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American Morning
Pope's Health Crisis; Schiavo Feud
Aired April 01, 2005 - 08:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning again. Nine o'clock here in New York City. Watching the news out of Vatican City.
I'm Bill Hemmer. Soledad is off today.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Carol Costello, in for Soledad. Good morning to you.
HEMMER: Yes, there is sadness, there is apprehension, there is reflection around the world at this hour as the faithful await more news on the health of the pope. Here is what we can tell you out of the Vatican.
It's been more than three hours now since the Vatican spokesman gave his latest update, saying the pope is conscious and serene. The pontiff is being described as in very serious condition. His blood pressure is unstable.
The pope had asked not to go back to Gemelli Hospital, staying instead at the papal residence, surrounded there by a team of doctors. The pope also said to be suffering from septic shock, which is low blood flow due to an overwhelming infection in his organs.
COSTELLO: Jim Bittermann has been monitoring the situation for us all morning long. He joins us now live from Rome.
And Jim, what are we hearing about his condition right now?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've heard nothing since that medical bulletin that Bill was talking about three hours ago or so. Basically, that was a very moving moment because the papal spokesman came out and was moved to tears when he was talking about the kind of condition that the pope was in. The papal spokesman having been with the pope 26 years.
So it was quite an extraordinary thing to see the papal spokesman moved to tears. We've never seen anything like that happen before. He's basically been a very sort of cut-and-dry sort of fellow who comes out with always the best news that he can report about the pope, always the most positive spin. So it definitely was a change of tone certainly when we heard his remarks this afternoon.
Now, the other thing that we're hearing is that there's going to be a mass in about three hours' time. A mass celebrated by the vicar of Rome, Cardinal Camillo Ruini.
Now, this is significant because it's Cardinal Ruini who is in charge, who makes the actual announcement of the pope's death when the pope's death occurs. So that he would be having a mass this afternoon indicates I guess that he feels that he can get away from the Vatican. He's been at the Vatican all day today. And he's urging all Italians and, in fact, all Catholics around the world, to pray for the pope at this mass.
COSTELLO: So this cardinal doesn't perform this mass routinely?
BITTERMANN: No, no. This mass is just because of the pope's illness. He has called on all Italians to pray for the pope's health. And this afternoon this mass will be just -- just for the pope, yes.
COSTELLO: Jim Bittermann live from Rome this morning. Thank you.
HEMMER: Let's get a further explanation of the medical side of this story now with Dr. Sanjay Gupta at the CNN Center.
And Sanjay, welcome back here.
We spoke just about 90 minutes ago. What do you read now based on the symptoms and the description we're getting from the Vatican?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Very concerned, Bill. We're talking about specifically a significant infection probably in his bloodstream. And the cascade of events that follow very predictable and very worrisome, specifically this low blood pressure and poor blood flow to all of his organs that typically follows that, his kidneys, his liver, poor blood flow to his brain probably as well.
Bill, you've seen the statement. You've been reading the statement, talking about the pope's condition, specifically the statement saying he is lucid, he is conscious, he has unstable blood pressure and his condition is very serious.
Let me just tell you that those things aren't all very consistent as a medical doctor, particularly when you have unstable blood pressure and signs of this overwhelming infection. You're not lucid. So concerning at a minimum -- Bill.
HEMMER: It is April 1st. And going back to the 1st of February, you have a period here, Sanjay, two months, where we've seen the pope go to the hospital twice during that period. Give us a sense of perspective medically speaking about what he has endured over the past 60 days.
GUPTA: Yes, it's a good question. And he's endured a lot.
You know, February 1st, he was taken to the hospital for the flu- like symptoms. He was there for 10 days at that point.
February 24th, you and I talk a lot about the fact that he had a breathing tube put in at that point. We were very worried about him at that point. And then, just more recently, this feeding tube and now then this infection, call it septic shock, even. That's what the Vatican is calling it.
I don't think he probably ever fully recovered over the last couple of months from his initial hospitalization. Given his advanced age in his 80s, given the fact that he has these existing medical conditions, any man, if you were to hear the story, any doctor, any person would be concerned about this.
HEMMER: You mentioned septic shock. Get back to it. Define it better for us. What is it?
GUPTA: Yes, good question. Septic shock basically -- we've been talking about this urinary tract infection. What that means is you have an infection that's basically just in the urinary tract, in the bladder.
When it leaves that and gets into the bloodstream, it becomes an overwhelming infection in the body called septic shock. The way that the body responds -- again, we know this because we've studied lots of patients with this -- leads to a low blood pressure and subsequently to low blood flow to the organs.
And that is really the critical step here, Bill, that low blood flow to the organs. One of those organs, of course, being the brain. And that is what I think a lot of his doctors probably, the people around him right now, most concerned about.
HEMMER: Let me try and define something else with you, Sanjay. The nasal feeding tube that we were told was inserted for more caloric intake, help him get nutrition, if you changed that and put it into his stomach, would his condition change possibly?
GUPTA: Probably not, Bill. You know, the nasal feeding tube is a sort of temporary feeding tube. There was no operation necessary to do this.
The gastric feeding tube that we talked so much about with Terri Schiavo is a more permanent thing, but that really is not going to fix the infection now, which has already set in. The infection really needs to be treated by antibiotics. We got some word that he was responding to those antibiotics yesterday. It really appears that that's not the case today -- Bill.
HEMMER: Would Parkinson's play a role in all this? Does it all go together, or is what you're describing to us separate from that?
GUPTA: No, it absolutely goes together in a couple of ways. One is that, just because of the disease of Parkinson's, it doesn't suppress your immune system as much as it just makes you immobile. And people who are immobile are more likely to get infections.
When I first heard about the high fever yesterday, I thought it was probably going to be pneumonia, a more common infection, but certainly a urinary tract infection also common. But the other part of that, Bill, and the way that it really goes together, is that the infection itself can make the Parkinson's worse. So someone who is already sick from the infection can become that much more lethargic and immobile now because of the pre-existing Parkinson's disease.
HEMMER: Sanjay, thanks again.
GUPTA: Thank you.
HEMMER: We'll talk a bit later this morning.
GUPTA: All right.
HEMMER: Here's Carol.
COSTELLO: And as you might imagine, there is extraordinary activity at the Vatican right now.
Let's get back to Rome and our Vatican analyst, John Allen.
Hello, John.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Carol.
COSTELLO: Jim Bittermann said just a short time ago there was this special mass three hours from now, it will be presided over by this cardinal who would announce the pope's death in the event that happens. How significant is this?
ALLEN: Well, I think it is yet another sign, as if one more were needed, that there is an atmosphere of enormous anxiety and concern for the pope's condition. And that has been steadily building throughout the day.
You'll recall that early this morning we got word of the pope's cardiocirculatory collapse in the form of shock that he has experienced. At roughly noon, or around 12:30 Rome time, we had a briefing from the Vatican spokesperson, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, in which he was actually at one point overcome with emotion in talking about the very grave crisis facing John Paul II. And all of this illustrates that everyone realizes that is an extremely serious situation.
Now, the note of caution, of course, that has to be struck there is that the Vatican is telling us as of this hour that the pope remains conscious, but there is a sort of stabilization that has set in. It is obviously impossible to gaze into a crystal ball and know where this is going to go, but clearly everyone here is very worried.
COSTELLO: What is happening around the pope's bedside now, do you think?
ALLEN: Well, earlier today, the pope had a meeting with some of his close aides, including Cardinal Ruini, who will be celebrating the mass later on today. He then later in the day began meditating on the stations of the cross that are on the wall in his apartment. These are traditional Catholic devotion recalling the path of Christ to his death on Mount Calvary. And also had some passages of scripture read to him.
We imagine, of course, primarily what's going on right now is the doctors are trying to encourage him as much as possible to rest and to keep him essentially free from interruption. We also, of course, understand he's being very carefully monitored by his personal physician, Dr. Renato Buzzonetti, and the team of four or five specialists. Very state-of-the-art specialists who have been monitoring his condition through the night and all through the day.
COSTELLO: Back when he was in the hospital for the first time, after he was released from the hospital, there was some criticism that he took on too much too soon. But he kept on going, even after he was in the hospital a second time and got out. You know, on Easter Sunday, he was trying to speak and he couldn't.
Was he pushing himself too hard still?
ALLEN: Oh, I don't think there's any question of that. I mean, you know, the truth is, of course, that -- and I'm not a doctor, but I think if you're a doctor treating a patient like this, on the one hand, you know, you want to encourage him not to overtax himself. On the other hand, you want to encourage that will to live that is so obviously still alive in this man.
And it is quite clear, when he left the Gemelli Hospital after his first hospitalization on the 1st of February, the general consensus was he did so ahead of schedule at his own insistence. Throughout the course of this illness we have seen -- and you mentioned the Easter Sunday appearance. Remember, he was at the window of his apartment for more than 12 minutes.
There were at least two times when aides actually tried to bring him back in. And he sort of slapped them away, indicating he wanted to stay, he wanted to be present to that crowd even if he couldn't speak to them.
And so there's no doubt that John Paul has long been somebody who wanted to go up to the very brink of what he's capable of, and then go beyond. And that may be part of his present problems. But also, of course, it reflects that enormous drive that has seen him through so many of these earlier crises.
COSTELLO: John Allen live from Rome. Thank you.
Let's check on some of the other headlines this morning with Kelly Wallace, because there is more happening in the world.
Good morning.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Carol. Yes. And good morning again, everyone. Here are some of the other stories "Now in the News." More details could soon be known about the full extent of Terri Schiavo's brain damage. An autopsy is being performed. Her death, though, sparking another legal battle.
Michael Schiavo plans to have his wife's body cremated, the ashes brought to Pennsylvania. The Schindlers want their daughter buried in Florida. That's where our Bob Franken is. He has much more on this story coming right up.
A presidential commission says it will take years to rebuild American credibility after the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. In a report delivered to the White House Thursday, the panel determined U.S. intelligence agencies were "dead wrong" and offered recommendations for the future. President Bush has vowed to implement those changes.
Former President Bill Clinton back out and about. The former president accepted a humanitarian award calling for more action in the global fight against AIDS. It was Mr. Clinton's first public appearance since his surgery three weeks ago.
And the Washington Monument set to reopen this hour after 11 months under construction. The monument was shut down last September for a $15 million security upgrade. The security improvements include vehicle barriers and a new lighting system.
Time now to get another check of the forecast for this day. Chad Myers in Atlanta.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: We're going to get back to this breaking news out of Rome here in a moment. Pope John Paul II said to be in very grave condition at this hour. The latest developments in a moment.
COSTELLO: Also, a day after Terri Schiavo's death, bitterness remains. Is there a chance for reconciliation between the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo? The Schindlers' attorney joins us just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: From Vatican City, this is the papal residence. And we're waiting for the latest word from the Vatican on the condition of Pope John Paul II, said the be in grave condition, but will remain at the Vatican. We're told through officials he does not want to go back to the hospital, Gemelli Hospital, a place where he has been twice over the past two months. Again, awaiting word from the Vatican at this hour -- Carol.
COSTELLO: The pope's in grave condition this morning.
In other news this morning, an autopsy being performed on Terri Schiavo. The results are expected in a few weeks. The severely brain-damaged woman died on Thursday, but even her death has not stopped the bitter battle between her family members. CNN's Bob Franken live from the medical examiner's officer in Largo, Florida.
Good morning, Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.
And we would anticipate that at some point later today the remains will be released to Michael Schiavo, who says he intends to have the body cremated and then buried in Pennsylvania, over the strenuous objections of the Schindler family.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice-over): The end of Terri Schiavo's life did nothing to end the intensely bitter fight, but now the immediate family wants the emotions to subside.
SUZANNE VITADAMO, TERRI SCHIAVO'S SISTER: Threatening words dishonor our family, our faith and our sister, Terri. We would ask that all of those who support our family be completely kind in their words and deeds toward others.
FRANKEN: The blood relatives were not in the room when Terri Schiavo died. Their blood feud extended to her last moments and beyond. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, hearing that the Schindlers were arguing with police in the room about being ordered to leave, insisted that they could not be there.
GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: Mr. Schiavo made the decision that that was not appropriate under the circumstances.
FRANKEN: Left behind, bitter feelings and a remarkable public outpouring, not only here at the hospice, but at the highest levels of government.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I appreciate the example of grace and dignity they have displayed at a difficult time.
FRANKEN: A remarkable time marked by a highly unusual Palm Sunday session of Congress to impose one more federal court review of the case, even after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube had been disconnected. But the federal court said there was no legal way the judges could order the tube reconnected, nor would the justices of the Supreme Court, nor at the state level were the top officials able, they insisted, to intercede.
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: There are a lot of really dedicated people that have worked really hard to protect Terri Schiavo in this office. And in the end, there were limitations on what we could do.
FRANKEN: Limitations that all the prayers, civil disobedience and high-level efforts were never able to overcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE) FRANKEN: And when the autopsy comes out, report comes out in a few weeks, it is not going to answer all the questions. And there is a consensus that it will not do much to calm the bitter feelings -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Probably not. Bob Franken live from Largo, Florida, this morning.
Michael Schiavo wants his wife's body cremated and the ashes brought to Pennsylvania. Her parents, the Schindlers, want their daughter buried in Florida.
David Gibbs is the Schindler family attorney. Earlier I asked him how the parents were doing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID GIBBS, SCHINDLER FAMILY ATTORNEY: Under these incredibly sad circumstances, they're doing remarkably well. Obviously, yesterday was a very hard day.
I mean, they watched their daughter slowly starve to death over these 13 days. But they have decided to rally around their faith, and their faith is allowing them to accept the fact that even though they didn't want Terri to die, they fought for her life, they have to accept it as god's will.
They've also been embraced by their family. Many relatives, dozens of them from out of state, Pennsylvania, New York and other places, have come in. And with their faith in god and their family, they're going through these very difficult days with some strength as they go through this situation.
COSTELLO: Is there any sense of closure for them?
GIBBS: Well, I think at this point they have accepted the fact that indeed god loves Terri more than they do, and that, indeed, she is now with god. And so for Terri, yes, they believe that her years of suffering on this Earth are over. But they do have a sense of mission.
They feel that they have now been entrusted of god with Terri's legacy. And the question is, from this situation, what good could result? And I believe they have a goal in their heart to go across the nation and have the different states and even the nation look at laws to help protect the innocent, the disabled, from facing the fate of starvation that Terri had to undergo.
COSTELLO: So is there a chance of reconciliation between the families?
GIBBS: Well, certainly while this situation is just tragic, the Schindlers yesterday in their public statement indeed used the words of Jesus on the cross and saying, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." And they truly believe that Terri's life being ended in this horrible way was barbaric and inappropriate, but then they also asked for forgiveness.
And they said, "At any point that we haven't demonstrated the love and compassion in this stand of Terri's life was required of our faith, please forgive us." And that was extended to literally the nation. Because this is just a mom and dad, a brother and a sister who were fighting for the life of their loved one.
COSTELLO: A lot of nasty things have been said about Michael Schiavo. Some say he's been vilified. His brother, Scott Schiavo, said, "I think if the Schindlers apologized to Michael there could be reconciliation."
Would any sort of apology come from the Schindlers to Michael Schiavo?
GIBBS: Well, at this point, I think the attention needs to get off of Michael Schiavo. And it seems like they're sort of fixated on his image.
I mean, there were press releases going out days ahead of Terri's death saying that he was sitting there. And candidly, the family is concerned about Terri, they're concerned about her legacy. They are wanting to make sure that she did not die in vain.
I have some images in my mind I'll never forget, walking into that hospice room and watching this beautiful disabled woman literally starving to death. And watching her mother hug and cry, watching Terri cry and respond. And the family is obviously going through an incredible loss.
They feel that Terri's life should not have been ended in this way. And candidly, at this point, I think it is distasteful that Michael Schiavo seems fixated on himself, his image, his feelings, his brothers. At this point, Terri should be the focus of our attention as we ask the question as to her legacy.
COSTELLO: David Gibbs, thanks for joining AMERICAN MORNING this morning -- Bill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Twenty-one minutes past the hour now, Carol. Thanks.
Back to our top story in a moment here, the latest on the breaking news out of the Vatican. A dramatic downturn in the condition of Pope John Paul II. Details when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: We are watching for any sign of change in the pope's health. The Vatican press office staying open during the crisis, but there has been no word from the Vatican since about 5:30 a.m. Eastern Time, which is about four hours ago.
Pope John Paul II also receiving visitors today. And when we get more word from the Vatican, you'll hear it right here -- Carol. COSTELLO: Let's talk about the Terri Schiavo case and Jack's "Question of the Day."
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Carol.
Terri Schiavo's life is over. The national debate she triggered is far from over.
It pitted Congress and the White House against federal and state courts, and elevated end-of-life decisions into the national consciousness. Some states are already considering adopting more restrictive end-of-life measures. With continued advances in medical technology and longer life spans, Americans will increasingly be faced with end-of-life decisions.
So we asked this morning, how do you think history will look at the Terri Schiavo story? Interesting stuff.
Brian in South Carolina, "There was no news value to this. The Schindlers never had a case. There was no judicial activism. The law is crystal clear as to who has guardianship. It's a slam dunk, no- brainer. CNN and the other television networks should be ashamed for blowing this way out of proportion and nationalizing a family feud with 24/7 coverage."
Tony in Illinois writes, "I can only hope we'll look back and see that the events surround Ms. Schiavo's passing will be shown as the beginning of the unraveling of the noose that the radical right has tried to hang around the neck of individual freedom."
Dawn in Virginia writes, "Terri Schiavo's death was legally correct and morally wrong. Her legacy will be the realignment of justice and morality in similar situations."
And I like this from Michelle in New York, "History remembers all the wrong things. No scholarly text will bother to record how my husband and I held hands as we talked over what our end-of-life wishes would be, how afraid we became at the idea of someone outside our marriage trying to make this decision for us, or the love we felt when we knew that one would do whatever it took to see that the other's wishes were carried out no matter what the rest of the world thought."
COSTELLO: That's excellent.
HEMMER: Wow.
COSTELLO: That is really excellent.
You know, I liked the e-mail from the person that did you the last time around when he said that he doesn't think anything will come of it because as time passes, we'll forget. Or the next very emotional case goes along, we'll go through this debate once again.
CAFFERTY: Yes. The American attention span because of satellites and the ability to convey so much information so quickly, our attention span has gotten progressively smaller over the last 30, 40 years.
COSTELLO: True.
HEMMER: But I think your hunch is right, though. Such a public death between very private people and two families. It is the last they hoped that this legacy, which she endured in the end, will have some sort of positive impact on the people that followed her story and were drawn to her story. I mean, is it just a living will that her legacy is left with here, or are there bigger issues?
CAFFERTY: Oh, no, there's a much bigger issue about the government getting involved in the courts, about a weekend session of Congress on Palm Sunday, and a race back to the White House by the president in the middle of the night to sign a piece of legislation that probably will be argued by constitutional scholars for a long time as to whether or not it was even a legal document.
COSTELLO: And you know a lot of people have criticized the media for being emotional about this, but emotion was driving some of the actions that actually happened. And not from us, from the families.
CAFFERTY: Well, we got caught up in it a little bit, too, though. To try and convince me there wasn't a media hysteria over Terri Schiavo you'd have to pour a lot of tequila down me.
COSTELLO: I don't know.
HEMMER: I've said from the beginning, though, that people were drawn to this story because they could put themselves in the same...
CAFFERTY: Well, part of the reason is they couldn't get away from it. We shoved it down their throat 24 hours a day for two solid weeks.
HEMMER: True, but the more you learned about it, you're thinking, well, what would I do if I were in that circumstance, or what would I want my parents to do, or what would I want to do for my own children, who what would I do if were Michael Schiavo. You know, he remembers a woman 15 years ago, a newlywed, a beautiful woman in his life, and felt that he was doing the best thing for her. And the parents obviously had a strong commitment in doing what they felt was right.
CAFFERTY: I don't think he felt he was doing the best thing for her. I think he was carrying out her specific wishes should these circumstances arise.
HEMMER: Sure. That's...
CAFFERTY: There's a whole different -- it's a whole different subject.
HEMMER: All right, Jack. Thanks.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
HEMMER: Carol, also.
Back to the Vatican in a moment here. Keeping a very close eye on what's happening with this breaking news. Pope John Paul II said to be in very serious condition. Back to Rome in a moment here. We are waiting for any word that we get out of the Vatican.
Let's get a break here on this AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Aired April 1, 2005 - 08:59 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning again. Nine o'clock here in New York City. Watching the news out of Vatican City.
I'm Bill Hemmer. Soledad is off today.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Carol Costello, in for Soledad. Good morning to you.
HEMMER: Yes, there is sadness, there is apprehension, there is reflection around the world at this hour as the faithful await more news on the health of the pope. Here is what we can tell you out of the Vatican.
It's been more than three hours now since the Vatican spokesman gave his latest update, saying the pope is conscious and serene. The pontiff is being described as in very serious condition. His blood pressure is unstable.
The pope had asked not to go back to Gemelli Hospital, staying instead at the papal residence, surrounded there by a team of doctors. The pope also said to be suffering from septic shock, which is low blood flow due to an overwhelming infection in his organs.
COSTELLO: Jim Bittermann has been monitoring the situation for us all morning long. He joins us now live from Rome.
And Jim, what are we hearing about his condition right now?
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've heard nothing since that medical bulletin that Bill was talking about three hours ago or so. Basically, that was a very moving moment because the papal spokesman came out and was moved to tears when he was talking about the kind of condition that the pope was in. The papal spokesman having been with the pope 26 years.
So it was quite an extraordinary thing to see the papal spokesman moved to tears. We've never seen anything like that happen before. He's basically been a very sort of cut-and-dry sort of fellow who comes out with always the best news that he can report about the pope, always the most positive spin. So it definitely was a change of tone certainly when we heard his remarks this afternoon.
Now, the other thing that we're hearing is that there's going to be a mass in about three hours' time. A mass celebrated by the vicar of Rome, Cardinal Camillo Ruini.
Now, this is significant because it's Cardinal Ruini who is in charge, who makes the actual announcement of the pope's death when the pope's death occurs. So that he would be having a mass this afternoon indicates I guess that he feels that he can get away from the Vatican. He's been at the Vatican all day today. And he's urging all Italians and, in fact, all Catholics around the world, to pray for the pope at this mass.
COSTELLO: So this cardinal doesn't perform this mass routinely?
BITTERMANN: No, no. This mass is just because of the pope's illness. He has called on all Italians to pray for the pope's health. And this afternoon this mass will be just -- just for the pope, yes.
COSTELLO: Jim Bittermann live from Rome this morning. Thank you.
HEMMER: Let's get a further explanation of the medical side of this story now with Dr. Sanjay Gupta at the CNN Center.
And Sanjay, welcome back here.
We spoke just about 90 minutes ago. What do you read now based on the symptoms and the description we're getting from the Vatican?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Very concerned, Bill. We're talking about specifically a significant infection probably in his bloodstream. And the cascade of events that follow very predictable and very worrisome, specifically this low blood pressure and poor blood flow to all of his organs that typically follows that, his kidneys, his liver, poor blood flow to his brain probably as well.
Bill, you've seen the statement. You've been reading the statement, talking about the pope's condition, specifically the statement saying he is lucid, he is conscious, he has unstable blood pressure and his condition is very serious.
Let me just tell you that those things aren't all very consistent as a medical doctor, particularly when you have unstable blood pressure and signs of this overwhelming infection. You're not lucid. So concerning at a minimum -- Bill.
HEMMER: It is April 1st. And going back to the 1st of February, you have a period here, Sanjay, two months, where we've seen the pope go to the hospital twice during that period. Give us a sense of perspective medically speaking about what he has endured over the past 60 days.
GUPTA: Yes, it's a good question. And he's endured a lot.
You know, February 1st, he was taken to the hospital for the flu- like symptoms. He was there for 10 days at that point.
February 24th, you and I talk a lot about the fact that he had a breathing tube put in at that point. We were very worried about him at that point. And then, just more recently, this feeding tube and now then this infection, call it septic shock, even. That's what the Vatican is calling it.
I don't think he probably ever fully recovered over the last couple of months from his initial hospitalization. Given his advanced age in his 80s, given the fact that he has these existing medical conditions, any man, if you were to hear the story, any doctor, any person would be concerned about this.
HEMMER: You mentioned septic shock. Get back to it. Define it better for us. What is it?
GUPTA: Yes, good question. Septic shock basically -- we've been talking about this urinary tract infection. What that means is you have an infection that's basically just in the urinary tract, in the bladder.
When it leaves that and gets into the bloodstream, it becomes an overwhelming infection in the body called septic shock. The way that the body responds -- again, we know this because we've studied lots of patients with this -- leads to a low blood pressure and subsequently to low blood flow to the organs.
And that is really the critical step here, Bill, that low blood flow to the organs. One of those organs, of course, being the brain. And that is what I think a lot of his doctors probably, the people around him right now, most concerned about.
HEMMER: Let me try and define something else with you, Sanjay. The nasal feeding tube that we were told was inserted for more caloric intake, help him get nutrition, if you changed that and put it into his stomach, would his condition change possibly?
GUPTA: Probably not, Bill. You know, the nasal feeding tube is a sort of temporary feeding tube. There was no operation necessary to do this.
The gastric feeding tube that we talked so much about with Terri Schiavo is a more permanent thing, but that really is not going to fix the infection now, which has already set in. The infection really needs to be treated by antibiotics. We got some word that he was responding to those antibiotics yesterday. It really appears that that's not the case today -- Bill.
HEMMER: Would Parkinson's play a role in all this? Does it all go together, or is what you're describing to us separate from that?
GUPTA: No, it absolutely goes together in a couple of ways. One is that, just because of the disease of Parkinson's, it doesn't suppress your immune system as much as it just makes you immobile. And people who are immobile are more likely to get infections.
When I first heard about the high fever yesterday, I thought it was probably going to be pneumonia, a more common infection, but certainly a urinary tract infection also common. But the other part of that, Bill, and the way that it really goes together, is that the infection itself can make the Parkinson's worse. So someone who is already sick from the infection can become that much more lethargic and immobile now because of the pre-existing Parkinson's disease.
HEMMER: Sanjay, thanks again.
GUPTA: Thank you.
HEMMER: We'll talk a bit later this morning.
GUPTA: All right.
HEMMER: Here's Carol.
COSTELLO: And as you might imagine, there is extraordinary activity at the Vatican right now.
Let's get back to Rome and our Vatican analyst, John Allen.
Hello, John.
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Carol.
COSTELLO: Jim Bittermann said just a short time ago there was this special mass three hours from now, it will be presided over by this cardinal who would announce the pope's death in the event that happens. How significant is this?
ALLEN: Well, I think it is yet another sign, as if one more were needed, that there is an atmosphere of enormous anxiety and concern for the pope's condition. And that has been steadily building throughout the day.
You'll recall that early this morning we got word of the pope's cardiocirculatory collapse in the form of shock that he has experienced. At roughly noon, or around 12:30 Rome time, we had a briefing from the Vatican spokesperson, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, in which he was actually at one point overcome with emotion in talking about the very grave crisis facing John Paul II. And all of this illustrates that everyone realizes that is an extremely serious situation.
Now, the note of caution, of course, that has to be struck there is that the Vatican is telling us as of this hour that the pope remains conscious, but there is a sort of stabilization that has set in. It is obviously impossible to gaze into a crystal ball and know where this is going to go, but clearly everyone here is very worried.
COSTELLO: What is happening around the pope's bedside now, do you think?
ALLEN: Well, earlier today, the pope had a meeting with some of his close aides, including Cardinal Ruini, who will be celebrating the mass later on today. He then later in the day began meditating on the stations of the cross that are on the wall in his apartment. These are traditional Catholic devotion recalling the path of Christ to his death on Mount Calvary. And also had some passages of scripture read to him.
We imagine, of course, primarily what's going on right now is the doctors are trying to encourage him as much as possible to rest and to keep him essentially free from interruption. We also, of course, understand he's being very carefully monitored by his personal physician, Dr. Renato Buzzonetti, and the team of four or five specialists. Very state-of-the-art specialists who have been monitoring his condition through the night and all through the day.
COSTELLO: Back when he was in the hospital for the first time, after he was released from the hospital, there was some criticism that he took on too much too soon. But he kept on going, even after he was in the hospital a second time and got out. You know, on Easter Sunday, he was trying to speak and he couldn't.
Was he pushing himself too hard still?
ALLEN: Oh, I don't think there's any question of that. I mean, you know, the truth is, of course, that -- and I'm not a doctor, but I think if you're a doctor treating a patient like this, on the one hand, you know, you want to encourage him not to overtax himself. On the other hand, you want to encourage that will to live that is so obviously still alive in this man.
And it is quite clear, when he left the Gemelli Hospital after his first hospitalization on the 1st of February, the general consensus was he did so ahead of schedule at his own insistence. Throughout the course of this illness we have seen -- and you mentioned the Easter Sunday appearance. Remember, he was at the window of his apartment for more than 12 minutes.
There were at least two times when aides actually tried to bring him back in. And he sort of slapped them away, indicating he wanted to stay, he wanted to be present to that crowd even if he couldn't speak to them.
And so there's no doubt that John Paul has long been somebody who wanted to go up to the very brink of what he's capable of, and then go beyond. And that may be part of his present problems. But also, of course, it reflects that enormous drive that has seen him through so many of these earlier crises.
COSTELLO: John Allen live from Rome. Thank you.
Let's check on some of the other headlines this morning with Kelly Wallace, because there is more happening in the world.
Good morning.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Carol. Yes. And good morning again, everyone. Here are some of the other stories "Now in the News." More details could soon be known about the full extent of Terri Schiavo's brain damage. An autopsy is being performed. Her death, though, sparking another legal battle.
Michael Schiavo plans to have his wife's body cremated, the ashes brought to Pennsylvania. The Schindlers want their daughter buried in Florida. That's where our Bob Franken is. He has much more on this story coming right up.
A presidential commission says it will take years to rebuild American credibility after the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. In a report delivered to the White House Thursday, the panel determined U.S. intelligence agencies were "dead wrong" and offered recommendations for the future. President Bush has vowed to implement those changes.
Former President Bill Clinton back out and about. The former president accepted a humanitarian award calling for more action in the global fight against AIDS. It was Mr. Clinton's first public appearance since his surgery three weeks ago.
And the Washington Monument set to reopen this hour after 11 months under construction. The monument was shut down last September for a $15 million security upgrade. The security improvements include vehicle barriers and a new lighting system.
Time now to get another check of the forecast for this day. Chad Myers in Atlanta.
(WEATHER REPORT)
HEMMER: We're going to get back to this breaking news out of Rome here in a moment. Pope John Paul II said to be in very grave condition at this hour. The latest developments in a moment.
COSTELLO: Also, a day after Terri Schiavo's death, bitterness remains. Is there a chance for reconciliation between the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo? The Schindlers' attorney joins us just ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.
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HEMMER: From Vatican City, this is the papal residence. And we're waiting for the latest word from the Vatican on the condition of Pope John Paul II, said the be in grave condition, but will remain at the Vatican. We're told through officials he does not want to go back to the hospital, Gemelli Hospital, a place where he has been twice over the past two months. Again, awaiting word from the Vatican at this hour -- Carol.
COSTELLO: The pope's in grave condition this morning.
In other news this morning, an autopsy being performed on Terri Schiavo. The results are expected in a few weeks. The severely brain-damaged woman died on Thursday, but even her death has not stopped the bitter battle between her family members. CNN's Bob Franken live from the medical examiner's officer in Largo, Florida.
Good morning, Bob.
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Carol.
And we would anticipate that at some point later today the remains will be released to Michael Schiavo, who says he intends to have the body cremated and then buried in Pennsylvania, over the strenuous objections of the Schindler family.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANKEN (voice-over): The end of Terri Schiavo's life did nothing to end the intensely bitter fight, but now the immediate family wants the emotions to subside.
SUZANNE VITADAMO, TERRI SCHIAVO'S SISTER: Threatening words dishonor our family, our faith and our sister, Terri. We would ask that all of those who support our family be completely kind in their words and deeds toward others.
FRANKEN: The blood relatives were not in the room when Terri Schiavo died. Their blood feud extended to her last moments and beyond. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, hearing that the Schindlers were arguing with police in the room about being ordered to leave, insisted that they could not be there.
GEORGE FELOS, MICHAEL SCHIAVO'S ATTORNEY: Mr. Schiavo made the decision that that was not appropriate under the circumstances.
FRANKEN: Left behind, bitter feelings and a remarkable public outpouring, not only here at the hospice, but at the highest levels of government.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I appreciate the example of grace and dignity they have displayed at a difficult time.
FRANKEN: A remarkable time marked by a highly unusual Palm Sunday session of Congress to impose one more federal court review of the case, even after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube had been disconnected. But the federal court said there was no legal way the judges could order the tube reconnected, nor would the justices of the Supreme Court, nor at the state level were the top officials able, they insisted, to intercede.
GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: There are a lot of really dedicated people that have worked really hard to protect Terri Schiavo in this office. And in the end, there were limitations on what we could do.
FRANKEN: Limitations that all the prayers, civil disobedience and high-level efforts were never able to overcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE) FRANKEN: And when the autopsy comes out, report comes out in a few weeks, it is not going to answer all the questions. And there is a consensus that it will not do much to calm the bitter feelings -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Probably not. Bob Franken live from Largo, Florida, this morning.
Michael Schiavo wants his wife's body cremated and the ashes brought to Pennsylvania. Her parents, the Schindlers, want their daughter buried in Florida.
David Gibbs is the Schindler family attorney. Earlier I asked him how the parents were doing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID GIBBS, SCHINDLER FAMILY ATTORNEY: Under these incredibly sad circumstances, they're doing remarkably well. Obviously, yesterday was a very hard day.
I mean, they watched their daughter slowly starve to death over these 13 days. But they have decided to rally around their faith, and their faith is allowing them to accept the fact that even though they didn't want Terri to die, they fought for her life, they have to accept it as god's will.
They've also been embraced by their family. Many relatives, dozens of them from out of state, Pennsylvania, New York and other places, have come in. And with their faith in god and their family, they're going through these very difficult days with some strength as they go through this situation.
COSTELLO: Is there any sense of closure for them?
GIBBS: Well, I think at this point they have accepted the fact that indeed god loves Terri more than they do, and that, indeed, she is now with god. And so for Terri, yes, they believe that her years of suffering on this Earth are over. But they do have a sense of mission.
They feel that they have now been entrusted of god with Terri's legacy. And the question is, from this situation, what good could result? And I believe they have a goal in their heart to go across the nation and have the different states and even the nation look at laws to help protect the innocent, the disabled, from facing the fate of starvation that Terri had to undergo.
COSTELLO: So is there a chance of reconciliation between the families?
GIBBS: Well, certainly while this situation is just tragic, the Schindlers yesterday in their public statement indeed used the words of Jesus on the cross and saying, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." And they truly believe that Terri's life being ended in this horrible way was barbaric and inappropriate, but then they also asked for forgiveness.
And they said, "At any point that we haven't demonstrated the love and compassion in this stand of Terri's life was required of our faith, please forgive us." And that was extended to literally the nation. Because this is just a mom and dad, a brother and a sister who were fighting for the life of their loved one.
COSTELLO: A lot of nasty things have been said about Michael Schiavo. Some say he's been vilified. His brother, Scott Schiavo, said, "I think if the Schindlers apologized to Michael there could be reconciliation."
Would any sort of apology come from the Schindlers to Michael Schiavo?
GIBBS: Well, at this point, I think the attention needs to get off of Michael Schiavo. And it seems like they're sort of fixated on his image.
I mean, there were press releases going out days ahead of Terri's death saying that he was sitting there. And candidly, the family is concerned about Terri, they're concerned about her legacy. They are wanting to make sure that she did not die in vain.
I have some images in my mind I'll never forget, walking into that hospice room and watching this beautiful disabled woman literally starving to death. And watching her mother hug and cry, watching Terri cry and respond. And the family is obviously going through an incredible loss.
They feel that Terri's life should not have been ended in this way. And candidly, at this point, I think it is distasteful that Michael Schiavo seems fixated on himself, his image, his feelings, his brothers. At this point, Terri should be the focus of our attention as we ask the question as to her legacy.
COSTELLO: David Gibbs, thanks for joining AMERICAN MORNING this morning -- Bill.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HEMMER: Twenty-one minutes past the hour now, Carol. Thanks.
Back to our top story in a moment here, the latest on the breaking news out of the Vatican. A dramatic downturn in the condition of Pope John Paul II. Details when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: We are watching for any sign of change in the pope's health. The Vatican press office staying open during the crisis, but there has been no word from the Vatican since about 5:30 a.m. Eastern Time, which is about four hours ago.
Pope John Paul II also receiving visitors today. And when we get more word from the Vatican, you'll hear it right here -- Carol. COSTELLO: Let's talk about the Terri Schiavo case and Jack's "Question of the Day."
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you, Carol.
Terri Schiavo's life is over. The national debate she triggered is far from over.
It pitted Congress and the White House against federal and state courts, and elevated end-of-life decisions into the national consciousness. Some states are already considering adopting more restrictive end-of-life measures. With continued advances in medical technology and longer life spans, Americans will increasingly be faced with end-of-life decisions.
So we asked this morning, how do you think history will look at the Terri Schiavo story? Interesting stuff.
Brian in South Carolina, "There was no news value to this. The Schindlers never had a case. There was no judicial activism. The law is crystal clear as to who has guardianship. It's a slam dunk, no- brainer. CNN and the other television networks should be ashamed for blowing this way out of proportion and nationalizing a family feud with 24/7 coverage."
Tony in Illinois writes, "I can only hope we'll look back and see that the events surround Ms. Schiavo's passing will be shown as the beginning of the unraveling of the noose that the radical right has tried to hang around the neck of individual freedom."
Dawn in Virginia writes, "Terri Schiavo's death was legally correct and morally wrong. Her legacy will be the realignment of justice and morality in similar situations."
And I like this from Michelle in New York, "History remembers all the wrong things. No scholarly text will bother to record how my husband and I held hands as we talked over what our end-of-life wishes would be, how afraid we became at the idea of someone outside our marriage trying to make this decision for us, or the love we felt when we knew that one would do whatever it took to see that the other's wishes were carried out no matter what the rest of the world thought."
COSTELLO: That's excellent.
HEMMER: Wow.
COSTELLO: That is really excellent.
You know, I liked the e-mail from the person that did you the last time around when he said that he doesn't think anything will come of it because as time passes, we'll forget. Or the next very emotional case goes along, we'll go through this debate once again.
CAFFERTY: Yes. The American attention span because of satellites and the ability to convey so much information so quickly, our attention span has gotten progressively smaller over the last 30, 40 years.
COSTELLO: True.
HEMMER: But I think your hunch is right, though. Such a public death between very private people and two families. It is the last they hoped that this legacy, which she endured in the end, will have some sort of positive impact on the people that followed her story and were drawn to her story. I mean, is it just a living will that her legacy is left with here, or are there bigger issues?
CAFFERTY: Oh, no, there's a much bigger issue about the government getting involved in the courts, about a weekend session of Congress on Palm Sunday, and a race back to the White House by the president in the middle of the night to sign a piece of legislation that probably will be argued by constitutional scholars for a long time as to whether or not it was even a legal document.
COSTELLO: And you know a lot of people have criticized the media for being emotional about this, but emotion was driving some of the actions that actually happened. And not from us, from the families.
CAFFERTY: Well, we got caught up in it a little bit, too, though. To try and convince me there wasn't a media hysteria over Terri Schiavo you'd have to pour a lot of tequila down me.
COSTELLO: I don't know.
HEMMER: I've said from the beginning, though, that people were drawn to this story because they could put themselves in the same...
CAFFERTY: Well, part of the reason is they couldn't get away from it. We shoved it down their throat 24 hours a day for two solid weeks.
HEMMER: True, but the more you learned about it, you're thinking, well, what would I do if I were in that circumstance, or what would I want my parents to do, or what would I want to do for my own children, who what would I do if were Michael Schiavo. You know, he remembers a woman 15 years ago, a newlywed, a beautiful woman in his life, and felt that he was doing the best thing for her. And the parents obviously had a strong commitment in doing what they felt was right.
CAFFERTY: I don't think he felt he was doing the best thing for her. I think he was carrying out her specific wishes should these circumstances arise.
HEMMER: Sure. That's...
CAFFERTY: There's a whole different -- it's a whole different subject.
HEMMER: All right, Jack. Thanks.
CAFFERTY: Sure.
HEMMER: Carol, also.
Back to the Vatican in a moment here. Keeping a very close eye on what's happening with this breaking news. Pope John Paul II said to be in very serious condition. Back to Rome in a moment here. We are waiting for any word that we get out of the Vatican.
Let's get a break here on this AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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