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Nancy Grace

Terri Schiavo Dies

Aired March 31, 2005 - 20:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: After weeks of angry protests, marches, police arrests, and Congress calling emergency sessions, the beautiful young woman at the center of all the controversy, Terri Schiavo, has passed away. Her parents, brother and sister all kicked out during Schiavo`s final moments on Earth. Instead, her husband, Michael Schiavo -- the man responsible for her slow death by starvation -- was there instead. Now, as her family mourns, he is planning her autopsy.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Terri Schiavo hopefully is resting in peace tonight finally. But again tonight, the angerness and the bitterness lives on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRIAR FRANK PAVONE, SPIRITUAL ADVISOR TO THE SCHINDLERS: We were told that we had to leave the room because there would be an assessment of her condition and then a visitation by Michael. Bobby Schindler, her brother said, "We want to be in the room when she dies." Michael Schiavo said, "No, you cannot."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The final battle? Schiavo`s funeral. Her husband, Michael, now moved on to essentially an all-new wife and children, wants Terri cremated. Her parents want her buried.

Tonight, in Washington, the director of the Christian Defense Coalition Reverend Patrick Mahoney; and from Americans United for Separation, Reverend Barry Lynn; in Crawford, Georgia, chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice, Jay Sekulow; in Philadelphia, from the University of Pennsylvania, Dr. Art Caplan; in Minneapolis, chief medical witness on behalf of Michael Schiavo, Dr. Ronald Cranford; in Washington, national advocate for Compassion and Choices, Robert Raben; in New York, psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Deltito.

Joining us shortly, we`ll have from Pinellas Park Tim Padgett with Time magazine. And let me also advise you that, throughout this evening`s edition of NANCY GRACE, we will be taking you live to the Vatican for updates on the health of the Pope.

Very quickly, let me go to Art Caplan. Art, I know that you are pro- Michael Schiavo, but what I don`t understand is why the family was kept away from her deathbed. I would want my mother and father there along with me when I died.

DR. ART CAPLAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Well, I do favor the decision-making that Michael made on behalf of his wife. I think he basically heard her last, heard her wishes last, so he was the person who said, "Look, I know what she said last." But this bitter, horrible, divisive fight right to the end, there was never going to be a truce. They were never going to try and go for any kind of reconciliation.

And I have to tell you, I think it`s sad. I think it`s just unfortunate that this all had to happen, played out on a national stage, bitter to the end. There`s no way you can endorse that.

GRACE: Reverend Patrick Mahoney, your thoughts about the Schindlers being kept away from their daughter`s deathbed?

REV. PATRICK MAHONEY, DIR. CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: Well, Nancy, it`s tragic. I think when you saw the Schindlers make their comments after Terri had passed away -- I have grown to know and love these people. They talked about forgiveness. They talked about healing. They quoted from the Gospel.

I think the fact that Michael Schiavo -- with the mom and dad, with Bobby and Suzanne there, wanting to be there and not allowing them -- if you`ll remember, Bobby said, "Look, bring a police officer in here. Let us just be together." Nancy, I think that speaks volumes about what kind of person Michael Schiavo is. And I don`t think I`ll comment any further on that. I think the American public can make their own assessment just on that one episode.

GRACE: To Jay Sekulow -- he`s the chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice -- were Terri Schiavo`s rights violated?

I think I`ve got Jay Sekulow with me.

JAY SEKULOW, AMERICAN CENTER FOR LAW AND JUSTICE: Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me OK?

GRACE: Yes. Were Terri Schiavo`s right violated in any way?

SEKULOW: I think they were. I think that -- look, the fact of the matter is that you had a husband that had a common law wife, basically, and a family with two children. And he was supposed to be the guardian. He was supposed to have the primary interest of the basically his wife at stake here.

And how could he possibly be an independent guardian looking out for her best interests when he already had another family? And I think that is where the due process violation took place here. And that`s the real tragedy of this case. And if there`s anything that we learned from this, when you have a situation like that, the best thing to do is not have that person be the guardian while the spouse is laying in a hospital room.

GRACE: Jay, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUZANNE VITADAMO, TERRI SCHIAVO`S SISTER: Please continue to pray that God gives grace to our family as we go through this very difficult time. We know that many of you never had the privilege to personally know our wonderful sister, Terri, but we assure you that you can be proud of this remarkable woman who has captured the attention of the world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terri, your life and legacy will continue to live on as the nation is now awakened to the plight of thousands of voiceless people with disabilities that were previously unnoticed. Your family intends to stand up for the other Terri`s around this nation, and we will do all that we can to change the law so others won`t face the same fate that has befallen you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Dr. Joseph Deltito is with us. Doctor, as well as psychiatrist, Dr. Deltito, it seems to get worse and worse the more we hear. First, we know that -- as this woman was not on a ventilator. She was basically starved to death. Her parents were kept away from her death bed.

DR. JOSEPH DELTITO, NEW YORK MEDICAL COLLEGE: Yes. I think most people don`t consider life support being fed when they hear that term. Because everything can be life support. I had a veal cutlet sandwich this afternoon. That`s life support, or antibiotics or whatever.

It`s a very, very sad case. I think there are people who had all sorts of conflicts of interest, their own agenda who had crucial roles in this scenario. And it`s going to bear a lot of examination.

GRACE: I want to go now to Washington Post reporter Manuel Roig- Franzia. Manuel, thank you for being with us. Bring us up-to-date. What happened today?

MANUEL ROIG-FRANZIA, WASHINGTON POST: Today was the day that everyone here was waiting for, that everyone here was dreading. It came early this morning, the news that Terri Schiavo had died.

And then things got very interesting, because things got very accusational, very confrontational. You had the spiritual adviser to the Schindlers saying that Michael Schiavo had done something very, very wrong by keeping Bobby Schindler and his sister out of the hospice room right before Terri Schiavo died. And then, not long afterwards, you had George Felos, the attorney for Michael Schiavo, rebutting that.

GRACE: Back to the parents, very quickly, Manuel, I know they were kept away. Could you tell me -- did they at least get to see her body before it was taken away?

ROIG-FRANZIA: Nancy, my understanding is not that they were kept away. According to what we heard here today, they were not at the facility at the time that Terri Schiavo died. Later, they came and were allowed to see her body and be with her for a time, according to the attorneys who came out and spoke.

It was Bobby Schindler, the brother...

GRACE: And sister.

ROIG-FRANZIA: ... and Suzanne -- yes -- who had that confrontation with the police right before Terri died, 15 minutes before she died. And that led to them being kept out of the room at the moment.

GRACE: Manuel, where is the autopsy going to be held?

ROIG-FRANZIA: The autopsy is being performed by the chief medal examiner here in Pinellas County. It`s going to be performed immediately. There are going to be results very shortly, according to George Felos, on the macro-examination, which means the more preliminary eyeballing of the body.

Other tests, much more significant tests that require labs and chemistry, will be conducted. And those reports will take a little bit more time. And you know, as you know, this autopsy is so important to Michael Schiavo, because he wants the autopsy to prove that his wife was as brain damaged as his doctors say she was.

GRACE: So, basically, Dr. Ronald Cranford, you were the chief medical witness for her husband, Michael Schiavo, he`s having her body, her brain, her organs, sliced up so he can say, "I was right"?

DR. RONALD CRANFORD, CHIEF MEDICAL WITNESS ON BEHALF OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO: Well, I think so, because there`s some question about what happened. And I think the autopsy will show undeniably that she had severe hypoxia (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that is damage to the brain, secondary to the cardiac arrest she had in 1990, and that she was -- condition was irreversible.

So I think he was forced to have an autopsy just to clarify for everyone that the autopsy will show exactly what we have been saying all along, that she is irreversibly brain damaged.

GRACE: Did I hear you say he`s being forced to have an autopsy?

CRANFORD: I think so. I think that otherwise he might not have. But I think to clarify to show that what we have said all along is true, that she has got severe brain damage. I think they are going to do it.

And by the way, this isn`t starvation. That`s a jingle. She didn`t starve to death. She was dehydrated to death. It occurs every day, Nancy, day after day. Pardon?

GRACE: So she thirsted to death? So she thirsted to death? Dehydrate, that means no water, right?

CRANFORD: No water. And they die of dehydration in 10 to 14 days just like...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, so, Doctor, is that any less suffering, to die of thirst as to die of hunger?

CRANFORD: Well, yes, because they`re totally different. You don`t have starvation in this situation. She was unconscious. This is the most humane, caring, dignified, loving way to die for someone in a vegetative state, to remove the feeding tube. We do it all the time, Nancy, around the country. Hundreds or thousands of doctors have done this on many occasions. This is nothing new. And it`s not starvation.

GRACE: Doctor, doctor, was she given any food or nutrients of any type for the last two weeks?

CRANFORD: Well, it wouldn`t make any sense to give her any because she`s unconscious.

GRACE: So the answer would be no? Well, I know if I wasn`t given anything to eat for two weeks, I would feel like I was starving. I know you are calling it dehydration. I understand that. But no food, no water, to me, is starving. But I`m going to let you clarify it with me when we get back. We have got to go to break. With me, Dr. Ronald Cranford.

CRANFORD: Sure.

GRACE: Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. JESSE JACKSON, SCHINDLER FAMILY SUPPORTER: I`m saddened by her passing. And I`m pained by -- at least it was unnecessary. But in the end, without food and water for 14 days, she was starved and dehydrated to death. So to me it was merciless rather than merciful.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Today, millions of Americans are saddened by the death of Terri Schiavo. Laura and I extend our condolences to Terri Schiavo`s families. I appreciate the example of grace and dignity they have displayed at a difficult time. I urge all those who honor Terri Schiavo to continue to work to build a culture of life, where all Americans are welcomed, and valued, and protected, especially those who live at the mercy of others.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Thank you for being with us tonight.

As I promised you earlier, we are bringing you repeated updates on the health of the Pope. Let`s go now to Vatican City. Delia Gallagher, CNN Vatican analyst, is with us.

Thank you, Delia, for being with us. What can you tell us tonight?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, I think the important piece of information just to come out from the Pope`s spokesman, Navarro- Valls, is that the Pope is responding well to treatment.

Earlier this evening, we heard that he was suffering from a high fever due to a urinary tract infection. However, it seems that, with the antibiotics that the doctors have given him, the Pope seems to be responding well. This is all we have at the moment.

It is late into the night here. And so, unless the condition worsens considerably, we probably will not have an official update until tomorrow - - Nancy?

GRACE: Delia, could you tell me, is the Pope using a feeding tube?

GALLAGHER: Well, this is a term which means tube through the nose, so, yes, he is being fed through a tube which is placed in his nose and goes into his stomach, obviously fed liquids for nutritional purposes. The Pope cannot swallow very easily. He has to have a tube in his throat due to the tracheotomy. So this was something which they put in place yesterday. And so the Pope is being nourished by a tube, yes.

GRACE: Delia, thanks for being with us.

With us, Delia Gallagher. She is a CNN Vatican analyst there at the Vatican City.

Very quickly to Reverend Patrick Mahoney. Reverend, we know that Terri Schiavo is a Catholic. Please explain to me the significance of a feeding tube and the decision to willfully die, to give up life to a Catholic.

MAHONEY: Well, I`m a Presbyterian minister, but I`ll be happy to address that.

GRACE: Yes.

MAHONEY: Number one, Nancy, Terri Schiavo was not terminally ill. Terri Schiavo was not dying. Terri Schiavo did not have a disease. So Terri Schiavo died from dehydration.

In other words, it was not the disease that killed her. And this is why this is so important to address, especially with those who are disabled. And I think people out there have to understand she was not in a coma. She was not a vegetable. She was not being kept on life support. Terri Schiavo was not sick. She was not terminal.

So the cause of her death was not from her disease, but it was from dehydration. And the doctor that you just had on -- I`ll make a mental note never to have him as my family physician -- to just cavalierly talk about this woman dying from dehydration as if he`s taking a stroll in the park is reprehensible. She dies a barbaric death, a painful death, a horrible death. And for him to somehow say, "Well, this happens all the time. It`s a humane way to go," I would simply have to disagree with that.

GRACE: Dr. Cranford, response?

CRANFORD: (OFF-MIKE) twenty-five to fifty times in my lifetime. It`s very common to withdraw a feeding tube. I`ve done it in the most humane circumstances. The U.S. Supreme Court agrees that a feeding tube is a medical treatment. He`s just denying the reality of the last 20 years, 20, 25 state Supreme Court decisions saying a feeding tube`s medical treatment. It happens all the time, hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds of doctors have discontinued feeding tubes...

(CROSSTALK)

MAHONEY: What happens on day seven? If you are still alive, what happens to your body on day seven? Could you explain that to the viewers?

CRANFORD: Well, at some point, your body shuts down. You have a lack of fluids. You do die of dehydration. Your cardiac output goes down...

MAHONEY: And what`s that like?

CRANFORD: ... due to inadequate blood.

MAHONEY: And what`s that like? Describe that for the viewers, Doctor, this "peaceful death."

CRANFORD: Well, I will describe it. Well, let me describe it, and I will do it for you.

MAHONEY: Sure.

CRANFORD: It`s peaceful because she`s unconscious. She`s not aware of what`s going on. And then the body shuts down. The hands get cold. The feet get cold.

MAHONEY: Unbelievable.

CRANFORD: She gets very dry, and she dies of lack of fluids and cardiac output. That`s what happens in a lot of these cases like this. I don`t know where you get the idea this isn`t common, because it`s very, very common, actually, extremely common.

GRACE: But Dr. Cranford, just because it`s common does not mean that it`s OK. And I think that`s why so many people are upset. We assume, because 50 percent of the doctors tell us that she`s unconscious, that she can`t feel it. But what about the other doctors who say she`s not brain dead, she`s not in a vegetative state?

You wouldn`t even do this to a dog, Dr. Ronald Cranford, let it starve to death, let it go without food or water for two weeks.

CRANFORD: Oh, please, please, please, Nancy. Don`t use inflammatory language. There`s long evidentiary history hearing in the history of American law with Judge Greer. He agreed with the neurologist who said she was in a vegetative state. There`s not a shred of proof that she`s not in a vegetative state. And Judge Greer just didn`t believe the doctors who said she wasn`t in vegetation. You`ve heard of due process of law, I think, Nancy, haven`t you?

GRACE: Yes.

CRANFORD: We had due process of law here. And I think you know what that is, probably. That`s what we had here, due process of the law. The longest (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in the history...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And I know what dehydration is, too. And when you tell me that she didn`t starve to death because she was dehydrated. She didn`t get food or water for two weeks. I assume you know what that means. The woman laid there and starved to death. That`s what happened to her.

CRANFORD: How many times have you been -- how many times have you been to the bedside when this happened? I`ve been there 25 to 50 times.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Thank God, never, Doctor.

CRANFORD: ... they do die of dehydration.

GRACE: Thank God, never. And you know what? Her family wasn`t allowed to be there, either. Her brother and sister forced away. There was a confrontation. They couldn`t even be with her when she died.

CRANFORD: I agree with Art Caplan on that. That`s a very, very unfortunate situation when you have the parents against the spouse like that. That`s a very terrible aspect of this. I sympathize with the Schindlers. I don`t know how to resolve that issue. That`s a terrible issue. And that`s a separate issue from the standpoint of dehydration.

GRACE: Well, with that, Dr. Cranford, with that, I agree with you.

Stay with us, everyone. A quick break.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: This issue transcends politics, to be honest. And I think she will be -- her experience will heighten awareness of the importance of families dealing with end-of-life issues. And that is an incredible legacy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES DOBSON, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: I`m not angry at the president or the governor. I am angry at Judge Greer and the federal courts that did not accept the demand or the order that came down from the Congress that this case be reviewed. I think that`s an outrage. And I regret it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. As you know, Ms. Schiavo finally resting in peace.

Let me quickly go to Art Caplan. He is pro-Michael Schiavo. He`s the chairman of the Department of Medical Ethics at the University of Pennsylvania.

Welcome, sir. Do you think that there`s any hope of showing why, through autopsy, why Terri Schiavo collapsed in the first place? The Schindler family suspects that abuse, not bulimia, but abuse, physical abuse, may have caused this.

CAPLAN: Well, I don`t think we`re going to get the complete answer. And I`m not sure anybody would be satisfied at this point who doesn`t really believe the facts as they came out in the trial.

And Nancy, let me shift to something slightly different. But we were talking about starvation. We`re talking about dehydration. There`s no sugarcoating it. Death is tough. It`s tough on people who watch it. There`s no way around it. It`s a hard thing.

I asked 200 of my students today, if you were Terri Schiavo, would you want to be in that state, 17 years, either permanently vegetative or so damaged that you can`t really communicate at all. None said yes. What they did say was, "I want someone to follow my wishes. I want to be heard."

And there`s all kinds of disputes about whether or not, you know, the husband spoke for her or whether it was accurate, whether it was witnessed. We had a lot of trials in this. But I want to make the point that Americans, I think, want to control how they die, even if it means suffocating, bleeding, dehydrating.

There`s no pretty way to die. But I think people sometimes say, "Don`t keep me in a state that`s unacceptable to me." The Jehovah`s Witness does, the Christian Scientist does, Terri Schiavo, I believe, did. Many of us...

GRACE: You left out -- you left out her religion, which is Catholic. And right now, the Pope is on a feeding tube. Now, since you`re bringing her religion into it as a justification for not wanting a feeding tube, the Pope is on a feeding tube.

CAPLAN: He is.

GRACE: So how could you presume that she wouldn`t want the same thing as a Catholic?

CAPLAN: This Pope taught that a feeding tube has to be seen as a treatment. Interestingly enough, when Terri had her heart attack, the church allowed the withdrawal of feeding tubes. There is a fight on with the Catholic Church within it. The America bishops are nervous about this position that feeding tubes have to go on all the time. I`ve talked to lots of Catholic people, Catholic theologians and Catholic hospital directors, and they`re saying, "Never take the feeding tube out?"

GRACE: To Tim Padgett, very quickly, Tim, where does this leave us now?

TIM PADGETT, TIME MAGAZINE: I think this leaves us with the temptation, at least, to say that there`s going to be a great debate in the wake of all of this on a number of fronts. And as I said, there`s a temptation, but there`s also a reality here.

For example, in our magazine this week, 75 percent of Americans seem to be saying that they didn`t agree with Congress`s intervention here, that they seem to be agreeing with the status quo, essentially. And so it`s hard to think that that`s going to change.

GRACE: Right.

PADGETT: But by the same token, I think you are going to have a grand discussion, at least, on at least three fronts, the legal, the medical, and the moral in this country. On the legal, you are going to see Congress and state legislatures...

GRACE: Hey, Tim?

PADGETT: Yes.

GRACE: We have got to go to a quick break. We`ll be right back with Tim Padgett from Time Magazine. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JUDY FORTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I`m Judy Fortin. Here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Pope John Paul II`s health has deteriorated today. And an aide has administered last rites. A Vatican official says the pontiff has a high fever from a urinary tract infection and is being treated with antibiotics. Last rites are given to the seriously ill and not necessarily just those expected to die.

A blunt account of prewar U.S. intelligence finds it was dead wrong in its assessments of Iraq`s weapons of mass destruction. President Bush says the report shows officials need to make changes. And he says the report gives useful guidance on how to make those changes.

And defense officials say U.S. forces in Iraq are holding a senior operative of terrorist leader Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi. He is said to hold joint U.S.-Jordanian citizenship. The man was captured in a raid late last year. Weapons and bomb-making materials were found in his residence when he was captured.

That`s the news for now. I`m Judy Fortin. Back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID GIBBS, SCHINDLER FAMILY`S ATTORNEY: This is, indeed, a sad day for the nation. This is a sad day for the family. Their faith in God remains consistent and strong. They are absolutely convinced that God loves Terri more than they do. They believe that Terri is now ultimately at peace with God himself. And they intend to comfort themselves with their faith and with their family at this time.

GEORGE FELOS, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL SCHIAVO: I can just tell you that Mr. Schiavo`s overriding concern here was to provide for Terri a peaceful death with dignity. And I emphasize it because this death was not for the siblings, and not for the spouse, and not for the parents. This was for Terri. She has a right -- she has a right to die peaceably in a loving setting and with dignity. And that was his overriding concern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. As I told you earlier, we are bringing you live updates from Vatican City as to the health of the Pope. We`ll take you there shortly to a CNN analyst.

But now to Washington Post reporter Manuel Roig-Franzia.

Manuel, who exactly was there in the room with her when Terri Schiavo passed away?

ROIG-FRANZIA: George Felos was in the room. He is the attorney for Michael Schiavo. Michael Schiavo was there, so was Michael Schiavo`s brother, another attorney and some of the hospice workers, some of whom had been staying after their shifts had ended so that they could say goodbye for one last time. And George Felos told us that Michael Schiavo was cradling his wife at the moment of her death and that she had a stuffed animal tucked under her arm.

GRACE: Manuel, so you`re telling me that there were two lawyers in the room that Terri Schiavo did not know in life but her brother and sister were barred from the room?

ROIG-FRANZIA: That`s what George Felos told us. There was that confrontation between Bobby Schindler and the police. And the story is a little bit different on each of the sides as to who was at fault. But the bottom line was that the brother and sister were not there.

GRACE: Manuel, what`s the point of having her cremated? Why does her husband want her cremated?

ROIG-FRANZIA: You know, that`s not an issue that has ever been particularly fleshed out. However, it has certainly been a topic of discussion for conspiracy theorists. A lot of people questioning the motives of Michael Schiavo, whether rightly or wrongly, and there have been some on the Internet and some commentators who have said he was trying to get rid of the evidence.

GRACE: You know, another issue on that, Manuel, is the Schindlers don`t want the autopsy. Not only that, they want a funeral. And Schiavo is digging in and insisting after the autopsy that she be cremated.

ROIG-FRANZIA: Yes. All this, Nancy, is wrapped up in religion. And it`s only fitting that today you are also talking about Pope John Paul II who also has a feeding tube right now, but a feeding tube of a much less invasive nature that is inserted in his nose rather than the surgical procedure required here.

GRACE: Oh, please, please, please, Manuel, I respect you deeply. But when we`re starting to argue about where the feeding tube is inserted and how it makes a difference, I don`t know if I`m buying into that ball of wax.

Don`t move, Manuel.

Very quickly to Tim Padgett with Time Magazine. Tim, we left you at the break time. Go ahead. Where are we now?

PADGETT: Well, as I said, I think we are going to see discussions on three major fronts, the legal, the medical and the moral.

The legal, first, you`re going to see Congress and state legislatures. They have already begun attempting to reassess and even redefine the parameters of the right to die.

For example, should oral testimony, such as in the case of Terri Schiavo, be allowed in courts or should we only be allowing written, legal testimony of the patients as to what they want done with them in cases like this? Are we going to see more precise definitions between when it is and when it is not conscionable to remove life support? Are we going to see states yielding more to the federal government on issues like this?

And the medical front, you are going to see a lot more debate, I think, in the neurological community that Dr. Cranford represents about whether we`ve broadened too far the definition of what a persistent vegetative state is, when we define when the brain is aware and when it`s just merely awake, as was the major bone of contention in this case.

And I think, also, importantly, we are going to see a lot of discussion in the moral field, the culture of life, the sanctity of life.

GRACE: I agree. But Tim, all this discussion doesn`t amount to a hill of beans unless there can be an agreement, unless there`s some type of a consensus. I mean, look what the legislature did, the Congress. Look at all the varying opinions by a bunch of judges. It all boils down to the family within themselves couldn`t make a decision. And now, the whole country has jumped on the bandwagon one way or the other.

Manuel, Tim is right regarding all of these issues, but the reality is, it all boiled down to a circus outside Terri Schiavo`s room.

ROIG-FRANZIA: Well, I don`t know if I would use the word "circus" but it certainly was a brawl.

GRACE: There was a juggler. There was a juggler there, a juggler. A juggler showed up.

ROIG-FRANZIA: Oh, you`re talking about the scene outside of the hospice. Well, yes, that had elements of the circus. And it has elements of it right now. A guy dressed as the Grim Reaper is just a few steps away from me.

GRACE: No. No.

ROIG-FRANZIA: I`m not kidding.

GRACE: You know what? That is an affront. That is an affront.

To Robert Raben, do you really believe we will see a flood of legislation? Because before legislation, Robert, you have got to have an agreement. You really think politicians are going to agree on this?

ROBERT RABEN, FORMER ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, you hit it right on the head. The most important thing is for adults to express their wishes.

Sit down right now, if you haven`t, at your kitchen table. Talk to your loved ones. Talk to your family. Be as clear as possible about how you want the final chapters of your life to be written.

I think, building on your point, the most important thing that the nation has learned is these are intensely private decisions. They need to remain that way. You need to take control of your own destiny. And of all the people making the decision for you, the very lowest on Americans` list is elected officials and self-ordained religious people standing outside of your hospital room saying, "This is how I want you to die."

GRACE: To Reverend Barry Lynn, you agree with Michael Schiavo`s decision, correct?

REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: I think it`s important that he was not doing anything but trying to express and have the courts approve of what he believed were Mrs. Schiavo`s last wishes.

There are two big things that have somehow gotten lost in this. She had multiple opportunities -- and the people on the other side of her husband had multiple opportunities -- to present evidence and to present appeals. In every instance, people agreed with the basic facts that were decided, the most important one being that Mrs. Schiavo did not want this kind of medical intervention.

Now, Nancy, of all people, you understand that the courts in this country filled with judges are supposed to judge. That is they have to weigh evidence. They have to ultimately make the final decision. I think the judiciary objective and neutral decision-makers at both the state level and the federal level...

GRACE: Reverend?

LYNN: ... did exactly what the courts are supposed to do.

GRACE: Reverend, Reverend, I know you support Schiavo`s decision to take away the feeding tube. But the reality is, he was her husband in her life, not in her sickness. He deserted her a long, long time ago. He has got another woman, another family, basically, a common-law wife.

Now, in my mind, that constitutes a separation, a divorce of sorts, de facto. He left her for another family. He`s got two kids. So why is he still making the decisions for her, that he says they discussed during their marriage? The marriage is over.

LYNN: Yes.

GRACE: So why is he still her guardian?

LYNN: Well, the reason is, because this issue, again, had been fully explored by the courts. People say he shouldn`t be the guardian. He wasn`t in a position to do it. The Florida state courts, based on Florida family law, made this decision.

I`m not going to sit and make a judgment about a man who spent eight years taking care on a daily basis of Mrs. Schiavo and then finally decides that, because he wants children, he`s going to form a relationship with another woman. This does not make him an indecent person.

And I think that some of the comments that were made over the course of the last week about the indecency of this man are so outrageous. Here is a man who, remember...

GRACE: Well, hey, you didn`t hear indecency here. But I can tell you this much: He`s moved on to a whole other family and a whole other woman. And him continuing to work act on her behalf as if they`re still married, marriage is `til death do us part last I time I read the statute.

LYNN: That`s correct.

GRACE: Jay Sekulow, has something changed?

LYNN: No. But death happened today. He was cradling Mrs. Schiavo in his arms according to the witnesses that were there. Obviously, neither of us were there. I think this man, for example, would allow access -- he allowed multiple communions to occur in the last week.

GRACE: Well, the brother and sister were kept out, were they not?

LYNN: Well, he also -- I`ll tell you, Nancy, he also did something that I think very few of us would be willing to do, and that is he allowed folks, including the family, including many of their spiritual advisers, to go into the room every day in the hospice knowing that they would go out and talk to the media and trash him, and even essentially make allegations that he was a killer.

I don`t know how much you want from any human being. It`s not that I`m on Michael Schiavo`s side. It`s on the side of law. It`s on the side of principles. And it`s on the side of the idea that when all of the courts reach the same conclusion, we have to live with it.

GRACE: Quick break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FELOS: It was evident to everyone, everyone around him, the profound emotion and loss of Mr. Schiavo. He loved Terri deeply, and her passing was a tremendous loss for him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Before we go back to Florida and the Terri Schiavo story, I want to take you to Vatican City. Standing by, Delia Gallagher, CNN Vatican analyst.

Delia, what can you tell us now about the status of the Pope`s health?

GALLAGHER: Well, the latest, Nancy, is that the Pope is responding well to treatment. He`s receiving antibiotic treatment for the urinary tract infection which caused this high fever earlier in the evening. This, of course, is only another crisis in what has been a very difficult time for the Pope.

Just yesterday, he had this nasal gastric tube placed through his nose into his stomach. He also has the tracheotomy tube from several weeks. So it is a delicate time for this Pope. But good news out of the Vatican, that he is responding well to treatment.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with Delia in just a few moments.

Right now, down to Florida. I want to talk to Jay Sekulow. He`s chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice.

You opposed the removal of the feeding tube. Why?

SEKULOW: Well, two reasons. Number one, you are talking about food and sustenance. You`re talking about food and water. And you don`t have a living will here. And I think what you have been saying, Nancy, actually, this entire evening, is absolutely correct. And that what needs not to be overlooked here.

You had a situation -- and I really disagree with Barry on this. You had a situation where the guardian -- and it`s supposed to be someone that has only the interest of the person they`re in charge of at interest. That`s what they`re supposed to be doing, only focusing on Terri.

He had another family, a common-law wife, basically, and two children. Now, no one disparaging the children or the common-law wife. But let`s be realistic. If there was a miracle of miracles during this case, and she was somehow to have been restored to some communicating capabilities, what would have Michael Schiavo done then with his other family and Terri there alive and being able to communicate?

So this was an inherent conflict of interest. And unfortunately, that conflict of interest resulted in what I think was a violation of due process of law, something that I think the courts here missed completely.

And by the way, there were two very strong dissents from the 11th Circuit. One of those individuals at the senate was an appointee by President Clinton. So this crossed all kinds of ideological lines here. And I think that`s the real tragedy of this, a violation of due process.

And this was a disability case. Talk to people who have been saying it`s a right-to-life case, it`s a right-to-die case. No, it is a disability case. And people with disabilities, even severe disabilities, shouldn`t be given this kind of second-class treatment.

GRACE: Well, another issue, Jay, is her Catholicism. We see the Pope on a feeding tube tonight. And the other doctors, physical doctors, can argue with me until they`re blue in the face. I don`t care where the feeding tube is inserted...

SEKULOW: It`s a feeding tube.

GRACE: ... and to what orifice it`s inserted, a feeding tube is a feeding tube, is a feeding tube.

SEKULOW: Absolutely.

GRACE: So what effect does that have on Schiavo?

SEKULOW: Well, here you had -- I mean, you talk about a violation. Look at the situation with the Pope. No one is debating whether the Pope should be on a feeding tube. You took that feeding tube out, the Pope would die, because he would have no hydration and no food.

Now, the same exact situation happened with Terri Schiavo. You know what the difference is? The Pope`s cognitive capabilities were much stronger than Terri`s.

GRACE: Yes.

SEKULOW: And that means that people that are disabled don`t get the same kind of equal treatment. And that is, I think, just a tragic day for America in that regard.

GRACE: Dr. Deltito, response?

DELTITO: (OFF-MIKE) this is a story about how society treats disabled people. I can tell you, nourishment, hydration is being withheld from all sorts of disabled people who do not have terminal disease.

Like Pontius Pilate, doctors are washing their hands, believing that they`re not really having some sort of stain on them for doing this because it`s somehow a natural process if people die by starvation. I think it`s barbaric.

I think Dr. Cranford was a little disingenuous when he said that this is a very easy way to die, because, yes, maybe at the moment of death, and for a couple of days before it, someone is in a coma and maybe isn`t in pain. But what leads up to that, the seven, eight, nine days that leads up to that, is obviously torture. We have to do better for people than this.

GRACE: Dr. Cranford, response? I think I`ve got Dr. Cranford with me.

CRANFORD: Yes, you do. I think she was -- she was unconscious. She was just as unconscious as someone in a coma. She was in a vegetative state. So it wasn`t painful for her. It was the same thing as a coma. This is not a disability case. Yes, the Supreme Court...

DELTITO: You had said...

(CROSSTALK)

CRANFORD: ... the other case around the country have said -- don`t interrupt me yet. They have said that these are right-to-die cases, right to terminate treatment (UNINTELLIGIBLE) self-determination. You`ve got to look back at 20 years of law, medicine and health care. And the standards of profession, the medical profession, say it`s OK to withdraw a feeding tube from someone in the vegetative state. You just have to refer back to what`s happened the last 20 years in terms of a consensus I thought we`d built up.

DELTITO: You said earlier in the show that there was no proof that she was aware or sentient. I forget the exact word. But it should be, is there proof that she is not? And I would maintain that there is no proof that she is not sentient. She did not have a flat EEG.

GRACE: Guys, I want to quickly go -- Dr. Deltito, Dr. Cranford -- back to Tim Padgett with Time Magazine.

Tim, this is disturbing to me, that Michael Schiavo had guardianship over her that was named during their marriage, right, that he spoke for her. Well, obviously, since that time, he has created a common-law wife, yet he still has guardianship over life-and-death decisions, Tim.

PADGETT: Well, just to interject a factual tidbit. Back in 1992, I believe it was, in a deposition, in a court deposition, Terri Schiavo`s parents themselves, Bob Schindler in particular, testified that he had advised Michael to go ahead and start dating other women because, even at that point, they realized that Terri might not ever recover to a point where she could be a functioning spouse to him again.

And, so, you know, when we look at this issue of him taking common-law wife, I think we have to go back to the early days before Michael and the Schindler family had this awful falling out. There was more reasonable dialogue between the two sides at that time.

GRACE: True, true. If we could only turn back that clock.

Tim Padgett, we`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Let`s go straight to Reverend Patrick Mahoney. He has been in touch with the Schindler family, Terri Schiavo`s blood relatives.

Reverend, what can you tell me about their state of mind tonight?

MAHONEY: Well, Nancy, I think you saw it when they had the news conference. And this is why the American public has so embraced them. They came out. It was obviously a very contentious 15 years. But they said, "Let us forgive. Let us go forward from here. Let us build for the rights and justice for those struggling with disabilities and other issues."

I think you see the real decency of Bob and Mary, Bobby and Suzanne. They simply said, "Let us love our daughter. We`ll change her diaper. We`ll care for her." That`s dying with peace and dignity. Dying in peace and dignity is not being dehydrated to death but being in a room with loving parents and siblings caring for you, changing you, loving you, reaching out to you. That`s death with dignity.

And so I think you`re seeing the family -- obviously, they`re devastated. It`s been most difficult on Mary, the mom. But this is a family that`s strong in faith. They`re going forward. And Bobby alluded today in his comments that he wants to go forward. And I`ve talked with him about being an advocate for the disabled, about ensuring that this never happens again. So this is a very gentle, kind family who just wanted to love and care for their daughter.

GRACE: Let me quickly go to final thoughts with Dr. Ronald Cranford. Doctor...

CRANFORD: Yes?

GRACE: Final thoughts tonight?

CRANFORD: I think it`s the tragedy. The last three cases I`ve been involved with have been right-to-die cases, have been conflict between the family and the spouse. And you can`t resolve those. They have been very difficult. I don`t think you`ll ever resolve conflicts between spouse and family. They`re tragic situations. Everybody sympathizes with the Schindler family.

GRACE: We`re saying good night.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, Reverend Patrick Mahoney, Reverend Barry Lynn, Jay Sekulow, Dr. Art Caplan, Dr. Cranford, Robert Raben, Manuel Roig-Franzia, Mr. Padgett, Dr. Deltito.

My biggest thank you, though, is to you for being with us, inviting us into your home. Stay tuned for the headlines around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you here tomorrow, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END

Aired March 31, 2005 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: After weeks of angry protests, marches, police arrests, and Congress calling emergency sessions, the beautiful young woman at the center of all the controversy, Terri Schiavo, has passed away. Her parents, brother and sister all kicked out during Schiavo`s final moments on Earth. Instead, her husband, Michael Schiavo -- the man responsible for her slow death by starvation -- was there instead. Now, as her family mourns, he is planning her autopsy.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Terri Schiavo hopefully is resting in peace tonight finally. But again tonight, the angerness and the bitterness lives on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRIAR FRANK PAVONE, SPIRITUAL ADVISOR TO THE SCHINDLERS: We were told that we had to leave the room because there would be an assessment of her condition and then a visitation by Michael. Bobby Schindler, her brother said, "We want to be in the room when she dies." Michael Schiavo said, "No, you cannot."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The final battle? Schiavo`s funeral. Her husband, Michael, now moved on to essentially an all-new wife and children, wants Terri cremated. Her parents want her buried.

Tonight, in Washington, the director of the Christian Defense Coalition Reverend Patrick Mahoney; and from Americans United for Separation, Reverend Barry Lynn; in Crawford, Georgia, chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice, Jay Sekulow; in Philadelphia, from the University of Pennsylvania, Dr. Art Caplan; in Minneapolis, chief medical witness on behalf of Michael Schiavo, Dr. Ronald Cranford; in Washington, national advocate for Compassion and Choices, Robert Raben; in New York, psychiatrist Dr. Joseph Deltito.

Joining us shortly, we`ll have from Pinellas Park Tim Padgett with Time magazine. And let me also advise you that, throughout this evening`s edition of NANCY GRACE, we will be taking you live to the Vatican for updates on the health of the Pope.

Very quickly, let me go to Art Caplan. Art, I know that you are pro- Michael Schiavo, but what I don`t understand is why the family was kept away from her deathbed. I would want my mother and father there along with me when I died.

DR. ART CAPLAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: Well, I do favor the decision-making that Michael made on behalf of his wife. I think he basically heard her last, heard her wishes last, so he was the person who said, "Look, I know what she said last." But this bitter, horrible, divisive fight right to the end, there was never going to be a truce. They were never going to try and go for any kind of reconciliation.

And I have to tell you, I think it`s sad. I think it`s just unfortunate that this all had to happen, played out on a national stage, bitter to the end. There`s no way you can endorse that.

GRACE: Reverend Patrick Mahoney, your thoughts about the Schindlers being kept away from their daughter`s deathbed?

REV. PATRICK MAHONEY, DIR. CHRISTIAN DEFENSE COALITION: Well, Nancy, it`s tragic. I think when you saw the Schindlers make their comments after Terri had passed away -- I have grown to know and love these people. They talked about forgiveness. They talked about healing. They quoted from the Gospel.

I think the fact that Michael Schiavo -- with the mom and dad, with Bobby and Suzanne there, wanting to be there and not allowing them -- if you`ll remember, Bobby said, "Look, bring a police officer in here. Let us just be together." Nancy, I think that speaks volumes about what kind of person Michael Schiavo is. And I don`t think I`ll comment any further on that. I think the American public can make their own assessment just on that one episode.

GRACE: To Jay Sekulow -- he`s the chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice -- were Terri Schiavo`s rights violated?

I think I`ve got Jay Sekulow with me.

JAY SEKULOW, AMERICAN CENTER FOR LAW AND JUSTICE: Yes, I can hear you. Can you hear me OK?

GRACE: Yes. Were Terri Schiavo`s right violated in any way?

SEKULOW: I think they were. I think that -- look, the fact of the matter is that you had a husband that had a common law wife, basically, and a family with two children. And he was supposed to be the guardian. He was supposed to have the primary interest of the basically his wife at stake here.

And how could he possibly be an independent guardian looking out for her best interests when he already had another family? And I think that is where the due process violation took place here. And that`s the real tragedy of this case. And if there`s anything that we learned from this, when you have a situation like that, the best thing to do is not have that person be the guardian while the spouse is laying in a hospital room.

GRACE: Jay, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUZANNE VITADAMO, TERRI SCHIAVO`S SISTER: Please continue to pray that God gives grace to our family as we go through this very difficult time. We know that many of you never had the privilege to personally know our wonderful sister, Terri, but we assure you that you can be proud of this remarkable woman who has captured the attention of the world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terri, your life and legacy will continue to live on as the nation is now awakened to the plight of thousands of voiceless people with disabilities that were previously unnoticed. Your family intends to stand up for the other Terri`s around this nation, and we will do all that we can to change the law so others won`t face the same fate that has befallen you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Dr. Joseph Deltito is with us. Doctor, as well as psychiatrist, Dr. Deltito, it seems to get worse and worse the more we hear. First, we know that -- as this woman was not on a ventilator. She was basically starved to death. Her parents were kept away from her death bed.

DR. JOSEPH DELTITO, NEW YORK MEDICAL COLLEGE: Yes. I think most people don`t consider life support being fed when they hear that term. Because everything can be life support. I had a veal cutlet sandwich this afternoon. That`s life support, or antibiotics or whatever.

It`s a very, very sad case. I think there are people who had all sorts of conflicts of interest, their own agenda who had crucial roles in this scenario. And it`s going to bear a lot of examination.

GRACE: I want to go now to Washington Post reporter Manuel Roig- Franzia. Manuel, thank you for being with us. Bring us up-to-date. What happened today?

MANUEL ROIG-FRANZIA, WASHINGTON POST: Today was the day that everyone here was waiting for, that everyone here was dreading. It came early this morning, the news that Terri Schiavo had died.

And then things got very interesting, because things got very accusational, very confrontational. You had the spiritual adviser to the Schindlers saying that Michael Schiavo had done something very, very wrong by keeping Bobby Schindler and his sister out of the hospice room right before Terri Schiavo died. And then, not long afterwards, you had George Felos, the attorney for Michael Schiavo, rebutting that.

GRACE: Back to the parents, very quickly, Manuel, I know they were kept away. Could you tell me -- did they at least get to see her body before it was taken away?

ROIG-FRANZIA: Nancy, my understanding is not that they were kept away. According to what we heard here today, they were not at the facility at the time that Terri Schiavo died. Later, they came and were allowed to see her body and be with her for a time, according to the attorneys who came out and spoke.

It was Bobby Schindler, the brother...

GRACE: And sister.

ROIG-FRANZIA: ... and Suzanne -- yes -- who had that confrontation with the police right before Terri died, 15 minutes before she died. And that led to them being kept out of the room at the moment.

GRACE: Manuel, where is the autopsy going to be held?

ROIG-FRANZIA: The autopsy is being performed by the chief medal examiner here in Pinellas County. It`s going to be performed immediately. There are going to be results very shortly, according to George Felos, on the macro-examination, which means the more preliminary eyeballing of the body.

Other tests, much more significant tests that require labs and chemistry, will be conducted. And those reports will take a little bit more time. And you know, as you know, this autopsy is so important to Michael Schiavo, because he wants the autopsy to prove that his wife was as brain damaged as his doctors say she was.

GRACE: So, basically, Dr. Ronald Cranford, you were the chief medical witness for her husband, Michael Schiavo, he`s having her body, her brain, her organs, sliced up so he can say, "I was right"?

DR. RONALD CRANFORD, CHIEF MEDICAL WITNESS ON BEHALF OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO: Well, I think so, because there`s some question about what happened. And I think the autopsy will show undeniably that she had severe hypoxia (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that is damage to the brain, secondary to the cardiac arrest she had in 1990, and that she was -- condition was irreversible.

So I think he was forced to have an autopsy just to clarify for everyone that the autopsy will show exactly what we have been saying all along, that she is irreversibly brain damaged.

GRACE: Did I hear you say he`s being forced to have an autopsy?

CRANFORD: I think so. I think that otherwise he might not have. But I think to clarify to show that what we have said all along is true, that she has got severe brain damage. I think they are going to do it.

And by the way, this isn`t starvation. That`s a jingle. She didn`t starve to death. She was dehydrated to death. It occurs every day, Nancy, day after day. Pardon?

GRACE: So she thirsted to death? So she thirsted to death? Dehydrate, that means no water, right?

CRANFORD: No water. And they die of dehydration in 10 to 14 days just like...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, so, Doctor, is that any less suffering, to die of thirst as to die of hunger?

CRANFORD: Well, yes, because they`re totally different. You don`t have starvation in this situation. She was unconscious. This is the most humane, caring, dignified, loving way to die for someone in a vegetative state, to remove the feeding tube. We do it all the time, Nancy, around the country. Hundreds or thousands of doctors have done this on many occasions. This is nothing new. And it`s not starvation.

GRACE: Doctor, doctor, was she given any food or nutrients of any type for the last two weeks?

CRANFORD: Well, it wouldn`t make any sense to give her any because she`s unconscious.

GRACE: So the answer would be no? Well, I know if I wasn`t given anything to eat for two weeks, I would feel like I was starving. I know you are calling it dehydration. I understand that. But no food, no water, to me, is starving. But I`m going to let you clarify it with me when we get back. We have got to go to break. With me, Dr. Ronald Cranford.

CRANFORD: Sure.

GRACE: Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REV. JESSE JACKSON, SCHINDLER FAMILY SUPPORTER: I`m saddened by her passing. And I`m pained by -- at least it was unnecessary. But in the end, without food and water for 14 days, she was starved and dehydrated to death. So to me it was merciless rather than merciful.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Today, millions of Americans are saddened by the death of Terri Schiavo. Laura and I extend our condolences to Terri Schiavo`s families. I appreciate the example of grace and dignity they have displayed at a difficult time. I urge all those who honor Terri Schiavo to continue to work to build a culture of life, where all Americans are welcomed, and valued, and protected, especially those who live at the mercy of others.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. Thank you for being with us tonight.

As I promised you earlier, we are bringing you repeated updates on the health of the Pope. Let`s go now to Vatican City. Delia Gallagher, CNN Vatican analyst, is with us.

Thank you, Delia, for being with us. What can you tell us tonight?

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, I think the important piece of information just to come out from the Pope`s spokesman, Navarro- Valls, is that the Pope is responding well to treatment.

Earlier this evening, we heard that he was suffering from a high fever due to a urinary tract infection. However, it seems that, with the antibiotics that the doctors have given him, the Pope seems to be responding well. This is all we have at the moment.

It is late into the night here. And so, unless the condition worsens considerably, we probably will not have an official update until tomorrow - - Nancy?

GRACE: Delia, could you tell me, is the Pope using a feeding tube?

GALLAGHER: Well, this is a term which means tube through the nose, so, yes, he is being fed through a tube which is placed in his nose and goes into his stomach, obviously fed liquids for nutritional purposes. The Pope cannot swallow very easily. He has to have a tube in his throat due to the tracheotomy. So this was something which they put in place yesterday. And so the Pope is being nourished by a tube, yes.

GRACE: Delia, thanks for being with us.

With us, Delia Gallagher. She is a CNN Vatican analyst there at the Vatican City.

Very quickly to Reverend Patrick Mahoney. Reverend, we know that Terri Schiavo is a Catholic. Please explain to me the significance of a feeding tube and the decision to willfully die, to give up life to a Catholic.

MAHONEY: Well, I`m a Presbyterian minister, but I`ll be happy to address that.

GRACE: Yes.

MAHONEY: Number one, Nancy, Terri Schiavo was not terminally ill. Terri Schiavo was not dying. Terri Schiavo did not have a disease. So Terri Schiavo died from dehydration.

In other words, it was not the disease that killed her. And this is why this is so important to address, especially with those who are disabled. And I think people out there have to understand she was not in a coma. She was not a vegetable. She was not being kept on life support. Terri Schiavo was not sick. She was not terminal.

So the cause of her death was not from her disease, but it was from dehydration. And the doctor that you just had on -- I`ll make a mental note never to have him as my family physician -- to just cavalierly talk about this woman dying from dehydration as if he`s taking a stroll in the park is reprehensible. She dies a barbaric death, a painful death, a horrible death. And for him to somehow say, "Well, this happens all the time. It`s a humane way to go," I would simply have to disagree with that.

GRACE: Dr. Cranford, response?

CRANFORD: (OFF-MIKE) twenty-five to fifty times in my lifetime. It`s very common to withdraw a feeding tube. I`ve done it in the most humane circumstances. The U.S. Supreme Court agrees that a feeding tube is a medical treatment. He`s just denying the reality of the last 20 years, 20, 25 state Supreme Court decisions saying a feeding tube`s medical treatment. It happens all the time, hundreds, and hundreds, and hundreds of doctors have discontinued feeding tubes...

(CROSSTALK)

MAHONEY: What happens on day seven? If you are still alive, what happens to your body on day seven? Could you explain that to the viewers?

CRANFORD: Well, at some point, your body shuts down. You have a lack of fluids. You do die of dehydration. Your cardiac output goes down...

MAHONEY: And what`s that like?

CRANFORD: ... due to inadequate blood.

MAHONEY: And what`s that like? Describe that for the viewers, Doctor, this "peaceful death."

CRANFORD: Well, I will describe it. Well, let me describe it, and I will do it for you.

MAHONEY: Sure.

CRANFORD: It`s peaceful because she`s unconscious. She`s not aware of what`s going on. And then the body shuts down. The hands get cold. The feet get cold.

MAHONEY: Unbelievable.

CRANFORD: She gets very dry, and she dies of lack of fluids and cardiac output. That`s what happens in a lot of these cases like this. I don`t know where you get the idea this isn`t common, because it`s very, very common, actually, extremely common.

GRACE: But Dr. Cranford, just because it`s common does not mean that it`s OK. And I think that`s why so many people are upset. We assume, because 50 percent of the doctors tell us that she`s unconscious, that she can`t feel it. But what about the other doctors who say she`s not brain dead, she`s not in a vegetative state?

You wouldn`t even do this to a dog, Dr. Ronald Cranford, let it starve to death, let it go without food or water for two weeks.

CRANFORD: Oh, please, please, please, Nancy. Don`t use inflammatory language. There`s long evidentiary history hearing in the history of American law with Judge Greer. He agreed with the neurologist who said she was in a vegetative state. There`s not a shred of proof that she`s not in a vegetative state. And Judge Greer just didn`t believe the doctors who said she wasn`t in vegetation. You`ve heard of due process of law, I think, Nancy, haven`t you?

GRACE: Yes.

CRANFORD: We had due process of law here. And I think you know what that is, probably. That`s what we had here, due process of the law. The longest (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in the history...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And I know what dehydration is, too. And when you tell me that she didn`t starve to death because she was dehydrated. She didn`t get food or water for two weeks. I assume you know what that means. The woman laid there and starved to death. That`s what happened to her.

CRANFORD: How many times have you been -- how many times have you been to the bedside when this happened? I`ve been there 25 to 50 times.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Thank God, never, Doctor.

CRANFORD: ... they do die of dehydration.

GRACE: Thank God, never. And you know what? Her family wasn`t allowed to be there, either. Her brother and sister forced away. There was a confrontation. They couldn`t even be with her when she died.

CRANFORD: I agree with Art Caplan on that. That`s a very, very unfortunate situation when you have the parents against the spouse like that. That`s a very terrible aspect of this. I sympathize with the Schindlers. I don`t know how to resolve that issue. That`s a terrible issue. And that`s a separate issue from the standpoint of dehydration.

GRACE: Well, with that, Dr. Cranford, with that, I agree with you.

Stay with us, everyone. A quick break.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: This issue transcends politics, to be honest. And I think she will be -- her experience will heighten awareness of the importance of families dealing with end-of-life issues. And that is an incredible legacy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES DOBSON, FOCUS ON THE FAMILY: I`m not angry at the president or the governor. I am angry at Judge Greer and the federal courts that did not accept the demand or the order that came down from the Congress that this case be reviewed. I think that`s an outrage. And I regret it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. As you know, Ms. Schiavo finally resting in peace.

Let me quickly go to Art Caplan. He is pro-Michael Schiavo. He`s the chairman of the Department of Medical Ethics at the University of Pennsylvania.

Welcome, sir. Do you think that there`s any hope of showing why, through autopsy, why Terri Schiavo collapsed in the first place? The Schindler family suspects that abuse, not bulimia, but abuse, physical abuse, may have caused this.

CAPLAN: Well, I don`t think we`re going to get the complete answer. And I`m not sure anybody would be satisfied at this point who doesn`t really believe the facts as they came out in the trial.

And Nancy, let me shift to something slightly different. But we were talking about starvation. We`re talking about dehydration. There`s no sugarcoating it. Death is tough. It`s tough on people who watch it. There`s no way around it. It`s a hard thing.

I asked 200 of my students today, if you were Terri Schiavo, would you want to be in that state, 17 years, either permanently vegetative or so damaged that you can`t really communicate at all. None said yes. What they did say was, "I want someone to follow my wishes. I want to be heard."

And there`s all kinds of disputes about whether or not, you know, the husband spoke for her or whether it was accurate, whether it was witnessed. We had a lot of trials in this. But I want to make the point that Americans, I think, want to control how they die, even if it means suffocating, bleeding, dehydrating.

There`s no pretty way to die. But I think people sometimes say, "Don`t keep me in a state that`s unacceptable to me." The Jehovah`s Witness does, the Christian Scientist does, Terri Schiavo, I believe, did. Many of us...

GRACE: You left out -- you left out her religion, which is Catholic. And right now, the Pope is on a feeding tube. Now, since you`re bringing her religion into it as a justification for not wanting a feeding tube, the Pope is on a feeding tube.

CAPLAN: He is.

GRACE: So how could you presume that she wouldn`t want the same thing as a Catholic?

CAPLAN: This Pope taught that a feeding tube has to be seen as a treatment. Interestingly enough, when Terri had her heart attack, the church allowed the withdrawal of feeding tubes. There is a fight on with the Catholic Church within it. The America bishops are nervous about this position that feeding tubes have to go on all the time. I`ve talked to lots of Catholic people, Catholic theologians and Catholic hospital directors, and they`re saying, "Never take the feeding tube out?"

GRACE: To Tim Padgett, very quickly, Tim, where does this leave us now?

TIM PADGETT, TIME MAGAZINE: I think this leaves us with the temptation, at least, to say that there`s going to be a great debate in the wake of all of this on a number of fronts. And as I said, there`s a temptation, but there`s also a reality here.

For example, in our magazine this week, 75 percent of Americans seem to be saying that they didn`t agree with Congress`s intervention here, that they seem to be agreeing with the status quo, essentially. And so it`s hard to think that that`s going to change.

GRACE: Right.

PADGETT: But by the same token, I think you are going to have a grand discussion, at least, on at least three fronts, the legal, the medical, and the moral in this country. On the legal, you are going to see Congress and state legislatures...

GRACE: Hey, Tim?

PADGETT: Yes.

GRACE: We have got to go to a quick break. We`ll be right back with Tim Padgett from Time Magazine. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

JUDY FORTIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I`m Judy Fortin. Here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

Pope John Paul II`s health has deteriorated today. And an aide has administered last rites. A Vatican official says the pontiff has a high fever from a urinary tract infection and is being treated with antibiotics. Last rites are given to the seriously ill and not necessarily just those expected to die.

A blunt account of prewar U.S. intelligence finds it was dead wrong in its assessments of Iraq`s weapons of mass destruction. President Bush says the report shows officials need to make changes. And he says the report gives useful guidance on how to make those changes.

And defense officials say U.S. forces in Iraq are holding a senior operative of terrorist leader Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi. He is said to hold joint U.S.-Jordanian citizenship. The man was captured in a raid late last year. Weapons and bomb-making materials were found in his residence when he was captured.

That`s the news for now. I`m Judy Fortin. Back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID GIBBS, SCHINDLER FAMILY`S ATTORNEY: This is, indeed, a sad day for the nation. This is a sad day for the family. Their faith in God remains consistent and strong. They are absolutely convinced that God loves Terri more than they do. They believe that Terri is now ultimately at peace with God himself. And they intend to comfort themselves with their faith and with their family at this time.

GEORGE FELOS, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL SCHIAVO: I can just tell you that Mr. Schiavo`s overriding concern here was to provide for Terri a peaceful death with dignity. And I emphasize it because this death was not for the siblings, and not for the spouse, and not for the parents. This was for Terri. She has a right -- she has a right to die peaceably in a loving setting and with dignity. And that was his overriding concern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. As I told you earlier, we are bringing you live updates from Vatican City as to the health of the Pope. We`ll take you there shortly to a CNN analyst.

But now to Washington Post reporter Manuel Roig-Franzia.

Manuel, who exactly was there in the room with her when Terri Schiavo passed away?

ROIG-FRANZIA: George Felos was in the room. He is the attorney for Michael Schiavo. Michael Schiavo was there, so was Michael Schiavo`s brother, another attorney and some of the hospice workers, some of whom had been staying after their shifts had ended so that they could say goodbye for one last time. And George Felos told us that Michael Schiavo was cradling his wife at the moment of her death and that she had a stuffed animal tucked under her arm.

GRACE: Manuel, so you`re telling me that there were two lawyers in the room that Terri Schiavo did not know in life but her brother and sister were barred from the room?

ROIG-FRANZIA: That`s what George Felos told us. There was that confrontation between Bobby Schindler and the police. And the story is a little bit different on each of the sides as to who was at fault. But the bottom line was that the brother and sister were not there.

GRACE: Manuel, what`s the point of having her cremated? Why does her husband want her cremated?

ROIG-FRANZIA: You know, that`s not an issue that has ever been particularly fleshed out. However, it has certainly been a topic of discussion for conspiracy theorists. A lot of people questioning the motives of Michael Schiavo, whether rightly or wrongly, and there have been some on the Internet and some commentators who have said he was trying to get rid of the evidence.

GRACE: You know, another issue on that, Manuel, is the Schindlers don`t want the autopsy. Not only that, they want a funeral. And Schiavo is digging in and insisting after the autopsy that she be cremated.

ROIG-FRANZIA: Yes. All this, Nancy, is wrapped up in religion. And it`s only fitting that today you are also talking about Pope John Paul II who also has a feeding tube right now, but a feeding tube of a much less invasive nature that is inserted in his nose rather than the surgical procedure required here.

GRACE: Oh, please, please, please, Manuel, I respect you deeply. But when we`re starting to argue about where the feeding tube is inserted and how it makes a difference, I don`t know if I`m buying into that ball of wax.

Don`t move, Manuel.

Very quickly to Tim Padgett with Time Magazine. Tim, we left you at the break time. Go ahead. Where are we now?

PADGETT: Well, as I said, I think we are going to see discussions on three major fronts, the legal, the medical and the moral.

The legal, first, you`re going to see Congress and state legislatures. They have already begun attempting to reassess and even redefine the parameters of the right to die.

For example, should oral testimony, such as in the case of Terri Schiavo, be allowed in courts or should we only be allowing written, legal testimony of the patients as to what they want done with them in cases like this? Are we going to see more precise definitions between when it is and when it is not conscionable to remove life support? Are we going to see states yielding more to the federal government on issues like this?

And the medical front, you are going to see a lot more debate, I think, in the neurological community that Dr. Cranford represents about whether we`ve broadened too far the definition of what a persistent vegetative state is, when we define when the brain is aware and when it`s just merely awake, as was the major bone of contention in this case.

And I think, also, importantly, we are going to see a lot of discussion in the moral field, the culture of life, the sanctity of life.

GRACE: I agree. But Tim, all this discussion doesn`t amount to a hill of beans unless there can be an agreement, unless there`s some type of a consensus. I mean, look what the legislature did, the Congress. Look at all the varying opinions by a bunch of judges. It all boils down to the family within themselves couldn`t make a decision. And now, the whole country has jumped on the bandwagon one way or the other.

Manuel, Tim is right regarding all of these issues, but the reality is, it all boiled down to a circus outside Terri Schiavo`s room.

ROIG-FRANZIA: Well, I don`t know if I would use the word "circus" but it certainly was a brawl.

GRACE: There was a juggler. There was a juggler there, a juggler. A juggler showed up.

ROIG-FRANZIA: Oh, you`re talking about the scene outside of the hospice. Well, yes, that had elements of the circus. And it has elements of it right now. A guy dressed as the Grim Reaper is just a few steps away from me.

GRACE: No. No.

ROIG-FRANZIA: I`m not kidding.

GRACE: You know what? That is an affront. That is an affront.

To Robert Raben, do you really believe we will see a flood of legislation? Because before legislation, Robert, you have got to have an agreement. You really think politicians are going to agree on this?

ROBERT RABEN, FORMER ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, you hit it right on the head. The most important thing is for adults to express their wishes.

Sit down right now, if you haven`t, at your kitchen table. Talk to your loved ones. Talk to your family. Be as clear as possible about how you want the final chapters of your life to be written.

I think, building on your point, the most important thing that the nation has learned is these are intensely private decisions. They need to remain that way. You need to take control of your own destiny. And of all the people making the decision for you, the very lowest on Americans` list is elected officials and self-ordained religious people standing outside of your hospital room saying, "This is how I want you to die."

GRACE: To Reverend Barry Lynn, you agree with Michael Schiavo`s decision, correct?

REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: I think it`s important that he was not doing anything but trying to express and have the courts approve of what he believed were Mrs. Schiavo`s last wishes.

There are two big things that have somehow gotten lost in this. She had multiple opportunities -- and the people on the other side of her husband had multiple opportunities -- to present evidence and to present appeals. In every instance, people agreed with the basic facts that were decided, the most important one being that Mrs. Schiavo did not want this kind of medical intervention.

Now, Nancy, of all people, you understand that the courts in this country filled with judges are supposed to judge. That is they have to weigh evidence. They have to ultimately make the final decision. I think the judiciary objective and neutral decision-makers at both the state level and the federal level...

GRACE: Reverend?

LYNN: ... did exactly what the courts are supposed to do.

GRACE: Reverend, Reverend, I know you support Schiavo`s decision to take away the feeding tube. But the reality is, he was her husband in her life, not in her sickness. He deserted her a long, long time ago. He has got another woman, another family, basically, a common-law wife.

Now, in my mind, that constitutes a separation, a divorce of sorts, de facto. He left her for another family. He`s got two kids. So why is he still making the decisions for her, that he says they discussed during their marriage? The marriage is over.

LYNN: Yes.

GRACE: So why is he still her guardian?

LYNN: Well, the reason is, because this issue, again, had been fully explored by the courts. People say he shouldn`t be the guardian. He wasn`t in a position to do it. The Florida state courts, based on Florida family law, made this decision.

I`m not going to sit and make a judgment about a man who spent eight years taking care on a daily basis of Mrs. Schiavo and then finally decides that, because he wants children, he`s going to form a relationship with another woman. This does not make him an indecent person.

And I think that some of the comments that were made over the course of the last week about the indecency of this man are so outrageous. Here is a man who, remember...

GRACE: Well, hey, you didn`t hear indecency here. But I can tell you this much: He`s moved on to a whole other family and a whole other woman. And him continuing to work act on her behalf as if they`re still married, marriage is `til death do us part last I time I read the statute.

LYNN: That`s correct.

GRACE: Jay Sekulow, has something changed?

LYNN: No. But death happened today. He was cradling Mrs. Schiavo in his arms according to the witnesses that were there. Obviously, neither of us were there. I think this man, for example, would allow access -- he allowed multiple communions to occur in the last week.

GRACE: Well, the brother and sister were kept out, were they not?

LYNN: Well, he also -- I`ll tell you, Nancy, he also did something that I think very few of us would be willing to do, and that is he allowed folks, including the family, including many of their spiritual advisers, to go into the room every day in the hospice knowing that they would go out and talk to the media and trash him, and even essentially make allegations that he was a killer.

I don`t know how much you want from any human being. It`s not that I`m on Michael Schiavo`s side. It`s on the side of law. It`s on the side of principles. And it`s on the side of the idea that when all of the courts reach the same conclusion, we have to live with it.

GRACE: Quick break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FELOS: It was evident to everyone, everyone around him, the profound emotion and loss of Mr. Schiavo. He loved Terri deeply, and her passing was a tremendous loss for him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Before we go back to Florida and the Terri Schiavo story, I want to take you to Vatican City. Standing by, Delia Gallagher, CNN Vatican analyst.

Delia, what can you tell us now about the status of the Pope`s health?

GALLAGHER: Well, the latest, Nancy, is that the Pope is responding well to treatment. He`s receiving antibiotic treatment for the urinary tract infection which caused this high fever earlier in the evening. This, of course, is only another crisis in what has been a very difficult time for the Pope.

Just yesterday, he had this nasal gastric tube placed through his nose into his stomach. He also has the tracheotomy tube from several weeks. So it is a delicate time for this Pope. But good news out of the Vatican, that he is responding well to treatment.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with Delia in just a few moments.

Right now, down to Florida. I want to talk to Jay Sekulow. He`s chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice.

You opposed the removal of the feeding tube. Why?

SEKULOW: Well, two reasons. Number one, you are talking about food and sustenance. You`re talking about food and water. And you don`t have a living will here. And I think what you have been saying, Nancy, actually, this entire evening, is absolutely correct. And that what needs not to be overlooked here.

You had a situation -- and I really disagree with Barry on this. You had a situation where the guardian -- and it`s supposed to be someone that has only the interest of the person they`re in charge of at interest. That`s what they`re supposed to be doing, only focusing on Terri.

He had another family, a common-law wife, basically, and two children. Now, no one disparaging the children or the common-law wife. But let`s be realistic. If there was a miracle of miracles during this case, and she was somehow to have been restored to some communicating capabilities, what would have Michael Schiavo done then with his other family and Terri there alive and being able to communicate?

So this was an inherent conflict of interest. And unfortunately, that conflict of interest resulted in what I think was a violation of due process of law, something that I think the courts here missed completely.

And by the way, there were two very strong dissents from the 11th Circuit. One of those individuals at the senate was an appointee by President Clinton. So this crossed all kinds of ideological lines here. And I think that`s the real tragedy of this, a violation of due process.

And this was a disability case. Talk to people who have been saying it`s a right-to-life case, it`s a right-to-die case. No, it is a disability case. And people with disabilities, even severe disabilities, shouldn`t be given this kind of second-class treatment.

GRACE: Well, another issue, Jay, is her Catholicism. We see the Pope on a feeding tube tonight. And the other doctors, physical doctors, can argue with me until they`re blue in the face. I don`t care where the feeding tube is inserted...

SEKULOW: It`s a feeding tube.

GRACE: ... and to what orifice it`s inserted, a feeding tube is a feeding tube, is a feeding tube.

SEKULOW: Absolutely.

GRACE: So what effect does that have on Schiavo?

SEKULOW: Well, here you had -- I mean, you talk about a violation. Look at the situation with the Pope. No one is debating whether the Pope should be on a feeding tube. You took that feeding tube out, the Pope would die, because he would have no hydration and no food.

Now, the same exact situation happened with Terri Schiavo. You know what the difference is? The Pope`s cognitive capabilities were much stronger than Terri`s.

GRACE: Yes.

SEKULOW: And that means that people that are disabled don`t get the same kind of equal treatment. And that is, I think, just a tragic day for America in that regard.

GRACE: Dr. Deltito, response?

DELTITO: (OFF-MIKE) this is a story about how society treats disabled people. I can tell you, nourishment, hydration is being withheld from all sorts of disabled people who do not have terminal disease.

Like Pontius Pilate, doctors are washing their hands, believing that they`re not really having some sort of stain on them for doing this because it`s somehow a natural process if people die by starvation. I think it`s barbaric.

I think Dr. Cranford was a little disingenuous when he said that this is a very easy way to die, because, yes, maybe at the moment of death, and for a couple of days before it, someone is in a coma and maybe isn`t in pain. But what leads up to that, the seven, eight, nine days that leads up to that, is obviously torture. We have to do better for people than this.

GRACE: Dr. Cranford, response? I think I`ve got Dr. Cranford with me.

CRANFORD: Yes, you do. I think she was -- she was unconscious. She was just as unconscious as someone in a coma. She was in a vegetative state. So it wasn`t painful for her. It was the same thing as a coma. This is not a disability case. Yes, the Supreme Court...

DELTITO: You had said...

(CROSSTALK)

CRANFORD: ... the other case around the country have said -- don`t interrupt me yet. They have said that these are right-to-die cases, right to terminate treatment (UNINTELLIGIBLE) self-determination. You`ve got to look back at 20 years of law, medicine and health care. And the standards of profession, the medical profession, say it`s OK to withdraw a feeding tube from someone in the vegetative state. You just have to refer back to what`s happened the last 20 years in terms of a consensus I thought we`d built up.

DELTITO: You said earlier in the show that there was no proof that she was aware or sentient. I forget the exact word. But it should be, is there proof that she is not? And I would maintain that there is no proof that she is not sentient. She did not have a flat EEG.

GRACE: Guys, I want to quickly go -- Dr. Deltito, Dr. Cranford -- back to Tim Padgett with Time Magazine.

Tim, this is disturbing to me, that Michael Schiavo had guardianship over her that was named during their marriage, right, that he spoke for her. Well, obviously, since that time, he has created a common-law wife, yet he still has guardianship over life-and-death decisions, Tim.

PADGETT: Well, just to interject a factual tidbit. Back in 1992, I believe it was, in a deposition, in a court deposition, Terri Schiavo`s parents themselves, Bob Schindler in particular, testified that he had advised Michael to go ahead and start dating other women because, even at that point, they realized that Terri might not ever recover to a point where she could be a functioning spouse to him again.

And, so, you know, when we look at this issue of him taking common-law wife, I think we have to go back to the early days before Michael and the Schindler family had this awful falling out. There was more reasonable dialogue between the two sides at that time.

GRACE: True, true. If we could only turn back that clock.

Tim Padgett, we`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Let`s go straight to Reverend Patrick Mahoney. He has been in touch with the Schindler family, Terri Schiavo`s blood relatives.

Reverend, what can you tell me about their state of mind tonight?

MAHONEY: Well, Nancy, I think you saw it when they had the news conference. And this is why the American public has so embraced them. They came out. It was obviously a very contentious 15 years. But they said, "Let us forgive. Let us go forward from here. Let us build for the rights and justice for those struggling with disabilities and other issues."

I think you see the real decency of Bob and Mary, Bobby and Suzanne. They simply said, "Let us love our daughter. We`ll change her diaper. We`ll care for her." That`s dying with peace and dignity. Dying in peace and dignity is not being dehydrated to death but being in a room with loving parents and siblings caring for you, changing you, loving you, reaching out to you. That`s death with dignity.

And so I think you`re seeing the family -- obviously, they`re devastated. It`s been most difficult on Mary, the mom. But this is a family that`s strong in faith. They`re going forward. And Bobby alluded today in his comments that he wants to go forward. And I`ve talked with him about being an advocate for the disabled, about ensuring that this never happens again. So this is a very gentle, kind family who just wanted to love and care for their daughter.

GRACE: Let me quickly go to final thoughts with Dr. Ronald Cranford. Doctor...

CRANFORD: Yes?

GRACE: Final thoughts tonight?

CRANFORD: I think it`s the tragedy. The last three cases I`ve been involved with have been right-to-die cases, have been conflict between the family and the spouse. And you can`t resolve those. They have been very difficult. I don`t think you`ll ever resolve conflicts between spouse and family. They`re tragic situations. Everybody sympathizes with the Schindler family.

GRACE: We`re saying good night.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, Reverend Patrick Mahoney, Reverend Barry Lynn, Jay Sekulow, Dr. Art Caplan, Dr. Cranford, Robert Raben, Manuel Roig-Franzia, Mr. Padgett, Dr. Deltito.

My biggest thank you, though, is to you for being with us, inviting us into your home. Stay tuned for the headlines around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. See you here tomorrow, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

END