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American Morning

Schiavo Appeal Denied; Ten Die in School Shooting; Gas Pump Pinch

Aired March 22, 2005 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING, with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everybody. Nine o'clock here in New York. Good to have you along with us today.

Good morning to you again.

A busy morning, too. Much more on the ruling today on the Terri Schiavo matter.

A federal judge refusing to get involved in a decision to reinsert the feeding tube. We'll talk to a nurse today who helped care for Schiavo. She says the truth about her condition is not being told. We'll talk to her this hour.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Also this morning, what's happening with Michael Jackson? Did you see him yesterday appearing dazed and sort of feeble at the start of trial on a Monday? We're going to take a look at how that played out in court.

HEMMER: A half day today. We'll see what happens out there.

Here's Jack again.

What's on your mind?

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: What represents the greatest threat to our way of life in this country? Is it terrorism or is it the rapidly deteriorating economy? AM@CNN.com, your thoughts. We'll read some mail in a bit.

O'BRIEN: All right, Jack. Thanks.

Let's get right to those developments out of Florida in the Terri Schiavo case. A federal judge now refusing to order Schiavo's feeding tube be reinserted.

CNN's Elizabeth Cohen is at the courthouse in Tampa this morning.

Elizabeth, good morning to you. Explain to us the crux of the judge's decision here.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad. Well, here's the judge's decision right here, Robert and Mary Schindler, Terri Schiavo's parents, versus Michael Schiavo, her husband. The crux of the decision is the judge, the federal judge, James Whittemore, said, you know what? You just didn't show me that there is a likelihood of success when you go to get a permanent injunction to have that feeding tube put back in.

In other words, what they were asking for was a temporary restraining order. And he said, when you go to make this permanent, you haven't shown that there's a likelihood of success.

I was at that hearing yesterday and it was interesting because the judge several times said to the lawyer for the parents, look, show me some -- show me that you're going to have a likelihood of success. Show me some case law where other people have been successful, show me some precedent.

And he said, "I'm not asking this facetiously. I have looked and I can't find it. Can you show it to me?" And basically the lawyer for the parents said, no, that he couldn't show that kind of precedent. And that's the reason for the ruling today -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right. Elizabeth Cohen for us at the courthouse this morning. Elizabeth, thanks.

Back in the fall of 2003, Florida Governor Jeb Bush commissioned a report detailing the Terri Schiavo case. Jay Wolfson is an attorney. He's also professor of public health at the University of South Florida. He prepared that report. He joins us from Tampa this morning.

Nice to see you. Thanks for being with us.

JAY WOLFSON, ATTORNEY: My pleasure.

O'BRIEN: Your job, I know, was to represent Terri Schiavo's interest in all of this. What's your reaction to this federal judge saying that the feeding tube will not be reinserted at this point?

WOLFSON: Well, part of my reaction has to do with the way the law was upheld. You know, we followed Florida law in this case, followed the rules of civil procedure, the rules of evidence and the statutory provisions regarding guardianship in this state that have been carefully crafted over the past 15 years of bipartisan, political and religious discussion.

This ruling by the judge is a legal decision. It's the application of the law. It's a determination as to whether or not there's going to be a probability of success, which is what the judge has to determine if he's going to issue an injunction. And he determined that there wasn't.

You know, what we've talked about throughout the last 18 months that I've tried to participate in this case is that good science and good medicine and good law need, to the extent possible, to be applied to the extent that we know them. O'BRIEN: Doctors have said that Terri Schiavo has only reflex reactions, that she has no cerebral cortex shown by an MRI, they say. Her parents say she smiles, she has responses when they give her news and tell her things. What's the truth? You've sat with her for hours at a time trying to determine her actual state.

WOLFSON: Well, the fact is that the competent medical evidence that was presented in court, again, using the rules of evidence and rules of civil procedure in Florida, established that -- the medical evidence indicates that she's in persistent vegetative state. And the competent legal evidence that was presented indicates using the standards of proof in Florida for case like this, which is clear and convincing, that the wishes of Terri, as communicated to her husband and her brother-in-law and sister-in-law, are attempted to being fulfilled through his intentions.

We may not like those findings. I have a 97-year-old mother who is not doing well. And people say, "Do you want Terri to die, is that what you want?" No, I don't think anybody wants Terri to die.

The question is, how do we take the best knowledge that we have, the best science, the best medicine and the best objective interpretation of the law and apply it to protect our interests? And my understanding of what I've studied up until now is that that was done as best as we could given Florida law.

O'BRIEN: You wrote this report back in 2003, and you said that the family, the blood relatives of Terri Schiavo, voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Theresa alive at any and all costs. Describe some of that discussion that you were part of. It's actually somewhat gruesome, because the attorney for Michael Schiavo took them through different elements of what might happen to Terri Schiavo.

WOLFSON: That was done in a deposition by Mr. Felos, who is an incredibly skilled attorney. And what he did during that -- that examination of the Schindlers is ask them, if they were to care for Terri at home and she developed acute diabetes and required that her left arm be amputated, would they do that? And then he step by step took them through this awful, gruesome process of basically "Boxing Helena," of cutting off her arms and legs.

And then he said, "If she were to require cardiovascular surgery what would you do?" And they said, "Well, we'd do it." And at that point Michael determined that he was not going to allow, as he says, the woman he loved, to be subjected to that kind of care and treatment.

I spoke with the Schindlers about that. And, you know, when you're in court, and when you're under examination by a very skilled attorney, sometimes they're very successful, as you journalists are, in directing responses in a way that's going to elicit something that you want them to say rather than what people really believe.

And the Schindlers said that's not what they meant to say. What they meant to say is that they love their daughter very much and they would do anything they could to keep her alive. And I'm confident and I truly believe that's what they want, that's what they believe.

O'BRIEN: As you well know, there are some people -- for example, a nurse we'll be speaking with later this morning -- who says, who claims that to her Michael Schiavo seemed very interesting in knowing when his wife would die, who also aggressively withheld therapies from his wife, from Terri Schiavo. Did you witness any of that?

WOLFSON: I didn't witness Michael interacting with Terri except once or twice. But going by the medical record -- and Karla (ph) was at the facility, she saw far more than I did. But I spoke with many of the incredibly dedicated hospice staff, the nurses, the police officers who have been spending months outside her room.

The medical record is fairly detailed. For the first several years of care, as many of you have heard, Michael was so demanding of the medical staff, of the staff of the facility that there was an effort to initiate injunctions against him to stop him from coming in because he was demanding so much. In the 15 years that Terri was in the facility, she never once suffered from a bed sore, which Ken Conner (ph), the governor's attorney, will tell you, as a plaintiff's attorney in those cases, is pretty extraordinary.

There's no evidence in the record to indicate that he withheld health care. After a certain point, after three or four years when the judgment in the malpractice case came through, Michael decided that he was going to abide by the advice that he had gotten medically from almost day one after Terri's accident, and agree that she no longer could return to the state that she had been to previously.

O'BRIEN: So then as an independent observer, is it your position that removing the feeding tube is what Terri Schiavo would have wanted?

WOLFSON: It's my assessment that the competent legal evidence that was presented in Florida courts using Florida rules of evidence, Florida rules of civil procedure, and the guardianship laws that the state has carefully crafted were followed. And that that evidence served as a substantial basis, clear and convincing, to reflect Michael Schiavo's intentions as he believed them to be interpreted from Terri.

O'BRIEN: I think that's a long and convoluted way of saying yes? Is that what you're saying, kind of?

WOLFSON: It's saying that if you don't believe Michael Schiavo, you're never going to believe Michael Schiavo. If you believe that he's fabricating this, then no matter what we say, then you're never going to believe it.

But as the case of my son, any 19-year-old son in Tallahassee, Allen (ph), called me on Friday and he said, "Dad, if I told you that I never wanted to be kept in a vegetative state alive in that situation and I did not have a living will, what would you do?" And I said, "Allen (ph), I would do everything I could to zealously advocate for your interests as much as it would pain me to disconnect you."

He said, "What if I told you that I wanted to be kept alive at all costs?" I said, "Then I would also do that."

If you believe -- and I think that the competent medical evidence based on the standards in Florida support the contention that there were two instances during which Terri Schiavo said to her husband, her brother-in-law and her sister-in-law in context at a funeral, two funerals of family members who had been on life support, that she would never want to be kept alive like that. And if that evidence is deemed competent, clear and convincing, then Michael is doing what he believes Terri wanted. And that's part of his job as her husband and as her guardian.

O'BRIEN: Jay Wolfson, obviously this case continues on. Thank you for joining us this morning and for some clarification as well.

WOLFSON: My pleasure.

O'BRIEN: Let's get right to Carol Costello. She's got a look at the headlines this morning.

Hey, Carol. Good morning again.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Good morning to all of you.

John Couey, a convicted sex offender, will remain behind bars until his trial for the kidnapping and murder of 9-year-old Jessica Lunsford. John Couey appeared in Florida court less than two hours ago. The judge called his suspected crimes "beyond words."

Jessica Lunsford's parents are calling for the death penalty. Another hearing is set for next month.

In southern California, testimony resumes this morning in a similar case. Five-year-old Samantha Runnion's body was found nearly three years ago about 50 miles away from her home. Alejandro Avila is charged with kidnapping, sexually assaulting and killing her in July of 2002. The suspect apparently approached the little girl, who was playing outside with a friend. And that story had to do with a lost puppy.

President Bush once again pushing reform in Social Security. In just over two hours, the president will speak at a town hall meeting in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He'll then return to his Crawford, Texas, ranch. President Bush is set to meet tomorrow with the Mexican president, Vicente Fox, and the Canadian prime minister, Paul Martin.

And a massive recall on Graco toddler beds. The Consumer Products Safety Commission says children could get caught in the slats, possibly breaking arms and legs. On top of the recall, the commission is fining Graco $4 million. It is the largest civil penalty ever issued against a manufacturer from the Product Safety Commission.

Back to you.

HEMMER: All right. Carol, thanks for that. There is another story developing that broke late last night on a reservation in northern Minnesota near the Canadian border, where officials there do not know why a young gunman stormed a school, killed 10 people, including himself.

Keith Oppenheim is at the detention center in Red Bank, Minnesota.

Keith, good morning. What happened?

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Bill. We're trying to figure it out. In fact, we're at a detention center at the Red Lake Indian Reservation, awaiting to hear more details on the investigation.

What the FBI has told us so far is that yesterday a teenage gunman goes to the home of his grandparents on this reservation, he shoots and he kills them. And then he goes to Red Lake Senior High School, where he kills eight people.

Among those are a teacher, a security guard, five students. And he also injures 13 others. After an exchange of gunfire with police, we're told, then the gunman apparently kills himself.

This young gunman has been identified in local media reports as Jeffrey Weise. The FBI believes that he acted alone.

A firefighter for the reservation reported that the gunman's grandfather worked for the reservation's police department, and he believes that he used his grandfather's police-issued weapons in the killings. This morning, a tribal -- the tribal chief on the reservation spoke about the security at the high school and also about his concerns about what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAIRMAN FLOYD JOURDAIN, RED LAKE OJIBWA NATION: We're all -- you know, the huge question why. You know, just like in Columbine.

We have a security system that was implemented, in fact, before Columbine. And apparently the security there, the school had a plan, there was security in place, and they did everything they could to stop the tragedy yesterday. And it was beyond their control, unfortunately, and lives were lost.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OPPENHEIM: There are about 5,000 members of the Chippewa Tribe, Bill, who live here at the Red Lake Indian Reservation. And as you hearing, I think in the tone from the tribal chief, they are in a state of shock today.

Back to you.

HEMMER: Shock and stunned. You're exactly right about that, Keith. Were there any warning signs from this student in class or even outside of school?

OPPENHEIM: Well, nothing that I have confirmed. There are a lot of reports going on that he had written certain things on Web sites, that he had said things to students. We're hearing some students say that he had talked about doing this before.

But again, that's speculation still at this point. And even if he said all those things or wrote some of those things, in stories like this there's often a disconnect from people who heard such things from a student and their expectation that he would actually act on those instincts. So, you know, that's why I think people here are ultimately so shocked about what took place yesterday.

HEMMER: What a tragedy, too. From Red Lake, Minnesota, Keith Oppenheim. Thanks -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Dangerous weather popping around the South. Chad Myers at the CNN Center with the latest on that for us.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: In a moment here, Terri Schiavo's condition has been argued by the doctors and the courts and by Congress. We'll hear from a nurse in a moment who said she heard Terri Schiavo speak. She also says she heard some shocking things said by Michael Schiavo. She'll be our guest this hour.

O'BRIEN: Plus, high gas prices don't just mean more expensive fill-ups. There's a wide range of pain ahead. We'll explain.

HEMMER: Also, when there's no more Plaza Hotel, what happens to Eloise? The end of an era, but will her story live on? That's ahead this hour, too, on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Drivers across the country feeling the pinch at the pump. And it may be only the beginning. Gas prices now at a record high. And as CNN's Allan Chernoff tells us this morning, you might also be feeling the pain elsewhere.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SR. FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pump and weep, $30 and counting to fill her up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This gas is a killer, especially in New York. It's a killer.

CHERNOFF: Never mind that adjusted for inflation gas remains cheaper than it was in the early '80s. It still squeezes the wallet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's too high. And then I have a truck, so it's like $50 to fill up.

CHERNOFF: The energy squeeze gets tighter at home. Remember last month's heating bill? Yes, even the price of a slice. Carmine Malanga claims he had to cover the cost of heating the ovens and delivery.

CARMINE MALANGA, SAL & CARMINE'S: Everything goes up. And, you know, you have to add it to the bill.

CHERNOFF: Some airlines had pushed through two fare increases in recent weeks to help cover soaring jet fuel expenses. But yesterday Continental retreated from an additional $5 a ticket hike. FedEx also has slapped on an 8.5 percent fuel surcharge for air deliveries. Truckers also are passing along their extra costs for filling up.

But the cost of transportation, economists and retailers say, accounts for only about a penny of every dollar in price on the store shelf.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The delivery charge is just a small, small bit of the total cost of whatever is on that truck. And it's just -- it's splitting hairs. It just doesn't make sense to us. And it seems to me a little bit petty to pass on a cost like that.

CHERNOFF: That helps explain why consumer prices for the past 12 months are up only 3 percent, even after the jump in gas and other fuel prices. The cost of gas may go higher, but economists argue that's because the energy markets are simply out of whack and the increases won't stick. Because while refining capacity is limited, oil supplies are actually plentiful, which means the pain at the pump may not be permanent.

Allan Chernoff, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: And for the record, according to the latest Lundberg Survey, the average price for a regular grade gallon of gasoline in the country now is $2.10. It may go higher.

Stay tuned, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: That's a good guess.

Well, Terri Schiavo's husband says she would not want to be kept alive in the condition she is in. Ahead this morning, we're going to talk to one of her former nurses. She says Michael Schiavo is not looking out for his wife's best interests.

That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Welcome back. And back to Jack now and the "Question of the Day."

CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.

The federal budget deficit headed toward an all-time high this year. Likewise, the trade deficit, it's even bigger than the budget deficit. Then there are oil prices and rising interest rates and the falling dollar and Social Security and Medicare problems. The list just goes on and on.

In a new poll taken by the National Association for Business Economics, government spending and fiscal deficits are the biggest threats to economic growth. Now, this same organization seven months ago said the biggest threats to the economy, terrorism.

The question this morning is which do you think is the bigger threat to our way of life?

Paul in Tennessee writes: "Jack, stop the doom and gloom. The economy's growing, the deficits will be reduced when the economy grows. If we don't defeat terrorism, an economy won't matter. This question has an obvious answer, but you yourself are inciting people to give the wrong answer."

Dawn in Virginia writes: "You know who we need right now? Ross Perot. As crazy as people thought he was, he focused the national debate on the economy 13 years ago. We need to hear about his crazy aunt again."

Joan in Utah writes: "Both. By spending more money, money we don't have to fight terrorism, the terrorists are winning. It has been the downfall of many empires."

And Doug in San Diego writes: "What's the greater threat, terrorism or the economy? Neither. It's how easily America is sold on the next thing to fear."

HEMMER: Ooh.

O'BRIEN: Nice to see everybody agrees. That guy says neither, the other guy says both.

O'BRIEN: Well, if they all agree, they'd be -- we'd have no market here. So you got the buyers, you got the sellers. You got the -- you know.

O'BRIEN: I hear you, Jack.

CAFFERTY: I mean, I'd have to go out and get an honest job.

O'BRIEN: Wouldn't want that.

CAFFERTY: I absolutely want nothing to do with that.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.

A freak in nature -- a real freak of nature the topic of one of the most popular stories on our Web site at CNN.com. "National Geographic" experts have verified that a hog found in Georgia was eight feet long and weighed close to 800 pounds.

Known as Hogzilla, the hog was killed on a hunting preserve last summer. One of the super swine's tusks measured about 18 inches. Hogzilla is the topic of a documentary tomorrow on the National Geographic Channel.

The freaks -- the freaks tend to be a popular item for our folks here at CNN.com.

O'BRIEN: Well, you know, tune to the Web to get all sorts of information.

HEMMER: All sorts of information.

O'BRIEN: I think that's fair to say.

Coming up this morning, Michael Jackson late to court once again. How did the judge react this time? We've got the very latest on the trial and what was ailing the pop star.

That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired March 22, 2005 - 09:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING, with Soledad O'Brien and Bill Hemmer.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everybody. Nine o'clock here in New York. Good to have you along with us today.

Good morning to you again.

A busy morning, too. Much more on the ruling today on the Terri Schiavo matter.

A federal judge refusing to get involved in a decision to reinsert the feeding tube. We'll talk to a nurse today who helped care for Schiavo. She says the truth about her condition is not being told. We'll talk to her this hour.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Also this morning, what's happening with Michael Jackson? Did you see him yesterday appearing dazed and sort of feeble at the start of trial on a Monday? We're going to take a look at how that played out in court.

HEMMER: A half day today. We'll see what happens out there.

Here's Jack again.

What's on your mind?

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: What represents the greatest threat to our way of life in this country? Is it terrorism or is it the rapidly deteriorating economy? AM@CNN.com, your thoughts. We'll read some mail in a bit.

O'BRIEN: All right, Jack. Thanks.

Let's get right to those developments out of Florida in the Terri Schiavo case. A federal judge now refusing to order Schiavo's feeding tube be reinserted.

CNN's Elizabeth Cohen is at the courthouse in Tampa this morning.

Elizabeth, good morning to you. Explain to us the crux of the judge's decision here.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad. Well, here's the judge's decision right here, Robert and Mary Schindler, Terri Schiavo's parents, versus Michael Schiavo, her husband. The crux of the decision is the judge, the federal judge, James Whittemore, said, you know what? You just didn't show me that there is a likelihood of success when you go to get a permanent injunction to have that feeding tube put back in.

In other words, what they were asking for was a temporary restraining order. And he said, when you go to make this permanent, you haven't shown that there's a likelihood of success.

I was at that hearing yesterday and it was interesting because the judge several times said to the lawyer for the parents, look, show me some -- show me that you're going to have a likelihood of success. Show me some case law where other people have been successful, show me some precedent.

And he said, "I'm not asking this facetiously. I have looked and I can't find it. Can you show it to me?" And basically the lawyer for the parents said, no, that he couldn't show that kind of precedent. And that's the reason for the ruling today -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right. Elizabeth Cohen for us at the courthouse this morning. Elizabeth, thanks.

Back in the fall of 2003, Florida Governor Jeb Bush commissioned a report detailing the Terri Schiavo case. Jay Wolfson is an attorney. He's also professor of public health at the University of South Florida. He prepared that report. He joins us from Tampa this morning.

Nice to see you. Thanks for being with us.

JAY WOLFSON, ATTORNEY: My pleasure.

O'BRIEN: Your job, I know, was to represent Terri Schiavo's interest in all of this. What's your reaction to this federal judge saying that the feeding tube will not be reinserted at this point?

WOLFSON: Well, part of my reaction has to do with the way the law was upheld. You know, we followed Florida law in this case, followed the rules of civil procedure, the rules of evidence and the statutory provisions regarding guardianship in this state that have been carefully crafted over the past 15 years of bipartisan, political and religious discussion.

This ruling by the judge is a legal decision. It's the application of the law. It's a determination as to whether or not there's going to be a probability of success, which is what the judge has to determine if he's going to issue an injunction. And he determined that there wasn't.

You know, what we've talked about throughout the last 18 months that I've tried to participate in this case is that good science and good medicine and good law need, to the extent possible, to be applied to the extent that we know them. O'BRIEN: Doctors have said that Terri Schiavo has only reflex reactions, that she has no cerebral cortex shown by an MRI, they say. Her parents say she smiles, she has responses when they give her news and tell her things. What's the truth? You've sat with her for hours at a time trying to determine her actual state.

WOLFSON: Well, the fact is that the competent medical evidence that was presented in court, again, using the rules of evidence and rules of civil procedure in Florida, established that -- the medical evidence indicates that she's in persistent vegetative state. And the competent legal evidence that was presented indicates using the standards of proof in Florida for case like this, which is clear and convincing, that the wishes of Terri, as communicated to her husband and her brother-in-law and sister-in-law, are attempted to being fulfilled through his intentions.

We may not like those findings. I have a 97-year-old mother who is not doing well. And people say, "Do you want Terri to die, is that what you want?" No, I don't think anybody wants Terri to die.

The question is, how do we take the best knowledge that we have, the best science, the best medicine and the best objective interpretation of the law and apply it to protect our interests? And my understanding of what I've studied up until now is that that was done as best as we could given Florida law.

O'BRIEN: You wrote this report back in 2003, and you said that the family, the blood relatives of Terri Schiavo, voiced the disturbing belief that they would keep Theresa alive at any and all costs. Describe some of that discussion that you were part of. It's actually somewhat gruesome, because the attorney for Michael Schiavo took them through different elements of what might happen to Terri Schiavo.

WOLFSON: That was done in a deposition by Mr. Felos, who is an incredibly skilled attorney. And what he did during that -- that examination of the Schindlers is ask them, if they were to care for Terri at home and she developed acute diabetes and required that her left arm be amputated, would they do that? And then he step by step took them through this awful, gruesome process of basically "Boxing Helena," of cutting off her arms and legs.

And then he said, "If she were to require cardiovascular surgery what would you do?" And they said, "Well, we'd do it." And at that point Michael determined that he was not going to allow, as he says, the woman he loved, to be subjected to that kind of care and treatment.

I spoke with the Schindlers about that. And, you know, when you're in court, and when you're under examination by a very skilled attorney, sometimes they're very successful, as you journalists are, in directing responses in a way that's going to elicit something that you want them to say rather than what people really believe.

And the Schindlers said that's not what they meant to say. What they meant to say is that they love their daughter very much and they would do anything they could to keep her alive. And I'm confident and I truly believe that's what they want, that's what they believe.

O'BRIEN: As you well know, there are some people -- for example, a nurse we'll be speaking with later this morning -- who says, who claims that to her Michael Schiavo seemed very interesting in knowing when his wife would die, who also aggressively withheld therapies from his wife, from Terri Schiavo. Did you witness any of that?

WOLFSON: I didn't witness Michael interacting with Terri except once or twice. But going by the medical record -- and Karla (ph) was at the facility, she saw far more than I did. But I spoke with many of the incredibly dedicated hospice staff, the nurses, the police officers who have been spending months outside her room.

The medical record is fairly detailed. For the first several years of care, as many of you have heard, Michael was so demanding of the medical staff, of the staff of the facility that there was an effort to initiate injunctions against him to stop him from coming in because he was demanding so much. In the 15 years that Terri was in the facility, she never once suffered from a bed sore, which Ken Conner (ph), the governor's attorney, will tell you, as a plaintiff's attorney in those cases, is pretty extraordinary.

There's no evidence in the record to indicate that he withheld health care. After a certain point, after three or four years when the judgment in the malpractice case came through, Michael decided that he was going to abide by the advice that he had gotten medically from almost day one after Terri's accident, and agree that she no longer could return to the state that she had been to previously.

O'BRIEN: So then as an independent observer, is it your position that removing the feeding tube is what Terri Schiavo would have wanted?

WOLFSON: It's my assessment that the competent legal evidence that was presented in Florida courts using Florida rules of evidence, Florida rules of civil procedure, and the guardianship laws that the state has carefully crafted were followed. And that that evidence served as a substantial basis, clear and convincing, to reflect Michael Schiavo's intentions as he believed them to be interpreted from Terri.

O'BRIEN: I think that's a long and convoluted way of saying yes? Is that what you're saying, kind of?

WOLFSON: It's saying that if you don't believe Michael Schiavo, you're never going to believe Michael Schiavo. If you believe that he's fabricating this, then no matter what we say, then you're never going to believe it.

But as the case of my son, any 19-year-old son in Tallahassee, Allen (ph), called me on Friday and he said, "Dad, if I told you that I never wanted to be kept in a vegetative state alive in that situation and I did not have a living will, what would you do?" And I said, "Allen (ph), I would do everything I could to zealously advocate for your interests as much as it would pain me to disconnect you."

He said, "What if I told you that I wanted to be kept alive at all costs?" I said, "Then I would also do that."

If you believe -- and I think that the competent medical evidence based on the standards in Florida support the contention that there were two instances during which Terri Schiavo said to her husband, her brother-in-law and her sister-in-law in context at a funeral, two funerals of family members who had been on life support, that she would never want to be kept alive like that. And if that evidence is deemed competent, clear and convincing, then Michael is doing what he believes Terri wanted. And that's part of his job as her husband and as her guardian.

O'BRIEN: Jay Wolfson, obviously this case continues on. Thank you for joining us this morning and for some clarification as well.

WOLFSON: My pleasure.

O'BRIEN: Let's get right to Carol Costello. She's got a look at the headlines this morning.

Hey, Carol. Good morning again.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Good morning to all of you.

John Couey, a convicted sex offender, will remain behind bars until his trial for the kidnapping and murder of 9-year-old Jessica Lunsford. John Couey appeared in Florida court less than two hours ago. The judge called his suspected crimes "beyond words."

Jessica Lunsford's parents are calling for the death penalty. Another hearing is set for next month.

In southern California, testimony resumes this morning in a similar case. Five-year-old Samantha Runnion's body was found nearly three years ago about 50 miles away from her home. Alejandro Avila is charged with kidnapping, sexually assaulting and killing her in July of 2002. The suspect apparently approached the little girl, who was playing outside with a friend. And that story had to do with a lost puppy.

President Bush once again pushing reform in Social Security. In just over two hours, the president will speak at a town hall meeting in Albuquerque, New Mexico. He'll then return to his Crawford, Texas, ranch. President Bush is set to meet tomorrow with the Mexican president, Vicente Fox, and the Canadian prime minister, Paul Martin.

And a massive recall on Graco toddler beds. The Consumer Products Safety Commission says children could get caught in the slats, possibly breaking arms and legs. On top of the recall, the commission is fining Graco $4 million. It is the largest civil penalty ever issued against a manufacturer from the Product Safety Commission.

Back to you.

HEMMER: All right. Carol, thanks for that. There is another story developing that broke late last night on a reservation in northern Minnesota near the Canadian border, where officials there do not know why a young gunman stormed a school, killed 10 people, including himself.

Keith Oppenheim is at the detention center in Red Bank, Minnesota.

Keith, good morning. What happened?

KEITH OPPENHEIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Bill. We're trying to figure it out. In fact, we're at a detention center at the Red Lake Indian Reservation, awaiting to hear more details on the investigation.

What the FBI has told us so far is that yesterday a teenage gunman goes to the home of his grandparents on this reservation, he shoots and he kills them. And then he goes to Red Lake Senior High School, where he kills eight people.

Among those are a teacher, a security guard, five students. And he also injures 13 others. After an exchange of gunfire with police, we're told, then the gunman apparently kills himself.

This young gunman has been identified in local media reports as Jeffrey Weise. The FBI believes that he acted alone.

A firefighter for the reservation reported that the gunman's grandfather worked for the reservation's police department, and he believes that he used his grandfather's police-issued weapons in the killings. This morning, a tribal -- the tribal chief on the reservation spoke about the security at the high school and also about his concerns about what happened.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHAIRMAN FLOYD JOURDAIN, RED LAKE OJIBWA NATION: We're all -- you know, the huge question why. You know, just like in Columbine.

We have a security system that was implemented, in fact, before Columbine. And apparently the security there, the school had a plan, there was security in place, and they did everything they could to stop the tragedy yesterday. And it was beyond their control, unfortunately, and lives were lost.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OPPENHEIM: There are about 5,000 members of the Chippewa Tribe, Bill, who live here at the Red Lake Indian Reservation. And as you hearing, I think in the tone from the tribal chief, they are in a state of shock today.

Back to you.

HEMMER: Shock and stunned. You're exactly right about that, Keith. Were there any warning signs from this student in class or even outside of school?

OPPENHEIM: Well, nothing that I have confirmed. There are a lot of reports going on that he had written certain things on Web sites, that he had said things to students. We're hearing some students say that he had talked about doing this before.

But again, that's speculation still at this point. And even if he said all those things or wrote some of those things, in stories like this there's often a disconnect from people who heard such things from a student and their expectation that he would actually act on those instincts. So, you know, that's why I think people here are ultimately so shocked about what took place yesterday.

HEMMER: What a tragedy, too. From Red Lake, Minnesota, Keith Oppenheim. Thanks -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Dangerous weather popping around the South. Chad Myers at the CNN Center with the latest on that for us.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: In a moment here, Terri Schiavo's condition has been argued by the doctors and the courts and by Congress. We'll hear from a nurse in a moment who said she heard Terri Schiavo speak. She also says she heard some shocking things said by Michael Schiavo. She'll be our guest this hour.

O'BRIEN: Plus, high gas prices don't just mean more expensive fill-ups. There's a wide range of pain ahead. We'll explain.

HEMMER: Also, when there's no more Plaza Hotel, what happens to Eloise? The end of an era, but will her story live on? That's ahead this hour, too, on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Drivers across the country feeling the pinch at the pump. And it may be only the beginning. Gas prices now at a record high. And as CNN's Allan Chernoff tells us this morning, you might also be feeling the pain elsewhere.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SR. FINANCIAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pump and weep, $30 and counting to fill her up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This gas is a killer, especially in New York. It's a killer.

CHERNOFF: Never mind that adjusted for inflation gas remains cheaper than it was in the early '80s. It still squeezes the wallet.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's too high. And then I have a truck, so it's like $50 to fill up.

CHERNOFF: The energy squeeze gets tighter at home. Remember last month's heating bill? Yes, even the price of a slice. Carmine Malanga claims he had to cover the cost of heating the ovens and delivery.

CARMINE MALANGA, SAL & CARMINE'S: Everything goes up. And, you know, you have to add it to the bill.

CHERNOFF: Some airlines had pushed through two fare increases in recent weeks to help cover soaring jet fuel expenses. But yesterday Continental retreated from an additional $5 a ticket hike. FedEx also has slapped on an 8.5 percent fuel surcharge for air deliveries. Truckers also are passing along their extra costs for filling up.

But the cost of transportation, economists and retailers say, accounts for only about a penny of every dollar in price on the store shelf.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The delivery charge is just a small, small bit of the total cost of whatever is on that truck. And it's just -- it's splitting hairs. It just doesn't make sense to us. And it seems to me a little bit petty to pass on a cost like that.

CHERNOFF: That helps explain why consumer prices for the past 12 months are up only 3 percent, even after the jump in gas and other fuel prices. The cost of gas may go higher, but economists argue that's because the energy markets are simply out of whack and the increases won't stick. Because while refining capacity is limited, oil supplies are actually plentiful, which means the pain at the pump may not be permanent.

Allan Chernoff, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: And for the record, according to the latest Lundberg Survey, the average price for a regular grade gallon of gasoline in the country now is $2.10. It may go higher.

Stay tuned, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: That's a good guess.

Well, Terri Schiavo's husband says she would not want to be kept alive in the condition she is in. Ahead this morning, we're going to talk to one of her former nurses. She says Michael Schiavo is not looking out for his wife's best interests.

That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Welcome back. And back to Jack now and the "Question of the Day."

CAFFERTY: Thank you, Bill.

The federal budget deficit headed toward an all-time high this year. Likewise, the trade deficit, it's even bigger than the budget deficit. Then there are oil prices and rising interest rates and the falling dollar and Social Security and Medicare problems. The list just goes on and on.

In a new poll taken by the National Association for Business Economics, government spending and fiscal deficits are the biggest threats to economic growth. Now, this same organization seven months ago said the biggest threats to the economy, terrorism.

The question this morning is which do you think is the bigger threat to our way of life?

Paul in Tennessee writes: "Jack, stop the doom and gloom. The economy's growing, the deficits will be reduced when the economy grows. If we don't defeat terrorism, an economy won't matter. This question has an obvious answer, but you yourself are inciting people to give the wrong answer."

Dawn in Virginia writes: "You know who we need right now? Ross Perot. As crazy as people thought he was, he focused the national debate on the economy 13 years ago. We need to hear about his crazy aunt again."

Joan in Utah writes: "Both. By spending more money, money we don't have to fight terrorism, the terrorists are winning. It has been the downfall of many empires."

And Doug in San Diego writes: "What's the greater threat, terrorism or the economy? Neither. It's how easily America is sold on the next thing to fear."

HEMMER: Ooh.

O'BRIEN: Nice to see everybody agrees. That guy says neither, the other guy says both.

O'BRIEN: Well, if they all agree, they'd be -- we'd have no market here. So you got the buyers, you got the sellers. You got the -- you know.

O'BRIEN: I hear you, Jack.

CAFFERTY: I mean, I'd have to go out and get an honest job.

O'BRIEN: Wouldn't want that.

CAFFERTY: I absolutely want nothing to do with that.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.

A freak in nature -- a real freak of nature the topic of one of the most popular stories on our Web site at CNN.com. "National Geographic" experts have verified that a hog found in Georgia was eight feet long and weighed close to 800 pounds.

Known as Hogzilla, the hog was killed on a hunting preserve last summer. One of the super swine's tusks measured about 18 inches. Hogzilla is the topic of a documentary tomorrow on the National Geographic Channel.

The freaks -- the freaks tend to be a popular item for our folks here at CNN.com.

O'BRIEN: Well, you know, tune to the Web to get all sorts of information.

HEMMER: All sorts of information.

O'BRIEN: I think that's fair to say.

Coming up this morning, Michael Jackson late to court once again. How did the judge react this time? We've got the very latest on the trial and what was ailing the pop star.

That's ahead on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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