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American Morning
Never Before Seen Videotape of Terri Schiavo; Were Shootings at Red Lake Reservation in Minnesota Part of a Wider Plot?
Aired March 31, 2005 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Never before seen videotape of Terri Schiavo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
OK. All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: There are major developments again this morning. New tapes opening a new window into her condition.
At the hospice, meanwhile, some anxious moments again. Family members turned away from seeing her after another abrupt Supreme Court ruling in the late-night hours.
Still, though, in Florida, passions are running high.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is happening here is a monumental disaster for our nation and for civilization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: An epic legal battle. But has that now come to an end, on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING, with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
Good morning, everyone. Good to have you along with us today, 7:00 in New York. I'm Bill Hemmer.
Soledad on vacation this week.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kyra Phillips. Good morning. Great to be with you.
HEMMER: It's great to have you here in New York. We got a three-hour ride here, OK?
PHILLIPS: It'll be easy.
HEMMER: Good to have you, Kyra.
There is a lot to cover this morning in the Terri Schiavo case. These new videotapes of Schiavo in her bed, in that hospice, a part of our coverage today. We had seen parts of these tapes in the past, but not all of them. They were shot in the summer of 2002, July of that year, and later used in a court hearing to determine Schiavo's condition. We'll talk to Sanjay in a moment and tray and gauge as best we can her condition on these videotapes. We'll also talk this morning with Father Frank Pavone. He's one of the Schindler family supporters. He was with Terri on Wednesday. We'll talk to him about what he saw.
But first let's go to Florida right now, check in again with Bob Franken outside the hospice in Pinellas Park.
And, Bob, 14 days now since that feeding tube was taken out. What are you hearing about her condition?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What I'm hearing is that this is a woman who is close to dying, a woman who the family still says is fighting for her life. But to be perfectly honest about it, those who have seen her most recently say that as anybody would expect, she is losing that fight. Her breathing is shallow. Her skin does not have the color that it had, and that it is just a very matter of just a very brief time. Perhaps past the time that any legal action would save her even if it was initiated. And by all accounts, the legal remedies have just about been exhausted. The biggest evidence of that, the action by the Supreme Court overnight to take no action, the sixth time that the U.S. Supreme Court, the highest court in the country, has refused to get involved in what most feel is a state matter when it comes to the legal system.
Now feelings here are running high. So high, as a matter of fact, that the police have instituted new security measures. When one drives into the street that leads to this hospice, you can expect to have your car searched. This is something that began after there were a couple of bomb threats phoned into the hospice, just the latest in a series of threats that have been made in connection with this case. There are very strong feelings, as I mentioned before, but inside the hospice where there is peace, Terri Schiavo is dying -- Bill.
HEMMER: Bob, tell me about the family. They came to visit. What happened?
FRANKEN: They have been turned away repeatedly. They are making the assumption that Michael Schiavo, who is Terri Schiavo's husband, and in effect, their arch adversary in this matter, has been inside the hospice. He has insisted as the guardian he has the right to set the rules here. He has insisted that he does not want the awkward moment where they are all in the same room, so family members have been frustrated throughout the night. They have not been able to make their visits.
HEMMER: Bob Franken in Pinellas Park. Bob, we will be with you throughout the morning there. And even though it's been nearly two weeks since Terri Schiavo has had food or water, her parents and her supporters continue to visit her, and when they come out, they continue to say that she looks good and remains alert.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S FATHER: Terri is still with us. She's -- under the circumstances, she looks darn good, surprisingly good.
JUDY BADER, SCHIAVO FAMILY FRIEND: Terri is very much awake. She's still trying to track people in the room with her eyes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Father Frank Pavone is the national director of Priests For Live. He's my guest now in Pinellas Park.
And, father, good morning to you.
You were with Terri yesterday? And you...
FATHER FRANK PAVONE, SCHINDLER FAMILY SUPPORTER: Yes, I was.
HEMMER: How did she look to you, father?
PAVONE: I visited her now four times and the two times I visited her before the feeding tube was removed, she was very alert, responsive, looked very good. Last night was a very different story. Her breathe shallow and rapid. Her eyes not quite able to focus as they were before. And yet, nevertheless, breathing on her own and still not unresponsive. It would be a mistake to characterize her as dying peacefully. I would use the word distress as more accurate.
HEMMER: What do you mean unresponsive? You're indicating there that she is responding in some way. How?
PAVONE: Yes, indeed. When I was praying with her extensively last night, her eyes although they are oscillating back and forth fairly rapidly, would tend to move in my direction. I don't think -- I know we're not dealing with someone here who is just lying down still with her eyes closed. She is very, very much still with us, as was already said by her dad.
HEMMER: It has been, father, 14 days now.
PAVONE: Yes.
HEMMER: Has her parents talked to you about accepting their daughter's death?
PAVONE: They are accepting the reality of what's going on here. Of course, they've been living with this for a very long time. And what is more difficult for them to accept is the philosophy behind those who want her to die, this idea some lives are not worth living. That really the thing that makes them even more sad than the eventual loss of their daughter.
HEMMER: What explains the fact she is still holding on? PAVONE: She does not have any terminal illness, and that's important for people to understand. She is, other than her disability caused by a brain injury, she's a healthy woman, and that's what makes this so tragic. We're starving a healthy woman. And so, and this does not -- you know, morally speaking, this does not fall into the category of when do we cease treating a dying person. Certainly there are such things as useless treatments that are not necessary when they will no longer do any good. But while there is such a thing as a useless treatment, there's no such thing as a useless life, and this is a person who because of her health and because of her relative young age is holding on remarkably well.
HEMMER: Let me ask you somewhat of an awkward question here. You have very critical of the governor and very critical of the state legislature in Tallahassee. Are you and others looking for someone to blame at this point for Terri Schiavo's condition?
PAVONE: No. And let me point out, I sincerely appreciate everything that the governor and the state legislature in Florida have done. I believe they are very sincere in their efforts in trying to help Terri, and it is not they particularly that I want to be critical of. It is an overall phenomenon across our country, namely that the executive and the legislative branches keep bowing to the judiciary. The courts don't have the final word. The way our Constitution is set up, those who are governors, those who are legislators take an oath to defend the constitution as they understand it. Their oath does not say they have to defend the court's interpretation.
HEMMER: And what they're saying, father, with all due respect, is that they're saying they're following the rule of law as they interpret it.
PAVONE: As the courts interpret it. Are you saying as they interpret it?
HEMMER: As they, as state legislators, and what the governor has said publicly what he can and can't do based on state law. He has said that repeatedly now for two weeks.
PAVONE: Exactly, and I believe he's completely sincere. The problem we have to face is that sometimes the courts cross the line. They cross the line of human decency. We have to be law-abiding citizens. The courts have their proper role. But when the court says you can starve a healthy person until that person dies and you can't even so much as give her a cup of water -- I was sitting next to her bed last night. There was a vase of flowers right next to me. The flowers were in water, the flowers being cared for better than Terri. I could have taken some of that water and put it in Terri's mouth. I would have been escorted out of the room by the police officer who was standing next to the bed.
And what I'm saying is...
HEMMER: Thank you. We're out of time. I appreciate your time.
PAVONE: Thank you. HEMMER: Certainly, thank you.
Here's Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, now to those new videotapes never before seen by public of Terri Schiavo in her hospice bed. Nine of 11 recordings from the summer of 2002 were released by the Florida state court clerk's office.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta live at the CNN Center from Atlanta now.
Good morning, Sanjay.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, we've looked at these tapes. Well, you and I have talked about these. You've talked to the doctors, and you and I both have discussed, I wonder if we're ever going to see these, if they'll ever be released. Well, now we are seeing them. What do you think?
PAVONE: Well, you know, several hours of tapes, first of all, lots of different interactions. As we watched some of these tapes, let me just say as a disclaimer, really we've been saying all along, you can't make any strong conclusions based on looking at tapes. I think it's important to say that. On the other hand, you can get a sort of behind-the-scenes look at what's happening with Terri as she's being examined by her doctors, as she's interacting with her mother and father.
Take a look there. First of all, you see Dr. Hemisfar (ph). That's one of the doctors that we've been talking about so much about. I'll tell you ahead of time...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you make that leg go straight?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: His conclusions were that she was not in a persistent vegetative state. Listen in:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you try moving the leg? (INAUDIBLE) now. See if you can make it go against me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: He's trying to see if her leg -- actually if she's going to obey a command here, showing that she's hearing him and following commands.
PHILLIPS: Does it look like she's obeying the commands, Sanjay? GUPTA: Well, you know, it is extremely hard to tell here. Let me just tell you a couple things you cannot tell, is that her leg is actually very spastic, meaning very stiff. And when he pushes her leg down like that, it's going to naturally come back into an up position. So when he pushes it down and then says lift your leg, it was kind of going to do that anyway, and that was what one of the other doctors pointed out to me, saying you've really got to be careful here when observing this sort of exam.
PHILLIPS: When we look at this, I mean, when you see these tapes and we see the videotape that we've been rolling on and on just of her with her mother, is there anything here that you see that's different, or do they pretty much look the same to you?
GUPTA: Yes, and again, it's really hard to draw conclusions looking at tapes. You're going to see Dr. Hemisfar here, and then another doctor, Dr. Cranford (ph), examining her, who believes she is in a persistent vegetative state.
What and I can tell you -- and that's some of what you're seeing her now, Dr. Cranford examining her.
PHILLIPS: Yes, talk about the sounds. What do you make of the sounds that she's making?
GUPTA: Yes, listen into this a little bit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Do it on the other side now. Pinch underneath here. I'm going to...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: What I can tell you is that observing several hours of these tapes now, she makes a lot of sounds. There's no question about it. We're trying to figure out, were the sounds different based on who was interacting with her, who was in the room. And that was much harder to discern. She's being pinched there. Sometimes that's done as part of a neurological exam to see how awake she is, and she does appear to have some sort of response to that there.
But again, two doctors conducting an exam that really doesn't look that much different, and arriving at very different conclusions here, Kyra, and that's some of what is at the heart of this, just a lack of agreement, if you will, among the neurologists about what her state is -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: You sort of wonder what the other two tapes look like that haven't been released.
GUPTA: That's right, and I'm not sure why they're not being released.
You know, but one thing will tell you, is that a lot of neurologists talk about this islands of awareness sort of within the brain, even in people who are in persistent vegetative state. They may have intermittent islands where they're sort of a little bit more aware or awake than at other times, but that's difficult to tell. And again, these two doctors examining her, similar exams, arriving at very different conclusions -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Thanks, Sanjay.
GUPTA: Thank you.
HEMMER: You mentioned these two other tapes. We're going to talk to Jeff Toobin a bit later this hour and try to find our why they have not been released, or if there's anything significant on them that we can glean. That's one of our topics still to come.
Here also, the U.S. Supreme Court closing the door on Terri's family. Do they have any legal options left? We'll put that question to Jeff as well this hour.
PHILLIPS: Also, Jessica Lunsford's murder sheds light on a broken-down system, thousands of sex offenders vanishing without a trace. Victims advocate Mark Klaas tells us what parents can do to help.
HEMMER: Also the latest in Minnesota. That investigation continues, and it could be widening in that school shooting spree. Authorities want to know were more attacks being planned. Back in a moment here, on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Were the shootings at the Red Lake Reservation in Minnesota part of a wider plot? Sixteen-year-old Louis Jourdain has been arrested already, and reports have the FBI interviewing more friends of Jeff Weise, the suspected shooter, and searching their computers for evidence of other killings that may have been in the works.
Judy Roy is the tribal secretary of the Red Lake band of Chippewa Indians, and she is my guest now in Red Lake, Minnesota.
I want to get a better definition of this group of kids at that school known as the goths, or The Darkers. Who were these kids?
JUDY ROY, TRIBAL SECY.: I can't say that I know that for sure. I do know that when the shootings first took place, it's hard to imagine that there are loners who are really, absolutely alone, and everyone has a small circle of friends. And we want this pursued.
HEMMER: Miss Roy, do you know how many may have been in this group?
ROY: No, I have no idea.
HEMMER: Yes, could you identify them, or were you ever given reason to be suspicious about them? ROY: No, sir. I've never really thought it unusual when young people dress differently or express themselves in any way in their appearance. So this has changed our perception and how we will think of young people who stand out in the future.
HEMMER: What do you mean by that, Miss Roy?
ROY: Well, when we hear now that they spike their hair or had different colored hair, wore black all the time, I wouldn't have thought that was a danger signal in the past. But now I may have a different perception of that.
HEMMER: As you look back now, and certainly hindsight can be perfect at times, as you look back, is there anything that triggers in your mind as to reasons why you should have been suspicious, or maybe others in the school should have been, or possibly giving these kids more attention?
ROY: No, I'm sorry to say I can't. And if I had, if others had, I'm sure we would have done something about it. I think we have a high degree of tolerance for how our young people express themselves. And as I said, that has changed now. And we will look at it differently in the future.
HEMMER: There have been rumors that Floyd Jourdain might resign with his son now being under suspicion and arrested. Is that a possibility?
ROY: I have heard that. We are urging him not to do anything drastic right now, and to let things take their course.
HEMMER: There has been a string of funerals in your town. I understand the last one is this weekend on Saturday.
ROY: That's right.
HEMMER: Can you give us a sense of how people are doing there?
ROY: I think we all have kind of a protective numbness that is getting us through these days. And people are gradual little starting to feel the effects and to start expressing it. And so we've gone to great lengths to provide counseling and any kind of assistance we can, as people come to grips with this awful reality.
HEMMER: Good luck to you.
ROY: Thank you very much.
HEMMER: And everyone else out there. Judy Roy in Red Lake -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: A fire chief is being called a hero for saving a woman from a burning car near Buffalo, New York. The woman was conscious, but trapped after her car was hit by a truck on Tuesday. As firefighters arrived, people were dousing the car with fire extinguishers. When the flames started coming through the fire wall, well, fire chief Lyle Lewis (ph) broke the driver's side window and pulled the woman free. Seconds later, the car burst into flames. Well, Chief Lewis will join us in the next hour to talk about the daring rescue.
Well, the nation's airlines are flying higher than usual this morning. Andy tells us what's being done suddenly. This sunny outlook straight ahead. He's "Minding Your Business," next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Welcome back, everyone. Stocks soaring on Wednesday, even for the airlines, too. More of the same today? Maybe. This guy knows. Andy Serwer, "Minding Your Business."
Good morning to you.
ANDY SERWER, "MINDING YOUR "BUSINESS": Good morning to you.
Maybe a little bit of wishful thinking when you think the rally is going to continue. But yesterday was a great day for investors. Stocks moving across the board, biggest one-day gains in months. You have to go back to December to see gains like that. Rebounding from days of trading losses. We've talked about that, falling oil prices, and also money managers don't like to hold cash at the end of a quarter. Today is the last day of the first quarter.
As one group surprisingly moving to the upside, as you mentioned, Bill, airline stocks. A Merrill Lynch analyst coming out and saying American Airlines and Frontier are going to big winners in the reshuffling in this really difficult industry. Those two stocks move up briskly, as did other airline stocks. You can see here American up almost 10 percent. Last fall it was $6. Now it's $11. This is a difficult group to trade, as they say on Wall Street. Continental ratified a new contract.
For instance, take this American Airlines deal here. The analyst said, well, it's not going to lose $7.50 this year. It's only going to lose $4.95. That's about $800 million. So still a lot of red ink.
HEMMER: When was the last time these airlines saw movements like that in one day of trading.
SERWER: Back last fall; when they hit their lows, they bounced back up.
HEMMER: Cyclical, they say.
SERWER: Difficult, they say.
HEMMER: Yes, That too.
Thanks.
PHILLIPS: This is the best part of the show right here. I mean, Andy, you know I love you, but I'm so excited to introduce Jack Cafferty.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Aren't you nice?
PHILLIPS: You really do have a soft side. None of the things are true that I heard.
SERWER: Oh, for now.
CAFFERTY: That's it. My day is made. It doesn't matter, it can go all to hell from here, and I'm a happy guy.
PHILLIPS: And you really are a handsome guy.
CAFFERTY: Aren't you sweet?
SERWER: Oh, wow. The check's in the mail.
(CROSSTALK)
CAFFERTY: I'm a fan of yours. You add a lot of class to this organization, and I enjoy your work very much. And it's nice to have you here on the sofa with the rest of us.
PHILLIPS: It's a pleasure. I know, look at this, I'm the outcast here. Three handsome men, I'm good to go.
SERWER: All right.
CAFFERTY: On to business, the United States Supreme Court -- I'm blushing. The United States Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that people 40 and over can sue for age discrimination, even if employers never intended any bias. The old law covered only intentional bias. The new law means that there is expanded job protection now for half of the nation's workforce. That's about 73 million of us. I'm in that older group.
The court said employers can still defend their practices on reasonable factors, such as cost cutting. The ruling comes as many companies face financial pressure to reduce pensions and health benefits. So the question is this, this morning, do employers discriminate against older workers? AM@cnn.com.
HEMMER: How did they get the age 40 in there?
SERWER: I don't like that.
HEMMER: Yes, how did they determine...
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: Actually, I like the ruling. There's hope for all of us now. How did they come up with 40?
CAFFERTY: You ask me? I have no idea.
PHILLIPS: You know, I have a friend actually in his 50s, and he's having a hard time getting a pilot's job, because they actually told him, we need younger guys, because at a certain age, you can't fly anymore.
It's true. The money is a big switch.
CAFFERTY: It applies in the television business, too.
SERWER: We've noticed that.
CAFFERTY: Are you listening, Atlanta?
PHILLIPS: Jack, I thought you just got a big raise? .
CAFFERTY: No, not yet.
PHILLIPS: You will now.
SERWER: He's working on it though, can't you tell?
CAFFERTY: It very much applies in the television business.
PHILLIPS: What is it, the older the violin, the sweeter the tune.
CAFFERTY: Yes, that's good. I like you a lot. Soledad never says these things to me. All I get from her is the back of her hand.
HEMMER: Are you still blushing? Yes, he is.
CAFFERTY: Can we keep her?
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
Good to have you, Kyra.
Let's get a break here in a moment. Terri Schiavo's family is running out of time and running out of options today. Jeff Toobin stops in. The legal choices now for the family. We'll talk about that as we continue, right after this on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired March 31, 2005 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Never before seen videotape of Terri Schiavo.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
OK. All right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: There are major developments again this morning. New tapes opening a new window into her condition.
At the hospice, meanwhile, some anxious moments again. Family members turned away from seeing her after another abrupt Supreme Court ruling in the late-night hours.
Still, though, in Florida, passions are running high.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is happening here is a monumental disaster for our nation and for civilization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: An epic legal battle. But has that now come to an end, on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING, with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
Good morning, everyone. Good to have you along with us today, 7:00 in New York. I'm Bill Hemmer.
Soledad on vacation this week.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kyra Phillips. Good morning. Great to be with you.
HEMMER: It's great to have you here in New York. We got a three-hour ride here, OK?
PHILLIPS: It'll be easy.
HEMMER: Good to have you, Kyra.
There is a lot to cover this morning in the Terri Schiavo case. These new videotapes of Schiavo in her bed, in that hospice, a part of our coverage today. We had seen parts of these tapes in the past, but not all of them. They were shot in the summer of 2002, July of that year, and later used in a court hearing to determine Schiavo's condition. We'll talk to Sanjay in a moment and tray and gauge as best we can her condition on these videotapes. We'll also talk this morning with Father Frank Pavone. He's one of the Schindler family supporters. He was with Terri on Wednesday. We'll talk to him about what he saw.
But first let's go to Florida right now, check in again with Bob Franken outside the hospice in Pinellas Park.
And, Bob, 14 days now since that feeding tube was taken out. What are you hearing about her condition?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What I'm hearing is that this is a woman who is close to dying, a woman who the family still says is fighting for her life. But to be perfectly honest about it, those who have seen her most recently say that as anybody would expect, she is losing that fight. Her breathing is shallow. Her skin does not have the color that it had, and that it is just a very matter of just a very brief time. Perhaps past the time that any legal action would save her even if it was initiated. And by all accounts, the legal remedies have just about been exhausted. The biggest evidence of that, the action by the Supreme Court overnight to take no action, the sixth time that the U.S. Supreme Court, the highest court in the country, has refused to get involved in what most feel is a state matter when it comes to the legal system.
Now feelings here are running high. So high, as a matter of fact, that the police have instituted new security measures. When one drives into the street that leads to this hospice, you can expect to have your car searched. This is something that began after there were a couple of bomb threats phoned into the hospice, just the latest in a series of threats that have been made in connection with this case. There are very strong feelings, as I mentioned before, but inside the hospice where there is peace, Terri Schiavo is dying -- Bill.
HEMMER: Bob, tell me about the family. They came to visit. What happened?
FRANKEN: They have been turned away repeatedly. They are making the assumption that Michael Schiavo, who is Terri Schiavo's husband, and in effect, their arch adversary in this matter, has been inside the hospice. He has insisted as the guardian he has the right to set the rules here. He has insisted that he does not want the awkward moment where they are all in the same room, so family members have been frustrated throughout the night. They have not been able to make their visits.
HEMMER: Bob Franken in Pinellas Park. Bob, we will be with you throughout the morning there. And even though it's been nearly two weeks since Terri Schiavo has had food or water, her parents and her supporters continue to visit her, and when they come out, they continue to say that she looks good and remains alert.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB SCHINDLER, TERRI SCHIAVO'S FATHER: Terri is still with us. She's -- under the circumstances, she looks darn good, surprisingly good.
JUDY BADER, SCHIAVO FAMILY FRIEND: Terri is very much awake. She's still trying to track people in the room with her eyes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: Father Frank Pavone is the national director of Priests For Live. He's my guest now in Pinellas Park.
And, father, good morning to you.
You were with Terri yesterday? And you...
FATHER FRANK PAVONE, SCHINDLER FAMILY SUPPORTER: Yes, I was.
HEMMER: How did she look to you, father?
PAVONE: I visited her now four times and the two times I visited her before the feeding tube was removed, she was very alert, responsive, looked very good. Last night was a very different story. Her breathe shallow and rapid. Her eyes not quite able to focus as they were before. And yet, nevertheless, breathing on her own and still not unresponsive. It would be a mistake to characterize her as dying peacefully. I would use the word distress as more accurate.
HEMMER: What do you mean unresponsive? You're indicating there that she is responding in some way. How?
PAVONE: Yes, indeed. When I was praying with her extensively last night, her eyes although they are oscillating back and forth fairly rapidly, would tend to move in my direction. I don't think -- I know we're not dealing with someone here who is just lying down still with her eyes closed. She is very, very much still with us, as was already said by her dad.
HEMMER: It has been, father, 14 days now.
PAVONE: Yes.
HEMMER: Has her parents talked to you about accepting their daughter's death?
PAVONE: They are accepting the reality of what's going on here. Of course, they've been living with this for a very long time. And what is more difficult for them to accept is the philosophy behind those who want her to die, this idea some lives are not worth living. That really the thing that makes them even more sad than the eventual loss of their daughter.
HEMMER: What explains the fact she is still holding on? PAVONE: She does not have any terminal illness, and that's important for people to understand. She is, other than her disability caused by a brain injury, she's a healthy woman, and that's what makes this so tragic. We're starving a healthy woman. And so, and this does not -- you know, morally speaking, this does not fall into the category of when do we cease treating a dying person. Certainly there are such things as useless treatments that are not necessary when they will no longer do any good. But while there is such a thing as a useless treatment, there's no such thing as a useless life, and this is a person who because of her health and because of her relative young age is holding on remarkably well.
HEMMER: Let me ask you somewhat of an awkward question here. You have very critical of the governor and very critical of the state legislature in Tallahassee. Are you and others looking for someone to blame at this point for Terri Schiavo's condition?
PAVONE: No. And let me point out, I sincerely appreciate everything that the governor and the state legislature in Florida have done. I believe they are very sincere in their efforts in trying to help Terri, and it is not they particularly that I want to be critical of. It is an overall phenomenon across our country, namely that the executive and the legislative branches keep bowing to the judiciary. The courts don't have the final word. The way our Constitution is set up, those who are governors, those who are legislators take an oath to defend the constitution as they understand it. Their oath does not say they have to defend the court's interpretation.
HEMMER: And what they're saying, father, with all due respect, is that they're saying they're following the rule of law as they interpret it.
PAVONE: As the courts interpret it. Are you saying as they interpret it?
HEMMER: As they, as state legislators, and what the governor has said publicly what he can and can't do based on state law. He has said that repeatedly now for two weeks.
PAVONE: Exactly, and I believe he's completely sincere. The problem we have to face is that sometimes the courts cross the line. They cross the line of human decency. We have to be law-abiding citizens. The courts have their proper role. But when the court says you can starve a healthy person until that person dies and you can't even so much as give her a cup of water -- I was sitting next to her bed last night. There was a vase of flowers right next to me. The flowers were in water, the flowers being cared for better than Terri. I could have taken some of that water and put it in Terri's mouth. I would have been escorted out of the room by the police officer who was standing next to the bed.
And what I'm saying is...
HEMMER: Thank you. We're out of time. I appreciate your time.
PAVONE: Thank you. HEMMER: Certainly, thank you.
Here's Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, now to those new videotapes never before seen by public of Terri Schiavo in her hospice bed. Nine of 11 recordings from the summer of 2002 were released by the Florida state court clerk's office.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta live at the CNN Center from Atlanta now.
Good morning, Sanjay.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Well, we've looked at these tapes. Well, you and I have talked about these. You've talked to the doctors, and you and I both have discussed, I wonder if we're ever going to see these, if they'll ever be released. Well, now we are seeing them. What do you think?
PAVONE: Well, you know, several hours of tapes, first of all, lots of different interactions. As we watched some of these tapes, let me just say as a disclaimer, really we've been saying all along, you can't make any strong conclusions based on looking at tapes. I think it's important to say that. On the other hand, you can get a sort of behind-the-scenes look at what's happening with Terri as she's being examined by her doctors, as she's interacting with her mother and father.
Take a look there. First of all, you see Dr. Hemisfar (ph). That's one of the doctors that we've been talking about so much about. I'll tell you ahead of time...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you make that leg go straight?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: His conclusions were that she was not in a persistent vegetative state. Listen in:
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you try moving the leg? (INAUDIBLE) now. See if you can make it go against me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: He's trying to see if her leg -- actually if she's going to obey a command here, showing that she's hearing him and following commands.
PHILLIPS: Does it look like she's obeying the commands, Sanjay? GUPTA: Well, you know, it is extremely hard to tell here. Let me just tell you a couple things you cannot tell, is that her leg is actually very spastic, meaning very stiff. And when he pushes her leg down like that, it's going to naturally come back into an up position. So when he pushes it down and then says lift your leg, it was kind of going to do that anyway, and that was what one of the other doctors pointed out to me, saying you've really got to be careful here when observing this sort of exam.
PHILLIPS: When we look at this, I mean, when you see these tapes and we see the videotape that we've been rolling on and on just of her with her mother, is there anything here that you see that's different, or do they pretty much look the same to you?
GUPTA: Yes, and again, it's really hard to draw conclusions looking at tapes. You're going to see Dr. Hemisfar here, and then another doctor, Dr. Cranford (ph), examining her, who believes she is in a persistent vegetative state.
What and I can tell you -- and that's some of what you're seeing her now, Dr. Cranford examining her.
PHILLIPS: Yes, talk about the sounds. What do you make of the sounds that she's making?
GUPTA: Yes, listen into this a little bit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Do it on the other side now. Pinch underneath here. I'm going to...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUPTA: What I can tell you is that observing several hours of these tapes now, she makes a lot of sounds. There's no question about it. We're trying to figure out, were the sounds different based on who was interacting with her, who was in the room. And that was much harder to discern. She's being pinched there. Sometimes that's done as part of a neurological exam to see how awake she is, and she does appear to have some sort of response to that there.
But again, two doctors conducting an exam that really doesn't look that much different, and arriving at very different conclusions here, Kyra, and that's some of what is at the heart of this, just a lack of agreement, if you will, among the neurologists about what her state is -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: You sort of wonder what the other two tapes look like that haven't been released.
GUPTA: That's right, and I'm not sure why they're not being released.
You know, but one thing will tell you, is that a lot of neurologists talk about this islands of awareness sort of within the brain, even in people who are in persistent vegetative state. They may have intermittent islands where they're sort of a little bit more aware or awake than at other times, but that's difficult to tell. And again, these two doctors examining her, similar exams, arriving at very different conclusions -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Thanks, Sanjay.
GUPTA: Thank you.
HEMMER: You mentioned these two other tapes. We're going to talk to Jeff Toobin a bit later this hour and try to find our why they have not been released, or if there's anything significant on them that we can glean. That's one of our topics still to come.
Here also, the U.S. Supreme Court closing the door on Terri's family. Do they have any legal options left? We'll put that question to Jeff as well this hour.
PHILLIPS: Also, Jessica Lunsford's murder sheds light on a broken-down system, thousands of sex offenders vanishing without a trace. Victims advocate Mark Klaas tells us what parents can do to help.
HEMMER: Also the latest in Minnesota. That investigation continues, and it could be widening in that school shooting spree. Authorities want to know were more attacks being planned. Back in a moment here, on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Were the shootings at the Red Lake Reservation in Minnesota part of a wider plot? Sixteen-year-old Louis Jourdain has been arrested already, and reports have the FBI interviewing more friends of Jeff Weise, the suspected shooter, and searching their computers for evidence of other killings that may have been in the works.
Judy Roy is the tribal secretary of the Red Lake band of Chippewa Indians, and she is my guest now in Red Lake, Minnesota.
I want to get a better definition of this group of kids at that school known as the goths, or The Darkers. Who were these kids?
JUDY ROY, TRIBAL SECY.: I can't say that I know that for sure. I do know that when the shootings first took place, it's hard to imagine that there are loners who are really, absolutely alone, and everyone has a small circle of friends. And we want this pursued.
HEMMER: Miss Roy, do you know how many may have been in this group?
ROY: No, I have no idea.
HEMMER: Yes, could you identify them, or were you ever given reason to be suspicious about them? ROY: No, sir. I've never really thought it unusual when young people dress differently or express themselves in any way in their appearance. So this has changed our perception and how we will think of young people who stand out in the future.
HEMMER: What do you mean by that, Miss Roy?
ROY: Well, when we hear now that they spike their hair or had different colored hair, wore black all the time, I wouldn't have thought that was a danger signal in the past. But now I may have a different perception of that.
HEMMER: As you look back now, and certainly hindsight can be perfect at times, as you look back, is there anything that triggers in your mind as to reasons why you should have been suspicious, or maybe others in the school should have been, or possibly giving these kids more attention?
ROY: No, I'm sorry to say I can't. And if I had, if others had, I'm sure we would have done something about it. I think we have a high degree of tolerance for how our young people express themselves. And as I said, that has changed now. And we will look at it differently in the future.
HEMMER: There have been rumors that Floyd Jourdain might resign with his son now being under suspicion and arrested. Is that a possibility?
ROY: I have heard that. We are urging him not to do anything drastic right now, and to let things take their course.
HEMMER: There has been a string of funerals in your town. I understand the last one is this weekend on Saturday.
ROY: That's right.
HEMMER: Can you give us a sense of how people are doing there?
ROY: I think we all have kind of a protective numbness that is getting us through these days. And people are gradual little starting to feel the effects and to start expressing it. And so we've gone to great lengths to provide counseling and any kind of assistance we can, as people come to grips with this awful reality.
HEMMER: Good luck to you.
ROY: Thank you very much.
HEMMER: And everyone else out there. Judy Roy in Red Lake -- Kyra.
PHILLIPS: A fire chief is being called a hero for saving a woman from a burning car near Buffalo, New York. The woman was conscious, but trapped after her car was hit by a truck on Tuesday. As firefighters arrived, people were dousing the car with fire extinguishers. When the flames started coming through the fire wall, well, fire chief Lyle Lewis (ph) broke the driver's side window and pulled the woman free. Seconds later, the car burst into flames. Well, Chief Lewis will join us in the next hour to talk about the daring rescue.
Well, the nation's airlines are flying higher than usual this morning. Andy tells us what's being done suddenly. This sunny outlook straight ahead. He's "Minding Your Business," next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Welcome back, everyone. Stocks soaring on Wednesday, even for the airlines, too. More of the same today? Maybe. This guy knows. Andy Serwer, "Minding Your Business."
Good morning to you.
ANDY SERWER, "MINDING YOUR "BUSINESS": Good morning to you.
Maybe a little bit of wishful thinking when you think the rally is going to continue. But yesterday was a great day for investors. Stocks moving across the board, biggest one-day gains in months. You have to go back to December to see gains like that. Rebounding from days of trading losses. We've talked about that, falling oil prices, and also money managers don't like to hold cash at the end of a quarter. Today is the last day of the first quarter.
As one group surprisingly moving to the upside, as you mentioned, Bill, airline stocks. A Merrill Lynch analyst coming out and saying American Airlines and Frontier are going to big winners in the reshuffling in this really difficult industry. Those two stocks move up briskly, as did other airline stocks. You can see here American up almost 10 percent. Last fall it was $6. Now it's $11. This is a difficult group to trade, as they say on Wall Street. Continental ratified a new contract.
For instance, take this American Airlines deal here. The analyst said, well, it's not going to lose $7.50 this year. It's only going to lose $4.95. That's about $800 million. So still a lot of red ink.
HEMMER: When was the last time these airlines saw movements like that in one day of trading.
SERWER: Back last fall; when they hit their lows, they bounced back up.
HEMMER: Cyclical, they say.
SERWER: Difficult, they say.
HEMMER: Yes, That too.
Thanks.
PHILLIPS: This is the best part of the show right here. I mean, Andy, you know I love you, but I'm so excited to introduce Jack Cafferty.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Aren't you nice?
PHILLIPS: You really do have a soft side. None of the things are true that I heard.
SERWER: Oh, for now.
CAFFERTY: That's it. My day is made. It doesn't matter, it can go all to hell from here, and I'm a happy guy.
PHILLIPS: And you really are a handsome guy.
CAFFERTY: Aren't you sweet?
SERWER: Oh, wow. The check's in the mail.
(CROSSTALK)
CAFFERTY: I'm a fan of yours. You add a lot of class to this organization, and I enjoy your work very much. And it's nice to have you here on the sofa with the rest of us.
PHILLIPS: It's a pleasure. I know, look at this, I'm the outcast here. Three handsome men, I'm good to go.
SERWER: All right.
CAFFERTY: On to business, the United States Supreme Court -- I'm blushing. The United States Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that people 40 and over can sue for age discrimination, even if employers never intended any bias. The old law covered only intentional bias. The new law means that there is expanded job protection now for half of the nation's workforce. That's about 73 million of us. I'm in that older group.
The court said employers can still defend their practices on reasonable factors, such as cost cutting. The ruling comes as many companies face financial pressure to reduce pensions and health benefits. So the question is this, this morning, do employers discriminate against older workers? AM@cnn.com.
HEMMER: How did they get the age 40 in there?
SERWER: I don't like that.
HEMMER: Yes, how did they determine...
(CROSSTALK)
HEMMER: Actually, I like the ruling. There's hope for all of us now. How did they come up with 40?
CAFFERTY: You ask me? I have no idea.
PHILLIPS: You know, I have a friend actually in his 50s, and he's having a hard time getting a pilot's job, because they actually told him, we need younger guys, because at a certain age, you can't fly anymore.
It's true. The money is a big switch.
CAFFERTY: It applies in the television business, too.
SERWER: We've noticed that.
CAFFERTY: Are you listening, Atlanta?
PHILLIPS: Jack, I thought you just got a big raise? .
CAFFERTY: No, not yet.
PHILLIPS: You will now.
SERWER: He's working on it though, can't you tell?
CAFFERTY: It very much applies in the television business.
PHILLIPS: What is it, the older the violin, the sweeter the tune.
CAFFERTY: Yes, that's good. I like you a lot. Soledad never says these things to me. All I get from her is the back of her hand.
HEMMER: Are you still blushing? Yes, he is.
CAFFERTY: Can we keep her?
HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.
Good to have you, Kyra.
Let's get a break here in a moment. Terri Schiavo's family is running out of time and running out of options today. Jeff Toobin stops in. The legal choices now for the family. We'll talk about that as we continue, right after this on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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