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Nancy Grace for March 30, 2005, CNNHN

Aired March 30, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Tonight, sending your kid out to Boy Scout troop? Think twice. Damage control tonight for the Boy Scouts of America. A national Boy Scout leader in court today. Charges, child pornography. His name, Douglas Smith. He is a leader in the Boy Scouts of America for 39 -- repeat, 39 -- years.
And in another high-profile sex case, Michael Jackson`s lawyers brace themselves to attack one, two, three, four, no, five other claims of child molestation by Jackson.

And as Terri Schiavo`s life ebbs away, emotions are boiling over. There are protests, death threats, police arrests. Schiavo`s parents pleading Terri`s husband to feed their daughter, while he, Schiavo`s husband, is busily planning her autopsy and cremation.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Michael Schiavo plans an autopsy for his wife as we`re speaking, Terri Schiavo. He says an autopsy will prove Terri Schiavo was in a vegetative state. Well, her parents are begging him to save her life, instead of planning an autopsy, by replacing her feeding tube. It is day 13, no food, no water.

And across the country in Santa Maria, California, Michael Jackson facing five more claims of child molestation.

But first, before you send your boys off to Scout meetings, Douglas Smith, a national leader for Boy Scouts of America, in court today facing charges of child porn, receiving and distributing child pornography. Tonight, from Washington, the president of the National Center for Missing Children, Ernie Allen in San Francisco, recovering sex offender, Jake, Goldenflame, in Tampa, defense attorney Joe Episcopo and with us in New York, psychologist Patricia Saunders.

But first, to Dallas and CNN`s Ed Lavandera.

Ed, bring us up-to-date, friend.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, it`s been a long day and a draining day for everyone involved here. You know, yesterday, the Boy Scouts came out and said that they were shocked and dismayed by what had happened.

Today, the attorney for Douglas Smith saying that the reason he pled guilty was that he wanted to get all of this behind him, that he was almost to the point of being ashamed of bringing this kind of negative publicity on the Boy Scouts. But he pled guilty to that one count.

And in that court documents that were released after he had pled guilty, it kind of outlines the case that federal prosecutors had against him, which included finding more than 500 sexually explicit photographs of children under the age of 18, some even under the age of 12, on his computer, more than 500 pictures found.

GRACE: OK, you kind of knocked me out with the 500 number, 500 explicit pictures. You said some of the kids were as young as what?

LAVANDERA: Most of them under the age of 18, some even under the age of 12. And we are told that these were sexually explicit, the minors engaging in sex acts.

But you know, the fascinating thing about prosecutors said about these pictures is that they were well-known pictures. It almost led you to believe as if there`s like the greatest hits of pictures that you find on the Internet like this. And they said that these weren`t totally uncommon pictures, that investigators who handle these cases come across these pictures in other cases. That was one of the things that struck me today.

GRACE: Ed, question: Explain to me what his position was with the Boy Scouts of America.

LAVANDERA: Well, for the last, we believe -- there have been some reports as late as 1996, that he had been the national director of programs for the Boy Scouts of America, which is based out of the Dallas-Fort Worth area, and that`s why he`s living here.

And the Boy Scouts have been saying that, in this position, he did not have routine connections with the young people in the organization, that it was an administrative position. His attorney described him as a paper pusher, essentially.

We do know that over the years he was involved as a scout leader. We spoke with one family member of a scout in Oregon this evening who said they have been -- they are completely stunned by all of this. They had no indication that Mr. Smith is a hard-core scout leader. He was one of these guys who stuck to the rules. And, in fact, in many places, he was out promoting...

GRACE: I`m sorry, when you said "hardcore," I thought you were going to say something else.

LAVANDERA: I apologize.


GRACE: Now, wait a minute. Let me re-ask this question. His position with Boy Scouts of America, I thought he actually was in charge of programs to stop child molestation at one point.

LAVANDERA: Well, that`s was what I was getting to. There was also some other points, some other organizations, and some other projects that he was involved in that were aimed at helping other scout masters and other scout leaders help defend, and the warning signs, teach people about the warning signs to protect the young scouts from sexual deviance.

GRACE: You know, that`s incredible to me, Ernie Allen, that he was in charge of teaching other people how to stop abuse of children. Ernie Allen is the president and CEO for NCMEC, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Welcome, Ernie.


GRACE: Victims` rights advocate. How did police find Douglas Smith?

ALLEN: Well, this came up as a part of an international child pornography investigation. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement here in the United States working with the German BKA, German law enforcement, trying to identify the people who are trading in and collecting child pornography happened upon Mr. Smith. So certainly, he was not a target or Boy Scouts was not a target, but there are thousands of people who are accessing these images around the world. It`s a growing problem.

GRACE: Good lord, 500 images of children, child pornography. And this guy had been with the Boy Scouts of America for 39 years.

Jake Goldenflame is with us. Jake is the author of "Overcoming Sexual Terrorism." He`s a convicted child molester. Jake, take a listen to this.


BRET HELMER, ASST. U.S. DISTRICT ATTY.: The execution of the search warrant revealed two computers in his home and several computer disks. On those computer and computer disks were approximately 520 images of child pornography, all of males under the age of 18, many of them prepubescent under the age of 20, engaged in explicit sexual conduct.


GRACE: Jake Goldenflame is with us. He is a convicted child molester.

Jake Goldenflame, what was the nature of your charge?

JAKE GOLDENFLAME, CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER: I was convicted of two counts of child molestation.

GRACE: And the victim?

GOLDENFLAME: The victim was a little girl, just under five years of age.

GRACE: Now, according to you, Jake Goldenflame, a child molester, a pedophile, can stop attacking children.

GOLDENFLAME: Yes, absolutely. I`ve been out of prison for 14 years. I remain re-offense free.

GRACE: Do you still have the same impulse? Is it like an alcoholic?

GOLDENFLAME: The impulse will always be there, but what happens now that didn`t happen then is, when the impulse comes up, so does a mental firewall. This is what the behavioral reconditioning therapy establishes in you. And the impulse does not become a plan. You just walk away from it, and it vanishes.

GRACE: How old was your victim?

GOLDENFLAME: She was three to five years of age when the molestation went on. And before her, over the years before that, there were a number of adolescent boys in the mid-teens that I also went after and had sex with.

GRACE: Was she your daughter?

GOLDENFLAME: Yes, she was.

GRACE: Was it full-blown sex?

GOLDENFLAME: No, it was fondling.

GRACE: My question to you, Jake Goldenflame, is you say you still have those impulses but you put up a firewall. If it`s like an alcoholic, you don`t offer an alcoholic a martini. How do you stay away from children? They`re everywhere.

GOLDENFLAME: Well, they`re everywhere. But that doesn`t mean you have to be with them. I mean, if you go out, as I do, on the streets and, let`s say, go to the market, and there are some kids standing around, you walk past them. You don`t get involved with them.

I was taking a bus trip a couple of hours north of here. And I got onboard the bus. It was very crowded. The only seat was one seat way in the back. And when I went and sat down there, I found myself sitting next to exactly the kind of teenage boy that I find erotically attractive.

And I looked at the situation. And I said to myself, "This is putting me in danger and putting this kid in danger." I got off the bus and took another bus. That`s how you do it.

GRACE: Can you have sex with an adult?

GOLDENFLAME: I`m sure that I can. I have chosen not to be involved sexually with anyone since I came back from prison.

GRACE: I need a shrink.

Dr. Patricia Saunders, help me out here. Can child molesters, can pedophiles be cured of -- long-learned anecdotally from prosecuting them, I`m sorry, Jake Goldenflame, I don`t buy it. I mean, you get on a bus, you can`t even sit next to a teenage boy.

Dr. Saunders, can they be cured?

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Mr. Goldenflame is a teeny-weeny minority. The incidence of recidivism for pedophiles is upwards of 80 percent.


SAUNDERS: They cannot be cured. They don`t want to be.

GRACE: That number speaks for itself.

Very quickly, Joe Episcopo, how much time is Douglas Smith facing?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Five to twenty years, but I do think that he is a candidate for this behavioral reconditioning that Jake`s talked about. He`s not acted out on these fantasies. In fact...

GRACE: ... that we know of.

EPISCOPO: In fact, he apparently is using these images to satisfy this perverted desire, but not acting out on it. So he has some hope.

GRACE: Joe, where there`s smoke, OK? I don`t know that I`d let him out for rehabilitation just yet.

Quick break. We`ll be right back. A leader in the Boy Scouts national offices 39 years, 500 images of child pornography. Stay with us.


JACK STRICKLAND, DOUGLAS SMITH`S ATTORNEY: I think by virtue of the fact that he`s accepted responsibility, he`s contrite, he`s sorry. I`m not sure that he fully understands what`s led him to this point in his life either. And beyond that, I suspect the best thing for him to do is make his statements in court at the appropriate time.



HELMER: The forensic analysis revealed that he received, obviously, child pornography. He possessed it on an AOL e-mail account and on his computer hardware. And then he also would send it to friends throughout the country and, indeed, internationally.


GRACE: Man, that`s some kind of friend that sends you images of child pornography.

Welcome back, everybody. A leader in the Boy Scouts of America, at the national level, 39 years with the Boy Scouts, pled guilty today on charges of child pornography, receiving and distributing on his computer.

Let me go to Ed Lavandera with CNN.

Ed, over 500 images. Were the images of boys engaged in sex acts on the home or work computer?

LAVANDERA: It was all on the home computer. And both prosecutors and the defense attorneys say that -- I hate to use the word disciplined -- but if there is -- he was very disciplined, prosecutors said, in the sense that this was just at home.

From every indication they have, this did not seep into his work life. They didn`t find any of this stuff on his work computer. And to follow up on the point that Joe was making earlier, too, about the judge in this case and the prosecutors -- I mean, his sentencing is in July. He is free until then.

They have every indication -- they have no reason to believe that he`s acted out on any of this.

I think it`s an interesting point -- perhaps we can bring it up with the other guests -- is that the judge said that he does not consider him a danger to anyone else. The prosecutors said the same thing. I think people have a hard time reconciling -- they find these pictures and the judges and prosecutors are saying this about him.

GRACE: So, in other words, he`s on bond? He`s out.

LAVANDERA: Yes, exactly.

GRACE: OK, so he`s going to face sentencing in July.

Back to Jake Goldenflame.

And by the way, we asked the Boy Scouts of America if they would respond to this story tonight. And for whatever reason, they could not face the camera and answer questions.

Listen, my brother was a Boy Scout. My nephews are Boy Scouts. One`s about to be an Eagle Scout. Fat chance on sending a kid to Boy Scouts, den or pack or club, with this lurking in the shadows.

In fact, here`s a pledge. On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and country and to obey the scout law, to help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight -- emphasis, sir, morally straight, Mr. Smith.

Joe Episcopo, take a listen. Joe Episcopo`s a veteran defense lawyer. Take a listen to what this guy`s defense lawyer said.


STRICKLAND: I also hope that people realize that this is a man who, for his entire life, has been a good man, has been a good family man, has been a good representative of the Boy Scouts. And I would hate, even though to save the nation, I`m sure, I would hate for his entire life to be judged by one stupid act.


GRACE: I`m sorry, maybe I`m going deaf in my old age. But, Joe, did he say "one stupid act"? One times 500.

EPISCOPO: No. You know, you are condemning the whole Boy Scouts, too. Back off a little bit, OK? Listen. He is not even on bond. He`s on recognizance. He didn`t post any money. He`s not a danger to society.

GRACE: Dr. Patricia Saunders, question to you. You said that 80 percent of pedophiles repeat offend. Explain to me how prized -- to our viewers -- how prized child pornography -- just imagine it, children, children in sex acts with each other, and somebody taking a picture.

OK, maybe that doesn`t bother Joe Episcopo. It bothers me. Explain to the viewers how prized this porn collection is to pedophiles.

SAUNDERS: It`s the cornerstone of their being. It`s what they use to fuel their fantasies. It`s what they use to seduce children. It`s what they use to, in their diluted way, teach children about sex, OK? There are some pedophiles, not child porn collectors, but pedophiles who have requested that their collections be returned when they`re in jail.

GRACE: Oh, good lord.

SAUNDERS: That`s how valuable it is to them. We don`t know clearly what the connection is, connection between pornography, child pornography and pedophiles.

GRACE: Well, we`re seeing it in the Jackson case, as well.

Back to Jake Goldenflame. He`s a convicted child molester and is a recovering child offender, according to him. Dr. Saunders tells me that a molester molests -- a typical pedophile molests about 380 children in a lifetime, 380.

Now, Mr. Goldenflame, question to you. With a straight face, can you tell me a guy with a child porn collection like this has never acted on it or is not in any danger of acting on it? I don`t see it.

GOLDENFLAME: OK. There`s two kinds of people who use child pornography. One is the kind the Dr. Saunders was speaking of, the pedophile who uses it to gratify himself and also uses it to seduce children with it or introduce them to it. There are, I know, other people who are guilty of possessing child pornography that do not become involved with kids, because the federal prisons have sent several of those guys to me. They`ve had the right man work with them...

GRACE: Straight answer, straight answer, please.

GOLDENFLAME: Yes. Well, the straight answer is, some people use child porno just for themselves and some people use it as pedophiles to inspire themselves to go out and carry out the pornography in real life.

GRACE: And, Joe Episcopo, how are you so sure this guy will not act on it? You have heard from Jake Goldenflame, a convicted child molester, for Pete`s sake. How do you know?

EPISCOPO: Well, I`m not sure. And you know what the worry is, is if they get intoxicated, and their barriers are down, that`s when you may have a problem. That`s what happened to this guy Couey down here in Homosassa.

GRACE: Yes, well, that and his record`s a mile long.

Very quickly to Ernie Allen. He`s the president of NCMEC, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

Ernie, where does this come from? We heard Ed Lavandera tell us that it came out in court that this was being purveyed to "friends" across the country and around the world. Where does child porn come from?

ALLEN: Well, Nancy, it comes from everywhere. We have handled about 300,000 reports through our cyber tip line at the national center. Of the cases we have worked, we found that about 80 percent of that child pornography was home-manufactured, photos taken most of them by parents of their own children. They abuse their children. They photograph the acts, and then they distribute the images. So in every one of these photos, in every one of these cases, there`s a child victim somewhere in America or around the world.

GRACE: And the Internet, for Pete`s sake. It`s not hard copy photographs. The Internet has made this so easy, Ernie.

ALLEN: Oh, Nancy, it`s extraordinary. It is exploded with the Internet. We worked one case, handled one lead that the Dallas police and federal law enforcement followed up on, one Web site, one child pornography Web site, had 70,000 customers paying $19.95 a month and using their credit cards to see images of very young children being sexually assaulted.

GRACE: Ernie Allen, I think you`re sugar-coating it a tiny bit. Very young children, how young?

ALLEN: Well, five-years-old and younger. So this...

GRACE: Sexually assaulted, did you mean fondled or raped?

ALLEN: I mean raped. I mean abused in a graphic way. There are million of Americans who think the child pornography problem is dressing up a 20-year-old model to look like they`re 15.

This problem is involving younger and younger victims. The images are getting more graphic and more violent. It is an exploding problem.

GRACE: Ernie, when you said five, I thought of my first child molestation victim that I represented for the state. She was five. She had been having full-blown sex with her mother`s live-in since she was three. She`ll never be the same.

We`ve got to go to break. But Ernie Allen, as the president of NCMEC, National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, do you buy that a guy with child porn, 500 images, won`t molest?

ALLEN: I`m deeply skeptical that people collect child pornography as a function of academic curiosity. I think there`s a direct linkage with child molestation.

GRACE: Everyone, we are going to break. Please stay with us.


GRACE: The Michael Jackson defense team batten the hatches. Their worst nightmare come true, more little boys claiming Jackson molested them, too. Tonight in New York, defense attorney Richard Herman; in Santa Maria, California, prosecutor, Anne Bremner.

But first to "Inside Edition`s" senior correspondent, Jim Moret. He has been in the courthouse all day long.

Speaking of molestation, what went down in the courtroom today, Jim?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, it was a give-and-take day. Some good news for the prosecution, some good news for the defense. Basically, a psychologist who interviewed the alleged victim and his brother and sister took the stand today. And it`s this psychologist that really launched the investigation against Michael Jackson when he filed a report with the Department of Children and Family Services based upon what the boy told him.

The doctor never said what the boy told him, but the prosecution has claimed, obviously, that the boy claims he was molested. And the doctor did say he has never seen a false claim filed by an adolescent, and never in his career seen a false claim motivated by financial gain, which is what the defense is claiming in this case.

And, Nancy, I was listening to your last conversation. And what`s notably absent in this case is any child pornography, which I think is a very interesting point.

GRACE: I think that`s very important too.

And another issue -- and I`m glad I have got a shrink here on the set with me, psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders -- the kicker in the Jackson case is the defense is arguing that Michael Jackson has a Peter Pan-like persona, that he`s basically asexual, has back to arrested development as a child. But in my mind, this adult porn blows that out of the water.

Why would a little boy have adult porn? Certainly not Peter Pan.

SAUNDERS: Absolutely. In fact -- not Peter Pan. The studies show that 77 percent of pedophiles will use adult porn to groom the prepubescent boys. So it`s a mix of erotica, like the boy book, and adult porn.

GRACE: A lot went down in the Jackson courtroom today. We`re going to go straight back out to Santa Maria, California, and Jim Moret in just one moment.

As we go to break, at NANCY GRACE, we want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at 13-year- old Justin Kestel from Lorena, Texas. He went missing when he was just one year old. Take a look at this age-progressed picture. If you have any information on Justin Kestel, please call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, 1-800-THE-LOST.


RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Renay San Miguel. This is your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Pope John Paul II now has a feeding tube inserted in his nose to increase his calorie intake. The Vatican acknowledges his recovery is slow following a tracheotomy last month. The pontiff appeared at his window this morning to bless the crowds below, but managed only a few raspy sounds.

The psychologist who reported molestation allegations against Michael Jackson took the stand in his trial today. Stan Katz testified he interviewed Jackson`s accuser and the accuser`s brother and sister. Katz also testified it would be extremely rare for a child over the age of five to fabricate claims of molestation.

A new study finds the overall well-being of children in the U.S. has improved since 1993. The Foundation for Child Development says that teen pregnancy has been cut almost in half, binge drinking among high-schoolers is down, and there`s been a significant drop in teen crime. But it says childhood obesity has more than tripled in three decades.

That`s the news for now. I`m Renay San Miguel. Now back to NANCY GRACE.


MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: Peter Pan, to me, represents something that`s very special in my heart. You know, he represents youth, childhood, never growing up, magic, flying. And to me, I just have never, ever grown out of loving that or thinking that it`s very special.


GRACE: That is from the ABC version of the Martin Bashir documentary. It has been shown to the Jackson jury. It was created by a Michael Jackson staffer.

Welcome back. Straight back out to the courthouse, standing by, Seattle lawyer, Anne Bremner.

Question regarding Dr. Katz. And I thought this was going to be a bomb-shell and an intense cross-examination...


GRACE: ... by the defense. What happened?

BREMNER: Well, if you blinked, Nancy, his testimony was over. It was about a 15-minute direct examination from the prosecution. And what they established was, there was disclosure by the victim, and that was about it. And then there was cross-examination that was also limited. So it was astounding to all of us that it was so brief.

GRACE: You know, to Jim Moret, why was Katz, Dr. Katz, such a potentially explosive witness for the state and the defense in the Michael Jackson case?

MORET: Well, originally, we thought Dr. Katz was going to come on and give his opinion about whether he felt the boy was molested, about the boy`s credibility. The judge earlier this week said to the prosecutors, "You can bring on Dr. Katz, but he cannot give his opinion about the boy`s credibility. That`s a decision for the jurors to make."


MORET: And so it really took the wind out of the sails for the prosecution.

And there was another witness, frankly, Nancy, on earlier that puzzled all of us. And that was a flight attendant on this flight from Miami to Santa Barbara. She was the person that the prosecution promised would tell us that she served Michael Jackson wine in a Diet Coke can, and she saw Michael Jackson give some of that wine to the little boy, and he cuddled the little boy, touched him inappropriately. That just didn`t happen.

Yes, she served wine to Michael Jackson. Why? She said because he didn`t want to be seen drinking in front of his children. But she said he never, never gave any wine to that child. She never saw him touch the boy inappropriately. All of us in the courtroom were wondering why...

GRACE: Let me just clarify, Jim Moret, that she was serving about a seven-course meal to how many, 15 people on the flight? Yes, no?

MORET: No. It was precooked food. It was Kentucky Fried Chicken, and as she said, "all the fixin`s."

GRACE: Right. And she was serving appetizers, hot hors d`oeuvres, then cold hors d`oeuvres, then the meal, which is fried chicken with coleslaw, and then a palette cleanser, which was sorbet, and then dessert plus drinks. This stewardess, this flight attendant, was serving all of these people. She saw Jackson with alcohol in a Coke can, as described by the boy. She didn`t happen to see whether he gave the boy any or not. Is that correct?

MORET: Nancy, if I didn`t know better, I would think you`re a cynic.

GRACE: I would just like you to answer it. Is that correct, yes, no?

MORET: It`s correct, except she said that, from her vantage point -- you`re looking at a plane that`s this big, Nancy. You can touch one side to the other with your arms extended. It is not like a commercial airliner.

GRACE: I understand.

MORET: This is something she swore that, from her vantage point, she would always pay attention to Michael Jackson. Why? Because he is the lead passenger. He was the one paying for the flight. He was the primary person. It was believable testimony. That`s all I`m saying.

GRACE: I completely understand.

Very quickly to Anne Bremner. My original question was about Dr. Katz. Could you give me, Anne, in a nutshell the significance of Dr. Katz? Who is he? What was the point?

BREMNER: He`s the first person that the victim told. And that is very important because it`s been asserted by the defense that the family went to lawyers, the family wanted money, this is extortion, they`re grifters, they`re false claimants.

No. He went to and told a psychologist. And that is the most important thing he had to say today, and he got on the stand, and he said it.

GRACE: To Richard Herman, defense attorney, a lot is going to be made of the fact of allegations that this mom, the family, is allegedly out for money. But, Richard, take a listen to Jackson`s mother.


KATHERINE JACKSON, MOTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Well, whoever is a parent, if someone came and molested your son, would you ask them for money? Would you? You can`t answer me? No, you wouldn`t ask him for money, would you?


GRACE: You know, she makes an excellent point, Richard Herman, but on the other hand, there are five other alleged victims, stories that are going to be introduced in front of this jury. Only two have gotten money settlements. What about the other three, plus the boy in the case in chief?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, those will not be victims, Nancy. The victims are not coming in. They`re only going to be alleged witnesses.

GRACE: Their stories, yes, Richard. That`s not the question. My question is, let me rephrase...

HERMAN: Thank you.

GRACE: ... if this is all about money, and you have got five victims and the case in chief, only two of them got a money settlement. That`s two out of six.

HERMAN: You know, Nancy, he`s had thousands and thousands of children at Neverland. And you have a few of these people that tried to hold this guy up. You yourself said this guy is a major target. So he decided to pay two of them off in settlements rather than go litigate. Look what the mess he`s brought himself now.

GRACE: To you, Dr. Patricia Saunders, what does it suggest to you?

SAUNDERS: That not everybody in the universe is lying, that he has a pattern of behavior that is absolutely textbook for those of pedophilia.

GRACE: I`ve got a question for you regarding Macaulay Culkin, who I personally adore. I have watched every one of his movies. I even took my little nephew over to the plaza looking for Cedric, OK, from "Home Alone" in New York. Take a listen to this.


MACAULAY CULKIN, ACTOR: Nothing happened, you know? I mean, nothing really. I mean, we played video games, you know?

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Did you sleep on the bed?

CULKIN: We played at his amusement park, even though they go, "Oh, you slept in the same bedroom as him." It`s like I don`t think you understand. Michael Jackson`s bedroom is two stories. And it has like three bathrooms and this and that. So when I slept in his bedroom, yes, but you have to understand the whole scenario.

It`s because -- it`s the same reason why he liked me, was the fact that I didn`t care who he was. That was the thing. I talked to him like he was a normal human being. Kids do that to him, because he is not -- I mean, he is Michael Jackson the pop singer, but he`s not the god of -- you know, the King of Pop or anything like that. He is just a guy, you know, a guy who`s actually very kid-like himself and wants to go out there and he wants to play video games.


GRACE: OK. Dr. Patricia Saunders, allegedly one of these similar transactions is, in fact, Macaulay Culkin when he was a very young boy. Is that true? I don`t know yet. It hasn`t come in.

But if so, is it possible for everyone to be speaking the truth, for Macaulay Culkin, as an adult, not to recollect or understand something that happened when he was a young boy?

SAUNDERS: Absolutely, and especially when it comes to sexual abuse. Young children don`t encode memory the same way that grown-ups do. And they`re more prone to denying it and repressing it. Remember, Michael Jackson said that Macaulay had lips that were bee stung. This is an obvious sexual interest in him as a child.

GRACE: I didn`t know Michael Jackson said his lips looked bee stung.

Jim Moret, are one of these witnesses -- is one of these witnesses going to be pertaining to Macaulay Culkin?

MORET: Yes. We are expecting -- that`s what the prosecution has offered. And with respect to money, Nancy, remember that some of the people coming to testify are former employees -- the defense will claim disgruntled employees -- who filed lawsuits themselves against Michael Jackson. So money does come into this.

GRACE: Jim, Jim, I`m trying to find out about Macaulay Culkin. Is it an eyewitness to...

MORET: An eyewitness, yes. An eyewitness, absolutely. We`re told it`s an eyewitness who may have seen inappropriate touching in the arcade.

GRACE: Oh, but Macaulay Culkin has stated publicly that did not happen.

MORET: As have four of the other alleged victims.

GRACE: How can that be, Dr. Saunders?

SAUNDERS: Well, there are two factors. One is that the child doesn`t experience it as sexual, a five-year-old kid. It might make him a little uncomfortable. But they`re not going to know that it`s sexual. And the other is that children of abuse often experience something like a Stockholm syndrome. They`ll accommodate. They`ll agree.

GRACE: Quick break, everyone. We are going to "Trial Tracking": Five-year-old Samantha Runnion, remember her, kidnapped and murdered July 2002? Alejandro Avila on trial in California for the crimes. Avila went free to allegedly murder little Samantha after being found not guilty of molesting two other little girls, thanks to his defense attorney, who claimed the girls made it all up and that police had planted evidence, child porn.


GRACE: It`s my understanding the jury verdict is to speak the truth. And the fact that a defense attorney thinks it`s OK just to stick your head in the sand and not ask your client...

JOHN POZZA, ATTORNEY FOR ALEJANDRO AVILA: You know, I can`t -- you can`t...

GRACE: ... "Did you molest these girls?" and then go to trial.

POZZA: Nancy, it is so outrageous...

GRACE: I don`t think it`s OK.

POZZA: I can`t say I haven`t lost sleep, but certainly, from a professional standpoint, this has allowed me to realize that I have a job, I have to do that job, and that a lot of times personal feelings -- I have to remove my personal feelings from my job.

ERIN RUNNION, SAMANTHA RUNNION`S MOTHER: I blame every juror who let him go, every juror who sat on that trial and believed this man over those little girls. I will never understand.


GRACE: I called the defense attorney`s office and asked if he still handled defense for child molestation. His secretary said yes. DNA linked to Samantha was found in Avila`s car, according to prosecutors from Samantha`s teardrops. We`ll bring you the latest on this case tomorrow night as the trial goes forward.



BOB SCHINDLER, FATHER OF TERRI SCHIAVO: Terri is still with us. Under the circumstances, she looks darn good, surprisingly good. And she is weak from the lack of food and hydration.


GRACE: Tonight, another blow for Terri Schiavo`s parents. A federal court refuses to help Terri. It`s day 13, no food, no water. Wherever you are tonight, you probably had a nice supper. Not so for Terri Schiavo, not even a feeding tube.

Tonight, in Atlanta, CNN medical reporter Dr. Sanjay Gupta; in Pittsburgh, forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht; Ft. Lauderdale, Florida, director of pathological medicine, Dr. Eric Braverman; and in New York, professor of psychiatry, Dr. Joseph Deltito.

First, to Pinellas Park and Washington Post reporter Manuel Roig- Franzia.

Manuel, thank you for being with us. Bring us up-to-date, friend.

MANUEL ROIG-FRANZIA, WASHINGTON POST: Well, you can imagine it`s an incredibly intense scene here. A real sense of urgency, but a roller coaster of emotions for these demonstrators here, too.

First in the morning, they were extremely excited about the fact that the Schindlers, who had said they weren`t going to be filing anymore appeals in the federal court, had actually gone ahead and filed an appeal in the federal court. But then not very long after that, the ruling comes out, and it was emphatic against the Schindlers.

Now, they can only look ahead to another option, which is the Supreme Court, the United States Supreme Court, which looks quite likely.

GRACE: To Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN medical reporter, Sanjay, question. While the family of Terri Schiavo is begging for the feeding tube to be reinserted, Terri Schiavo`s husband is planning her autopsy and cremation. Why an autopsy?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL REPORTER: Well, I think that, at least from what I`ve heard him saying, is he thinks the autopsy`s going to answer some of the questions about whether or not she`s been in a persistent vegetative state or more of a minimally conscious state. The autopsy may not be able to answer those questions definitively, but that`s what we`re hearing from him.

GRACE: Dr. Cyril Wecht, famed forensic pathologist, can brain damage be repaired, Cyril?

DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: No, Nancy. The central nervous system, brain and spinal cord do not regenerate like tissues of the liver, and kidneys, and heart, to some extent, and obviously soft tissues like muscles. So this will be, I think, a very important step to take. And I believe it would have been absurd not to have a post-mortem examination done.

The proper fixation of the brain in formalin for about a couple of weeks permitting it to harden, going back then and taking microscopic sections from fixed locations, which we know will be from parts of the brain that control various functions, cognitive, sensory, motor, coordinative, et cetera, and then studies by the forensic pathologist and forensic neuropathologist. They will be able to determine, with reasonable medical probability -- it`s not math, or physics, or chemistry -- but reasonable probability whether or not, considering if...

GRACE: Right.

WECHT: ... and this is an assumption -- that there is death of those tissues or those cells, that there would not have been function at this time.

And the answer then, Nancy, to your question is, there would not have been ever regeneration so that nobody could ever speculate, "Gee, if they had only done such and thus, she would have come back, and see would have been able to talk, and see, and think, and so on."

GRACE: Dr. Eric Braverman, are we convinced that Terri Schiavo feels nothing? I find it hard to believe that -- taking someone off a ventilator, that`s one thing, but allowing them to starve to death?

DR. ERIC BRAVERMAN, DIRECTOR OF PATH MEDICAL: I appreciate your empathy, but Terri has been dead for a very long time, essentially. And she has gone to God. And what you have there is a brain essentially filled with water and a flat line EEG of a persistent vegetative state.

And you need to understand that the empathy is being misplaced. We have a brain health crisis in this country, and this person has been essentially brain dead. Nobody has any hope of function -- even if it was MCS, a minimally conscious state, she would never recover. What you`re looking there is a corpse and an embalmed individual that is being preserved unnaturally, a waste of medical resources, a misunderstanding of false hope that`s been projected. It is a tragedy.

GRACE: Dr. Braverman, have you ever actually seen Terri Schiavo?

BRAVERMAN: I have spoken with Dr. Cranford. Actually, doctors don`t need to see the patient. The video analysis is a deception. What doctors need is to know a flat line EEG. I`ve kept hamster brains alive and guinea pig brains alive for ten hours in a dish and they had more EEG activity. You have to understand...

GRACE: Sanjay...

BRAVERMAN: You have to understand. She has less brain activity than animals. She has a brain filled with water or cerebral spinal fluid.

GRACE: Let me go very quickly to Dr. Gupta. Response, Sanjay?

GUPTA: First of all, you know, she doesn`t have a flat EEG. And I think that everyone who initially said that has disagreed that she has a flat EEG. Calling her brain dead just is not right.

And whether or not she`s in a persistent vegetative state, or a permanent vegetative state, or a minimally conscience, you can argue those terms, but I think it`s irresponsible probably to keep saying that she is brain dead. Because clearly you can look at that person and see that she`s not brain dead. It doesn`t add anything to the argument here, Nancy.

GRACE: Very quickly to Dr. Joseph Deltito, a medical doctor and professor of psychiatry. Response, Dr. Deltito?

DR. JOSEPH DELTITO, PROF. OF PSYCHIATRY: I disagree strongly with the Dr. Braverman. There`s no way with metaphysical certitude that we could know that this woman doesn`t have some limited consciousness, some limited awareness. The nature of our science now, in terms of imaging techniques, EEG, does not definitively tell us exactly what`s going on in that brain.

The type of things that Dr. Wecht talked about in terms of post-mortem will give us more information. The very need to do a post-mortem is to investigate these things inside the brain, not outside the brain. I think it`s barbaric that we should be starving this woman.

GRACE: Dr. Deltito, the stark contrast between the husband -- and I don`t want her to suffer. If it were a matter of removing her from a ventilator and she would die soon after, I could take that a little bit better. But to let somebody lay there and starve, you wouldn`t even do that to a dog, for God`s sake.

DELTITO: Well, the husband has asserted over and over again that he believes that she is brain dead, that she is not home, that she doesn`t feel pain. In which case, what is he saving from suffering, if that`s his position? It`s not my position. But if his position, Michael Schiavo`s, is that this woman is essentially brain dead, that he believes that she`s not suffering. So there`s something here that logically doesn`t make sense, at least to me and, I think, to a lot of Americans.

GRACE: Well, the stark contrast between the parents wanting her to be fed, and he is planning her autopsy. Well, we could argue this all night.

Very quickly, to break. Please stay with us.


GRACE: Welcome back. There are death threats, protests, police arrests, all going down in and around the area surrounding Terri Schiavo. We are headed into day 13, no food, no water.

Very quickly to litigator Richard Herman. Anywhere for the parents to go now?

HERMAN: No, Nancy. The legal options have really been over since the last two weeks. They`ve tried. They`ve fought valiantly. But there`s nowhere legally for them to go.

GRACE: Joe Episcopo, true or false?

EPISCOPO: Ten more judges have affirmed Judge Greer. And the Supreme Court will reject this for the sixth and possibly record time.

GRACE: Washington Post reporter Manuel Roig-Franzia is with us.

Manuel, I have heard conflicting reports there in Florida. What are the doctors saying as to how much longer Terri Schiavo can live?

ROIG-FRANZIA: No one knows for sure. It`s a guessing game. It`s a land of speculation when it comes to that. Doctors have said two weeks possibly, but it could be shorter, it could be longer. No one knows.


Dr. Deltito, I only have one minute left. Response?

DELTITO: It`s amazing that she has lived this long. I`ve never heard of someone who was torpedoed and in a lifeboat for 19 days and was rescued at the end who said that going without water, going without food was just idyllic. I think this woman is probably suffering, and it`s a barbaric thing we`re doing to starve her this way.

GRACE: To Dr. Patricia Saunders, why is everyone so convinced they know what Terri Schiavo feels?

SAUNDERS: It`s like the Rorschach inkblot, Nancy. People see what they want to see, what they need to see. It`s ambiguous. We don`t know, so people project.

GRACE: Well, I know one thing. I sure as heck don`t want a judge to tell me about life or death of somebody in my family or myself.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, Manuel Roig-Franzia in Florida, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, Dr. Wecht, Dr. Braverman, Dr. Deltito, Jim Moret, Joe Episcopo, Richard Herman, Anne Bremner, and Dr. Patricia Saunders. Earlier, Ed Lavandera, Ernie Allen and Jake Goldenflame.

But my biggest thank you as always is to you for being with us tonight and inviting all of us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I hope I see you here tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.


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