Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Live Saturday
Press Conference with George Felos; Analysis of Terri Schiavo Case
Aired March 26, 2005 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As you know, Judge George Greer turned down the emergency motion by the family earlier today. He was with the 6th Judicial Circuit Court; he turned down the motion for immediate relief. The family had requested that Terri Schiavo get some type of intravenous fluid over this Easter weekend, something to carry her through it while they pursued some other legal battles. The attorney wants time for Terri to be examined by doctors; he also wants to prove that she has a will to live. As you know, Michael Schiavo has made the decision to remove the feeding tube. Because he says his wife would not like to live this way.
The judge has agreed with that. His ruling comes over some comments by Barbara Weller, an attorney for the family. She had visited with Terri Schiavo, and said that in asking Terri Schiavo whether or not she wants to live, Terri Schiavo had expressed some interest in wanting to live. That she had made some sounds, some ah and some wa which Barbara Weller took as the beginning of trying to say "I want to live."
Well the judge said that was not the case, he said that it was more a similar to if you were to touch your hand to hot stove and you pulled back he called it stimulious response, he said that was the case more because Barbara Weller had been holder Terri Schiavo's hand and her sort of cupping her and he said that Terri Schiavo was simply responding to that touch.
He said the affidavits regarding those verbal comments or sounds came too late, and that Barbara Weller was not even present at the hearing, the emergency hearing yesterday, and not there to tell the world, as he said. Once again we're here outside George Felos' office. We're still waiting for him. We do know that the family, the Schindler's, Bob and Mary Schindler have said they will appeal the judge's latest decision, Judge George Greer's decision to the Florida Supreme Court. They have given up all federal appeals, so that is expected to be filed this afternoon, and as we wait here for George Felos to come down and say some comments -- Tony.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR, CNN SATURDAY: That's interesting, Randi, just to go through the history of this, at least at this point, there is no plan to appeal this to the federal court, to the entire Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals, no plans for that?
KAYE: No plan at all for that. They had said earlier this morning that they were done with federal appeals. This family on both sides has been through quite a bit. They will appeal, though, this afternoon, they have said, to the Florida Supreme Court. HARRIS: OK, Randi Kay in Dunedin, Florida. And Randi, the moment you see Attorney Felos, just give us a heads-up.
KAYE: Will do.
HARRIS: OK, thanks Randi. Let's get you to Pinellas Park, Florida, the hospice where Terri Schiavo is being cared for now. And our John Zarrella is standing by. John.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Tony. Well just a little while ago we heard from Bobby Schindler, who came out here after having going into see his sister and he basically said that for all of those who support that Terri should be kept off and allowed to die, they should see my sister, is the way he put it.
They should go in there and see how she looks today, basically, a reference that she is really, really deteriorating. That was all he said, a very short statement. He then left and came back inside to the room they have here not far from where our position is. Then just a few moments ago, the family received a delivery of 100 red roses for Terri Schiavo.
HARRIS: John, let's go back to Dunedin, Florida and George Felos.
GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: My client asked me to give a brief statement this afternoon, because many of you have heard different accounts of Mrs. Schiavo's condition. I believe the parents and siblings and some of their reporters have described Mrs. Schiavo as having her lips bleeding or her skin peeling, or being in discomfort. That is simply not the truth. I was just down at hospice. I spent about 20 minutes with Mrs. Schiavo.
She is calm, she's peaceful, she's resting comfortably, her lips are not chapped, they're not bleeding, her skin is -- her skin's not peeling. Frankly, when I saw her, and it's the first time I've seen her since the artificial life support was removed eight days ago, she looked beautiful. In all the years I've seen Mrs. Schiavo, I've never seen such a look of peace and beauty upon her. So that's one thing that I wanted to mention.
The other is, while I was down at the hospice facility, there was a request by the parents' spiritual adviser to administer communion on Mrs. Schiavo today, and that request was refused, and I want to explain exactly why, so there is absolutely no misinterpretation here. The court issued an order the weak before artificial feeding was removed, which provided that Mrs. Schiavo receive last rites and the sacrament of communion the day her feeding tube was removed. That did occur, and the court also ordered that she may receive the sacrament one other occasion prior to her death, and when that occurs, the sacrament would be administered by the hospice priest and the parents' spiritual adviser may be present should he choose at that time.
My client will scrupulously follow the court order and the additional sacrament of communion, which was authorized and ordered by the court, will be administered in exactly the manner that the court ordered. I also wanted to comment upon the statement I've heard reported in the press today from the attorney for Mr. And Mrs. Schindler, stating, in essence, that the legal fight and struggle is over, that they don't intend on filing any further motions or court documents. I'm very happy to hear that. I think that's the right thing to do at this point.
As you mentioned a couple days ago, if there's anything that I think Mrs. Schiavo would want is not only to die with dignity and peace, but to also have the country at peace over this matter. So as we are approaching Easter, I think Terri would want all of us to reflect on the impermanence of life and ask ourselves the questions, what's the purpose of my life? And how can I best fulfill that? And how can I be of service to others? So again I hope that if there's anything that may -- one of the things that may come out of this perhaps is a period of inward reflection after all that outer attention. That's the only thing I have to say, and I'll be happy to take any questions.
QUESTION: It's been said that actually they no longer plan to file more federal appeals, but are in fact planning this afternoon to file with the State Supreme Court.
FELOS: Well, that's not what I heard. I don't know exactly what proceeding they're going to be appealing to the State Supreme Court. I think that it's fair to say, if you look at the position of the court system, the courts -- the courts are saying not, of course, that they won't look at any relief filed, but I think any fair observer of the situation would say the legal struggle is over here, and I would hope the parents acknowledge that.
QUESTION: You want she received last rites and communion. How did she...
FELOS: On March 18th, the day the feeding tube was removed, the sacrament of communion was administered through her feeding tube according to the court order.
QUESTION: Do you see any legal avenue at this point that the governor may try and take at the 11th hour?
FELOS: No, I don't, and I think there's a real perceptible shift in public opinion here. I think the politicians have backed off this case. I think the politicians here realize that they made an erroneous judgment as what might be in their interests, and in that regard, on behalf of my client, I want to thank the citizens of the state of Florida and also the people of the United States, because their efforts in making their opinion known, in writing their legislators and Congressmen made a difference. One person can make a difference and you out there did make a difference. You turned the tide of public opinion when it needed to be turned in this case, and my client thank you very much.
QUESTION: How will you determine when it will be appropriate to give her the last communion to make sure you don't wait too long?
FELOS: Well that is a decision for Mr. Schiavo when the hospice Chaplin and healthcare providers, I will tell you that as it appears to me, Mrs. Schiavo's death is not imminent by any means. She is resting comfortably. Her breathing did not appear to be shallow, and at least at this point it does not appear that her death is imminent.
QUESTION: How do you tell the differences between what you're saying about her condition and what the Schindlers are saying about her condition?
FELOS: I think it's obvious that those opposed to carrying out Terri's wishes have tried to -- lacking a legal case, have tried to stir up emotions and to get people angry and to have people believe that something wrong is occurring here, and it's just simply not the case. You know, also people see things in different ways, but frankly I was struck when I saw Mrs. Schiavo today. There was -- there was just naturalness about her. To me, it was just -- it's hard to put in words. The only thing I can say is that it felt right and appropriate that Mrs. Schiavo not be fed and sustained through an artificial device.
QUESTION: One of the things that were said as far as her condition, why not release some current videotape of her?
FELOS: Because Mrs. Schiavo has a right to privacy, she has a right to die with dignity, and releasing videos or photographs in that manner would not be appropriate.
QUESTION: How is Michael Schiavo and his family coping with all this, the protesters, pressures?
FELOS: Michael is coping well. He has his brothers with him, who is giving him support. The calls and e-mails and letters we have received from all around the country have helped him so much. But in spite of that, there's no getting around the fact that it's just -- it's heart-breaking and heart-wrenching for him. He's keeping -- he's keeping up the best as he can, but it's obviously a very highly emotional and difficult situation. Yes.
QUESTION: Does he have any regrets or is he concerned at all about family safety?
FELOS: Well, I've seen the press reports, as you all have, and I want to -- about the person being arrested in North Carolina and someone here in Florida, and we thank the law enforcement officials in this case. We thank the Federal Bureau of Investigation for investigating that e-mail threat. I can't describe to you the dedication and professional service that the Pinellas Park Police Department and the Sheriff's Department of Pinellas County are giving in this case, and we are more than confident that any threats or possibility of threats will be immediately and properly responded to by law enforcement.
QUESTION: Mr. Felos, did Michael visit the hospice today? And if so, do you know when?
FELOS: Michael is, as I've said a number of times, Michael is at the hospice facility on a continual basis. He has been with Terri, except for the media appearances he initially made; he has been with Terri on a continual basis since the artificial life supports stopped.
QUESTION: Can I follow-up with one of (INAUDIBLE). You have been Mr. Schiavo's attorney for eight years?
FELOS: Yes.
QUESTION: Can you characterize what this experience has been like?
FELOS: Well, I really can't characterize how it's been like for Michael.
QUESTION: For you?
FELOS: Well, you know, the case isn't about me; it's about my client. I've just said that for myself, I firmly believe in the right of individuals to make their own medical treatment choices, and that this is not an area where the state has an interest in being involved, and I certainly never expected this case would take as long as it did, but I have always -- I had always felt that we would be letting Terri down if we didn't carry it through and have her wishes carried out.
QUESTION: Members of the Schindler family are having a difficult time getting as much access to Terri as they would like. How much time is Michael setting aside for them coming to the room to visit?
FELOS: Well, it's my understanding that it's not a matter of setting aside time. The parents and the siblings and the persons on the visitors list can visit Terri whenever they like. Because of the discomfort the family members have with Michael obviously it's -- it doesn't seem to be a workable situation to have them all in Terri's room visiting at the same time. So the only situation where the parents may not be able to immediately visit Terri is if Michael happens to be at the room at the time, and it's my understanding that he has left to give the parents access. So to my understanding, there is no issue about permitting the parent's access.
QUESTION: Has there been any confrontations or outbursts that you're aware of inside the hospice?
FELOS: Not that I'm aware of.
QUESTION: Nr. Felos, can you make a comment about the (INAUDIBLE)
FELOS: That matter was also decided by a court order prior to the removal of artificial life support. Judge Greer ordered that Mrs. Schiavo -- her remains would be cremated and interred at Mr. Schiavo's request in his family plot in Pennsylvania where both Terri and Michael grew up.
QUESTION: Mr. Felos, you talked about the idea of communicating through the soul with people in persistent vegetative state. Is that meant to be taken literally, did you do that today when you were in her room? FELOS: Well, I don't think the American people are particularly interested in my opinion of metaphysics at this particular time, but we're all, in essence, we're all in essence spiritual beings. I believe we all have a soul and each of us contain the spark of God and are part of god's expression. And I'll leave that answer at that.
QUESTION: Sir, I was just wondering if the sheriff's deputies are here. Are they here at your request?
FELOS: As I've mentioned before, I'm not going to specifically comment on any security arrangements that are made in this case.
QUESTION: One other question, you want that, you know, given the situation between the family and Mr. Schiavo, they're not allowed to see at the same time or not choosing to do so. At the end, when death is imminent, do you expect them to all be in there at once, or how will that work?
FELOS: Of course, no one knows exactly when the moment of death would occur. I would hope that this family will find a way to do what's appropriate and satisfactory to everyone, and I hope that's what the result will be.
QUESTION: You've said the legal avenues have been exhausted, but assuming that they do in fact, as we've heard, file a request of the State Supreme Court to (INAUDIBLE) then what? Does it ever end? If they lose that, do they then wind up in another court someplace?
FELOS: At least one reporter corrected me and said that the representation of the parents is not to file in material court, so if we're talking about the state court system, we'll respond to any filings. I don't know specifically at this time I have not received any notice of appeal of Judge Greer's order entered at noon today, and so I don't know specifically what you're referring to when you say the parents are going to ask for review in the Florida Supreme Court. To my understanding, there's nothing pending in the 2nd District Court of Appeals to ask the Florida Supreme Court to review as far as the parents' case is concerned.
QUESTION: So your best information is the appeals are over.
FELSO: I'm getting the information from y'all, I hope your sources are reliable, so based upon the information I have, that was my understanding. I would hope that the parents' side realizes that any further legal action is going to be futile. I mean, we can under their desperate efforts in this case, but I would hope that at some point before Terri's death, they leave that behind and begin to try to cope with this more on a personal level. Yes.
QUESTION: As steadfast as Mr. Schiavo has been, everyone has noticed weakness. Has he expressed any second thoughts this last week or so? Has he backed off at all, even momentarily?
FELOS: No. No, I would say that just looking at Terri right now, and seeing the profound peace in that room only makes Mr. Schiavo realize that what he's been doing for her over all these years is the right thing to do.
QUESTION: Family members have again says that because they don't have access to the knowledge of medical care, they don't know what treatment morphine or anything that has been given to Terri to make this time more peaceful for her. Can you discuss what kinds of conditions are taking place in that room? Whether any medical treatment or other things that Mr. Schiavo might be doing to make this time more peaceful?
FELOS: I'm not aware; I didn't see any administration of medication of any sort. It's my understanding from the physician's orders that medication would only be administered on an as-needs basis. It's also my understanding that in these type of situations, which by now I think you all realize from those who are watching this at home and hearing doctors talk, is not unusual in the least. It's very commonplace, that patients, and even conscious patients who have artificial feeding and hydration withdrawn do not complain of pain and drift off slowly into a sleep and die.
So I did not see any indication that any medication's been being administered to Mrs. Schiavo. Now, there's Vaseline on her lips to prevent them from cracking, and there are -- certainly she's receiving palliative care or comfort care from the hospice workers, but I'm not aware of any pain medication being administered.
QUESTION: Is there any indication that her organs are failing at this point from dehydration?
FELOS: I have no information to that effect myself. I can only tell you my personal observation that Terri looked stable and certainly did not appear that she was -- she was breathing regularly, and it did not appear -- does not appear her death is imminent. I would like to remind people that the medical evidence indicates that death in this matter takes anywhere from ten to 14 days so it could be another five, six days or two or three days. It's just impossible to say at this time.
QUESTION: How will we find out when she dies? Will that come from you?
FELOS: I don't know. I don't know, but I'm sure -- I'm sure you all will find out quick enough.
QUESTION: Is there any music being played? I know there was a lot of discussion in the videotapes about her responding to music, et cetera. Is anyone trying to play music in the room for her, for themselves for that matter?
FELOS: When I was visiting with Terri, I didn't hear any music played in the room. Whether it's being played at other times, I don't know.
QUESTION: What about verbalization? Did she make any sounds while you were in the room with her?
FELOS: No -- well, at one point there may have been a slight sound as her body adjusted. You have to remember, as the doctors testified, when she makes sounds, it's usually in response to some sort of physical touching or pushing or sensation, and I did notice that when her body moved a little bit she made a soft sound. Other than that, I heard no sounds.
QUESTION: Any other members of the family spending time with him in the hospice?
FELOS: I know that Brian was there and I believe his brother Bill called while we were there and is on his way.
QUESTION: Is he sleeping at the hospice, you said continuously?
FELOS: Well again, you know I don't want to be too detailed about the whereabouts of Mr. Schiavo and his location, but he has been with Terri continuously at the hospice facility.
QUESTION: A friend of Terri indicated today that lawmakers in Washington were quote, unquote scrambling to try to find a way to get back involved in this case, possibly issuing some kind of subpoena or reissuing a subpoena that Judge Greer denied or blocked. Have you heard anything about that or concerned that they might get involved?
FELOS: I don't believe that for one second. I don't think anyone believes that. The indications that we received is that members -- the quotes I've heard from the sponsors of the congressional legislation, Senator Martinez acknowledged that no further federal efforts would be made. I believe President Bush was quoted as saying that. I don't think there's any chance that the United States Congress is going to reenter this case. Yes sir.
QUESTION: Mr. Felos are you married? Do you have family? May I ask that?
FELOS: Well, again, this is not about my personal life.
QUESTION: The question was going to be, if you did have a family, are you -- we all know that people have been arrested for talking about this, for making threats, for taking actions. Are you doing anything to protect your family at this time?
FELOS: Again, I have no specific -- I'm not going to make any specific statements about the security measures taken in this case for obvious purposes, but again I will say we are extremely confident with the posture, response, advanced planning, and work done by law enforcement on the municipal and county and on the national level. I don't think there's anything more law enforcement can be doing, and I won't comment further on that.
QUESTION: Will Michael Schiavo allow a memorial for her family, either a public one or private one, or whatever?
FELOS: Well, I don't think there's any law that prevents Terri's parents or siblings or anyone from erecting a memorial to Terri at any place. However, pursuant to the court order, which - pursuant to the court order, Terri will be cremated and her remains will be interred in the Schiavo family plot where Terri and Michael grew up. I just want to add to that that my client throughout the course of this litigation has scrupulously obeyed the court orders in every aspect, and he will continue to do so.
QUESTION: I think what he meant is would the Schindler's be allowed to be take part in a service with her remains at the interment or before the interment?
FELOS: Well, I don't have the answer to that question. As I recall from the hearing, the reason the judge ruled as he did is because he said spouses take precedence, and it was Mr. Schiavo's decision to the arrangements to be made after Terri's death.
QUESTION: Is he planning any private or public service?
FELOS: I don't know, and frankly I don't think he's thought that far ahead. I mean, he is -- he is with his wife by her bedside, and it's just a very difficult thing for him, and I think he is so immersed in the present moment here that I don't think he has even followed through in his thinking process to that.
QUESTION: Just yesterday the Schindlers' family attorney said he fully expected Terri Schiavo to step into eternity this Easter weekend. Any indication why he might have been saying that, if she's apparently doing so well?
GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: Well, of course one of the arguments -- one of the legal arguments we've heard is that courts -- and of course which makes the legal argument more dramatic, is that court action is needed at this moment because Terri's ready to die. I'm not saying that the attorney said that for purposes of making his motions more dramatic. I'm just telling you from the reports I've had up to today and through my observations today, that it does not appear at all that her death is imminent at this moment.
QUESTION: If the governor wanted (UNINTELLIGIBLE), do you see any legal way that he could step in to...
FELOS: No, and if the governor -- if the governor chose to do that, it would not be an action through his legal authority, but it would be through the -- through an illegal action of, in essence, a private citizen at that point in time. I think the -- you know, you have to remember going back to 2003, the governor took no action until the legislature passed the law on October 21, 2003 before he intervened, and his reason for doing it was we scrupulously gone through the Florida statutes and Florida constitution, and we see no basis for intervening, absent a law passed by the legislature. Well, let me tell you, the laws haven't changed since that point in time. There would be no legal basis, whatsoever, for the governor to take that sort of action which would be outside the law. And from what I've heard about the reported comments, or the comments of the governor which have been reported, is that, apparently, he has reached that same conclusion and he properly has vowed that he's not going to violate a court order and go beyond the law.
QUESTION: In yesterday's hearing, you referred to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as being "outrageous" and even bordering on (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the legal process. Do you see a continued filing and refilling, when then would it become, on the record, frivolous?
FELOS: Well, I believe they became on the record frivolous years ago. I mean, in essence, if you read Judge Greer's orders, he says "we've adjudicated this, we've gone through this issue, we've gone through that issue, I decided this in 2002, I decided in 2003, I decided it -- I decided it in 2004." There is -- there is a reluctance on the part of the judiciary to say you can't raise any more issues in a case of this important -- importance, but from a legal -- from a legal point of view, these -- these matters were -- became frivolous a long time ago. Now, I want to be very clear. The issue of whether or not Mrs. Schiavo dies or lives is not a frivolous matter, that is a matter of great legal weight and moral weight. What I'm saying is if you ask me a legal question as far as the legal sufficiencies of these motions, no, they haven't -- they haven't brought anything new or valid or material for years.
QUESTION: Do you foresee calling for censure in this case or some kind of a bar complaint based on the continued filings?
FELOS: Our total focus has been to effectuate Mrs. Schiavo's wishes. From a legal point of view, our energy has been 100 percent devoted towards that end. What may happen or could happen, we haven't planned for. First steps, first. When this case is over, the case to discontinue Mrs. Schiavo's artificial life support, according to her wishes, and the dust settles, and we all get a long rest, I don't know what new legal matters might arise, but it's -- that is not our focus at this time.
QUESTION: George, based on what you know about similar cases, will it be obvious when she's in her final hours? Will there be an indication that she's -- her death is imminent, medically?
FELOS: Well, I believe -- yes, is the answer. Of course, Terri could suffer a cardiac arrest at any moment, but from my personal experience of years of being a hospice patient volunteer, the -- there are indications when death becomes -- when death becomes imminent. There's something -- the breathing becomes shallow, and then it becomes irregular, and then in the medical term, is chain-stokes breathing, where it appears as if the patient is unable to take the next breath and that period of breathing lasts for awhile. Mrs. Schiavo has certainly not entered that phase in her condition at this time.
QUESTION: Given your intimate knowledge of this case, do you believe there would be some lasting legacy or legal precedent or any sort?
FELOS: Well, there already have. The Florida Supreme Court's -- the Florida Supreme Court's decision in Bush v. Schiavo, upholding the separation of powers is a lasting legal legacy. I think also that one of the lasting legacies of this case is that, although it was pretty helter-skelter for a while and we weren't -- we didn't know for sure that the rule of law prevailed, and that occurred because there were many, many individuals, institutions vigilant to make sure that happened. And as an attorney, I'm relieved and proud of that legal result. OK. Yes?
QUESTION: You said that your client has the authority to take care of her remains. Why has he chosen not to allow her parents to participate in that decision when, I know, this has been a very acrimonious problem between -- in the family? Why not at least give them that?
FELOS: Well, as the court said that's a personal, private matter between husband and wife, and I don't know exactly what the final arrangements would be or what accommodations would be requested, I don't know that. But, if you ask "why not" this is a man who's been called a murderer. This is a man who shamelessly has been -- has been called by the parents and the siblings of Terri an abuser, a murderer. These are false charges, and they know they're false charges. So, if you ask me "why not," can you imagine -- can you imagine how Mr. Schiavo feels about that? And again, I don't know what might be requested or what accommodation might be made, but I think anyone can understand how Mr. Schiavo feels in this situation. OK. Thanks.
GERRI WILLIS, CNN CO-ANCHOR: If you're just joing us, we've been listening to George Felos, the attorney for Terri Schiavo's husband, Michael Schiavo. He's been talking at length about how Terri Schiavo appears right now. He says. "she's calm, she's peaceful, she's beautiful even," in his words. He says that death is not imminent for Terri Schiavo, described her at length. He says the legal struggle is over, and that a profound peace seems to overcome her.
For more on her condition, we're going to turn to Mark Siegel. He's at the New York University Medical School, to talk about the situation this family finds themselves in now, Terri Schiavo's condition.
What can you tell us, Doctor, about how long she may have in front of her, what she's going through right now?
MARK SIEGEL, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY MEDICAL SCHOOL: Well, you know, if she's, in fact, breathing regularly and not shallowly, the way Mr. Felos was saying, then I would say that she probably has some time left. The chances are that over the next week, she will die, but in fact, what happens is the kidneys shut down and you get toxins in the blood, acid and potassium builds up. The patient tries to compensate for that by breathing faster and more shallowly and more irregularly, and the terminology he used is correct. They would start to chain- stoke breathe and you would feel that death is more imminent.
WILLIS: Dr. Siegel, will she suffer?
SIEGEL: Well, you know, that's a very tough question because this has been studied by many neurologists, and the medical literature on this would suggest that she wouldn't suffer, but the problem with that conclusion is that no one has actually ever been there and come back, and so all of this literature is based on observation, and you really can't know for sure. One thing that does happen, over the next few days, is that the kidney puts out something called "uremia," and that actually decreases perception even further than where she is, so that would probably decrease any discomfort, if there is any. WILLIS: And, of course, we were talking about the length of time she might survive in this state. What's your view on this, doctor?
SIEGEL: Well, you know the first question I would ask, which we don't know, he didn't go into this in the press conference, obviously not a physician, but, you know, I need -- would need to know whether her urine output is going down. That's the first sign that the kidneys failing. And as far as her skin is concerned, I think her skin would get quite dry, but putting Vaseline on her lips is a common procedure and that's a good idea. But, I do expect that she will not last than more than another few days, that's my expectation.
WILLIS: Doctor, thank you so much for that. We appreciate your time, today.
SIEGEL: Thank you very much.
WILLIS: Coming up, we'll have more coverage of the Terri Schiavo case. We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Let's talk about the legal aspects of the Schiavo case and where it stands right now with two attorneys who have been following it for weeks, now. David Oblon, he joins us from Washington; and Avery Freidman who's been with us most of the day, is in Cincinnati.
And Avery, we're going to give you a bit of a break and we're going to pick on David for a little bit.
And David, give us a sense, George Felos says the legal struggle is over. Is it?
DAVID OBLON, ATTORNEY: He's right. It was over a long time ago. The parents of Terri Schiavo just didn't realize it, yet. The fact is is (SIC) that the federal law that was recently passed to give the federal courts jurisdiction was unconstitutional, so that was going nowhere. And it to even get to that point, in determining whether it was unconstitutional or not, they lost in the merits of federal law. As far as proceeding for further appeals in the state court, I understand that they may go to the Florida Supreme Court in order to test Judge Greer's decision, that's going nowhere, because ultimately we go back to what we talked about...
HARRIS: Earlier in the week, yeah.
OBLON: Earlier in the week, you know, that there's a pivotal decision. That pivotal decision's who speaks for Terri Schiavo? And that was determined in court, and now the parents come back, repeatedly, to challenge the initial determination that Michael Schiavo speaks for Terri Schiavo, and they can't litigate on a piecemeal basis like this. There's a finality to litigation. You do your best arguments, it's tested in an adversarial setting, and the judge rules. And once the judge rules, you can't come back and say, oh well, had I said this, would this have changed your opinion? HARRIS: Right. Right.
OBLON: Unless it's bona fide newfound evidence that you could not have determined -- you could not have discovered despite due diligence.
HARRIS: Hey, Avery, why didn't we get to the constitutional question about the law that was passed by congress? It seems as though it was just assumed to be constitutional.
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, you're exactly right, Tony. Despite a lot of commentators saying that the law was unconstitutional, I actually thought it was unconstitutional. What the court did, and I meant the trial court, the federal district judge, Judge James Whittemore, as well as the United States Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit. And they did they twice, they said you know what? For purposes of our evaluation, we're going to assume -- we will presume the constitutionality of this law, but because the Schindlers couldn't -- there was not a likelihood that they could show a violation of federal law, the case was dismissed. So, the general principle, at least in federal law, and in many state laws, is that if a court can resolve an issue without having to deal with the bigger issue, in this case the constitutionality, it will resolve the case short of having to, essentially, blow up the law, and that's really what happened here, Tony.
HARRIS: Yeah, and David, but can't do this normally, can you? You can't -- you don't like the decision that you get in the state courts, go right to the federal courts. You can't do that, can you?
OBLON: No. I'm a litigator, and I win most of my cases, but occasionally I lose, and when I lose, I'll tell you, I want to come right back into court and present an entirely different legal strategy, completely different evidence, and go right back in there fighting. And if I were to do that, I would get sanctioned under ordinary cases. In this particular instance, the judiciary is bending over backwards for Schindlers' parents.
HARRIS: Right.
OBLON: I'm glad you're doing it. It does give the parent's a degree of peace and degree of hope for a period of time, but at the end of the day, judges make their decisions, they do it based on adversarial forum, and the decision once it's made, it's final.
HARRIS: Yeah, and Avery, the issue here was that the federal courts were looking at, were Terri Schiavo's constitutional rights protected? Civil rights...
FRIEDMAN: Well, all right, Tony, it's even a little bit more defined. I had to -- I sat in a chair for three hours for CNN doing analysis as we heard every member of Congress talking about feeding tubes and religious freedom, all sorts of things, but when it got right down to it, what they were talking about, and what the federal law that got passed was, were two different things. The federal claim that existed is whether or not there was a process available to the Schindlers.
HARRIS: Right.
FRIEDMAN: And I'm taking a very legalistic case and putting it into shirt-sleeve English. In one sense, what the federal court said is this -- if the Schindlers had a chance to put on evidence, cross- examine and appeal, there is due process under the federal constitution and that's all the federal law did. That's it.
HARRIS: Yeah. David, was the rule of law preserved here?
OBLON: The rule of law was certainly preserved. And that doesn't mean that you have to be happy with the result. There are alternatives, and we are in a process of three branches of government. One of the branches of government is the legislature. If you're unhappy with the results, you can change the law. There is no magic saying that the husband gets to speak for the wife as a default basis. You could change the law and say that any family member, unless there is unanimity for death gets life. You can't default on life. That is something that the Florida legislature was considering and they decided not to pass a bill for.
HARRIS: And Avery, quickly, would you add anything to that?
FRIEDMAN: Well, they did -- yeah, very quickly, the Federal Court of Appeals did something that nobody expected to see, because we heard a lot of, actually the phony commentators talking about cruel and unusual punishment. And you know what? The Federal Court of Appeals put that to bed. Those sort of issues deal with criminal cases, they have nothing to do with civil case, so that for all the people that want to engage in rhetoric and, frankly, phony arguments, indeed the federal court ended that and said it has no application in the Terri Schiavo case.
HARRIS: There they are, Dave Oblon, and Avery Freidman, our legal eagles on the case for us, this afternoon. Gentlemen, thank you both.
OLBON: Thanks for having us.
FRIEDMAN: Nice to be with you, Tony.
HARRIS: We'll take a break and come back with more CNN SATURDAY right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WILLIS: Welcome back to CNN SATURDAY. We are spending the afternoon talking about Terri Schiavo. Many, many press conferences held today. Right now we're going to go, though; to John Zarrella in Pinellas Park where the hospice is located where she is reported to be resting comfortably.
John, what are you hearing?
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Gerri, let me -- let me fill you in, first, on a couple developments that have happened here. During the course of the press conference that was going on with George Felos, there was an instance about 30 minutes ago, or so ago, where police thought they might have had, quote, "a breach in the security," here, so what they did was they closed down the street. It is reopened now, and we can see -- you can see, behind me, that there is a lot more police presence here at the entrance of the hospice, two, three rows deep now of police on this side, a couple rows deep of police at my right, at the two entrances. So they have stepped up security, here. That's all they will say. They will not say what level of security they have, but in fact they did reopen the street, but needless to say, there is concern, and quite frankly there are probably plain clothes police who are milling about within the crowd. They did get word from within the -- from within the crowd that they thought there might be some sort of a breach of security about to happen. So, genuine concern about that. And the ongoing security, certainly, very intense as the hours go by and we get, obviously, closer and closer to Terri Schiavo's passing away, at this point.
Now, what's really interesting is the characterizations on the one side of George Felos, who said that, you know, in all the years he's seen her, she looked more at peace and beauty than he's ever seen her: Calm, peaceful, resting comfortably. Now, Bobby Schindler, her brother, came out from the hospice a while ago and made a very brief statement. And his statement would almost indicate to you just the opposite.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S BROTHER: For every person out there that believes it was wrong for Congress and the governor to get involved in my sister's case, they need to go inside, right now, and look at my sister and when they come out you need to ask them if the Congress and the governor were wrong for getting involved in my sister's case. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZARRELLA: Now, Terri's father, Bob Senior, went in, had also seen her earlier today, and Bob Senior had came out and when he spoke, he said that Terri was putting up, what he termed, "a remarkable struggle to live."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB SCHIAVO, SR., TERRI SCHIAVO'S FATHER: And she's doing remarkably well, under the circumstances. As a matter of fact, I was surprised. So she's putting up a tremendous battle to live, and it's quite obvious she's not throwing the towel in. She doesn't want to die, and she is starting -- she's showing signs of, over a week now, of starvation and lack of hydration, but I can tell you and assure you she is fighting like hell to stay alive. And I want the powers to be to know that. It's not too late to save her. So, anyone that has the authority to come in and to save Terri, they can do it. It's not too late. So she's fighting, and we're asking you to fight with her and help her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZARRELLA: Now, the differences in opinions, obviously, Mr. Felos addressed that, but it does underscore what has been going on, here, in the long years of a legal battle, the two sides very much at odds, no common ground, very little common ground in this fight, and even as far as we are now, just to what her condition is here in her final days, there isn't any real agreement there on how Terri Schiavo apparently is doing.
I thought it was interesting in that news conference, too, though, you know, "her death is not imminent," George Felos said, and that is pretty much what we had heard right along from experts, that it could be up to 14 days, that she's still breathing regularly. So it certainly appears as if she is not, at least according to George Felos, at this point in any imminent danger.
So Gerri, we're going to keep watching it here. Again, the crowds of not exactly as we would have expected, today. I thought it would be a lot more people here, given that it's a Saturday, but not any more than what we've seen during the other day -- Gerri.
WILLIS: John Zarrella, thank you for that.
HARRIS: And this just in to CNN. We want to turn around some pictures we received just a short time ago, some dramatic pictures, in fact, the aftermath of an explosion in Beirut, Lebanon. And Arab television stations are quoting security officials as saying it was caused by a bomb. Now, firefighters are on the scene, trying to control the fire, as you can see here. We've seen police, we've seen soldiers with rifles pushing people back in the streets. We've seen at least one ambulance on the scene, but we have no idea of injuries, at this point in time. The explosion seems to be in a business or residential area, and we're told it's a predominantly Christian area of Beirut.
Now, we don't know, at this point, if this explosion is any way tied to reaction to the recent assassination, the assassination, last month, of the former prime minister of Lebanon, Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. We certainly will be asking those questions and finding that out. But once again, just to recap the stories, these are pictures, just in to CNN, of the aftermath of an explosion in Beirut in a predominantly Christian area of the city. We will continue to follow developments and bring you the latest information. We'll take a break and come right back with more of CNN SATURDAY.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired March 26, 2005 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: As you know, Judge George Greer turned down the emergency motion by the family earlier today. He was with the 6th Judicial Circuit Court; he turned down the motion for immediate relief. The family had requested that Terri Schiavo get some type of intravenous fluid over this Easter weekend, something to carry her through it while they pursued some other legal battles. The attorney wants time for Terri to be examined by doctors; he also wants to prove that she has a will to live. As you know, Michael Schiavo has made the decision to remove the feeding tube. Because he says his wife would not like to live this way.
The judge has agreed with that. His ruling comes over some comments by Barbara Weller, an attorney for the family. She had visited with Terri Schiavo, and said that in asking Terri Schiavo whether or not she wants to live, Terri Schiavo had expressed some interest in wanting to live. That she had made some sounds, some ah and some wa which Barbara Weller took as the beginning of trying to say "I want to live."
Well the judge said that was not the case, he said that it was more a similar to if you were to touch your hand to hot stove and you pulled back he called it stimulious response, he said that was the case more because Barbara Weller had been holder Terri Schiavo's hand and her sort of cupping her and he said that Terri Schiavo was simply responding to that touch.
He said the affidavits regarding those verbal comments or sounds came too late, and that Barbara Weller was not even present at the hearing, the emergency hearing yesterday, and not there to tell the world, as he said. Once again we're here outside George Felos' office. We're still waiting for him. We do know that the family, the Schindler's, Bob and Mary Schindler have said they will appeal the judge's latest decision, Judge George Greer's decision to the Florida Supreme Court. They have given up all federal appeals, so that is expected to be filed this afternoon, and as we wait here for George Felos to come down and say some comments -- Tony.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR, CNN SATURDAY: That's interesting, Randi, just to go through the history of this, at least at this point, there is no plan to appeal this to the federal court, to the entire Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals, no plans for that?
KAYE: No plan at all for that. They had said earlier this morning that they were done with federal appeals. This family on both sides has been through quite a bit. They will appeal, though, this afternoon, they have said, to the Florida Supreme Court. HARRIS: OK, Randi Kay in Dunedin, Florida. And Randi, the moment you see Attorney Felos, just give us a heads-up.
KAYE: Will do.
HARRIS: OK, thanks Randi. Let's get you to Pinellas Park, Florida, the hospice where Terri Schiavo is being cared for now. And our John Zarrella is standing by. John.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi Tony. Well just a little while ago we heard from Bobby Schindler, who came out here after having going into see his sister and he basically said that for all of those who support that Terri should be kept off and allowed to die, they should see my sister, is the way he put it.
They should go in there and see how she looks today, basically, a reference that she is really, really deteriorating. That was all he said, a very short statement. He then left and came back inside to the room they have here not far from where our position is. Then just a few moments ago, the family received a delivery of 100 red roses for Terri Schiavo.
HARRIS: John, let's go back to Dunedin, Florida and George Felos.
GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: My client asked me to give a brief statement this afternoon, because many of you have heard different accounts of Mrs. Schiavo's condition. I believe the parents and siblings and some of their reporters have described Mrs. Schiavo as having her lips bleeding or her skin peeling, or being in discomfort. That is simply not the truth. I was just down at hospice. I spent about 20 minutes with Mrs. Schiavo.
She is calm, she's peaceful, she's resting comfortably, her lips are not chapped, they're not bleeding, her skin is -- her skin's not peeling. Frankly, when I saw her, and it's the first time I've seen her since the artificial life support was removed eight days ago, she looked beautiful. In all the years I've seen Mrs. Schiavo, I've never seen such a look of peace and beauty upon her. So that's one thing that I wanted to mention.
The other is, while I was down at the hospice facility, there was a request by the parents' spiritual adviser to administer communion on Mrs. Schiavo today, and that request was refused, and I want to explain exactly why, so there is absolutely no misinterpretation here. The court issued an order the weak before artificial feeding was removed, which provided that Mrs. Schiavo receive last rites and the sacrament of communion the day her feeding tube was removed. That did occur, and the court also ordered that she may receive the sacrament one other occasion prior to her death, and when that occurs, the sacrament would be administered by the hospice priest and the parents' spiritual adviser may be present should he choose at that time.
My client will scrupulously follow the court order and the additional sacrament of communion, which was authorized and ordered by the court, will be administered in exactly the manner that the court ordered. I also wanted to comment upon the statement I've heard reported in the press today from the attorney for Mr. And Mrs. Schindler, stating, in essence, that the legal fight and struggle is over, that they don't intend on filing any further motions or court documents. I'm very happy to hear that. I think that's the right thing to do at this point.
As you mentioned a couple days ago, if there's anything that I think Mrs. Schiavo would want is not only to die with dignity and peace, but to also have the country at peace over this matter. So as we are approaching Easter, I think Terri would want all of us to reflect on the impermanence of life and ask ourselves the questions, what's the purpose of my life? And how can I best fulfill that? And how can I be of service to others? So again I hope that if there's anything that may -- one of the things that may come out of this perhaps is a period of inward reflection after all that outer attention. That's the only thing I have to say, and I'll be happy to take any questions.
QUESTION: It's been said that actually they no longer plan to file more federal appeals, but are in fact planning this afternoon to file with the State Supreme Court.
FELOS: Well, that's not what I heard. I don't know exactly what proceeding they're going to be appealing to the State Supreme Court. I think that it's fair to say, if you look at the position of the court system, the courts -- the courts are saying not, of course, that they won't look at any relief filed, but I think any fair observer of the situation would say the legal struggle is over here, and I would hope the parents acknowledge that.
QUESTION: You want she received last rites and communion. How did she...
FELOS: On March 18th, the day the feeding tube was removed, the sacrament of communion was administered through her feeding tube according to the court order.
QUESTION: Do you see any legal avenue at this point that the governor may try and take at the 11th hour?
FELOS: No, I don't, and I think there's a real perceptible shift in public opinion here. I think the politicians have backed off this case. I think the politicians here realize that they made an erroneous judgment as what might be in their interests, and in that regard, on behalf of my client, I want to thank the citizens of the state of Florida and also the people of the United States, because their efforts in making their opinion known, in writing their legislators and Congressmen made a difference. One person can make a difference and you out there did make a difference. You turned the tide of public opinion when it needed to be turned in this case, and my client thank you very much.
QUESTION: How will you determine when it will be appropriate to give her the last communion to make sure you don't wait too long?
FELOS: Well that is a decision for Mr. Schiavo when the hospice Chaplin and healthcare providers, I will tell you that as it appears to me, Mrs. Schiavo's death is not imminent by any means. She is resting comfortably. Her breathing did not appear to be shallow, and at least at this point it does not appear that her death is imminent.
QUESTION: How do you tell the differences between what you're saying about her condition and what the Schindlers are saying about her condition?
FELOS: I think it's obvious that those opposed to carrying out Terri's wishes have tried to -- lacking a legal case, have tried to stir up emotions and to get people angry and to have people believe that something wrong is occurring here, and it's just simply not the case. You know, also people see things in different ways, but frankly I was struck when I saw Mrs. Schiavo today. There was -- there was just naturalness about her. To me, it was just -- it's hard to put in words. The only thing I can say is that it felt right and appropriate that Mrs. Schiavo not be fed and sustained through an artificial device.
QUESTION: One of the things that were said as far as her condition, why not release some current videotape of her?
FELOS: Because Mrs. Schiavo has a right to privacy, she has a right to die with dignity, and releasing videos or photographs in that manner would not be appropriate.
QUESTION: How is Michael Schiavo and his family coping with all this, the protesters, pressures?
FELOS: Michael is coping well. He has his brothers with him, who is giving him support. The calls and e-mails and letters we have received from all around the country have helped him so much. But in spite of that, there's no getting around the fact that it's just -- it's heart-breaking and heart-wrenching for him. He's keeping -- he's keeping up the best as he can, but it's obviously a very highly emotional and difficult situation. Yes.
QUESTION: Does he have any regrets or is he concerned at all about family safety?
FELOS: Well, I've seen the press reports, as you all have, and I want to -- about the person being arrested in North Carolina and someone here in Florida, and we thank the law enforcement officials in this case. We thank the Federal Bureau of Investigation for investigating that e-mail threat. I can't describe to you the dedication and professional service that the Pinellas Park Police Department and the Sheriff's Department of Pinellas County are giving in this case, and we are more than confident that any threats or possibility of threats will be immediately and properly responded to by law enforcement.
QUESTION: Mr. Felos, did Michael visit the hospice today? And if so, do you know when?
FELOS: Michael is, as I've said a number of times, Michael is at the hospice facility on a continual basis. He has been with Terri, except for the media appearances he initially made; he has been with Terri on a continual basis since the artificial life supports stopped.
QUESTION: Can I follow-up with one of (INAUDIBLE). You have been Mr. Schiavo's attorney for eight years?
FELOS: Yes.
QUESTION: Can you characterize what this experience has been like?
FELOS: Well, I really can't characterize how it's been like for Michael.
QUESTION: For you?
FELOS: Well, you know, the case isn't about me; it's about my client. I've just said that for myself, I firmly believe in the right of individuals to make their own medical treatment choices, and that this is not an area where the state has an interest in being involved, and I certainly never expected this case would take as long as it did, but I have always -- I had always felt that we would be letting Terri down if we didn't carry it through and have her wishes carried out.
QUESTION: Members of the Schindler family are having a difficult time getting as much access to Terri as they would like. How much time is Michael setting aside for them coming to the room to visit?
FELOS: Well, it's my understanding that it's not a matter of setting aside time. The parents and the siblings and the persons on the visitors list can visit Terri whenever they like. Because of the discomfort the family members have with Michael obviously it's -- it doesn't seem to be a workable situation to have them all in Terri's room visiting at the same time. So the only situation where the parents may not be able to immediately visit Terri is if Michael happens to be at the room at the time, and it's my understanding that he has left to give the parents access. So to my understanding, there is no issue about permitting the parent's access.
QUESTION: Has there been any confrontations or outbursts that you're aware of inside the hospice?
FELOS: Not that I'm aware of.
QUESTION: Nr. Felos, can you make a comment about the (INAUDIBLE)
FELOS: That matter was also decided by a court order prior to the removal of artificial life support. Judge Greer ordered that Mrs. Schiavo -- her remains would be cremated and interred at Mr. Schiavo's request in his family plot in Pennsylvania where both Terri and Michael grew up.
QUESTION: Mr. Felos, you talked about the idea of communicating through the soul with people in persistent vegetative state. Is that meant to be taken literally, did you do that today when you were in her room? FELOS: Well, I don't think the American people are particularly interested in my opinion of metaphysics at this particular time, but we're all, in essence, we're all in essence spiritual beings. I believe we all have a soul and each of us contain the spark of God and are part of god's expression. And I'll leave that answer at that.
QUESTION: Sir, I was just wondering if the sheriff's deputies are here. Are they here at your request?
FELOS: As I've mentioned before, I'm not going to specifically comment on any security arrangements that are made in this case.
QUESTION: One other question, you want that, you know, given the situation between the family and Mr. Schiavo, they're not allowed to see at the same time or not choosing to do so. At the end, when death is imminent, do you expect them to all be in there at once, or how will that work?
FELOS: Of course, no one knows exactly when the moment of death would occur. I would hope that this family will find a way to do what's appropriate and satisfactory to everyone, and I hope that's what the result will be.
QUESTION: You've said the legal avenues have been exhausted, but assuming that they do in fact, as we've heard, file a request of the State Supreme Court to (INAUDIBLE) then what? Does it ever end? If they lose that, do they then wind up in another court someplace?
FELOS: At least one reporter corrected me and said that the representation of the parents is not to file in material court, so if we're talking about the state court system, we'll respond to any filings. I don't know specifically at this time I have not received any notice of appeal of Judge Greer's order entered at noon today, and so I don't know specifically what you're referring to when you say the parents are going to ask for review in the Florida Supreme Court. To my understanding, there's nothing pending in the 2nd District Court of Appeals to ask the Florida Supreme Court to review as far as the parents' case is concerned.
QUESTION: So your best information is the appeals are over.
FELSO: I'm getting the information from y'all, I hope your sources are reliable, so based upon the information I have, that was my understanding. I would hope that the parents' side realizes that any further legal action is going to be futile. I mean, we can under their desperate efforts in this case, but I would hope that at some point before Terri's death, they leave that behind and begin to try to cope with this more on a personal level. Yes.
QUESTION: As steadfast as Mr. Schiavo has been, everyone has noticed weakness. Has he expressed any second thoughts this last week or so? Has he backed off at all, even momentarily?
FELOS: No. No, I would say that just looking at Terri right now, and seeing the profound peace in that room only makes Mr. Schiavo realize that what he's been doing for her over all these years is the right thing to do.
QUESTION: Family members have again says that because they don't have access to the knowledge of medical care, they don't know what treatment morphine or anything that has been given to Terri to make this time more peaceful for her. Can you discuss what kinds of conditions are taking place in that room? Whether any medical treatment or other things that Mr. Schiavo might be doing to make this time more peaceful?
FELOS: I'm not aware; I didn't see any administration of medication of any sort. It's my understanding from the physician's orders that medication would only be administered on an as-needs basis. It's also my understanding that in these type of situations, which by now I think you all realize from those who are watching this at home and hearing doctors talk, is not unusual in the least. It's very commonplace, that patients, and even conscious patients who have artificial feeding and hydration withdrawn do not complain of pain and drift off slowly into a sleep and die.
So I did not see any indication that any medication's been being administered to Mrs. Schiavo. Now, there's Vaseline on her lips to prevent them from cracking, and there are -- certainly she's receiving palliative care or comfort care from the hospice workers, but I'm not aware of any pain medication being administered.
QUESTION: Is there any indication that her organs are failing at this point from dehydration?
FELOS: I have no information to that effect myself. I can only tell you my personal observation that Terri looked stable and certainly did not appear that she was -- she was breathing regularly, and it did not appear -- does not appear her death is imminent. I would like to remind people that the medical evidence indicates that death in this matter takes anywhere from ten to 14 days so it could be another five, six days or two or three days. It's just impossible to say at this time.
QUESTION: How will we find out when she dies? Will that come from you?
FELOS: I don't know. I don't know, but I'm sure -- I'm sure you all will find out quick enough.
QUESTION: Is there any music being played? I know there was a lot of discussion in the videotapes about her responding to music, et cetera. Is anyone trying to play music in the room for her, for themselves for that matter?
FELOS: When I was visiting with Terri, I didn't hear any music played in the room. Whether it's being played at other times, I don't know.
QUESTION: What about verbalization? Did she make any sounds while you were in the room with her?
FELOS: No -- well, at one point there may have been a slight sound as her body adjusted. You have to remember, as the doctors testified, when she makes sounds, it's usually in response to some sort of physical touching or pushing or sensation, and I did notice that when her body moved a little bit she made a soft sound. Other than that, I heard no sounds.
QUESTION: Any other members of the family spending time with him in the hospice?
FELOS: I know that Brian was there and I believe his brother Bill called while we were there and is on his way.
QUESTION: Is he sleeping at the hospice, you said continuously?
FELOS: Well again, you know I don't want to be too detailed about the whereabouts of Mr. Schiavo and his location, but he has been with Terri continuously at the hospice facility.
QUESTION: A friend of Terri indicated today that lawmakers in Washington were quote, unquote scrambling to try to find a way to get back involved in this case, possibly issuing some kind of subpoena or reissuing a subpoena that Judge Greer denied or blocked. Have you heard anything about that or concerned that they might get involved?
FELOS: I don't believe that for one second. I don't think anyone believes that. The indications that we received is that members -- the quotes I've heard from the sponsors of the congressional legislation, Senator Martinez acknowledged that no further federal efforts would be made. I believe President Bush was quoted as saying that. I don't think there's any chance that the United States Congress is going to reenter this case. Yes sir.
QUESTION: Mr. Felos are you married? Do you have family? May I ask that?
FELOS: Well, again, this is not about my personal life.
QUESTION: The question was going to be, if you did have a family, are you -- we all know that people have been arrested for talking about this, for making threats, for taking actions. Are you doing anything to protect your family at this time?
FELOS: Again, I have no specific -- I'm not going to make any specific statements about the security measures taken in this case for obvious purposes, but again I will say we are extremely confident with the posture, response, advanced planning, and work done by law enforcement on the municipal and county and on the national level. I don't think there's anything more law enforcement can be doing, and I won't comment further on that.
QUESTION: Will Michael Schiavo allow a memorial for her family, either a public one or private one, or whatever?
FELOS: Well, I don't think there's any law that prevents Terri's parents or siblings or anyone from erecting a memorial to Terri at any place. However, pursuant to the court order, which - pursuant to the court order, Terri will be cremated and her remains will be interred in the Schiavo family plot where Terri and Michael grew up. I just want to add to that that my client throughout the course of this litigation has scrupulously obeyed the court orders in every aspect, and he will continue to do so.
QUESTION: I think what he meant is would the Schindler's be allowed to be take part in a service with her remains at the interment or before the interment?
FELOS: Well, I don't have the answer to that question. As I recall from the hearing, the reason the judge ruled as he did is because he said spouses take precedence, and it was Mr. Schiavo's decision to the arrangements to be made after Terri's death.
QUESTION: Is he planning any private or public service?
FELOS: I don't know, and frankly I don't think he's thought that far ahead. I mean, he is -- he is with his wife by her bedside, and it's just a very difficult thing for him, and I think he is so immersed in the present moment here that I don't think he has even followed through in his thinking process to that.
QUESTION: Just yesterday the Schindlers' family attorney said he fully expected Terri Schiavo to step into eternity this Easter weekend. Any indication why he might have been saying that, if she's apparently doing so well?
GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: Well, of course one of the arguments -- one of the legal arguments we've heard is that courts -- and of course which makes the legal argument more dramatic, is that court action is needed at this moment because Terri's ready to die. I'm not saying that the attorney said that for purposes of making his motions more dramatic. I'm just telling you from the reports I've had up to today and through my observations today, that it does not appear at all that her death is imminent at this moment.
QUESTION: If the governor wanted (UNINTELLIGIBLE), do you see any legal way that he could step in to...
FELOS: No, and if the governor -- if the governor chose to do that, it would not be an action through his legal authority, but it would be through the -- through an illegal action of, in essence, a private citizen at that point in time. I think the -- you know, you have to remember going back to 2003, the governor took no action until the legislature passed the law on October 21, 2003 before he intervened, and his reason for doing it was we scrupulously gone through the Florida statutes and Florida constitution, and we see no basis for intervening, absent a law passed by the legislature. Well, let me tell you, the laws haven't changed since that point in time. There would be no legal basis, whatsoever, for the governor to take that sort of action which would be outside the law. And from what I've heard about the reported comments, or the comments of the governor which have been reported, is that, apparently, he has reached that same conclusion and he properly has vowed that he's not going to violate a court order and go beyond the law.
QUESTION: In yesterday's hearing, you referred to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as being "outrageous" and even bordering on (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the legal process. Do you see a continued filing and refilling, when then would it become, on the record, frivolous?
FELOS: Well, I believe they became on the record frivolous years ago. I mean, in essence, if you read Judge Greer's orders, he says "we've adjudicated this, we've gone through this issue, we've gone through that issue, I decided this in 2002, I decided in 2003, I decided it -- I decided it in 2004." There is -- there is a reluctance on the part of the judiciary to say you can't raise any more issues in a case of this important -- importance, but from a legal -- from a legal point of view, these -- these matters were -- became frivolous a long time ago. Now, I want to be very clear. The issue of whether or not Mrs. Schiavo dies or lives is not a frivolous matter, that is a matter of great legal weight and moral weight. What I'm saying is if you ask me a legal question as far as the legal sufficiencies of these motions, no, they haven't -- they haven't brought anything new or valid or material for years.
QUESTION: Do you foresee calling for censure in this case or some kind of a bar complaint based on the continued filings?
FELOS: Our total focus has been to effectuate Mrs. Schiavo's wishes. From a legal point of view, our energy has been 100 percent devoted towards that end. What may happen or could happen, we haven't planned for. First steps, first. When this case is over, the case to discontinue Mrs. Schiavo's artificial life support, according to her wishes, and the dust settles, and we all get a long rest, I don't know what new legal matters might arise, but it's -- that is not our focus at this time.
QUESTION: George, based on what you know about similar cases, will it be obvious when she's in her final hours? Will there be an indication that she's -- her death is imminent, medically?
FELOS: Well, I believe -- yes, is the answer. Of course, Terri could suffer a cardiac arrest at any moment, but from my personal experience of years of being a hospice patient volunteer, the -- there are indications when death becomes -- when death becomes imminent. There's something -- the breathing becomes shallow, and then it becomes irregular, and then in the medical term, is chain-stokes breathing, where it appears as if the patient is unable to take the next breath and that period of breathing lasts for awhile. Mrs. Schiavo has certainly not entered that phase in her condition at this time.
QUESTION: Given your intimate knowledge of this case, do you believe there would be some lasting legacy or legal precedent or any sort?
FELOS: Well, there already have. The Florida Supreme Court's -- the Florida Supreme Court's decision in Bush v. Schiavo, upholding the separation of powers is a lasting legal legacy. I think also that one of the lasting legacies of this case is that, although it was pretty helter-skelter for a while and we weren't -- we didn't know for sure that the rule of law prevailed, and that occurred because there were many, many individuals, institutions vigilant to make sure that happened. And as an attorney, I'm relieved and proud of that legal result. OK. Yes?
QUESTION: You said that your client has the authority to take care of her remains. Why has he chosen not to allow her parents to participate in that decision when, I know, this has been a very acrimonious problem between -- in the family? Why not at least give them that?
FELOS: Well, as the court said that's a personal, private matter between husband and wife, and I don't know exactly what the final arrangements would be or what accommodations would be requested, I don't know that. But, if you ask "why not" this is a man who's been called a murderer. This is a man who shamelessly has been -- has been called by the parents and the siblings of Terri an abuser, a murderer. These are false charges, and they know they're false charges. So, if you ask me "why not," can you imagine -- can you imagine how Mr. Schiavo feels about that? And again, I don't know what might be requested or what accommodation might be made, but I think anyone can understand how Mr. Schiavo feels in this situation. OK. Thanks.
GERRI WILLIS, CNN CO-ANCHOR: If you're just joing us, we've been listening to George Felos, the attorney for Terri Schiavo's husband, Michael Schiavo. He's been talking at length about how Terri Schiavo appears right now. He says. "she's calm, she's peaceful, she's beautiful even," in his words. He says that death is not imminent for Terri Schiavo, described her at length. He says the legal struggle is over, and that a profound peace seems to overcome her.
For more on her condition, we're going to turn to Mark Siegel. He's at the New York University Medical School, to talk about the situation this family finds themselves in now, Terri Schiavo's condition.
What can you tell us, Doctor, about how long she may have in front of her, what she's going through right now?
MARK SIEGEL, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY MEDICAL SCHOOL: Well, you know, if she's, in fact, breathing regularly and not shallowly, the way Mr. Felos was saying, then I would say that she probably has some time left. The chances are that over the next week, she will die, but in fact, what happens is the kidneys shut down and you get toxins in the blood, acid and potassium builds up. The patient tries to compensate for that by breathing faster and more shallowly and more irregularly, and the terminology he used is correct. They would start to chain- stoke breathe and you would feel that death is more imminent.
WILLIS: Dr. Siegel, will she suffer?
SIEGEL: Well, you know, that's a very tough question because this has been studied by many neurologists, and the medical literature on this would suggest that she wouldn't suffer, but the problem with that conclusion is that no one has actually ever been there and come back, and so all of this literature is based on observation, and you really can't know for sure. One thing that does happen, over the next few days, is that the kidney puts out something called "uremia," and that actually decreases perception even further than where she is, so that would probably decrease any discomfort, if there is any. WILLIS: And, of course, we were talking about the length of time she might survive in this state. What's your view on this, doctor?
SIEGEL: Well, you know the first question I would ask, which we don't know, he didn't go into this in the press conference, obviously not a physician, but, you know, I need -- would need to know whether her urine output is going down. That's the first sign that the kidneys failing. And as far as her skin is concerned, I think her skin would get quite dry, but putting Vaseline on her lips is a common procedure and that's a good idea. But, I do expect that she will not last than more than another few days, that's my expectation.
WILLIS: Doctor, thank you so much for that. We appreciate your time, today.
SIEGEL: Thank you very much.
WILLIS: Coming up, we'll have more coverage of the Terri Schiavo case. We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HARRIS: Let's talk about the legal aspects of the Schiavo case and where it stands right now with two attorneys who have been following it for weeks, now. David Oblon, he joins us from Washington; and Avery Freidman who's been with us most of the day, is in Cincinnati.
And Avery, we're going to give you a bit of a break and we're going to pick on David for a little bit.
And David, give us a sense, George Felos says the legal struggle is over. Is it?
DAVID OBLON, ATTORNEY: He's right. It was over a long time ago. The parents of Terri Schiavo just didn't realize it, yet. The fact is is (SIC) that the federal law that was recently passed to give the federal courts jurisdiction was unconstitutional, so that was going nowhere. And it to even get to that point, in determining whether it was unconstitutional or not, they lost in the merits of federal law. As far as proceeding for further appeals in the state court, I understand that they may go to the Florida Supreme Court in order to test Judge Greer's decision, that's going nowhere, because ultimately we go back to what we talked about...
HARRIS: Earlier in the week, yeah.
OBLON: Earlier in the week, you know, that there's a pivotal decision. That pivotal decision's who speaks for Terri Schiavo? And that was determined in court, and now the parents come back, repeatedly, to challenge the initial determination that Michael Schiavo speaks for Terri Schiavo, and they can't litigate on a piecemeal basis like this. There's a finality to litigation. You do your best arguments, it's tested in an adversarial setting, and the judge rules. And once the judge rules, you can't come back and say, oh well, had I said this, would this have changed your opinion? HARRIS: Right. Right.
OBLON: Unless it's bona fide newfound evidence that you could not have determined -- you could not have discovered despite due diligence.
HARRIS: Hey, Avery, why didn't we get to the constitutional question about the law that was passed by congress? It seems as though it was just assumed to be constitutional.
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY: Well, you're exactly right, Tony. Despite a lot of commentators saying that the law was unconstitutional, I actually thought it was unconstitutional. What the court did, and I meant the trial court, the federal district judge, Judge James Whittemore, as well as the United States Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit. And they did they twice, they said you know what? For purposes of our evaluation, we're going to assume -- we will presume the constitutionality of this law, but because the Schindlers couldn't -- there was not a likelihood that they could show a violation of federal law, the case was dismissed. So, the general principle, at least in federal law, and in many state laws, is that if a court can resolve an issue without having to deal with the bigger issue, in this case the constitutionality, it will resolve the case short of having to, essentially, blow up the law, and that's really what happened here, Tony.
HARRIS: Yeah, and David, but can't do this normally, can you? You can't -- you don't like the decision that you get in the state courts, go right to the federal courts. You can't do that, can you?
OBLON: No. I'm a litigator, and I win most of my cases, but occasionally I lose, and when I lose, I'll tell you, I want to come right back into court and present an entirely different legal strategy, completely different evidence, and go right back in there fighting. And if I were to do that, I would get sanctioned under ordinary cases. In this particular instance, the judiciary is bending over backwards for Schindlers' parents.
HARRIS: Right.
OBLON: I'm glad you're doing it. It does give the parent's a degree of peace and degree of hope for a period of time, but at the end of the day, judges make their decisions, they do it based on adversarial forum, and the decision once it's made, it's final.
HARRIS: Yeah, and Avery, the issue here was that the federal courts were looking at, were Terri Schiavo's constitutional rights protected? Civil rights...
FRIEDMAN: Well, all right, Tony, it's even a little bit more defined. I had to -- I sat in a chair for three hours for CNN doing analysis as we heard every member of Congress talking about feeding tubes and religious freedom, all sorts of things, but when it got right down to it, what they were talking about, and what the federal law that got passed was, were two different things. The federal claim that existed is whether or not there was a process available to the Schindlers.
HARRIS: Right.
FRIEDMAN: And I'm taking a very legalistic case and putting it into shirt-sleeve English. In one sense, what the federal court said is this -- if the Schindlers had a chance to put on evidence, cross- examine and appeal, there is due process under the federal constitution and that's all the federal law did. That's it.
HARRIS: Yeah. David, was the rule of law preserved here?
OBLON: The rule of law was certainly preserved. And that doesn't mean that you have to be happy with the result. There are alternatives, and we are in a process of three branches of government. One of the branches of government is the legislature. If you're unhappy with the results, you can change the law. There is no magic saying that the husband gets to speak for the wife as a default basis. You could change the law and say that any family member, unless there is unanimity for death gets life. You can't default on life. That is something that the Florida legislature was considering and they decided not to pass a bill for.
HARRIS: And Avery, quickly, would you add anything to that?
FRIEDMAN: Well, they did -- yeah, very quickly, the Federal Court of Appeals did something that nobody expected to see, because we heard a lot of, actually the phony commentators talking about cruel and unusual punishment. And you know what? The Federal Court of Appeals put that to bed. Those sort of issues deal with criminal cases, they have nothing to do with civil case, so that for all the people that want to engage in rhetoric and, frankly, phony arguments, indeed the federal court ended that and said it has no application in the Terri Schiavo case.
HARRIS: There they are, Dave Oblon, and Avery Freidman, our legal eagles on the case for us, this afternoon. Gentlemen, thank you both.
OLBON: Thanks for having us.
FRIEDMAN: Nice to be with you, Tony.
HARRIS: We'll take a break and come back with more CNN SATURDAY right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WILLIS: Welcome back to CNN SATURDAY. We are spending the afternoon talking about Terri Schiavo. Many, many press conferences held today. Right now we're going to go, though; to John Zarrella in Pinellas Park where the hospice is located where she is reported to be resting comfortably.
John, what are you hearing?
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Gerri, let me -- let me fill you in, first, on a couple developments that have happened here. During the course of the press conference that was going on with George Felos, there was an instance about 30 minutes ago, or so ago, where police thought they might have had, quote, "a breach in the security," here, so what they did was they closed down the street. It is reopened now, and we can see -- you can see, behind me, that there is a lot more police presence here at the entrance of the hospice, two, three rows deep now of police on this side, a couple rows deep of police at my right, at the two entrances. So they have stepped up security, here. That's all they will say. They will not say what level of security they have, but in fact they did reopen the street, but needless to say, there is concern, and quite frankly there are probably plain clothes police who are milling about within the crowd. They did get word from within the -- from within the crowd that they thought there might be some sort of a breach of security about to happen. So, genuine concern about that. And the ongoing security, certainly, very intense as the hours go by and we get, obviously, closer and closer to Terri Schiavo's passing away, at this point.
Now, what's really interesting is the characterizations on the one side of George Felos, who said that, you know, in all the years he's seen her, she looked more at peace and beauty than he's ever seen her: Calm, peaceful, resting comfortably. Now, Bobby Schindler, her brother, came out from the hospice a while ago and made a very brief statement. And his statement would almost indicate to you just the opposite.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S BROTHER: For every person out there that believes it was wrong for Congress and the governor to get involved in my sister's case, they need to go inside, right now, and look at my sister and when they come out you need to ask them if the Congress and the governor were wrong for getting involved in my sister's case. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZARRELLA: Now, Terri's father, Bob Senior, went in, had also seen her earlier today, and Bob Senior had came out and when he spoke, he said that Terri was putting up, what he termed, "a remarkable struggle to live."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB SCHIAVO, SR., TERRI SCHIAVO'S FATHER: And she's doing remarkably well, under the circumstances. As a matter of fact, I was surprised. So she's putting up a tremendous battle to live, and it's quite obvious she's not throwing the towel in. She doesn't want to die, and she is starting -- she's showing signs of, over a week now, of starvation and lack of hydration, but I can tell you and assure you she is fighting like hell to stay alive. And I want the powers to be to know that. It's not too late to save her. So, anyone that has the authority to come in and to save Terri, they can do it. It's not too late. So she's fighting, and we're asking you to fight with her and help her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ZARRELLA: Now, the differences in opinions, obviously, Mr. Felos addressed that, but it does underscore what has been going on, here, in the long years of a legal battle, the two sides very much at odds, no common ground, very little common ground in this fight, and even as far as we are now, just to what her condition is here in her final days, there isn't any real agreement there on how Terri Schiavo apparently is doing.
I thought it was interesting in that news conference, too, though, you know, "her death is not imminent," George Felos said, and that is pretty much what we had heard right along from experts, that it could be up to 14 days, that she's still breathing regularly. So it certainly appears as if she is not, at least according to George Felos, at this point in any imminent danger.
So Gerri, we're going to keep watching it here. Again, the crowds of not exactly as we would have expected, today. I thought it would be a lot more people here, given that it's a Saturday, but not any more than what we've seen during the other day -- Gerri.
WILLIS: John Zarrella, thank you for that.
HARRIS: And this just in to CNN. We want to turn around some pictures we received just a short time ago, some dramatic pictures, in fact, the aftermath of an explosion in Beirut, Lebanon. And Arab television stations are quoting security officials as saying it was caused by a bomb. Now, firefighters are on the scene, trying to control the fire, as you can see here. We've seen police, we've seen soldiers with rifles pushing people back in the streets. We've seen at least one ambulance on the scene, but we have no idea of injuries, at this point in time. The explosion seems to be in a business or residential area, and we're told it's a predominantly Christian area of Beirut.
Now, we don't know, at this point, if this explosion is any way tied to reaction to the recent assassination, the assassination, last month, of the former prime minister of Lebanon, Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. We certainly will be asking those questions and finding that out. But once again, just to recap the stories, these are pictures, just in to CNN, of the aftermath of an explosion in Beirut in a predominantly Christian area of the city. We will continue to follow developments and bring you the latest information. We'll take a break and come right back with more of CNN SATURDAY.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
