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Pope John Paul II Fighting for His Life
Aired April 01, 2005 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: The world is watching the Vatican this morning. Pope John Paul II fighting for his life. His health taking a serious turn for the worse overnight.
The latest word from Rome and the prayers from around the world as the pope faces the most serious health crisis of his life. That story is our top story on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING, with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: And good morning, everybody. On this Friday morning, I'm Bill Hemmer. Soledad is off today.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Carol Costello. Good morning to you.
HEMMER: We have a lot of information right now coming out of the Vatican on this huge moment for the Catholic Church and people around the world. Hundreds of millions concerned about the pope's condition. Here is what we know at this hour. The Vatican gave its latest update on the pope's condition about 90 minutes ago, saying the pope is conscious and is serene, but he's described as being in very serious condition. His blood pressure is unstable. The pope said to be suffering from septic shock, which is low blood flow due to an overwhelming infection in his organs. And Thursday night, the pope received the Catholic Church's sacrament of the sick, formerly called last rites.
And for the latest, we want to get to the Vatican City in Rome, where Jim Bittermann is monitoring the latest for us today. And, Jim, very candid comments from the Vatican earlier today. How much does that indicate to you the current condition and the seriousness of it for the pope.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think it's getting very serious indeed, Bill, because I think we're getting more information now as the Vatican realizes, there's really no point in putting any kind of spin on this. The pope is clearly in the stages of -- last stages of his life.
One of the things that's happened is there's been a cascade of medical problems in the last 12 to 18 hours, starting with the urinary-tract infection, then leading to septic shock, and that led to heart failure, and that's when this unstable blood pressure that Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the spokesman, talked about just a short while ago. Navarro-Valls, who is a doctor himself, has been with the pope for 26 years, in a kind of a personal note, he said I've never seen the pope in this condition in all the time i've spent with him. And he also said in a rather ominous way, that the press office is going to remain open 24 hours a day. That, to my recollection, I've been covering the Vatican for 26 years, to my recollection, that has never happened before. That they would keep the press office open indicates to me that they feel there will be something significant to announce in a very short time.
HEMMER: Jim, at what point will the Vatican speak more publicly about his condition? Is there a scheduled update from this point forward?
BITTERMANN: Well, in fact, yes. We are just hearing now that there could be another medical bulletin very shortly. We don't know what that means. And it is just a rumor that's circulating over at the Vatican press room, but it's possible we may get an update on the papal condition, an I would say that would indicate things are pretty serious, too, because normally, as you know, they're very sparse with the information when things are going well. So I think that if they're going to update something that was only updated an hour and a half ago, things may be changing fast -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim Bittermann, thanks for that, from Rome.
Let's talk about the medical condition for the pope now, to Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, good morning to you down at the CNN Center. How concerned are you about the symptoms you're hearing about him at this point?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Very concerned, Bill. And certainly we've been following the pope, his medical story along for a couple of months now. Over the past day, when you first heard about the high fevers, I first thought this was going to be a pneumonia, subsequently heard that it was a urinary-tract infection. Yesterday, they mentioned he had one episode of low-blood pressure. That raised our antennas to the fact this may have spread from his urinary tract to his bloodstream as well. This is the septic shock that people are talking about. You've seen the statement, Bill. It describes the pope as being lucid, as being conscious, but also having some changes in his blood pressure. All those things are not entirely consistent. What happens, Bill, with septic shock is that you get low blood flow to the organs, including the brain. So while someone might be conscious, lucid might be a little bit of an over-description.
Again, Bill, since February 1st, he's been out of the hospital with a breathing tube, with a feeding tube, now these high fevers. Very concerned -- Bill.
HEMMER: Take us back two months. It's April 1 now, you mentioned the first of February. Put in perspective, Sanjay, his health condition and what he has endured for the past 60 days.
GUPTA: You know, he was admitted to the hospital on February 1st for ten days. Subsequently, just less than two weeks after that, he received a breathing tube, and then the feeding tube. You can see the sort of sequence of events there, most recently now, the high fevers, the urinary-tract infection. I think we can safely add septic shock to this now over the last couple days.
I don't think he ever fully recovered, Bill, to put this in perspective from his first illness on February 1st. You know, he never really seemed to bounce back from that. He seemed like he had a significant infection. Obviously, in the hospital for 10 days at that point, probably never fully recovered. Add to that the operation he had, then the lack of calories, requiring the feeding tube, the high fever. It's sort of a cascade of events if you will -- Bill.
HEMMER: Let's try and define some of the medical terms again and take it precisely. Septic shock -- what happens in the body?
GUPTA: Septic shock basically means an overwhelming infection. It just means a systemic or body-wide infection. What happens is that the body responds, the blood pressure drops. The heart rate often goes up. As a result of the blood pressure being low, all the organs, the kidneys, the liver, and the brain as well don't get enough blood flow. That's obviously concerning. And this is where this whole notion of, is he lucid, is he not lucid? If you're not getting enough blood flow to the brain, typically, you are sleepy, you are very lethargic, unable to conduct your daily activities. Also, the kidneys they're not getting enough blood flow, so they may start to not work as well.
HEMMER: We know he has an enormous team of doctors at his side in the Vatican, Sanjay, but how much of his medical condition would be a surprise to doctors, knowing that they're treating him minute by minute?
GUPTA: I really don't think probably much of this is a surprise in the sense that once he developed the infection and developed the sepsis, or septic shock, it's a very predictable sort of pattern of events, which is why I can sort of talk the way I am about his status likely is. Obviously I have not examined the pope. I'm hearing the same reports you are. This is not surprising. Does not sound like he responded well to the antibiotics. Sounds like despite the antibiotics, this infection was spreading beyond his bladder to the rest of his bloodstream -- Bill.
HEMMER: Don't go far. Sanjay Gupta there at the CNN Center.
Here's Carol.
COSTELLO: Although the Vatican is saying publicly the pope is lucid, fully conscious, they also say his blood pressure is unstable, and his condition is very, very serious. But they're saying the pope is still able to participate in something like mass. But are they saying something different behind the scenes at the Vatican? we've seen the pope struggling in the past few days, unable to speak at his appearances at the window.
CNN's Vatican analyst John Allen is in Rome. He joins us live now. Good morning.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Carol.
COSTELLO: John, the Vatican is still painting an optimistic portrait here. They're saying he's met with cardinals, he's participated in a mass, but what is going on behind the scenes?
ALLEN: Well, I think the first note to be struck here is that, obviously, there was a sort of tone of optimism in the statement we got from the Vatican spokesperson, Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, one and a half hours ago. But if you read carefully between the lines of that statement, there was a clear acknowledgment of the extreme gravity of the situation Pope John Paul II is confronting. I think one thing extraordinary is that Dr. Navarro-Valls actually teared up during that press conference, and he's a man I've watched over a long period of time. He's normally a very cool customer, and the fact that he was at one point overcome with emotion I think is terribly significant.
The other point, is that he announced that the Holy Sea (ph) press office would actually be open all night tonight. That's an extraordinary step in itself. It normally closes at 3:00 in the afternoon. And obviously, a clear recognition that something dramatic could happen.
At the same time, it's important that we not get ahead of ourselves. As you indicated, Dr. Navarro-Valls told us the pope is still conscious, participated in mass this morning, has met with some of his aides, and is now involved in prayer. So he's aware of the gravity of the situation, but obviously there still remains a kind of undercurrent hope that this man, who has surmounted so many obstacles in the past may have one more miracle in store.
COSTELLO: But in listening to Dr. Sanjay Gupta just moments ago, John, it's difficult to believe the pope was really able to run the church. At what stage does he become incapacitated in the Vatican's eyes?
ALLEN: Well, you know, the truth, Carol, is that under the Vatican system, there noise such thing as a vice pope. Whoever is pope is pope until the moment of his death. And then there is no provision in church law for the pope transferring his authority to someone else, or what to do when the pope becomes incapacitated and someone else would have to make that decision for him. So I'd have to say, that's a big hole in the law of the Catholic Church. It is not quite clear to anyone what would happen in that set of circumstances.
On the other hand, again, we have to stress we're not there yet, at least according to official Vatican communiques. As of 12:30 this afternoon, at least, John Paul remained conscious in making decisions for himself.
COSTELLO: A final question, because this is such an emotional issue for so many people. Some might say it would be better for the Vatican to start preparing people for the pope's death instead of striking an overly optimistic tone. ALLEN: Well, personally, I think in the statement that we got from Dr. Navarro-Valls today, if you know the language of the Catholic Church, there were clear indication there's that this situation is extremely, extremely dangerous. I mean, for one thing, we were told the pope this afternoon was involved in spiritual meditations on the way of the cross. That, of course, is the Catholic devotion that recalls the steps of Christ on the way to his own death, clearly invoking images of preparation for death, and that the pope is also meditating on scripture, which is another thing that someone preparing for what, in Catholic vocabulary, is called a good death would be doing. And so I don't think there was much attempt to hide the gravity of the situation.
But I think what the Vatican is trying to do, of course, is keep alive that ray of hope. You know, bear in mind, this is an institution that believes in miracles. And obviously, many of the people around here would be hoping that there's one more in store here. As you say, it's hard to see the evidence of it right now, but faith is the substance of things hoped for and not seen.
COSTELLO: John Allen, live in Rome this morning, thank you.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: A reminder over the weekend. Time of the year again when the clocks spring forward an hour. Set your clocks ahead Saturday night. You'll going to lose an hour of sleep going into Sunday. So you've been warned, Daylight Savings.
COSTELLO: That means summer is not far way, so that's OK by me.
HEMMER: So true.
COSTELLO: More on the breaking news out of Rome in just a moment. Pope John Paul II said to be in very grave condition this morning. We'll have the latest developments straight ahead.
HEMMER: Also, our other story of the morning, a day after Terri Schiavo's death, the bitterness surrounding her final hours may not be over. That's ahead, too, after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Live pictures from Vatican City now. And we do know from the Vatican official words about 90 minutes ago. The pope is said to be in a, quote, "grave condition" at this hour. He has not left the Vatican, has not gone back to Gemelli Hospital, but the 84- year-old pontiff taking a turn for the worse overnight, and certainly this is our top story throughout the morning, a very close eye on Vatican City and developments throughout our programs here on a Friday morning -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Absolutely.
In other news this morning, an autopsy is being performed on Terri Schiavo. The results are expected in a few weeks. The severely brain-damaged woman died Thursday at the age of 41. But even her death has not stopped a bitter battle between her family members.
CNN's Bob Franken live from the medical examiner's office in Largo, Florida this morning.
Good morning, Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.
And that's exactly right. The raw emotions that accompanied the fight over Terri Schiavo's life and death continue even after that struggle is over.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice-over): The end of Terri Schiavo's life did nothing to end the intensely bitter fight. Now, the immediate family wants the emotions to subside.
SUZANNE VITADAMO, TERRI SCHIAVO'S SISTER: Threatening words dishonor our family, our faith, and our sister Terri. We would ask that all those who support our family be completely kind in their words and deeds toward others.
FRANKEN: The blood relatives were not in the room when Terri Schiavo died. They are blood feud extended to her last moments, and beyond. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, hearing that the Schindlers were arguing with police in the room about being ordered to leave, insisted that they could not be there.
GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTY.: Mr. Schiavo made the decision that that was not appropriate under the circumstances.
FRANKEN: Left behind, bitter feelings and a remarkable public outpouring not only here at the hospice, but at the highest levels of government.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRES. OF THE UNITED STATES: I appreciate the example of grace and dignity they have displayed at a difficult time.
FRANKEN: A remarkable time marked by a highly unusual Palm Sunday session of Congress, to oppose one more federal court review of the case, even after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube had been disconnected. But the federal court said there was no legal way the judges could order the tube reconnected, nor would the justices of the Supreme Court, nor at the state level were the top officials able, they insisted, to intercede.
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: There are a lot of really dedicated people who worked really hard to protect Terri Schiavo in this office. And in the end, there were limitations on what we could do.
FRANKEN: Limitations that all the prayers, civil disobedience and high-level efforts were never able to overcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: A frequently asked question, will there be any form of reconciliation. Carol, the sad answer is, certainly not yet -- Carol.
COSTELLO: There was somewhat of an altercation inside the hospice at the very moment that Terri Schiavo died, Bob. Can you tell us more about that?
FRANKEN: Well, according to Michael Schiavo's attorney, Bobby Schiavo, who by the way, denies this, was in the room. Bobby Schiavo -- Bobby Schindler, excuse me, who is Terri Schiavo's brother, was in there, and when he was asked to leave the room, because they wanted to do an assessment on Terri Schiavo's condition, according to the other people on the other side, he got into a dispute.
Now, Bobby Schindler says this is not so. People who know him well say this is just not the way that he operates.
So, as I said, this dispute continues with contradictory versions of events on both sides.
COSTELLO: You have to wonder with the funeral, too. What's that going to be like?
FRANKEN: Well, there are going to be funerals, plural, apparently. First of all, once they're through with the autopsy here, the remains will be turned over to Michael Schiavo. He again maintains control. His plan is to have the body cremated and flown to Bucks County, Pennsylvania for burial there. The family here will have its own memorial service, because they vehemently disagree that it should be handled that way.
COSTELLO: Bob Franken, live in Florida this morning. Thank you.
HEMMER: John Centonze is the brother of Michael Schiavo's fiance, Jody (ph). He was with CNN's David Mattingly on Thursday when he received the news Terri had died.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN CENTONZE, BROTHER OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S FIANCE: All right, man. All right. Bye. Everybody's crying.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What did she say?
CENTONZE: She's crying. So she got the call from Mike. And told her, and she just broke down crying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: John and his wife, Gloria Centonze, are with me now this morning in Florida. And, John, I want to begin with you this morning. When did you last speak with Michael?
CENTONZE: Yesterday.
HEMMER: Yes, how was he doing then?
CENTONZE: Very emotional. Tired. HEMMER: Did you ask him why he made the decision to be with Terri by himself in that room?
CENTONZE: I didn't hear the last part that you said.
HEMMER: Did you ask him why he made the decision to be alone with Terri in the room and not with the Schindler family?
CENTONZE: From what I understand, Bobby and them had to leave the room so hospice could do an assessment. During the time they were doing the assessment, they realized that it was going to happen very quickly. And you have just a matter of seconds. Mike just got right to the room. There was no time to say anything to anybody else, to talk about anything. It was just a split second that he had to be there.
HEMMER: John, were you aware of the confrontation that apparently took place?
CENTONZE: I heard about it. But, you know, I wasn't there.
HEMMER: Have you been a able to sort through the truth on that?
CENTONZE: From what I understand, when they were asked -- when Bobby and his sister were asked to leave the room, he got upset and thought he should be able to stay there, even though they were doing an assessment. So that's when the police officer told him that he need to do leave, and I guess that's not what he wanted to do.
HEMMER: What does that suggest to you, in Terri's final moments, that the two families were still at each other?
CENTONZE: It's just a lot of stress, and I don't know, when you're in that situation, I guess it's very hard to (INAUDIBLE) coherent to everything going on around you. Things just get to be a blur after a while.
HEMMER: Is there any chance they can reconcile?
CENTONZE: I just think there's been too much damage done, too many toes stepped on, too many hearts broken.
HEMMER: I'm also wondering if it's too early to start thinking about that consideration. Have you thought about it?
CENTONZE: Probably nothing would happen anytime in the near future, I wouldn't think.
HEMMER: Gloria, if I could for a moment, take us back a decade. I understand you were one of the first nurses to treat Terri Schiavo in that hospice. How was she doing 10 years ago, as compared to how we saw her about three years ago on videotape?
GLORIA CENTONZE, FRIEND OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO: I actually met Terri in '91, when she was first admitted to a nursing home, and I worked 11:00 to 7:00 as a nursing assistant, and I actually was her caregiver for quite some time. And I didn't know Michael really well at that point until I went on the day shift. And that's when I got to know Michael and Terri really well. I spent a lot of time with them.
As her caregiver back then, and then I saw her fairly recently, I wouldn't say much of her condition had changed, probably some loss of body mass, you know maybe, the contractures (ph) her awareness, hadn't seemed any different to me at all.
HEMMER: Back to the issue of Michael, John. You've heard a lot of things about what people have said about your brother-in-law. How have you responded when you hear the claims, some people calling him a murderer through all this. How have you reacted to the words?
CENTONZE: I think the whole thing has just been a lot of publicity from the other side just to try to get things into their favor. Michael is nothing like, you know, they're reporting. He's not controlling, he's demanding; he's a very passionate and a very giving person. He cared for my mother when she passed away. You know, unfortunately, things worked out the way they did, and you know, I feel sorry for Terri, because if he took care of her like he did my sister, you know, she unfortunately missed out on a probably really good life.
HEMMER: Would you expect your sister and Michael to get married?
CENTONZE: To tell you the truth, they never really talked about it. It's nothing that's ever been brought up. The whole issue is, you know, Mike taking care of Terri, and you know, I can't remember a time that we ever sat down and said, well, this is our plans, this is what we're going to do; it just wasn't important.
HEMMER: So you're saying there's no date set so far as you know?
CENTONZE: No date set at all.
HEMMER: John Centonze, his wife, Gloria, thank you for your time this morning.
A bit later this hour, we'll talk to Father Frank Pavone, the spiritual adviser to Terri Schiavo's parents and the Schindlers -- Carol.
COSTELLO: And back now to this morning's breaking news, Pope John Paul II said to be in very serious condition this morning, his health taking a dramatic turn for the worse. The latest next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: As we've been telling you this morning, Pope John Paul II is in very grave condition today. He will remain at the Vatican, where he's said to be lucid and conscious, but the Vatican says his condition very, very serious. In fact, his spokesman had tears in his eyes this morning. So all indications do point that he is fighting for his life. Of course we'll continue to follow the pope's condition throughout the morning, throughout the day here on CNN. HEMMER: That's out top story.
And Jack Cafferty is with us, too, Question of the Day.
Good morning.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Bill.
Terri Schiavo's life is over, but the national moral debate she triggered is far from done. Her life and eventual death pitted Congress and the White House against federal and state courts, and prompted Representative Tom Delay to thinly veil a threat of retribution against the judges who refused to intercede on Miss Schiavo's behalf. Some states are already considering adopting more restrictive end-of=life measures. Vermont's looking at a bill that would allow physician-assisted suicide. And with continued advances in medical technology and longer lifespans, Americans will be increasingly faced with end-of-life decisions.
The question is this, this morning, how will history look at the Terri Schiavo story? The address is am@CNN.com.
HEMMER: Something to consider, too. Thank you, Jack.
Breaking news from the Vatican this morning. A severe setback for the pope, now said to be in very grave condition. Live to Rome for the latest, after the break here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired April 1, 2005 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: The world is watching the Vatican this morning. Pope John Paul II fighting for his life. His health taking a serious turn for the worse overnight.
The latest word from Rome and the prayers from around the world as the pope faces the most serious health crisis of his life. That story is our top story on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING, with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: And good morning, everybody. On this Friday morning, I'm Bill Hemmer. Soledad is off today.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Carol Costello. Good morning to you.
HEMMER: We have a lot of information right now coming out of the Vatican on this huge moment for the Catholic Church and people around the world. Hundreds of millions concerned about the pope's condition. Here is what we know at this hour. The Vatican gave its latest update on the pope's condition about 90 minutes ago, saying the pope is conscious and is serene, but he's described as being in very serious condition. His blood pressure is unstable. The pope said to be suffering from septic shock, which is low blood flow due to an overwhelming infection in his organs. And Thursday night, the pope received the Catholic Church's sacrament of the sick, formerly called last rites.
And for the latest, we want to get to the Vatican City in Rome, where Jim Bittermann is monitoring the latest for us today. And, Jim, very candid comments from the Vatican earlier today. How much does that indicate to you the current condition and the seriousness of it for the pope.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think it's getting very serious indeed, Bill, because I think we're getting more information now as the Vatican realizes, there's really no point in putting any kind of spin on this. The pope is clearly in the stages of -- last stages of his life.
One of the things that's happened is there's been a cascade of medical problems in the last 12 to 18 hours, starting with the urinary-tract infection, then leading to septic shock, and that led to heart failure, and that's when this unstable blood pressure that Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the spokesman, talked about just a short while ago. Navarro-Valls, who is a doctor himself, has been with the pope for 26 years, in a kind of a personal note, he said I've never seen the pope in this condition in all the time i've spent with him. And he also said in a rather ominous way, that the press office is going to remain open 24 hours a day. That, to my recollection, I've been covering the Vatican for 26 years, to my recollection, that has never happened before. That they would keep the press office open indicates to me that they feel there will be something significant to announce in a very short time.
HEMMER: Jim, at what point will the Vatican speak more publicly about his condition? Is there a scheduled update from this point forward?
BITTERMANN: Well, in fact, yes. We are just hearing now that there could be another medical bulletin very shortly. We don't know what that means. And it is just a rumor that's circulating over at the Vatican press room, but it's possible we may get an update on the papal condition, an I would say that would indicate things are pretty serious, too, because normally, as you know, they're very sparse with the information when things are going well. So I think that if they're going to update something that was only updated an hour and a half ago, things may be changing fast -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim Bittermann, thanks for that, from Rome.
Let's talk about the medical condition for the pope now, to Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, good morning to you down at the CNN Center. How concerned are you about the symptoms you're hearing about him at this point?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Very concerned, Bill. And certainly we've been following the pope, his medical story along for a couple of months now. Over the past day, when you first heard about the high fevers, I first thought this was going to be a pneumonia, subsequently heard that it was a urinary-tract infection. Yesterday, they mentioned he had one episode of low-blood pressure. That raised our antennas to the fact this may have spread from his urinary tract to his bloodstream as well. This is the septic shock that people are talking about. You've seen the statement, Bill. It describes the pope as being lucid, as being conscious, but also having some changes in his blood pressure. All those things are not entirely consistent. What happens, Bill, with septic shock is that you get low blood flow to the organs, including the brain. So while someone might be conscious, lucid might be a little bit of an over-description.
Again, Bill, since February 1st, he's been out of the hospital with a breathing tube, with a feeding tube, now these high fevers. Very concerned -- Bill.
HEMMER: Take us back two months. It's April 1 now, you mentioned the first of February. Put in perspective, Sanjay, his health condition and what he has endured for the past 60 days.
GUPTA: You know, he was admitted to the hospital on February 1st for ten days. Subsequently, just less than two weeks after that, he received a breathing tube, and then the feeding tube. You can see the sort of sequence of events there, most recently now, the high fevers, the urinary-tract infection. I think we can safely add septic shock to this now over the last couple days.
I don't think he ever fully recovered, Bill, to put this in perspective from his first illness on February 1st. You know, he never really seemed to bounce back from that. He seemed like he had a significant infection. Obviously, in the hospital for 10 days at that point, probably never fully recovered. Add to that the operation he had, then the lack of calories, requiring the feeding tube, the high fever. It's sort of a cascade of events if you will -- Bill.
HEMMER: Let's try and define some of the medical terms again and take it precisely. Septic shock -- what happens in the body?
GUPTA: Septic shock basically means an overwhelming infection. It just means a systemic or body-wide infection. What happens is that the body responds, the blood pressure drops. The heart rate often goes up. As a result of the blood pressure being low, all the organs, the kidneys, the liver, and the brain as well don't get enough blood flow. That's obviously concerning. And this is where this whole notion of, is he lucid, is he not lucid? If you're not getting enough blood flow to the brain, typically, you are sleepy, you are very lethargic, unable to conduct your daily activities. Also, the kidneys they're not getting enough blood flow, so they may start to not work as well.
HEMMER: We know he has an enormous team of doctors at his side in the Vatican, Sanjay, but how much of his medical condition would be a surprise to doctors, knowing that they're treating him minute by minute?
GUPTA: I really don't think probably much of this is a surprise in the sense that once he developed the infection and developed the sepsis, or septic shock, it's a very predictable sort of pattern of events, which is why I can sort of talk the way I am about his status likely is. Obviously I have not examined the pope. I'm hearing the same reports you are. This is not surprising. Does not sound like he responded well to the antibiotics. Sounds like despite the antibiotics, this infection was spreading beyond his bladder to the rest of his bloodstream -- Bill.
HEMMER: Don't go far. Sanjay Gupta there at the CNN Center.
Here's Carol.
COSTELLO: Although the Vatican is saying publicly the pope is lucid, fully conscious, they also say his blood pressure is unstable, and his condition is very, very serious. But they're saying the pope is still able to participate in something like mass. But are they saying something different behind the scenes at the Vatican? we've seen the pope struggling in the past few days, unable to speak at his appearances at the window.
CNN's Vatican analyst John Allen is in Rome. He joins us live now. Good morning.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Carol.
COSTELLO: John, the Vatican is still painting an optimistic portrait here. They're saying he's met with cardinals, he's participated in a mass, but what is going on behind the scenes?
ALLEN: Well, I think the first note to be struck here is that, obviously, there was a sort of tone of optimism in the statement we got from the Vatican spokesperson, Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, one and a half hours ago. But if you read carefully between the lines of that statement, there was a clear acknowledgment of the extreme gravity of the situation Pope John Paul II is confronting. I think one thing extraordinary is that Dr. Navarro-Valls actually teared up during that press conference, and he's a man I've watched over a long period of time. He's normally a very cool customer, and the fact that he was at one point overcome with emotion I think is terribly significant.
The other point, is that he announced that the Holy Sea (ph) press office would actually be open all night tonight. That's an extraordinary step in itself. It normally closes at 3:00 in the afternoon. And obviously, a clear recognition that something dramatic could happen.
At the same time, it's important that we not get ahead of ourselves. As you indicated, Dr. Navarro-Valls told us the pope is still conscious, participated in mass this morning, has met with some of his aides, and is now involved in prayer. So he's aware of the gravity of the situation, but obviously there still remains a kind of undercurrent hope that this man, who has surmounted so many obstacles in the past may have one more miracle in store.
COSTELLO: But in listening to Dr. Sanjay Gupta just moments ago, John, it's difficult to believe the pope was really able to run the church. At what stage does he become incapacitated in the Vatican's eyes?
ALLEN: Well, you know, the truth, Carol, is that under the Vatican system, there noise such thing as a vice pope. Whoever is pope is pope until the moment of his death. And then there is no provision in church law for the pope transferring his authority to someone else, or what to do when the pope becomes incapacitated and someone else would have to make that decision for him. So I'd have to say, that's a big hole in the law of the Catholic Church. It is not quite clear to anyone what would happen in that set of circumstances.
On the other hand, again, we have to stress we're not there yet, at least according to official Vatican communiques. As of 12:30 this afternoon, at least, John Paul remained conscious in making decisions for himself.
COSTELLO: A final question, because this is such an emotional issue for so many people. Some might say it would be better for the Vatican to start preparing people for the pope's death instead of striking an overly optimistic tone. ALLEN: Well, personally, I think in the statement that we got from Dr. Navarro-Valls today, if you know the language of the Catholic Church, there were clear indication there's that this situation is extremely, extremely dangerous. I mean, for one thing, we were told the pope this afternoon was involved in spiritual meditations on the way of the cross. That, of course, is the Catholic devotion that recalls the steps of Christ on the way to his own death, clearly invoking images of preparation for death, and that the pope is also meditating on scripture, which is another thing that someone preparing for what, in Catholic vocabulary, is called a good death would be doing. And so I don't think there was much attempt to hide the gravity of the situation.
But I think what the Vatican is trying to do, of course, is keep alive that ray of hope. You know, bear in mind, this is an institution that believes in miracles. And obviously, many of the people around here would be hoping that there's one more in store here. As you say, it's hard to see the evidence of it right now, but faith is the substance of things hoped for and not seen.
COSTELLO: John Allen, live in Rome this morning, thank you.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: A reminder over the weekend. Time of the year again when the clocks spring forward an hour. Set your clocks ahead Saturday night. You'll going to lose an hour of sleep going into Sunday. So you've been warned, Daylight Savings.
COSTELLO: That means summer is not far way, so that's OK by me.
HEMMER: So true.
COSTELLO: More on the breaking news out of Rome in just a moment. Pope John Paul II said to be in very grave condition this morning. We'll have the latest developments straight ahead.
HEMMER: Also, our other story of the morning, a day after Terri Schiavo's death, the bitterness surrounding her final hours may not be over. That's ahead, too, after this.
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HEMMER: Live pictures from Vatican City now. And we do know from the Vatican official words about 90 minutes ago. The pope is said to be in a, quote, "grave condition" at this hour. He has not left the Vatican, has not gone back to Gemelli Hospital, but the 84- year-old pontiff taking a turn for the worse overnight, and certainly this is our top story throughout the morning, a very close eye on Vatican City and developments throughout our programs here on a Friday morning -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Absolutely.
In other news this morning, an autopsy is being performed on Terri Schiavo. The results are expected in a few weeks. The severely brain-damaged woman died Thursday at the age of 41. But even her death has not stopped a bitter battle between her family members.
CNN's Bob Franken live from the medical examiner's office in Largo, Florida this morning.
Good morning, Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.
And that's exactly right. The raw emotions that accompanied the fight over Terri Schiavo's life and death continue even after that struggle is over.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice-over): The end of Terri Schiavo's life did nothing to end the intensely bitter fight. Now, the immediate family wants the emotions to subside.
SUZANNE VITADAMO, TERRI SCHIAVO'S SISTER: Threatening words dishonor our family, our faith, and our sister Terri. We would ask that all those who support our family be completely kind in their words and deeds toward others.
FRANKEN: The blood relatives were not in the room when Terri Schiavo died. They are blood feud extended to her last moments, and beyond. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, hearing that the Schindlers were arguing with police in the room about being ordered to leave, insisted that they could not be there.
GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTY.: Mr. Schiavo made the decision that that was not appropriate under the circumstances.
FRANKEN: Left behind, bitter feelings and a remarkable public outpouring not only here at the hospice, but at the highest levels of government.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRES. OF THE UNITED STATES: I appreciate the example of grace and dignity they have displayed at a difficult time.
FRANKEN: A remarkable time marked by a highly unusual Palm Sunday session of Congress, to oppose one more federal court review of the case, even after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube had been disconnected. But the federal court said there was no legal way the judges could order the tube reconnected, nor would the justices of the Supreme Court, nor at the state level were the top officials able, they insisted, to intercede.
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: There are a lot of really dedicated people who worked really hard to protect Terri Schiavo in this office. And in the end, there were limitations on what we could do.
FRANKEN: Limitations that all the prayers, civil disobedience and high-level efforts were never able to overcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN: A frequently asked question, will there be any form of reconciliation. Carol, the sad answer is, certainly not yet -- Carol.
COSTELLO: There was somewhat of an altercation inside the hospice at the very moment that Terri Schiavo died, Bob. Can you tell us more about that?
FRANKEN: Well, according to Michael Schiavo's attorney, Bobby Schiavo, who by the way, denies this, was in the room. Bobby Schiavo -- Bobby Schindler, excuse me, who is Terri Schiavo's brother, was in there, and when he was asked to leave the room, because they wanted to do an assessment on Terri Schiavo's condition, according to the other people on the other side, he got into a dispute.
Now, Bobby Schindler says this is not so. People who know him well say this is just not the way that he operates.
So, as I said, this dispute continues with contradictory versions of events on both sides.
COSTELLO: You have to wonder with the funeral, too. What's that going to be like?
FRANKEN: Well, there are going to be funerals, plural, apparently. First of all, once they're through with the autopsy here, the remains will be turned over to Michael Schiavo. He again maintains control. His plan is to have the body cremated and flown to Bucks County, Pennsylvania for burial there. The family here will have its own memorial service, because they vehemently disagree that it should be handled that way.
COSTELLO: Bob Franken, live in Florida this morning. Thank you.
HEMMER: John Centonze is the brother of Michael Schiavo's fiance, Jody (ph). He was with CNN's David Mattingly on Thursday when he received the news Terri had died.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN CENTONZE, BROTHER OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S FIANCE: All right, man. All right. Bye. Everybody's crying.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What did she say?
CENTONZE: She's crying. So she got the call from Mike. And told her, and she just broke down crying.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HEMMER: John and his wife, Gloria Centonze, are with me now this morning in Florida. And, John, I want to begin with you this morning. When did you last speak with Michael?
CENTONZE: Yesterday.
HEMMER: Yes, how was he doing then?
CENTONZE: Very emotional. Tired. HEMMER: Did you ask him why he made the decision to be with Terri by himself in that room?
CENTONZE: I didn't hear the last part that you said.
HEMMER: Did you ask him why he made the decision to be alone with Terri in the room and not with the Schindler family?
CENTONZE: From what I understand, Bobby and them had to leave the room so hospice could do an assessment. During the time they were doing the assessment, they realized that it was going to happen very quickly. And you have just a matter of seconds. Mike just got right to the room. There was no time to say anything to anybody else, to talk about anything. It was just a split second that he had to be there.
HEMMER: John, were you aware of the confrontation that apparently took place?
CENTONZE: I heard about it. But, you know, I wasn't there.
HEMMER: Have you been a able to sort through the truth on that?
CENTONZE: From what I understand, when they were asked -- when Bobby and his sister were asked to leave the room, he got upset and thought he should be able to stay there, even though they were doing an assessment. So that's when the police officer told him that he need to do leave, and I guess that's not what he wanted to do.
HEMMER: What does that suggest to you, in Terri's final moments, that the two families were still at each other?
CENTONZE: It's just a lot of stress, and I don't know, when you're in that situation, I guess it's very hard to (INAUDIBLE) coherent to everything going on around you. Things just get to be a blur after a while.
HEMMER: Is there any chance they can reconcile?
CENTONZE: I just think there's been too much damage done, too many toes stepped on, too many hearts broken.
HEMMER: I'm also wondering if it's too early to start thinking about that consideration. Have you thought about it?
CENTONZE: Probably nothing would happen anytime in the near future, I wouldn't think.
HEMMER: Gloria, if I could for a moment, take us back a decade. I understand you were one of the first nurses to treat Terri Schiavo in that hospice. How was she doing 10 years ago, as compared to how we saw her about three years ago on videotape?
GLORIA CENTONZE, FRIEND OF MICHAEL SCHIAVO: I actually met Terri in '91, when she was first admitted to a nursing home, and I worked 11:00 to 7:00 as a nursing assistant, and I actually was her caregiver for quite some time. And I didn't know Michael really well at that point until I went on the day shift. And that's when I got to know Michael and Terri really well. I spent a lot of time with them.
As her caregiver back then, and then I saw her fairly recently, I wouldn't say much of her condition had changed, probably some loss of body mass, you know maybe, the contractures (ph) her awareness, hadn't seemed any different to me at all.
HEMMER: Back to the issue of Michael, John. You've heard a lot of things about what people have said about your brother-in-law. How have you responded when you hear the claims, some people calling him a murderer through all this. How have you reacted to the words?
CENTONZE: I think the whole thing has just been a lot of publicity from the other side just to try to get things into their favor. Michael is nothing like, you know, they're reporting. He's not controlling, he's demanding; he's a very passionate and a very giving person. He cared for my mother when she passed away. You know, unfortunately, things worked out the way they did, and you know, I feel sorry for Terri, because if he took care of her like he did my sister, you know, she unfortunately missed out on a probably really good life.
HEMMER: Would you expect your sister and Michael to get married?
CENTONZE: To tell you the truth, they never really talked about it. It's nothing that's ever been brought up. The whole issue is, you know, Mike taking care of Terri, and you know, I can't remember a time that we ever sat down and said, well, this is our plans, this is what we're going to do; it just wasn't important.
HEMMER: So you're saying there's no date set so far as you know?
CENTONZE: No date set at all.
HEMMER: John Centonze, his wife, Gloria, thank you for your time this morning.
A bit later this hour, we'll talk to Father Frank Pavone, the spiritual adviser to Terri Schiavo's parents and the Schindlers -- Carol.
COSTELLO: And back now to this morning's breaking news, Pope John Paul II said to be in very serious condition this morning, his health taking a dramatic turn for the worse. The latest next on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: As we've been telling you this morning, Pope John Paul II is in very grave condition today. He will remain at the Vatican, where he's said to be lucid and conscious, but the Vatican says his condition very, very serious. In fact, his spokesman had tears in his eyes this morning. So all indications do point that he is fighting for his life. Of course we'll continue to follow the pope's condition throughout the morning, throughout the day here on CNN. HEMMER: That's out top story.
And Jack Cafferty is with us, too, Question of the Day.
Good morning.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, Bill.
Terri Schiavo's life is over, but the national moral debate she triggered is far from done. Her life and eventual death pitted Congress and the White House against federal and state courts, and prompted Representative Tom Delay to thinly veil a threat of retribution against the judges who refused to intercede on Miss Schiavo's behalf. Some states are already considering adopting more restrictive end-of=life measures. Vermont's looking at a bill that would allow physician-assisted suicide. And with continued advances in medical technology and longer lifespans, Americans will be increasingly faced with end-of-life decisions.
The question is this, this morning, how will history look at the Terri Schiavo story? The address is am@CNN.com.
HEMMER: Something to consider, too. Thank you, Jack.
Breaking news from the Vatican this morning. A severe setback for the pope, now said to be in very grave condition. Live to Rome for the latest, after the break here.
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