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Nancy Grace
NANCY GRACE for March 17, 2005, CNNHN
Aired March 17, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, did Robert Blake get away with murder?
Not since the O.J. Simpson double murder trial has American been so stunned by a "not guilty" verdict. But where is the anger? Was the victim victimized again at trial? And tonight the latest in the Jessie Lunsford case. A man in custody. Tonight, does convicted sex offender John Couey hold the key to Jessie`s disappearance?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace and I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Jessie Lunsford, the nine-year-old little girl who went missing from her own bedroom three weeks ago today and tonight, a break in Jessie`s case. Convicted sex offender John Evander Couey skipped town immediately after Jessie went missing. Jessie`s family had no idea a registered sex offender lived right under their nose.
What does Couey know? Is he talking?
And hard to believe but Baretta, AKA, Robert Blake, is a free man tonight. Did the jury decide Bonny Lee Bakley deserved the death penalty and what part did Blake`s celebrity play in him beating the rap? Tonight, Bonny`s daughter, Holly Gawron and her lawyer, Eric Dubin, with us from New York.
Thanks to both of you for being with us. In my mind it`s a very dark day because Holly, no less than about, according to Eric, Eric told me this, no less than six people were approached and discussed murder with Blake. It`s incredible to me.
HOLLY GAWRON, BONNY LEE BAKLEY`S DAUGHTER: Yes. Good evening Nancy. I don`t understand why they didn`t convict him. I think the media has a big deal to do with it. Ever since the night she was murdered they have been spinning stories, they didn`t research, they didn`t verify the truth, they didn`t do their jobs, I don`t think, and I don`t think they really convinced a lot of people of Robert Blake`s lies and I`m very unhappy with the jury and the decision.
GRACE: Well, Holly, remember the night your mom was killed. Everyone, we are talking to Bonny Lee Bakley`s daughter. Remember the night your mom was murdered? Immediately, Robert Blake goes in the hospital claiming he is sick and can`t take a polygraph. Did you know right then there was something terribly wrong?
GAWRON: I knew before my mother was murdered something was terribly wrong. I`ve known a lot of stuff along the way. In his plot he lured my mother into a trap. It was like a sick, twisted game to him. Telling her he loved her. He wanted to make things work. To move in with him. And everything was going to be OK. Just a bunch of lies.
GRACE: You know, Holly, tell me about your mom`s relationship with Robert Blake.
GAWRON: Well, it -- It was shaky to say the least. They met, they got together, she fell in love. She was extremely infatuated but she wasn`t after his money. She had his child. She wanted to marry him. That was her plan but she really did love him. She liked him a lot and I didn`t feel the same way.
GRACE: Have you talked to him since your mom was murdered?
GAWRON: Absolutely not. Never.
GRACE: He never called you? Not one time after your mom was shot?
GAWRON: He`s never been interested in my mother, her family. He hates all of us. He thinks he`s better than everybody, so ...
GRACE: When you heard the "not guilty" verdict, Holly, what was your immediate response?
GAWRON: Well, I couldn`t do anything but cry, naturally. I lost my mother and I have to continue to suffer everyday.
GRACE: Holly, what do you think went wrong at trial? I`m stunned.
GAWRON: I have no idea. I don`t know how they came to that conclusion.
GRACE: Have the prosecutors contacted you to talk about it?
GAWRON: No, I`ve thanked them and I can`t thank them enough. I think Shellie did a wonderful job. She really did put her heart into this and she wanted to see him convicted as much as everybody on our side.
GRACE: Holly, what happened the night your mom was shot? Where were you?
GAWRON: I was at home sleeping and I didn`t find out until early the next morning my brother called me.
GRACE: What was your immediate thought when you found out your mom had been shot?
GAWRON: The first thing I said was he did it, I can`t believe he did it. I knew right then.
GRACE: Holly, why were you so convinced your mom was murdered by Blake?
GAWRON: Like I said, there were a lot of things leading up to -- lawyers and contracts and strange agreements. They were all just part of the setup and it was obvious before she even moved to California to be with him.
GRACE: What do you mean by strange agreements?
GAWRON: There were several contracts. One, the pre-nup where she gave up everything to marry him, to have her child back, this is after he abducted Rose. Also she wanted me to move with her because I guess she didn`t feel comfortable being alone with him. She wanted me to go and he had his attorneys write up a contract saying that I couldn`t accuse him of sexual abuse, I couldn`t drink or bring drugs on the property. He basically wanted me to sign something making me look like a terrible person.
And I refused. Absolutely not.
GRACE: Eric Dubin, what was your take on the verdict? I was stunned.
ERIC DUBIN, GAWRON`S ATTORNEY: Oh, Nancy. I don`t know. When I heard that they were hung on Hamilton, I knew it was going to be acquit and I told Holly to brace herself for it. But with no disrespect to this jury, they worked hard.
GRACE: Eric. Eric. Eric. Wait a minute. Did you see that juror last night on LARRY KING LIVE? Larry asked him a question and instead of answering the question, the guy held up a CD, Eric. A CD of his thoughts and recollections and he made the CD during the trial. He said so last night on LARRY KING LIVE, Eric. The guy the whole time had a monetary or pecuniary interest in the outcome of this trial. That`s wrong.
DUBIN: And the judge is looking into that right now. I have been informed that is being looked into but you know what, Nancy, this is a no- brainer for a non-celebrity. I really think it goes back to, in America, money and fame will buy you freedom. He had six people he confessed to at least. You had her dying the way he wanted her to die. You had a calling card confirming the solicitations. This should have been a no-brainer. And I`m dumbfounded.
GRACE: How many people ...
DUBIN: But Nancy, let me say this, I am going to take this guy down in July. This is not over. It may be a la O.J. and it may not be what we wanted but I`m going to prove him to be a murderer in the civil court and July 7 is going to be the day.
GRACE: We are taking a quick break. With me is Holly Gawron. This is Bonny Lee Bakley`s daughter. Along with her, her lawyer, Eric Dubin. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT BLAKE, ACQUITTED OF MURDER: I`m going to get a job. I`m broke. Right now I couldn`t buy scraps for a hummingbird. I was a rich man and I`m broke now. So I`m going to go to work. But before that I`m going to go out and do a little cowboying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant, Robert Blake, not guilty of the crime of first degree murder of Bonny Lee Bakley.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yesterday court watchers were stunned when the not guilty verdict came down in State v. Robert Blake. As you know, Blake on trial for the murder of his wife Bonny Lee Bakley, the mother of his little girl, Rosie. Now according to courtroom testimony, Blake had approached no less than six people to either solicit or discuss the murder of his wife. With us tonight, speaking out, is Bonny Lee Bakley`s daughter, Holly Gawron. Also with her, Eric Dubin.
Guys, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They couldn`t put the gun in his hand. Circumstantial evidence. There was no GSR, there was no blood on the clothing, there was nothing. Supposition more than evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: But Eric Dubin, there was gunshot residue, there was GSR.
DUBIN: Not only was there both of those, Nancy, there was uncontradicted testimony that the blood would not have left the car no matter who killed Bonny. So the fact that there is no blood means nothing. I really don`t know what went wrong with this juror, where they got lost. Maybe they got caught up in all the facts, lost in the trees and not seeing the forest. I don`t know, Nancy.
GRACE: Take a listen to what this juror had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAKE: I never lost hope. Sweetheart, if you live to be a million, you will never in your life meet anyone more blessed than me. I told Barbara Walters G-d has been on my side since I was in the womb and G-d has never left me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The circumstantial evidence was flimsy. It tended to be disjointed, it tended to be reliant upon unreliable people that could never connect all the links in the chain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. So we got to hear from Blake and the juror. Holly, when you hear sounds like that, saying that the evidence was flimsy, seeing Robert Blake jubilant after this "not guilty" verdict, what`s your response?
GAWRON: I think it`s ludicrous, actually. There is no way it could have been anybody else unless they were being informed by Robert Blake exactly when Bonny would be alone in that car and they can come out of nowhere, do their job and get out of there in five minutes. He absolutely did it. There is no doubt. Everything points at him and it`s aggravating.
GRACE: Holly, you know another issue that really disturbed me was the way your mom was treated during this. Bonny Lee Bakley was put on trial in front of this jury. She was made out to be one inch short of a hooker. Made out to be soliciting sex, just basically the scum of the earth. That was not true. That was not true. And I can`t imagine someone talking about my mom like that.
GAWRON: Horrible and it was the very first thing that I saw that morning, after I heard that she had died, I turned on the TV, first thing I saw was her being put into the ambulance and next thing I see is all the Bonny sex scandals and pornography and I was so angry that there`s nothing I can do about it. The stories are out there, that`s what people want to believe and I can`t stop them but I know he did this and I know he`s a coward for sneaking up on a defenseless, unexpecting woman.
GRACE: Eric Dubin, how many people exactly did Blake allegedly approach to kill his wife?
DUBIN: Well, I mean, you`ve got the four that we know of. You`ve got Caldwell, you`ve got him talking to Bonny about wanting to kill her. You`ve got Earl Caldwell`s friend, how much he hated her and wanted her gone, I mean you`re talking really over six people that he had expressed absolute hatred for his wife, Nancy, for his wife and how much he wanted her gone and the big thing that I think is missed by a lot of people is the factor that Rosie played in this that Blake wanted that baby to stay with his daughter Delinah and the only way that baby was going to stay with Delinah was with Bonny out of the picture.
GRACE: Holly. Our thoughts and our prayers go out to you. Eric. You are mounting a civil case, correct?
DUBIN: Yeah. I am going to depose Mr. Blake within the month. We`re set for July 7, and this is not over. I am going to prove Robert Blake murdered Bonny Lee Bakley.
GRACE: Eric Dubin, Bakley family attorney and Holly Gawron, Bonny Lee Bakley`s daughter. Thank you to both of you for being with us and our prayers and thoughts are with you, Holly.
GAWRON: Thank you.
DUBIN: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Now, as we go to break, to trial tracking. Scott Peterson on his way to San Quentin`s death row. San Quentin sits on the same bay where Peterson dumped the body of his murdered wife Laci and their baby boy, Conner. Peterson now has plenty of time to decide between the gas chamber or lethal injection. His victims Laci and Conner never had that luxury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t foresee him become a Ted Bundy or anything like that. I think he`ll go to his grave with his mouth tightly sealed, like he has all along.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scott Peterson went in and he immediately sat on the bunk looking at the wall of the cell. He then -- the officer said, so Scott, I guess you want to plan to lie down and take a nap now. Scott looked over at the officer from the seated position and said, man, I`m just too jazzed to even think about sleeping. And then again began to stare off into the emptiness of the cell as the metal door then slammed shut, locking him behind it and the staff then walked away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing a live shot of San Quentin. Of course, no two murder cases are alike and neither are murder victims. Bonny Lee Bakley and Laci Peterson both in California, both married, both new moms and both with husbands accused of their murder but still worlds apart in the way they were portrayed in front of a jury. Tonight, in New York, defense attorney Jason Oceans (ph). In Tampa, defense lawyer Joey Piscopo (ph). In New York, former prosecutor Lisa Pinto and psychotherapist Caryn Stark.
But first, let`s go to Vernell Crittendon, he`s in San Quentin and he was with Scott Peterson as he went to death row. Welcome sir. Thank you for being with us.
VERNELL CRITTENDON, SAN QUENTIN SPOKESMAN: Nancy. Good evening. It`s nice to be with you.
GRACE: Sir, what can you tell me about today? I just heard you say that Scott Peterson said he was jazzed. Now doesn`t that mean excited and happy.
CRITTENDON: I don`t believe that was the meaning at all. I think really what he was trying to express was that he was just full of adrenaline and the whole emotion of this move to death row was something that he wasn`t ready just to lay down and go to sleep.
GRACE: Sir. Can you tell me, is it true that he has already received fan mail from women that want to marry him?
CRITTENDON: Actually I was checking on it today to see the status of it. He`s been receiving mail, though, for weeks. Of course, we have been returning that mail because he has not been a prisoner of the State of California, but as of today he is and so I was checking in and found there was about three dozen phone calls we have received already from women that are expressing support from Scott Peterson. Two of them actually indicated to our staff that their purpose for calling was marriage.
GRACE: OK. You`re kidding.
CRITTENDON: I wish I was.
GRACE: He`s already gotten marriage proposals?
CRITTENDON: Many of the death row inmates get married after they get on death row to the women they marry.
GRACE: Incredible. It is incredible to me. Sir, tell me about a normal day for a death row inmate at San Quentin.
CRITTENDON: Well, I don`t know if we would call it normal but what the inmates will be experiencing is they start in the morning when they are served their breakfast and then they eat all of their meals in their cell alone, all inmates are alone in their cells and in their cells there are about 41 sq. ft of space. The inmates, particularly during this period that Scott Peterson is in, which will probably last about four to eight weeks, they will be involved with showering alone, they go out to exercise in a small enclosure that we built, and they will exercise in that area alone. They have no interaction with other inmates. The only direct contact that they will have with other human beings will be members of our staff.
Until we are able to identify a compatible group of death row inmates that he will now assimilate into that community and there will be 70 to 90 death row inmates. We divide them into six groups. We call them exercise yard groups, and therefore we will look to see which of these groups, looking at the makeup of Scott Peterson, that he will best assimilate into and once we put him into that -- introduce him to that group, he understands that these will be his friends for life.
GRACE: Sir, let me take it from the top. You say that they all eat their food alone in their cell, right?
CRITTENDON: Well, that is correct. For the rest of his life.
GRACE: Well we want to know what do they have for breakfast lunch and dinner? We all want to know about the menu.
CRITTENDON: Well, we actually have a dietitian here in the Department of Corrections and they eat the same meal that all the other inmates eat, so they have a balanced meal. The FDA says that a human being needs about 2900 calories of intake per day and we see that our inmates receive that through the three balanced meals. They eat two hot meals and one sack lunch. For example, today, for breakfast, he had pancakes and sausage, juice, coffee. Tomorrow -- for lunch ...
GRACE: That sounds pretty good to me, Vernell. I didn`t have anything for breakfast but a cup of coffee.
CRITTENDON: Unfortunately I was standing out at the east gate of the main prison with a group of media and nor did I eat any breakfast. But the inmate had his breakfast ...
GRACE: Pancakes and sausage. OK. Let`s move along to lunch.
CRITTENDON: Well, lunch he gets a sandwich, fruit, they had a little sack of cut carrots or celery and carrots, they`ll also have a powdered drink that will be in there so they can take that powdered drink, mix it in a cup of water and they will also have a Kool-Aid type drink to drink with their sack lunch.
And then for dinner this evening he had a green tossed salad, he had a couple slices of roast turkey, he would also have mashed potatoes, he also had some steamed carrots and he had a slice of cake for dessert.
GRACE: Next question. You said his cell was 41 feet square. Was that what you said?
CRITTENDON: Forty-one sq ft is the size of the cells at San Quentin.
GRACE: We are taking a quick break, everybody. We are talking about Scott Peterson behind bars tonight in San Quentin. As you know, we here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides. Tonight, take a look at Edward Heduraga (ph). In January 2004, he was stabbed to death in his home in Sacramento, California. What a smile! Age 17. If you have any information on Edward Heduraga, please call the Carol Sun Carrington (ph) Foundation, 1-888-813-8389, please, help us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, everybody, I`m Thomas Roberts. It`s time now to get you up to speed with your Headline Prime Newsbreak.
The U.S. Supreme Court has rejected without comment a last minute appeal by the parents of Terri Schiavo which would have stopped the removal of her feeding tube. Schiavo`s parents have argued their daughter`s religious freedom and due process rights were violated. Schiavo`s feeding tube is scheduled to be removed tomorrow. Florida lawmakers are trying to push through legislation that would prevent that move.
An all-star lineup appeared before a congressional committee today. The lawmakers are looking into steroid use in professional baseball. Former slugger Mark McGwire delivered an emotional statement to the committee saying he will not name players who abuse the performance enhancing drugs.
The FAA says that within a decade more than one billion people will be flying each year in the U.S. That`s almost double the current annual number of passengers, but the FAA says it will be ready for that dramatic growth in air traffic.
And that is the news for now. I`m Thomas Roberts. We take you back for more of NANCY GRACE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very calm, cool, nonchalant, polite, arrogant, thinks he`s smarter than everybody. And that`s how he acted yesterday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I am Nancy Grace and I want to thank you for being with us tonight. This week we have seen stunning verdicts all across the country. Of course, the Robert Blake "not guilty." We`ve seen the death penalty sentence imposed on Scott Peterson and joining us tonight in addition to our fantastic legal panel, with me is Vernell Crittendon from San Quentin. Sir, thank you again for being with us. So many people have so much interest in what is to become of Scott Peterson now.
We already have a clue. There has been a 120 page motion for new trial alleging everything from juror misconduct to legal grounds for reversal. But behind bars what will happen with Scott Peterson? Do you think, sir, he will be a target for attacks by other inmates?
CRITTENDON: Well, I think we have to look at that as a possibility in responsibly administrating over this population. I do not believe, though, that we will find that individuals on death row will want to do -- harbor ill will due to his commitment offense. I rather think it is due to the high notoriety that he has received that some individuals on death row may see this as an opportunity to make a reputation for themselves so they will got out and try to attack Scott Peterson.
GRACE: Yes. Well, the reality is, Vernell Crittendon, is that they`re all murderers on death row. That is the only way in this country you can get the death penalty and there are about 641 of them I believe and they`re there for a long time. They`re your guests in the big house for about 17 to 20 years before the execution goes down. Is that correct?
CRITTENDON: Yes, in my copious free time I actually went down our list about eight months ago and counted all of the inmates that have been there over 19 years and there were 106 I counted.
GRACE: Holy moly. Man. With us tonight in addition to Mr. Vernell Crittendon who is joining us from San Quentin. He is the public information officer. Got an all-star panel lined up. You know, Lisa Pinto, this guy, Scott Peterson, is going to have a choice of gas chamber or lethal injection. Now, on the other hand, Robert Blake walks free. And I think a lot of it has to do with the way the victim was portrayed. Specifically the way Bonny Lee Bakley was treated in court and the judge let it happen.
LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You make a good point, Nancy, and I think this was an emotional verdict, the Blake verdict. The jurors weren`t invested in Bonny Bakley the way they were in Laci Peterson. Everybody loved Laci`s smile. The jurors in that case cried over the photos. You didn`t see that in the Blake case. Rather, if anything, you had more evidence in the Blake case.
You had four people who said this man wanted to kill his wife and was determined to kill his wife. Lack of forensics didn`t bother the Peterson jury, but it did this jury. So I think jurors are emotional, they don`t set aside their personal prejudice and I think you had a foreperson who was hostile to the prosecution, who wasn`t that attentive during summation and you also look at the fact that you had another juror who had sat on murder trials before.
GRACE: Right.
PINTO: Maybe he wanted more, Nancy. I don`t know.
GRACE: Right. And Joe Piscopo (ph), what about that juror that I met on the airwaves last night on the LARRY KING SHOW. Larry asked him a question, Joe, you would have died, the guy held up a CD and said you can get this online at my Web site and blurted out his Web site before Larry could do anything about it.
He`s already got a CD of his thoughts on sale. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think the focus here is on the victims. I don`t think how the jury made the decision is on that. Let`s look at the defendants, the people on trial.
GRACE: Hey, I just asked you about the CD and the juror.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you know, so what, he has a CD.
GRACE: He has a pecuniary interest in the trial?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about Strawberry Shortcake? She wanted to hang Scott Peterson right on the courthouse steps.
GRACE: Yeah, well she`s not trying to sell a CD.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t know that.
GRACE: Well, she hasn`t come out with one, and she had a press conference. Jason Oceans (ph), that`s grounds for -- But you know, the state, when the state loses and gets an acquittal, Jason Oceans, they don`t have the same grounds of appeal that the defense has. Explain.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, first I just want to touch what you`re talking about, about the celebrity juror. I think Joe should really hit on that a little bit and you`re probably right in addressing it. People have agendas these days and they`re looking to get out there just no different than anyone else. They look at this and view this as their time on these cases and their moment and that`s why they`re ready to go ahead and perhaps profit from it but unfortunately we don`t have any other system to work with and we`re going to have to deal with the system that we have.
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, wait. There`s the commerce clause in the constitution that says you cannot impinge on someone`s right to make a buck. But the reality is you can`t sell cocaine, you can`t be a hooker, you can`t sell dope on a schoolyard and jurors should not be able to profit off a murder case. Quickly to Caryn Stark. I`m going to come right back to you. Karen, we need a shrink. Why was Bonny Lee Bakley so maligned? Look, the woman had a nudie site. So she gets the death penalty?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I think that`s what they did -- you`re right, Nancy, that`s part of what happened. That defamation of her character which was outrageous combined with his celebrity really led to him getting away with murder. That`s what it seems like to me.
GRACE: You know, back to you, Jason Oceans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s our job.
GRACE: I know -- that`s what I was about to ask you. I know it`s acceptable in court to malign the victim who can no longer speak for themselves, but is it ethical, is it moral, look, you`re not in court right now, you can give an honest answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to give you an honest answer. I`m going to tell you that your job is to defend your client as best as you can and to force the prosecution to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt and if a jury doesn`t find it that way, that means that the defense did their job as best as they could and if it just so happens that the character of the victim comes to be tried, well, that sometimes works in your defense.
PINTO: But Jason, I think in this case, Nancy, it wasn`t just the victim they didn`t like. They didn`t like the witnesses. They had a real problem with the drug use of the two lead prosecution witnesses. You have jurors, one of them who worked in an AA center, another who was sued by a drunk, another who said he was against drugs. I think this was pivotal too. They had a distaste for the entirety of the prosecution`s case.
GRACE: Joey Piscopo?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve got to look at the gunshot residue. He had five particles on his hand, but when they test fired the actual weapon almost 2,500 particles were left on the hand of the technician. So the jury foreman told you, there was no way to put the gun in his hand. It wasn`t Bonny Lee Bakley.
GRACE: Joe. Guess what? He also had the opportunity to wash his hands. He went in the bathroom. It`s a miracle there were even five particles left. But wait, before you start fighting with me about gunshot residue, before we got to break, I want to go back to Vernell Crittendon. Elizabeth, do I still have Vernell with me?
CRITTENDON: Yes, I`m here.
GRACE: Sir, question. Back to the other murder trial we`re talking about tonight, the Peterson case. What was Peterson`s demeanor when he came to San Quentin today?
CRITTENDON: Well, he tried to mask as if he was very confident but you could clearly see that he had this veil of uneasiness as you would see him smiling, attempting to greet or staff with a "good morning," a "how are you?" but he was very, very nervous as he came in. He was also very meek in the way that he would address us with his tone of voice when he was responding to our direct questions.
GRACE: Mr. Crittendon, if somebody behind bars at San Quentin wants to write a book, do they get paper and pencil and all of that?
CRITTENDON: They would have the paper and pencil but they cannot publish the book and profit from the crimes that they or other inmates have been involved in. So they can write a book, but the book cannot be about their crimes.
GRACE: Vernell, yeah, you know what? Shocker.
CRITTENDON: Yes?
GRACER: The Son of Sam laws that say someone cannot profit from their crimes has been reversed and there`s a new substitute in California that may help exactly what you`re saying and I hope that`s true. With me, Vernell Crittendon. He`s the public information officer with San Quentin State Prison. Sir. Thank you for your time.
CRITTENDON: I appreciate talking with you this evening, Nancy.
GRACE: Thanks, sir. Quick break, everybody. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our family is going to make it. We`re stronger because of this. And Scott got what he deserved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was taken into custody without incident and transported to the law enforcement center. Further investigation revealed that Couey had been in Augusta two days and was leaving today for Tennessee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: After three long weeks are we any closer to finding nine-year- old Jessie Lunsford. Tonight, from Homosassa, Florida, Jessie`s dad, Mark Lunsford. But first to CNN`s Susan Candiotti in Augusta Georgia, where Couey was picked up earlier today. Susan, welcome. What can you tell me, friend?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what just happened tonight is that he wrapped up almost four hours of questioning by investigators both from the Citrus County Sheriff`s Office and the FBI. Remember, John Couey is still at this time being called a person of interest in this case. He is being held here.
He is under arrest on some probation violations, essentially for leaving Florida without telling police. But they spent a lot of time with him, he did not have a lawyer, he answered all of their questions and police are saying he was cooperative throughout.
Here`s what happens next. He will make a court appearance tomorrow, presumably an initial court appearance on those probation violations and the issue of extradition might come up at that time. Will he fight it or won`t he? We don`t know. That would bring him back to Florida. And there is a good chance that questioning might resume as well in the morning, Nancy.
GRACE: Hey, Susan, let me clue you in on something. I`ve done some - - many extradition hearings. They take about five minutes. So even if this guy fights extradition, it will happen, Susan, whether an inmate agrees to the extradition or not. It just takes longer if they don`t go ahead and agree to it.
Hey, Susan, question. I know he`s a registered sex offender but do we know what his original crime was?
CANDIOTTI: Well, he has a slew of crimes, actually, a very long record. More than two dozen arrests over a three decade period. Now some of them are for minor crimes, burglary, larceny, that kind of thing, but also a convicted sex offender. Back in 1991.
GRACE: What`s he doing out?
CANDIOTTI: Well, that`s a question that we always ask in cases like this but Nancy, here is what I think is particularly interesting. This Couey was able to vanish more than once, at least two or three times from police. Remember, they tried to find him initially back in Florida as they were tracking down all convicted sex offenders. He managed to get away as you might recall after using a fake name to buy a bus ticket and head out of town to Savannah, Georgia.
Why Savannah? Well, my sources tell me that according to his relatives, whenever things would get hot or he wanted to get out, that`s where he would go. Well after spending time at a homeless shelter there, as you recall, police interviewed him there but had no legal way to hold him and so he left.
They put out the publicity, his name, and within 24 hours, don`t you know, listen to this, at a Salvation Army shelter here in Augusta, Georgia, it turns out he had been there two days but because of the publicity and putting his name out, a very alert worker this morning woke up and followed her normal required routine, which is to check for outstanding warrants with local authorities and also to check the Internet for any national news that might be of interest.
That`s when his name and photograph popped up. She recognized his photograph. She called police, but Nancy, he had already left the shelter. Nevertheless, police were able to find him a couple of blocks away and he came in without any resistance at all.
GRACE: Well, Susan Candiotti, you just cleared up so much so succinctly. Don`t move friend. Let me quickly move to Mark Lunsford. This is Jessica`s dad, who has visited with us many, many nights. Mark. Thank you for being with us. We`re still hoping, we`re still praying for you and for Jessie. Did you know this guy, this John Evander Couey guy?
MARK LUNSFORD, JESSICA LUNSFORD`S FATHER: No, ma`am, I didn`t. I`ve never seen him before. I didn`t recognize his picture or his name.
GRACE: So how close was he to your home? To your parents` home?
LUNSFORD: I`m standing here looking at his house. You can see our house -- from our front porch.
GRACE: Mark. What have you heard the cops took out of his home? They took some things from his home for forensic testing. What was it?
LUNSFORD: Well, what I was told was that it wasn`t anything that belonged to Jessie, it was just some items that they had some interest in.
GRACE: Do you know what they were?
LUNSFORD: No, honey, I sure don`t.
GRACE: Question. At any time, did you have any idea there was a registered sex offender living right under your nose?
LUNSFORD: I didn`t know that there was one right across the street from us. I did know there were some living in the area behind me a couple streets over and down the road. I think there`s about 17 in the Homosassa area.
GRACE: Let me go back to Susan Candiotti. She is joining us tonight from Augusta and laying out very plainly to us how Couey was captured. So he is still behind bars tonight. He was question for four hours. Susan, do we have any idea what was taken from his home? My ears perked up when I heard they took things for forensic testing, Susan.
CANDIOTTI: That`s right. No, my sources have not revealed what was taken from the home but my sources also tell me that other items for testing were taken from a car at that home. It is not John Couey`s car but a car there as well. And so waiting for those test results, of course, is very crucial here. Remember, he is not being called a suspect at this time and so for all we know he may be cleared. That`s what we have yet to find out.
GRACE: Yeah. You know what, Susan? That`s a really good point because remember, everybody thought Richard Allen Ricci was the perfect suspect for Elizabeth Smart? And he was. But he wasn`t the perpetrator. On the hand, they called Scott Peterson a person of interest, too. So we`ll see where it lands. Susan Candiotti, thank you friend.
CANDIOTTI: You`re welcome.
GRACE: And to Mark Lunsford, our prayers are with you, sir.
LUNSFORD: Thank you.
GRACE: Everybody, as we head to break, today in Atlanta, 1000s paid tribute to superior court Judge Roland Barnes. He was remembers after last Friday`s fatal courthouse shooting. Barnes was on the bench in court with his boots on when he was shot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today we gather to remember with gratitude the life and celebrate the life of Roland Barnes. Claudia, you and your family knew him as a loving husband, devoted father, beloved grandfather. We knew him and his colleagues here in robes knew him as a true and faithful servant to the people of Georgia.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are standing by to determine whether the death penalty will be announced by the Atlanta Fulton County district attorney. Deputy Sergeant Hoyt Teasley`s funeral tomorrow. Court reporter Julie Brandau`s yesterday. Today, mourners came to the funeral to pay their respect. Local news for some of you coming up next. But we`ll be right back. Remember, live coverage of Michael Jackson tomorrow, three to five on Court TV.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Nine-year-old Jessie Lunsford went missing three weeks ago tonight. Take a look at Jessie.
Still with us tonight, Mark Lunsford, Jessie`s father. He`s joining us from Homosassa, Florida. Mark, if you could speak out to Jessie tonight, what would you tell her?
LUNSFORD: Just keep praying baby. Daddy`s trying, and always remember, Daddy loves you this much and nobody will come between us.
GRACE: Mark, you haven`t given up, have you?
LUNSFORD: No. I haven`t and I won`t. Jessie`s coming home. I just don`t know when.
GRACE: Do you feel that in your heart? Have police led you to believe that?
LUNSFORD: It wasn`t the police that led me to believe that. It`s just the hope and the faith that I have.
GRACE: Well, sir we are standing by and hoping to help you any way we can.
LUNSFORD: I know you are.
GRACE: Thank you, Mr. Lunsford, for being with us.
LUNSFORD: Thank you. Thank you very much.
GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight. My friend and colleague Jason Oceans (ph) in New York, Joey Piscopo (ph), trial lawyer out of Florida, Lisa Pinto, former prosecutor, psychologist Caryn Stark weighing in. Vernon Crittendon joining us from San Quentin, and earlier, Holly Gawron and Eric Dubin. Of course, Susan Candiotti with CNN and Mark Lunsford. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight and inviting all of us in your home.
Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I`ll see you right here tomorrow night eight o`clock sharp Eastern. As we say good night, Elizabeth (ph), let`s go out with a shot of nine-year-old Jessie. Let`s see her bedroom. Like so many bedrooms, she`s got her dolls and her stuffed animals, but Jessie`s bedroom still empty.
Good night, friends.
MIKE GALANOS, CNNHN ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Mike Galanos and here`s your Headline Prime Newsbreak.
California`s San Quentin State Prison got its newest death row inmate today. Scott Peterson arrived after a transfer from San Mateo County Jail and in a few minutes we`ll bring you comments from a prison spokesman about some odd remarks Peterson made on his arrival. You want to stick around for that.
Grammy-winning hip hop artist Lil Kim has been found guilty of lying to a federal grand jury investigating a shooting near a Manhattan radio station that took place when here entourage crossed paths with a rival hip hop group. That was back in 2001. One person was injured. She faces up to 20 years behind bars.
And a man`s in custody for allegedly plotting foul play against the family of talk show host David Letterman. You`ll get details on what police say he was planning to do. We`ll have that and all the days news, Erica Hill will join me for PRIME NEWS TONIGHT. That`s coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
Aired March 17, 2005 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, did Robert Blake get away with murder?
Not since the O.J. Simpson double murder trial has American been so stunned by a "not guilty" verdict. But where is the anger? Was the victim victimized again at trial? And tonight the latest in the Jessie Lunsford case. A man in custody. Tonight, does convicted sex offender John Couey hold the key to Jessie`s disappearance?
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace and I want to thank you for being with us tonight. Jessie Lunsford, the nine-year-old little girl who went missing from her own bedroom three weeks ago today and tonight, a break in Jessie`s case. Convicted sex offender John Evander Couey skipped town immediately after Jessie went missing. Jessie`s family had no idea a registered sex offender lived right under their nose.
What does Couey know? Is he talking?
And hard to believe but Baretta, AKA, Robert Blake, is a free man tonight. Did the jury decide Bonny Lee Bakley deserved the death penalty and what part did Blake`s celebrity play in him beating the rap? Tonight, Bonny`s daughter, Holly Gawron and her lawyer, Eric Dubin, with us from New York.
Thanks to both of you for being with us. In my mind it`s a very dark day because Holly, no less than about, according to Eric, Eric told me this, no less than six people were approached and discussed murder with Blake. It`s incredible to me.
HOLLY GAWRON, BONNY LEE BAKLEY`S DAUGHTER: Yes. Good evening Nancy. I don`t understand why they didn`t convict him. I think the media has a big deal to do with it. Ever since the night she was murdered they have been spinning stories, they didn`t research, they didn`t verify the truth, they didn`t do their jobs, I don`t think, and I don`t think they really convinced a lot of people of Robert Blake`s lies and I`m very unhappy with the jury and the decision.
GRACE: Well, Holly, remember the night your mom was killed. Everyone, we are talking to Bonny Lee Bakley`s daughter. Remember the night your mom was murdered? Immediately, Robert Blake goes in the hospital claiming he is sick and can`t take a polygraph. Did you know right then there was something terribly wrong?
GAWRON: I knew before my mother was murdered something was terribly wrong. I`ve known a lot of stuff along the way. In his plot he lured my mother into a trap. It was like a sick, twisted game to him. Telling her he loved her. He wanted to make things work. To move in with him. And everything was going to be OK. Just a bunch of lies.
GRACE: You know, Holly, tell me about your mom`s relationship with Robert Blake.
GAWRON: Well, it -- It was shaky to say the least. They met, they got together, she fell in love. She was extremely infatuated but she wasn`t after his money. She had his child. She wanted to marry him. That was her plan but she really did love him. She liked him a lot and I didn`t feel the same way.
GRACE: Have you talked to him since your mom was murdered?
GAWRON: Absolutely not. Never.
GRACE: He never called you? Not one time after your mom was shot?
GAWRON: He`s never been interested in my mother, her family. He hates all of us. He thinks he`s better than everybody, so ...
GRACE: When you heard the "not guilty" verdict, Holly, what was your immediate response?
GAWRON: Well, I couldn`t do anything but cry, naturally. I lost my mother and I have to continue to suffer everyday.
GRACE: Holly, what do you think went wrong at trial? I`m stunned.
GAWRON: I have no idea. I don`t know how they came to that conclusion.
GRACE: Have the prosecutors contacted you to talk about it?
GAWRON: No, I`ve thanked them and I can`t thank them enough. I think Shellie did a wonderful job. She really did put her heart into this and she wanted to see him convicted as much as everybody on our side.
GRACE: Holly, what happened the night your mom was shot? Where were you?
GAWRON: I was at home sleeping and I didn`t find out until early the next morning my brother called me.
GRACE: What was your immediate thought when you found out your mom had been shot?
GAWRON: The first thing I said was he did it, I can`t believe he did it. I knew right then.
GRACE: Holly, why were you so convinced your mom was murdered by Blake?
GAWRON: Like I said, there were a lot of things leading up to -- lawyers and contracts and strange agreements. They were all just part of the setup and it was obvious before she even moved to California to be with him.
GRACE: What do you mean by strange agreements?
GAWRON: There were several contracts. One, the pre-nup where she gave up everything to marry him, to have her child back, this is after he abducted Rose. Also she wanted me to move with her because I guess she didn`t feel comfortable being alone with him. She wanted me to go and he had his attorneys write up a contract saying that I couldn`t accuse him of sexual abuse, I couldn`t drink or bring drugs on the property. He basically wanted me to sign something making me look like a terrible person.
And I refused. Absolutely not.
GRACE: Eric Dubin, what was your take on the verdict? I was stunned.
ERIC DUBIN, GAWRON`S ATTORNEY: Oh, Nancy. I don`t know. When I heard that they were hung on Hamilton, I knew it was going to be acquit and I told Holly to brace herself for it. But with no disrespect to this jury, they worked hard.
GRACE: Eric. Eric. Eric. Wait a minute. Did you see that juror last night on LARRY KING LIVE? Larry asked him a question and instead of answering the question, the guy held up a CD, Eric. A CD of his thoughts and recollections and he made the CD during the trial. He said so last night on LARRY KING LIVE, Eric. The guy the whole time had a monetary or pecuniary interest in the outcome of this trial. That`s wrong.
DUBIN: And the judge is looking into that right now. I have been informed that is being looked into but you know what, Nancy, this is a no- brainer for a non-celebrity. I really think it goes back to, in America, money and fame will buy you freedom. He had six people he confessed to at least. You had her dying the way he wanted her to die. You had a calling card confirming the solicitations. This should have been a no-brainer. And I`m dumbfounded.
GRACE: How many people ...
DUBIN: But Nancy, let me say this, I am going to take this guy down in July. This is not over. It may be a la O.J. and it may not be what we wanted but I`m going to prove him to be a murderer in the civil court and July 7 is going to be the day.
GRACE: We are taking a quick break. With me is Holly Gawron. This is Bonny Lee Bakley`s daughter. Along with her, her lawyer, Eric Dubin. Stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT BLAKE, ACQUITTED OF MURDER: I`m going to get a job. I`m broke. Right now I couldn`t buy scraps for a hummingbird. I was a rich man and I`m broke now. So I`m going to go to work. But before that I`m going to go out and do a little cowboying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We the jury in the above entitled action find the defendant, Robert Blake, not guilty of the crime of first degree murder of Bonny Lee Bakley.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Yesterday court watchers were stunned when the not guilty verdict came down in State v. Robert Blake. As you know, Blake on trial for the murder of his wife Bonny Lee Bakley, the mother of his little girl, Rosie. Now according to courtroom testimony, Blake had approached no less than six people to either solicit or discuss the murder of his wife. With us tonight, speaking out, is Bonny Lee Bakley`s daughter, Holly Gawron. Also with her, Eric Dubin.
Guys, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They couldn`t put the gun in his hand. Circumstantial evidence. There was no GSR, there was no blood on the clothing, there was nothing. Supposition more than evidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: But Eric Dubin, there was gunshot residue, there was GSR.
DUBIN: Not only was there both of those, Nancy, there was uncontradicted testimony that the blood would not have left the car no matter who killed Bonny. So the fact that there is no blood means nothing. I really don`t know what went wrong with this juror, where they got lost. Maybe they got caught up in all the facts, lost in the trees and not seeing the forest. I don`t know, Nancy.
GRACE: Take a listen to what this juror had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLAKE: I never lost hope. Sweetheart, if you live to be a million, you will never in your life meet anyone more blessed than me. I told Barbara Walters G-d has been on my side since I was in the womb and G-d has never left me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The circumstantial evidence was flimsy. It tended to be disjointed, it tended to be reliant upon unreliable people that could never connect all the links in the chain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: OK. So we got to hear from Blake and the juror. Holly, when you hear sounds like that, saying that the evidence was flimsy, seeing Robert Blake jubilant after this "not guilty" verdict, what`s your response?
GAWRON: I think it`s ludicrous, actually. There is no way it could have been anybody else unless they were being informed by Robert Blake exactly when Bonny would be alone in that car and they can come out of nowhere, do their job and get out of there in five minutes. He absolutely did it. There is no doubt. Everything points at him and it`s aggravating.
GRACE: Holly, you know another issue that really disturbed me was the way your mom was treated during this. Bonny Lee Bakley was put on trial in front of this jury. She was made out to be one inch short of a hooker. Made out to be soliciting sex, just basically the scum of the earth. That was not true. That was not true. And I can`t imagine someone talking about my mom like that.
GAWRON: Horrible and it was the very first thing that I saw that morning, after I heard that she had died, I turned on the TV, first thing I saw was her being put into the ambulance and next thing I see is all the Bonny sex scandals and pornography and I was so angry that there`s nothing I can do about it. The stories are out there, that`s what people want to believe and I can`t stop them but I know he did this and I know he`s a coward for sneaking up on a defenseless, unexpecting woman.
GRACE: Eric Dubin, how many people exactly did Blake allegedly approach to kill his wife?
DUBIN: Well, I mean, you`ve got the four that we know of. You`ve got Caldwell, you`ve got him talking to Bonny about wanting to kill her. You`ve got Earl Caldwell`s friend, how much he hated her and wanted her gone, I mean you`re talking really over six people that he had expressed absolute hatred for his wife, Nancy, for his wife and how much he wanted her gone and the big thing that I think is missed by a lot of people is the factor that Rosie played in this that Blake wanted that baby to stay with his daughter Delinah and the only way that baby was going to stay with Delinah was with Bonny out of the picture.
GRACE: Holly. Our thoughts and our prayers go out to you. Eric. You are mounting a civil case, correct?
DUBIN: Yeah. I am going to depose Mr. Blake within the month. We`re set for July 7, and this is not over. I am going to prove Robert Blake murdered Bonny Lee Bakley.
GRACE: Eric Dubin, Bakley family attorney and Holly Gawron, Bonny Lee Bakley`s daughter. Thank you to both of you for being with us and our prayers and thoughts are with you, Holly.
GAWRON: Thank you.
DUBIN: Thank you, Nancy.
GRACE: Now, as we go to break, to trial tracking. Scott Peterson on his way to San Quentin`s death row. San Quentin sits on the same bay where Peterson dumped the body of his murdered wife Laci and their baby boy, Conner. Peterson now has plenty of time to decide between the gas chamber or lethal injection. His victims Laci and Conner never had that luxury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t foresee him become a Ted Bundy or anything like that. I think he`ll go to his grave with his mouth tightly sealed, like he has all along.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scott Peterson went in and he immediately sat on the bunk looking at the wall of the cell. He then -- the officer said, so Scott, I guess you want to plan to lie down and take a nap now. Scott looked over at the officer from the seated position and said, man, I`m just too jazzed to even think about sleeping. And then again began to stare off into the emptiness of the cell as the metal door then slammed shut, locking him behind it and the staff then walked away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: You are seeing a live shot of San Quentin. Of course, no two murder cases are alike and neither are murder victims. Bonny Lee Bakley and Laci Peterson both in California, both married, both new moms and both with husbands accused of their murder but still worlds apart in the way they were portrayed in front of a jury. Tonight, in New York, defense attorney Jason Oceans (ph). In Tampa, defense lawyer Joey Piscopo (ph). In New York, former prosecutor Lisa Pinto and psychotherapist Caryn Stark.
But first, let`s go to Vernell Crittendon, he`s in San Quentin and he was with Scott Peterson as he went to death row. Welcome sir. Thank you for being with us.
VERNELL CRITTENDON, SAN QUENTIN SPOKESMAN: Nancy. Good evening. It`s nice to be with you.
GRACE: Sir, what can you tell me about today? I just heard you say that Scott Peterson said he was jazzed. Now doesn`t that mean excited and happy.
CRITTENDON: I don`t believe that was the meaning at all. I think really what he was trying to express was that he was just full of adrenaline and the whole emotion of this move to death row was something that he wasn`t ready just to lay down and go to sleep.
GRACE: Sir. Can you tell me, is it true that he has already received fan mail from women that want to marry him?
CRITTENDON: Actually I was checking on it today to see the status of it. He`s been receiving mail, though, for weeks. Of course, we have been returning that mail because he has not been a prisoner of the State of California, but as of today he is and so I was checking in and found there was about three dozen phone calls we have received already from women that are expressing support from Scott Peterson. Two of them actually indicated to our staff that their purpose for calling was marriage.
GRACE: OK. You`re kidding.
CRITTENDON: I wish I was.
GRACE: He`s already gotten marriage proposals?
CRITTENDON: Many of the death row inmates get married after they get on death row to the women they marry.
GRACE: Incredible. It is incredible to me. Sir, tell me about a normal day for a death row inmate at San Quentin.
CRITTENDON: Well, I don`t know if we would call it normal but what the inmates will be experiencing is they start in the morning when they are served their breakfast and then they eat all of their meals in their cell alone, all inmates are alone in their cells and in their cells there are about 41 sq. ft of space. The inmates, particularly during this period that Scott Peterson is in, which will probably last about four to eight weeks, they will be involved with showering alone, they go out to exercise in a small enclosure that we built, and they will exercise in that area alone. They have no interaction with other inmates. The only direct contact that they will have with other human beings will be members of our staff.
Until we are able to identify a compatible group of death row inmates that he will now assimilate into that community and there will be 70 to 90 death row inmates. We divide them into six groups. We call them exercise yard groups, and therefore we will look to see which of these groups, looking at the makeup of Scott Peterson, that he will best assimilate into and once we put him into that -- introduce him to that group, he understands that these will be his friends for life.
GRACE: Sir, let me take it from the top. You say that they all eat their food alone in their cell, right?
CRITTENDON: Well, that is correct. For the rest of his life.
GRACE: Well we want to know what do they have for breakfast lunch and dinner? We all want to know about the menu.
CRITTENDON: Well, we actually have a dietitian here in the Department of Corrections and they eat the same meal that all the other inmates eat, so they have a balanced meal. The FDA says that a human being needs about 2900 calories of intake per day and we see that our inmates receive that through the three balanced meals. They eat two hot meals and one sack lunch. For example, today, for breakfast, he had pancakes and sausage, juice, coffee. Tomorrow -- for lunch ...
GRACE: That sounds pretty good to me, Vernell. I didn`t have anything for breakfast but a cup of coffee.
CRITTENDON: Unfortunately I was standing out at the east gate of the main prison with a group of media and nor did I eat any breakfast. But the inmate had his breakfast ...
GRACE: Pancakes and sausage. OK. Let`s move along to lunch.
CRITTENDON: Well, lunch he gets a sandwich, fruit, they had a little sack of cut carrots or celery and carrots, they`ll also have a powdered drink that will be in there so they can take that powdered drink, mix it in a cup of water and they will also have a Kool-Aid type drink to drink with their sack lunch.
And then for dinner this evening he had a green tossed salad, he had a couple slices of roast turkey, he would also have mashed potatoes, he also had some steamed carrots and he had a slice of cake for dessert.
GRACE: Next question. You said his cell was 41 feet square. Was that what you said?
CRITTENDON: Forty-one sq ft is the size of the cells at San Quentin.
GRACE: We are taking a quick break, everybody. We are talking about Scott Peterson behind bars tonight in San Quentin. As you know, we here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides. Tonight, take a look at Edward Heduraga (ph). In January 2004, he was stabbed to death in his home in Sacramento, California. What a smile! Age 17. If you have any information on Edward Heduraga, please call the Carol Sun Carrington (ph) Foundation, 1-888-813-8389, please, help us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR: Hi, everybody, I`m Thomas Roberts. It`s time now to get you up to speed with your Headline Prime Newsbreak.
The U.S. Supreme Court has rejected without comment a last minute appeal by the parents of Terri Schiavo which would have stopped the removal of her feeding tube. Schiavo`s parents have argued their daughter`s religious freedom and due process rights were violated. Schiavo`s feeding tube is scheduled to be removed tomorrow. Florida lawmakers are trying to push through legislation that would prevent that move.
An all-star lineup appeared before a congressional committee today. The lawmakers are looking into steroid use in professional baseball. Former slugger Mark McGwire delivered an emotional statement to the committee saying he will not name players who abuse the performance enhancing drugs.
The FAA says that within a decade more than one billion people will be flying each year in the U.S. That`s almost double the current annual number of passengers, but the FAA says it will be ready for that dramatic growth in air traffic.
And that is the news for now. I`m Thomas Roberts. We take you back for more of NANCY GRACE.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very calm, cool, nonchalant, polite, arrogant, thinks he`s smarter than everybody. And that`s how he acted yesterday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I am Nancy Grace and I want to thank you for being with us tonight. This week we have seen stunning verdicts all across the country. Of course, the Robert Blake "not guilty." We`ve seen the death penalty sentence imposed on Scott Peterson and joining us tonight in addition to our fantastic legal panel, with me is Vernell Crittendon from San Quentin. Sir, thank you again for being with us. So many people have so much interest in what is to become of Scott Peterson now.
We already have a clue. There has been a 120 page motion for new trial alleging everything from juror misconduct to legal grounds for reversal. But behind bars what will happen with Scott Peterson? Do you think, sir, he will be a target for attacks by other inmates?
CRITTENDON: Well, I think we have to look at that as a possibility in responsibly administrating over this population. I do not believe, though, that we will find that individuals on death row will want to do -- harbor ill will due to his commitment offense. I rather think it is due to the high notoriety that he has received that some individuals on death row may see this as an opportunity to make a reputation for themselves so they will got out and try to attack Scott Peterson.
GRACE: Yes. Well, the reality is, Vernell Crittendon, is that they`re all murderers on death row. That is the only way in this country you can get the death penalty and there are about 641 of them I believe and they`re there for a long time. They`re your guests in the big house for about 17 to 20 years before the execution goes down. Is that correct?
CRITTENDON: Yes, in my copious free time I actually went down our list about eight months ago and counted all of the inmates that have been there over 19 years and there were 106 I counted.
GRACE: Holy moly. Man. With us tonight in addition to Mr. Vernell Crittendon who is joining us from San Quentin. He is the public information officer. Got an all-star panel lined up. You know, Lisa Pinto, this guy, Scott Peterson, is going to have a choice of gas chamber or lethal injection. Now, on the other hand, Robert Blake walks free. And I think a lot of it has to do with the way the victim was portrayed. Specifically the way Bonny Lee Bakley was treated in court and the judge let it happen.
LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You make a good point, Nancy, and I think this was an emotional verdict, the Blake verdict. The jurors weren`t invested in Bonny Bakley the way they were in Laci Peterson. Everybody loved Laci`s smile. The jurors in that case cried over the photos. You didn`t see that in the Blake case. Rather, if anything, you had more evidence in the Blake case.
You had four people who said this man wanted to kill his wife and was determined to kill his wife. Lack of forensics didn`t bother the Peterson jury, but it did this jury. So I think jurors are emotional, they don`t set aside their personal prejudice and I think you had a foreperson who was hostile to the prosecution, who wasn`t that attentive during summation and you also look at the fact that you had another juror who had sat on murder trials before.
GRACE: Right.
PINTO: Maybe he wanted more, Nancy. I don`t know.
GRACE: Right. And Joe Piscopo (ph), what about that juror that I met on the airwaves last night on the LARRY KING SHOW. Larry asked him a question, Joe, you would have died, the guy held up a CD and said you can get this online at my Web site and blurted out his Web site before Larry could do anything about it.
He`s already got a CD of his thoughts on sale. Hello.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t think the focus here is on the victims. I don`t think how the jury made the decision is on that. Let`s look at the defendants, the people on trial.
GRACE: Hey, I just asked you about the CD and the juror.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you know, so what, he has a CD.
GRACE: He has a pecuniary interest in the trial?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What about Strawberry Shortcake? She wanted to hang Scott Peterson right on the courthouse steps.
GRACE: Yeah, well she`s not trying to sell a CD.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t know that.
GRACE: Well, she hasn`t come out with one, and she had a press conference. Jason Oceans (ph), that`s grounds for -- But you know, the state, when the state loses and gets an acquittal, Jason Oceans, they don`t have the same grounds of appeal that the defense has. Explain.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, first I just want to touch what you`re talking about, about the celebrity juror. I think Joe should really hit on that a little bit and you`re probably right in addressing it. People have agendas these days and they`re looking to get out there just no different than anyone else. They look at this and view this as their time on these cases and their moment and that`s why they`re ready to go ahead and perhaps profit from it but unfortunately we don`t have any other system to work with and we`re going to have to deal with the system that we have.
GRACE: Hey, hey, hey, wait. There`s the commerce clause in the constitution that says you cannot impinge on someone`s right to make a buck. But the reality is you can`t sell cocaine, you can`t be a hooker, you can`t sell dope on a schoolyard and jurors should not be able to profit off a murder case. Quickly to Caryn Stark. I`m going to come right back to you. Karen, we need a shrink. Why was Bonny Lee Bakley so maligned? Look, the woman had a nudie site. So she gets the death penalty?
CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I think that`s what they did -- you`re right, Nancy, that`s part of what happened. That defamation of her character which was outrageous combined with his celebrity really led to him getting away with murder. That`s what it seems like to me.
GRACE: You know, back to you, Jason Oceans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s our job.
GRACE: I know -- that`s what I was about to ask you. I know it`s acceptable in court to malign the victim who can no longer speak for themselves, but is it ethical, is it moral, look, you`re not in court right now, you can give an honest answer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to give you an honest answer. I`m going to tell you that your job is to defend your client as best as you can and to force the prosecution to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt and if a jury doesn`t find it that way, that means that the defense did their job as best as they could and if it just so happens that the character of the victim comes to be tried, well, that sometimes works in your defense.
PINTO: But Jason, I think in this case, Nancy, it wasn`t just the victim they didn`t like. They didn`t like the witnesses. They had a real problem with the drug use of the two lead prosecution witnesses. You have jurors, one of them who worked in an AA center, another who was sued by a drunk, another who said he was against drugs. I think this was pivotal too. They had a distaste for the entirety of the prosecution`s case.
GRACE: Joey Piscopo?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`ve got to look at the gunshot residue. He had five particles on his hand, but when they test fired the actual weapon almost 2,500 particles were left on the hand of the technician. So the jury foreman told you, there was no way to put the gun in his hand. It wasn`t Bonny Lee Bakley.
GRACE: Joe. Guess what? He also had the opportunity to wash his hands. He went in the bathroom. It`s a miracle there were even five particles left. But wait, before you start fighting with me about gunshot residue, before we got to break, I want to go back to Vernell Crittendon. Elizabeth, do I still have Vernell with me?
CRITTENDON: Yes, I`m here.
GRACE: Sir, question. Back to the other murder trial we`re talking about tonight, the Peterson case. What was Peterson`s demeanor when he came to San Quentin today?
CRITTENDON: Well, he tried to mask as if he was very confident but you could clearly see that he had this veil of uneasiness as you would see him smiling, attempting to greet or staff with a "good morning," a "how are you?" but he was very, very nervous as he came in. He was also very meek in the way that he would address us with his tone of voice when he was responding to our direct questions.
GRACE: Mr. Crittendon, if somebody behind bars at San Quentin wants to write a book, do they get paper and pencil and all of that?
CRITTENDON: They would have the paper and pencil but they cannot publish the book and profit from the crimes that they or other inmates have been involved in. So they can write a book, but the book cannot be about their crimes.
GRACE: Vernell, yeah, you know what? Shocker.
CRITTENDON: Yes?
GRACER: The Son of Sam laws that say someone cannot profit from their crimes has been reversed and there`s a new substitute in California that may help exactly what you`re saying and I hope that`s true. With me, Vernell Crittendon. He`s the public information officer with San Quentin State Prison. Sir. Thank you for your time.
CRITTENDON: I appreciate talking with you this evening, Nancy.
GRACE: Thanks, sir. Quick break, everybody. Stay with us.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our family is going to make it. We`re stronger because of this. And Scott got what he deserved.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was taken into custody without incident and transported to the law enforcement center. Further investigation revealed that Couey had been in Augusta two days and was leaving today for Tennessee.
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GRACE: After three long weeks are we any closer to finding nine-year- old Jessie Lunsford. Tonight, from Homosassa, Florida, Jessie`s dad, Mark Lunsford. But first to CNN`s Susan Candiotti in Augusta Georgia, where Couey was picked up earlier today. Susan, welcome. What can you tell me, friend?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, what just happened tonight is that he wrapped up almost four hours of questioning by investigators both from the Citrus County Sheriff`s Office and the FBI. Remember, John Couey is still at this time being called a person of interest in this case. He is being held here.
He is under arrest on some probation violations, essentially for leaving Florida without telling police. But they spent a lot of time with him, he did not have a lawyer, he answered all of their questions and police are saying he was cooperative throughout.
Here`s what happens next. He will make a court appearance tomorrow, presumably an initial court appearance on those probation violations and the issue of extradition might come up at that time. Will he fight it or won`t he? We don`t know. That would bring him back to Florida. And there is a good chance that questioning might resume as well in the morning, Nancy.
GRACE: Hey, Susan, let me clue you in on something. I`ve done some - - many extradition hearings. They take about five minutes. So even if this guy fights extradition, it will happen, Susan, whether an inmate agrees to the extradition or not. It just takes longer if they don`t go ahead and agree to it.
Hey, Susan, question. I know he`s a registered sex offender but do we know what his original crime was?
CANDIOTTI: Well, he has a slew of crimes, actually, a very long record. More than two dozen arrests over a three decade period. Now some of them are for minor crimes, burglary, larceny, that kind of thing, but also a convicted sex offender. Back in 1991.
GRACE: What`s he doing out?
CANDIOTTI: Well, that`s a question that we always ask in cases like this but Nancy, here is what I think is particularly interesting. This Couey was able to vanish more than once, at least two or three times from police. Remember, they tried to find him initially back in Florida as they were tracking down all convicted sex offenders. He managed to get away as you might recall after using a fake name to buy a bus ticket and head out of town to Savannah, Georgia.
Why Savannah? Well, my sources tell me that according to his relatives, whenever things would get hot or he wanted to get out, that`s where he would go. Well after spending time at a homeless shelter there, as you recall, police interviewed him there but had no legal way to hold him and so he left.
They put out the publicity, his name, and within 24 hours, don`t you know, listen to this, at a Salvation Army shelter here in Augusta, Georgia, it turns out he had been there two days but because of the publicity and putting his name out, a very alert worker this morning woke up and followed her normal required routine, which is to check for outstanding warrants with local authorities and also to check the Internet for any national news that might be of interest.
That`s when his name and photograph popped up. She recognized his photograph. She called police, but Nancy, he had already left the shelter. Nevertheless, police were able to find him a couple of blocks away and he came in without any resistance at all.
GRACE: Well, Susan Candiotti, you just cleared up so much so succinctly. Don`t move friend. Let me quickly move to Mark Lunsford. This is Jessica`s dad, who has visited with us many, many nights. Mark. Thank you for being with us. We`re still hoping, we`re still praying for you and for Jessie. Did you know this guy, this John Evander Couey guy?
MARK LUNSFORD, JESSICA LUNSFORD`S FATHER: No, ma`am, I didn`t. I`ve never seen him before. I didn`t recognize his picture or his name.
GRACE: So how close was he to your home? To your parents` home?
LUNSFORD: I`m standing here looking at his house. You can see our house -- from our front porch.
GRACE: Mark. What have you heard the cops took out of his home? They took some things from his home for forensic testing. What was it?
LUNSFORD: Well, what I was told was that it wasn`t anything that belonged to Jessie, it was just some items that they had some interest in.
GRACE: Do you know what they were?
LUNSFORD: No, honey, I sure don`t.
GRACE: Question. At any time, did you have any idea there was a registered sex offender living right under your nose?
LUNSFORD: I didn`t know that there was one right across the street from us. I did know there were some living in the area behind me a couple streets over and down the road. I think there`s about 17 in the Homosassa area.
GRACE: Let me go back to Susan Candiotti. She is joining us tonight from Augusta and laying out very plainly to us how Couey was captured. So he is still behind bars tonight. He was question for four hours. Susan, do we have any idea what was taken from his home? My ears perked up when I heard they took things for forensic testing, Susan.
CANDIOTTI: That`s right. No, my sources have not revealed what was taken from the home but my sources also tell me that other items for testing were taken from a car at that home. It is not John Couey`s car but a car there as well. And so waiting for those test results, of course, is very crucial here. Remember, he is not being called a suspect at this time and so for all we know he may be cleared. That`s what we have yet to find out.
GRACE: Yeah. You know what, Susan? That`s a really good point because remember, everybody thought Richard Allen Ricci was the perfect suspect for Elizabeth Smart? And he was. But he wasn`t the perpetrator. On the hand, they called Scott Peterson a person of interest, too. So we`ll see where it lands. Susan Candiotti, thank you friend.
CANDIOTTI: You`re welcome.
GRACE: And to Mark Lunsford, our prayers are with you, sir.
LUNSFORD: Thank you.
GRACE: Everybody, as we head to break, today in Atlanta, 1000s paid tribute to superior court Judge Roland Barnes. He was remembers after last Friday`s fatal courthouse shooting. Barnes was on the bench in court with his boots on when he was shot.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today we gather to remember with gratitude the life and celebrate the life of Roland Barnes. Claudia, you and your family knew him as a loving husband, devoted father, beloved grandfather. We knew him and his colleagues here in robes knew him as a true and faithful servant to the people of Georgia.
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GRACE: We are standing by to determine whether the death penalty will be announced by the Atlanta Fulton County district attorney. Deputy Sergeant Hoyt Teasley`s funeral tomorrow. Court reporter Julie Brandau`s yesterday. Today, mourners came to the funeral to pay their respect. Local news for some of you coming up next. But we`ll be right back. Remember, live coverage of Michael Jackson tomorrow, three to five on Court TV.
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GRACE: Nine-year-old Jessie Lunsford went missing three weeks ago tonight. Take a look at Jessie.
Still with us tonight, Mark Lunsford, Jessie`s father. He`s joining us from Homosassa, Florida. Mark, if you could speak out to Jessie tonight, what would you tell her?
LUNSFORD: Just keep praying baby. Daddy`s trying, and always remember, Daddy loves you this much and nobody will come between us.
GRACE: Mark, you haven`t given up, have you?
LUNSFORD: No. I haven`t and I won`t. Jessie`s coming home. I just don`t know when.
GRACE: Do you feel that in your heart? Have police led you to believe that?
LUNSFORD: It wasn`t the police that led me to believe that. It`s just the hope and the faith that I have.
GRACE: Well, sir we are standing by and hoping to help you any way we can.
LUNSFORD: I know you are.
GRACE: Thank you, Mr. Lunsford, for being with us.
LUNSFORD: Thank you. Thank you very much.
GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight. My friend and colleague Jason Oceans (ph) in New York, Joey Piscopo (ph), trial lawyer out of Florida, Lisa Pinto, former prosecutor, psychologist Caryn Stark weighing in. Vernon Crittendon joining us from San Quentin, and earlier, Holly Gawron and Eric Dubin. Of course, Susan Candiotti with CNN and Mark Lunsford. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight and inviting all of us in your home.
Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I`ll see you right here tomorrow night eight o`clock sharp Eastern. As we say good night, Elizabeth (ph), let`s go out with a shot of nine-year-old Jessie. Let`s see her bedroom. Like so many bedrooms, she`s got her dolls and her stuffed animals, but Jessie`s bedroom still empty.
Good night, friends.
MIKE GALANOS, CNNHN ANCHOR: Hello, I`m Mike Galanos and here`s your Headline Prime Newsbreak.
California`s San Quentin State Prison got its newest death row inmate today. Scott Peterson arrived after a transfer from San Mateo County Jail and in a few minutes we`ll bring you comments from a prison spokesman about some odd remarks Peterson made on his arrival. You want to stick around for that.
Grammy-winning hip hop artist Lil Kim has been found guilty of lying to a federal grand jury investigating a shooting near a Manhattan radio station that took place when here entourage crossed paths with a rival hip hop group. That was back in 2001. One person was injured. She faces up to 20 years behind bars.
And a man`s in custody for allegedly plotting foul play against the family of talk show host David Letterman. You`ll get details on what police say he was planning to do. We`ll have that and all the days news, Erica Hill will join me for PRIME NEWS TONIGHT. That`s coming up next.
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