestation at Michael Jackson`s hands.
And Sarah Johnson facing two counts of murder one. The victims, her mom and dad. An Idaho jury now deciding whether she`s off to college or to the ladies` penitentiary.
But first, where is Jessie Lunsford, the nine-year-old missing for weeks now?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUTH LUNSFORD, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING GIRL: So I went in there and I put her to bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): On March 4th, Jessie Lunsford`s grandmother, Ruth, was given a polygraph test by the FBI. After reviewing those results, police now say Ruth gave at least two responses that raised red flags. Police will not elaborate on those responses but tell us they have conducted further interviews with Jessie`s grandma.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let`s go straight out to San Francisco and victim`s advocate, Marc Klaas. Also with us tonight, in Denver, defense attorney Lisa Wayne; in New York, former prosecutor Nichole Williams; in Dallas, behavioral therapist Catherine Burton.
Welcome, everyone.
To you, Marc Klaas. Marc, what`s your take on the person of interest in the Jessica Lunsford case?
MARC KLAAS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, I think that reinforces everything that we have thought all along, that this is probably very close to the family in one way or the other. I think what we`re probably going to find out, since they know who this individual is, they are actively looking for this individual.
They suspect that he`s out of state or that this individual is out of state, that it`s probably somebody from a close circle, either the parent of a friend of Jessie`s, either somebody from the school, somebody from the church and/or somebody from the neighborhood. I think they`re much closer today than they were in the past and that this case will probably break wide open within the next couple of -- well, hopefully by week end.
GRACE: Lisa Wayne, why would someone acquainted with this girl, unless they had a preplanned vacation or somebody`s in the hospital, Lisa, defense attorney, why would somebody just leave the jurisdiction, leave the state, and disappear? That`s not ringing a red bell to you?
LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I think I agree with you, Nancy. I think that does ring a red bell. And I think what`s interesting to me is that the FBI felt it necessary to take the steps to polygraph the grandmother. I mean, that`s not always the case in these situations.
And something that she said either alerted them, or they`re throwing out a red herring to the public somehow and somehow trying to bring in someone under some other kind of guise. I mean, it`s very interesting, but, again, it`s not the usual step to give someone a polygraph if they believe what she`s telling them.
GRACE: Well, Lisa, I know where you`re coming from. And it`s hard to rope somebody into a polygraph.
But Marc Klaas, when your little girl, Polly, went missing, you begged, "Please, polygraph me. Search my house, search my car, do anything. Just move on with the investigation." You took a polygraph and passed with flying colors.
KLAAS: Well, you know, I did, and other members of my family did, as well. And they really have no choice but to try to eliminate the people that were closest to her so they can spread it out.
I don`t know how much one can read into this polygraph of the grandmother. She is elderly. And this probably is the most traumatic episode of her life. So, I mean, her emotions have to be jumping all over the place.
GRACE: Well, you know, anybody strapped up to a polygraph machine is going to have emotions, all right?
KLAAS: Of course.
GRACE: But, you know, I don`t know how much emotion had to do with failing some questions on a polygraph. But take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF JEFF DAWSY, CITRUS COUNTY, FLA.: We have followed up over 3,000 leads. This particular lead led us to believe there was some true credence and that we needed to go out and start looking for this individual. I am watching what I say. He is in a region -- we believe he is in a specific region. And that`s the reason why we have not released his name yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. If you don`t know already, there is a person of interest. They are calling it in the Jessica Lunsford disappearance, the nine-year- old little girl out of Florida, taken out of her bedroom at her grandparent`s house.
To Nichole Williams, you know, they called Scott Peterson a person of interest for a really long time until they finally arrested him.
NICHOLE WILLIAMS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: That`s right, Nancy. And I think the police officers and the investigators are moving very quickly. And they are trying to find out the person that they can, but they don`t want give too many details to the public. They want to make sure they can complete their investigation and catch him before he gets away.
GRACE: Then, of course, I notice that you`re saying a him. We don`t know who the suspect is. But let`s just get real about it. This is a town of 2,300 people, all right? You had to know Jessica Lunsford, or have been watching her as in the Elizabeth Smart case, to know to go to this home, her grandparent`s home, get the girl, and take her. So this is somebody she knows in the neighborhood, somebody she knows at school, somebody she knows through her family.
Very quickly, guys, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUTH LUNSFORD, GRANDMOTHER OF MISSING NINE-YEAR-OLD: When God made Jessie, he made an angel. And we have always called her Princess. I know she`s out there. I hope she can hear it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: I don`t know, Catherine Burton, behavioral therapist. I know that the authorities have stated the grandmother had some answers on a polygraph that raised alarm. But I don`t know. Just looking at her, I find it -- I mean, how does a 70-plus-year-old grandmother fit into a murder not leaving a clue? I don`t see it.
CATHERINE BURTON, PSYCHOLOGIST: I don`t see it, either. I can`t imagine somebody at that age who would do something like that. And besides, a polygraph test does not always give accurate results. You`re right. There are a lot of emotions involved in this case, and it could be a false reading.
GRACE: And the reality is, Marc Klaas, Catherine`s right. I pretty much swear by polygraphs, if they are given by a state authority. But we don`t know what question she failed up on. It could have been asking about this person of interest. Maybe she was covering or trying to make her relative look better in the eyes of police. Maybe she was covering for somebody else not involved in this case. Maybe it was about her husband`s criminal record. She could have failed an innocent question.
KLAAS: Yes, that`s absolutely correct. And I think there`s another thing that`s very significant. It`s a fact that the little purple dinosaur disappeared with the girl. Somebody had enough feelings, personal feelings for little Jessica, to allow her to take a toy with her.
A straight out sexual predator would not have done that. It`s only evidence. It only is a trail of evidence. So this is probably somebody close, somebody that knew her. Let`s hope it ends quickly and safely.
GRACE: You know what it says to me, Marc? It says to me this is someone that, in their minds, think they have a relationship with this little girl, like Elizabeth Smart and "Immanuel." Remember him, and Wanda Barzee, his henchman in crime?
They took the girl to be a child bride under some wacky religion and allowed her to take things from her room when she left like her shoes because they thought that he had a relationship with her. She was going to be his bride, for Pete`s sake. And in this case, allowing little Jessica Lunsford to take a dolly with her, the little purple dinosaur, it says a lot to me about who the perpetrator is.
KLAAS: Yes. It`s significant.
GRACE: One step closer to the truth in the case of Jessica Lunsford. We have not given up on little Jessie.
Elizabeth, as we go to break, how about a shot of Jessie? Please take a look, everyone.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Michael Jackson`s accuser finally off the stand. The boy witness there for days on end. The defense landed some serious punches. Can the prosecution make a comeback?
Tonight, in Denver, you know her well, defense attorney Lisa Wayne; in New York, former prosecutor Nichole Williams; defense attorney Richard Herman in Dallas; behavioral therapist Catherine Burton.
But first, to Santa Maria, California, and "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell.
Jane, I`m almost afraid to ask. What happened in court today?
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, today, Nancy, this accuser explained himself, explained some of this questionable behavior. He said the reason that he told his dean that Michael Jackson didn`t do anything sexual with him is that when he went to school, after the Bashir documentary aired and after he`d left Neverland for good, he was being taunted by his classmates.
They were saying, "Look, there`s the boy who was raped by Michael Jackson." And he implied that he felt embarrassed and ashamed so that when the dean asked him, "Tell me the truth, did anything happen?" He said, "No, nothing happened," because he didn`t want anybody to think anything had happened because he wanted it all to go away. He was embarrassed.
GRACE: You know, Catherine Burton, I`ve been arguing with defense lawyers all day long about the significance of this boy not telling his principal -- I`m equating the dean to a principal. There in the high school.
What kid -- I mean, I know adult victims of child molestation that still don`t talk about what happened to them. It`s not a kind of thing you just blurt out just because somebody stops you in the hall and asks you.
BURTON: You`re exactly right, Nancy. I have dealt with many of these cases. And children feel very intimidated. There`s a lot of guilt. There`s a lot of shame. And there`s a lot of self-blame. Most of these young people, if they`ve been victimized, feel like in some way that they`re responsible, that they`ve caused it or in some way that they have to take responsibility, very often because the perpetrator had put that message in their heart.
GRACE: You know what? I could not have said it better, Catherine.
Nichole Williams, have you noticed in rape cases, in child molestation cases, even sometimes in robbery cases, the victim thinks, "Did I lead them on somehow? Did I come across the wrong way? Was I in the wrong place?" They always think somehow they`re responsible for somebody else`s crimes.
WILLIAMS: That`s right, Nancy. It`s victims of all kinds of crimes, robberies, rapes, any kind of crime that a person has to testify, something uncomfortable, something painful, they are going to have a difficult time admitting in other places. And it`s absolutely understandable. And I think this jury will give this boy a break on it.
GRACE: Well, apparently, they were watching him very, very carefully and taking a lot of notes when the boy would testify. Well, take a look at part of what the jury saw in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: People will say, "Why is he always with children." Well, I was raised in a world with adults. When kids were playing and in bed sleeping, I was up doing clubs. I was doing club dates 3:00 in the morning. The striptease would come on after us. You know, I was -- we were performing. And we weren`t -- we didn`t have friends.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: That is from the rebuttal documentary cut by a Michael Jackson staffer.
Now, Jane Velez-Mitchell, this rebuttal documentary, the jury has seen it ad nauseum in the courtroom. But you know what? The defense has the right to do that. They can play or show the same evidence over, and over, and over if they can think up a new question to ask about it, right?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And the reason the defense is playing it over and over again is because it is so very damaging. This family does gush about Michael Jackson. They gush for about 40 minutes. They do it on the outtakes when they don`t think they`re on camera. And this is supposedly at the time that they were being held against their will.
And Tom Sneddon, the district attorney, on his redirect of the accuser tried to undo some of the damage today and say, "Hey, how do you feel about Michael Jackson now?" And I have to tell you, the answer was a little bit underwhelming. The boy said, "I really don`t like him anymore. I don`t think he deserves the respect that I used to give him as the coolest person in the world." But he didn`t emote a lot. He didn`t say, "I feel violated." He didn`t say Michael Jackson`s ruined my life, so I think that...
GRACE: Jane, Jane, Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... Tom Sneddon sort of got him off the stand because he was doing more harm than good in a sense.
GRACE: Catherine Burton, throw me a bone, all right? What do you expect? If this kid was molested, right? If, if. I haven`t heard the whole case. But if he was, do you think a 15-year-old boy is going to gush and go on, and on, and on about him being violated in front of a jury? Forget it.
BURTON: Not at all. Not at all, because of the shame and the guilt. And also, you have to realize that there`s a top of trauma bond that forms between a victim and his perpetrator. And very often, he feels very loyal to the victim and does not want to reveal any shameful information about the perpetrator.
GRACE: Lisa Wayne, I`m sure you`d be having a field day with this witness on the stand.
WAYNE: Well, you know, Nancy, I think what`s interesting about it is that this is the kid who is so ashamed about what happened he doesn`t want to tell the truth to the principal. And if he`s so ashamed, right now is the perfect time to get off the stand at the end, look at Michael Jackson and say, "I despise him," and let all of his friends in his community know that this was despicable. He hates him.
And that`s the way, if it`s consistent with what he`s telling us about not telling the principal, that would be consistent. And it`s not consistent. And that`s, you know, that would be part of my argument here if I`m Mesereau, is like, come on. Can you really buy this? Can you really buy what this kid is saying?
GRACE: You get a 15-year-old boy to talk about sex molestation where he`s the victim, I`ll give you a medal. I`ll give you a medal, Lisa Wayne.
WAYNE: This isn`t the normal 15-year-old boy, Nancy. That`s the difference.
GRACE: Well, says you, says you. I don`t know. He looks like the normal child molestation victim to me.
Quick break, quick break. To "Trial Tracking": Today, Atlanta courthouse shooter Brian Nichols first appearance in an Atlanta Fulton County jail. He showed up on a re-filed rape and sodomy charge. Nichols` alleged shooting rampage left four dead, including a superior court judge, Rowland Barnes. Nichols, shackled arms and legs, surrounded by 20 sheriff`s deputies, all unarmed, but now carrying tasers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE FRANK COX, COBB COUNTY SUPERIOR COURT: With the charges faced against you, sir, you have a possible life imprisonment of rape, 20 years on aggravated assault with intent to rape, 20 years on aggravated sodomy, 10 years on false imprisonment, 20 years on burglary, and five years on possession of a firearm during the commission of a crime.
Those are the possible penalties you face on those charges, sir. Anything else you wish to say or need to ask the court, Mr. Nichols?
BRIAN NICHOLS, ATLANTA COURTHOUSE SHOOTER: Not at this time.
COX: All right, sir.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACKSON: The moment I started breaking the all-time records of the biggest selling albums of all time, they called me weird overnight, strange, wacko. You know, they said I`m a girl, I`m homosexual. He wants to buy the Elephant Man bones. He sleeps in a hypodermic chamber. None of that stuff is true.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: God, who would ever think Jackson`s weird? OK, that is from rebuttal documentary cut by a Jackson staffer.
Straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell from "Celebrity Justice." Jane, where do we stand now? Who`s on the stand?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we`ve heard from three law enforcement officers. The lead investigator, Sergeant Steve Robel, has been cross- examined by another defense attorney, Robert Sanger. And I have to tell you, he laid out a whole timeline, which took a long time, and then proceeded to attack the timeline.
One of the things that I`m wondering about this case is why nobody has set up a chart with the timeline. I mean, part of the problem for the prosecution is that everything is so darn confusing, the dates of every complicated conspiracy case. I don`t know why somebody just didn`t put up a chart with all the dates to make things simpler. And it really raises questions for both sides. But finally, we had a timeline, although it was attacked.
GRACE: Elizabeth, what is that he`s got draped across himself? Whoa, jewels of some sort. OK, that is neither here nor there, another appearance by Michael Jackson.
OK. You said, Jane, three law enforcement then the detective? Is that what you said?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, there were three law enforcement officers on the stand including Sergeant Steve Robel who was the lead investigator...
GRACE: OK.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... in the case. And he was cross-examined by Robert Sanger today.
GRACE: What are they trying to do with these cop witnesses? I see this is the second phase of the trial. They have gotten the brother up, the sister up, the boy accuser up and now they`re going into police testimony. Are they bringing any hard evidence like computer drives, documents, porn, anything to support what this boy has said under oath?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Sergeant Robel did present some photographs of adult materials that were allegedly seized in Michael Jackson`s bedroom. These adult materials were not...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: What do you call it that? Why do you call it that, adult material? It`s porn.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it wasn`t necessarily porn. One was a Bruce Weber coffee-table book that was apparently sent to the superstar by Bruce Weber. And that`s something that could be on anybody`s coffee table. I mean, that`s not what you would consider porn. But I have to tell you...
GRACE: Well, it is to me on what`s inside of it.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But I have to tell you, everybody`s talking about sounding the death knell for the prosecution`s case. "Celebrity Justice" has learned that the prosecution does have some surprises up its sleeve.
They, too, have apparently a star witness, a friend of one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, Marc Shaffell, who apparently took notes, very detailed notes, at the time of the alleged conspiracy and also may have secretly, in fact did, secretly record, our sources say, telephone conversations between him and some of the alleged unindicted co- conspirators. And this witness could be the star witness in the case doing for the prosecution what this accuser himself did not do for the prosecution team.
GRACE: Jane, you said that the state was bringing on adult materials. I find it very difficult to believe the state thought a coffee-table book was incriminating. Now, what`s in the book, Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we don`t know. We just saw three photographs that were apparently a box that contained adult materials. Here is the thing that I`m left with. I mean, the sense we got was that Michael Jackson`s Neverland was just awash with pornography. That`s kind of the sense we have gotten over the last few months. And so far, we haven`t seen that.
GRACE: OK. We`ll be right back with Jane Velez-Mitchell. I`m not letting it go, Jane. I want to hear about the magazines and what`s in the coffee-table book you`re talking about.
As we go to break, I want to remind you that we hear at Headline News want very much to help solve unsolved homicides. Tonight, take a look at Andre Price, 21-years-old shot dead outside his home visiting in Denver ten years ago. Please call the Carole Sund/Carrington Foundation. There may be a reward involved.
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THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Thomas Roberts. And this is your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."
A Pentagon official now says all tests for anthrax at Pentagon postal facilities have come back negative. Some facilities were closed today because of positive results reported earlier. There are no signs of exposure to anthrax among workers. Five people were killed and 17 sickened in the 2001 anthrax attacks.
It`s judgment day for the man accused of playing a role in the largest bankruptcy in U.S. history. Former WorldCom chief Bernard Ebbers was found guilty on all nine counts in an $11 billion accounting fraud case. Ebbers could spend the rest of his life in prison.
And some good news today for breast cancer patients receiving radiation. Researchers say they may no longer face an increased risk of heart damage. A report in the journal of the National Cancer Institute credits improvements in radiation therapy with reducing the danger. More than 40 percent of women with breast cancer undergo radiation following surgery.
And that is the news for now. I`m Thomas Roberts. We take you back to NANCY GRACE.
GRACE: Michael Jackson, as a boy, growing up, turning into a man, a music icon. Many of us grew up dancing to Michael Jackson, loving Michael Jackson, wanting to be like Michael Jackson.
OK, wait a minute. Things are changing. Is that Michael -- this is Michael Jackson today. What the hey? Got my umbrella, got my umbrella holder, got my entourage, my bodyguard, my parents, my arm band, my fake military medal. I`m ready for court.
Welcome back, everybody.
OK, Jane, one last -- let me refresh your recollection, as I would say to witnesses that just simply would not answer the question. Did the words teenage, barely legal, total filth ring a bell?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that was -- and I feel like I`m under cross- examination -- the most incriminating evidence submitted today was a photograph of Teenage Magazine. And it said "Barely Legal, Total Filth."
Now, it was a photograph. We weren`t able to look at it and see what was inside it. But obviously that is an adult material. I mean, you can call it porn.
The defense did establish on cross-examination that no witnesses to anybody`s knowledge has actually seen -- no witnesses have seen that particular magazine. In other words, it is not something that the kids necessarily were looking at. It was just found in Michael Jackson`s bedroom.
GRACE: To Richard Herman, defense attorney, they have got to connect the porn to Jackson for it to mean anything. I mean, half the men in America, if not more, have a Penthouse or a Playboy or something stashed away in the house. You don`t go to jail for that.
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I think this was insignificant today, this magazine.
But, Nancy, what was interesting -- the young accuser testified that...
GRACE: Richard, I bet you`ve got a Playboy at home.
HERMAN: How do you know?
GRACE: I can just look at you and tell.
HERMAN: You must have a Playgirl at home, too, I bet.
GRACE: I think it may even be a Penthouse. OK, go ahead.
HERMAN: I think you have a Playgirl at home. Come on, Nancy.
GRACE: I`m not wasting my $3. Trust me. Go ahead.
HERMAN: All right.
This accuser admitted on the stand that in most instances everything that was said about Michael Jackson in the rebuttal video was true. And don`t you find it significant this guilt and shame you claim the young accuser may have felt which precluded him from telling the dean of the school and precluded him from telling the Los Angeles police and child protective services, all of a sudden, a few months later, was relieved after he met a civil personal injury attorney and was speaking to the referred psychologist from that attorney.
I find that significant, Nancy. Don`t you?
GRACE: You know, Richard, I do. I really do. And we went into this thing knowing that there were going to be credibility problems with the boy. We knew he`d get ripped up on cross-examination. I just don`t know if the state`s going to be able to make a comeback, if the jury believes the boy anymore.
What it all boils down in my mind to, trial strategy, can you corroborate what the boy said? In other words, if this porn was found where the boy said it would be, that is very significant. If he says Jackson showed it to him, if Jackson took him to porn sites on a computer, if they can show that on the hard drive, that that day, at that time Jackson visits those sites, the boy will be corroborated.
Very quickly, we are going to switch gears to the Sarah Johnson trial. Remember the Idaho teen that local prosecutors say shot and killed her parents with a high-powered rifle? Well, her defense team says a mystery shooter pulled the trigger. The jury is now sequestered for deliberation.
From Boise, Idaho, Johnson`s defense attorney, Bob Pangburn, is joining us.
You are a brave man, because he`s seated alongside two prosecutors -- he`s outnumbered -- Jim Thomas, Justin Whatcott.
Very quickly to you, Jim, why sequester the jury? They hate that.
JIM THOMAS, PROSECUTOR: Well, I think given the fact that it`s a high-profile case, there`s been a lot of media coverage, Judge Wood felt it was appropriate. And I think it probably is in this case. Because it`s gathered a lot of media attention throughout the nation. So I think it`s probably a wise thing. I know the jury hates it. They`re sick of it already, I suspect.
GRACE: Well, aren`t you a tiny bit afraid, Bob Pangburn, that sequestering a jury will make them reach, basically, a grudge verdict? They`re sick of being in the Motel 8, they`re sick of the county courthouse food, so they come up with a verdict?
BOB PANGBURN, SARAH JOHNSON`S ATTORNEY: No. I think this jury is way too smart to do that. And I think, frankly, they are being treated pretty well. I`m not worried about a grudge verdict.
GRACE: Yes, well, you know, I think this jury has heard so many weeks of testimony, and they haven`t been out that long. How long have they been out, Justin?
JUSTIN WHATCOTT, PROSECUTOR: About a day and an hour so far. They`ve only deliberated for about an hour yesterday and then all day today. I suspect they`ve probably just begun to go through all of the evidence.
GRACE: You know, Bob Pangburn, you came up -- it`s very Johnny Cochran of you. Very Johnny Cochran, "No blood, no guilt." It reminds me, "If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit."
Bob, you say no blood, no guilt, but wasn`t her pink bathrobe covered in her mother`s blood? That`s blood. There`s blood all over the walls.
PANGBURN: A lot of blood around, and not a bit on her head at all. No blood, no guilt.
GRACE: OK, let me ask you a question, Bob. What became of her shower cap, the one that everybody had seen before but suddenly disappeared? I think I know what happened to it, her shower cap.
PANGBURN: You know, it`s funny about that shower cap. I don`t think we heard anything about that shower cap until rebuttal. I think the shower cap was something to try to patch up some of the other problems with this case. I don`t know. You`ll have to ask these two guys.
GRACE: You know, I think I will.
Jim Thomas, response?
THOMAS: Well, actually, Matt Johnson talked about it in his direct testimony at the very end. He did mention it, that there was a shower cap his sister kept in the shower all the time. Jim Vavold came on in rebuttal and said that he had seen it there Saturday night. But it actually came up in direct.
GRACE: To Richard Herman, defense attorney. You know, paracide, a slaying version of parenticide, is only about 2 percent of all homicides and about 70 to 80 percent of that is by males. This is a very rare case, Richard.
HERMAN: Extremely rare, Nancy. And I think while Mr. Pangburn has done a great job in the defense here, I think the evidence is overwhelming. I think there`s going to be a conviction here.
GRACE: You know, though, if you think about it, to Jim Thomas, this is a very tough sell to a jury. You look over at Sarah Johnson. Wasn`t she on her volleyball team? Her grades were good. It`s going to be hard for them to accept that she would gun down her mom and dad.
THOMAS: What`s always been a problem, Nancy, is trying to get over that hurdle that a 16-year-old girl could do something so horrendous. I think the evidence clearly points to the fact that she did.
Sarah`s a good actress. I think we saw that in court. She almost rivals her lead defense attorney in acting and theatrics. And I think Sarah probably put on a good show for them. But I think, in fact, if they look at the evidence, they`re going to come to no other conclusion. Sarah had to be the one that did this.
PANGBURN: And yet no blood has gotten on her head.
GRACE: Why? Why does Sarah have to be the one? Why does Sarah have to be the one, Jim?
THOMAS: You know, one of the things, that robe. I mean, is Bruno going to wear the robe? Bruno`s got an alibi. We`re still looking for these unknown shooters that Mr. Pangburn`s talked about. They`re not there. Everything was found within the house, within the suburban, within the guest house, areas that Sarah knew. So there`s just absolutely no other evidence that someone else was there.
Now, Mr. Pangburn talks unknown DNA and fingerprints. But basically we`re going to have four people in that house that are not associated with the family. I just don`t think it happened.
GRACE: Bob Pangburn, we`ll give you a chance to respond to that allegation that you are an actor.
And then we`ll go back to Catherine Burton. Boy, do we need a shrink. She is a psychologist and behavioral expert. Stay with us.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PANGBURN: Why would she wear her robe backwards? Why would the owner of a robe ever wear their robe backwards? Why would they do that? Why would they not just put the tie around and close it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Thank you for being with us.
Sixteen years old when she was accused of gunning down both her mother and father, her mother asleep in the bed, her father just coming out of the shower. Now facing two charges of murder one in an Idaho courtroom. The jury is sequestered and are in deliberations.
To Catherine Burton, psychologist, Catherine, the phenomenon of parenticide is extremely rare, even more rare in a young woman. What`s your take on this case?
BURTON: Well, one thing -- I think families do not have the ability to resolve conflict and anger builds up, and builds up, and builds up and reaches a threshold. And when that happens, we have a problem. Somebody`s going to get hurt.
Somebody has a rage attack and they explode impulsively. And that`s what we`re seeing. It`s just a build up of anger. And families can`t resolve anger. They don`t have the tools; they don`t have the skills.
GRACE: To, very quickly, Justin Whatcott, speaking of an impulsive outburst of rage, does anything point to premeditation as opposed to an outburst in this case?
WHATCOTT: All the evidence in this case, Nancy, points to premeditation. Somebody had to go around and collect all those items that were used in this crime. And when you look at the wearing of the robe, and the staging of the knives, and the things that went on during that crime scene, this was not an impulsive act. This was something that was thought out and carried out according to that plan.
GRACE: Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: Alan had to die -- that is the long and short of it -- for her to live out her fantasy to live with Bruno. There was no other way. She could not get rid of her mother and still have her dad there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Jim, was this all over a boy, a boyfriend?
THOMAS: You know, I think, in essence, I mean, that was the straw that broke the camel`s back. There had been conflict with Diane and Sarah throughout. We know that from Dr. Beaver`s, from Dr. Lundt`s testimony, but I think ultimately it was.
Sarah was obsessed with Bruno. There`s no doubt about that. And when they prohibited her from seeing him, I mean, I think Sarah`s identity was wrapped up in Bruno`s, quote, "love for her." So I think it was. I mean, as odd as it sounds and as crazy as it sounds, I believe that`s what it was.
GRACE: Does it sound crazy, Catherine?
BURTON: Yes, but, you know, I`m seeing this more and more often particularly in young females, is that they have this love addiction or this love obsession for some male and they so much want the attention and approval that they project an idealized image on to him as though he`s this wonderful answer to all their dreams. And they get caught up in this romantic fantasy.
GRACE: She was so young to be looking for Mr. Right instead of Mr. Right Now. I mean, she is 16-years-old and to idealize this guy, Bruno Santos, illegal alien, high school dropout with a drug arrest.
But you guys may be right.
Bob Pangburn, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WHATCOTT: All the evidence in this case, all of it, points towards Sarah Johnson. Sarah Johnson is the one who had the motive to commit this crime. She was obsessed with Bruno.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Bob Pangburn, what about claims your client, not only a double murderer, but that it was because she was obsessed with a boyfriend her parents disapproved of?
PANGBURN: Well, I`ve never believed that when I started this case. I believe it even less now. The person who had the motive to commit this crime, or more accurately what I believe to get his gang buddies to do it, was Bruno Santos.
He had been all over that property. He had access to it. He had been sneaking in and out of the house. Even had sex with this girl right in her own bed. And for anybody to say, to even believe, that he couldn`t have access to the entire property, to have found the guns, and had his buddies ready to do this is just -- I simply can`t see that it`s believable that that`s not what happened.
GRACE: Well, two things. Two things, Bob. Number one, it would be hard for me to believe her boyfriend had anything to do with the shootings and she not know about it and be an accomplice to it. And number two, none of the DNA, the fingerprints, nothing went back to Bruno Santos.
PANGBURN: But it didn`t go to Sarah, either. And nothing -- there`s been no indication in this case whatsoever that any leads from people who related to Bruno Santos, any people who were his friends, his associates, his relatives, that any of these people were seriously checked. You know, had we had these kinds of resources that the state had, I believe we could have found these people.
GRACE: OK, guys. Here`s the state`s case in a nutshell. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS: She had to physically go around that bed, go into that bathroom, swing that gun up, and as Dad`s coming out of that shower, shoot him. That`s premeditation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Let me go out to Lisa Wayne.
In this case, there was quite a bit of staging at the scene. In other words, we have been told that this girl loved murder mysteries. And when you get to the scene, knives have been laid point to point as if on display. There`s a knife lying on the bed as if it were some type of a weapon when clearly the high-powered rifle was the weapon. The scene was staged. What does that say to you, Lisa?
WAYNE: You know, it can say either a perfect set-up against this girl where this guy knew all of these things, he had intimate facts about who she was, and she was an easy set-up. And so to stage it makes her look like the obvious person. I mean, it`s difficult.
And, again, I have to agree with the defense lawyer on this, as well. When you have such a grizzly scene, you expect some physical evidence, an iota to be related to her. And jurors want that, they need it, and they ask for it.
GRACE: Her bathrobe was covered -- the girl`s bathrobe, Sarah Johnson`s bathrobe, covered in the mom`s blood.
WAYNE: Right. I understand that.
GRACE: That`s blood. Why does everybody keep saying there`s no blood?
WAYNE: And I think what the problem is that linked to, was she wearing that robe at the time that this happened or was someone else? Who set her up?
GRACE: OK, but Nichole, what about this theory, this other person came into the house? And if you are trying to say the boyfriend or his gang member friends did it, why would they try to set up his love interest? And if they were going to set her up by wearing her pink bathrobe during the murder, then why throw it away?
WILLIAMS: Exactly, Nancy. Why wouldn`t they take it with them with everything else? This is a very child-like staging of the scene. It`s clear that this young woman was desperate to get away from her parents. And apparently the only way she saw out was to kill them. But the killer would have taken the bathrobe with them. She just couldn`t leave it.
GRACE: Richard Herman, thoughts?
HERMAN: These are young kids here. And, you know, the more I hear about this gang-related activity, it`s a possibility. But this jury is going to want to convict on this. And that robe is devastating evidence against the defendant.
GRACE: And, Bob Pangburn, we have got 30 seconds left. We kind of ganged up on you tonight, friend. So go at it.
PANGBURN: Well, the one fact that I have never been able to figure out is how the physical aspect of blood flying through the air is going to stop at the collar of that robe and go no higher. It`s not going to be on her neck. It`s not going to be on her face. It`s not going to be in her ears. It`s not going to be in her ear piercings, her eyebrows or her hair, all of which were tested by the state. The state`s own forensic experts came all the way up from Boise to test her with very sensitive chemical kits. And nothing was there.
GRACE: OK, that`s just what you argued to the jury. "No blood, no guilt."
PANGBURN: Absolutely.
GRACE: Johnny Cochran would be so proud of you, Bob Pangburn.
Everybody, Bob is actually a veteran criminal defense attorney in the Idaho jurisdiction.
Quick break, but to "Trial Tracking": Celebrity lawyer Mark Geragos, who defended celebs like Michael Jackson, Winona Ryder, is planning to star on a reality TV show called "Extreme Justice." He`ll represent plaintiffs in civil suits.
Meanwhile, Scott Peterson will be formally sentenced to the murder of his wife and son tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, call 1-888-GRACE-01, 472-2301, or cnn.com/nancygrace.
Let`s go straight back out for the rebuttal argument from the state.
Justin Whatcott, what say you, sir?
WHATCOTT: I say one thing that nobody`s talking about, and nobody has pointed out on your show, at least that I have seen, is these 38 green paint particles on blue fibers that match those on her T-shirt. That puts that robe on her.
Nancy, it`s common sense.
GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Explain in simple terms.
WHATCOTT: The inside of that robe contained 38 blue fibers with green paint on them. That morning, Sarah was wearing a blue shirt with green paint on it.
GRACE: OK, you know what? That`s very powerful evidence.
I want to thank all of my guests that were with me tonight, all fantastic guests, Bob Pangburn, who is Sarah Johnson`s defense attorney, gave one heck of a closing statement, Jim Thomas and Justin Whatcott, who have presented the case for the state, veteran trial lawyers, trial lawyer defense attorney Lisa Wayne joining us, psychologist and behavior expert, Catherine Burton, high-profile defense attorney Richard Herman and former prosecutor Nichole Williams here in our set in New York.
Thank you to everyone.
I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I want to remind you all I`ll see you on Court TV tomorrow with the Peterson sentencing. That`s 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern.
To all of my guests, thank you.
And to the rest of you, thank you for inviting us into your homes this evening. I`ll see you tomorrow night right here, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. And until then, good bye friend.
As we leave you, this is a shot of Jessie Lunsford`s bedroom where Jessie should be sleeping right now after three long weeks still missing, her bedside light still on.
MIKE GALANOS, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I`m Mike Galanos. And here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."
Italy`s premiere reportedly says his country will start pulling its troops out of Iraq this fall. Italian news reports say the withdraw could begin in September. Public opinion for involvement in Iraq among Italians has declined, especially after U.S. troops accidentally killed an Italian security agent and wounded a journalist. Italy has about 3,000 troops in the region.
The former CEO of WorldCom has been convicted on all nine counts of helping to mastermind an $11 billion accounting fraud. Bernard Ebbers faces sentencing in June and could get up to 85 years in prison. The scandal led to the largest bankruptcy in U.S. history.
And spring may seem far away in the Southwest. Snow fell throughout much of Texas and Oklahoma panhandles, and parts of New Mexico were covered by two to three feet of snow. Those stories and more when Erica Hill joins me for "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT." That`s coming up next.
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