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Nancy Grace

Johnnie Cochran Remembered; Michael Jackson Trial Continues

Aired March 29, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, Johnnie Cochran, the defense attorney best known for the case of O.J. Simpson has passed away. Johnnie was 67.
And also in California, Michael Jackson`s defense team trying to recover from what could be a knock-out blow by trial judge Rodney Melville.

Plus, a gag order lifted in the murder case against Barton Corbin, a well-to-do dentist in the metro Atlanta area. Corbin facing serious murder charges. At issue, his wife, Jennifer. She turned up dead just as she announced she was leaving her husband. He claimed his wife committed suicide. But it didn`t take a lot of digging for cops to realize the scenario`s very familiar. Corbin`s girlfriend in dental school turned up dead, too, suicide.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

Michael Jackson`s defense team facing their worst nightmare: More little boys. The jury will hear about several other allegations of child sexual molestation. A nuclear bomb dropped right on the defense.

And in another case, State v. dentist Barton Corbin, gag order lifted. The Georgia dentist behind bars on charges he killed his wife, the mother of his two children. And the unsolved murder 14 years ago of his girlfriend, Dolly Hearn.

But first, tonight, a dark night in the legal world. Famed defense attorney Johnnie Cochran is dead after battling an inoperable brain tumor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNNIE COCHRAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s no disguise. It makes no sense. It doesn`t fit. If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: How many nights did I personally give Johnny H-E-double-hell over that?

Tonight, in Boston, defense attorney and Harvard law professor, my colleague, Alan Dershowitz; in Massachusetts, from the Innocence Project, joining us, Barry Scheck; in Santa Maria, California, investigative reporter Art Harris, with the Insider; also with us, "Inside Edition`s" senior correspondent, Jim Moret.

Welcome to everyone.

I want to first go to Art Harris. Art, you covered the O.J. Simpson trial inside and outside. You covered Johnnie Cochran`s every move. What can you tell us tonight?

ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Nancy, he was a giant. He was such a human, compassionate man, who could go into a trial of murders, rapists, no matter who he had, and come out with a clean heart, and a clean suit, and a clean soul. This was someone who was a master at sizing up a jury and playing it for what he needed.

In the Simpson case, who else could have gone into a case where you had a client whose DNA was placed at a double-murder scene and win an acquittal? He was a master at exploiting and using the media and deputizing the public in the age of 24-hour cable in a way that no lawyer has ever done.

And he wrote the playbook that has been used in so many criminal defenses since then. In Blake, in Jackson, you`re hearing conspiracy. You remember the three c`s, contamination, corruption, conspiracy. How many echoes do we hear of Johnnie Cochran`s strategy that was raised in the O.J. Simpson days?

It has made legal history, Nancy.

GRACE: I want to go my colleague and normally, my sparring partner, Alan Dershowitz, Harvard law professor.

Alan, do you recall when you first started working on the so-called "Dream Team"?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR: Well, it wasn`t a dream. At that point, it was a nightmare. Nobody was getting along with anybody. And along came Johnnie Cochran, and he really brought everybody together.

I mean, Art mentioned the playbook. Actually, all the lawyers today are doing it very differently. They`re all Lone Rangers. They think they can do it by themselves, but Johnnie was great because he knew what he didn`t know. He knew that he was not a law lawyer. He was a fact lawyer. He was perfectly...

GRACE: That`s a good way to put it, Alan. That`s a good way to put it, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: Yes, he was perfectly willing to use other lawyers and to take a backseat when it came to DNA, to Barry Scheck, when it came to legal arguments, to me and Gerry Uelmen. He knew what he knew, and he knew what he didn`t know.

And a lot of the lawyers today don`t want to share the limelight. And they are losing important issues, even today in the Jackson case. Those issues should have been argued by a Gerry Uelmen, not by the fact lawyer or the man who`s going to present the case to the jury.

GRACE: Well, you know, Alan. That`s a rare, rare quality, because most lawyers think they know everything. They really do.

DERSHOWITZ: It is. Yes, and Johnnie knew he didn`t.

GRACE: When it comes to saving a client, or in my case, prosecuting, saving the state`s case, you`ve got to hand over to experts. But I`ve got to tell you. He did the same thing in the Sean "Puff Daddy" Combs case, remember? He got Ben Brafman. He got a crew on board. He created a dream team, got another acquittal.

Hey, take a listen to this, Alan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What about Mark Fuhrman?

COCHRAN: Well, Mark Fuhrman, I think the same thing. I mean, you have to be consistent in this situation. Mark Fuhrman...

GRACE: You think it`s OK for him to make a book?

COCHRAN: Mark Fuhrman has the right to publish that book. He`s done it. It became number one. I don`t agree with anything he had to say, but he`s a perjurer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you imagine, Alan, Johnnie and I arguing? You know, he helped me get my first TV job, Johnnie Cochran. He and I sat -- oh, bad hair for me. He, of course, always looked great.

Alan, Johnnie and I sat on a panel of so-called legal experts here in New York many, many years ago. 1996, Alan. And he was the big guy. Remember, he had just won the Simpson trial. I was nobody from nowhere slogging away trying shoplifting cases. And he was this big star.

And we sat on this panel together, Alan. We got into a huge fight, me, Johnnie Cochran and Roy Black, who was fresh off the William Kennedy Smith win, but it was in good nature. We had the best time arguing. Next thing I know, "Cochran and Grace" was launched on Court TV. If it hadn`t been for Johnnie, I may still be trying shopliftings right now.

DERSHOWITZ: He was the most generous person. He shared everything. I`ll give you an example. Everybody gave him credit for the limerick, "If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit." But Gerry Uelmen made that up, and he always gave credit to Gerry Uelmen. He said, "Hey, I know when to borrow things from smarter people."

He always gave credit where credit was due. He gave credit to Barry Scheck for the DNA. He gave credit to me for some of the legal arguments. He always shared credit. He was a generous person.

GRACE: Now I want to go to Jim Moret who is also with us tonight.

Jim, you and Art, as well, Art Harris, covered the O.J. Simpson trial from the get-go. You spent a lot of time with Cochran. Thoughts?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": I spent a lot of time with him, not only during the O.J. Simpson days, but even earlier in my days as a local Los Angeles reporter. Johnnie Cochran was, as Mr. Dershowitz said, he was very generous, generous of his time. And he was very gracious.

And as Alan mentioned earlier, he would give credit to others. But the key with Johnnie Cochran was in the delivery. You know, he delivered that line, "If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit."

GRACE: Tell it, Jim.

MORET: He had a level of elegance and class.

GRACE: Tell it. Tell it. It was all in the delivery.

MORET: All in the delivery. But there was substance there, too. He wasn`t just flash, although he dressed impeccably and he was as well known for his...

GRACE: Oh, god. What about those ties? What about those ties?

MORET: ... his ties and his rainbow-color suits. But you know what? He had the substance to back it up. And he surrounded himself with people, as Alan said, that were his equals or greater in other fields. And he shared the spotlight, but he really deserved the attention and the accolades. And I think he got the respect, frankly, from fellow attorneys throughout the country as well as in Los Angeles.

GRACE: I have to tell you this, Jim. It took me a while, because every time I looked at him, I blamed him for the double murder. That`s hard to do when it`s your co-anchor.

MORET: No, I know that. I would see the two of you spar quite a bit.

GRACE: He won my respect. Before then, defense attorneys, I wouldn`t give them the time of day. But from Cochran, I learned why juries were so fascinated.

Take a listen to this, Jim.

MORET: Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COCHRAN: Some crimes aren`t solved. Evidence is a smoking gun, there`s some other theory. I mean, they`re saying to you, look, we have problems here.

GRACE: Maybe the DNA was not as strong as he wished, but when you get a one-in-a-hundred match-up as opposed to one-in-a-million and you combine that match...

COCHRAN: Who says you`re going to get that?

GRACE: Wait a minute -- and you combine that to all the other circumstantial evidence you have, you might have a pretty good case.

COCHRAN: That`s wishful thinking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, another thing, to Art Harris, in our building over at Court TV, Art, he was just as much of a gentleman to the cleaning people as to the assistant producers, the floor people, his co-anchors, as he was to his boss.

And you know another thing, Art? As much as I gave him heck day in, day out -- we fought just most recently about the Michael Jackson case. We were arguing about that like two wet cats in a barrel on LARRY KING one night. When his wife would walk in the room, Dale, he would light up.

And you know, he was very forward-thinking about women in the workplace. You know, his wife is a business woman. And he supported her being a business woman. And of course, he was the big star, Art, in "Cochran and Grace." There was no doubt about that. But you know, he never once rubbed it in, never.

HARRIS: And he never looked down at all on you, Nancy. He treated you as such an equal.

GRACE: Yes, he did.

HARRIS: He was gracious in and out of the courtroom. And in the courtroom, he actually did what you do -- which I saw you do in Atlanta often in front of a jury -- you preached. He preached to the jury and much the way you see one of these great preachers on a Sunday morning.

And it was amazing. You would watch them nod. He was with them. They were with him. And he just had this sixth sense. They liked him. And as you know, you liked him. There was not anybody who didn`t like Johnnie Cochran.

And to echo Alan Dershowitz, who was so brilliant as part of this "dream team," everyone looked up to Johnnie. He was the quarterback. He called the plays. And to have that much brainpower and that, you know, that much ego in one room and still to have it work flawlessly was something to behold, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, I`ll tell you one guy he could really snow over, always the judge. Somehow, I don`t care what case it was, the judge always believed everything Cochran said. I don`t care what case, from O.J. Simpson to Geronimo Pratt, one of his prize cases. He got a murder case reversed. Incredible lawyer.

Tonight, I`m very sad to report the death of my colleague, Johnnie Cochran. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Today in the Michael Jackson child molestation trial, the jury heard how the little boy`s mother made a frantic phone call claiming she and her children were being held against their will at Neverland Ranch.

Tonight, in Atlanta, defense attorney, Renee Rockwell; in New York, defense attorney Mercedes Colwin; and psychologist Caryn Stark.

But first, let`s go straight back to Jim Moret in Santa Maria, California. Jim, bring me up-to-date, friend.

MORET: The main witness on the stand today was a man named Jamie Masada who owns a Los Angeles comedy club. And he was brought on basically to support the prosecution theory that the mother and son were not a mother-son grifter team who were out to get celebrities and bilk them of money.

This person said that he really liked this boy. The boy was in a comedy camp that Jamie Masada had set up. The boy and his brother and sister were all from a very poor family. They were in a comedy camp that Jamie Masada had established for underprivileged kids.

He got to know the family. He got to know the mother. He said she was a wonderful person, never asked him for money, as the defense had claimed, but the estranged husband, now the ex-husband, was the person who was asking for money all the time.

And that really flows perfectly into the prosecution theory that the mother and son are the victims in this case. They`re not the bad guys. And more importantly, this person said that he got a call, a frantic call one night, when the family was at Neverland. And the mother basically said, "You have got to get me and my family out of here. We`re being held against our will." And this goes right into the prosecution theory of false imprisonment.

GRACE: Well, you know, that also goes in hand-in-hand with what another comic said, the female comic, who took the stand earlier. Didn`t she say something similar to that, Jim Moret?

MORET: Yes, she did. She said that she also got a call, a very cryptic phone call, frantic, frightful.

GRACE: Right.

MORET: And she said it dovetails perfectly.

GRACE: Let me go to Renee Rockwell. She`s a veteran criminal defense attorney in multiple jurisdictions in the country.

Renee, you have got a count, a multiple-count indictment. It`s not just about child molestation. It`s not just about giving wine to a little boy. It`s also about keeping these people there on Neverland Ranch. So how are they going to show that, if the mom stayed there willingly and spent some of Jackson`s money?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you talk about a multiple-count indictment. And it`s interesting because I`ve always had the feeling that maybe there`s one juror in this entire case that`s going to want to hold out for an acquittal.

And Nancy, you are well aware of situations where jurors dig in, maybe at the end of the day, the jury could potentially be locked because they won`t decide, they won`t make a decision. But when you have other allegations such as imprisonment -- these are facts that they have brought out, these phone calls.

This is not a staged incident. This is not a family that`s trying to extort money. This is something that a jury could sit there, maybe not make a decision, but say, you know what? Maybe they didn`t do this, but they did that. And at the end of the day, it`s just enough to get a conviction on something.

GRACE: You know, Renee Rockwell, that is very shrewd trial strategy, because, as we said, a multiple-count indictment on Michael Jackson. If they want to reject, say, for instance, the child molestation claims, how can they disbelieve two separate comics who say the mom called them way back when, going, "We want to get out of here, but we can`t get away from Neverland"?

You`re right. They can split the baby, Renee. Not guilty on some, guilty on others to make the prosecution happy. I see it happen, a split baby.

Renee Rockwell with us in Atlanta. We have got to go to a quick break.

Very quickly, to "Trial Tracking": The Boy Scouts of America`s former director of programming, Douglas Smith, Jr., with the Boy Scouts for 39 years, charged with downloading child porn. Ouch. Douglas, a former Eagle Scout, will face a federal judge Wednesday expected to plead guilty.

In another trial today, the case of five-year-old Samantha Runnion alleged kidnapper and killer underway in Santa Ana, California. The prosecutor says DNA from the little girl`s tear drops was found in Alejandro Avila`s car. The defense says it was planted.

But this isn`t his first go-round in a courtroom. 2001, Avila acquitted of two counts child molestation. The defense also claimed then that evidence had been planted, that time, pornography on Avila`s computer.

One night on "LARRY KING LIVE," his lawyer defended his client and claimed the victims were coached to lie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN POZZA, ATTORNEY FOR ALEJANDRO AVILA: We were able to talk to the jurors after they had come back with the acquittal. They basically said there were a number of issues, but certainly the credibility of the children was put into question.

GRACE: You accused them of being coached, didn`t you? I can see it right here in black and white.

POZZA: Well, absolutely. That was absolutely one of our defenses. And I have an ethical obligation to zealously represent my clients. And that`s what I do. And I don`t have a problem looking at myself in the mirror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes, well, your client got out of jail because of your defense and allegedly killed this girl. The assistant prosecutor says jurors in the Runnion case will hear previous child molestation charges against Avila.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: My greatest inspiration comes from kids. Every song I quite, every dance I do, all the poetry I write is all inspired from that level of innocence, that consciousness of purity. And children have that. I see God in the face of children. And, man, I just love being around that all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s from the ABC version of the Martin Bashir documentary shown to the Jackson jury. When he says he sees God in the face of children, but when he looks in the mirror, he sees Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. This weekend on the Reverend Jesse Jackson`s radio show, Jackson compared himself to the human rights leader and civil rights leaders.

Caryn Stark, I think I need a shrink. What does this mean, psychologically speaking, that Jackson is comparing himself not only to Mandela, but from my hometown, Martin Luther King, the Martin Luther King?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, what it means, Nancy -- and it`s a good question -- is that he sees himself as being a hero. This is a very narcissistic man who makes his own rules, who believes the world rotates around him, and so now he`s comparing himself to these people. I`m wondering why he`s not comparing himself to Gandhi. What exactly is heroic about Michael Jackson where he would feel that he can compare himself to them?

GRACE: And to Renee Rockwell, how many times in Atlanta do you drive by the Martin Luther King Memorial, the slain civil rights leader? Now, Renee, there`s a gag order in place. What do you do with a client charged with child molestation who goes on a national radio show and compares himself to MLK and Mandela?

ROCKWELL: I would imagine, Nancy, that you would have to contain him at any cost. Certainly, I`m sure he`s sorry that he made other television appearances.

GRACE: Oh, yes.

Let me quickly go to Art Harris. Art, of course, the jury will never know that Jackson`s on the airwaves comparing himself to MLK and Mandela. Let`s get back to the facts. Were you surprised, Art, when you found out there were seven other alleged molestation victims, five other cases coming in front of this jury?

HARRIS: Well, I was -- I knew about the number of them. But I did not know how many would be allowed. The judge, of course, is going to allow five cases, which is huge. There are going to be a lot of thumbs required to put in the dike in this case now.

But talking about the conspiracy raised by Michael Jackson, Nancy, I couldn`t help but think about Johnnie Cochran and the whole conspiracy era he ushered in as a criminal defense lawyer with O.J. Simpson. It just hearkens back. It goes back to, you know, the seeds of strategy that go back a long way. And now suddenly, we are seeing Michael Jackson adopt conspiracy as a reason.

GRACE: I`m glad you brought that up. I`m glad you brought that up.

Back to Renee, quickly, Renee, when Cochran was on this case and that `93 charge came up, the $20 million-plus settlement, somehow -- I don`t know how Cochran did it -- he avoided an indictment. Not so in this case.

ROCKWELL: He avoided the indictment but you see that this nasty, ugly, little case may be rearing its head again if similar transactions come in, things from the past come in that may not have been discovered at any other point in criminal prosecutions.

And, Nancy, you well know, when similar transactions come in, you don`t have one trial, you have two trials, or three, or four, or five, depending.

GRACE: Or in this case, six.

ROCKWELL: Or seven. Another thing that`s interesting is that, not only do you have the children testifying, but you have -- and I know you`ll disagree with me, Nancy -- I call it third parties, people that testify that are not victims.

GRACE: Well, you know what? We`ll fight about that when we come back. You call it third party, I call it eyewitness. You say potato, I say potato.

Here at NANCY GRACE, everybody, we want you to take a look at Freddie Rodriguez, shot June 2003, 1-888-813-8389.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Thomas Roberts. And here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Well-known defense attorney Johnnie Cochran has passed away at the age of 67 at his home in L.A., apparently from an inoperable brain tumor. Cochran was an early advocate for victims of police abuse. But he gained worldwide fame 10 years ago for his successful and controversial defense of O.J. Simpson who was accused of murdering his ex-wife and her friend.

In Indonesia, family members are using bare hands and crowbars to search for loved ones in the rubble after yesterday`s massive earthquake in the Indian Ocean. The death toll stands at about 330 now, but government officials in the region say it could climb to as high as 2,000.

First Lady Laura Bush is on her way now to Afghanistan. She is due in Kabul tomorrow and plans to meet with President Hamid Karzai and receive a briefing on educational opportunities for Afghan women. She also plans to have dinner with U.S. forces at Bagram Air Base.

That is the news for now. I`m Thomas Roberts. We take you back for more of NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: Looking back on that experience, what do you say to yourself now? Because we all have done things in our lives and we say, "I don`t know what I was thinking, or I didn`t know what I was thinking, or that was a great lesson for me." I don`t know. What do you say to yourself when you look at that period in your life?

LISA MARIE PRESLEY, EX-WIFE OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Holy mother of God.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Lisa Marie Presley describing her time married to Michael Jackson.

Welcome back, everybody.

Very quickly to Mercedes Colwin, defense attorney, a veteran trial lawyer, Mercedes, because these similar transactions have now been allowed in, the jury`s going to hear about five other alleged child molestation victims. Does Jackson now have to take the stand or is it even more difficult for him to take the stand?

MERCEDES COLWIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s going to be more difficult for him to take the stand, because I think that the trouble is going to be he is going to be facing some of these other allegations that have never been tried in court. A best approach for a defense attorney to do is to take each one of these accusers -- and I know that some of the accusers are not going to come forward. And in fact, you`re going to have extraneous testimony from third parties...

GRACE: You mean eyewitnesses?

COLWIN: ... eyewitnesses. We`ll battle that one out, too.

But essentially, go through each of them and just start to discredit them, and erode their credibility by going through -- "Well, it`s been a long time. You didn`t really see actually. How far away were you from this alleged incident? You couldn`t really recall as you sit here today," and try to erode their credibility that way.

I know that some of these individuals that are going to come forward had some financial interest. And I have to say, what juries hate, these conspiracy theories. If they`re going to sit there and listen to this grandiose conspiracy theory against Michael Jackson, they are not going to be in favor of it.

I think that they are extraordinary uncomfortable. They want to deal with the facts. I think the only way to do it is just to continue to erode their credibility, and just deal with it in terms of timing, and go through these one at a time in that way, and not really develop this conspiracy theory, which I don`t think -- I think it`s problematic.

GRACE: But you know, Renee Rockwell, you called them third-party witnesses. I call them eyewitnesses because, Renee, when you have got an adult say they`ve seen not one, two, three, but four little boys on different occasions in bed with Jackson and then see both their underwear beside the bed, do I need to hear from the four boys? Do I need to know more, Renee? Am I missing something?

ROCKWELL: Like Mercedes said, the credibility is going to be at issue. And the defense team is going to keep screaming that there`s financial interest involved, that there were with the other parties, that perhaps the third party -- I think the third party`s the mother, Nancy...

GRACE: Yes.

ROCKWELL: ... that would be testifying to it. Now, the theory is that there was financial interest involved.

So it`s not like the victim getting on the stand and scrambling around and trying to remember exactly what happened under the sheets, if that`s what the facts are. It`s a mother trying to just tell it like she saw it. And of course, there`s time and there`s prejudice that`s going to be involved there.

GRACE: Well, let me go to Art Harris. Art, what`s the breakdown on these five incidents? We have got one boy who`s coming back to testify. You`ve got, I think, two mothers...

HARRIS: Yes.

GRACE: ... and two eyewitnesses?

HARRIS: The one that`s going to be the most powerful, I`m told, is the son of a former maid who was touched not in as intimate a way as the `93 victim or the current accuser, but who is nonetheless supposed to be a very powerful witness.

And the mother apparently caught him in a sleeping bag with Jackson and found three $100 bills in his pocket, courtesy allegedly of Michael Jackson, and was very uncomfortable but didn`t raise some of these things because it was not her place. She was his maid.

So this could be a very, very powerful witness. But as they all fall together, you should see or expect to see a pattern of grooming the kids and, of course, how they treat the parents and the mother.

GRACE: And very quickly to Jim Moret, before we switch gears to the double murder in the dentist in the Georgia case, Jim Moret, break it down for me very quickly. I have got the boy in the case in chief, all right, 13-years-old at the time. I have got another little boy who`s going to be a similar transaction, two mothers?

MORET: All of the boys -- all of the boys are between the ages of ten and thirteen at the time. Let me just pick up from what Art said, as well, because the boy who`s now a man in his 20s who`s going to testify. The thing that makes him really tough to break is the fact that he`s now a youth pastor. He is married. When you talk about credibility, that`s the person you want on the stand for the prosecution.

GRACE: Good point, Jim Moret, there in the courthouse every day with "Inside Edition." Also with us there, Art Harris, with the Insider.

Switching gears to another trial, in a very hotly contested murder case near Atlanta, Georgia, the trial judge lifts a gag order. Barton Corbin -- he`s a Georgia dentist -- faces not one, but two murder charges, one in the December shooting of his wife, Jennifer, and two, the 1990 shooting death of Corbin`s then-girlfriend Dolly Hearn.

Tonight, from Atlanta, Jennifer Corbin`s father, Max Barber, her sister, Rajel Caldwell.

Welcome to both of you.

Let me quickly go to Mr. Barber. Sir, when did you first realize things were amiss? I don`t believe you ever believed your daughter committed suicide.

MAX BARBER, FATHER OF JENNIFER CORBIN: No, I never have. I knew things were not going well with that marriage, probably 30 to 40 days prior to her death. We heard unusual things, squabbling about a credit card. Jenny was feeling alienated from him somewhat because she was very active on the Internet and he would -- he took displeasure to that.

Thanksgiving, a week prior to her death, they had a major altercation. And that altercation happened in their car on their way home. And of course, she called me immediately. And I asked her to please pack up the boys` clothes and immediately come to our house. Instead, she decided to go to my daughter, Heather`s, home.

GRACE: Rajel Caldwell is also with us, Jennifer Corbin`s sister.

Rajel, welcome, and I sure am sorry...

RAJEL CALDWELL, SISTER OF JENNIFER CORBIN: Thank you.

GRACE: ... for the loss of your sister.

CALDWELL: Thank you.

GRACE: Did you guys know that he had a girlfriend lurking in the past that had also committed suicide?

CALDWELL: No. When we learned of that woman, it was a shock to the entire family.

GRACE: Who was taking care of the little boys? Did one of them find their mom dead?

CALDWELL: Yes, yes.

GRACE: Oh, no.

CALDWELL: And the boys are with Heather and Doug, and they are doing as good as it can be right now.

GRACE: To Max Barber -- this is Jennifer`s father -- what happened that Thanksgiving before Jennifer died?

BARBER: The Thanksgiving prior to her death, the entire family met at Heather`s home, and we had a wonderful day. It was a very long day. But Bart didn`t join into the festivities. He stayed by himself mostly, did not interject much with the family, spent a lot of time downstairs by himself in the basement of the home.

And he promptly, before 6 o`clock, decided he was going home and told Jennifer that he wanted to go. Jennifer was very polite. She excused herself, got the boys, and they left and went home.

GRACE: And I bet the minute the door shut behind them, everybody said, "OK, something`s wrong there."

BARBER: Absolutely, we knew something was wrong, something was amiss, but we didn`t know what it was.

GRACE: Yes, yes.

BARBER: We didn`t know what was bothering him.

GRACE: Got to go to break. Is he facing two murder charges or just the murder of your daughter?

BARBER: He is facing two murder charges.

GRACE: OK, OK, I didn`t know if they were going to use Dolly Hearn`s as a similar transaction or try him for both. We are talking about a Georgia dentist, a very well-to-do Georgia dentist. His wife, he said, committed suicide. Her family never believed.

And then it was discovered 14 years before his girlfriend committed suicide. He`s facing double-murder charges. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBER: Well, occasionally, they`ll bring up their mom. Yes, they bring up Jen`s name.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Max Barber, Jennifer Corbin`s father. He is with us tonight. Corbin`s husband on trial for murder. That trial is scheduled. But not just one murder, two. His girlfriend, Dolly Hearn, turned up dead 14 years ago. They had dated throughout dental school.

You know what`s interesting in this case, Renee, on the outside, this guy looks like a real catch. He is good looking. He is well-to-do, got the home, the cars, the dental degree. That`s a whole lot of cha-ching, money. But he`s got this dead girlfriend lurking in the past and now this. How much will looks, and money, and charm mean to a jury?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, I`m being real careful because of the gag order and the partially lifted...

GRACE: Gag order lifted. I`m sorry. Are you a witness in that case?

ROCKWELL: Anyway, I was just discussing with Rajel that, had there only been one case, the present case with Jennifer, had there been only one case, the case 14 years ago, you`d have nothing. Obviously, you had no prosecution of the case 14 years ago until the exact same set of facts allegedly are going to be put forward; two revolvers, two suicides, two relationships on the rocks. Not a good thing for a defense team. As a matter of fact, it would be staggering. And my understanding is that both cases are going forward.

GRACE: I mean, Rajel Caldwell -- this is Jennifer Corbin`s sister -- her eight-year-old son found his mother. Now, when a jury hears that, they`re going to be incensed. Rajel, is this a death-penalty case?

CALDWELL: You know, Nancy, I have no idea. We are doing exactly what the attorneys tell us to do.

GRACE: Yes.

CALDWELL: We do exactly what the D.A. tells us to do. And we`re going to follow the guidance of the Gwinnett County offices that are directly taking care of this case.

GRACE: Rajel, I asked your father about last Thanksgiving. And he described the incident there at the home when they left. What, if anything, happened after your sister left with her husband?

CALDWELL: The kids and I had spent some time together. And after Jennifer left, I just pursued some other, you know, family things in the house. And it wasn`t until after the phone call that we knew that Jennifer was coming back to the home.

GRACE: What phone call?

CALDWELL: The phone call that she was on her way back to the house, that she was coming back to spend the night.

GRACE: Why? Why was she coming back to the house?

CALDWELL: She did not tell me at the time. We had a heart-to-heart talk when she came back to Heather`s home. We sat on the couch, and we discussed what happened.

GRACE: What happened?

CALDWELL: And she told me that Bart punched her, and that he was extremely abusive verbally to her, and that it happened in front of the children, and that she said that she just could not deal with him anymore.

GRACE: Now, this was Thanksgiving. How much later?

CALDWELL: This was in the evening. This was after.

GRACE: Until Jennifer`s death?

CALDWELL: It wasn`t much longer. It was December 4th.

GRACE: That`s right. That was only a couple -- OK, a couple of weeks later.

To Caryn Stark, psychologist, neither Jennifer Corbin nor the girlfriend, Dolly Hearn, no one believed they committed suicide.

STARK: They have no history of a suicidal kind of profile, Nancy. If you take a look at them, these are two women who don`t have a history of depression. One was excited about her career. The other one is a mother who loves her children. The only thing they have in common is that they`re both going through a breakup with this man and then somehow they wind up killing themselves. It doesn`t make sense.

GRACE: Mercedes, isn`t it just too much of a coincidence for any defense attorney to tackle, that both of these women in his life commit suicide just around the time of the break-up with him? He`s the common denominator.

COLWIN: There`s a challenge there. But the way they`re going to attack it is look at the forensics. And there are no forensics in this case. In fact, even the pathologist that looked at Dolly Hearn`s body back 14 years ago could not rule out a suicide.

The same is not of Jennifer. The pathologist hasn`t come forward with that just yet, but there is no gun residue. There is absolutely no evidence that he had anything to do with these murders.

But you are right. It is extremely coincidental. And I think the jurors are going to be swayed by that potentially. But they also have to sit back and say to themselves, "Well, what`s the link other than these two women?" And when you have pathologists that haven`t ruled one out as a potential suicide.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Right.

Back to Max Barber -- this is Jennifer`s father with us tonight -- was she afraid of her husband, Bart Corbin?

BARBER: Oh, we`ve thought about that. I`ve asked Jenny on more than one occasion if she had any fears. And you know, she didn`t. She told me repeatedly that she could handle Bart. I felt that she thought she was comfortable and safe because of the two boys.

GRACE: What`s amazing to me -- back to Rajel Caldwell -- this is Jennifer`s sister -- if the punching incident is true, if the verbal abuse is true, then it would have meant nothing to this man for his son to find his mom dead.

CALDWELL: The verbal abuse is something that, with Bart, it was something that was very common. When it came down to Jennifer telling us that Bart had actually harmed her physically, that was when everything changed. It was something new that she had expressed to us.

GRACE: What`s really grabbing me here is that, if he would punch her in front of the boys and verbally abuse her in front of the boys -- you know, very often the defense would be, Renee, well, a father would never let his own children find the mom dead. But if he would punch her and verbally abuse her in front of the boys, it`s not that much of a stretch, Renee.

ROCKWELL: And certainly that will be used. And these are not -- these are eyewitnesses. I don`t know if the state would go so far as to use the children, but they -- I mean, they could testify as to exactly what they saw when this happened.

GRACE: You know, and the timeline is so significant, as Rajel just pointed out.

Rajel, you said the beating, the punching took place Thanksgiving Day. And that makes it less than about ten days later...

CALDWELL: Yes.

GRACE: ... when your sister was shot. Did you know immediately, Rajel, that this was no suicide?

CALDWELL: Absolutely. When I got the hysterical phone call that Jennifer`s life was gone, it never once occurred to me that I didn`t know what had happened. I knew what happened. I knew what happened.

GRACE: Well, we are waiting to determine whether the district attorney will announce that they are pursuing the death penalty in what is now two counts of murder against a very well-to-do dentist in the Atlanta metro area.

Very quickly, to "Trial Tracking": Day 12, no food, no water for Terri Schiavo. Her parents have exhausted nearly all legal options. Terri`s feeding tube removed March 18. Still, her mother is not giving up, urging Florida lawmakers to pass legislation to keep her alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY SCHINDLER, MOTHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: I`d like to appeal to the Florida senators to please, please pass this new bill. Terri is still fighting. She is trying with her all her might. She does not want to die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Local news is next for some of you. We`ll be right back.

And remember, live coverage of the Jackson trial tomorrow 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Freddie Rodriquez, shot to death June 2003 driving home in Sacramento, California, just 16-years-old. If you have any information on Freddie Rodriguez, please call the Carole Sund/Carrington foundation, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

Welcome back. We are bringing you information about a double-murder case out of Georgia. A beautiful, young woman found shot to death. Her husband said suicide. But then authorities realized his girlfriend from dental school also committed suicide coincidentally around the time of a break-up, just like his wife.

Very quickly, I want to go back to Jennifer Corbin`s father, the victim in this case.

Mr. Barber, what are your final thoughts tonight as you await the announcement from the district attorney?

BARBER: Well, my final thoughts are I`m glad that the gag order is -- that pressure`s off my shoulders. I prefer to be able to express myself without concern. I know that we`re going to see it as a family that everything is done for our daughter. She`s no longer with us, but her being is with our minds and with our children. We`re looking to step forward and do everything we can to protect the two boys.

GRACE: And very quickly to Rajel Caldwell, Jennifer`s sister. Rajel, did you have any sense of foreboding after that beating incident on Thanksgiving?

CALDWELL: I would have to say I was concerned. I had expressed concern to Jennifer and had talked to her about maybe even moving in with me. And we had entertained that thought. I had plenty of space in my home, and it was close to the boys` school. And she was very concerned about the kids leaving the school.

GRACE: Rajel, how I wish to God she had.

CALDWELL: Yes.

GRACE: To all of you, thank you. I want to thank all of my guests, Max Barber, Rajel Caldwell, Renee Rockwell, Mercedes Colwin, Caryn Stark, earlier, Jim Moret, Alan Dershowitz, Art Harris.

But my biggest thank you as always is to you for being with us tonight, inviting us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from around the world.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I`ll see you here tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern.

Until then, good night, Johnnie Cochran, and good night, friends.

END


Aired March 29, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, Johnnie Cochran, the defense attorney best known for the case of O.J. Simpson has passed away. Johnnie was 67.
And also in California, Michael Jackson`s defense team trying to recover from what could be a knock-out blow by trial judge Rodney Melville.

Plus, a gag order lifted in the murder case against Barton Corbin, a well-to-do dentist in the metro Atlanta area. Corbin facing serious murder charges. At issue, his wife, Jennifer. She turned up dead just as she announced she was leaving her husband. He claimed his wife committed suicide. But it didn`t take a lot of digging for cops to realize the scenario`s very familiar. Corbin`s girlfriend in dental school turned up dead, too, suicide.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

Michael Jackson`s defense team facing their worst nightmare: More little boys. The jury will hear about several other allegations of child sexual molestation. A nuclear bomb dropped right on the defense.

And in another case, State v. dentist Barton Corbin, gag order lifted. The Georgia dentist behind bars on charges he killed his wife, the mother of his two children. And the unsolved murder 14 years ago of his girlfriend, Dolly Hearn.

But first, tonight, a dark night in the legal world. Famed defense attorney Johnnie Cochran is dead after battling an inoperable brain tumor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNNIE COCHRAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s no disguise. It makes no sense. It doesn`t fit. If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: How many nights did I personally give Johnny H-E-double-hell over that?

Tonight, in Boston, defense attorney and Harvard law professor, my colleague, Alan Dershowitz; in Massachusetts, from the Innocence Project, joining us, Barry Scheck; in Santa Maria, California, investigative reporter Art Harris, with the Insider; also with us, "Inside Edition`s" senior correspondent, Jim Moret.

Welcome to everyone.

I want to first go to Art Harris. Art, you covered the O.J. Simpson trial inside and outside. You covered Johnnie Cochran`s every move. What can you tell us tonight?

ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Nancy, he was a giant. He was such a human, compassionate man, who could go into a trial of murders, rapists, no matter who he had, and come out with a clean heart, and a clean suit, and a clean soul. This was someone who was a master at sizing up a jury and playing it for what he needed.

In the Simpson case, who else could have gone into a case where you had a client whose DNA was placed at a double-murder scene and win an acquittal? He was a master at exploiting and using the media and deputizing the public in the age of 24-hour cable in a way that no lawyer has ever done.

And he wrote the playbook that has been used in so many criminal defenses since then. In Blake, in Jackson, you`re hearing conspiracy. You remember the three c`s, contamination, corruption, conspiracy. How many echoes do we hear of Johnnie Cochran`s strategy that was raised in the O.J. Simpson days?

It has made legal history, Nancy.

GRACE: I want to go my colleague and normally, my sparring partner, Alan Dershowitz, Harvard law professor.

Alan, do you recall when you first started working on the so-called "Dream Team"?

ALAN DERSHOWITZ, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR: Well, it wasn`t a dream. At that point, it was a nightmare. Nobody was getting along with anybody. And along came Johnnie Cochran, and he really brought everybody together.

I mean, Art mentioned the playbook. Actually, all the lawyers today are doing it very differently. They`re all Lone Rangers. They think they can do it by themselves, but Johnnie was great because he knew what he didn`t know. He knew that he was not a law lawyer. He was a fact lawyer. He was perfectly...

GRACE: That`s a good way to put it, Alan. That`s a good way to put it, Alan.

DERSHOWITZ: Yes, he was perfectly willing to use other lawyers and to take a backseat when it came to DNA, to Barry Scheck, when it came to legal arguments, to me and Gerry Uelmen. He knew what he knew, and he knew what he didn`t know.

And a lot of the lawyers today don`t want to share the limelight. And they are losing important issues, even today in the Jackson case. Those issues should have been argued by a Gerry Uelmen, not by the fact lawyer or the man who`s going to present the case to the jury.

GRACE: Well, you know, Alan. That`s a rare, rare quality, because most lawyers think they know everything. They really do.

DERSHOWITZ: It is. Yes, and Johnnie knew he didn`t.

GRACE: When it comes to saving a client, or in my case, prosecuting, saving the state`s case, you`ve got to hand over to experts. But I`ve got to tell you. He did the same thing in the Sean "Puff Daddy" Combs case, remember? He got Ben Brafman. He got a crew on board. He created a dream team, got another acquittal.

Hey, take a listen to this, Alan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What about Mark Fuhrman?

COCHRAN: Well, Mark Fuhrman, I think the same thing. I mean, you have to be consistent in this situation. Mark Fuhrman...

GRACE: You think it`s OK for him to make a book?

COCHRAN: Mark Fuhrman has the right to publish that book. He`s done it. It became number one. I don`t agree with anything he had to say, but he`s a perjurer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you imagine, Alan, Johnnie and I arguing? You know, he helped me get my first TV job, Johnnie Cochran. He and I sat -- oh, bad hair for me. He, of course, always looked great.

Alan, Johnnie and I sat on a panel of so-called legal experts here in New York many, many years ago. 1996, Alan. And he was the big guy. Remember, he had just won the Simpson trial. I was nobody from nowhere slogging away trying shoplifting cases. And he was this big star.

And we sat on this panel together, Alan. We got into a huge fight, me, Johnnie Cochran and Roy Black, who was fresh off the William Kennedy Smith win, but it was in good nature. We had the best time arguing. Next thing I know, "Cochran and Grace" was launched on Court TV. If it hadn`t been for Johnnie, I may still be trying shopliftings right now.

DERSHOWITZ: He was the most generous person. He shared everything. I`ll give you an example. Everybody gave him credit for the limerick, "If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit." But Gerry Uelmen made that up, and he always gave credit to Gerry Uelmen. He said, "Hey, I know when to borrow things from smarter people."

He always gave credit where credit was due. He gave credit to Barry Scheck for the DNA. He gave credit to me for some of the legal arguments. He always shared credit. He was a generous person.

GRACE: Now I want to go to Jim Moret who is also with us tonight.

Jim, you and Art, as well, Art Harris, covered the O.J. Simpson trial from the get-go. You spent a lot of time with Cochran. Thoughts?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": I spent a lot of time with him, not only during the O.J. Simpson days, but even earlier in my days as a local Los Angeles reporter. Johnnie Cochran was, as Mr. Dershowitz said, he was very generous, generous of his time. And he was very gracious.

And as Alan mentioned earlier, he would give credit to others. But the key with Johnnie Cochran was in the delivery. You know, he delivered that line, "If it doesn`t fit, you must acquit."

GRACE: Tell it, Jim.

MORET: He had a level of elegance and class.

GRACE: Tell it. Tell it. It was all in the delivery.

MORET: All in the delivery. But there was substance there, too. He wasn`t just flash, although he dressed impeccably and he was as well known for his...

GRACE: Oh, god. What about those ties? What about those ties?

MORET: ... his ties and his rainbow-color suits. But you know what? He had the substance to back it up. And he surrounded himself with people, as Alan said, that were his equals or greater in other fields. And he shared the spotlight, but he really deserved the attention and the accolades. And I think he got the respect, frankly, from fellow attorneys throughout the country as well as in Los Angeles.

GRACE: I have to tell you this, Jim. It took me a while, because every time I looked at him, I blamed him for the double murder. That`s hard to do when it`s your co-anchor.

MORET: No, I know that. I would see the two of you spar quite a bit.

GRACE: He won my respect. Before then, defense attorneys, I wouldn`t give them the time of day. But from Cochran, I learned why juries were so fascinated.

Take a listen to this, Jim.

MORET: Sure.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COCHRAN: Some crimes aren`t solved. Evidence is a smoking gun, there`s some other theory. I mean, they`re saying to you, look, we have problems here.

GRACE: Maybe the DNA was not as strong as he wished, but when you get a one-in-a-hundred match-up as opposed to one-in-a-million and you combine that match...

COCHRAN: Who says you`re going to get that?

GRACE: Wait a minute -- and you combine that to all the other circumstantial evidence you have, you might have a pretty good case.

COCHRAN: That`s wishful thinking.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, another thing, to Art Harris, in our building over at Court TV, Art, he was just as much of a gentleman to the cleaning people as to the assistant producers, the floor people, his co-anchors, as he was to his boss.

And you know another thing, Art? As much as I gave him heck day in, day out -- we fought just most recently about the Michael Jackson case. We were arguing about that like two wet cats in a barrel on LARRY KING one night. When his wife would walk in the room, Dale, he would light up.

And you know, he was very forward-thinking about women in the workplace. You know, his wife is a business woman. And he supported her being a business woman. And of course, he was the big star, Art, in "Cochran and Grace." There was no doubt about that. But you know, he never once rubbed it in, never.

HARRIS: And he never looked down at all on you, Nancy. He treated you as such an equal.

GRACE: Yes, he did.

HARRIS: He was gracious in and out of the courtroom. And in the courtroom, he actually did what you do -- which I saw you do in Atlanta often in front of a jury -- you preached. He preached to the jury and much the way you see one of these great preachers on a Sunday morning.

And it was amazing. You would watch them nod. He was with them. They were with him. And he just had this sixth sense. They liked him. And as you know, you liked him. There was not anybody who didn`t like Johnnie Cochran.

And to echo Alan Dershowitz, who was so brilliant as part of this "dream team," everyone looked up to Johnnie. He was the quarterback. He called the plays. And to have that much brainpower and that, you know, that much ego in one room and still to have it work flawlessly was something to behold, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, I`ll tell you one guy he could really snow over, always the judge. Somehow, I don`t care what case it was, the judge always believed everything Cochran said. I don`t care what case, from O.J. Simpson to Geronimo Pratt, one of his prize cases. He got a murder case reversed. Incredible lawyer.

Tonight, I`m very sad to report the death of my colleague, Johnnie Cochran. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Today in the Michael Jackson child molestation trial, the jury heard how the little boy`s mother made a frantic phone call claiming she and her children were being held against their will at Neverland Ranch.

Tonight, in Atlanta, defense attorney, Renee Rockwell; in New York, defense attorney Mercedes Colwin; and psychologist Caryn Stark.

But first, let`s go straight back to Jim Moret in Santa Maria, California. Jim, bring me up-to-date, friend.

MORET: The main witness on the stand today was a man named Jamie Masada who owns a Los Angeles comedy club. And he was brought on basically to support the prosecution theory that the mother and son were not a mother-son grifter team who were out to get celebrities and bilk them of money.

This person said that he really liked this boy. The boy was in a comedy camp that Jamie Masada had set up. The boy and his brother and sister were all from a very poor family. They were in a comedy camp that Jamie Masada had established for underprivileged kids.

He got to know the family. He got to know the mother. He said she was a wonderful person, never asked him for money, as the defense had claimed, but the estranged husband, now the ex-husband, was the person who was asking for money all the time.

And that really flows perfectly into the prosecution theory that the mother and son are the victims in this case. They`re not the bad guys. And more importantly, this person said that he got a call, a frantic call one night, when the family was at Neverland. And the mother basically said, "You have got to get me and my family out of here. We`re being held against our will." And this goes right into the prosecution theory of false imprisonment.

GRACE: Well, you know, that also goes in hand-in-hand with what another comic said, the female comic, who took the stand earlier. Didn`t she say something similar to that, Jim Moret?

MORET: Yes, she did. She said that she also got a call, a very cryptic phone call, frantic, frightful.

GRACE: Right.

MORET: And she said it dovetails perfectly.

GRACE: Let me go to Renee Rockwell. She`s a veteran criminal defense attorney in multiple jurisdictions in the country.

Renee, you have got a count, a multiple-count indictment. It`s not just about child molestation. It`s not just about giving wine to a little boy. It`s also about keeping these people there on Neverland Ranch. So how are they going to show that, if the mom stayed there willingly and spent some of Jackson`s money?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Nancy, you talk about a multiple-count indictment. And it`s interesting because I`ve always had the feeling that maybe there`s one juror in this entire case that`s going to want to hold out for an acquittal.

And Nancy, you are well aware of situations where jurors dig in, maybe at the end of the day, the jury could potentially be locked because they won`t decide, they won`t make a decision. But when you have other allegations such as imprisonment -- these are facts that they have brought out, these phone calls.

This is not a staged incident. This is not a family that`s trying to extort money. This is something that a jury could sit there, maybe not make a decision, but say, you know what? Maybe they didn`t do this, but they did that. And at the end of the day, it`s just enough to get a conviction on something.

GRACE: You know, Renee Rockwell, that is very shrewd trial strategy, because, as we said, a multiple-count indictment on Michael Jackson. If they want to reject, say, for instance, the child molestation claims, how can they disbelieve two separate comics who say the mom called them way back when, going, "We want to get out of here, but we can`t get away from Neverland"?

You`re right. They can split the baby, Renee. Not guilty on some, guilty on others to make the prosecution happy. I see it happen, a split baby.

Renee Rockwell with us in Atlanta. We have got to go to a quick break.

Very quickly, to "Trial Tracking": The Boy Scouts of America`s former director of programming, Douglas Smith, Jr., with the Boy Scouts for 39 years, charged with downloading child porn. Ouch. Douglas, a former Eagle Scout, will face a federal judge Wednesday expected to plead guilty.

In another trial today, the case of five-year-old Samantha Runnion alleged kidnapper and killer underway in Santa Ana, California. The prosecutor says DNA from the little girl`s tear drops was found in Alejandro Avila`s car. The defense says it was planted.

But this isn`t his first go-round in a courtroom. 2001, Avila acquitted of two counts child molestation. The defense also claimed then that evidence had been planted, that time, pornography on Avila`s computer.

One night on "LARRY KING LIVE," his lawyer defended his client and claimed the victims were coached to lie.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN POZZA, ATTORNEY FOR ALEJANDRO AVILA: We were able to talk to the jurors after they had come back with the acquittal. They basically said there were a number of issues, but certainly the credibility of the children was put into question.

GRACE: You accused them of being coached, didn`t you? I can see it right here in black and white.

POZZA: Well, absolutely. That was absolutely one of our defenses. And I have an ethical obligation to zealously represent my clients. And that`s what I do. And I don`t have a problem looking at myself in the mirror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes, well, your client got out of jail because of your defense and allegedly killed this girl. The assistant prosecutor says jurors in the Runnion case will hear previous child molestation charges against Avila.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: My greatest inspiration comes from kids. Every song I quite, every dance I do, all the poetry I write is all inspired from that level of innocence, that consciousness of purity. And children have that. I see God in the face of children. And, man, I just love being around that all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s from the ABC version of the Martin Bashir documentary shown to the Jackson jury. When he says he sees God in the face of children, but when he looks in the mirror, he sees Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela. This weekend on the Reverend Jesse Jackson`s radio show, Jackson compared himself to the human rights leader and civil rights leaders.

Caryn Stark, I think I need a shrink. What does this mean, psychologically speaking, that Jackson is comparing himself not only to Mandela, but from my hometown, Martin Luther King, the Martin Luther King?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, what it means, Nancy -- and it`s a good question -- is that he sees himself as being a hero. This is a very narcissistic man who makes his own rules, who believes the world rotates around him, and so now he`s comparing himself to these people. I`m wondering why he`s not comparing himself to Gandhi. What exactly is heroic about Michael Jackson where he would feel that he can compare himself to them?

GRACE: And to Renee Rockwell, how many times in Atlanta do you drive by the Martin Luther King Memorial, the slain civil rights leader? Now, Renee, there`s a gag order in place. What do you do with a client charged with child molestation who goes on a national radio show and compares himself to MLK and Mandela?

ROCKWELL: I would imagine, Nancy, that you would have to contain him at any cost. Certainly, I`m sure he`s sorry that he made other television appearances.

GRACE: Oh, yes.

Let me quickly go to Art Harris. Art, of course, the jury will never know that Jackson`s on the airwaves comparing himself to MLK and Mandela. Let`s get back to the facts. Were you surprised, Art, when you found out there were seven other alleged molestation victims, five other cases coming in front of this jury?

HARRIS: Well, I was -- I knew about the number of them. But I did not know how many would be allowed. The judge, of course, is going to allow five cases, which is huge. There are going to be a lot of thumbs required to put in the dike in this case now.

But talking about the conspiracy raised by Michael Jackson, Nancy, I couldn`t help but think about Johnnie Cochran and the whole conspiracy era he ushered in as a criminal defense lawyer with O.J. Simpson. It just hearkens back. It goes back to, you know, the seeds of strategy that go back a long way. And now suddenly, we are seeing Michael Jackson adopt conspiracy as a reason.

GRACE: I`m glad you brought that up. I`m glad you brought that up.

Back to Renee, quickly, Renee, when Cochran was on this case and that `93 charge came up, the $20 million-plus settlement, somehow -- I don`t know how Cochran did it -- he avoided an indictment. Not so in this case.

ROCKWELL: He avoided the indictment but you see that this nasty, ugly, little case may be rearing its head again if similar transactions come in, things from the past come in that may not have been discovered at any other point in criminal prosecutions.

And, Nancy, you well know, when similar transactions come in, you don`t have one trial, you have two trials, or three, or four, or five, depending.

GRACE: Or in this case, six.

ROCKWELL: Or seven. Another thing that`s interesting is that, not only do you have the children testifying, but you have -- and I know you`ll disagree with me, Nancy -- I call it third parties, people that testify that are not victims.

GRACE: Well, you know what? We`ll fight about that when we come back. You call it third party, I call it eyewitness. You say potato, I say potato.

Here at NANCY GRACE, everybody, we want you to take a look at Freddie Rodriguez, shot June 2003, 1-888-813-8389.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Thomas Roberts. And here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Well-known defense attorney Johnnie Cochran has passed away at the age of 67 at his home in L.A., apparently from an inoperable brain tumor. Cochran was an early advocate for victims of police abuse. But he gained worldwide fame 10 years ago for his successful and controversial defense of O.J. Simpson who was accused of murdering his ex-wife and her friend.

In Indonesia, family members are using bare hands and crowbars to search for loved ones in the rubble after yesterday`s massive earthquake in the Indian Ocean. The death toll stands at about 330 now, but government officials in the region say it could climb to as high as 2,000.

First Lady Laura Bush is on her way now to Afghanistan. She is due in Kabul tomorrow and plans to meet with President Hamid Karzai and receive a briefing on educational opportunities for Afghan women. She also plans to have dinner with U.S. forces at Bagram Air Base.

That is the news for now. I`m Thomas Roberts. We take you back for more of NANCY GRACE.

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OPRAH WINFREY, TALK SHOW HOST: Looking back on that experience, what do you say to yourself now? Because we all have done things in our lives and we say, "I don`t know what I was thinking, or I didn`t know what I was thinking, or that was a great lesson for me." I don`t know. What do you say to yourself when you look at that period in your life?

LISA MARIE PRESLEY, EX-WIFE OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Holy mother of God.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Lisa Marie Presley describing her time married to Michael Jackson.

Welcome back, everybody.

Very quickly to Mercedes Colwin, defense attorney, a veteran trial lawyer, Mercedes, because these similar transactions have now been allowed in, the jury`s going to hear about five other alleged child molestation victims. Does Jackson now have to take the stand or is it even more difficult for him to take the stand?

MERCEDES COLWIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s going to be more difficult for him to take the stand, because I think that the trouble is going to be he is going to be facing some of these other allegations that have never been tried in court. A best approach for a defense attorney to do is to take each one of these accusers -- and I know that some of the accusers are not going to come forward. And in fact, you`re going to have extraneous testimony from third parties...

GRACE: You mean eyewitnesses?

COLWIN: ... eyewitnesses. We`ll battle that one out, too.

But essentially, go through each of them and just start to discredit them, and erode their credibility by going through -- "Well, it`s been a long time. You didn`t really see actually. How far away were you from this alleged incident? You couldn`t really recall as you sit here today," and try to erode their credibility that way.

I know that some of these individuals that are going to come forward had some financial interest. And I have to say, what juries hate, these conspiracy theories. If they`re going to sit there and listen to this grandiose conspiracy theory against Michael Jackson, they are not going to be in favor of it.

I think that they are extraordinary uncomfortable. They want to deal with the facts. I think the only way to do it is just to continue to erode their credibility, and just deal with it in terms of timing, and go through these one at a time in that way, and not really develop this conspiracy theory, which I don`t think -- I think it`s problematic.

GRACE: But you know, Renee Rockwell, you called them third-party witnesses. I call them eyewitnesses because, Renee, when you have got an adult say they`ve seen not one, two, three, but four little boys on different occasions in bed with Jackson and then see both their underwear beside the bed, do I need to hear from the four boys? Do I need to know more, Renee? Am I missing something?

ROCKWELL: Like Mercedes said, the credibility is going to be at issue. And the defense team is going to keep screaming that there`s financial interest involved, that there were with the other parties, that perhaps the third party -- I think the third party`s the mother, Nancy...

GRACE: Yes.

ROCKWELL: ... that would be testifying to it. Now, the theory is that there was financial interest involved.

So it`s not like the victim getting on the stand and scrambling around and trying to remember exactly what happened under the sheets, if that`s what the facts are. It`s a mother trying to just tell it like she saw it. And of course, there`s time and there`s prejudice that`s going to be involved there.

GRACE: Well, let me go to Art Harris. Art, what`s the breakdown on these five incidents? We have got one boy who`s coming back to testify. You`ve got, I think, two mothers...

HARRIS: Yes.

GRACE: ... and two eyewitnesses?

HARRIS: The one that`s going to be the most powerful, I`m told, is the son of a former maid who was touched not in as intimate a way as the `93 victim or the current accuser, but who is nonetheless supposed to be a very powerful witness.

And the mother apparently caught him in a sleeping bag with Jackson and found three $100 bills in his pocket, courtesy allegedly of Michael Jackson, and was very uncomfortable but didn`t raise some of these things because it was not her place. She was his maid.

So this could be a very, very powerful witness. But as they all fall together, you should see or expect to see a pattern of grooming the kids and, of course, how they treat the parents and the mother.

GRACE: And very quickly to Jim Moret, before we switch gears to the double murder in the dentist in the Georgia case, Jim Moret, break it down for me very quickly. I have got the boy in the case in chief, all right, 13-years-old at the time. I have got another little boy who`s going to be a similar transaction, two mothers?

MORET: All of the boys -- all of the boys are between the ages of ten and thirteen at the time. Let me just pick up from what Art said, as well, because the boy who`s now a man in his 20s who`s going to testify. The thing that makes him really tough to break is the fact that he`s now a youth pastor. He is married. When you talk about credibility, that`s the person you want on the stand for the prosecution.

GRACE: Good point, Jim Moret, there in the courthouse every day with "Inside Edition." Also with us there, Art Harris, with the Insider.

Switching gears to another trial, in a very hotly contested murder case near Atlanta, Georgia, the trial judge lifts a gag order. Barton Corbin -- he`s a Georgia dentist -- faces not one, but two murder charges, one in the December shooting of his wife, Jennifer, and two, the 1990 shooting death of Corbin`s then-girlfriend Dolly Hearn.

Tonight, from Atlanta, Jennifer Corbin`s father, Max Barber, her sister, Rajel Caldwell.

Welcome to both of you.

Let me quickly go to Mr. Barber. Sir, when did you first realize things were amiss? I don`t believe you ever believed your daughter committed suicide.

MAX BARBER, FATHER OF JENNIFER CORBIN: No, I never have. I knew things were not going well with that marriage, probably 30 to 40 days prior to her death. We heard unusual things, squabbling about a credit card. Jenny was feeling alienated from him somewhat because she was very active on the Internet and he would -- he took displeasure to that.

Thanksgiving, a week prior to her death, they had a major altercation. And that altercation happened in their car on their way home. And of course, she called me immediately. And I asked her to please pack up the boys` clothes and immediately come to our house. Instead, she decided to go to my daughter, Heather`s, home.

GRACE: Rajel Caldwell is also with us, Jennifer Corbin`s sister.

Rajel, welcome, and I sure am sorry...

RAJEL CALDWELL, SISTER OF JENNIFER CORBIN: Thank you.

GRACE: ... for the loss of your sister.

CALDWELL: Thank you.

GRACE: Did you guys know that he had a girlfriend lurking in the past that had also committed suicide?

CALDWELL: No. When we learned of that woman, it was a shock to the entire family.

GRACE: Who was taking care of the little boys? Did one of them find their mom dead?

CALDWELL: Yes, yes.

GRACE: Oh, no.

CALDWELL: And the boys are with Heather and Doug, and they are doing as good as it can be right now.

GRACE: To Max Barber -- this is Jennifer`s father -- what happened that Thanksgiving before Jennifer died?

BARBER: The Thanksgiving prior to her death, the entire family met at Heather`s home, and we had a wonderful day. It was a very long day. But Bart didn`t join into the festivities. He stayed by himself mostly, did not interject much with the family, spent a lot of time downstairs by himself in the basement of the home.

And he promptly, before 6 o`clock, decided he was going home and told Jennifer that he wanted to go. Jennifer was very polite. She excused herself, got the boys, and they left and went home.

GRACE: And I bet the minute the door shut behind them, everybody said, "OK, something`s wrong there."

BARBER: Absolutely, we knew something was wrong, something was amiss, but we didn`t know what it was.

GRACE: Yes, yes.

BARBER: We didn`t know what was bothering him.

GRACE: Got to go to break. Is he facing two murder charges or just the murder of your daughter?

BARBER: He is facing two murder charges.

GRACE: OK, OK, I didn`t know if they were going to use Dolly Hearn`s as a similar transaction or try him for both. We are talking about a Georgia dentist, a very well-to-do Georgia dentist. His wife, he said, committed suicide. Her family never believed.

And then it was discovered 14 years before his girlfriend committed suicide. He`s facing double-murder charges. Stay with us.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARBER: Well, occasionally, they`ll bring up their mom. Yes, they bring up Jen`s name.

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GRACE: That is Max Barber, Jennifer Corbin`s father. He is with us tonight. Corbin`s husband on trial for murder. That trial is scheduled. But not just one murder, two. His girlfriend, Dolly Hearn, turned up dead 14 years ago. They had dated throughout dental school.

You know what`s interesting in this case, Renee, on the outside, this guy looks like a real catch. He is good looking. He is well-to-do, got the home, the cars, the dental degree. That`s a whole lot of cha-ching, money. But he`s got this dead girlfriend lurking in the past and now this. How much will looks, and money, and charm mean to a jury?

ROCKWELL: Nancy, I`m being real careful because of the gag order and the partially lifted...

GRACE: Gag order lifted. I`m sorry. Are you a witness in that case?

ROCKWELL: Anyway, I was just discussing with Rajel that, had there only been one case, the present case with Jennifer, had there been only one case, the case 14 years ago, you`d have nothing. Obviously, you had no prosecution of the case 14 years ago until the exact same set of facts allegedly are going to be put forward; two revolvers, two suicides, two relationships on the rocks. Not a good thing for a defense team. As a matter of fact, it would be staggering. And my understanding is that both cases are going forward.

GRACE: I mean, Rajel Caldwell -- this is Jennifer Corbin`s sister -- her eight-year-old son found his mother. Now, when a jury hears that, they`re going to be incensed. Rajel, is this a death-penalty case?

CALDWELL: You know, Nancy, I have no idea. We are doing exactly what the attorneys tell us to do.

GRACE: Yes.

CALDWELL: We do exactly what the D.A. tells us to do. And we`re going to follow the guidance of the Gwinnett County offices that are directly taking care of this case.

GRACE: Rajel, I asked your father about last Thanksgiving. And he described the incident there at the home when they left. What, if anything, happened after your sister left with her husband?

CALDWELL: The kids and I had spent some time together. And after Jennifer left, I just pursued some other, you know, family things in the house. And it wasn`t until after the phone call that we knew that Jennifer was coming back to the home.

GRACE: What phone call?

CALDWELL: The phone call that she was on her way back to the house, that she was coming back to spend the night.

GRACE: Why? Why was she coming back to the house?

CALDWELL: She did not tell me at the time. We had a heart-to-heart talk when she came back to Heather`s home. We sat on the couch, and we discussed what happened.

GRACE: What happened?

CALDWELL: And she told me that Bart punched her, and that he was extremely abusive verbally to her, and that it happened in front of the children, and that she said that she just could not deal with him anymore.

GRACE: Now, this was Thanksgiving. How much later?

CALDWELL: This was in the evening. This was after.

GRACE: Until Jennifer`s death?

CALDWELL: It wasn`t much longer. It was December 4th.

GRACE: That`s right. That was only a couple -- OK, a couple of weeks later.

To Caryn Stark, psychologist, neither Jennifer Corbin nor the girlfriend, Dolly Hearn, no one believed they committed suicide.

STARK: They have no history of a suicidal kind of profile, Nancy. If you take a look at them, these are two women who don`t have a history of depression. One was excited about her career. The other one is a mother who loves her children. The only thing they have in common is that they`re both going through a breakup with this man and then somehow they wind up killing themselves. It doesn`t make sense.

GRACE: Mercedes, isn`t it just too much of a coincidence for any defense attorney to tackle, that both of these women in his life commit suicide just around the time of the break-up with him? He`s the common denominator.

COLWIN: There`s a challenge there. But the way they`re going to attack it is look at the forensics. And there are no forensics in this case. In fact, even the pathologist that looked at Dolly Hearn`s body back 14 years ago could not rule out a suicide.

The same is not of Jennifer. The pathologist hasn`t come forward with that just yet, but there is no gun residue. There is absolutely no evidence that he had anything to do with these murders.

But you are right. It is extremely coincidental. And I think the jurors are going to be swayed by that potentially. But they also have to sit back and say to themselves, "Well, what`s the link other than these two women?" And when you have pathologists that haven`t ruled one out as a potential suicide.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Right.

Back to Max Barber -- this is Jennifer`s father with us tonight -- was she afraid of her husband, Bart Corbin?

BARBER: Oh, we`ve thought about that. I`ve asked Jenny on more than one occasion if she had any fears. And you know, she didn`t. She told me repeatedly that she could handle Bart. I felt that she thought she was comfortable and safe because of the two boys.

GRACE: What`s amazing to me -- back to Rajel Caldwell -- this is Jennifer`s sister -- if the punching incident is true, if the verbal abuse is true, then it would have meant nothing to this man for his son to find his mom dead.

CALDWELL: The verbal abuse is something that, with Bart, it was something that was very common. When it came down to Jennifer telling us that Bart had actually harmed her physically, that was when everything changed. It was something new that she had expressed to us.

GRACE: What`s really grabbing me here is that, if he would punch her in front of the boys and verbally abuse her in front of the boys -- you know, very often the defense would be, Renee, well, a father would never let his own children find the mom dead. But if he would punch her and verbally abuse her in front of the boys, it`s not that much of a stretch, Renee.

ROCKWELL: And certainly that will be used. And these are not -- these are eyewitnesses. I don`t know if the state would go so far as to use the children, but they -- I mean, they could testify as to exactly what they saw when this happened.

GRACE: You know, and the timeline is so significant, as Rajel just pointed out.

Rajel, you said the beating, the punching took place Thanksgiving Day. And that makes it less than about ten days later...

CALDWELL: Yes.

GRACE: ... when your sister was shot. Did you know immediately, Rajel, that this was no suicide?

CALDWELL: Absolutely. When I got the hysterical phone call that Jennifer`s life was gone, it never once occurred to me that I didn`t know what had happened. I knew what happened. I knew what happened.

GRACE: Well, we are waiting to determine whether the district attorney will announce that they are pursuing the death penalty in what is now two counts of murder against a very well-to-do dentist in the Atlanta metro area.

Very quickly, to "Trial Tracking": Day 12, no food, no water for Terri Schiavo. Her parents have exhausted nearly all legal options. Terri`s feeding tube removed March 18. Still, her mother is not giving up, urging Florida lawmakers to pass legislation to keep her alive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY SCHINDLER, MOTHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: I`d like to appeal to the Florida senators to please, please pass this new bill. Terri is still fighting. She is trying with her all her might. She does not want to die.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Local news is next for some of you. We`ll be right back.

And remember, live coverage of the Jackson trial tomorrow 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments." Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Freddie Rodriquez, shot to death June 2003 driving home in Sacramento, California, just 16-years-old. If you have any information on Freddie Rodriguez, please call the Carole Sund/Carrington foundation, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

Welcome back. We are bringing you information about a double-murder case out of Georgia. A beautiful, young woman found shot to death. Her husband said suicide. But then authorities realized his girlfriend from dental school also committed suicide coincidentally around the time of a break-up, just like his wife.

Very quickly, I want to go back to Jennifer Corbin`s father, the victim in this case.

Mr. Barber, what are your final thoughts tonight as you await the announcement from the district attorney?

BARBER: Well, my final thoughts are I`m glad that the gag order is -- that pressure`s off my shoulders. I prefer to be able to express myself without concern. I know that we`re going to see it as a family that everything is done for our daughter. She`s no longer with us, but her being is with our minds and with our children. We`re looking to step forward and do everything we can to protect the two boys.

GRACE: And very quickly to Rajel Caldwell, Jennifer`s sister. Rajel, did you have any sense of foreboding after that beating incident on Thanksgiving?

CALDWELL: I would have to say I was concerned. I had expressed concern to Jennifer and had talked to her about maybe even moving in with me. And we had entertained that thought. I had plenty of space in my home, and it was close to the boys` school. And she was very concerned about the kids leaving the school.

GRACE: Rajel, how I wish to God she had.

CALDWELL: Yes.

GRACE: To all of you, thank you. I want to thank all of my guests, Max Barber, Rajel Caldwell, Renee Rockwell, Mercedes Colwin, Caryn Stark, earlier, Jim Moret, Alan Dershowitz, Art Harris.

But my biggest thank you as always is to you for being with us tonight, inviting us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from around the world.

I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I`ll see you here tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern.

Until then, good night, Johnnie Cochran, and good night, friends.

END