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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Schiavo's Family Makes Another Court Plea; Protesters Attempting to Bring Terri Water Arrested; Gov. Bush Under Pressure to Take Action
Aired March 25, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, time is running out for Terri Schiavo. Her father says she could die within hours. I'll be talking tonight with a congressman, a family doctor who says he's having second thoughts about his vote in favor of federal intervention in this case.
And failing grades. It's not only our students who are failing to make the grade in our schools. So are many of our teachers and administrators. Tonight, the shocking truth about the administrators and teachers who are simply lousy at their jobs.
And "Assault on the Middle Class," while corporate America is cutting retirement plans for American workers, members of Congress will enjoy retirement benefits far superior to any available to citizens they represent.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Terri Schiavo's parents tonight launched an emergency legal challenge in a Florida state court, trying to keep their daughter alive. That hearing in Clearwater, Florida, has just ended.
Randi Kaye listened to the deliberations in Clearwater and joins us now with the report -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, let me set the scene for you. Upstairs here in the 6th Judicial Circuit Court here in Clearwater, Florida, about 30 members of the media gathered around a speakerphone to listen to this emergency hearing. That is because it's Good Friday. The courts are closed. So that is how the hearing was held.
Judge George Greer was present. So were the attorneys for both sides. And David Gibbs, the attorney for the Schindlers, Terri Schiavo's parents, they -- he asserted that Terri Schiavo has had cognitive interaction with others. He also contends that Terri Schiavo has tried to vocalize, "I want to live."
He did -- he asked for a motion for immediate relief. He asked the court to recognize that there has been a significant change in Terri Schiavo's condition. He believes the evidence shows that Ms. Schiavo has changed her mind about wanting to die. Now, he is referring to information from attorney Barbara Weller, who represents the Schindlers in this case. She had visited with Terri in her hospice room. And she said that Terri had made a couple of verbal sounds, saying "Ah" and "Wa", and she said that that was in response to her saying, "Terri, this can't all be over if you just simply indicate that you want to live."
Now in response to all of that, George Felos, who is the attorney for Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, called the motion outrageous, saying that it should be denied. He said this is an outrageous abuse of the legal system. And he says the affidavits for both sides show absolutely nothing.
So in the end here, the judge today, Judge George Greer, who is the same judge, as a matter of fact, who last Friday had called for the feeding tube to be removed from Terri Schiavo, he said that he may rule as early as tonight. He may rule by noon tomorrow. He gave no indication, as we know, now entering the eighth day without that feeding tube, the last thing Terri Schiavo has is time.
Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: And as you say, Randi, time is of the essence in this case.
Terri Schiavo's father today declared that time is running out for his daughter and, in his, words she is now down to the last hours. Meanwhile, emotions among protesters outside Terri Schiavo's hospice rose.
John Zarrella is outside the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, and has our report -- John.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, well in fact you know now Terri Schiavo being about in the eighth day now without any hydration. It's the longest she has ever been without the feeding tube. In 2003 it was six days, now going into eight days coming up. And as her father said, she may be down to hours.
The protesters here on this Good Friday spent most of the time praying, but there were some arrests. Nine people were arrested today, including three children. Three children, two girls and one boy arrested. The boy was 10 years old, had come down here from North Carolina with his father. And he said that he wanted to come down here, through his father's words, to do this.
This is not the first time that protesters, of course, have been arrested. These are staged events. They are orchestrated, well- coordinated with police so that there's no violence and no confrontation between anyone there. The police know when they're going to do this. They attempt to bring water to Terri, and then they are arrested. The children are also brought into handcuffs, but that is policy of the Pinellas Park police here.
Now, the Schindlers, Bob and Mary Schindler, and Bobby, the brother, and Suzanne, the sister, have spent time going in to see Terri and have continued to say that her condition deteriorates with every passing hour and that it may be that she only has hours left.
And of course, the Schindlers are hoping against hope that the courts will intervene at some point, but time is quickly running out, and so far, Lou, as we all know, the courts have not been kind to the Schindlers' side of this case -- Lou.
DOBBS: John Zarrella, thank you very much, reporting from Pinellas Park, Florida.
Terri Schiavo's parents today also returned to a federal appellate court in Atlanta, in their battle to prevent their daughter from dying. They say Terri Schiavo's due process and religious rights have been violated.
Sara Dorsey reports from Atlanta on the latest federal court hearing -- Sara.
SARA DORSEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, I have in my hand the 50- page appeal filed by Bob and Mary Schindler, Terri Schiavo's parents. That came in this afternoon to judges here. Not the first time they're heard an appeal from these folks, but it is the newest one that came in today.
The Schindlers are really asking for the same thing, and that is for that feeding tube to be put back in while they exhaust their appeals process. There are about three main arguments the Schindlers are trying to make that they want the judges here to hear, and that is that they say Terri Schiavo's right to due process has been violated. They say there is a difference of opinion concerning what physical state that Terri Schiavo is in right now.
They also say her religious rights have been violated, because she is a Catholic. The Catholic Church prohibits the termination of an incapacitated individual's feeding to be taken out. And they say if Terri was able to talk, she would side with the church and would not want her feeding tube to be removed.
They also say under the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Rehab Act, Terri's rights that have been violated, basically saying she is discriminated against because she's disabled now. She has not been allowed and frankly isn't able to take part in this process.
The Schindlers say all of those things are grounds for an appeal.
However, there was a very similar appeal they put through this court on Wednesday. First a three-judge panel turned it down, then all -- then a 12-judge panel turned it down. From there they went to the Supreme Court. That is the same process that this particular appeal is going to have to take.
Now, not long ago we got a response from Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo's husband. His attorneys filed this, saying that they oppose this latest appeal. They say none of the claims are very new. The judges have heard all of these in some form already.
So now we're just waiting to hear exactly what this court is going to do. They have the option of not hearing this appeal at all, not even looking at it, but if they do look at it, it will go through that same process, three-judge panel and then on to all 12 judges, if necessary -- Lou.
DOBBS: Sara Dorsey from Atlanta, thank you.
Supporters of Terri Schiavo's parents today held a vigil outside Governor Bush's mansion in Tallahassee. The protesters want Governor Bush to intervene by executive order, but Governor Bush says he cannot go beyond his constitutional powers.
Ed Henry reports from Tallahassee -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, since Governor Bush is a Catholic, protesters are using the fact that this is Good Friday to pressure him to try to show mercy and do something, as you mentioned, to try to save Terri Schiavo's life.
And there was a very strong religious theme as protesters, as you mentioned, showed up at the governor's mansion, spent just about the whole morning there. They were praying. They were holding signs like "Don't be a Pontius Pilate." They also had signs saying, "Jeb, you shall not murder."
The protesters were led by the Reverend Patrick Mahoney, who is close to Terri Schiavo's parents, and he grew very agitated at one point when a worker emerged from a governor's mansion to water the plants on the governor's front lawn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. PATRICK MAHONEY, CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: Governor Bush, please act. If you see that, brothers and sisters. They're watering the plants at the governor's mansion while Terri is being dehydrated. Governor Bush, please act. We respect you, sir. Please act on behalf of Terri. If you care enough for the plants in your yard, will you not please care for Terri Schiavo?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: The governor was not at home during this protest. He has spent most of the day right behind me here in his office. Aides say that, while he was doing some other routine state business, he obviously spent most of the day focusing in on all the various legal options in the Schiavo case, what leverage might be left for him.
And aides said that Mr. Bush was very disappointed by the latest legal setbacks today, but in the words of this aide, the governor is a man of deep and abiding faith who is still confident, still hopeful that there will be some solution through the appeals process without him having to act with some sort of executive order, as you mentioned, Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, straightforwardly, could Governor Bush, with executive order, intervene in this case in behalf of Terri Schiavo and force the reinsertment of the feeding tube? HENRY: The bottom line is that we've spoken to legal analysts who say he does have the authority to go in and to have the state take custody of Terri Schiavo and put that feeding tube back in.
Of course Judge Greer and others would try to send sheriffs in to take custody of Terri Schiavo back out of whatever hospital she was taken to from the hospice. But the bottom line is, conservative activists want the governor to do it because they think in that interim period while she was taken away and taken into custody by the state, they could get that feeding tube in and could possibly save her life.
But the bottom line is, is that, based on what the governor had said last night in that brief interview with a local television station, he doesn't seem to have the stomach for that kind of a move. It would seem there would be a heavy bit of criticism, even though there are legal analysts saying he could have the power to do it. It could look like a police state, basically, and it's clear that based on what Governor Bush said last night, he doesn't want to do that -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry from Tallahassee. Thank you.
All branches of our government at both federal and state levels have been involved in the Terri Schiavo case. Everyone claims to be acting in Terri Schiavo's best interests, but politics are driving both sides of this debate. Senior political analyst Bill Schneider has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): When Congress and the president intervened in the Terri Schiavo case last weekend, they insisted their motives were not political.
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: It has nothing to do with politics and it's disgusting to even suggest it.
SCHNEIDER: Their opponents beg to differ.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not about values, this is not about religion. It is pandering for political gain.
SCHNEIDER: But in the latest CBS News poll, nearly three quarters of Americans believe Congress acted for political reasons. Florida Governor Jeb Bush is not supposed to have political motives. He can't run for governor again and he says he's not running for president. But at least one headline suggests there's politics involved. Governor Bush even has critics on the right, who claim his failure to do more is driven by politics.
BROTHER PAUL O'CONNELL, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPOKESMAN: He still has the power to take Terri into protective custody. Now, he may not want to do that because the public image and how that would look.
SCHNEIDER: Courts claim to be non-political, but by disagreeing with the governor, the state legislature, Congress and President Bush, judges have made themselves a juicy political target.
REV. PATRICK MAHONEY, CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: One of the issues that is being -- that is driving it, outside of saving Terri, is this. Judicial activism.
SCHNEIDER: Religious activists who claim to be driven wholly by moral concern sound awfully political.
RANDALL TERRY, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPOKESMAN: But I promise you, if she dies, there is going to be hell to pay.
SCHNEIDER: The American public has a loud and clear message. Keep politics out of this. Democrats have, by and large, stood aside, but that's brought them criticism from liberals who claim they're being timid and there is no evidence it's done Democrats any good politically. After all...
REP. JIM MORAN (D), VIRGINIA: And it's about politics and we are politicians.
SCHNEIDER: Has any good come out of this wrenching personal tragedy? Perhaps this: half of Americans say that as a result of the Schiavo case, they have discussed with friends or family members what they would want done if they were in the same situation. That's something.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Lou, let me put this lesson in terms perhaps appropriate to this religious season. In this case, it's a sin to be political -- Lou.
DOBBS: But as you report, politics driving both sides of this debate.
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
DOBBS: And at the bottom, it is a question of ethics and morality, normally private affairs that are now wrenched in a very public display.
SCHNEIDER: That's right.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, thank you very much.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DOBBS: Later here I'll be talking with a leading congressman, a family doctor who is now having second thoughts about his decision to vote to support federal intervention in this tragic case.
Up next here, fighter jets for sale. The United States rewarding two strategic allies in the global war against radical Islamist terrorism. However, is that a wise decision? That report is coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Free trade at work and a new victory for a foreign defense contractor in the battle to win lucrative weapons contracts from the U.S. Defense Department. The British firm BAE Systems will build nearly 500 lightweight howitzers for the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps. The deal worth nearly a billion dollars.
Earlier this month, BAE Systems decided to buy United Defense Industries, the maker of the U.S. Army's Bradley fighting vehicle. Bradleys, of course, widely used in the war in Iraq.
BAE Systems calls itself one of North America's foremost national security companies. But the fact is the company is based in Britain and is Europe's largest defense contractor.
There was a notable success for the defense industry today. The United States agreeing to sell F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan. The United States also offering to sell F-16s now to India.
Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush's decision to sell two dozen F-16s to Pakistan is part of the strategy to reward Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf for his help with the war on terrorism, U.S. officials say. The F-16s will help Pakistan with one of its immediate military goals: modernizing its fighter fleet.
In 1990, Congress blocked the sale of F-16s to Islamabad because of Pakistan's nuclear program. Now, despite U.S. concern about Pakistani nuclear scientist AQ Khan, the Bush administration will tell Congress the sale will not destabilize the subcontinent.
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Relations between India and Pakistan have never been better. That's point one.
Point two, stability comes from a sense of security. And to the extent that we can contribute to Pakistan's sense of security and India's sense of security, that will contribute to regional stability.
STARR: But Congress still has the final say.
JOEL JOHNSON, AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES ASSOCIATION: I think they will certainly have some hearings, want some convincing.
STARR: Arch rival India wants to buy 125 new fighters itself and may disagree. The U.S. is now watching closely to see if India selects the F-16s or turns to Russia, France or Sweden, which have all expressed an interest in that $10 billion deal.
The proposed $1.5 billion Pakistani sale will have a huge economic benefit in President Bush's home state of Texas. It will help keep Lockheed Martin's Ft. Worth production line up beyond this October, when it will begin shutting down if there are no new orders. In the last five months, the U.S. has also sold Pakistan's military new surveillance aircraft, anti-bunker weapons and modern communications gear, all that can be used in remote border areas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: And Lou, Pentagon officials say that the Bush administration's decision is indeed all about Pakistan's security in the war on terrorism, in the battle again terrorists and the hunt for Osama bin Laden -- Lou.
DOBBS: Let's talk about the India side of this deal, Barbara, very quickly. As I understand it, 12 of the aircraft would be built in this country. In point of fact, in Ft. Worth, Texas. But then the remainder of that contract would be built in India, with the exception of the avionics and structural components necessary for those avionics.
In other words, we would be outsourcing and off-shoring the F-16 to India.
STARR: Well, India has, indeed, not yet made a selection. Russia, Sweden and France are also...
DOBBS: Right.
STARR: ... competing for that sale. But if they do, it's not unusual these days for U.S. military contractors specifically to try and offer some production deal to the foreign country that may be buying.
It sweetens the pot. They hope that it sweetens the pot enough that they are selected for the deal and that they don't risk too much U.S. jobs. So if the F-16 is selected by India, it wouldn't be surprising, but it will all, of course, be subject to review by the Bush administration and approval by Congress -- Lou.
DOBBS: Review and, in point of fact, those offsets we're hearing precious little from the U.S. Congress on what would be an outright transfer of technology no matter how it's sliced. Barbara Starr, as always, thank you very much, reporting from the Pentagon.
Coming up next here, one of the best retirement plans in this country belongs to, well, you guessed it, members of the U.S. Congress. You simply won't believe the perks they receive while our nation's working middle class retirement plans are under assault from nearly every direction. That special report is next here.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The middle class in this country is under assault from, among other things, the export of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets, rising health care costs and drastic cuts in retirement plans. While hard-working American families are struggling to save for their retirements, their elected representatives in Washington enjoy what could only be considered extensive retirement benefits.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A gracious Senator Tom Daschle bid farewell in November after 26 years in Congress. He had a lot to be thankful for, including a hefty congressional pension. Daschle's golden parachute could top more than $5 million over his lifetime. Not unusual, according to the National Taxpayers Union.
PETE SEPP, NATIONAL TAXPAYERS UNION: While many average workers are wondering if they'll have anything to retire on given the nature of the Social Security system, members of Congress have wrapped themselves in a very warm retirement security blanket. That's hypocrisy in action.
SYLVESTER: Retired lawmakers received an annual pension of $50,000 a year in 2002. They also have a generous 401(k)-type savings plan, plus Social Security, giving them three sources of retirement income. Meanwhile, most corporations have done away with pension plans, leaving 80 percent of all private sector Americans with only Social Security and any 401(k) savings.
DALLAS SALISBURY, EMPLOYEE BENEFIT RESEARCH INSTITUTE: Roughly a third of today's retires, their only source of income is Social Security. And for nearly two-thirds of retirees, the majority of their income comes from Social Security.
SYLVESTER: With out-of-control government spending and the health of the Social Security system in doubt, critics say it's time to cut the congressional fat.
GARY RUSKIN, CONGRESSIONAL ACCOUNTABILITY PROJECT: And it's time for members of Congress to cut their pay and perks and pensions before they talk about these benefit cuts for the rest of us.
SYLVESTER: Lawmakers have justified their salary and retirement benefits by arguing they could earn a lot more in the private sector. Many do just that, after leaving office, like Billy Tauzin, who left Congress for a reported $2 million job representing the pharmaceutical industry, while still being eligible for a large monthly check from Uncle Sam.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Most working Americans can't look to a lucrative second career, and most don't have a generous retirement safety net. In 1974, there were about 100,000 corporate pension plans. Today there are about 26,000 -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.
We want to hear from you on this critically important issue. Do you think Congress should be receiving retirement benefits commensurate with just about equal to those of the citizens they represent, yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
Coming up next, a congressman who is also a medical doctor who says he's deeply conflicted about the Terri Schiavo case. He is certainly not alone in this country. And he is deeply conflicted, he says, about his decision to give the family another chance to have their case heard. He's our guest.
And why teachers and school administrators are failing many of our nation's students.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: More now on our top story tonight. A Florida judge has declared he will rule before noon tomorrow on an emergency appeal filed by the parents of Terri Schiavo. The Florida woman has now been without food and water for seven days.
My guest tonight is a medical doctor. He is also a member of the U.S. Congress, who says Congress should not have intervened in this case. Nonetheless, he voted to give her family the chance they asked for to bring that case to federal court.
Joining me now is Congressman Vic Snyder, a Democrat from the state of Arkansas.
It is good to have you with us.
REP. VIC SNYDER, (D) ARKANSAS: Thank you, Lou. It's good to be with you.
DOBBS: You are amongst those Congressmen and women who were rushed back to take a vote. Of those who did vote, do you think you were alone in your, if not second thoughts, remaining conflicts about that vote?
SNYDER: I would describe it as first thoughts. From the very beginning when we first got notice, I don't know, Saturday night there was going to be a vote, I was just torn about it.
I think one of the best speeches on the floor that night was Brian Baird, who is a psychologist and has a lot of background working with neurology cases. And when he made a speech, he said I don't know what him going to do tonight. And he talked eloquently about the split.
I think it was a tough vote for a lot of people.
DOBBS: A tough vote. Did you have any instinct that being rushed back for this vote at all that you shouldn't be voting at all? 170-some odd Congressmen did not vote.
SNYDER: Did not make it back.
We started getting notice Saturday night that we might be in session the next day, but the first notices came across did not even tell us what it was going to be about. And I actually kind of had to stop and think, now what are we going to be voting on?
The next day I went to church about midday, the text of a bill came across, I head to the airport, catch a 4:00 plane, land at 9:30 in D.C., watched C-SPAN for 2 hours and go over and vote. There were no meetings, no hearing, no opportunity to exchange views.
DOBBS: Why do you think that was the case?
SNYDER: I think it was probably because of the fact that the feeding tube had been disconnected Friday and the leadership, when they decided to act, decided they needed to act expeditiously.
I suspect we would have had more members come back if they would have given us another day or two and could have had some more reasoned discussion if we would have perhaps postponed a vote until Tuesday morning so we would have had at least one full work day to let the American public express their will with their elected representative. But that's the way it occurred. And it was a very rushed job.
DOBBS: Those Congressmen who are also doctors have received a great deal of criticism from some quarters by critics who say doctors, of all people, while in the U.S. Congress should have known better. Obviously there's a prejudicial view as to what should be the outcome of this case amongst those critics.
But was there any effort on the part to draw from the U.S. Congress for its advice those members, like yourself, who are doctors?
SNYDER: All I can say is that we had such a short period of time -- my phone certainly wasn't ringing saying, hey, I'm on a plane, we've got to vote for 2 hours, what are you thinking? I mean, it went so rapidly. It seemed to me, we had doctors and medical people on both sides of the issue.
DOBBS: Across this country, unfortunately families -- family members have to deal with these issues, private and obviously very personal basis with their doctors and the caregivers for loved ones all the time. What is your sense -- how would you vote on this issue today? What is tonight, as you've had first thoughts, and as we all, when we are honest about it, turning up new thoughts it seems almost every day on this case, what do you think the appropriate, the right, the moral, the ethical, the proper outcome here is? Can you make that judgment tonight?
SNYDER: Well, I mean -- there's two conflicting things for me, and maybe it's my bias as a human being and my bias as a family doctor. There is a huge part of me that believe these end of life decisions are so important and so difficult that government needs to stay out of them as much as possible. It needs to be the patient, family and medical professionals making these decisions together without government interference.
This is the peculiar thing about the Schiavo situation. You had both parents and siblings united in a decades-long legal battle with the husband. And they were pleading for government to get involved in the case. And I think -- I called this a TV vote.
We sit and watch Larry King and see the interviews with the parents and the Schiavos, and we decide that they're both good people, and great folks that care about Terri, and I think a lot of the members came down on the side, all right, I'll give the parents -- perhaps it's an emotional thing rather than a good legal analysis -- I'll give the parents another chance to make their case about the constitutionality of the Florida decisions before a federal court. That's the side I came down on.
I don't know if it was the right decision or not. But I think a lot of Americans are now saying, wait a minute, maybe we don't want government involved in these cases. And I think that is very important and a very good general principle. I think this, I believe, was just a peculiar situation that doesn't happen very often.
DOBBS: Thank goodness.
SNYDER: It's such a lengthy dispute. Yes, thank goodness.
DOBBS: Congressman, we thank you for being here. Congressman Vic Snyder.
SNYDER: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Turning to our extensive reporting on the many problems in our nation's schools are dealing with and face every day. A new study finds many school administrators are earning useless degrees just so they can earn more money. And many teachers are teaching subjects about which they know little if anything. And who pays the price? Our students.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Arthur Levine, the president of the Teachers' College at Columbia University says administrators in our country's public schools are highly educated, but little prepared for the job.
A four-year study just released found school administrators were taking courses to rack up raises and promotions, but the courses they are taking don't prepare them for the realities of running a public school. The study also found universities were offering quickie degrees to school administrators to make easy money.
ARTHUR LEVINE, PRES. COLUMBIA UNIV. TEACHERS COLLEGE: These guys aren't being educated very well. For the most part, they're taking programs that are incoherent and consist of random grab bag of courses. The admission standards are so low that practically anybody with a credit card that isn't maxed out can enter the programs.
PILGRIM: In many cases professors teaching the school administration courses had never even worked in a school. And when it comes to public school teachers, an alarming number are teaching subjects in which they don't have a degree, so-called out of field teaching in English, Math and Science is particularly prevalent in high poverty areas.
(on camera): An American Enterprise Institute study found 44 percent of middle school students take at least one class with a teacher who does not even have a minor in the subject being taught.
FREDERICK HESS, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INST: Particularly say in urban areas or rural communities, we have a lot of trouble hiring teachers in certain fields. Certainly science, mathematics, children -- teaching children with special needs, we often have difficulty finding teachers. And so you wind up with teachers trained in one area often times teaching students in areas that they're really not prepared for.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, this comes at a difficult time in the nation's system because of growing population, immigration, school enrollment has been on a steady climb in this country for more than a decade, for example, up nearly 20 percent for high schools. So qualified administration and teacher talent is sorely needed -- Lou.
DOBBS: The fact that administrators are going to schools to get degrees that are irrelevant, basically to get more pay, the fact we have teachers not teaching subjects, what is the NEA position on all of this? What are we doing about it? What are we doing about it?
PILGRIM: Some of the data comes from the NEA. It's a widely recognized problem.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim. Thank you.
Arizona's House has approved a bill that would making English the required state. It would also required that all state government businesses be conducted in English. Seven years ago, Arizona Supreme Court declared a similar bill unconstitutional. This new measure, which its supporters say is constitutional, goes before the Arizona Senate for a vote.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts on the escalating immigration crisis in the country. Fred Witt in Port St. Lucie, Florida -- excuse me -- "I was at my friendly Super Wal-Mart center today and noticed a large American flag by the main entrance with a same sized Mexican flag next to it. I wonder when the Chinese flag will be put up to honor all the Chinese imports."
And Carol Nesbitt in San Diego, California, "the only partnership I want the U.S. to have with Mr. Fox is helping him repatriate the 15 million illegal aliens from Mexico."
We will continue in one moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: This country's intelligence agencies have launched a massive recruiting drive for more spies, for more analysts and more linguists to help in the fight against radical Islamist terrorists.
The spy agencies are trying to rebuild their intelligence capabilities after years of budget cuts.
National security correspondent David Ensor has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies are on the biggest hiring binge in 50 years, with an appeal to patriotism and touch of Hollywood glamour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, TV COMMERCIAL)
JENNIFER GARNER, STAR OF "ALIAS": It's a lifelong opportunity to make a difference by protecting America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: They are dipping into the American melting pot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, TV COMMERCIAL)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I analyze and decipher security threats. I am an intelligence analyst for today's FBI.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: At a national security agency job fair in Georgia, the nation's eavesdropper and code maker is looking for a few good linguists, computer scientists, mathematicians, to spy on foreigners and crack codes.
COL. ROB CARR, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY: See the world, and make a difference.
ROSIE MARTIN, TRANSLATOR: Yes, I speak six languages, or I'm hoping to. I love figuring out codes and things like that.
ENSOR: Professional translator Rosie Martin of Michigan says she speaks French, German, Spanish, Russian, and Arabic.
MARTIN: Well, it's the biggest intelligence agency, and I like the fields it has to offer in the benefits it has for my languages.
ENSOR: The NSA wants to hire 1,500 people per year for the next five years.
CIA is trying to increase its number of spies and analysts by 50 percent, and staff speaking mission-critical languages by 50 percent as well. Their current staff numbers are classified.
The other intelligence agencies at this Washington job fair are all looking to grow in the post-9/11 world, all competing for the best talent, but they can afford to be picky. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, we get basically almost 1,000 applications every day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.
ENSOR: And while the agencies want diversity in languages, they are extremely cautious. Iranian-American student Sanaz Sayfi might seem an ideal candidate, with her perfect Farsi.
SANAZ SAYFI, IRANIAN-AMERICAN STUDENT: Most of the intelligence jobs wants you to be only American, and I'm a dual citizen, so...
ENSOR (on camera): What's your other citizenship?
SAYFI: I'm Iranian.
ENSOR: So do you speak Farsi?
SAYFI: Fluently.
ENSOR: They are looking for that.
SAYFI: Yes, I thought that they would. But I guess that you should only be -- you should be an American who speaks Farsi, and not an Iranian who speaks Farsi.
ENSOR: And you wouldn't want to give up that second citizenship?
SAYFI: No.
ENSOR: No.
(voice-over): As for Rosie Martin of Michigan, will she get a job at the NSA? It's looking good.
JOHN TAFLAN, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY: Speaks six languages now, wants to learn more languages, says she learns languages easily.
ENSOR: That's exactly what they want.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And in "HEROES" tonight, the inspiring story of a 24- year-old soldier, severely wounded in Iraq. Army Staff Sergeant Ryan Kelly has retired from the military, but he is still serving his country and his fellow soldiers.
Casey Wian has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It will take more than a piece of shrapnel to keep Ryan Kelly grounded. RYAN KELLY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): I didn't (UNINTELLIGIBLE) run for about two and a half months. To be thinking, at that point, I'd be flying helicopters realistically someday was, was -- wasn't very easy to grasp. But now that I'm doing it, it's just -- it's really been a fulfillment of a childhood dream.
WIAN: Kelly had another dream, though, a career in the military, like his father. Kelly was on his way to a conference on rebuilding schools in Ramadi, Iraq, in July 2003 when his convoy was ambushed.
KELLY: I lost my leg just below the knee. The shrapnel actually came in and -- probably roughly right about here, and hit me. The first time I looked down, I didn't actually see my leg. It was still hanging by threads.
WIAN: Kelly's wife, Lindsay (ph), was stationed in Baghdad. By the time she got to him, his leg had been amputated, his military aspirations crushed. But through 13 months of therapy at Walter Reed, he didn't stop serving. He became a volunteer with the Wounded Warrior project.
KELLY: You know, you feel a lot of guilt from having to get out while your unit's still in combat. And the project gave me the sense of still being part of the team. And, you know, to this day, I still wake up feeling like I'm contributing to soldiers and their families.
WIAN: Kelly is tireless, lobbying Capitol Hill for a new disability insurance program, which would award $50,000 to severely disabled soldiers.
He's also pursuing an aeronautics degree and learning to fly helicopters. And at only 24, it's clear that Ryan Kelly is just beginning a new chapter in his life.
KELLY: Trying to make sure the system that I faced when I was hurt is better for the guys that are going to get hurt next week has really been some of the best therapy you could ever ask for, because you really -- you're not just sitting there and going through the system, you're trying to improve it while you're going through it.
WIAN: Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And we wish Staff Sergeant Kelly all the very best.
In California today, 31 members of our armed services became citizens of the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this time, it's my privilege to declare each one of you a citizen of the greatest country the world has ever seen, the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP) DOBBS: Nearly 10,000 people took part in the monthly naturalization ceremony for the active service members. This was an especially emotional and memorable day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You take it very seriously when you wear a uniform. I mean, it changes you when you're actually in the services. It was emotional, I suppose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since I was little, I wanted to join the Army and then also become a citizen, so I get the full package.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And our congratulations to all who join us as citizens of this great country. Welcome.
A reminder now to vote in our poll tonight. Do you think Congress should receive retirement benefits commensurate with those of the citizens they represent? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Next, I'll be talking about everything from the Terri Schiavo case to the Minutemen project with three of journalism's very best.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now from Washington, three of the country's top political journalists, Roger Simon, "U.S. News and World Report," Karen Tumulty, "TIME" magazine, Ron Brownstein, "The Los Angeles Times."
Good to have you with us.
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: Hi, Lou.
DOBBS: Let's start with the Terri Schiavo case, as tragic as it is. Do you believe that President Bush's approve rating has plummeted really as a result of the intervention of Congress and the president in this case?
And I'll ask you Ron first.
RON BROWNSTEIN, "L.A. TIMES": I think it has been one factor, Lou. You know, the American people are obviously conflicted about what is happening to this woman. But they are pretty clear on one point, they have not wanted Washington to become involved in this case. The polling over the course of this past week has been extraordinary. And one poll by CBS this week, about 70 percent of Republicans, conservatives, evangelical Christians, and people who attend church at least once a week or more, said they did not want Washington involved. So, in that sense he sailing (ph). It's a very clear verdict in public opinion, and inevitably, I think that has taken some toll.
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Although I question, Ron, whether this is a lasting bit of damage to the president and to the Republicans, or whether this is something people will have almost, you know, forgotten about once it's over with. What we see on this is one side intensely passionate about it, and I think that as a result, you know, the right to life community is probably going to carry Terri Schiavo with them for the rest of their lives in intensified activism. But I'm not so sure that all these people who are unsettled by what they saw Congress do are really going to be worried about it, say next year, when the next election rolls around.
BROWNSTEIN: Karen, I don't disagree. I mean, I think the history of these intense controversies is they fade as specific issues long before we go to the polls in 2006, certainly in 2008. But I do think that what we're seeing is the continued hardening of the lines, the sort of the realignment of American politics around lines of values rather than interests. And do think that this is something that -- like one more piece in a mosaic contributes to a sort of political climate in which people tend to side with the parties more by how they view these issues rather, than economic issues.
SIMON: But where Congress went wrong is that they wasted their pander. In the case of Bill Frist, he wasted his grovel. They pandered to a constituency that doesn't exist. They thought that there was a huge constituency out there who -- Christian conservative constituency, who wanted the feeding tube reinserted into Terri Schiavo. They voted, and then they read polls indicating most people want Congress not to interfere. Every parent in America can have two feelings. One the agony of making the decision on whether to keep a child alive by artificial means, and two, not wanting a Bill Frist or Tom DeLay or Congress or George Bush to take that decision away from you.
DOBBS: Obviously, the intensity of this -- the emotional impact, it is so difficult. It transcends politics and no matter the both sides of this debate on Terri Schiavo are driven by politics. It is, as you say, Ron, a collision of interests and values, but perhaps we're learning also this week that these values are critically important and do serve the broader interests of the nation to have a discussion about it. And for all of us to reflect, and not to be quite so quick to make very tough judgments.
Let me turn, if I may, to immigration. President Fox, Prime Minister Martin and the president meeting on what was, ostensibly, to be immigration reform. But that was changed to border security and prosperity. And the president ended up referring to the minutemen in Arizona who will be patrolling with the Border Patrol as vigilantes. A political price there, Roger?
SIMON: Well, I think so. I think President Bush has very little chance of getting his guest worker plan through Congress this year, and I think he's sending signals. When the president of the United States turns to the president of Mexico and says I'm not a member of the legislative branch, I think this was his way of saying, don't expect to get a guest worker bill out of Congress this year. But I think he's still paying lip service to those people in the Republican Party who are saying that we need to court the Hispanic-American vote and we can't afford to anger these people.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, the president at this point, Lou, has preferences. What he doesn't have is an actual legislative proposal. Interesting development on Capitol Hill, last year the principal bipartisanship effort to get something started here was, Chuck Hagel and Tom Daschle. This year it's Ted Kennedy and John McCain, who are working together, hoping to come out with something in the next few weeks, that would -- they believe -- have support from both the Chamber of Commerce and AFL-CIO, which ordinary is a pretty potent combination on Capital Hill. But the problem they face is that you have, in the Republican Party, an enormous division about this. And a president who when push comes to shove usually is reluctant to get into too direct a confrontation with his base.
TUMULTY: And also...
DOBBS: Yes, Karen -- I'm sorry, go ahead, Karen.
TUMULTY: Also, by the way -- also, by the way, an emphasis I think on the security question on the border that we had not really heard talked about as much as we've heard it talked about in the last few weeks, including by Vice President Cheney.
DOBBS: Yes, Vice President Cheney, let's turn to that, because it's quite remarkable. He was quoted as saying, "We've got several million people in this country who are illegally -- who are here illegally. We don't know who they are. We don't know where they are. We don't know what they're doing." And then goes on to suggest that the solution is to pass the president's guest worker program. This administration's views, at least statements, in support of the policies they ostensibly want to put into place, it's rather bizarre, isn't it?
SIMON: As Karen indicated, where the guest worker bill I think is going to fail is on the subject of national security. It's simply too easy to argue against this bill based on homeland security. And saying this is not a time to make the borders more porous. And it's very hard to argue that a bill making guest workers -- giving them legal status will not encourage more illegal immigration into the United States.
DOBBS: Karen, just the politics aside, the reality is in a global war against terror, knowing that people are trying to destroy this country to have our northern and our southern border absolutely open, and to know that the Homeland Security Department is more about public relations when it comes to assuring border security than reality, isn't this the greatest risk, not the political one?
TUMULTY: Oh, that's right. And you re-read the vice president's statement about having all these people, not knowing who they are or where they are, and you next have to ask, well, whose fault is that?
DOBBS: And the answer is rather clear. And the answer is in Washington, D.C., and, of course, ourselves for tolerating such -- such a thing.
We thank you very much, and we appreciate you being with us. Roger, Karen, Ron, thank you.
BROWNSTEIN: Thank you, Lou.
SIMON: Thanks, Lou.
TUMULTY: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, the results of our poll tonight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, the results of our poll, 90 percent of you -- 90 percent, say Congress should receive retirement benefits commensurate or equal with those of the citizens they represent. Ten percent of you say, no, they should not.
I don't know whether you want them lower or higher, but we thank you for voting.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here, Monday, when we begin a new series of special reports on the escalating immigration crisis that faces this country. We hope you'll be with us. For all us here, have a very pleasant Easter weekend. Good night from New York.
"ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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Aired March 25, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, time is running out for Terri Schiavo. Her father says she could die within hours. I'll be talking tonight with a congressman, a family doctor who says he's having second thoughts about his vote in favor of federal intervention in this case.
And failing grades. It's not only our students who are failing to make the grade in our schools. So are many of our teachers and administrators. Tonight, the shocking truth about the administrators and teachers who are simply lousy at their jobs.
And "Assault on the Middle Class," while corporate America is cutting retirement plans for American workers, members of Congress will enjoy retirement benefits far superior to any available to citizens they represent.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Terri Schiavo's parents tonight launched an emergency legal challenge in a Florida state court, trying to keep their daughter alive. That hearing in Clearwater, Florida, has just ended.
Randi Kaye listened to the deliberations in Clearwater and joins us now with the report -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, let me set the scene for you. Upstairs here in the 6th Judicial Circuit Court here in Clearwater, Florida, about 30 members of the media gathered around a speakerphone to listen to this emergency hearing. That is because it's Good Friday. The courts are closed. So that is how the hearing was held.
Judge George Greer was present. So were the attorneys for both sides. And David Gibbs, the attorney for the Schindlers, Terri Schiavo's parents, they -- he asserted that Terri Schiavo has had cognitive interaction with others. He also contends that Terri Schiavo has tried to vocalize, "I want to live."
He did -- he asked for a motion for immediate relief. He asked the court to recognize that there has been a significant change in Terri Schiavo's condition. He believes the evidence shows that Ms. Schiavo has changed her mind about wanting to die. Now, he is referring to information from attorney Barbara Weller, who represents the Schindlers in this case. She had visited with Terri in her hospice room. And she said that Terri had made a couple of verbal sounds, saying "Ah" and "Wa", and she said that that was in response to her saying, "Terri, this can't all be over if you just simply indicate that you want to live."
Now in response to all of that, George Felos, who is the attorney for Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, called the motion outrageous, saying that it should be denied. He said this is an outrageous abuse of the legal system. And he says the affidavits for both sides show absolutely nothing.
So in the end here, the judge today, Judge George Greer, who is the same judge, as a matter of fact, who last Friday had called for the feeding tube to be removed from Terri Schiavo, he said that he may rule as early as tonight. He may rule by noon tomorrow. He gave no indication, as we know, now entering the eighth day without that feeding tube, the last thing Terri Schiavo has is time.
Lou, back to you.
DOBBS: And as you say, Randi, time is of the essence in this case.
Terri Schiavo's father today declared that time is running out for his daughter and, in his, words she is now down to the last hours. Meanwhile, emotions among protesters outside Terri Schiavo's hospice rose.
John Zarrella is outside the hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, and has our report -- John.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, well in fact you know now Terri Schiavo being about in the eighth day now without any hydration. It's the longest she has ever been without the feeding tube. In 2003 it was six days, now going into eight days coming up. And as her father said, she may be down to hours.
The protesters here on this Good Friday spent most of the time praying, but there were some arrests. Nine people were arrested today, including three children. Three children, two girls and one boy arrested. The boy was 10 years old, had come down here from North Carolina with his father. And he said that he wanted to come down here, through his father's words, to do this.
This is not the first time that protesters, of course, have been arrested. These are staged events. They are orchestrated, well- coordinated with police so that there's no violence and no confrontation between anyone there. The police know when they're going to do this. They attempt to bring water to Terri, and then they are arrested. The children are also brought into handcuffs, but that is policy of the Pinellas Park police here.
Now, the Schindlers, Bob and Mary Schindler, and Bobby, the brother, and Suzanne, the sister, have spent time going in to see Terri and have continued to say that her condition deteriorates with every passing hour and that it may be that she only has hours left.
And of course, the Schindlers are hoping against hope that the courts will intervene at some point, but time is quickly running out, and so far, Lou, as we all know, the courts have not been kind to the Schindlers' side of this case -- Lou.
DOBBS: John Zarrella, thank you very much, reporting from Pinellas Park, Florida.
Terri Schiavo's parents today also returned to a federal appellate court in Atlanta, in their battle to prevent their daughter from dying. They say Terri Schiavo's due process and religious rights have been violated.
Sara Dorsey reports from Atlanta on the latest federal court hearing -- Sara.
SARA DORSEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, I have in my hand the 50- page appeal filed by Bob and Mary Schindler, Terri Schiavo's parents. That came in this afternoon to judges here. Not the first time they're heard an appeal from these folks, but it is the newest one that came in today.
The Schindlers are really asking for the same thing, and that is for that feeding tube to be put back in while they exhaust their appeals process. There are about three main arguments the Schindlers are trying to make that they want the judges here to hear, and that is that they say Terri Schiavo's right to due process has been violated. They say there is a difference of opinion concerning what physical state that Terri Schiavo is in right now.
They also say her religious rights have been violated, because she is a Catholic. The Catholic Church prohibits the termination of an incapacitated individual's feeding to be taken out. And they say if Terri was able to talk, she would side with the church and would not want her feeding tube to be removed.
They also say under the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Rehab Act, Terri's rights that have been violated, basically saying she is discriminated against because she's disabled now. She has not been allowed and frankly isn't able to take part in this process.
The Schindlers say all of those things are grounds for an appeal.
However, there was a very similar appeal they put through this court on Wednesday. First a three-judge panel turned it down, then all -- then a 12-judge panel turned it down. From there they went to the Supreme Court. That is the same process that this particular appeal is going to have to take.
Now, not long ago we got a response from Michael Schiavo, Terri Schiavo's husband. His attorneys filed this, saying that they oppose this latest appeal. They say none of the claims are very new. The judges have heard all of these in some form already.
So now we're just waiting to hear exactly what this court is going to do. They have the option of not hearing this appeal at all, not even looking at it, but if they do look at it, it will go through that same process, three-judge panel and then on to all 12 judges, if necessary -- Lou.
DOBBS: Sara Dorsey from Atlanta, thank you.
Supporters of Terri Schiavo's parents today held a vigil outside Governor Bush's mansion in Tallahassee. The protesters want Governor Bush to intervene by executive order, but Governor Bush says he cannot go beyond his constitutional powers.
Ed Henry reports from Tallahassee -- Ed.
ED HENRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, since Governor Bush is a Catholic, protesters are using the fact that this is Good Friday to pressure him to try to show mercy and do something, as you mentioned, to try to save Terri Schiavo's life.
And there was a very strong religious theme as protesters, as you mentioned, showed up at the governor's mansion, spent just about the whole morning there. They were praying. They were holding signs like "Don't be a Pontius Pilate." They also had signs saying, "Jeb, you shall not murder."
The protesters were led by the Reverend Patrick Mahoney, who is close to Terri Schiavo's parents, and he grew very agitated at one point when a worker emerged from a governor's mansion to water the plants on the governor's front lawn.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. PATRICK MAHONEY, CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: Governor Bush, please act. If you see that, brothers and sisters. They're watering the plants at the governor's mansion while Terri is being dehydrated. Governor Bush, please act. We respect you, sir. Please act on behalf of Terri. If you care enough for the plants in your yard, will you not please care for Terri Schiavo?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: The governor was not at home during this protest. He has spent most of the day right behind me here in his office. Aides say that, while he was doing some other routine state business, he obviously spent most of the day focusing in on all the various legal options in the Schiavo case, what leverage might be left for him.
And aides said that Mr. Bush was very disappointed by the latest legal setbacks today, but in the words of this aide, the governor is a man of deep and abiding faith who is still confident, still hopeful that there will be some solution through the appeals process without him having to act with some sort of executive order, as you mentioned, Lou.
DOBBS: Ed, straightforwardly, could Governor Bush, with executive order, intervene in this case in behalf of Terri Schiavo and force the reinsertment of the feeding tube? HENRY: The bottom line is that we've spoken to legal analysts who say he does have the authority to go in and to have the state take custody of Terri Schiavo and put that feeding tube back in.
Of course Judge Greer and others would try to send sheriffs in to take custody of Terri Schiavo back out of whatever hospital she was taken to from the hospice. But the bottom line is, conservative activists want the governor to do it because they think in that interim period while she was taken away and taken into custody by the state, they could get that feeding tube in and could possibly save her life.
But the bottom line is, is that, based on what the governor had said last night in that brief interview with a local television station, he doesn't seem to have the stomach for that kind of a move. It would seem there would be a heavy bit of criticism, even though there are legal analysts saying he could have the power to do it. It could look like a police state, basically, and it's clear that based on what Governor Bush said last night, he doesn't want to do that -- Lou.
DOBBS: Ed Henry from Tallahassee. Thank you.
All branches of our government at both federal and state levels have been involved in the Terri Schiavo case. Everyone claims to be acting in Terri Schiavo's best interests, but politics are driving both sides of this debate. Senior political analyst Bill Schneider has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): When Congress and the president intervened in the Terri Schiavo case last weekend, they insisted their motives were not political.
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: It has nothing to do with politics and it's disgusting to even suggest it.
SCHNEIDER: Their opponents beg to differ.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not about values, this is not about religion. It is pandering for political gain.
SCHNEIDER: But in the latest CBS News poll, nearly three quarters of Americans believe Congress acted for political reasons. Florida Governor Jeb Bush is not supposed to have political motives. He can't run for governor again and he says he's not running for president. But at least one headline suggests there's politics involved. Governor Bush even has critics on the right, who claim his failure to do more is driven by politics.
BROTHER PAUL O'CONNELL, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPOKESMAN: He still has the power to take Terri into protective custody. Now, he may not want to do that because the public image and how that would look.
SCHNEIDER: Courts claim to be non-political, but by disagreeing with the governor, the state legislature, Congress and President Bush, judges have made themselves a juicy political target.
REV. PATRICK MAHONEY, CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: One of the issues that is being -- that is driving it, outside of saving Terri, is this. Judicial activism.
SCHNEIDER: Religious activists who claim to be driven wholly by moral concern sound awfully political.
RANDALL TERRY, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPOKESMAN: But I promise you, if she dies, there is going to be hell to pay.
SCHNEIDER: The American public has a loud and clear message. Keep politics out of this. Democrats have, by and large, stood aside, but that's brought them criticism from liberals who claim they're being timid and there is no evidence it's done Democrats any good politically. After all...
REP. JIM MORAN (D), VIRGINIA: And it's about politics and we are politicians.
SCHNEIDER: Has any good come out of this wrenching personal tragedy? Perhaps this: half of Americans say that as a result of the Schiavo case, they have discussed with friends or family members what they would want done if they were in the same situation. That's something.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Lou, let me put this lesson in terms perhaps appropriate to this religious season. In this case, it's a sin to be political -- Lou.
DOBBS: But as you report, politics driving both sides of this debate.
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
DOBBS: And at the bottom, it is a question of ethics and morality, normally private affairs that are now wrenched in a very public display.
SCHNEIDER: That's right.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, thank you very much.
SCHNEIDER: Sure.
DOBBS: Later here I'll be talking with a leading congressman, a family doctor who is now having second thoughts about his decision to vote to support federal intervention in this tragic case.
Up next here, fighter jets for sale. The United States rewarding two strategic allies in the global war against radical Islamist terrorism. However, is that a wise decision? That report is coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Free trade at work and a new victory for a foreign defense contractor in the battle to win lucrative weapons contracts from the U.S. Defense Department. The British firm BAE Systems will build nearly 500 lightweight howitzers for the U.S. Army and the U.S. Marine Corps. The deal worth nearly a billion dollars.
Earlier this month, BAE Systems decided to buy United Defense Industries, the maker of the U.S. Army's Bradley fighting vehicle. Bradleys, of course, widely used in the war in Iraq.
BAE Systems calls itself one of North America's foremost national security companies. But the fact is the company is based in Britain and is Europe's largest defense contractor.
There was a notable success for the defense industry today. The United States agreeing to sell F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan. The United States also offering to sell F-16s now to India.
Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush's decision to sell two dozen F-16s to Pakistan is part of the strategy to reward Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf for his help with the war on terrorism, U.S. officials say. The F-16s will help Pakistan with one of its immediate military goals: modernizing its fighter fleet.
In 1990, Congress blocked the sale of F-16s to Islamabad because of Pakistan's nuclear program. Now, despite U.S. concern about Pakistani nuclear scientist AQ Khan, the Bush administration will tell Congress the sale will not destabilize the subcontinent.
ADAM ERELI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Relations between India and Pakistan have never been better. That's point one.
Point two, stability comes from a sense of security. And to the extent that we can contribute to Pakistan's sense of security and India's sense of security, that will contribute to regional stability.
STARR: But Congress still has the final say.
JOEL JOHNSON, AEROSPACE INDUSTRIES ASSOCIATION: I think they will certainly have some hearings, want some convincing.
STARR: Arch rival India wants to buy 125 new fighters itself and may disagree. The U.S. is now watching closely to see if India selects the F-16s or turns to Russia, France or Sweden, which have all expressed an interest in that $10 billion deal.
The proposed $1.5 billion Pakistani sale will have a huge economic benefit in President Bush's home state of Texas. It will help keep Lockheed Martin's Ft. Worth production line up beyond this October, when it will begin shutting down if there are no new orders. In the last five months, the U.S. has also sold Pakistan's military new surveillance aircraft, anti-bunker weapons and modern communications gear, all that can be used in remote border areas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
STARR: And Lou, Pentagon officials say that the Bush administration's decision is indeed all about Pakistan's security in the war on terrorism, in the battle again terrorists and the hunt for Osama bin Laden -- Lou.
DOBBS: Let's talk about the India side of this deal, Barbara, very quickly. As I understand it, 12 of the aircraft would be built in this country. In point of fact, in Ft. Worth, Texas. But then the remainder of that contract would be built in India, with the exception of the avionics and structural components necessary for those avionics.
In other words, we would be outsourcing and off-shoring the F-16 to India.
STARR: Well, India has, indeed, not yet made a selection. Russia, Sweden and France are also...
DOBBS: Right.
STARR: ... competing for that sale. But if they do, it's not unusual these days for U.S. military contractors specifically to try and offer some production deal to the foreign country that may be buying.
It sweetens the pot. They hope that it sweetens the pot enough that they are selected for the deal and that they don't risk too much U.S. jobs. So if the F-16 is selected by India, it wouldn't be surprising, but it will all, of course, be subject to review by the Bush administration and approval by Congress -- Lou.
DOBBS: Review and, in point of fact, those offsets we're hearing precious little from the U.S. Congress on what would be an outright transfer of technology no matter how it's sliced. Barbara Starr, as always, thank you very much, reporting from the Pentagon.
Coming up next here, one of the best retirement plans in this country belongs to, well, you guessed it, members of the U.S. Congress. You simply won't believe the perks they receive while our nation's working middle class retirement plans are under assault from nearly every direction. That special report is next here.
Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The middle class in this country is under assault from, among other things, the export of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets, rising health care costs and drastic cuts in retirement plans. While hard-working American families are struggling to save for their retirements, their elected representatives in Washington enjoy what could only be considered extensive retirement benefits.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A gracious Senator Tom Daschle bid farewell in November after 26 years in Congress. He had a lot to be thankful for, including a hefty congressional pension. Daschle's golden parachute could top more than $5 million over his lifetime. Not unusual, according to the National Taxpayers Union.
PETE SEPP, NATIONAL TAXPAYERS UNION: While many average workers are wondering if they'll have anything to retire on given the nature of the Social Security system, members of Congress have wrapped themselves in a very warm retirement security blanket. That's hypocrisy in action.
SYLVESTER: Retired lawmakers received an annual pension of $50,000 a year in 2002. They also have a generous 401(k)-type savings plan, plus Social Security, giving them three sources of retirement income. Meanwhile, most corporations have done away with pension plans, leaving 80 percent of all private sector Americans with only Social Security and any 401(k) savings.
DALLAS SALISBURY, EMPLOYEE BENEFIT RESEARCH INSTITUTE: Roughly a third of today's retires, their only source of income is Social Security. And for nearly two-thirds of retirees, the majority of their income comes from Social Security.
SYLVESTER: With out-of-control government spending and the health of the Social Security system in doubt, critics say it's time to cut the congressional fat.
GARY RUSKIN, CONGRESSIONAL ACCOUNTABILITY PROJECT: And it's time for members of Congress to cut their pay and perks and pensions before they talk about these benefit cuts for the rest of us.
SYLVESTER: Lawmakers have justified their salary and retirement benefits by arguing they could earn a lot more in the private sector. Many do just that, after leaving office, like Billy Tauzin, who left Congress for a reported $2 million job representing the pharmaceutical industry, while still being eligible for a large monthly check from Uncle Sam.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Most working Americans can't look to a lucrative second career, and most don't have a generous retirement safety net. In 1974, there were about 100,000 corporate pension plans. Today there are about 26,000 -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.
We want to hear from you on this critically important issue. Do you think Congress should be receiving retirement benefits commensurate with just about equal to those of the citizens they represent, yes or no? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later here in the broadcast.
Coming up next, a congressman who is also a medical doctor who says he's deeply conflicted about the Terri Schiavo case. He is certainly not alone in this country. And he is deeply conflicted, he says, about his decision to give the family another chance to have their case heard. He's our guest.
And why teachers and school administrators are failing many of our nation's students.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: More now on our top story tonight. A Florida judge has declared he will rule before noon tomorrow on an emergency appeal filed by the parents of Terri Schiavo. The Florida woman has now been without food and water for seven days.
My guest tonight is a medical doctor. He is also a member of the U.S. Congress, who says Congress should not have intervened in this case. Nonetheless, he voted to give her family the chance they asked for to bring that case to federal court.
Joining me now is Congressman Vic Snyder, a Democrat from the state of Arkansas.
It is good to have you with us.
REP. VIC SNYDER, (D) ARKANSAS: Thank you, Lou. It's good to be with you.
DOBBS: You are amongst those Congressmen and women who were rushed back to take a vote. Of those who did vote, do you think you were alone in your, if not second thoughts, remaining conflicts about that vote?
SNYDER: I would describe it as first thoughts. From the very beginning when we first got notice, I don't know, Saturday night there was going to be a vote, I was just torn about it.
I think one of the best speeches on the floor that night was Brian Baird, who is a psychologist and has a lot of background working with neurology cases. And when he made a speech, he said I don't know what him going to do tonight. And he talked eloquently about the split.
I think it was a tough vote for a lot of people.
DOBBS: A tough vote. Did you have any instinct that being rushed back for this vote at all that you shouldn't be voting at all? 170-some odd Congressmen did not vote.
SNYDER: Did not make it back.
We started getting notice Saturday night that we might be in session the next day, but the first notices came across did not even tell us what it was going to be about. And I actually kind of had to stop and think, now what are we going to be voting on?
The next day I went to church about midday, the text of a bill came across, I head to the airport, catch a 4:00 plane, land at 9:30 in D.C., watched C-SPAN for 2 hours and go over and vote. There were no meetings, no hearing, no opportunity to exchange views.
DOBBS: Why do you think that was the case?
SNYDER: I think it was probably because of the fact that the feeding tube had been disconnected Friday and the leadership, when they decided to act, decided they needed to act expeditiously.
I suspect we would have had more members come back if they would have given us another day or two and could have had some more reasoned discussion if we would have perhaps postponed a vote until Tuesday morning so we would have had at least one full work day to let the American public express their will with their elected representative. But that's the way it occurred. And it was a very rushed job.
DOBBS: Those Congressmen who are also doctors have received a great deal of criticism from some quarters by critics who say doctors, of all people, while in the U.S. Congress should have known better. Obviously there's a prejudicial view as to what should be the outcome of this case amongst those critics.
But was there any effort on the part to draw from the U.S. Congress for its advice those members, like yourself, who are doctors?
SNYDER: All I can say is that we had such a short period of time -- my phone certainly wasn't ringing saying, hey, I'm on a plane, we've got to vote for 2 hours, what are you thinking? I mean, it went so rapidly. It seemed to me, we had doctors and medical people on both sides of the issue.
DOBBS: Across this country, unfortunately families -- family members have to deal with these issues, private and obviously very personal basis with their doctors and the caregivers for loved ones all the time. What is your sense -- how would you vote on this issue today? What is tonight, as you've had first thoughts, and as we all, when we are honest about it, turning up new thoughts it seems almost every day on this case, what do you think the appropriate, the right, the moral, the ethical, the proper outcome here is? Can you make that judgment tonight?
SNYDER: Well, I mean -- there's two conflicting things for me, and maybe it's my bias as a human being and my bias as a family doctor. There is a huge part of me that believe these end of life decisions are so important and so difficult that government needs to stay out of them as much as possible. It needs to be the patient, family and medical professionals making these decisions together without government interference.
This is the peculiar thing about the Schiavo situation. You had both parents and siblings united in a decades-long legal battle with the husband. And they were pleading for government to get involved in the case. And I think -- I called this a TV vote.
We sit and watch Larry King and see the interviews with the parents and the Schiavos, and we decide that they're both good people, and great folks that care about Terri, and I think a lot of the members came down on the side, all right, I'll give the parents -- perhaps it's an emotional thing rather than a good legal analysis -- I'll give the parents another chance to make their case about the constitutionality of the Florida decisions before a federal court. That's the side I came down on.
I don't know if it was the right decision or not. But I think a lot of Americans are now saying, wait a minute, maybe we don't want government involved in these cases. And I think that is very important and a very good general principle. I think this, I believe, was just a peculiar situation that doesn't happen very often.
DOBBS: Thank goodness.
SNYDER: It's such a lengthy dispute. Yes, thank goodness.
DOBBS: Congressman, we thank you for being here. Congressman Vic Snyder.
SNYDER: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Turning to our extensive reporting on the many problems in our nation's schools are dealing with and face every day. A new study finds many school administrators are earning useless degrees just so they can earn more money. And many teachers are teaching subjects about which they know little if anything. And who pays the price? Our students.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Arthur Levine, the president of the Teachers' College at Columbia University says administrators in our country's public schools are highly educated, but little prepared for the job.
A four-year study just released found school administrators were taking courses to rack up raises and promotions, but the courses they are taking don't prepare them for the realities of running a public school. The study also found universities were offering quickie degrees to school administrators to make easy money.
ARTHUR LEVINE, PRES. COLUMBIA UNIV. TEACHERS COLLEGE: These guys aren't being educated very well. For the most part, they're taking programs that are incoherent and consist of random grab bag of courses. The admission standards are so low that practically anybody with a credit card that isn't maxed out can enter the programs.
PILGRIM: In many cases professors teaching the school administration courses had never even worked in a school. And when it comes to public school teachers, an alarming number are teaching subjects in which they don't have a degree, so-called out of field teaching in English, Math and Science is particularly prevalent in high poverty areas.
(on camera): An American Enterprise Institute study found 44 percent of middle school students take at least one class with a teacher who does not even have a minor in the subject being taught.
FREDERICK HESS, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INST: Particularly say in urban areas or rural communities, we have a lot of trouble hiring teachers in certain fields. Certainly science, mathematics, children -- teaching children with special needs, we often have difficulty finding teachers. And so you wind up with teachers trained in one area often times teaching students in areas that they're really not prepared for.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, this comes at a difficult time in the nation's system because of growing population, immigration, school enrollment has been on a steady climb in this country for more than a decade, for example, up nearly 20 percent for high schools. So qualified administration and teacher talent is sorely needed -- Lou.
DOBBS: The fact that administrators are going to schools to get degrees that are irrelevant, basically to get more pay, the fact we have teachers not teaching subjects, what is the NEA position on all of this? What are we doing about it? What are we doing about it?
PILGRIM: Some of the data comes from the NEA. It's a widely recognized problem.
DOBBS: Thank you very much, Kitty Pilgrim. Thank you.
Arizona's House has approved a bill that would making English the required state. It would also required that all state government businesses be conducted in English. Seven years ago, Arizona Supreme Court declared a similar bill unconstitutional. This new measure, which its supporters say is constitutional, goes before the Arizona Senate for a vote.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts on the escalating immigration crisis in the country. Fred Witt in Port St. Lucie, Florida -- excuse me -- "I was at my friendly Super Wal-Mart center today and noticed a large American flag by the main entrance with a same sized Mexican flag next to it. I wonder when the Chinese flag will be put up to honor all the Chinese imports."
And Carol Nesbitt in San Diego, California, "the only partnership I want the U.S. to have with Mr. Fox is helping him repatriate the 15 million illegal aliens from Mexico."
We will continue in one moment. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: This country's intelligence agencies have launched a massive recruiting drive for more spies, for more analysts and more linguists to help in the fight against radical Islamist terrorists.
The spy agencies are trying to rebuild their intelligence capabilities after years of budget cuts.
National security correspondent David Ensor has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies are on the biggest hiring binge in 50 years, with an appeal to patriotism and touch of Hollywood glamour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, TV COMMERCIAL)
JENNIFER GARNER, STAR OF "ALIAS": It's a lifelong opportunity to make a difference by protecting America.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: They are dipping into the American melting pot.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, TV COMMERCIAL)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I analyze and decipher security threats. I am an intelligence analyst for today's FBI.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: At a national security agency job fair in Georgia, the nation's eavesdropper and code maker is looking for a few good linguists, computer scientists, mathematicians, to spy on foreigners and crack codes.
COL. ROB CARR, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY: See the world, and make a difference.
ROSIE MARTIN, TRANSLATOR: Yes, I speak six languages, or I'm hoping to. I love figuring out codes and things like that.
ENSOR: Professional translator Rosie Martin of Michigan says she speaks French, German, Spanish, Russian, and Arabic.
MARTIN: Well, it's the biggest intelligence agency, and I like the fields it has to offer in the benefits it has for my languages.
ENSOR: The NSA wants to hire 1,500 people per year for the next five years.
CIA is trying to increase its number of spies and analysts by 50 percent, and staff speaking mission-critical languages by 50 percent as well. Their current staff numbers are classified.
The other intelligence agencies at this Washington job fair are all looking to grow in the post-9/11 world, all competing for the best talent, but they can afford to be picky. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, we get basically almost 1,000 applications every day.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.
ENSOR: And while the agencies want diversity in languages, they are extremely cautious. Iranian-American student Sanaz Sayfi might seem an ideal candidate, with her perfect Farsi.
SANAZ SAYFI, IRANIAN-AMERICAN STUDENT: Most of the intelligence jobs wants you to be only American, and I'm a dual citizen, so...
ENSOR (on camera): What's your other citizenship?
SAYFI: I'm Iranian.
ENSOR: So do you speak Farsi?
SAYFI: Fluently.
ENSOR: They are looking for that.
SAYFI: Yes, I thought that they would. But I guess that you should only be -- you should be an American who speaks Farsi, and not an Iranian who speaks Farsi.
ENSOR: And you wouldn't want to give up that second citizenship?
SAYFI: No.
ENSOR: No.
(voice-over): As for Rosie Martin of Michigan, will she get a job at the NSA? It's looking good.
JOHN TAFLAN, NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY: Speaks six languages now, wants to learn more languages, says she learns languages easily.
ENSOR: That's exactly what they want.
David Ensor, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And in "HEROES" tonight, the inspiring story of a 24- year-old soldier, severely wounded in Iraq. Army Staff Sergeant Ryan Kelly has retired from the military, but he is still serving his country and his fellow soldiers.
Casey Wian has his story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It will take more than a piece of shrapnel to keep Ryan Kelly grounded. RYAN KELLY, U.S. ARMY (RET.): I didn't (UNINTELLIGIBLE) run for about two and a half months. To be thinking, at that point, I'd be flying helicopters realistically someday was, was -- wasn't very easy to grasp. But now that I'm doing it, it's just -- it's really been a fulfillment of a childhood dream.
WIAN: Kelly had another dream, though, a career in the military, like his father. Kelly was on his way to a conference on rebuilding schools in Ramadi, Iraq, in July 2003 when his convoy was ambushed.
KELLY: I lost my leg just below the knee. The shrapnel actually came in and -- probably roughly right about here, and hit me. The first time I looked down, I didn't actually see my leg. It was still hanging by threads.
WIAN: Kelly's wife, Lindsay (ph), was stationed in Baghdad. By the time she got to him, his leg had been amputated, his military aspirations crushed. But through 13 months of therapy at Walter Reed, he didn't stop serving. He became a volunteer with the Wounded Warrior project.
KELLY: You know, you feel a lot of guilt from having to get out while your unit's still in combat. And the project gave me the sense of still being part of the team. And, you know, to this day, I still wake up feeling like I'm contributing to soldiers and their families.
WIAN: Kelly is tireless, lobbying Capitol Hill for a new disability insurance program, which would award $50,000 to severely disabled soldiers.
He's also pursuing an aeronautics degree and learning to fly helicopters. And at only 24, it's clear that Ryan Kelly is just beginning a new chapter in his life.
KELLY: Trying to make sure the system that I faced when I was hurt is better for the guys that are going to get hurt next week has really been some of the best therapy you could ever ask for, because you really -- you're not just sitting there and going through the system, you're trying to improve it while you're going through it.
WIAN: Casey Wian, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And we wish Staff Sergeant Kelly all the very best.
In California today, 31 members of our armed services became citizens of the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this time, it's my privilege to declare each one of you a citizen of the greatest country the world has ever seen, the United States of America.
(END VIDEO CLIP) DOBBS: Nearly 10,000 people took part in the monthly naturalization ceremony for the active service members. This was an especially emotional and memorable day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You take it very seriously when you wear a uniform. I mean, it changes you when you're actually in the services. It was emotional, I suppose.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since I was little, I wanted to join the Army and then also become a citizen, so I get the full package.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: And our congratulations to all who join us as citizens of this great country. Welcome.
A reminder now to vote in our poll tonight. Do you think Congress should receive retirement benefits commensurate with those of the citizens they represent? Yes or no? Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Next, I'll be talking about everything from the Terri Schiavo case to the Minutemen project with three of journalism's very best.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Joining me now from Washington, three of the country's top political journalists, Roger Simon, "U.S. News and World Report," Karen Tumulty, "TIME" magazine, Ron Brownstein, "The Los Angeles Times."
Good to have you with us.
ROGER SIMON, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT: Hi, Lou.
DOBBS: Let's start with the Terri Schiavo case, as tragic as it is. Do you believe that President Bush's approve rating has plummeted really as a result of the intervention of Congress and the president in this case?
And I'll ask you Ron first.
RON BROWNSTEIN, "L.A. TIMES": I think it has been one factor, Lou. You know, the American people are obviously conflicted about what is happening to this woman. But they are pretty clear on one point, they have not wanted Washington to become involved in this case. The polling over the course of this past week has been extraordinary. And one poll by CBS this week, about 70 percent of Republicans, conservatives, evangelical Christians, and people who attend church at least once a week or more, said they did not want Washington involved. So, in that sense he sailing (ph). It's a very clear verdict in public opinion, and inevitably, I think that has taken some toll.
KAREN TUMULTY, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Although I question, Ron, whether this is a lasting bit of damage to the president and to the Republicans, or whether this is something people will have almost, you know, forgotten about once it's over with. What we see on this is one side intensely passionate about it, and I think that as a result, you know, the right to life community is probably going to carry Terri Schiavo with them for the rest of their lives in intensified activism. But I'm not so sure that all these people who are unsettled by what they saw Congress do are really going to be worried about it, say next year, when the next election rolls around.
BROWNSTEIN: Karen, I don't disagree. I mean, I think the history of these intense controversies is they fade as specific issues long before we go to the polls in 2006, certainly in 2008. But I do think that what we're seeing is the continued hardening of the lines, the sort of the realignment of American politics around lines of values rather than interests. And do think that this is something that -- like one more piece in a mosaic contributes to a sort of political climate in which people tend to side with the parties more by how they view these issues rather, than economic issues.
SIMON: But where Congress went wrong is that they wasted their pander. In the case of Bill Frist, he wasted his grovel. They pandered to a constituency that doesn't exist. They thought that there was a huge constituency out there who -- Christian conservative constituency, who wanted the feeding tube reinserted into Terri Schiavo. They voted, and then they read polls indicating most people want Congress not to interfere. Every parent in America can have two feelings. One the agony of making the decision on whether to keep a child alive by artificial means, and two, not wanting a Bill Frist or Tom DeLay or Congress or George Bush to take that decision away from you.
DOBBS: Obviously, the intensity of this -- the emotional impact, it is so difficult. It transcends politics and no matter the both sides of this debate on Terri Schiavo are driven by politics. It is, as you say, Ron, a collision of interests and values, but perhaps we're learning also this week that these values are critically important and do serve the broader interests of the nation to have a discussion about it. And for all of us to reflect, and not to be quite so quick to make very tough judgments.
Let me turn, if I may, to immigration. President Fox, Prime Minister Martin and the president meeting on what was, ostensibly, to be immigration reform. But that was changed to border security and prosperity. And the president ended up referring to the minutemen in Arizona who will be patrolling with the Border Patrol as vigilantes. A political price there, Roger?
SIMON: Well, I think so. I think President Bush has very little chance of getting his guest worker plan through Congress this year, and I think he's sending signals. When the president of the United States turns to the president of Mexico and says I'm not a member of the legislative branch, I think this was his way of saying, don't expect to get a guest worker bill out of Congress this year. But I think he's still paying lip service to those people in the Republican Party who are saying that we need to court the Hispanic-American vote and we can't afford to anger these people.
BROWNSTEIN: Well, the president at this point, Lou, has preferences. What he doesn't have is an actual legislative proposal. Interesting development on Capitol Hill, last year the principal bipartisanship effort to get something started here was, Chuck Hagel and Tom Daschle. This year it's Ted Kennedy and John McCain, who are working together, hoping to come out with something in the next few weeks, that would -- they believe -- have support from both the Chamber of Commerce and AFL-CIO, which ordinary is a pretty potent combination on Capital Hill. But the problem they face is that you have, in the Republican Party, an enormous division about this. And a president who when push comes to shove usually is reluctant to get into too direct a confrontation with his base.
TUMULTY: And also...
DOBBS: Yes, Karen -- I'm sorry, go ahead, Karen.
TUMULTY: Also, by the way -- also, by the way, an emphasis I think on the security question on the border that we had not really heard talked about as much as we've heard it talked about in the last few weeks, including by Vice President Cheney.
DOBBS: Yes, Vice President Cheney, let's turn to that, because it's quite remarkable. He was quoted as saying, "We've got several million people in this country who are illegally -- who are here illegally. We don't know who they are. We don't know where they are. We don't know what they're doing." And then goes on to suggest that the solution is to pass the president's guest worker program. This administration's views, at least statements, in support of the policies they ostensibly want to put into place, it's rather bizarre, isn't it?
SIMON: As Karen indicated, where the guest worker bill I think is going to fail is on the subject of national security. It's simply too easy to argue against this bill based on homeland security. And saying this is not a time to make the borders more porous. And it's very hard to argue that a bill making guest workers -- giving them legal status will not encourage more illegal immigration into the United States.
DOBBS: Karen, just the politics aside, the reality is in a global war against terror, knowing that people are trying to destroy this country to have our northern and our southern border absolutely open, and to know that the Homeland Security Department is more about public relations when it comes to assuring border security than reality, isn't this the greatest risk, not the political one?
TUMULTY: Oh, that's right. And you re-read the vice president's statement about having all these people, not knowing who they are or where they are, and you next have to ask, well, whose fault is that?
DOBBS: And the answer is rather clear. And the answer is in Washington, D.C., and, of course, ourselves for tolerating such -- such a thing.
We thank you very much, and we appreciate you being with us. Roger, Karen, Ron, thank you.
BROWNSTEIN: Thank you, Lou.
SIMON: Thanks, Lou.
TUMULTY: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead here, the results of our poll tonight. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, the results of our poll, 90 percent of you -- 90 percent, say Congress should receive retirement benefits commensurate or equal with those of the citizens they represent. Ten percent of you say, no, they should not.
I don't know whether you want them lower or higher, but we thank you for voting.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here, Monday, when we begin a new series of special reports on the escalating immigration crisis that faces this country. We hope you'll be with us. For all us here, have a very pleasant Easter weekend. Good night from New York.
"ANDERSON COOPER 360" is next.
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