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CNN Live Today
Terri Schiavo Dies
Aired March 31, 2005 - 10:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: As we get close to the top of the hour, for those of you just joining us, let's go back to our breaking and developing news. Terri Schiavo has died.
She was 41 years old. The death comes 15 years after she collapsed in her own home, suffered brain damage, and many, many years of legal fights. Also, it comes 14 days after her husband won a long legal fight to have her feeding tube removed.
According to wire reports, Terri Schiavo died at 9:05 a.m. Eastern. So we're coming up on about two hours ago.
It was about an hour and 10 minutes ago that a spokesman for the Schindler family, Brother Paul O'Donnell, came to the microphones outside the hospice in Pinellas Park and made this statement. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRO. PAUL O'DONNELL, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPOKESMAN: It is with great sadness that it has been reported to us that Terri Schiavo has passed away. The family will be making a statement sometime today. But please, out of respect, we ask that you not hound them when we come out.
It's our understanding through David Gibbs that Terri has passed away. The family will make a public statement sometime today.
Thank you.
QUESTION: Brother Paul, can you repeat that?
QUESTION: Will it be here?
O'DONNELL: We will let you know. We will let you know. All right.
It is my understanding through David Gibbs that Terri Schiavo has passed away just a little while ago. Bobby, Suzanne, Mary and Bob are in there now at Terri's bedside. They were denied access at the moment of her death.
They've been requesting, as you know, for the last hour, to try to be in there, and they were denied access by Michael Schiavo. They are in there now praying at her bedside. They will come out later today and make a statement.
We will let you know. That's all the information I have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Certainly any time that we hear from Schindler family or from the Schiavo family, we'll bring you those comments live here on CNN.
Our Bob Franken has been outside the hospice in Pinellas Park for many days now and joins us live -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Daryn, we just witnessed again the contradiction between the very public nature of this and the private tragedy of it. The family that has spent so much time speaking with cameras, in effect, saying it will try and meet what is viewed as their obligation to one more time describe their feelings on the death of Terri Schiavo, their deep, deep feelings of sadness. But right now, as anybody can understand, they want some time away from all the frenetic activity to mourn this private loss, the loss of Terri Schiavo.
Now, this does not mean that the bitterness ends. This unusual -- this intense acrimony goes on. And now the issue shifts to what will be done with the body of Terri Schiavo.
Where there is agreement -- where there is agreement is that she will be -- be removed to have an autopsy. That is something that is expected to happen in the not too distant future.
Then, according to the wishes of Michael Schiavo, the husband, who is the guardian, she will be taken to Pennsylvania after she is cremated here. The family bitterly opposes this, saying that that violates her Catholic doctrine, their Catholic doctrine. And they still are insisting that the burial be here near her blood relatives. But at the moment, Michael Schiavo plans to cremate and then take the remains to Pennsylvania for a service.
We're expecting that there will be a memorial service here. In fact, I think it's fair to say that there are going to be memorial services, plural. The people who have been out here have been conducting services. Many of them very profoundly religious, and they've been conducting their services both organized and sometimes just impromptu for almost the entire time we have been here.
But through all this, through all the public display of the issues, through the involvement of Congress, an extraordinary fashion through the involvement of the courts, once again. An extraordinary fashion. This is a death that's a very quiet, private matter and something that the family had to go through on public display, but still a very personal matter -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Bob Franken live in Pinellas Park. Bob, we'll be back to you.
You know, for so many people Terri Schiavo became a symbol, a symbol of their beliefs, a symbol to fight for, to fight against. But really in the end she was a woman, a 41-year-old woman who 15 years ago collapsed and suffered brain damage in her own home.
Right now let's go to our John Zarrella, who takes a look at the life and the person of Terri Schiavo.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Terri Schiavo was 26 years old when her life and the lives of those who loved her changed forever. Heart failure stopped the flow of oxygen and left her severely brain damaged. For the next 15 years, her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, believing their daughter could be rehabilitated with therapy, fought to have her kept alive.
MARY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S MOTHER: I have always thought there was hope. When I go in there, you know, and she responds to me, she knows I'm there.
ZARRELLA: Although Terri did not leave written instructions, Michael Schiavo insisted his wife made it clear she would never want to live on life support.
MICHAEL SCHIAVO, TERRI SCHIAVO'S HUSBAND: She didn't want to be kept alive on anything artificial. She didn't want any tubes. She didn't want to be a burden to people. She's made that comment to me, she's made the comments to other people also.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On page 14 of the initial brief...
ZARRELLA: The battle over what was best for Terri went to state and federal court and through the appeals process. In nearly every instance, the courts sided with her husband.
In the eyes of the Florida circuit court, Terri Schiavo was in a "persistent vegetative state." The court ruled there was no evidence that therapy would lead to any form of recovery.
In October, 2003, Terri's feeding tube was removed. Outside the hospice, people who believed that rehabilitation should be given a chance prayed. The family, out of legal options, met with Governor Jeb Bush, asking him to intervene.
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: I don't have the power to overrule a court decision.
ZARRELLA: Six days later, he got it. The Florida legislature passed Terri's Law, which allowed Bush to order Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted. He did.
Michael Schiavo immediately challenged the constitutionality of Terri's Law. It was ultimately ruled unconstitutional.
BUSH: In my heart I believe we did what was right, but I'm respectful of the Supreme Court's decision.
ZARRELLA: Terri's parents tried other strategies in state court. Those, too, failed. On Friday, March 18 of this year, her feeding tube was again removed. With time running out, the U.S. Congress stepped into the fray.
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: A young woman in Florida is being dehydrated and starved to death.
ZARRELLA: Over the Palm Sunday weekend, Congress, in short order, passed, and President Bush signed, legislation giving the Florida federal court jurisdiction in the case. The courts, all the way up to the Supreme Court, refused to intervene.
With their daughter slowly dying, Bob and Mary Schindler kept vigil at the hospice, praying for a miracle. Perhaps it would come from the governor, the state legislature.
SCHINDLER: Please, senators, for the love of god, I'm begging you, don't let my daughter die of thirst.
ZARRELLA: But one after the other, efforts failed. Terri Schiavo's life was defined by a bitter fight she had no control over. And the fight only ended when that "pretty little girl with the big smile," as husband Michael called her, passed away.
John Zarrella, CNN, Pinellas Park, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: This has brought up so many questions of ethics, the Terri Schiavo case. On many occasions we've taken the opportunity to talk with Art Caplan from the University of Pennsylvania. That is his business and his passion, bioethicist Art Caplan.
Art, good morning.
ART CAPLAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Good morning. Thanks for having me.
KAGAN: The ethics involved in the Terri Schiavo case -- you know, Art, I'm going to get to you in a moment. First, I want to draw our viewers attention to this live picture.
This is just outside the hospice in Pinellas Park. There has been a lot of action, a lot of attention with this white van. What it has, if it's any relationship to the Terri Schiavo story, we have not confirmed that at that point. But we are keeping an eye on the live pictures. So that's why you're seeing that.
All right, Art. Let me bring you in here. And talk about the ethics involved.
It seems like just as the doctors were able to look at the same patient, the same set of information and come away with a different conclusion, the ethics that are involved here, it seems like what kind of beliefs you bring to the story.
CAPLAN: It very much is a question of fundamental ethics. And I'd put it this way... one side has been arguing, Terri's parents most vociferously, but with many, many supporters, pro life, that life always must be maintained, even if it is with an artificial feeding tube, even if it is through the administration of medical technology.
The other side has been arguing, everyone has the right to control their medical care in the United States, and that you have the right to say no. The Jehovah's witness does, the Christian scientist does, the blood transfusions for the Jehovah's witness. Terri Schiavo does. She doesn't lose that right even if she becomes unconscious.
So one core ethical battle, life versus liberty, if you will. Another one, is a feeding tube a treatment?
Now, we've heard up and down, back and forth, we've heard from Rome all the way to the Academy of Neurology in the United States. There is clearly a Catholic position that says it's not a treatment. And the pope himself now has a feeding tube as almost a demonstration of the belief that this is an ordinary thing.
In American medicine, a feeding tube is always seen as a treatment. And by the U.S. Supreme Court, back to 1990, always seen as a medical treatment. That, in fact, is how I see it. But that is certainly going to be debated throughout the rest of this year and for years to come, is a feeding tube a treatment.
The other key ethics issue we're looking at here is who should decide when you can't. There is no debate that if you're competent, you decide what happens to you. You decide to disconnect things. You even decide if you want to go to the doctor and all. And some people don't, even when they have terrible diseases.
So competent people absolutely have the right to control their care. What the Schiavo case brought home is, who should make that decision?
Some argue the husband. Some argue the parents. Some argue the husband has been disqualified because he basically moved on to another life with another woman.
He said, I still lived with her until she had her fatal -- not fatal -- excuse me -- damaging, brain-damaging heart attack. I know what she wanted, I was there, I know best. And that's going to become quite a battle.
KAGAN: Art, let me just jump in here. I'm interested in your thoughts -- of course we have a lot of developments coming in at one time, so I'm going to get back to you in just a moment.
CAPLAN: Sure.
KAGAN: I want to bring to our viewers' attention any minute now we're expecting some videotape in from Governor Jeb Bush of Florida, commenting on the death, also the life and the legal struggles of Terri Schiavo.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BUSH: Well, it's heartbreaking, to be honest with you. My thoughts and prayers go out to her family, to all the people that wanted -- wanted her to live, and to everybody. This was a very, very emotional couple of weeks. And I would hope that from this, that all of us can grow as people in terms of our appreciation for end-of-life issues.
The mystery of life itself is pretty wondrous and how we -- how we deal with life itself. I mean, the beginning of life and the end of life is something I think we need to learn how to do better.
And it's not all about laws, although I do think there is probably some -- down the road we should reflect on this experience and maybe look at some of our laws. But it's also just as individuals, how do we prepare for these issues and handle it in a way that makes a little more sense than what Terri Schiavo had to go through.
QUESTION: Representative (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a couple of times has said she would be a martyr in future political and social debates about this. Would you concur with that?
BUSH: I think she -- I don't know about the politics of this, to be honest with you. This is -- this issue transcends politics, to be honest. And I think she will be -- her experience will -- will heighten awareness of the importance of families dealing with end-of- life issues. And that is an incredible legacy.
The politics takes care of itself. The emotions of politics ebbs and flows. You know, that's just the way it is.
But as a society, as we live longer, it's important for us to deal with these issues. And here we are in Florida. I don't know if it was meant to be. It seems like Florida is a place where these things play out more often than not.
QUESTION: You feel OK in your heart that you did what you could on behalf of Terri Schiavo?
BUSH: I wish I could have done more. That's the sadness in my heart, is that the duties I have I take seriously. And, you know, for the last -- the last year and a half, this has been a front-burner issue -- at certain times more than others, but -- in this office. And there were a lot of really dedicated people that have worked really hard to protect Terri Schiavo in this office. And in the end, there were limitations on what we could do.
QUESTION: Do you feel like the debate on this (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Do you feel like the debate and the time that's up here has taken some of the emphasis away from this?
BUSH: I think this issue transcends politics and policy. So, yes, it's taken -- deservedly so, has taken attention away from other matters. But having said that, we've got time to deal with the policy initiatives of the leaders in the legislature and our agenda. So we'll continue to do our work.
QUESTION: Is this the toughest thing you've ever had to deal with, Governor? BUSH: As governor? I've had challenges in my personal life that have created the same emotional challenge. But as governor this has been the toughest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, you guys. Thank you.
BUSH: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: Governor Jeb Bush of Florida saying that as governor, this is the toughest issue he has had to deal with. He says he doesn't believe this is about politics, it transcends politics. He says he wish he could have done more for Terri Schiavo, and that is really what causes the most amount of sadness in his heart. But he believes that legally he did everything that he could.
His brother, President Bush, about 25 minutes from now expected to come out and make a live statement. You'll see that live here on CNN.
Right now with me here in the studio I have Reverend Jesse Jackson, who you are just moments away from -- were you with the Schindler family through so many of these days. Have you had a chance to talk with them this morning?
REV. JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW PUSH COALITION: Well, I've talked with some this morning, and tried to prepare them yesterday for what was at that point inevitable as the -- as the doors that they sought open were being closed in their faces. And I'm pained over her death, in part because it was induced by a cut-off of food and water.
And while brain damage was a big issue, in the end the family feud became an even bigger issue. The politics of the family feud was a huge factor in who had custody, the quality of care.
KAGAN: Even to the final moments, Reverend, the dispute about who get to be with Terri Schiavo in her final moments.
JACKSON: And beyond. So as we speak about the lessons learned from this, one lesson, of course, is the living will. That's an issue. Family reconciliation is also a big issue in this. And since the Congress got involved, public policy is an issue.
The Congress seemed to be more focused on challenging the judiciary, which was a real political issue, as opposed to what Congress does best, which is do what? Long-term health care. That's an issue here. Medical malpractice is an issue here, how we handle our growing aged population.
So the Congress can now get on with the business, in my judgment, of focusing on health care policy and appropriation, which it can no longer avoid.
KAGAN: Let me just jump in here, because we're talking here in Atlanta. We're also watching those live pictures from Pinellas Park. We watched this white van that has pulled up to the back of the hospice where Terri Schiavo died just over two years ago. We have no exact word, confirmed word, on what the involvement of this van is. And yet, it is receiving some type of police escort.
So it's possible at this point that perhaps that van carries Terri Schiavo away. We have no way of confirming that at this point.
Reverend, talk a little, because you were so close to the Schindler family, about the family drama. We have made reference that this is a situation that families all across America face every day. It is so sad that this family that, for the first few years of this crisis was so bonded and so together, ended up so divided.
JACKSON: At some point the family broke. And usually when families break, everything else falls in between.
In thin stance Terri fell in between the cracks to some extent over this family fight, you know, about custody. I thought that Mary Schindler's appeal the other night was so profound when she said, Mike, if you must move on with your life, we accept that. But let us have our child.
That was a very gut-wrenching, emotional appeal by the mother because Michael must not be seen as just the ultimate bad guy. He had to live for 15 years with an incapacitated life. To some extent he did move on. But in this moving on it created this family gap here. And I just wish frankly that up to the end he had the power with the courts to provide her that last measure of devotion, food and water.
KAGAN: Reverend Jackson, stay with us here.
My colleague, Anderson Cooper, is actually on the ground there in Pinellas Park.
Anderson, you have a few questions for Reverend Jackson yourself. Good morning.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Daryn. And I can tell you that van just passed by the location where we're standing by the media area. And it also passed by a memorial service which is happening right now for Terri Schiavo. Protesters here, several dozen, who have been here really for all of these almost two weeks are gathered in prayer for the soul of Terri Schiavo.
Reverend Jackson, we spoke yesterday. I sat with you in the meeting with the Schindlers that you held. You seemed to be trying to prepare them in a way for what would end up happening today.
Do you think they were ready for this? Do you think they were -- they had accepted what was going to happen?
JACKSON: They were ready. They had, of course, this last ray of optimism and hope. But they also were facing the inevitability, because with each passing day, lack of food, lack of water was going to trigger at some point the kidney collapse. And then there would be heart failure and then she would die. And so they faced that.
And so I said to them, at a time when fate deals you such a cruel hand, lean to your faith and use your love. And while you are losing a daughter, thank god for what's left. You still have another daughter left. You have a son left.
And therefore, lean upon them. But through it all, do not get bitter. Get better.
And thank god for the legacy of your daughter, because her legacy has forced the nation to focus on health care in ways the nation would have ignored. I mean, we cannot deal the past issue now of medical malpractice which helped to sustain her. We cannot deal past the issue of Social Security versus Medicaid, for example. We can't deal past the issue right now of long-term health care.
I thought she received excellent hospice care. But in the end, when they pulled the plug, which was a judgment that was made, it certainly induced her death. And the family was keenly angry over that. But I urged them to get past that anger and now move on to the next stage of how they reconcile.
COOPER: Reverend Jackson, where does it go from here? I mean, you had talked about, you know, the battle will continue. How does the battle continue? Where does it go? Because as you yourself have said, this has brought Terri Schiavo -- her life, her journey to death, has brought together coalitions of people who perhaps normally wouldn't be joined.
You being here, Randall Terry here, formerly from Operation Rescue. Can that coalition stay together? Because some of the issues which you are talking about, medical malpractice insurance, universal health care, those aren't issues that some more conservative people agree on.
JACKSON: Well, I'll tell you what, there is nobody who is conservative but disagrees with her winning malpractice. They would not disagree with her having Medicaid or long-term health care.
I think sometimes that we talk past each other in these kinds of political polarizations. There are some, you know, who really are sincerely concerned about abortion, and they will fight for the fetus. But then the fight against prenatal care, head start (ph) and daycare, they must grapple with this issue in broader terms.
Now, there are those who will really embrace Terri and loved her as a symbol and love her as a classic crisis, and yet they must also deal with what she needed, which was long-term health care. And so I think if we see this thing right and talk with each other and not at each other, that the long-term health policy issues are now front and center. I think we should all be part of that debate in a creative and unbitter and non-hostile way.
COOPER: Daryn, let me tell you, it was a very emotional meeting that I sat in with Reverend Jackson. It ended in a small prayer circle. Reverend Jackson holding hands with Mrs. Schindler, with Terri Schiavo's mother, who is holding hands with her husband. Bob Schindler, who ended in tears after Reverend Jackson said a very moving prayer for Terri Schiavo.
Daryn, it was an extraordinary moment. And it continues to be a very emotional day here at the site of Pinellas Park.
KAGAN: I can imagine. Anderson, we'll get back to you in Pinellas Park in just a minute.
Reverend Jackson, thank you for your time and for sharing your insight during this difficult time.
JACKSON: Thank you.
KAGAN: I understand we're not letting you go just yet. You stay right there.
We're also getting word that President Bush actually will be speaking earlier than first expected. The first word we had heard 11:41, but now we're hearing 11:31. So a president who keeps pretty close to his schedule should be speaking in about six or seven minutes.
Right now, let's go back to the phones. Tim LaHaye, well known and best-selling Christian author, joining me now on the phone.
Mr. LaHaye, thank you for joining us.
TIM LAHAYE, "LEFT BEHIND" SERIES: My pleasure.
KAGAN: What do you think the Terri Schiavo story and ultimately what has happened here, how it leads to this spiritual discussion taking place in this country?
LAHAYE: Of course it's been one of the saddest things that's happened in our lifetime with one individual. But the thing that I'm concerned about is, is this the first step down the slippery slope to recognizing euthanasia and putting in the hands of a single person just because he's a judge the right to choose life or death for another person?
I don't believe that our founding fathers intended for judges to have that automatic power, even above the U.S. Congress and the president. I think that's kind of a frightening result of this whole unfortunate problem.
KAGAN: Tim, when you say one person, this is, I'm sure as you know, a story that families across America face on every given day. And these are issues that families are facing.
What do you think in terms of the discussion of what this has brought up, what this does to families in America?
LAHAYE: Well, I think it should make them realize the importance of life and importance of their family and how precious life is. And I think it has accomplished that in many good respects, but it also points out that a person's relationship to god is very important.
And you never know when some tragedy is going to befall you or someone in your family. And a person's preparation for eternity has to be made in advance.
And fortunately, I think the message has gotten out that you have to have your peace with god settled between you and him long before you lose consciousness of your own intelligence and command of your own thinking. That's why faith is such an important part of a person's life.
JACKSON: You know, this is a case where faith and public policy came together. Faith sustained them.
KAGAN: When you say "them," do you mean the Schindler family?
JACKSON: The Schindlers. I mean, faith sustained them. But a public policy of health care also kept her alive and enabled her to have hospice care, enabled her to get medical care.
So people of faith -- I mean, Jesus taught by example and he also taught by parable. So what do we glean from this that has value beyond Terri and what's there?
About 30,000 other people in the same or similar conditions. What shall we do for those who are not under the lights of TV every day as she has been? And I would contend that people of faith must now fight for a health care policy that in fact addresses more meaning to those who will be living longer as America grows older.
KAGAN: So you think, Reverend Jackson, it's about fighting for health care policy. Tim, do you think in addressing people of faith it's about something else, or do you agree with Reverend Jackson?
LAHAYE: I think that the brevity of life is always an important factor to learn. And we can all learn from this.
And again, I come back to the point that your personal faith in Jesus Christ is important in settling where you're going to spend eternity. And I hope that message will come through, that it's not just something that because you'd live a tragic life or have a tragic death that you're automatically going to get into the gates of heaven. It's a matter of personal faith in Christ that you have to prepare for before you come into a situation like this.
JACKSON: She had faith, which was a strong thing for this family. But she also had good health care.
KAGAN: Well, let me point out something she didn't have in trerms of preparation. She did not have a living will.
And as important, as what Tim LaHaye was talking about, in being prepared spiritually, has there not been a message to Americans, to families as well, to get your wishes, to whether it's your faith or what you ultimately want to happen to you, to get it and put it down on paper?
JACKSON: A living will is absolutely essential. And we should learn that lesson. But this family feud is of such that even that may not have been enough, interpretation about the living will, the fact that Michael moved on with his life, the fact that she was a sick so long.
And so while a living will is a significant deal, it seems to me we should all think about that now. But family reconciliation, families having prayer. I mean she fell between the cracks of a big fight.
So in end she had -- Michael had law but didn't have mercy. And law without mercy is cruel and cold. Law with -- mercy must inform law to bring about reasonable justice.
She fell between the cracks ultimately of a great family struggle. And even now, will she be buried in Florida as the family wants? Will she be cremated and put across the hills of Pennsylvania? So even beyond death that struggle continues.
KAGAN: Even beyond, after she dies, the family feud goes on.
Reverend Jackson, stay with us.
Tim LaHaye, thank you for your thoughts and joining us on the telephone this morning.
We're just a few minutes away, expecting to hear from President Bush. He expects to speak at 11:31 a.m. Eastern. Again, commenting first on the death of Terri Schiavo. According to our report, she passed away today at 9:05 a.m. Eastern.
Our White House correspondent Dana Bash standing by as we wait the president -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Daryn.
Well, of course the president is coming into this room to talk about this report that he has gotten from a commission that he appointed that's had a year to work to try to figure out why exactly the intelligence was, as this report said, so dead wrong that he got on Iraq and it's alleged at the time weapons of mass destruction programs. But as you mentioned, Mr. Bush will be starting here talking about the Terri Schiavo case.
We have only heard from Mr. Bush publicly twice talking about Terri Schiavo. We've of course heard from his aides talking about the fact that he believes that -- he has believed all along the courts should err on the side of life. Of course, the courts that he tried to get involved, the federal courts, refused to do so, and at this point we're going to hear from the president very shortly about the passing of Terri Schiavo.
KAGAN: As you were mentioning, Dana, this was a news conference that was previously scheduled to talk about a completely different matter. And yet we do expect the news conference to begin with the comments about Terri Schiavo.
BASH: That's correct. That's correct.
The president will be talking very briefly about this report that he is going to get, the more than 500-page report, not just about what went wrong, but the pretty detailed recommendations of how to fix the problems of intelligence. But he will be starting with a comment on Terri Schiavo.
And I'm going to toss it back to you because we are going to hear from the president very shortly.
KAGAN: We are getting the word. We can hear in the background the announcement that President Bush will be soon coming in the room. And when he does, we will be listening -- oh, that was just our two- minute warning.
BASH: That's correct.
KAGAN: All right. Well, don't go anywhere quite yet...
BASH: OK.
KAGAN: ... until we actually hear from the president. This other matter, this report on the weapons of mass destruction, this was a commission that the president himself called together to look at what happened leading up to the events of the war in Iraq.
BASH: That's right. We've had several commissions looking at intelligence and making recommendations really that ultimately led in to some pretty big legislation transforming the intelligence community. But this is the first commission...
KAGAN: Dana...
BASH: Go ahead.
KAGAN: Dana, I'm just going to jump in here, just a minute before President Bush arrives, because of our Susan Candiotti on the phone from Florida with a bit of information that we want to get in before the president begins to speak -- Susan.
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Aired March 31, 2005 - 10:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: As we get close to the top of the hour, for those of you just joining us, let's go back to our breaking and developing news. Terri Schiavo has died.
She was 41 years old. The death comes 15 years after she collapsed in her own home, suffered brain damage, and many, many years of legal fights. Also, it comes 14 days after her husband won a long legal fight to have her feeding tube removed.
According to wire reports, Terri Schiavo died at 9:05 a.m. Eastern. So we're coming up on about two hours ago.
It was about an hour and 10 minutes ago that a spokesman for the Schindler family, Brother Paul O'Donnell, came to the microphones outside the hospice in Pinellas Park and made this statement. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRO. PAUL O'DONNELL, SCHINDLER FAMILY SPOKESMAN: It is with great sadness that it has been reported to us that Terri Schiavo has passed away. The family will be making a statement sometime today. But please, out of respect, we ask that you not hound them when we come out.
It's our understanding through David Gibbs that Terri has passed away. The family will make a public statement sometime today.
Thank you.
QUESTION: Brother Paul, can you repeat that?
QUESTION: Will it be here?
O'DONNELL: We will let you know. We will let you know. All right.
It is my understanding through David Gibbs that Terri Schiavo has passed away just a little while ago. Bobby, Suzanne, Mary and Bob are in there now at Terri's bedside. They were denied access at the moment of her death.
They've been requesting, as you know, for the last hour, to try to be in there, and they were denied access by Michael Schiavo. They are in there now praying at her bedside. They will come out later today and make a statement.
We will let you know. That's all the information I have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAGAN: Certainly any time that we hear from Schindler family or from the Schiavo family, we'll bring you those comments live here on CNN.
Our Bob Franken has been outside the hospice in Pinellas Park for many days now and joins us live -- Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Daryn, we just witnessed again the contradiction between the very public nature of this and the private tragedy of it. The family that has spent so much time speaking with cameras, in effect, saying it will try and meet what is viewed as their obligation to one more time describe their feelings on the death of Terri Schiavo, their deep, deep feelings of sadness. But right now, as anybody can understand, they want some time away from all the frenetic activity to mourn this private loss, the loss of Terri Schiavo.
Now, this does not mean that the bitterness ends. This unusual -- this intense acrimony goes on. And now the issue shifts to what will be done with the body of Terri Schiavo.
Where there is agreement -- where there is agreement is that she will be -- be removed to have an autopsy. That is something that is expected to happen in the not too distant future.
Then, according to the wishes of Michael Schiavo, the husband, who is the guardian, she will be taken to Pennsylvania after she is cremated here. The family bitterly opposes this, saying that that violates her Catholic doctrine, their Catholic doctrine. And they still are insisting that the burial be here near her blood relatives. But at the moment, Michael Schiavo plans to cremate and then take the remains to Pennsylvania for a service.
We're expecting that there will be a memorial service here. In fact, I think it's fair to say that there are going to be memorial services, plural. The people who have been out here have been conducting services. Many of them very profoundly religious, and they've been conducting their services both organized and sometimes just impromptu for almost the entire time we have been here.
But through all this, through all the public display of the issues, through the involvement of Congress, an extraordinary fashion through the involvement of the courts, once again. An extraordinary fashion. This is a death that's a very quiet, private matter and something that the family had to go through on public display, but still a very personal matter -- Daryn.
KAGAN: Bob Franken live in Pinellas Park. Bob, we'll be back to you.
You know, for so many people Terri Schiavo became a symbol, a symbol of their beliefs, a symbol to fight for, to fight against. But really in the end she was a woman, a 41-year-old woman who 15 years ago collapsed and suffered brain damage in her own home.
Right now let's go to our John Zarrella, who takes a look at the life and the person of Terri Schiavo.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Terri Schiavo was 26 years old when her life and the lives of those who loved her changed forever. Heart failure stopped the flow of oxygen and left her severely brain damaged. For the next 15 years, her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, believing their daughter could be rehabilitated with therapy, fought to have her kept alive.
MARY SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S MOTHER: I have always thought there was hope. When I go in there, you know, and she responds to me, she knows I'm there.
ZARRELLA: Although Terri did not leave written instructions, Michael Schiavo insisted his wife made it clear she would never want to live on life support.
MICHAEL SCHIAVO, TERRI SCHIAVO'S HUSBAND: She didn't want to be kept alive on anything artificial. She didn't want any tubes. She didn't want to be a burden to people. She's made that comment to me, she's made the comments to other people also.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On page 14 of the initial brief...
ZARRELLA: The battle over what was best for Terri went to state and federal court and through the appeals process. In nearly every instance, the courts sided with her husband.
In the eyes of the Florida circuit court, Terri Schiavo was in a "persistent vegetative state." The court ruled there was no evidence that therapy would lead to any form of recovery.
In October, 2003, Terri's feeding tube was removed. Outside the hospice, people who believed that rehabilitation should be given a chance prayed. The family, out of legal options, met with Governor Jeb Bush, asking him to intervene.
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: I don't have the power to overrule a court decision.
ZARRELLA: Six days later, he got it. The Florida legislature passed Terri's Law, which allowed Bush to order Schiavo's feeding tube reinserted. He did.
Michael Schiavo immediately challenged the constitutionality of Terri's Law. It was ultimately ruled unconstitutional.
BUSH: In my heart I believe we did what was right, but I'm respectful of the Supreme Court's decision.
ZARRELLA: Terri's parents tried other strategies in state court. Those, too, failed. On Friday, March 18 of this year, her feeding tube was again removed. With time running out, the U.S. Congress stepped into the fray.
REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), MAJORITY LEADER: A young woman in Florida is being dehydrated and starved to death.
ZARRELLA: Over the Palm Sunday weekend, Congress, in short order, passed, and President Bush signed, legislation giving the Florida federal court jurisdiction in the case. The courts, all the way up to the Supreme Court, refused to intervene.
With their daughter slowly dying, Bob and Mary Schindler kept vigil at the hospice, praying for a miracle. Perhaps it would come from the governor, the state legislature.
SCHINDLER: Please, senators, for the love of god, I'm begging you, don't let my daughter die of thirst.
ZARRELLA: But one after the other, efforts failed. Terri Schiavo's life was defined by a bitter fight she had no control over. And the fight only ended when that "pretty little girl with the big smile," as husband Michael called her, passed away.
John Zarrella, CNN, Pinellas Park, Florida.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: This has brought up so many questions of ethics, the Terri Schiavo case. On many occasions we've taken the opportunity to talk with Art Caplan from the University of Pennsylvania. That is his business and his passion, bioethicist Art Caplan.
Art, good morning.
ART CAPLAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Good morning. Thanks for having me.
KAGAN: The ethics involved in the Terri Schiavo case -- you know, Art, I'm going to get to you in a moment. First, I want to draw our viewers attention to this live picture.
This is just outside the hospice in Pinellas Park. There has been a lot of action, a lot of attention with this white van. What it has, if it's any relationship to the Terri Schiavo story, we have not confirmed that at that point. But we are keeping an eye on the live pictures. So that's why you're seeing that.
All right, Art. Let me bring you in here. And talk about the ethics involved.
It seems like just as the doctors were able to look at the same patient, the same set of information and come away with a different conclusion, the ethics that are involved here, it seems like what kind of beliefs you bring to the story.
CAPLAN: It very much is a question of fundamental ethics. And I'd put it this way... one side has been arguing, Terri's parents most vociferously, but with many, many supporters, pro life, that life always must be maintained, even if it is with an artificial feeding tube, even if it is through the administration of medical technology.
The other side has been arguing, everyone has the right to control their medical care in the United States, and that you have the right to say no. The Jehovah's witness does, the Christian scientist does, the blood transfusions for the Jehovah's witness. Terri Schiavo does. She doesn't lose that right even if she becomes unconscious.
So one core ethical battle, life versus liberty, if you will. Another one, is a feeding tube a treatment?
Now, we've heard up and down, back and forth, we've heard from Rome all the way to the Academy of Neurology in the United States. There is clearly a Catholic position that says it's not a treatment. And the pope himself now has a feeding tube as almost a demonstration of the belief that this is an ordinary thing.
In American medicine, a feeding tube is always seen as a treatment. And by the U.S. Supreme Court, back to 1990, always seen as a medical treatment. That, in fact, is how I see it. But that is certainly going to be debated throughout the rest of this year and for years to come, is a feeding tube a treatment.
The other key ethics issue we're looking at here is who should decide when you can't. There is no debate that if you're competent, you decide what happens to you. You decide to disconnect things. You even decide if you want to go to the doctor and all. And some people don't, even when they have terrible diseases.
So competent people absolutely have the right to control their care. What the Schiavo case brought home is, who should make that decision?
Some argue the husband. Some argue the parents. Some argue the husband has been disqualified because he basically moved on to another life with another woman.
He said, I still lived with her until she had her fatal -- not fatal -- excuse me -- damaging, brain-damaging heart attack. I know what she wanted, I was there, I know best. And that's going to become quite a battle.
KAGAN: Art, let me just jump in here. I'm interested in your thoughts -- of course we have a lot of developments coming in at one time, so I'm going to get back to you in just a moment.
CAPLAN: Sure.
KAGAN: I want to bring to our viewers' attention any minute now we're expecting some videotape in from Governor Jeb Bush of Florida, commenting on the death, also the life and the legal struggles of Terri Schiavo.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BUSH: Well, it's heartbreaking, to be honest with you. My thoughts and prayers go out to her family, to all the people that wanted -- wanted her to live, and to everybody. This was a very, very emotional couple of weeks. And I would hope that from this, that all of us can grow as people in terms of our appreciation for end-of-life issues.
The mystery of life itself is pretty wondrous and how we -- how we deal with life itself. I mean, the beginning of life and the end of life is something I think we need to learn how to do better.
And it's not all about laws, although I do think there is probably some -- down the road we should reflect on this experience and maybe look at some of our laws. But it's also just as individuals, how do we prepare for these issues and handle it in a way that makes a little more sense than what Terri Schiavo had to go through.
QUESTION: Representative (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a couple of times has said she would be a martyr in future political and social debates about this. Would you concur with that?
BUSH: I think she -- I don't know about the politics of this, to be honest with you. This is -- this issue transcends politics, to be honest. And I think she will be -- her experience will -- will heighten awareness of the importance of families dealing with end-of- life issues. And that is an incredible legacy.
The politics takes care of itself. The emotions of politics ebbs and flows. You know, that's just the way it is.
But as a society, as we live longer, it's important for us to deal with these issues. And here we are in Florida. I don't know if it was meant to be. It seems like Florida is a place where these things play out more often than not.
QUESTION: You feel OK in your heart that you did what you could on behalf of Terri Schiavo?
BUSH: I wish I could have done more. That's the sadness in my heart, is that the duties I have I take seriously. And, you know, for the last -- the last year and a half, this has been a front-burner issue -- at certain times more than others, but -- in this office. And there were a lot of really dedicated people that have worked really hard to protect Terri Schiavo in this office. And in the end, there were limitations on what we could do.
QUESTION: Do you feel like the debate on this (UNINTELLIGIBLE)? Do you feel like the debate and the time that's up here has taken some of the emphasis away from this?
BUSH: I think this issue transcends politics and policy. So, yes, it's taken -- deservedly so, has taken attention away from other matters. But having said that, we've got time to deal with the policy initiatives of the leaders in the legislature and our agenda. So we'll continue to do our work.
QUESTION: Is this the toughest thing you've ever had to deal with, Governor? BUSH: As governor? I've had challenges in my personal life that have created the same emotional challenge. But as governor this has been the toughest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, you guys. Thank you.
BUSH: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KAGAN: Governor Jeb Bush of Florida saying that as governor, this is the toughest issue he has had to deal with. He says he doesn't believe this is about politics, it transcends politics. He says he wish he could have done more for Terri Schiavo, and that is really what causes the most amount of sadness in his heart. But he believes that legally he did everything that he could.
His brother, President Bush, about 25 minutes from now expected to come out and make a live statement. You'll see that live here on CNN.
Right now with me here in the studio I have Reverend Jesse Jackson, who you are just moments away from -- were you with the Schindler family through so many of these days. Have you had a chance to talk with them this morning?
REV. JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW PUSH COALITION: Well, I've talked with some this morning, and tried to prepare them yesterday for what was at that point inevitable as the -- as the doors that they sought open were being closed in their faces. And I'm pained over her death, in part because it was induced by a cut-off of food and water.
And while brain damage was a big issue, in the end the family feud became an even bigger issue. The politics of the family feud was a huge factor in who had custody, the quality of care.
KAGAN: Even to the final moments, Reverend, the dispute about who get to be with Terri Schiavo in her final moments.
JACKSON: And beyond. So as we speak about the lessons learned from this, one lesson, of course, is the living will. That's an issue. Family reconciliation is also a big issue in this. And since the Congress got involved, public policy is an issue.
The Congress seemed to be more focused on challenging the judiciary, which was a real political issue, as opposed to what Congress does best, which is do what? Long-term health care. That's an issue here. Medical malpractice is an issue here, how we handle our growing aged population.
So the Congress can now get on with the business, in my judgment, of focusing on health care policy and appropriation, which it can no longer avoid.
KAGAN: Let me just jump in here, because we're talking here in Atlanta. We're also watching those live pictures from Pinellas Park. We watched this white van that has pulled up to the back of the hospice where Terri Schiavo died just over two years ago. We have no exact word, confirmed word, on what the involvement of this van is. And yet, it is receiving some type of police escort.
So it's possible at this point that perhaps that van carries Terri Schiavo away. We have no way of confirming that at this point.
Reverend, talk a little, because you were so close to the Schindler family, about the family drama. We have made reference that this is a situation that families all across America face every day. It is so sad that this family that, for the first few years of this crisis was so bonded and so together, ended up so divided.
JACKSON: At some point the family broke. And usually when families break, everything else falls in between.
In thin stance Terri fell in between the cracks to some extent over this family fight, you know, about custody. I thought that Mary Schindler's appeal the other night was so profound when she said, Mike, if you must move on with your life, we accept that. But let us have our child.
That was a very gut-wrenching, emotional appeal by the mother because Michael must not be seen as just the ultimate bad guy. He had to live for 15 years with an incapacitated life. To some extent he did move on. But in this moving on it created this family gap here. And I just wish frankly that up to the end he had the power with the courts to provide her that last measure of devotion, food and water.
KAGAN: Reverend Jackson, stay with us here.
My colleague, Anderson Cooper, is actually on the ground there in Pinellas Park.
Anderson, you have a few questions for Reverend Jackson yourself. Good morning.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Daryn. And I can tell you that van just passed by the location where we're standing by the media area. And it also passed by a memorial service which is happening right now for Terri Schiavo. Protesters here, several dozen, who have been here really for all of these almost two weeks are gathered in prayer for the soul of Terri Schiavo.
Reverend Jackson, we spoke yesterday. I sat with you in the meeting with the Schindlers that you held. You seemed to be trying to prepare them in a way for what would end up happening today.
Do you think they were ready for this? Do you think they were -- they had accepted what was going to happen?
JACKSON: They were ready. They had, of course, this last ray of optimism and hope. But they also were facing the inevitability, because with each passing day, lack of food, lack of water was going to trigger at some point the kidney collapse. And then there would be heart failure and then she would die. And so they faced that.
And so I said to them, at a time when fate deals you such a cruel hand, lean to your faith and use your love. And while you are losing a daughter, thank god for what's left. You still have another daughter left. You have a son left.
And therefore, lean upon them. But through it all, do not get bitter. Get better.
And thank god for the legacy of your daughter, because her legacy has forced the nation to focus on health care in ways the nation would have ignored. I mean, we cannot deal the past issue now of medical malpractice which helped to sustain her. We cannot deal past the issue of Social Security versus Medicaid, for example. We can't deal past the issue right now of long-term health care.
I thought she received excellent hospice care. But in the end, when they pulled the plug, which was a judgment that was made, it certainly induced her death. And the family was keenly angry over that. But I urged them to get past that anger and now move on to the next stage of how they reconcile.
COOPER: Reverend Jackson, where does it go from here? I mean, you had talked about, you know, the battle will continue. How does the battle continue? Where does it go? Because as you yourself have said, this has brought Terri Schiavo -- her life, her journey to death, has brought together coalitions of people who perhaps normally wouldn't be joined.
You being here, Randall Terry here, formerly from Operation Rescue. Can that coalition stay together? Because some of the issues which you are talking about, medical malpractice insurance, universal health care, those aren't issues that some more conservative people agree on.
JACKSON: Well, I'll tell you what, there is nobody who is conservative but disagrees with her winning malpractice. They would not disagree with her having Medicaid or long-term health care.
I think sometimes that we talk past each other in these kinds of political polarizations. There are some, you know, who really are sincerely concerned about abortion, and they will fight for the fetus. But then the fight against prenatal care, head start (ph) and daycare, they must grapple with this issue in broader terms.
Now, there are those who will really embrace Terri and loved her as a symbol and love her as a classic crisis, and yet they must also deal with what she needed, which was long-term health care. And so I think if we see this thing right and talk with each other and not at each other, that the long-term health policy issues are now front and center. I think we should all be part of that debate in a creative and unbitter and non-hostile way.
COOPER: Daryn, let me tell you, it was a very emotional meeting that I sat in with Reverend Jackson. It ended in a small prayer circle. Reverend Jackson holding hands with Mrs. Schindler, with Terri Schiavo's mother, who is holding hands with her husband. Bob Schindler, who ended in tears after Reverend Jackson said a very moving prayer for Terri Schiavo.
Daryn, it was an extraordinary moment. And it continues to be a very emotional day here at the site of Pinellas Park.
KAGAN: I can imagine. Anderson, we'll get back to you in Pinellas Park in just a minute.
Reverend Jackson, thank you for your time and for sharing your insight during this difficult time.
JACKSON: Thank you.
KAGAN: I understand we're not letting you go just yet. You stay right there.
We're also getting word that President Bush actually will be speaking earlier than first expected. The first word we had heard 11:41, but now we're hearing 11:31. So a president who keeps pretty close to his schedule should be speaking in about six or seven minutes.
Right now, let's go back to the phones. Tim LaHaye, well known and best-selling Christian author, joining me now on the phone.
Mr. LaHaye, thank you for joining us.
TIM LAHAYE, "LEFT BEHIND" SERIES: My pleasure.
KAGAN: What do you think the Terri Schiavo story and ultimately what has happened here, how it leads to this spiritual discussion taking place in this country?
LAHAYE: Of course it's been one of the saddest things that's happened in our lifetime with one individual. But the thing that I'm concerned about is, is this the first step down the slippery slope to recognizing euthanasia and putting in the hands of a single person just because he's a judge the right to choose life or death for another person?
I don't believe that our founding fathers intended for judges to have that automatic power, even above the U.S. Congress and the president. I think that's kind of a frightening result of this whole unfortunate problem.
KAGAN: Tim, when you say one person, this is, I'm sure as you know, a story that families across America face on every given day. And these are issues that families are facing.
What do you think in terms of the discussion of what this has brought up, what this does to families in America?
LAHAYE: Well, I think it should make them realize the importance of life and importance of their family and how precious life is. And I think it has accomplished that in many good respects, but it also points out that a person's relationship to god is very important.
And you never know when some tragedy is going to befall you or someone in your family. And a person's preparation for eternity has to be made in advance.
And fortunately, I think the message has gotten out that you have to have your peace with god settled between you and him long before you lose consciousness of your own intelligence and command of your own thinking. That's why faith is such an important part of a person's life.
JACKSON: You know, this is a case where faith and public policy came together. Faith sustained them.
KAGAN: When you say "them," do you mean the Schindler family?
JACKSON: The Schindlers. I mean, faith sustained them. But a public policy of health care also kept her alive and enabled her to have hospice care, enabled her to get medical care.
So people of faith -- I mean, Jesus taught by example and he also taught by parable. So what do we glean from this that has value beyond Terri and what's there?
About 30,000 other people in the same or similar conditions. What shall we do for those who are not under the lights of TV every day as she has been? And I would contend that people of faith must now fight for a health care policy that in fact addresses more meaning to those who will be living longer as America grows older.
KAGAN: So you think, Reverend Jackson, it's about fighting for health care policy. Tim, do you think in addressing people of faith it's about something else, or do you agree with Reverend Jackson?
LAHAYE: I think that the brevity of life is always an important factor to learn. And we can all learn from this.
And again, I come back to the point that your personal faith in Jesus Christ is important in settling where you're going to spend eternity. And I hope that message will come through, that it's not just something that because you'd live a tragic life or have a tragic death that you're automatically going to get into the gates of heaven. It's a matter of personal faith in Christ that you have to prepare for before you come into a situation like this.
JACKSON: She had faith, which was a strong thing for this family. But she also had good health care.
KAGAN: Well, let me point out something she didn't have in trerms of preparation. She did not have a living will.
And as important, as what Tim LaHaye was talking about, in being prepared spiritually, has there not been a message to Americans, to families as well, to get your wishes, to whether it's your faith or what you ultimately want to happen to you, to get it and put it down on paper?
JACKSON: A living will is absolutely essential. And we should learn that lesson. But this family feud is of such that even that may not have been enough, interpretation about the living will, the fact that Michael moved on with his life, the fact that she was a sick so long.
And so while a living will is a significant deal, it seems to me we should all think about that now. But family reconciliation, families having prayer. I mean she fell between the cracks of a big fight.
So in end she had -- Michael had law but didn't have mercy. And law without mercy is cruel and cold. Law with -- mercy must inform law to bring about reasonable justice.
She fell between the cracks ultimately of a great family struggle. And even now, will she be buried in Florida as the family wants? Will she be cremated and put across the hills of Pennsylvania? So even beyond death that struggle continues.
KAGAN: Even beyond, after she dies, the family feud goes on.
Reverend Jackson, stay with us.
Tim LaHaye, thank you for your thoughts and joining us on the telephone this morning.
We're just a few minutes away, expecting to hear from President Bush. He expects to speak at 11:31 a.m. Eastern. Again, commenting first on the death of Terri Schiavo. According to our report, she passed away today at 9:05 a.m. Eastern.
Our White House correspondent Dana Bash standing by as we wait the president -- Dana.
DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Daryn.
Well, of course the president is coming into this room to talk about this report that he has gotten from a commission that he appointed that's had a year to work to try to figure out why exactly the intelligence was, as this report said, so dead wrong that he got on Iraq and it's alleged at the time weapons of mass destruction programs. But as you mentioned, Mr. Bush will be starting here talking about the Terri Schiavo case.
We have only heard from Mr. Bush publicly twice talking about Terri Schiavo. We've of course heard from his aides talking about the fact that he believes that -- he has believed all along the courts should err on the side of life. Of course, the courts that he tried to get involved, the federal courts, refused to do so, and at this point we're going to hear from the president very shortly about the passing of Terri Schiavo.
KAGAN: As you were mentioning, Dana, this was a news conference that was previously scheduled to talk about a completely different matter. And yet we do expect the news conference to begin with the comments about Terri Schiavo.
BASH: That's correct. That's correct.
The president will be talking very briefly about this report that he is going to get, the more than 500-page report, not just about what went wrong, but the pretty detailed recommendations of how to fix the problems of intelligence. But he will be starting with a comment on Terri Schiavo.
And I'm going to toss it back to you because we are going to hear from the president very shortly.
KAGAN: We are getting the word. We can hear in the background the announcement that President Bush will be soon coming in the room. And when he does, we will be listening -- oh, that was just our two- minute warning.
BASH: That's correct.
KAGAN: All right. Well, don't go anywhere quite yet...
BASH: OK.
KAGAN: ... until we actually hear from the president. This other matter, this report on the weapons of mass destruction, this was a commission that the president himself called together to look at what happened leading up to the events of the war in Iraq.
BASH: That's right. We've had several commissions looking at intelligence and making recommendations really that ultimately led in to some pretty big legislation transforming the intelligence community. But this is the first commission...
KAGAN: Dana...
BASH: Go ahead.
KAGAN: Dana, I'm just going to jump in here, just a minute before President Bush arrives, because of our Susan Candiotti on the phone from Florida with a bit of information that we want to get in before the president begins to speak -- Susan.
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