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Pope in Grave Condition; Political Aftermath of Terri Schiavo's Death

Aired April 01, 2005 - 9:31   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It is 9:31 here in New York City. It is 4:31 local time in Rome, Italy. Welcome back to our continuing coverage here on AMERICAN MORNING. I'm Bill Hemmer.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Carol Costello in for Soledad this morning. Let's get back right back to the health crisis facing the pope. The pope is said to be suffering from unstable blood pressure, a condition related to an overwhelming infection. The Vatican describing him as being in very serious condition and surrounded by a team of doctors at the papal residence. Also, the pope is said to be conscious, he's lucid. He asked earlier for an aide to read to him from the bible.

Let's head straight to Rome now for more. Jim Bittermann standing by with the latest. Jim, any further word at all?

JIM BITTERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a couple things. One of them quite odd that's occurred just in the last few minutes here, Carol. And that is that the papal press office has issued a list of bishops who have been named by the pope. Now in the Catholic Church, only the pope can make bishops -- can take a priest and turn him into a bishop. And the idea that he has issued this list, I think, indicates that the press office at least wants to indicate that the work of the church is still going on because it isn't clear at all from this list when the bishops were made and exactly how they -- what circumstances the pope would have had to sign off on this list of bishops.

It's also clear from the medical bulletins that we've been hearing during the day that he seems to be in awfully serious condition and doubtful that he would even be able to sign any kind of a document. But the press office issuing this list, I think, primarily to show that the work of the church is going on.

Now, the other thing that we've heard is about two and half hours from now, at the pope's second church in Rome after St. Peter's, St. John in Lateran, the cardinal vicar of Rome, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, who is the man who is charged with the responsibility of announcing the pope's death, he's going to hold a mass in this church this afternoon, especially for the pope. He's asked all Italians and all Catholics around the world to pray for the health of the pope -- Carol.

COSTELLO: So conflicting signs coming from the Vatican, Jim. I guess this isn't so unusual? We have lost Jim Bittermann right now. We'll get back to him later. Taking a live look at the Vatican right now. The pope is in his residence there. He did not want to go back to the hospital, and as we've been telling, he's in very grave condition. We'll get back to Jim when we get him.

HEMMER: You know, Carol, the Vatican has released a surprising number of details. This is an organization that is often very stingy with details, but it's still not easy to draw a clear picture of what's going on inside the pope's apartment overlooking St. Peter's Square.

We talked with Peter Moynihan earlier today. He's the editor -- Robert Moynihan, I apologize, Robert. Editor-in-chief of "Inside the Vatican." He's back with us in Washington. You have the phone, apparently, with Vatican officials and others in Italy. What are you hearing, Robert?

ROBERT MOYNIHAN, EDITOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN": A very serious situation. One man just said to me about five minutes ago, it's a matter of hours.

HEMMER: Is there more detail that supports the possibility that if it is just a matter of hours, what's happening around Vatican City at this point, then?

MOYNIHAN: More police cars than usual in Viadelli Concilliastioni (ph) in front of the square. Of course, people are gathered there, as you see, on the image in the square, waiting perhaps for an announcement. The palace in the center is called the Apostolic Palace and it's the top floor, the top two right rooms. The one on the end is the pope's bedroom and the one next to it is a study. And probably behind there, in some room set up to be set up to be medically assisting him, that's probably where he is right now.

It is still possible that with antibiotics, he could get the infection under control. There is no certainty that we are in the last hours. But a lot of people in Rome feel that this is a very serious crisis. And the idea that the press office, which has never been kept open all night long, is going to be kept open all night tonight -- so at midnight or one in the morning, it would still be open, suggests that they -- the doctors around the pope have said there may be a need for an announcement, even in the middle of the night.

HEMMER: Based on your conversations and listening to your answers carefully here, was any sense of optimism you drew from these phone calls?

MOYNIHAN: I would say there's still a chance. They are administering antibiotics. But he's very weak. And I think the fact -- John Allen mentioned earlier, the idea of a good death. The pope is meditating, thinking over his life, things that he did and didn't do. And he's trying to go consciously. His mind still fairly clear, despite what doctors may feel. I think his mind is still clear. I think he's preparing himself to depart.

HEMMER: Robert, what do we look for? There's this bronze door that tradition dictates will close when the pope dies and it's guarded by the Swiss guards, who are assigned the detail there throughout Vatican City. Is that what you look at at this point or is there -- are there other signs that you would observe throughout the Vatican?

MOYNIHAN: Well, that's the tradition, that -- in this picture, it's right in the center, in the back of that picture, behind the columns there are two large bronze doors, Portoni de Bronzo (ph). And that's -- one of those doors would close and the other would remain open.

And that would happen when they get word that the pope has breathed his last and they would tell the Swiss guards to close one of the doors. I don't think there would be another sign, except the other things we've mentioned. The extremely heightened press coverage. Not just CNN, all the newspapers and radio and TV in the world.

HEMMER: Robert, does he have family that would be at the Vatican with him now?

MOYNIHAN: He doesn't have close direct family members, no. His mother died when he was a young boy. He was very close to his father, but his father died at the time of the second world war. He had a brother who died, I think in 1932, his older brother. And that devastated him. Those are his immediate family.

HEMMER: We are watching him lately almost as a picture of suffering publicly, especially at the window on Wednesday, when he came out on Wednesday afternoon. But here's the video now from two days ago. And almost groaning in what appeared to be a somewhat painful, too, appearance, trying to speak at that moment.

I guess, Robert, what I also reflect on over the past 26 years in the time he has been pontiff in Vatican City, is here is a man who came into this position absolutely determined to make a difference on this planet. And if you think back about the videotape that we can watch from 20 years ago, here is a man of enormous strength from strong Eastern European stock, growing up in southern Poland, who came to this job to make a difference. And when you reflect on the difference he made, what tops the headline for you, Robert?

MOYNIHAN: Well, I would say there's three phases. The first phase is the 1980s. And it's hard for us to remember today, but we had the confrontation between the Soviet Union and America and purchasing missiles in Europe, the communist countries of Eastern Europe. You had to go through barb-wire checks. I went through into Eastern Europe in the '80s and they checked the trunk of my car.

And it was too -- Europe was divided into two parts. It was still the continuation of the second world war, the Cold War. And everyone in the Vatican in the '80s expected it would go on for centuries. Cardinal Casorolli (ph) once said 400 more years. And John Paul said, no. The wall will come down. So that was the first great thing. And he worked and labored and spoke.

They said the great moment of his pontificate at the beginning was when he went to Poland in 1979 and he said to the Poles, you are men. He essentially said, don't crawl on your bellies, stand up, have dignity. And they got hope from that.

Then the second phase was the '90s, as we kind of had the roaring '90s. And the pope kind of took more of a critical stance toward the West, toward -- even towards America. What he started to call the culture of death.

And then the last few years, he's been more mystical. The whole period from 2000 to today, the entering into the millennium, crossing the threshold of hope, has been kind of a long period where he's been weakening and showing in his life, as you pointed out, in his own body his suffering and trying to show that suffering and love are connected.

HEMMER: Robert, one more thought here while we have you. He had this draw, this attraction to children, and it was almost like when he walked into a room or where he traveled anywhere in the world -- and we mentioned many times, the most traveled pope in history, there were enormous crowds of children that came out to see this man, to take their blessing and to listen to him, and to listen to the expression and the character he had on his face.

MOYNIHAN: Yes.

HEMMER: What was it that drew him? what did he see in children that he thought was so critical and so important?

MOYNIHAN: Well, it was innocence, and hope, and trust and the fact they saw that in him as well. And I remember something that my wife once said to me. She was in Boston Commons when the pope came to visit in 1979 -- hello?

HEMMER: I can hear you, Robert. Keep going -- Boston Commons.

MOYNIHAN: Yes. And she saw this white figure off in the distance, and he seemed a figure of hope. He seemed to say that in spite of concentration camps, in spite of all sorts of horrors in this world, there is hope, people can act charitably toward one another, they can treat each other well, and He was a beacon of hope.

HEMMER: Robert Moynihan, editor-in-chief of "Inside the Vatican" in Washington. Thank you, Robert.

Let's gate break here. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Our top story all morning has been the failing health of pope John Paul II. You're taking a look at the papal apartment right now. This is where the pope's bedroom is, and behind it is the place where a hospital room is set up. The pope has chosen to stay in his papal apartments rather than going to the hospital, even though his condition is said to be very grave. We've had a last health checkup at 5:30 Eastern Time. We have had no word since then. And again, the pope is in very grave condition this morning. Details coming out of the Vatican do paint a picture of a man fighting for his life now -- Bill. HEMMER: Fifteen minutes now before the hour, Carol. The political issues now raised by the Terri Schiavo case will not end with her death.

Our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield is here to talk more about this. Jeff, nice to see you. Good morning to you. It has been 24 hours, but in so many ways, it's only been 24 hours. Are the political consequences, are they starting to set in at this point?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: I think they're becoming a little clearer. Among the most ardent supporters of keeping Terri Schiavo alive, the focus of anger has shifted clearly to the courts. The argument is that the Congress and the president reflecting the people's will, we get an argument on that based on the polls, but as the political branch of government wanted more efforts to keep her alive, the federal courts, like the Florida courts, of course said no.

James Dobson, who heads Focus on the Family, this is one of the most politically powerful socially conservative groups, very close to the Bush White House, on Wolf Blitzer yesterday said that, quote, "We all know the that the executive branch is checked by the legislative, and the legislative branch is checked by the executive branch, but neither of them check the courts. They're -- meaning the courts -- totally out of control. There is almost a feeling of futility when it comes to courts handing down decisions that contradict the will of the people.

And even more significantly, House majority leader Tom Delay, who has been on the forefront of this fight to keep Terri Schiavo alive, had to say yesterday. Just check these words out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: We will look at an arrogant, out of control, unaccountable judiciary that thumbed their nose at Congress and the president when given the jurisdiction to hear this case anew, and look at all the facts and make a determination, they chose not to participate, contrary to what Congress and the president asked them to do. We will look into that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GREENFIELD: Now, look into that. That could mean, Bill, anything from impeaching some of these judges, and Congress has the power to impeach federal judges, to try to use the power of the Congress has under the Constitution to define jurisdiction differently, maybe to say all these cases are going to be removed from state to federal courts under the following guidelines. We don't know what it means, but Tom Delay is not letting this fight go away.

HEMMER: You mentioned Delay in that clip right there, but as he's pointed out throughout the week here, there are conservatives who were not on board this from the very beginning.

GREENFIELD: Yes, this does cross right/left lines. We've already had a number of op-ed pieces and Web posting by conservatives, saying that Congress overreached in this case, and I think some of these conservatives would look at any attempt to federalize right-to- die cases as a misuse of federal government power. Conservatives tend to be very suspect about federal power.

And beyond that, I think there's an irony here. Conservatives over the years have done a very effective job of convincing a lot of Americans that you just can't trust the federal government with power. George Bush's slogan back in 2000 about Al Gore was, "He trusts Washington, I trust the people." And I think that's why the polling numbers show this distrust of Congress in this arena. Whether you're liberal or conservative, if you don't trust Washington to spend your money, do you trust it to decide whether you or your loved one should live or die? And that's a problem for conservatives.

HEMMER: Give us your hunch here or your sense about how long this lasts?

GREENFIELD: Hunch is a better word. My feeling is that among the most ardent supporters of Terri Schiavo being kept alive, this is going to be a galvanizing moment. Even though there's no election for a year and a half, I mean, I think it's ridiculous, frankly, to speculate about its impact on Jeb, or George, or any other individual. But I think that group, that is critical to the Republican party, is going to be much tougher on issues such as, who are you putting on the courts, on whether or not we'll accept a pro-choice candidate on the national ticket next time. I think it's going to stiffen those people's will a great deal. But at the same time, I think it's going to raise some questions among more moderate or liberal Republicans about whether we want that kind of philosophy controlling the party. So it could suggest -- it could tee up a political struggle.

HEMMER: And others may come in and suggest that memories are short.

GREENFIELD: I'm sorry?

HEMMER: That memories could be short, and if you're looking at 18 months down the road, I don't know how much of this is forgotten, and how much is not.

GREENFIELD: I agree. It's not like Elian Gonzalez, which happened in the spring of a presidential election year. It was fresh in the minds of Cuban-American voters in Florida, and it probably cost Al Gore the White House.

But you know, we sometimes make the mistake in the media of looking at everything with a short attention span. Memories may be short, but this is not a tax policy. This is some legislative -- this, for people who have these kinds of beliefs, is a life-and-death issue, where you don't get any stronger feelings than this, and I think they weigh it less.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jeff.

GREENFIELD: OK.

HEMMER: Here's Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Bill, back to the pope now, people around the world offering prayers for the pope this morning. They're already gathering in Australia, and also in Poland.

We're joined by CNN's Chris Huntington. He's at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York.

And, Chris, what does it look like there this morning?

CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, as you might expect, there is increased activity this morning. This is, in a sense, the symbolic seat of Catholicism here in the United States, the largest concentration of Catholics, of course, residing in New York City.

Cardinal Egan, Edward Cardinal Egan, gave a mass this morning. Now he presides over a daily mass. But today, as you might expect, the mass was tailored to John Paul II's situation. And Cardinal Egan drew comparisons between St. Peter and Pope John Paul. St. Peter, of course, if you know your Christian history, was really regarded as the first pope and struggled to bring the Christian church to life. And Cardinal Egan made that comparison to the struggles that Pope John Paul has undertaken his entire his life, particularly as a younger man standing up to Nazism and then the Soviet Union while the young man and young seminarian in Poland.

After Cardinal Egan's service, we had an opportunity to speak with him with a bunch of other reporters, and Cardinal Egan spoke very, candidly about the man with whom he'd worked closely in the Vatican for many, years. Here are some of Cardinal Egan's remarks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL EGAN, ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW YORK: Very good man. An easy man to work with. You know you're dealing with a man that wants accurate, quick, truthful answers. But he also was the kind of fellow that knows how to be kind and kid with you. And so you asked what my feelings are. Well, my feelings are feelings of one who has kind of lost a father. He named me a bishop, completely unexpectedly, that I would ever be -- I thought I was going to continue until 75 in Rome, and then he sent me to the capital of the world, and McGee, that's everything, isn't it? You can't have anything more than the capital of the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP>

HUNTINGTON: Now, Cardinal Egan also called John Paul II a hero for our times. There will be a special mass here at St. Patrick's Cathedral in the event of John Paul II's passing. And then Cardinal Egan will join the other cardinals for the conclave at the Vatican following that.

Carol.

COSTELLO: I was just curious if Cardinal Egan is in communication with the Vatican?

HUNTINGTON: Yes. We are told that indeed they are following the situation as closely as you can imagine. And being a cardinal, he certainly is well aware of the situation that is happening moment to moment there in the Vatican.

COSTELLO: Chris Huntington at St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City. Thank you. Our breaking news coverage continues in a moment. But in case you're just joining us, the Vatican says Pope John Paul II is now in very grave condition. The latest for you after a break. This is AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: We are continuing to follow the events in Rome, but we want to turn to business right now. Andy Serwer is here. How are investors reacting to today's jobs report?

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" COLUMNIST: Well, they're kind of pleased it appears, Carol. Stocks trading higher at this hour. We will see what's going on with the Dow Industrials in a second here -- up 60 points.

Jobs report for march came out at 8:30 eastern this morning. We added 110,000 jobs. That's far weaker than expected, far weaker. But the is that it allayed inflation fears, which had been vexing the markets over the past several weeks.

Another sad note in the world of business on this somber day: Frank Purdue, poultry magnate, has passed away this morning. He took a backyard egg business and turned it into one of the nation's largest food companies. And you may remember, he said, "It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken."

He branded the chicken business, which is a tough thing to do.

COSTELLO: I remember the commercials, don't you?

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Some of the great commercials ever on television.

COSTELLO: Yeah.

SERWER: Yes. Yeah.

CAFFERTY: Most memorable, certainly.

SERWER: And he was a good guy, and people liked him down there in Salisbury, Maryland. Frank Purdue was 84.

COSTELLO: Thank you, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome.

HEMMER: He had a full life at that age, too.

SERWER: Indeed.

HEMMER: Thank you. Back to the question of the day. Here's Jack.

CAFFERTY: Which is this, Bill: How will history look at the Terri Schiavo story?

Allen in Tennessee: "Nero fiddled while Rome burned. Congress, and its unwitting companion, the media, fiddled with this personal and private tragedy while our troop problems fail to be addressed."

Dean in New Jersey: "Some day, though not within our lifetimes, it will be possible to regenerate a seriously damaged cerebral cortex through the use of stem cells. When that day comes, people will look back on Terri Schiavo as an example of the medical deficiencies of the early 21st century.

And Ernie in New Brunswick writes: "History will view the Schiavo case as being the tipping point for the right-to-die movement. Terri will become the poster girl for physician-assisted death with dignity, and disgraceful circuses such as we have just witnessed will be a thing of the past.

COSTELLO: You can only hope so. But I don't know. I just don't know. In a case where emotion surrounds it, always becomes a circus.

CAFFERTY: Well, plus, I mean, without disgraceful circuses, we'd be out of business. I mean, that's what we live for.

COSTELLO: Now, but also disgraceful circuses can sometimes evoke change, in fairness.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.

In a moment here, get you back to Rome for the breaking news. Pope John Paul II has taken a dramatic turn for the worse. We're back in a moment with a special extended edition of AMERICAN MORNING, after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 1, 2005 - 9:31   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: It is 9:31 here in New York City. It is 4:31 local time in Rome, Italy. Welcome back to our continuing coverage here on AMERICAN MORNING. I'm Bill Hemmer.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Carol Costello in for Soledad this morning. Let's get back right back to the health crisis facing the pope. The pope is said to be suffering from unstable blood pressure, a condition related to an overwhelming infection. The Vatican describing him as being in very serious condition and surrounded by a team of doctors at the papal residence. Also, the pope is said to be conscious, he's lucid. He asked earlier for an aide to read to him from the bible.

Let's head straight to Rome now for more. Jim Bittermann standing by with the latest. Jim, any further word at all?

JIM BITTERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a couple things. One of them quite odd that's occurred just in the last few minutes here, Carol. And that is that the papal press office has issued a list of bishops who have been named by the pope. Now in the Catholic Church, only the pope can make bishops -- can take a priest and turn him into a bishop. And the idea that he has issued this list, I think, indicates that the press office at least wants to indicate that the work of the church is still going on because it isn't clear at all from this list when the bishops were made and exactly how they -- what circumstances the pope would have had to sign off on this list of bishops.

It's also clear from the medical bulletins that we've been hearing during the day that he seems to be in awfully serious condition and doubtful that he would even be able to sign any kind of a document. But the press office issuing this list, I think, primarily to show that the work of the church is going on.

Now, the other thing that we've heard is about two and half hours from now, at the pope's second church in Rome after St. Peter's, St. John in Lateran, the cardinal vicar of Rome, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, who is the man who is charged with the responsibility of announcing the pope's death, he's going to hold a mass in this church this afternoon, especially for the pope. He's asked all Italians and all Catholics around the world to pray for the health of the pope -- Carol.

COSTELLO: So conflicting signs coming from the Vatican, Jim. I guess this isn't so unusual? We have lost Jim Bittermann right now. We'll get back to him later. Taking a live look at the Vatican right now. The pope is in his residence there. He did not want to go back to the hospital, and as we've been telling, he's in very grave condition. We'll get back to Jim when we get him.

HEMMER: You know, Carol, the Vatican has released a surprising number of details. This is an organization that is often very stingy with details, but it's still not easy to draw a clear picture of what's going on inside the pope's apartment overlooking St. Peter's Square.

We talked with Peter Moynihan earlier today. He's the editor -- Robert Moynihan, I apologize, Robert. Editor-in-chief of "Inside the Vatican." He's back with us in Washington. You have the phone, apparently, with Vatican officials and others in Italy. What are you hearing, Robert?

ROBERT MOYNIHAN, EDITOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN": A very serious situation. One man just said to me about five minutes ago, it's a matter of hours.

HEMMER: Is there more detail that supports the possibility that if it is just a matter of hours, what's happening around Vatican City at this point, then?

MOYNIHAN: More police cars than usual in Viadelli Concilliastioni (ph) in front of the square. Of course, people are gathered there, as you see, on the image in the square, waiting perhaps for an announcement. The palace in the center is called the Apostolic Palace and it's the top floor, the top two right rooms. The one on the end is the pope's bedroom and the one next to it is a study. And probably behind there, in some room set up to be set up to be medically assisting him, that's probably where he is right now.

It is still possible that with antibiotics, he could get the infection under control. There is no certainty that we are in the last hours. But a lot of people in Rome feel that this is a very serious crisis. And the idea that the press office, which has never been kept open all night long, is going to be kept open all night tonight -- so at midnight or one in the morning, it would still be open, suggests that they -- the doctors around the pope have said there may be a need for an announcement, even in the middle of the night.

HEMMER: Based on your conversations and listening to your answers carefully here, was any sense of optimism you drew from these phone calls?

MOYNIHAN: I would say there's still a chance. They are administering antibiotics. But he's very weak. And I think the fact -- John Allen mentioned earlier, the idea of a good death. The pope is meditating, thinking over his life, things that he did and didn't do. And he's trying to go consciously. His mind still fairly clear, despite what doctors may feel. I think his mind is still clear. I think he's preparing himself to depart.

HEMMER: Robert, what do we look for? There's this bronze door that tradition dictates will close when the pope dies and it's guarded by the Swiss guards, who are assigned the detail there throughout Vatican City. Is that what you look at at this point or is there -- are there other signs that you would observe throughout the Vatican?

MOYNIHAN: Well, that's the tradition, that -- in this picture, it's right in the center, in the back of that picture, behind the columns there are two large bronze doors, Portoni de Bronzo (ph). And that's -- one of those doors would close and the other would remain open.

And that would happen when they get word that the pope has breathed his last and they would tell the Swiss guards to close one of the doors. I don't think there would be another sign, except the other things we've mentioned. The extremely heightened press coverage. Not just CNN, all the newspapers and radio and TV in the world.

HEMMER: Robert, does he have family that would be at the Vatican with him now?

MOYNIHAN: He doesn't have close direct family members, no. His mother died when he was a young boy. He was very close to his father, but his father died at the time of the second world war. He had a brother who died, I think in 1932, his older brother. And that devastated him. Those are his immediate family.

HEMMER: We are watching him lately almost as a picture of suffering publicly, especially at the window on Wednesday, when he came out on Wednesday afternoon. But here's the video now from two days ago. And almost groaning in what appeared to be a somewhat painful, too, appearance, trying to speak at that moment.

I guess, Robert, what I also reflect on over the past 26 years in the time he has been pontiff in Vatican City, is here is a man who came into this position absolutely determined to make a difference on this planet. And if you think back about the videotape that we can watch from 20 years ago, here is a man of enormous strength from strong Eastern European stock, growing up in southern Poland, who came to this job to make a difference. And when you reflect on the difference he made, what tops the headline for you, Robert?

MOYNIHAN: Well, I would say there's three phases. The first phase is the 1980s. And it's hard for us to remember today, but we had the confrontation between the Soviet Union and America and purchasing missiles in Europe, the communist countries of Eastern Europe. You had to go through barb-wire checks. I went through into Eastern Europe in the '80s and they checked the trunk of my car.

And it was too -- Europe was divided into two parts. It was still the continuation of the second world war, the Cold War. And everyone in the Vatican in the '80s expected it would go on for centuries. Cardinal Casorolli (ph) once said 400 more years. And John Paul said, no. The wall will come down. So that was the first great thing. And he worked and labored and spoke.

They said the great moment of his pontificate at the beginning was when he went to Poland in 1979 and he said to the Poles, you are men. He essentially said, don't crawl on your bellies, stand up, have dignity. And they got hope from that.

Then the second phase was the '90s, as we kind of had the roaring '90s. And the pope kind of took more of a critical stance toward the West, toward -- even towards America. What he started to call the culture of death.

And then the last few years, he's been more mystical. The whole period from 2000 to today, the entering into the millennium, crossing the threshold of hope, has been kind of a long period where he's been weakening and showing in his life, as you pointed out, in his own body his suffering and trying to show that suffering and love are connected.

HEMMER: Robert, one more thought here while we have you. He had this draw, this attraction to children, and it was almost like when he walked into a room or where he traveled anywhere in the world -- and we mentioned many times, the most traveled pope in history, there were enormous crowds of children that came out to see this man, to take their blessing and to listen to him, and to listen to the expression and the character he had on his face.

MOYNIHAN: Yes.

HEMMER: What was it that drew him? what did he see in children that he thought was so critical and so important?

MOYNIHAN: Well, it was innocence, and hope, and trust and the fact they saw that in him as well. And I remember something that my wife once said to me. She was in Boston Commons when the pope came to visit in 1979 -- hello?

HEMMER: I can hear you, Robert. Keep going -- Boston Commons.

MOYNIHAN: Yes. And she saw this white figure off in the distance, and he seemed a figure of hope. He seemed to say that in spite of concentration camps, in spite of all sorts of horrors in this world, there is hope, people can act charitably toward one another, they can treat each other well, and He was a beacon of hope.

HEMMER: Robert Moynihan, editor-in-chief of "Inside the Vatican" in Washington. Thank you, Robert.

Let's gate break here. Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSTELLO: Our top story all morning has been the failing health of pope John Paul II. You're taking a look at the papal apartment right now. This is where the pope's bedroom is, and behind it is the place where a hospital room is set up. The pope has chosen to stay in his papal apartments rather than going to the hospital, even though his condition is said to be very grave. We've had a last health checkup at 5:30 Eastern Time. We have had no word since then. And again, the pope is in very grave condition this morning. Details coming out of the Vatican do paint a picture of a man fighting for his life now -- Bill. HEMMER: Fifteen minutes now before the hour, Carol. The political issues now raised by the Terri Schiavo case will not end with her death.

Our senior analyst Jeff Greenfield is here to talk more about this. Jeff, nice to see you. Good morning to you. It has been 24 hours, but in so many ways, it's only been 24 hours. Are the political consequences, are they starting to set in at this point?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: I think they're becoming a little clearer. Among the most ardent supporters of keeping Terri Schiavo alive, the focus of anger has shifted clearly to the courts. The argument is that the Congress and the president reflecting the people's will, we get an argument on that based on the polls, but as the political branch of government wanted more efforts to keep her alive, the federal courts, like the Florida courts, of course said no.

James Dobson, who heads Focus on the Family, this is one of the most politically powerful socially conservative groups, very close to the Bush White House, on Wolf Blitzer yesterday said that, quote, "We all know the that the executive branch is checked by the legislative, and the legislative branch is checked by the executive branch, but neither of them check the courts. They're -- meaning the courts -- totally out of control. There is almost a feeling of futility when it comes to courts handing down decisions that contradict the will of the people.

And even more significantly, House majority leader Tom Delay, who has been on the forefront of this fight to keep Terri Schiavo alive, had to say yesterday. Just check these words out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. TOM DELAY (R-TX), HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: We will look at an arrogant, out of control, unaccountable judiciary that thumbed their nose at Congress and the president when given the jurisdiction to hear this case anew, and look at all the facts and make a determination, they chose not to participate, contrary to what Congress and the president asked them to do. We will look into that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GREENFIELD: Now, look into that. That could mean, Bill, anything from impeaching some of these judges, and Congress has the power to impeach federal judges, to try to use the power of the Congress has under the Constitution to define jurisdiction differently, maybe to say all these cases are going to be removed from state to federal courts under the following guidelines. We don't know what it means, but Tom Delay is not letting this fight go away.

HEMMER: You mentioned Delay in that clip right there, but as he's pointed out throughout the week here, there are conservatives who were not on board this from the very beginning.

GREENFIELD: Yes, this does cross right/left lines. We've already had a number of op-ed pieces and Web posting by conservatives, saying that Congress overreached in this case, and I think some of these conservatives would look at any attempt to federalize right-to- die cases as a misuse of federal government power. Conservatives tend to be very suspect about federal power.

And beyond that, I think there's an irony here. Conservatives over the years have done a very effective job of convincing a lot of Americans that you just can't trust the federal government with power. George Bush's slogan back in 2000 about Al Gore was, "He trusts Washington, I trust the people." And I think that's why the polling numbers show this distrust of Congress in this arena. Whether you're liberal or conservative, if you don't trust Washington to spend your money, do you trust it to decide whether you or your loved one should live or die? And that's a problem for conservatives.

HEMMER: Give us your hunch here or your sense about how long this lasts?

GREENFIELD: Hunch is a better word. My feeling is that among the most ardent supporters of Terri Schiavo being kept alive, this is going to be a galvanizing moment. Even though there's no election for a year and a half, I mean, I think it's ridiculous, frankly, to speculate about its impact on Jeb, or George, or any other individual. But I think that group, that is critical to the Republican party, is going to be much tougher on issues such as, who are you putting on the courts, on whether or not we'll accept a pro-choice candidate on the national ticket next time. I think it's going to stiffen those people's will a great deal. But at the same time, I think it's going to raise some questions among more moderate or liberal Republicans about whether we want that kind of philosophy controlling the party. So it could suggest -- it could tee up a political struggle.

HEMMER: And others may come in and suggest that memories are short.

GREENFIELD: I'm sorry?

HEMMER: That memories could be short, and if you're looking at 18 months down the road, I don't know how much of this is forgotten, and how much is not.

GREENFIELD: I agree. It's not like Elian Gonzalez, which happened in the spring of a presidential election year. It was fresh in the minds of Cuban-American voters in Florida, and it probably cost Al Gore the White House.

But you know, we sometimes make the mistake in the media of looking at everything with a short attention span. Memories may be short, but this is not a tax policy. This is some legislative -- this, for people who have these kinds of beliefs, is a life-and-death issue, where you don't get any stronger feelings than this, and I think they weigh it less.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jeff.

GREENFIELD: OK.

HEMMER: Here's Carol.

COSTELLO: All right, Bill, back to the pope now, people around the world offering prayers for the pope this morning. They're already gathering in Australia, and also in Poland.

We're joined by CNN's Chris Huntington. He's at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York.

And, Chris, what does it look like there this morning?

CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Carol, as you might expect, there is increased activity this morning. This is, in a sense, the symbolic seat of Catholicism here in the United States, the largest concentration of Catholics, of course, residing in New York City.

Cardinal Egan, Edward Cardinal Egan, gave a mass this morning. Now he presides over a daily mass. But today, as you might expect, the mass was tailored to John Paul II's situation. And Cardinal Egan drew comparisons between St. Peter and Pope John Paul. St. Peter, of course, if you know your Christian history, was really regarded as the first pope and struggled to bring the Christian church to life. And Cardinal Egan made that comparison to the struggles that Pope John Paul has undertaken his entire his life, particularly as a younger man standing up to Nazism and then the Soviet Union while the young man and young seminarian in Poland.

After Cardinal Egan's service, we had an opportunity to speak with him with a bunch of other reporters, and Cardinal Egan spoke very, candidly about the man with whom he'd worked closely in the Vatican for many, years. Here are some of Cardinal Egan's remarks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL EGAN, ARCHDIOCESE OF NEW YORK: Very good man. An easy man to work with. You know you're dealing with a man that wants accurate, quick, truthful answers. But he also was the kind of fellow that knows how to be kind and kid with you. And so you asked what my feelings are. Well, my feelings are feelings of one who has kind of lost a father. He named me a bishop, completely unexpectedly, that I would ever be -- I thought I was going to continue until 75 in Rome, and then he sent me to the capital of the world, and McGee, that's everything, isn't it? You can't have anything more than the capital of the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP>

HUNTINGTON: Now, Cardinal Egan also called John Paul II a hero for our times. There will be a special mass here at St. Patrick's Cathedral in the event of John Paul II's passing. And then Cardinal Egan will join the other cardinals for the conclave at the Vatican following that.

Carol.

COSTELLO: I was just curious if Cardinal Egan is in communication with the Vatican?

HUNTINGTON: Yes. We are told that indeed they are following the situation as closely as you can imagine. And being a cardinal, he certainly is well aware of the situation that is happening moment to moment there in the Vatican.

COSTELLO: Chris Huntington at St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City. Thank you. Our breaking news coverage continues in a moment. But in case you're just joining us, the Vatican says Pope John Paul II is now in very grave condition. The latest for you after a break. This is AMERICAN MORNING.

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COSTELLO: We are continuing to follow the events in Rome, but we want to turn to business right now. Andy Serwer is here. How are investors reacting to today's jobs report?

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" COLUMNIST: Well, they're kind of pleased it appears, Carol. Stocks trading higher at this hour. We will see what's going on with the Dow Industrials in a second here -- up 60 points.

Jobs report for march came out at 8:30 eastern this morning. We added 110,000 jobs. That's far weaker than expected, far weaker. But the is that it allayed inflation fears, which had been vexing the markets over the past several weeks.

Another sad note in the world of business on this somber day: Frank Purdue, poultry magnate, has passed away this morning. He took a backyard egg business and turned it into one of the nation's largest food companies. And you may remember, he said, "It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken."

He branded the chicken business, which is a tough thing to do.

COSTELLO: I remember the commercials, don't you?

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Some of the great commercials ever on television.

COSTELLO: Yeah.

SERWER: Yes. Yeah.

CAFFERTY: Most memorable, certainly.

SERWER: And he was a good guy, and people liked him down there in Salisbury, Maryland. Frank Purdue was 84.

COSTELLO: Thank you, Andy.

SERWER: You're welcome.

HEMMER: He had a full life at that age, too.

SERWER: Indeed.

HEMMER: Thank you. Back to the question of the day. Here's Jack.

CAFFERTY: Which is this, Bill: How will history look at the Terri Schiavo story?

Allen in Tennessee: "Nero fiddled while Rome burned. Congress, and its unwitting companion, the media, fiddled with this personal and private tragedy while our troop problems fail to be addressed."

Dean in New Jersey: "Some day, though not within our lifetimes, it will be possible to regenerate a seriously damaged cerebral cortex through the use of stem cells. When that day comes, people will look back on Terri Schiavo as an example of the medical deficiencies of the early 21st century.

And Ernie in New Brunswick writes: "History will view the Schiavo case as being the tipping point for the right-to-die movement. Terri will become the poster girl for physician-assisted death with dignity, and disgraceful circuses such as we have just witnessed will be a thing of the past.

COSTELLO: You can only hope so. But I don't know. I just don't know. In a case where emotion surrounds it, always becomes a circus.

CAFFERTY: Well, plus, I mean, without disgraceful circuses, we'd be out of business. I mean, that's what we live for.

COSTELLO: Now, but also disgraceful circuses can sometimes evoke change, in fairness.

HEMMER: Thank you, Jack.

In a moment here, get you back to Rome for the breaking news. Pope John Paul II has taken a dramatic turn for the worse. We're back in a moment with a special extended edition of AMERICAN MORNING, after this.

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