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U.S. Supreme Court Denies Schiavo's Parents' Request; News Conference on School Shootings in Minnesota

Aired March 24, 2005 - 10:59   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are getting to the top of the hour. So for our viewers who are joining us across the U.S. and all around the world on CNN International, welcome. I'm Daryn Kagan.
We have a breaking story out of Florida and out of Washington, D.C., as the U.S. Supreme Court has turned down the plea to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube. We're going to get to our top story in just a minute.

Also want to let you know we're expecting a news conference shortly. That one on the school shootings that took place in Minnesota. It will be at the hospital where some of the victims are being treated. We'll have that for you live when it begins.

First, though, let's get back to the Terri Schiavo story and the fast-moving legal developments in this life-and-death battle over Terri Schiavo.

It was less than 40 minutes ago the U.S. Supreme Court denying an appeal by Schiavo's parents to have her feeding tube reinserted. A Florida judge says he's going to rule within the next hour on the governor's latest attempt to intervene.

We are covering it all for you. Our Joe Johns is at the Supreme Court. Ed Henry is in the state capital of Tallahassee. And, once again, our Bob Franken outside of Terri Schiavo's hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida.

First, to the Supreme Court, where Terri Schiavo's parents have set another legal setback.

Joe Johns, you take it from here.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They certainly have, Daryn. The court essentially without comment denied their appeal here. It was the full court. It was not just Justice Anthony Kennedy, who was the person who first received this application.

It's interesting, I heard you talking just a couple of minutes ago about Michael Schiavo. Well, he and his attorney actually filed a response to the appeal here just a little while ago. I got to read through a bit. And they made some very interesting comments about the need they asserted to maintain the status quo. And we have a graphic to show you a little bit from that pleading.

It said, "The status quo today is that Mrs. Schiavo is exactly where she would want to be. She has been released from unwanted intrusive medical procedures according to her wishes. Preservation of the status quo would allow her t die in peace and maintain her dignity and autonomy."

So it looks like Michael Schiavo's arguments before the court, if they read those arguments, actually were persuasive. It's not clear at all, of course, whether the court even opened the document. We were told that the court did not request a response from Michael Schiavo.

Also, the House of Representatives and the Senate, the Republican leaders as well, filed amicas (ph) brief to the court here. All of those apparently unpersuasive. The court without comment deciding to deny this appeal -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Joe Johns live at the U.S. Supreme Court. Thank you for that.

With that decision, the spotlight goes to Florida. That is where Florida Governor Jeb Bush is trying to have Schiavo put in state custody. A ruling on that petition expected within this next hour.

Our Ed Henry following developments on that front. He joins us live now from Tallahassee.

Ed, good morning.

ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning again, Daryn.

That's right, all eyes now turning to the Florida governor. He has been trying to do all he can, searching every legal and political avenue over the last couple of days and weeks to try to save Terri Schiavo's life.

The problem is he is rapidly running out of time and options. But after this U.S. Supreme court decision, he is now the focus.

He is getting hit with a lot of phone calls, particularly from conservative activists. Emails are going around among conservative activists saying, "Now is the time. You have to call Governor Bush." Even though he's on the side of saving Terri Schiavo's life, there's a lot of pressure on him from conservatives to do more, to step in and really save her life.

He tried yesterday. He pushed the state Senate here behind me. They went into three hours of debate over legislation that would have reinserted the feeding tube for Terri Schiavo. That failed by a 21-18 vote.

Now, as you mentioned, the governor is waiting on a motion that he filed yesterday to have the state take over custody of Terri Schiavo. As you mentioned, it is before Judge Greer in Pinellas County. We are expecting that decision within the next hour. That is what Judge Greer indicated yesterday. In the meantime, while he was -- he is weighing it, Judge Greer last night issued an emergency order, however, saying that the state and this state agency, the Department of Children and Families, could not in the meantime move in and take custody. So we're all waiting for that decision from him. If he, Judge Greer, decides that the governor cannot take custody, then there will have to be a decision made whether the governor will want to step in anyway.

As I mentioned, a lot of pressure on him from the right. He is someone, a governor who is not up for election in 2006. He doesn't have to necessarily worry about which way the political winds are blowing. But he is certainly getting a lot of pressure blowing his way right now -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Well, and part of that pressure there, if you were listening in the last hour we had one of the supporters of the Schindler family call on Governor Bush to take it so far as to throw out the state constitution of Florida if they don't get the kind of ruling they would like out of Judge Greer. Any indication from this governor's office they would consider taking it that far?

HENRY: They're obviously looking at every option that they have. As I mentioned, the number of options are dwindling.

The governor clearly has to weigh and is weighing right now how far he wants to go. He first, of course, wants to wait for Judge Greer to decide. He certainly does not want to preempt that decision. But I think the...

KAGAN: Ed, let me jump in here because I think we -- Ed, I'm just going to jump in because I think we have the decision from Judge Greer. Our Matt Sloane, our producer, is at the judge's chambers and has that decision -- Matt.

MATT SLOANE, CNN PRODUCER: Hi, Daryn.

What we know right now, the judge has just made a -- issued a ruling about a motion filed by Mr. Felos to let the order from last night to prevent the Department of Children and Families from taking Terri out of the hospice. The judge has granted that order. So, in effect, his ruling from last night preventing them from take her from the hospice does stand at that time -- Daryn.

KAGAN: It does stand. So that's just on the restraining order, Matt? That's not his final decision?

SLOAN: Yes, this is just on the restraining order. We're still expecting a ruling from Judge Greer today regarding the matter regarding Dr. Chesher's (ph) testimony about the mental state of Ms. Schiavo at this point.

KAGAN: All right. We will be back with you on that decision. And once again, we expect that to come in within the next hour.

As I mentioned, we are following two big stories here, the Terri Schiavo story, but also out of Minnesota there's new details emerging today about the accused school shooter Jeff Weise. Here now we go Bemidji, Minnesota. Some of the survivors of that shooting giving their firsthand accounts. Let's listen in.

CODY THUNDER, SHOOTING VICTIM: I was in biology.

QUESTION: So you were inside the classroom? Were you sitting down?

THUNDER: Yes. So he must have shot me when I was sitting down.

QUESTION: Did he get to biology after (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

THUNDER: What?

QUESTION: Did he get to your classroom after he was in the first classroom?

THUNDER: I didn't hear you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

THUNDER: I don't know.

QUESTION: And you say you were behind the glass, you were sitting at your desk in biology class. Where was the glass?

THUNDER: It was -- I was like -- I usually sit on a bottom, like right on the other side -- or like the bottom chair. And it's the easiest exit. That's why I get there. And -- yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

QUESTION: Is that the front row or the back row?

THUNDER: Yes, front row. The first row right when you get in there.

QUESTION: And he was where compared to you? You're up in the front row.

THUNDER: He was -- I just looked around and he was on the other side. There was like a door, and then on the other side, right on the side, there's a glass just the same length as the door.

QUESTION: And he was peering in and holding a gun?

THUNDER: Yes.

QUESTION: What did you think when you saw him?

THUNDER: I was in shock. And I didn't have any idea. I was like, what is he doing? And he ended up shooting.

QUESTION: Did you even recognize it as a gun, or did you...

THUNDER: No, no. I thought he was messing around. I thought it was a paintball gun or something.

QUESTION: Was he smiling, Cody?

THUNDER: No.

QUESTION: Or what did his face look like?

THUNDER: No, he had a mean face.

QUESTION: He had a what?

THUNDER: A mean face.

QUESTION: Did he say anything? I know you said...

THUNDER: No, he didn't say anything.

QUESTION: What was -- which gun was he holding up? Was it...

THUNDER: I think it was a .9-millimeter.

QUESTION: A .9-millimeter. Was he wearing a vest, do you remember?

THUNDER: I heard he was wearing a vest, but I didn't see it.

QUESTION: Did it appear that he was just firing randomly, or did he -- did he appear to aim at you?

THUNDER: It looked like he was aiming, but -- he was aiming at me, and this he ended up getting me in the hip while I was sitting down.

QUESTION: How many other kids were in your class?

THUNDER: There were about 15 to 20 students.

QUESTION: What were the other students doing, do you have any idea?

THUNDER: No. They're -- I didn't say anything, but then once the glass broke, they started chaos.

QUESTION: Cody, what did you hear before you came over to your area?

THUNDER: I heard about six -- or, I heard a shot. And what scared me and made me jump. And I was really close. And then I looked at clock and then I turned around and there he was.

QUESTION: You had said you heard some other noise.

THUNDER: Huh?

QUESTION: You had said you heard some other noise, in fact, that the janitor was doing something? THUNDER: Yes.

I can't say?

I don't want to talk about it.

QUESTION: Lance, what do you remember about Monday?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lance said that he really doesn't feel like talking right now. So he declines to answer any questions at this point.

Lance and I are making a prediction, though, that Red Lake is going to state boy's basketball in 2007 and 2008. That's what we decided this morning.

Trudy (ph), did you want to say anything?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ryan feels really bad that he can't be here today. And he sends out his condolences to all of the family members that lost somebody. And he knows their names and who they are. And he's devastated by what happened.

And he just wants to get better. Yes.

QUESTION: Trudy (ph), what was Ryan's reaction when he started hearing names of the kids that died? Did you inform him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. He just wanted to know. And he said, "I know who they are. They're my friends."

QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. He -- Ryan was the type of kid that talked to a lot of people, and he mentioned that he did talk to Jeff.

QUESTION: What did he think of Jeff, or did he tell you anything about that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just thought that he was different.

QUESTION: Cody, can you talk about going back?

THUNDER: What?

QUESTION: Can you talk about your thoughts about going back to school?

THUNDER: I don't feel like going back to school.

QUESTION: What was that?

THUNDER: I don't feel like going back.

QUESTION: To any school or just...

THUNDER: No, I'm just thinking about going back next year.

QUESTION: Cody, can you tell us a little bit about your injuries? You said you were hit in the hip.

THUNDER: Yes, I was hit in the hip.

QUESTION: One shot?

THUNDER: Yes, one shot.

QUESTION: Which hip is it?

THUNDER: Right side.

QUESTION: Did you know immediately that the bullet had hit you?

THUNDER: I didn't feel anything. I thought it would be more painful of getting hit, but I wasn't really...

QUESTION: You said that you ran after getting hit.

THUNDER: Yes.

QUESTION: Where did you run to, out of class?

THUNDER: I ran -- I ran on the side of the brick wall. And then she told us to get into her office. And then there's about -- I ran, and there was about 15 students in there.

QUESTION: Who's office, who's "she"?

THUNDER: Ms. Rauls (ph) and Anderson. They're like combined.

QUESTION: Is that a teacher?

THUNDER: Yes, teachers.

QUESTION: Cody, did they have -- have they taken that bullet out of you yet?

THUNDER: No, they're keep it in.

QUESTION: They're going to keep it in?

THUNDER: It isn't bother us (ph), and it didn't hit no nerve or no bone.

QUESTION: Can you describe his appearance again? I know you mentioned something about the Army or -- you said something about his notebook.

THUNDER: No, I don't want to. QUESTION: How are you feeling towards Jeff? How are you feeling towards Jeff today?

THUNDER: I've got no feelings for him.

QUESTION: Are you angry?

THUNDER: I never thought he'd do it at all.

QUESTION: Cody, did you feel safe at school before the shootings?

THUNDER: Yes. I thought the security guards would have kept us safe.

QUESTION: When you say he was different earlier, you said you wanted to seek to him because he was alone. Did he dress differently? Did he act differently? Was he isolated?

THUNDER: Yes. He had -- he would come to school every day with a different hairstyle, and he came to school with horns, like devil horns or something. And it looks like he was trying to be evil.

QUESTION: Was that a special occasion? Was there something go on at the school, or did he just do this on his own?

THUNDER: He just did this on his own.

QUESTION: Cody, which of your friends died? And what would you like to say about them?

THUNDER: I knew most of them.

QUESTION: Who were they? And what do they mean to you?

THUNDER: You mean, just what everybody else means to me?

QUESTION: Cody, yesterday Michelle Kamburg (ph) told us that Jeffrey had talked about shooting up the school on Adolph Hitler's birthday, April 20. Had you ever heard anything about that threat?

THUNDER: I didn't hear anything about that.

QUESTION: She also said that he exchanged emails or different kinds of Internet communications with people. Had you ever exchanged any with him?

THUNDER: Nothing.

QUESTION: Cody, have you gotten -- I'm sure you have gotten a lot of support from not only your family, but also the community members around. How about out of state? Has anybody reached out to you?

THUNDER: Yes. My aunt (ph) came up from the cities and -- oh, and Columbine students visited us. QUESTION: Who was that?

THUNDER: Columbine students, a few students who visited us.

QUESTION: Have you already met with the Columbine students, or they just asked to come and visit with you?

THUNDER: Yes. And there's -- I don't know, probably after this.

QUESTION: When are they coming?

THUNDER: After this. Or they're already here.

QUESTION: Is that something you're looking forward to, meeting them and just trying to talk about what has been different for them?

QUESTION: Cody, did you ever share a classroom with Jeffrey?

THUNDER: Yes, last year I had like a few classes with him. And then I talked to him a few times.

QUESTION: What classes did you take?

THUNDER: Like -- I can't remember.

QUESTION: And what was he like in class when he was there?

THUNDER: I don't know, he looked like a cool guy. And then I went and talked to him a few times and he talked about nothing but guns and shooting people.

QUESTION: That's what he talked about in the classroom?

THUNDER: Yes. He'd be talking about guns and different kinds.

QUESTION: Cody, have you thought about how this day is going to change your life?

THUNDER: I don't know that school is always going to be a fear for me now.

QUESTION: Did the other kids make fun of him over the fact that he dressed differently and wore his hair in a strange way? Did people make fun of him?

THUNDER: No comment.

QUESTION: Make jokes about him?

QUESTION: Cody, he had gone to school in the city. Did that make him an outsider at the Red Lake School?

THUNDER: I didn't know that he went to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) school.

QUESTION: Cody, what is the first thing you're going to do when you get out of this place? The very first thing? THUNDER: Go home.

QUESTION: What else?

THUNDER: See my kitties.

(LAUGHTER)

QUESTION: Cody, when he talked about the guns -- when he talked about the guns, what did you think? Did you think it was odd? Were you worried? Did you think he might bring them to school? What did you think?

THUNDER: I never thought he would do this. I never thought that he would come up and try to shoot up the school.

QUESTION: What did he say about the guns?

THUNDER: He just talked about them. He talked about shooting people and stuff. And I never even thought he would come up here.

QUESTION: Did he talk about shooting specific people?

THUNDER: No. He just like messed around and stuff.

QUESTION: When you say he messed around, what did he say about it like?

THUNDER: He's like -- I don't know.

QUESTION: Cody, when you grow up and have children, what are you going to tell them about this day? How are you going to sum up this day?

THUNDER: I don't know, just tell them about it.

QUESTION: What do you think you will tell them (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

THUNDER: I got a bullet in my hip.

QUESTION: Cody, are you in pain physically? How do you feel?

THUNDER: No, not really, but once I move -- or it's pretty good once I take my medicine.

QUESTION: Cody, you are sitting side by side with Lance. What type of friends were you before Monday, and has this experience...

THUNDER: We're cousins.

QUESTION: You're cousins? Are you much closer today than when the week started?

THUNDER: No, we are close.

QUESTION: Cody, have you always been aware of all of the animation that was put online? Did you see any of it?

THUNDER: No, I haven't seen any of it until they have shown it on TV.

QUESTION: Had he talked about doing that?

QUESTION: What did you think of it when you saw it on TV?

THUNDER: I don't know, I just -- I never believed it. But I heard that he made that.

QUESTION: When you tried to talk to him, what kind of things did you try to talk to him about?

THUNDER: What?

KAGAN: We have been listening in to a news conference from Bemidji, Minnesota, chilling accounts from two of the students at Red Lake High school who was shot three day ago by school shooter Jeff Weise. Chilling accounts talking about how this boy over the years has talked about guns, what he did, and how that shooting took place.

Five students, one teacher, one security guard, all killed. Seven wounded. Two of the wounded are still in critical condition.

Interesting point from Cody Thunder -- that was the young man that was doing most of the talk. His cousin, Lance Crow (ph) also up there in the hospital gown. Cody Thunder saying there are actual students in Bemidji today that have come, students from Columbine that were part of that school shooting. And victims of that have come to talk with these students and give them some comfort and some understanding as only other kids who have been through that that can probably do.

Our Sean Callebs is standing by in Bemidji, Minnesota, and he has more -- Sean.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. To pick up on the Columbine, members of a select group that can only really understand the kind of shock and horror that students have to go through. And I think we could hear it in these two students' voices today. These are people that live in a pretty isolated area, suddenly thrust under the national spotlight.

Just to give a little bit of insight, we heard Cody Thunder say that when Jeffrey Weise walked into the school, he thought he had a paintball gun in his hand, not a real gun. And once the shooting started, then the real shock set in.

He walked in. He talked about the chilling moments as Weise continued to fire into the group and how they sought cover.

Lance Crow (ph) choosing not to speak today, 15-year-old, suffering pain. Another 14-year-old, Ryan Oginash (ph), was supposed to be here today, but he could not come down because he was going through some pain. Also, just quickly, Daryn, you heard him talk about how Lance and his family made a pact to win a basketball tournament in 2007 and 2008. All three of these youths very involved in basketball here. We can only hope for the best of for those three kids in the years to come -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Yes. Hopefully have some happy memories to look forward to. Sean Callebs in Bemidji, Minnesota. Thank you for that.

Of course our other big story of the morning, the Terri Schiavo case quickly making its way through the courts of the U.S. The U.S. Supreme Court turning down the appeal from Terri Schiavo's parents to have the feeding tube reinserted.

And just a few minutes ago, as we were going to that news conference in Minnesota, Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer ordering the restraining order he has on the state of Florida not to go in and take custody of Terri Schiavo. That remains in place.

Within the next 40 minutes, we are expecting a final ruling from Judge Greer on that case and on that specific decision. We're following it for you all the way from Washington, D.C.

In fact, we're going to go to Clearwater, Florida. This is outside Judge Greer's chambers. This is the attorney for Michael Schiavo. Let's listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: ... in this case.

We believe it is time for that to top, for this activity to stop as we approach this Easter weekend. And that Mrs. Schiavo be able to die in peace. And I would urge everyone who's involved in this case to leave the outward and go inward, and I hope everyone adopts a more reflective posture about this.

I've also -- on behalf of Mr. Schiavo, I also want to acknowledge the many, many people who have assisted so greatly in the legal effort . Without the efforts of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida, their legal director, Randall Marshall (ph), the Cooperating Council at Jenner & Block, their lead counsel at Jenner & Block, Tom Pirelli (ph), this effort would not have been possible.

It was a really Herculean legal effort and impossible for one person to do. And we're very grateful for the legal team that we've had assisting us.

We are also very grateful that Judge Greer vacated the automatic stay that the department got by virtue of taking an appeal. The restraining order against the Department of Children and Families is in full force. And, in fact, again, again, it saddens me greatly that we have to run to court to get court orders to protect Terri Schiavo from the abuse of the state of Florida.

The conduct of the executive branch at the state of Florida has been reprehensible in this case. You know, they've accused the court order -- the court's order as an abuse against Terri, and the real governmental abuse here is the -- is the action of the department and the government in trying to avoid and circumvent valid court orders.

But as I mentioned before, I sincerely hope that the great focus and media attention in this case can -- can peaceably settle and people move into this weekend in a frame of contemplation. I think that if there is anything that Mrs. Schiavo would want, she would want -- she would want that.

QUESTION: Is this over?

QUESTION: You suggested the DCF was mobilizing at this moment. Do you suggest they were trying to slip through this momentary window of opportunity to take custody of Terri Schiavo before this hearing?

FELOS: Yes, I am. I mean, it was obvious what happened at the hearing.

We were seeing stalling tactics by the attorney for DCF, and also the attorney for the parents. Once -- frankly, I don't believe when they filed their notice of appeal they realized that that gave them an automatic stay. When we filed our motion to vacate the automatic stay, my guess is, and our information is, is that they realized they had a short window of opportunity and they wanted to extend that as long as they can, as they could.

And I think the judge realized that. The judge realized that as well.

QUESTION: How long that was short window of opportunity?

FELOS: Well, I believe the notice of appeal was filed at 8:15 this morning. The judge's order vacating the automatic stay was entered just a few moments ago. So we're talking about, what, three hours or so.

QUESTION: Are you prepared to fight this new challenge in federal district court that Mr. Gibbs is talking about?

FELOS: Well, it's not a new challenge. It's my understanding that the complaint that was filed with Judge Whittemore, which he -- with Judge Whittemore, which was the subject of his denial of the Schindlers' request for a restraining order, has been amended to add some new claims.

We are -- the new claims raised are even less substantial than the old claims that were found legally insufficient to justify a restraining order. So we are confident that the Schindlers will not have any success in federal district court.

And that's why I mentioned again I think it should become obvious to everyone and every observer that the entire judicial system of the United States, the state courts in the state of Florida, the entire federal judiciary, has said this case -- this case must end. This case is over. Mrs. Schiavo's legal rights have been ruled on again and again and again. The courts have consistently found that she did not want to remain alive artificially. Her wishes should be carried out. And in that spirit, I hope that the parents do not keep pursuing fruitless legal options to the end. I think their time would be better served in reflection.

QUESTION: To clarify, do you believe in your mind and heart, do you believe that FDLE (ph) agents were on their way to the hospice this morning? Is that what you're telling us?

FELOS: I believe that as soon as DCF knew they had a window of opportunity that they were mobilizing to take advantage of that, without a doubt. Without a doubt.

Also, the doctor who signed the affidavit in support of their petition, it's my information -- and I don't know this for a fact, this is just what has been told me to me because I haven't had time, obviously, to look into many collateral matters -- but it's my understanding that this physician is associated with certain groups that have moral and ethical objections to removal of life support. I don't -- I want to be clear. I'm not stating that for a fact, but from what I have heard certainly substantiates in my own mind the entire -- the entire action of DCF has been a political setup from the beginning.

And again, it's -- I believe it's just revolting that our state government has been abused for this purpose.

QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

FELOS: Yes, I did. I did answer that, that we are, we are very grateful for the court's ruling. And we believe that effectively ends the litigation in this case.

QUESTION: What makes you believe that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) agents were on their way there?

FELOS: I didn't...

QUESTION: Were you informed? Or were the doctors at the hospice notified, or is there some tangible evidence of that?

FELOS: If you attended the hearing, it was obvious to anyone that the department was engaging in delaying tactics, asking for -- asking for a continuance of a short period of time to mobilize -- mobilize witnesses. The attorney for DCF asked for a slight postponement to talk on the cell phone to his superiors.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what was going to there. There was a stall tactic. I think the judge realized that by sending the bailiff out to get the attorney and to continue the hearing, and that's why the judge acted so promptly.

(CROSSTALK) QUESTION: If there was an automatic stay, and the judge knew there was an automatic stay, how could DCF not know that their own motion would trigger an automatic stay?

FELOS: In their own appeal?

QUESTION: I'm sorry, their own appeal.

FELOS: Well, you would have to ask -- you would have to ask them. I mean, it's an arcane -- it's an arcane point in the rules of civil procedure.

I mean, from our point of view, we litigated against Governor Bush in Bush v. Schiavo for over a year. And as the governor filed his successive appeals to delay the case and got the automatic stays, which we vacated, we were obviously intimately familiar with the automatic stay rule. But perhaps the attorneys for DCF were not.

QUESTION: Yesterday, you had direct information from the police...

FELOS: Yes.

QUESTION: ... that circulated. Did you have that today? Was there that same level of information from the police, that the DCF was on there, way to take custody or rehydrate Terri?

FELOS: No, not from the police. Not from the police.

QUESTION: From hospice workers?

FELOS: Well, there were others in contact -- there were others in contact -- other counsel in contact with other sources, but I will say no. We did not receive any information. We did not receive any information from the police. Yes?

QUESTION: If Governor Bush does, in fact, find a way to get Terri Schiavo out of the hospice, will you take legal action against he or any other politician that try and overrule the court's authority?

FELOS: Well, the only way I can contemplate Governor Bush or state officials taking Terri Schiavo from hospice is if they kidnap her. Period. There is no, absolutely no legal basis for them to do so. And the contrived, unconstitutional basis are using DCF as their political operatives in this case has been restrained by the court. So as situation stands now, absent of kidnapping, Terri Schiavo is going to remain at hospice.

QUESTION: Mr. Felos, on a personal note, has Michael Schiavo said his final good-bye to Terri, or does he plan to visit her again?

FELOS: Mr. Schiavo is with Terri on a constant basis. I mean, he is there. He is with her. He is by her bedside. He has been since the artificial feeding was removed and that's where he is going stay. QUESTION: Will the visitation rights change at all for the Schindler family over next few days?

FELOS: No. Absent some sort of abuse or reason, no. The -- Terri's family and those on the visitor's list that have been approved by the court are absolutely free to visit Terri pursuant to the terms of the court order.

QUESTION: Can you explain...

FELOS: Go ahead. Terri is peaceful. She's resting comfortably. She's dying. She's in her death process. She's being attended to by a team of wonderful and compassionate professional healthcare workers at hospice, who are well trained to see that her physical needs are met, and that she be able to die with dignity and die in peace.

QUESTION: You can articulate specifically how you were notified yesterday, and by whom? And what was said about the (INAUDIBLE)?

FELOS: Yes. Early into the -- I would say in the mid-afternoon, we started hearing rumors that some sort of action from DCF was imminent. We tried to track down those rumors, and couldn't -- we couldn't verify that one way or another. I received, then, a call from the attorney for Morton Plant Hospital, who informed me that he received a call from the governor's office informing him that DCF was coming to take Terri Schiavo at 4:00 and they wanted to make sure that Morton Plant Hospital would accept her as a patient for a surgical reinsertion of the feeding tube.

With that direct information of imminent action, we prepared a restraining order, set up an emergency hearing before the judge on an oral order, alerted the police authorities, alerted the sheriff of Pinellas Park Police Department that action was imminent. Once we got that direct information, we proceeded to make the best plans we could to meet an intervention between competing law enforcement officials.

When we came down to the courthouse for the immediate hearing, I also received a copy of a motion filed by the attorney for Morton Plant Hospital, to which were attached very recent press releases of statements made by the secretary of the Department of Children and Families, to the effect that the department, in essence, they don't care about the court orders in this case. They can make their own investigation and decision...

KAGAN: We've been listening into George Felos. He is the attorney for Michael Schiavo. He is speaking outside of the chambers of Judge George Greer. We are expecting within the next 25 minutes to hear a ruling from Judge Greer on a request by the governor's office -- Governor Jeb Bush -- to take custody, to allow the state to take custody of Terri Schiavo. It has been a fast-moving morning.

Probably one of the most significant developments, the U.S. Supreme Court denying the request by the Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's parents, to order, on behalf of the Supreme Court, the reinsertion of the feeding tube. That is not going to happen. Let's go to John King. He is with the president in Crawford, Texas -- John. JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Daryn, President Bush, informed by his deputy chief of staff Joe Hagin a short time ago at the ranch nearby here in Crawford, Texas, of the Supreme Court's decision. Aides tell us the president is disappointed. We do not expect to hear directly from the president on this today.

He, of course, was involved, rushing back from Crawford last week to sign that extraordinary piece of legislation passed by the Congress to try to take this case, the Terri Schiavo case, from the state court system in Florida and put it into the federal court system. It now appears that that effort has failed, first in the District Court in Florida, then the Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, Georgia, yesterday. And now the Supreme Court saying no, it will not intervene in this case.

A brief statement from the deputy White House press secretary, Dana Perino, to CNN. She says, quote, "The president looked at all options before signing legislation last weekend. He felt that the legislation passed by Congress was the best course of action. Terri Schiavo's case," the statement goes on to say, "is extraordinary and sad. As the president said yesterday, he believes that in a case such as this, the legislative branch and the executive branch should err on the side of life, which is what we did."

Note in that statement, Daryn, no criticism of the court system for the decisions made in recent days, but certainly the president said yesterday that he was watching the courts. He said yesterday that he certainly wanted the courts to get involved. But Mr. Bush also made clear, and White House officials are making clear to us today, that they do not believe there is anything else the president can do. And they say there are no plans to try any additional federal intervention -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Yes, right now the spotlight big time on his brother, Governor Jeb Bush, back in Tallahassee. Any indication that the president -- or any discussion publicly that the president has been in touch with his brother on this matter?

KING: He said yesterday he had not discussed next steps with his brother. He has, over the past several years, discussed this case publicly several times, and it is something he is quite familiar with, from his conversations with the brother. The White House officials make this distinction. They say the president and his brother, the governor, have discussed this case from time to time, but they say there has been no coordination about legal steps, or about any political steps, or about any tactical responses. They say the two have not talked about it in that way.

They say Mr. Bush decided to support that effort in Congress and get involved at the federal level, when his brother felt all of the state options were exhausted. Now, Governor Bush yesterday said there may be other avenues for him to get involved here, other executive powers at his disposal. But as of this time yesterday, the president said he had not discussed this with his brother. We will certainly ask the White House if there were any conversations last night or certainly on what could be a defining day today. KAGAN: All right. We'll be checking back with you. John King, live in Crawford, Texas, where President Bush is at his ranch. Once again within 22 minutes, we do expect to hear from Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer about this final decision about whether the state of Florida can take custody of Terri Schiavo. Much more on that straight ahead. Right now, a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: We continue our developing story on Terri Schiavo. 19 minutes until -- within the 19 minutes, we expect to hear from Judge George Greer in Florida, on whether or not the state of Florida will be able to take custody of Terri Schiavo.

Meanwhile, the biggest development other than that this morning, the decision by the U.S. Supreme Court not to take this case and not to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube. With that, we've had a lot of reaction coming in this morning from both sides of the family. We just heard from President Bush, and here now from Senator majority leader Bill Frist. He put out this statement where he says, quote, "I'm saddened by the decision of the court to reject Terri Schiavo's case for life, despite a compelling case for the re- examination of the medical evidence. It is a sad day for her loving family, and for her innocent and voiceless daughter.

That woman, Terri Schiavo, right now in a hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida. Our Bob Franken has been standing by with the latest from there -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And one of the intriguing stories going on here is the presence, not far away, of agents from DCF, the Department of Children and Families. When Governor Bush yesterday got legal advice that DCF might be able to act without authority from the courts, they were nearby, but there was never a coordination with the police who are here about picking up Terri Schiavo, about taking over custody of her.

In addition to which, the court order came down, and there's been since then a number of people who have said on the side that favors the removal of the feeding tube, that the DCF agents should ignore the court order and come in and pick up Terri Schiavo.

Well, there could be a very interesting dilemma for the police who are protecting the property here. They are local and county police. They participate under the mandates of the county court. Their instructions would be, I'm told by a variety of police sources, to uphold that order. Theoretically, you could have a confrontation between state authorities and the police here.

Now, we were told that wouldn't happen, there would be some sort of communication and they would work things out. But there was no such communication. So claims that there was something pending like that are probably quite a bit melodramatic. But the police say that it would be a dilemma if, in fact, something like that happened.

KAGAN: Bob, one of the questions answered by Michael Schiavo's attorney that there's a lot of visitation taking place there. He says that Michael Schiavo has been at his wife's bedside, has been at his wife's bedside since the feeding tube was removed, and that other members of the Schindler family have been allowed, and I guess a list that's been approved by a judge, a number of people have been allowed to visit Terri Schiavo. Any indication of that from where you are?

FRANKEN: Yes, we know that's true. Now, Michael Schiavo has taken an entrance that's out of view of the news cameras, but by all accounts, including the Schindler's, he is there. And proof of that came the other day when he was inside and the Schindler's waited a long time before they were able to go inside, and they complained about it. They were being kept outside by Michael Schiavo's orders. He is the guardian, of course, in this case, because he did not want any sort of awkward incident while he was in the room.

But the Schindlers, we've seen them on television repeatedly going into to be with their daughter. So yes, there's been a constant flow of visitors to Terri Schiavo.

KAGAN: All right, Bob Franken in Pinellas Park, we'll be back to you in just a moment.

Right now, let's talk about the medical side of what Terri Schiavo faces right now.

Our medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, is here with me right now. Some of the defenders and the supporters of the family have given some pretty graphic descriptions of what they say Terri Schiavo looks like right now. There's no indication those people have been in to see Terri Schiavo.

Seven days, is the seventh day without a feeding tube. Any indication of what she is facing?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, she's about to begin her seventh day, Daryn. Of course it was Friday afternoon that that feeding tube was taken out. And doctors do know what people feel like and what goes on in the body when someone is -- when food and water is taken away at the end of life. And the reason why they know this is that some cancer patient, some patients with Lou Gehrig's Disease, diseases like that, choose to take out their own feeding tube. And so they are able to tell doctors how it felt.

And I have been speaking to doctors who specialize in what is called palliative care, end-of-life care. And they say what these patients say is for that first day, they do feel hunger, but that they don't feel hunger or thirst after, that they say it actually becomes as they describe it, a natural way to die, that your body makes ketones. It goes into ketosis, and those ketones end up becoming sort of like the body's own way of keeping itself alive for several days after the nutrition has been taken away, and that the body actually produces endorphins in that state so that they don't feel pain.

And of course it's important to remember that what most doctors have said about Terri Schiavo is that her cerebral cortex in her brain isn't working, so she wouldn't feel pain anyway. So that's what doctors who specialize in palliative care have to say about that.

Let's take a little look at physiologically what happens to someone when food and dehydration is withheld. Day one, the lips and skin lose moisture, and doctors in the hospice would give some moisture to the lips and the skin, to replace some of that moisture that gets lost. They could put on cream, or put on other kinds of things. Day three and four, the heart rate goes up and the blood pressure goes down. Day five through 10, which is where Terri Schiavo is right now, altered breathing rate, slight decrease in movement. And day 10 through death, people go into acute renal failure and eventually cardiac arrest.

And, Daryn, the important thing to remember, as I talk to these doctors who specialize, who are at the bedside everyday, they say it sounds so horrible to do this day, that they say every day of the week hospice workers do this, they help people do their lives this way, and it can be done with dignity, and it can be done without pain, and it is done without pain.

KAGAN: And two points here, first of all, there are angels across America that are working in hospices that are doing wonderful work, but it's also important to point out, we don't know what Terri Schiavo is feeling. She is not, unlike the people that you are describing, she's not able to communicate. So in the end, we really don't know if she's able to feel pain or able to feel any of this, which is what makes it such a huge debate. Some people say this is allowing her to die in dignity, some people actually considering this a form of murder.

COHEN: That's right. I mean, really there two things we don't know. Nobody, nobody in this world can know absolutely for sure what she is feeling, if she's feeling, if she's thinking, and also as journalists, we don't know what she looks like, we don't know what she's going through; we're not in that room. We saw Bob Franken outside of the hospice. I was outside of that hospice earlier this week. We're not in the room. We can't really say how she was doing, or how she's looking.

KAGAN: We are waiting, and there's another room we're focused on. That is a courtroom in Pinellas County, actually Pinellas circuit court Judge Judge Greer. He has said before noon today, which is about 13 minutes away -- Elizabeth, by the way, thank you for that report. Within the next 12 minutes, we are expected to get this final decision. The governor, Jeb Bush, has asked for permission from the state to take custody of Terri Schiavo. A decision is expected by noon. We are monitoring Judge Greer's court.

A lot more news ahead. Right now, another break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: The Supreme Court, that is where one of the latest developments in the Terri Schiavo case took place earlier today. The high court refusing to order the reinsertion of the feeding tube to Terri Schiavo in Pinellas Park, Florida. We're also standing by for Pinellas circuit court Judge George Greer to make his final decision on whether or not the state of Florida can go in and take custody of Terri Schiavo, and then once again go ahead and reorder the reinsertion of that feeding tube. We're keeping our eyes on that story. That decision was expected before noon today. As soon as there is a decision, you will hear it live here on CNN.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

KAGAN: Once again, keeping our eyes on the Terri Schiavo case, a lot of developments today, a recap and much more news ahead, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: We're standing by waiting to hear from Pinellas circuit court Judge George Greer. He had promised a ruling by noon Eastern on whether or not he would allow the state of Florida to take custody of Terri Schiavo. As soon as that decision is released, you're going to hear about it right here on CNN.

Meanwhile, the Schiavo case has featured mountains of legal paper, there's reams of expert legal testimony. There's also countless exchanges between her parents and her husband, also activists who have adopted their causes, yet as our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield explains, maybe nothing speaks more about the Terri Schiavo story than the videotapes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Just this once let's pause and ask one question. Would the Terri Schiavo case have reached this level of intensity without these images?

Well, why did Bill Frist, the Senate Majority Leader and a hear surgeon question the idea that Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state?

SEN. BILL FRIST, MAJORITY LEADER: My question based on a review of the video footage, which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office, she certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.

GREENFIELD: Virginia Republican Senator George Allen, a layman, cited the same evidence.

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: For a woman who when I observe her on videotapes clearly is conscious and has the ability to feel.

GREENFIELD: And today, in announcing attempts by a state government agency to intervene on Terri Schiavo's behalf, Florida Governor Jeb Bush cited the conclusions of a neurologist who, among other things, reviewed the videos.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action.

GREENFIELD (on camera): But what do these images, a few seconds pulled from hours of tapes nearly four years old, what do they tell us? Are they pieces of evidence that Terri Schiavo is responding to the outside world or do they in some fundamental sense mislead us?

(voice-over): University of Wisconsin law professor Alta Charo clearly thinks so.

PROFESSOR ALTA CHARO, UNIV. OF WISCONSIN LAW SCHOOL: Oh, I think it's a profound impact, not only on lay people, on politicians. I mean politicians are human beings. They look at these videotapes.

They find it emotionally impossible to believe this woman is really unconscious and without any hope of recovery. And, of course, they begin to wonder isn't there something we should be doing to step into the situation?

Sad to say most people simply don't understand enough medicine to understand how this condition is even possible. This kind of condition, permanent vegetative state, the reflexes of waking and sleeping, of the hands opening and closing, of the yawning, all of those are so similar to what we do when we're awake that we tend to project and believe that there is a consciousness there, as there would be for ourselves. It's just irresistible for humans to do this.

GREENFIELD: That is the conclusion that the Florida courts have consistently reached but it is not the conclusion reached by the doctors who were hired by Terri Schiavo's parents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman is not in a coma. This woman is not in a PVS state.

GREENFIELD: And this is what has given that videotape such potency. If there's any doubt at all, the argument goes, you must resolve it on behalf of life. Whatever the medical facts, it is not hard to understand why the average person looking at those images sees them as at least raising doubt.

(on camera): Big, sweeping questions surround this case, the role of the courts and legislatures, the reach of federal power, the proper way to determine when a life is genuinely over.

Thousands of words will be used trying to deal with these questions but in this case those few images may well carry more weight than all those thousands of words.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: It has been a fast-moving morning, indeed. And we're going to continue to stay with the Terri Schiavo story. You'll have all of the latest developments right on CNN.

But that's going to do it for me. I'm Daryn Kagan. I will see you right here tomorrow morning. Carol Lin is in for Wolf Blitzer at the top of the hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)


Aired March 24, 2005 - 10:59   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: We are getting to the top of the hour. So for our viewers who are joining us across the U.S. and all around the world on CNN International, welcome. I'm Daryn Kagan.
We have a breaking story out of Florida and out of Washington, D.C., as the U.S. Supreme Court has turned down the plea to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube. We're going to get to our top story in just a minute.

Also want to let you know we're expecting a news conference shortly. That one on the school shootings that took place in Minnesota. It will be at the hospital where some of the victims are being treated. We'll have that for you live when it begins.

First, though, let's get back to the Terri Schiavo story and the fast-moving legal developments in this life-and-death battle over Terri Schiavo.

It was less than 40 minutes ago the U.S. Supreme Court denying an appeal by Schiavo's parents to have her feeding tube reinserted. A Florida judge says he's going to rule within the next hour on the governor's latest attempt to intervene.

We are covering it all for you. Our Joe Johns is at the Supreme Court. Ed Henry is in the state capital of Tallahassee. And, once again, our Bob Franken outside of Terri Schiavo's hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida.

First, to the Supreme Court, where Terri Schiavo's parents have set another legal setback.

Joe Johns, you take it from here.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: They certainly have, Daryn. The court essentially without comment denied their appeal here. It was the full court. It was not just Justice Anthony Kennedy, who was the person who first received this application.

It's interesting, I heard you talking just a couple of minutes ago about Michael Schiavo. Well, he and his attorney actually filed a response to the appeal here just a little while ago. I got to read through a bit. And they made some very interesting comments about the need they asserted to maintain the status quo. And we have a graphic to show you a little bit from that pleading.

It said, "The status quo today is that Mrs. Schiavo is exactly where she would want to be. She has been released from unwanted intrusive medical procedures according to her wishes. Preservation of the status quo would allow her t die in peace and maintain her dignity and autonomy."

So it looks like Michael Schiavo's arguments before the court, if they read those arguments, actually were persuasive. It's not clear at all, of course, whether the court even opened the document. We were told that the court did not request a response from Michael Schiavo.

Also, the House of Representatives and the Senate, the Republican leaders as well, filed amicas (ph) brief to the court here. All of those apparently unpersuasive. The court without comment deciding to deny this appeal -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Joe Johns live at the U.S. Supreme Court. Thank you for that.

With that decision, the spotlight goes to Florida. That is where Florida Governor Jeb Bush is trying to have Schiavo put in state custody. A ruling on that petition expected within this next hour.

Our Ed Henry following developments on that front. He joins us live now from Tallahassee.

Ed, good morning.

ED HENRY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning again, Daryn.

That's right, all eyes now turning to the Florida governor. He has been trying to do all he can, searching every legal and political avenue over the last couple of days and weeks to try to save Terri Schiavo's life.

The problem is he is rapidly running out of time and options. But after this U.S. Supreme court decision, he is now the focus.

He is getting hit with a lot of phone calls, particularly from conservative activists. Emails are going around among conservative activists saying, "Now is the time. You have to call Governor Bush." Even though he's on the side of saving Terri Schiavo's life, there's a lot of pressure on him from conservatives to do more, to step in and really save her life.

He tried yesterday. He pushed the state Senate here behind me. They went into three hours of debate over legislation that would have reinserted the feeding tube for Terri Schiavo. That failed by a 21-18 vote.

Now, as you mentioned, the governor is waiting on a motion that he filed yesterday to have the state take over custody of Terri Schiavo. As you mentioned, it is before Judge Greer in Pinellas County. We are expecting that decision within the next hour. That is what Judge Greer indicated yesterday. In the meantime, while he was -- he is weighing it, Judge Greer last night issued an emergency order, however, saying that the state and this state agency, the Department of Children and Families, could not in the meantime move in and take custody. So we're all waiting for that decision from him. If he, Judge Greer, decides that the governor cannot take custody, then there will have to be a decision made whether the governor will want to step in anyway.

As I mentioned, a lot of pressure on him from the right. He is someone, a governor who is not up for election in 2006. He doesn't have to necessarily worry about which way the political winds are blowing. But he is certainly getting a lot of pressure blowing his way right now -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Well, and part of that pressure there, if you were listening in the last hour we had one of the supporters of the Schindler family call on Governor Bush to take it so far as to throw out the state constitution of Florida if they don't get the kind of ruling they would like out of Judge Greer. Any indication from this governor's office they would consider taking it that far?

HENRY: They're obviously looking at every option that they have. As I mentioned, the number of options are dwindling.

The governor clearly has to weigh and is weighing right now how far he wants to go. He first, of course, wants to wait for Judge Greer to decide. He certainly does not want to preempt that decision. But I think the...

KAGAN: Ed, let me jump in here because I think we -- Ed, I'm just going to jump in because I think we have the decision from Judge Greer. Our Matt Sloane, our producer, is at the judge's chambers and has that decision -- Matt.

MATT SLOANE, CNN PRODUCER: Hi, Daryn.

What we know right now, the judge has just made a -- issued a ruling about a motion filed by Mr. Felos to let the order from last night to prevent the Department of Children and Families from taking Terri out of the hospice. The judge has granted that order. So, in effect, his ruling from last night preventing them from take her from the hospice does stand at that time -- Daryn.

KAGAN: It does stand. So that's just on the restraining order, Matt? That's not his final decision?

SLOAN: Yes, this is just on the restraining order. We're still expecting a ruling from Judge Greer today regarding the matter regarding Dr. Chesher's (ph) testimony about the mental state of Ms. Schiavo at this point.

KAGAN: All right. We will be back with you on that decision. And once again, we expect that to come in within the next hour.

As I mentioned, we are following two big stories here, the Terri Schiavo story, but also out of Minnesota there's new details emerging today about the accused school shooter Jeff Weise. Here now we go Bemidji, Minnesota. Some of the survivors of that shooting giving their firsthand accounts. Let's listen in.

CODY THUNDER, SHOOTING VICTIM: I was in biology.

QUESTION: So you were inside the classroom? Were you sitting down?

THUNDER: Yes. So he must have shot me when I was sitting down.

QUESTION: Did he get to biology after (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

THUNDER: What?

QUESTION: Did he get to your classroom after he was in the first classroom?

THUNDER: I didn't hear you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

THUNDER: I don't know.

QUESTION: And you say you were behind the glass, you were sitting at your desk in biology class. Where was the glass?

THUNDER: It was -- I was like -- I usually sit on a bottom, like right on the other side -- or like the bottom chair. And it's the easiest exit. That's why I get there. And -- yeah.

(LAUGHTER)

QUESTION: Is that the front row or the back row?

THUNDER: Yes, front row. The first row right when you get in there.

QUESTION: And he was where compared to you? You're up in the front row.

THUNDER: He was -- I just looked around and he was on the other side. There was like a door, and then on the other side, right on the side, there's a glass just the same length as the door.

QUESTION: And he was peering in and holding a gun?

THUNDER: Yes.

QUESTION: What did you think when you saw him?

THUNDER: I was in shock. And I didn't have any idea. I was like, what is he doing? And he ended up shooting.

QUESTION: Did you even recognize it as a gun, or did you...

THUNDER: No, no. I thought he was messing around. I thought it was a paintball gun or something.

QUESTION: Was he smiling, Cody?

THUNDER: No.

QUESTION: Or what did his face look like?

THUNDER: No, he had a mean face.

QUESTION: He had a what?

THUNDER: A mean face.

QUESTION: Did he say anything? I know you said...

THUNDER: No, he didn't say anything.

QUESTION: What was -- which gun was he holding up? Was it...

THUNDER: I think it was a .9-millimeter.

QUESTION: A .9-millimeter. Was he wearing a vest, do you remember?

THUNDER: I heard he was wearing a vest, but I didn't see it.

QUESTION: Did it appear that he was just firing randomly, or did he -- did he appear to aim at you?

THUNDER: It looked like he was aiming, but -- he was aiming at me, and this he ended up getting me in the hip while I was sitting down.

QUESTION: How many other kids were in your class?

THUNDER: There were about 15 to 20 students.

QUESTION: What were the other students doing, do you have any idea?

THUNDER: No. They're -- I didn't say anything, but then once the glass broke, they started chaos.

QUESTION: Cody, what did you hear before you came over to your area?

THUNDER: I heard about six -- or, I heard a shot. And what scared me and made me jump. And I was really close. And then I looked at clock and then I turned around and there he was.

QUESTION: You had said you heard some other noise.

THUNDER: Huh?

QUESTION: You had said you heard some other noise, in fact, that the janitor was doing something? THUNDER: Yes.

I can't say?

I don't want to talk about it.

QUESTION: Lance, what do you remember about Monday?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lance said that he really doesn't feel like talking right now. So he declines to answer any questions at this point.

Lance and I are making a prediction, though, that Red Lake is going to state boy's basketball in 2007 and 2008. That's what we decided this morning.

Trudy (ph), did you want to say anything?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ryan feels really bad that he can't be here today. And he sends out his condolences to all of the family members that lost somebody. And he knows their names and who they are. And he's devastated by what happened.

And he just wants to get better. Yes.

QUESTION: Trudy (ph), what was Ryan's reaction when he started hearing names of the kids that died? Did you inform him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. He just wanted to know. And he said, "I know who they are. They're my friends."

QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. He -- Ryan was the type of kid that talked to a lot of people, and he mentioned that he did talk to Jeff.

QUESTION: What did he think of Jeff, or did he tell you anything about that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He just thought that he was different.

QUESTION: Cody, can you talk about going back?

THUNDER: What?

QUESTION: Can you talk about your thoughts about going back to school?

THUNDER: I don't feel like going back to school.

QUESTION: What was that?

THUNDER: I don't feel like going back.

QUESTION: To any school or just...

THUNDER: No, I'm just thinking about going back next year.

QUESTION: Cody, can you tell us a little bit about your injuries? You said you were hit in the hip.

THUNDER: Yes, I was hit in the hip.

QUESTION: One shot?

THUNDER: Yes, one shot.

QUESTION: Which hip is it?

THUNDER: Right side.

QUESTION: Did you know immediately that the bullet had hit you?

THUNDER: I didn't feel anything. I thought it would be more painful of getting hit, but I wasn't really...

QUESTION: You said that you ran after getting hit.

THUNDER: Yes.

QUESTION: Where did you run to, out of class?

THUNDER: I ran -- I ran on the side of the brick wall. And then she told us to get into her office. And then there's about -- I ran, and there was about 15 students in there.

QUESTION: Who's office, who's "she"?

THUNDER: Ms. Rauls (ph) and Anderson. They're like combined.

QUESTION: Is that a teacher?

THUNDER: Yes, teachers.

QUESTION: Cody, did they have -- have they taken that bullet out of you yet?

THUNDER: No, they're keep it in.

QUESTION: They're going to keep it in?

THUNDER: It isn't bother us (ph), and it didn't hit no nerve or no bone.

QUESTION: Can you describe his appearance again? I know you mentioned something about the Army or -- you said something about his notebook.

THUNDER: No, I don't want to. QUESTION: How are you feeling towards Jeff? How are you feeling towards Jeff today?

THUNDER: I've got no feelings for him.

QUESTION: Are you angry?

THUNDER: I never thought he'd do it at all.

QUESTION: Cody, did you feel safe at school before the shootings?

THUNDER: Yes. I thought the security guards would have kept us safe.

QUESTION: When you say he was different earlier, you said you wanted to seek to him because he was alone. Did he dress differently? Did he act differently? Was he isolated?

THUNDER: Yes. He had -- he would come to school every day with a different hairstyle, and he came to school with horns, like devil horns or something. And it looks like he was trying to be evil.

QUESTION: Was that a special occasion? Was there something go on at the school, or did he just do this on his own?

THUNDER: He just did this on his own.

QUESTION: Cody, which of your friends died? And what would you like to say about them?

THUNDER: I knew most of them.

QUESTION: Who were they? And what do they mean to you?

THUNDER: You mean, just what everybody else means to me?

QUESTION: Cody, yesterday Michelle Kamburg (ph) told us that Jeffrey had talked about shooting up the school on Adolph Hitler's birthday, April 20. Had you ever heard anything about that threat?

THUNDER: I didn't hear anything about that.

QUESTION: She also said that he exchanged emails or different kinds of Internet communications with people. Had you ever exchanged any with him?

THUNDER: Nothing.

QUESTION: Cody, have you gotten -- I'm sure you have gotten a lot of support from not only your family, but also the community members around. How about out of state? Has anybody reached out to you?

THUNDER: Yes. My aunt (ph) came up from the cities and -- oh, and Columbine students visited us. QUESTION: Who was that?

THUNDER: Columbine students, a few students who visited us.

QUESTION: Have you already met with the Columbine students, or they just asked to come and visit with you?

THUNDER: Yes. And there's -- I don't know, probably after this.

QUESTION: When are they coming?

THUNDER: After this. Or they're already here.

QUESTION: Is that something you're looking forward to, meeting them and just trying to talk about what has been different for them?

QUESTION: Cody, did you ever share a classroom with Jeffrey?

THUNDER: Yes, last year I had like a few classes with him. And then I talked to him a few times.

QUESTION: What classes did you take?

THUNDER: Like -- I can't remember.

QUESTION: And what was he like in class when he was there?

THUNDER: I don't know, he looked like a cool guy. And then I went and talked to him a few times and he talked about nothing but guns and shooting people.

QUESTION: That's what he talked about in the classroom?

THUNDER: Yes. He'd be talking about guns and different kinds.

QUESTION: Cody, have you thought about how this day is going to change your life?

THUNDER: I don't know that school is always going to be a fear for me now.

QUESTION: Did the other kids make fun of him over the fact that he dressed differently and wore his hair in a strange way? Did people make fun of him?

THUNDER: No comment.

QUESTION: Make jokes about him?

QUESTION: Cody, he had gone to school in the city. Did that make him an outsider at the Red Lake School?

THUNDER: I didn't know that he went to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) school.

QUESTION: Cody, what is the first thing you're going to do when you get out of this place? The very first thing? THUNDER: Go home.

QUESTION: What else?

THUNDER: See my kitties.

(LAUGHTER)

QUESTION: Cody, when he talked about the guns -- when he talked about the guns, what did you think? Did you think it was odd? Were you worried? Did you think he might bring them to school? What did you think?

THUNDER: I never thought he would do this. I never thought that he would come up and try to shoot up the school.

QUESTION: What did he say about the guns?

THUNDER: He just talked about them. He talked about shooting people and stuff. And I never even thought he would come up here.

QUESTION: Did he talk about shooting specific people?

THUNDER: No. He just like messed around and stuff.

QUESTION: When you say he messed around, what did he say about it like?

THUNDER: He's like -- I don't know.

QUESTION: Cody, when you grow up and have children, what are you going to tell them about this day? How are you going to sum up this day?

THUNDER: I don't know, just tell them about it.

QUESTION: What do you think you will tell them (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

THUNDER: I got a bullet in my hip.

QUESTION: Cody, are you in pain physically? How do you feel?

THUNDER: No, not really, but once I move -- or it's pretty good once I take my medicine.

QUESTION: Cody, you are sitting side by side with Lance. What type of friends were you before Monday, and has this experience...

THUNDER: We're cousins.

QUESTION: You're cousins? Are you much closer today than when the week started?

THUNDER: No, we are close.

QUESTION: Cody, have you always been aware of all of the animation that was put online? Did you see any of it?

THUNDER: No, I haven't seen any of it until they have shown it on TV.

QUESTION: Had he talked about doing that?

QUESTION: What did you think of it when you saw it on TV?

THUNDER: I don't know, I just -- I never believed it. But I heard that he made that.

QUESTION: When you tried to talk to him, what kind of things did you try to talk to him about?

THUNDER: What?

KAGAN: We have been listening in to a news conference from Bemidji, Minnesota, chilling accounts from two of the students at Red Lake High school who was shot three day ago by school shooter Jeff Weise. Chilling accounts talking about how this boy over the years has talked about guns, what he did, and how that shooting took place.

Five students, one teacher, one security guard, all killed. Seven wounded. Two of the wounded are still in critical condition.

Interesting point from Cody Thunder -- that was the young man that was doing most of the talk. His cousin, Lance Crow (ph) also up there in the hospital gown. Cody Thunder saying there are actual students in Bemidji today that have come, students from Columbine that were part of that school shooting. And victims of that have come to talk with these students and give them some comfort and some understanding as only other kids who have been through that that can probably do.

Our Sean Callebs is standing by in Bemidji, Minnesota, and he has more -- Sean.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Exactly. To pick up on the Columbine, members of a select group that can only really understand the kind of shock and horror that students have to go through. And I think we could hear it in these two students' voices today. These are people that live in a pretty isolated area, suddenly thrust under the national spotlight.

Just to give a little bit of insight, we heard Cody Thunder say that when Jeffrey Weise walked into the school, he thought he had a paintball gun in his hand, not a real gun. And once the shooting started, then the real shock set in.

He walked in. He talked about the chilling moments as Weise continued to fire into the group and how they sought cover.

Lance Crow (ph) choosing not to speak today, 15-year-old, suffering pain. Another 14-year-old, Ryan Oginash (ph), was supposed to be here today, but he could not come down because he was going through some pain. Also, just quickly, Daryn, you heard him talk about how Lance and his family made a pact to win a basketball tournament in 2007 and 2008. All three of these youths very involved in basketball here. We can only hope for the best of for those three kids in the years to come -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Yes. Hopefully have some happy memories to look forward to. Sean Callebs in Bemidji, Minnesota. Thank you for that.

Of course our other big story of the morning, the Terri Schiavo case quickly making its way through the courts of the U.S. The U.S. Supreme Court turning down the appeal from Terri Schiavo's parents to have the feeding tube reinserted.

And just a few minutes ago, as we were going to that news conference in Minnesota, Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer ordering the restraining order he has on the state of Florida not to go in and take custody of Terri Schiavo. That remains in place.

Within the next 40 minutes, we are expecting a final ruling from Judge Greer on that case and on that specific decision. We're following it for you all the way from Washington, D.C.

In fact, we're going to go to Clearwater, Florida. This is outside Judge Greer's chambers. This is the attorney for Michael Schiavo. Let's listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: ... in this case.

We believe it is time for that to top, for this activity to stop as we approach this Easter weekend. And that Mrs. Schiavo be able to die in peace. And I would urge everyone who's involved in this case to leave the outward and go inward, and I hope everyone adopts a more reflective posture about this.

I've also -- on behalf of Mr. Schiavo, I also want to acknowledge the many, many people who have assisted so greatly in the legal effort . Without the efforts of the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida, their legal director, Randall Marshall (ph), the Cooperating Council at Jenner & Block, their lead counsel at Jenner & Block, Tom Pirelli (ph), this effort would not have been possible.

It was a really Herculean legal effort and impossible for one person to do. And we're very grateful for the legal team that we've had assisting us.

We are also very grateful that Judge Greer vacated the automatic stay that the department got by virtue of taking an appeal. The restraining order against the Department of Children and Families is in full force. And, in fact, again, again, it saddens me greatly that we have to run to court to get court orders to protect Terri Schiavo from the abuse of the state of Florida.

The conduct of the executive branch at the state of Florida has been reprehensible in this case. You know, they've accused the court order -- the court's order as an abuse against Terri, and the real governmental abuse here is the -- is the action of the department and the government in trying to avoid and circumvent valid court orders.

But as I mentioned before, I sincerely hope that the great focus and media attention in this case can -- can peaceably settle and people move into this weekend in a frame of contemplation. I think that if there is anything that Mrs. Schiavo would want, she would want -- she would want that.

QUESTION: Is this over?

QUESTION: You suggested the DCF was mobilizing at this moment. Do you suggest they were trying to slip through this momentary window of opportunity to take custody of Terri Schiavo before this hearing?

FELOS: Yes, I am. I mean, it was obvious what happened at the hearing.

We were seeing stalling tactics by the attorney for DCF, and also the attorney for the parents. Once -- frankly, I don't believe when they filed their notice of appeal they realized that that gave them an automatic stay. When we filed our motion to vacate the automatic stay, my guess is, and our information is, is that they realized they had a short window of opportunity and they wanted to extend that as long as they can, as they could.

And I think the judge realized that. The judge realized that as well.

QUESTION: How long that was short window of opportunity?

FELOS: Well, I believe the notice of appeal was filed at 8:15 this morning. The judge's order vacating the automatic stay was entered just a few moments ago. So we're talking about, what, three hours or so.

QUESTION: Are you prepared to fight this new challenge in federal district court that Mr. Gibbs is talking about?

FELOS: Well, it's not a new challenge. It's my understanding that the complaint that was filed with Judge Whittemore, which he -- with Judge Whittemore, which was the subject of his denial of the Schindlers' request for a restraining order, has been amended to add some new claims.

We are -- the new claims raised are even less substantial than the old claims that were found legally insufficient to justify a restraining order. So we are confident that the Schindlers will not have any success in federal district court.

And that's why I mentioned again I think it should become obvious to everyone and every observer that the entire judicial system of the United States, the state courts in the state of Florida, the entire federal judiciary, has said this case -- this case must end. This case is over. Mrs. Schiavo's legal rights have been ruled on again and again and again. The courts have consistently found that she did not want to remain alive artificially. Her wishes should be carried out. And in that spirit, I hope that the parents do not keep pursuing fruitless legal options to the end. I think their time would be better served in reflection.

QUESTION: To clarify, do you believe in your mind and heart, do you believe that FDLE (ph) agents were on their way to the hospice this morning? Is that what you're telling us?

FELOS: I believe that as soon as DCF knew they had a window of opportunity that they were mobilizing to take advantage of that, without a doubt. Without a doubt.

Also, the doctor who signed the affidavit in support of their petition, it's my information -- and I don't know this for a fact, this is just what has been told me to me because I haven't had time, obviously, to look into many collateral matters -- but it's my understanding that this physician is associated with certain groups that have moral and ethical objections to removal of life support. I don't -- I want to be clear. I'm not stating that for a fact, but from what I have heard certainly substantiates in my own mind the entire -- the entire action of DCF has been a political setup from the beginning.

And again, it's -- I believe it's just revolting that our state government has been abused for this purpose.

QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

FELOS: Yes, I did. I did answer that, that we are, we are very grateful for the court's ruling. And we believe that effectively ends the litigation in this case.

QUESTION: What makes you believe that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) agents were on their way there?

FELOS: I didn't...

QUESTION: Were you informed? Or were the doctors at the hospice notified, or is there some tangible evidence of that?

FELOS: If you attended the hearing, it was obvious to anyone that the department was engaging in delaying tactics, asking for -- asking for a continuance of a short period of time to mobilize -- mobilize witnesses. The attorney for DCF asked for a slight postponement to talk on the cell phone to his superiors.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out what was going to there. There was a stall tactic. I think the judge realized that by sending the bailiff out to get the attorney and to continue the hearing, and that's why the judge acted so promptly.

(CROSSTALK) QUESTION: If there was an automatic stay, and the judge knew there was an automatic stay, how could DCF not know that their own motion would trigger an automatic stay?

FELOS: In their own appeal?

QUESTION: I'm sorry, their own appeal.

FELOS: Well, you would have to ask -- you would have to ask them. I mean, it's an arcane -- it's an arcane point in the rules of civil procedure.

I mean, from our point of view, we litigated against Governor Bush in Bush v. Schiavo for over a year. And as the governor filed his successive appeals to delay the case and got the automatic stays, which we vacated, we were obviously intimately familiar with the automatic stay rule. But perhaps the attorneys for DCF were not.

QUESTION: Yesterday, you had direct information from the police...

FELOS: Yes.

QUESTION: ... that circulated. Did you have that today? Was there that same level of information from the police, that the DCF was on there, way to take custody or rehydrate Terri?

FELOS: No, not from the police. Not from the police.

QUESTION: From hospice workers?

FELOS: Well, there were others in contact -- there were others in contact -- other counsel in contact with other sources, but I will say no. We did not receive any information. We did not receive any information from the police. Yes?

QUESTION: If Governor Bush does, in fact, find a way to get Terri Schiavo out of the hospice, will you take legal action against he or any other politician that try and overrule the court's authority?

FELOS: Well, the only way I can contemplate Governor Bush or state officials taking Terri Schiavo from hospice is if they kidnap her. Period. There is no, absolutely no legal basis for them to do so. And the contrived, unconstitutional basis are using DCF as their political operatives in this case has been restrained by the court. So as situation stands now, absent of kidnapping, Terri Schiavo is going to remain at hospice.

QUESTION: Mr. Felos, on a personal note, has Michael Schiavo said his final good-bye to Terri, or does he plan to visit her again?

FELOS: Mr. Schiavo is with Terri on a constant basis. I mean, he is there. He is with her. He is by her bedside. He has been since the artificial feeding was removed and that's where he is going stay. QUESTION: Will the visitation rights change at all for the Schindler family over next few days?

FELOS: No. Absent some sort of abuse or reason, no. The -- Terri's family and those on the visitor's list that have been approved by the court are absolutely free to visit Terri pursuant to the terms of the court order.

QUESTION: Can you explain...

FELOS: Go ahead. Terri is peaceful. She's resting comfortably. She's dying. She's in her death process. She's being attended to by a team of wonderful and compassionate professional healthcare workers at hospice, who are well trained to see that her physical needs are met, and that she be able to die with dignity and die in peace.

QUESTION: You can articulate specifically how you were notified yesterday, and by whom? And what was said about the (INAUDIBLE)?

FELOS: Yes. Early into the -- I would say in the mid-afternoon, we started hearing rumors that some sort of action from DCF was imminent. We tried to track down those rumors, and couldn't -- we couldn't verify that one way or another. I received, then, a call from the attorney for Morton Plant Hospital, who informed me that he received a call from the governor's office informing him that DCF was coming to take Terri Schiavo at 4:00 and they wanted to make sure that Morton Plant Hospital would accept her as a patient for a surgical reinsertion of the feeding tube.

With that direct information of imminent action, we prepared a restraining order, set up an emergency hearing before the judge on an oral order, alerted the police authorities, alerted the sheriff of Pinellas Park Police Department that action was imminent. Once we got that direct information, we proceeded to make the best plans we could to meet an intervention between competing law enforcement officials.

When we came down to the courthouse for the immediate hearing, I also received a copy of a motion filed by the attorney for Morton Plant Hospital, to which were attached very recent press releases of statements made by the secretary of the Department of Children and Families, to the effect that the department, in essence, they don't care about the court orders in this case. They can make their own investigation and decision...

KAGAN: We've been listening into George Felos. He is the attorney for Michael Schiavo. He is speaking outside of the chambers of Judge George Greer. We are expecting within the next 25 minutes to hear a ruling from Judge Greer on a request by the governor's office -- Governor Jeb Bush -- to take custody, to allow the state to take custody of Terri Schiavo. It has been a fast-moving morning.

Probably one of the most significant developments, the U.S. Supreme Court denying the request by the Schindler family, Terri Schiavo's parents, to order, on behalf of the Supreme Court, the reinsertion of the feeding tube. That is not going to happen. Let's go to John King. He is with the president in Crawford, Texas -- John. JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Daryn, President Bush, informed by his deputy chief of staff Joe Hagin a short time ago at the ranch nearby here in Crawford, Texas, of the Supreme Court's decision. Aides tell us the president is disappointed. We do not expect to hear directly from the president on this today.

He, of course, was involved, rushing back from Crawford last week to sign that extraordinary piece of legislation passed by the Congress to try to take this case, the Terri Schiavo case, from the state court system in Florida and put it into the federal court system. It now appears that that effort has failed, first in the District Court in Florida, then the Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, Georgia, yesterday. And now the Supreme Court saying no, it will not intervene in this case.

A brief statement from the deputy White House press secretary, Dana Perino, to CNN. She says, quote, "The president looked at all options before signing legislation last weekend. He felt that the legislation passed by Congress was the best course of action. Terri Schiavo's case," the statement goes on to say, "is extraordinary and sad. As the president said yesterday, he believes that in a case such as this, the legislative branch and the executive branch should err on the side of life, which is what we did."

Note in that statement, Daryn, no criticism of the court system for the decisions made in recent days, but certainly the president said yesterday that he was watching the courts. He said yesterday that he certainly wanted the courts to get involved. But Mr. Bush also made clear, and White House officials are making clear to us today, that they do not believe there is anything else the president can do. And they say there are no plans to try any additional federal intervention -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Yes, right now the spotlight big time on his brother, Governor Jeb Bush, back in Tallahassee. Any indication that the president -- or any discussion publicly that the president has been in touch with his brother on this matter?

KING: He said yesterday he had not discussed next steps with his brother. He has, over the past several years, discussed this case publicly several times, and it is something he is quite familiar with, from his conversations with the brother. The White House officials make this distinction. They say the president and his brother, the governor, have discussed this case from time to time, but they say there has been no coordination about legal steps, or about any political steps, or about any tactical responses. They say the two have not talked about it in that way.

They say Mr. Bush decided to support that effort in Congress and get involved at the federal level, when his brother felt all of the state options were exhausted. Now, Governor Bush yesterday said there may be other avenues for him to get involved here, other executive powers at his disposal. But as of this time yesterday, the president said he had not discussed this with his brother. We will certainly ask the White House if there were any conversations last night or certainly on what could be a defining day today. KAGAN: All right. We'll be checking back with you. John King, live in Crawford, Texas, where President Bush is at his ranch. Once again within 22 minutes, we do expect to hear from Pinellas Circuit Court Judge George Greer about this final decision about whether the state of Florida can take custody of Terri Schiavo. Much more on that straight ahead. Right now, a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: We continue our developing story on Terri Schiavo. 19 minutes until -- within the 19 minutes, we expect to hear from Judge George Greer in Florida, on whether or not the state of Florida will be able to take custody of Terri Schiavo.

Meanwhile, the biggest development other than that this morning, the decision by the U.S. Supreme Court not to take this case and not to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube. With that, we've had a lot of reaction coming in this morning from both sides of the family. We just heard from President Bush, and here now from Senator majority leader Bill Frist. He put out this statement where he says, quote, "I'm saddened by the decision of the court to reject Terri Schiavo's case for life, despite a compelling case for the re- examination of the medical evidence. It is a sad day for her loving family, and for her innocent and voiceless daughter.

That woman, Terri Schiavo, right now in a hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida. Our Bob Franken has been standing by with the latest from there -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And one of the intriguing stories going on here is the presence, not far away, of agents from DCF, the Department of Children and Families. When Governor Bush yesterday got legal advice that DCF might be able to act without authority from the courts, they were nearby, but there was never a coordination with the police who are here about picking up Terri Schiavo, about taking over custody of her.

In addition to which, the court order came down, and there's been since then a number of people who have said on the side that favors the removal of the feeding tube, that the DCF agents should ignore the court order and come in and pick up Terri Schiavo.

Well, there could be a very interesting dilemma for the police who are protecting the property here. They are local and county police. They participate under the mandates of the county court. Their instructions would be, I'm told by a variety of police sources, to uphold that order. Theoretically, you could have a confrontation between state authorities and the police here.

Now, we were told that wouldn't happen, there would be some sort of communication and they would work things out. But there was no such communication. So claims that there was something pending like that are probably quite a bit melodramatic. But the police say that it would be a dilemma if, in fact, something like that happened.

KAGAN: Bob, one of the questions answered by Michael Schiavo's attorney that there's a lot of visitation taking place there. He says that Michael Schiavo has been at his wife's bedside, has been at his wife's bedside since the feeding tube was removed, and that other members of the Schindler family have been allowed, and I guess a list that's been approved by a judge, a number of people have been allowed to visit Terri Schiavo. Any indication of that from where you are?

FRANKEN: Yes, we know that's true. Now, Michael Schiavo has taken an entrance that's out of view of the news cameras, but by all accounts, including the Schindler's, he is there. And proof of that came the other day when he was inside and the Schindler's waited a long time before they were able to go inside, and they complained about it. They were being kept outside by Michael Schiavo's orders. He is the guardian, of course, in this case, because he did not want any sort of awkward incident while he was in the room.

But the Schindlers, we've seen them on television repeatedly going into to be with their daughter. So yes, there's been a constant flow of visitors to Terri Schiavo.

KAGAN: All right, Bob Franken in Pinellas Park, we'll be back to you in just a moment.

Right now, let's talk about the medical side of what Terri Schiavo faces right now.

Our medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, is here with me right now. Some of the defenders and the supporters of the family have given some pretty graphic descriptions of what they say Terri Schiavo looks like right now. There's no indication those people have been in to see Terri Schiavo.

Seven days, is the seventh day without a feeding tube. Any indication of what she is facing?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, she's about to begin her seventh day, Daryn. Of course it was Friday afternoon that that feeding tube was taken out. And doctors do know what people feel like and what goes on in the body when someone is -- when food and water is taken away at the end of life. And the reason why they know this is that some cancer patient, some patients with Lou Gehrig's Disease, diseases like that, choose to take out their own feeding tube. And so they are able to tell doctors how it felt.

And I have been speaking to doctors who specialize in what is called palliative care, end-of-life care. And they say what these patients say is for that first day, they do feel hunger, but that they don't feel hunger or thirst after, that they say it actually becomes as they describe it, a natural way to die, that your body makes ketones. It goes into ketosis, and those ketones end up becoming sort of like the body's own way of keeping itself alive for several days after the nutrition has been taken away, and that the body actually produces endorphins in that state so that they don't feel pain.

And of course it's important to remember that what most doctors have said about Terri Schiavo is that her cerebral cortex in her brain isn't working, so she wouldn't feel pain anyway. So that's what doctors who specialize in palliative care have to say about that.

Let's take a little look at physiologically what happens to someone when food and dehydration is withheld. Day one, the lips and skin lose moisture, and doctors in the hospice would give some moisture to the lips and the skin, to replace some of that moisture that gets lost. They could put on cream, or put on other kinds of things. Day three and four, the heart rate goes up and the blood pressure goes down. Day five through 10, which is where Terri Schiavo is right now, altered breathing rate, slight decrease in movement. And day 10 through death, people go into acute renal failure and eventually cardiac arrest.

And, Daryn, the important thing to remember, as I talk to these doctors who specialize, who are at the bedside everyday, they say it sounds so horrible to do this day, that they say every day of the week hospice workers do this, they help people do their lives this way, and it can be done with dignity, and it can be done without pain, and it is done without pain.

KAGAN: And two points here, first of all, there are angels across America that are working in hospices that are doing wonderful work, but it's also important to point out, we don't know what Terri Schiavo is feeling. She is not, unlike the people that you are describing, she's not able to communicate. So in the end, we really don't know if she's able to feel pain or able to feel any of this, which is what makes it such a huge debate. Some people say this is allowing her to die in dignity, some people actually considering this a form of murder.

COHEN: That's right. I mean, really there two things we don't know. Nobody, nobody in this world can know absolutely for sure what she is feeling, if she's feeling, if she's thinking, and also as journalists, we don't know what she looks like, we don't know what she's going through; we're not in that room. We saw Bob Franken outside of the hospice. I was outside of that hospice earlier this week. We're not in the room. We can't really say how she was doing, or how she's looking.

KAGAN: We are waiting, and there's another room we're focused on. That is a courtroom in Pinellas County, actually Pinellas circuit court Judge Judge Greer. He has said before noon today, which is about 13 minutes away -- Elizabeth, by the way, thank you for that report. Within the next 12 minutes, we are expected to get this final decision. The governor, Jeb Bush, has asked for permission from the state to take custody of Terri Schiavo. A decision is expected by noon. We are monitoring Judge Greer's court.

A lot more news ahead. Right now, another break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: The Supreme Court, that is where one of the latest developments in the Terri Schiavo case took place earlier today. The high court refusing to order the reinsertion of the feeding tube to Terri Schiavo in Pinellas Park, Florida. We're also standing by for Pinellas circuit court Judge George Greer to make his final decision on whether or not the state of Florida can go in and take custody of Terri Schiavo, and then once again go ahead and reorder the reinsertion of that feeding tube. We're keeping our eyes on that story. That decision was expected before noon today. As soon as there is a decision, you will hear it live here on CNN.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

KAGAN: Once again, keeping our eyes on the Terri Schiavo case, a lot of developments today, a recap and much more news ahead, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: We're standing by waiting to hear from Pinellas circuit court Judge George Greer. He had promised a ruling by noon Eastern on whether or not he would allow the state of Florida to take custody of Terri Schiavo. As soon as that decision is released, you're going to hear about it right here on CNN.

Meanwhile, the Schiavo case has featured mountains of legal paper, there's reams of expert legal testimony. There's also countless exchanges between her parents and her husband, also activists who have adopted their causes, yet as our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield explains, maybe nothing speaks more about the Terri Schiavo story than the videotapes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Just this once let's pause and ask one question. Would the Terri Schiavo case have reached this level of intensity without these images?

Well, why did Bill Frist, the Senate Majority Leader and a hear surgeon question the idea that Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state?

SEN. BILL FRIST, MAJORITY LEADER: My question based on a review of the video footage, which I spent an hour or so looking at last night in my office, she certainly seems to respond to visual stimuli.

GREENFIELD: Virginia Republican Senator George Allen, a layman, cited the same evidence.

SEN. GEORGE ALLEN (R), VIRGINIA: For a woman who when I observe her on videotapes clearly is conscious and has the ability to feel.

GREENFIELD: And today, in announcing attempts by a state government agency to intervene on Terri Schiavo's behalf, Florida Governor Jeb Bush cited the conclusions of a neurologist who, among other things, reviewed the videos.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action.

GREENFIELD (on camera): But what do these images, a few seconds pulled from hours of tapes nearly four years old, what do they tell us? Are they pieces of evidence that Terri Schiavo is responding to the outside world or do they in some fundamental sense mislead us?

(voice-over): University of Wisconsin law professor Alta Charo clearly thinks so.

PROFESSOR ALTA CHARO, UNIV. OF WISCONSIN LAW SCHOOL: Oh, I think it's a profound impact, not only on lay people, on politicians. I mean politicians are human beings. They look at these videotapes.

They find it emotionally impossible to believe this woman is really unconscious and without any hope of recovery. And, of course, they begin to wonder isn't there something we should be doing to step into the situation?

Sad to say most people simply don't understand enough medicine to understand how this condition is even possible. This kind of condition, permanent vegetative state, the reflexes of waking and sleeping, of the hands opening and closing, of the yawning, all of those are so similar to what we do when we're awake that we tend to project and believe that there is a consciousness there, as there would be for ourselves. It's just irresistible for humans to do this.

GREENFIELD: That is the conclusion that the Florida courts have consistently reached but it is not the conclusion reached by the doctors who were hired by Terri Schiavo's parents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This woman is not in a coma. This woman is not in a PVS state.

GREENFIELD: And this is what has given that videotape such potency. If there's any doubt at all, the argument goes, you must resolve it on behalf of life. Whatever the medical facts, it is not hard to understand why the average person looking at those images sees them as at least raising doubt.

(on camera): Big, sweeping questions surround this case, the role of the courts and legislatures, the reach of federal power, the proper way to determine when a life is genuinely over.

Thousands of words will be used trying to deal with these questions but in this case those few images may well carry more weight than all those thousands of words.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: It has been a fast-moving morning, indeed. And we're going to continue to stay with the Terri Schiavo story. You'll have all of the latest developments right on CNN.

But that's going to do it for me. I'm Daryn Kagan. I will see you right here tomorrow morning. Carol Lin is in for Wolf Blitzer at the top of the hour.

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