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American Morning
Pope in Grave Condition
Aired April 01, 2005 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: By the hundreds of millions, the faithful praying this morning for Pope John Paul II, awaiting any word or even any sign of his condition. This as the pope battles the most severe health crisis of his life. His story is our story on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: Good morning. 11:00 here in New York. Welcome to our expanded edition of AMERICAN MORNING as our coverage continues from New York and the Vatican.
I'm Bill Hemmer. Soledad is off today.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm in for Soledad. I'm Carol Costello. Good morning.
HEMMER: We're watching the latest, Carol, from the Vatican. Pope John Paul II has been fighting for his life all day. The Vatican about 5.5 hours ago saying that he was serene at this time. And as evening falls there in Italy, we're watching for any signs of any change in his condition.
Jim Bittermann is back with us from Rome as we start this new hour here on AMERICAN MORNING.
And Jim, I think for the sake of our viewers who might be just joining us right now, you have seen over the past six or seven hours a flurry of activity throughout the Vatican. If you could, maybe take us through these steps. Tick them off for us and the significance there.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In fact, it's been a tumultuous day here in terms of Vatican press releases. We're watching the close of the day now, but the day is not really over. There's a few things coming up yet.
But during the course of the day, we heard first that the pope was in very grave condition, that he suffered a cardiocirculatory collapse overnight. That means his blood flow was restricted.
The papal spokesman told us that in fact his blood pressure is unstable, that his medical condition, medical parameters had been altered is the way the papal spokesman put it. He's a medical doctor, so he uses medical language sometimes. But he got very emotional in the course of that news conference as he was describing the pope's condition and actually broke into tears at one point, when asked how personally he felt about it.
He's been with the pope for 26 years both as a reporter for one of the local newspapers and then later as the papal spokesman. He and a number of other people now have changed the focus from St. Peter's Square briefly to the Church of St. John's in Lateran, which is across town.
And about an hour from now, there will be a special mass by Cardinal Camillo Ruini, who is one of three people who actually keeps his job in the event of the passing of the pope. He is the vicar of Rome. And as such, he will conduct a mass in about an hour from now. And he's asked all Italians and all Catholics to pray for the health of the pope.
It's expected that they're going to use a rite, a particular Roman Catholic mass that's actually designed for the sickness of the pope, and that's expected -- we believe that's the mass that's going to be celebrated just about an hour from now -- Bill.
HEMMER: The significance of this too, Jim, it was about two hours ago the Vatican released a statement saying the pope had appointed 17 new bishops and archbishops and also accepted the resignation of a half a dozen others. Is this -- is this normal format for as close as normal can be at this point?
BITTERMANN: Well, I don't think anything is very normal at this point. Over the course of the last month, the pope has appointed 29 bishops, and then named 17 more today. So 46 bishops in total. Of course, thousands around the world, and there are vacancies everywhere that need to be filled.
The pope has to sign off on each one of these appointments and each one of the resignations in some fashion. He has to indicate his approval.
So one of the things it indicates is that some time in the near recent past the pope was able to do that. What we've heard about his medical condition today is it seems very unlikely that this list was approved during the day today.
But in any case, the Vatican issued that list, perhaps to indicate that the pope is continuing at the helm in the Vatican, or perhaps because they wanted to get this list out before any announcement of his death took place. And certainly we'll look out indeed if bishops were being named after the pope's death had been announced -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim Bittermann. Jim Bittermann, thanks there in Rome.
Just about 6:00 in the evening there in Rome. Night starting to set in there. It's been 5.5 hours since we had any official word from the Vatican -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Yes. I wanted to ask Sanjay about that actually. Let's head live to Atlanta and check in with Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
It has been 5.5 hours since we've had any word on the pope's condition. Should we read anything into this?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's hard to say clearly. I think one of two things.
One is that they're just not releasing any information for the time being. Or two, is that the situation is still too dynamic, too much influx to be able to say for sure how he's doing.
My guess that, you know, when someone is of this age and with this sort of list now of preexisting medical conditions, it's a very tenuous situation. Meaning it could literally change minute to minute -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Also, his spokesman came out, tears in his eyes. He described the pope as being lucid and serene. How might the pope look at this point, Sanjay?
GUPTA: Well, you know, we talked about lucid before. You know, sort of putting it all together, looking at the statement in terms of how they're describing the pope as lucid, conscious, but also with an unstable blood pressure, and things being not that stable in terms of condition becoming more serious, it doesn't all fit together, to be perfectly candid.
Carol, I think that the -- when you say someone is lucid, that usually means they are awake, they're able to understand you, carry on their daily duties. All of that. Obviously, with this degree of medical illness, that's probably not likely.
So I'm not sure why the inconsistency, but it does seem a bit inconsistent -- Carol?
COSTELLO: It does. An interesting statement from one of the analysts we had on this morning that the pope is dying from the feet up.
GUPTA: Yes. If you look at his history over the years, it is an interesting statement that he made. But what happened was he essentially became significantly debilitated.
He used to be so active, and then he became significantly debilitated probably now for several years. The Parkinson's disease certainly has made him immobile. And over time, the mobility has crept up not only into his legs, but also into his arms.
Eventually, Parkinson's disease -- people don't realize this -- can also affect other muscles, including the muscles around the upper airway, which may have led in part to some of the difficulties that he had breathing. And now, with the infection and everything going on, the Parkinson's disease is certainly adding to that as well -- Carol.
COSTELLO: And I was going to ask you about the condition of his organs from what happened to him this morning.
GUPTA: Yes. You know, that's a -- that's a good question. And let me give you a little bit of a timeline here of how things have developed really over the last 12 hours.
You know, we heard yesterday -- this is all in Eastern Time -- well, first, Wednesday morning that the nasal feeding tube was inserted. Then Thursday, around the afternoon, the blood pressure dropped. That was the first thing. And then shortly after that, we hear that he had the urinary tract infection, high fever, and then the antibiotics were administered as well.
Later on that night we actually heard that his condition had stabilized, suggesting a couple of things. One is that maybe his condition did stabilize, but also that he may have been unstable before that. But then a sudden change after that, very serious septic shock.
You know, we all heard about that early this morning, cardiocirculatory collapse. What that means is probably not enough blood flow to his organs. So it wouldn't surprise me at all, Carol, answering your question, if his organs, including his kidneys, his liver, perhaps his brain as well, have had a significant deprivation, a lack, if you will, of blood to them for some time.
COSTELLO: Sanjay, thank you -- Bill.
GUPTA: Thank you.
HEMMER: All right, Carol. Reaction now from the White House as well of the pope's grave condition. Suzanne Malveaux is down there at the White House.
What is the reaction, Suzanne? About two hours ago we had heard that the president was praying for the pope. What do we have now?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bill, that's absolutely right. The president, of course, has been receiving updates on the pope's condition from his chief of staff, Andy Card.
It was about 7:30 last night at the residence, as well as this morning in the Oval Office. His spokesman, Scott McClellan, came out earlier this morning delivering a message from the president, saying -- I'm quoting here -- "The president and Mrs. Bush join people all across the world who are praying for the holy father. He is in our thoughts and prayers at this time." He goes on to say, "The outpouring of love and concern from so many, including millions of Americans, is testimony to his greatness."
Now, President Bush last met with the pope last June in Rome at the Vatican. They sat together privately just for about 15 minutes or so. It was the third time that the president had met with the pope since he had become president, but significantly and arguably perhaps the most important meeting.
This was the first meeting after the U.S. had invaded Iraq. President Bush, again, had some sluggish numbers when it came to job approval for both home and abroad. There were thousands of protesters that were on the streets of Rome. And, of course, the pontiff made it very clear that he was against the U.S. invasion in Iraq but, nevertheless, he did encourage the United States and Europe to put their differences behind them. He also said as well, the focus now should be on the United States and the rest of the world making sure that there is peace in the greater Middle East between Israelis and Palestinians.
President Bush, of course, honoring him as well with a presidential award, the highest civilian award that he could give to the pope, a civilian. Also saying, of course, that he believed that this was a man of great moral authority.
There was some criticism and even some questions at the time of the visit -- it was just five months before Election Day -- whether or not it was politically motivated. Because, of course, there was that battle over the Catholic vote. But White House officials vehemently deny that, saying that this was an opportunity for the president to meet a man of high moral standing -- Bill.
HEMMER: The other thing, Suzanne, as we go through this, and we'll talk about it a bit more later, about the culture of life and the issue of stem cell research and human embryos. And we'll try and parallel the two opinions with the president and the pope on this a bit later. Thanks.
Here's Carol again.
COSTELLO: There's been no official statement from the Vatican for a few hours now. But so far, it has released a surprising amount of information on the pope's condition. Robert Moynihan is the editor in chief of "Inside the Vatican." He joins us now live from Rome.
Good morning, once again.
ROBERT MOYNIHAN, EDITOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN": Good morning.
COSTELLO: You know, the pope's very serious health problems seems to have begun on January 31st, when the Vatican came out and said he was suffering from the flu. Was it always more serious than that, you think?
MOYNIHAN: It was more serious on that occasion than they told us, because, as they took him to the hospital that night, he was nearly dead. And we reported that, actually.
The Vatican has seen from that time on, I think, that there was going to be a decline setting in. And they've tried to carry through February and March as quietly and methodically as possible. And -- yes?
COSTELLO: Yet the pope insisted upon appearing at window, waving to the crowd. He tried to speak on Easter Sunday. Might he have been pushing himself too hard?
MOYNIHAN: Yes, I think he -- I think repeatedly in February and in March, he pushed himself and exhausted himself. And he probably could have had some more time if he hadn't done that.
COSTELLO: Could anyone stop him?
MOYNIHAN: Not easily, no.
COSTELLO: You listened to a very moving press conference at 5:30 Eastern this morning. What did you take away from that?
MOYNIHAN: I have never seen Joaquin Navarro-Valls, Dr. Navarro- Valls, the Vatican press officer who I've known for many years, so emotionally moved. And that persuaded me of the gravity of the situation. He had tears in his eyes.
I still would say we do not know what the final result is. And he's taking antibiotics, and perhaps they'll get his fever under control and this will continue. But when Navarro-Valls was crying this morning, I changed my view of the situation.
COSTELLO: And there we see a picture of him now. Inside the Vatican apartments, what might be happening?
MOYNIHAN: People -- there's no doubt that the pope has been in prayer, and people have been praying with him. The idea is that his entire life is culminating now with this death, and if it comes now or in the future. But he's been praying and meditating and received the last rites, and he is praying that god's will be done, and that what he has done for the church and for the world has been god's will, and that will continue, and whoever is chosen to succeed him, in the midst of many great difficulties.
COSTELLO: There is also going to be a mass held at St. John. It's going to be presided over by a cardinal who would announce the pope's death. If indeed that happens, that's significant as well, isn't it?
MOYNIHAN: Camillo Ruini, he's a very, very strong, intelligent cardinal, the pope's vicar for Rome. He's been leading a battle in Italy on things like stem cell research and raised a lot of eyebrows around the Church with the very strong and, in fact, clever way in which he's managed the campaign through the pages of the Italian bishop's conference newspaper, Avanire (ph).
So Ruini is an important leader in the Church, and very close to the pope. And that he's having a mass in just a few minutes in St. John Lateran, which for centuries was the residence of the pope, which is across the city from the Vatican. It's an important, symbolic thing, and possibly there could even be an announcement.
COSTELLO: Robert Moynihan, editor in chief of "Inside the Vatican," joining us again this morning. We appreciate it.
Over to Kelly Wallace now with some others headlines this morning.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Carol. And good morning, again everyone. Here are some stories "Now in the News." Terri Schiavo's death has apparently not ended the feud between her family. Differences between the sides extend to burial arrangements.
Michael Schiavo wants his wife cremated and taken to Pennsylvania. The Schindlers want their daughter buried in Florida. Following an autopsy, Terri Schiavo's body is expected to be released to her husband, and that could happen possibly later today.
Rescuers in Indonesia are fanning out to remote villages to look for survivors from Monday's earthquake. Crews say they are giving up the search in a main city considered the worst affected area of the 8.7 quake. International aid officials say it's not likely they will find any more survivors there. Some 600 people are now confirmed dead.
Former national security adviser Sandy Berger expected to plead guilty today to a misdemeanor charge of removing classified documents from the National Archives. At issue, files about the government's anti-terror efforts leading up to the September 11 attacks. If accepted, the plea could keep him from doing any jail time. Berger denies any wrongdoing.
And ABC veteran newsman Ted Koppel is signing off after a quarter of a century with "Nightline." Ted Koppel is planning to leave the anchor chair. His contract set to expire at the end of the year. No word on his future plans.
But I can tell you, I was watching ABC "World News Tonight" last night, and they said that Ted Koppel's retirement, not an option.
HEMMER: He'll pop up somewhere, right?
WALLACE: He will. I bet you he will.
HEMMER: Thanks, Kelly.
WALLACE: Sure.
COSTELLO: Thanks, Kelly.
So many great memories of the pope this morning. Remember this one, about three years ago, when he welcomed break dancers into the Vatican to show off their moves? This pope even as his health was beginning to fail, so full of vitality and excitement about the world and all there is to see in it.
Everyone will tell you John Paul II loved young people, always seeking them out. No doubt they are among those many people around the world praying for him today.
HEMMER: You're going to try that stuff on a marble floor, you're going to need his blessing too.
COSTELLO: True.
HEMMER: All right, Carol.
Let's get back to Rome in a moment here. First, to a commercial break.
Keeping a very close eye on the news out of Vatican, awaiting for more word, any sign on the condition for the pope. John Allen standing by. We'll get to John after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HEMMER: Welcome back to our expanded coverage here of the latest news on the pope and our special edition here of AMERICAN MORNING. 11:20 here in New York, 6:20 there in the Vatican.
Watching the bedroom window of Pope John Paul II and waiting now, as so many around the world are at this point, for any update on his condition and how he is doing. Said to be deep anxiety, too, among officials at the Vatican.
Even though the Vatican has been unusually generous with information today, especially when you compare it to past history, we're still left now to try and interpret the signs. And our Vatican analyst, John Allen, does that as well as anyone.
John, it's about an hour since we've spoken. Have you noticed anything new around the area, any signs that you're left to interpret?
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: No, Bill. I think the really only visible change that we've seen is the steady acceleration of foot traffic. That is, people walking up to join the crowd in the St. Peter's Square has steadily increased.
Of course it's now early evening Rome time, people leaving work. Of course the news has been filtering throughout Rome all day that the pope is facing a very serious situation.
But in terms of movement inside the Vatican, there hasn't been much to see. We are, of course, expecting that there will be some kind of statement from the Vatican later on. But probably not until there is something to say. That is, not until there is a distinct and noticeable either upturn or downturn in the pope's condition.
I think probably Sanjay Gupta had it right for you guys a few moments ago when he said that right now the situation may simply be too fluid for the Vatican to really be able to tell us anything meaningful about it.
HEMMER: The one thing they did say several hours ago is that the pope chose to remain in his residence there in Vatican City as opposed to going back to the hospital, Gemelli hospital, which he has done twice now going back to the 1st of February.
Here is a man who has traveled the world more extensively than any pope in history. And now he is resting inside the papal residency. 129 countries -- Africa is the place he has visited the most in terms of continents. But in terms of countries, Poland nine times, the U.S. seven times, France seven times as well.
John, what was it within this man that he felt such a desire and a need to spread the message of his own papacy and the Church wherever he could find it throughout the world?
ALLEN: Bill, I think that's a terrific question, because I think it cuts to the core of trying to get a handle around who this man really was.
I think, first of all, this is a pope who has an enormous love for crowds and an enormous love for people. And I think the idea of being physically present to people has been always been exceptionally important to him. In fact, I once said that if you wanted to hasten John Paul's decline, the most effective means you can imagine is to strap him behind a desk in the Vatican. Because I think it's always clear that he gained strength from crowds, especially young people.
Secondly, this pope is very much an evangelist. He's believed that, you know, the old model that the pope lives in splendid isolation in Rome and the world comes to him simply doesn't work for him. That, in effect, he needed to take the papacy show on the road. And obviously he's done that with abandon.
And third, I think he felt that in the period after the Second Vatican Council in the mid '60s in the Catholic Church, there was a little too much emphasis in his mind on the local church and not enough on the idea of all the world's 1.1 billion Catholics being united as a single family of faith. And his solution to that was to get them to feel a deep personal connection with the pope by meeting them where they live. And I think all of that put together explains why he has been such a peripatetic globe-trotting pope.
HEMMER: John, thanks. John Allen, our Vatican analyst, just outside of St. Peter's Square.
Again, still watching and waiting for word out of Rome as we watch the pilgrims gather there in St. Peter's Square. We also watch the window in the upper right-hand corner, the bedroom of Pope John Paul II.
The latest in a moment here on this expanded version of AMERICAN MORNING.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSTELLO: And welcome back to this expanded version of AMERICAN MORNING.
We are watching and waiting for news of Pope John Paul II's health. Vatican officials preparing a special church service within the hour.
At last word, the pope's condition called very grave. But the pope appears very serene as well. He will not leave the Vatican for the hospital.
People in Poland, the pope's birthplace, are flocking to churches to offer their prayers.
Father James McCann of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops joins us now live from Washington. Father McCann is an authority in the Church in central and eastern Europe.
Good morning to you, sir.
FATHER JAMES MCCANN, U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: Good morning.
COSTELLO: The pope was born in Poland, he experienced communism, he experienced Nazism, and he also faced the challenge of being a Catholic priest in a communist state. Tell us about that.
MCCANN: Well, I think, you know, what's most interesting is he grew up in a Poland that was multinational. And as a young man he met people of different nationalities, different religions. I think that had a profound effect on his life.
He also grew up in a time of war. And it affected very much his whole point of view on the need for security, long-lasting peace. And I see him as someone of a reconciler, someone who builds peace. And it comes from that background in those difficult situations that he found himself.
COSTELLO: He's also a very strong -- he's a very tough man. In fact, many say he played a part in the downfall of communism.
MCCANN: That certainly -- he certainly was a catalyst for that. And the history has yet to be written, but I think that it will be seen that he had a very dramatic effect on that.
COSTELLO: In fact, one our analysts this morning said he told the men of Poland to stand up against communism, not to crawl on their bellies. Tough words coming from a man of the cloth.
MCCANN: Very much so. And I think at the basis of all that is his tremendous respect for every individual, for every human being. And based on that respect comes a whole range of things. Certainly his idea of rights, his idea of the need for freedom, his idea for the need to build a lasting peace.
COSTELLO: You talked about how his birthplace shaped his views on war. Everybody knows he came out against the war in Iraq.
MCCANN: Yes, very much so, and very outspoken on these issues. And again, his whole idea, the building of peace, and trying to build reconciliation wherever possible. Always open to anyone, wherever they came from. Always sensitive to the rights of every individual, regardless of what religion, what background, what ethnicity.
COSTELLO: Yes, but tell us how he managed to do that. Because he was the first priest to go into a synagogue. He had a very good relationship with Jewish people. How did he manage to accomplish that? MCCANN: It goes back to his childhood experiences. The landlord in the house where he lived as a child, the landlord was Jewish. He had excellent relations all through his life, a fascination with Judaism. He knew people who went to the camps.
Much of it has to do with his own personal background. But again, that tremendous respect for one and all, I think that's what's so striking. An openness to the world, to other religion traditions, an openness to of all of creation.
COSTELLO: If he cannot continue in his role as pope, will there be another like him?
MCCANN: Who knows? This tremendous way he's had of the universality, the sensitivity to the universality of the Church, an openness, retaining the identity of Catholicism, of the Catholic church, while being open to everyone else, being open to the world, that's -- those are hard shoes to fill.
COSTELLO: Definitely so. Father James McCann, thank you for joining us this morning.
MCCANN: Thanks very much.
HEMMER: It is 11:30 here in New York now. We want to update you right now as we reset here at the half-hour what we know, what we're learning from the Vatican.
Pope John Paul II, his health taking another turn for the worse. Said to be in grave condition as of six hours ago.
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Aired April 1, 2005 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: By the hundreds of millions, the faithful praying this morning for Pope John Paul II, awaiting any word or even any sign of his condition. This as the pope battles the most severe health crisis of his life. His story is our story on this AMERICAN MORNING.
ANNOUNCER: From the CNN Broadcast Center in New York, this is AMERICAN MORNING with Bill Hemmer and Soledad O'Brien.
HEMMER: Good morning. 11:00 here in New York. Welcome to our expanded edition of AMERICAN MORNING as our coverage continues from New York and the Vatican.
I'm Bill Hemmer. Soledad is off today.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm in for Soledad. I'm Carol Costello. Good morning.
HEMMER: We're watching the latest, Carol, from the Vatican. Pope John Paul II has been fighting for his life all day. The Vatican about 5.5 hours ago saying that he was serene at this time. And as evening falls there in Italy, we're watching for any signs of any change in his condition.
Jim Bittermann is back with us from Rome as we start this new hour here on AMERICAN MORNING.
And Jim, I think for the sake of our viewers who might be just joining us right now, you have seen over the past six or seven hours a flurry of activity throughout the Vatican. If you could, maybe take us through these steps. Tick them off for us and the significance there.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In fact, it's been a tumultuous day here in terms of Vatican press releases. We're watching the close of the day now, but the day is not really over. There's a few things coming up yet.
But during the course of the day, we heard first that the pope was in very grave condition, that he suffered a cardiocirculatory collapse overnight. That means his blood flow was restricted.
The papal spokesman told us that in fact his blood pressure is unstable, that his medical condition, medical parameters had been altered is the way the papal spokesman put it. He's a medical doctor, so he uses medical language sometimes. But he got very emotional in the course of that news conference as he was describing the pope's condition and actually broke into tears at one point, when asked how personally he felt about it.
He's been with the pope for 26 years both as a reporter for one of the local newspapers and then later as the papal spokesman. He and a number of other people now have changed the focus from St. Peter's Square briefly to the Church of St. John's in Lateran, which is across town.
And about an hour from now, there will be a special mass by Cardinal Camillo Ruini, who is one of three people who actually keeps his job in the event of the passing of the pope. He is the vicar of Rome. And as such, he will conduct a mass in about an hour from now. And he's asked all Italians and all Catholics to pray for the health of the pope.
It's expected that they're going to use a rite, a particular Roman Catholic mass that's actually designed for the sickness of the pope, and that's expected -- we believe that's the mass that's going to be celebrated just about an hour from now -- Bill.
HEMMER: The significance of this too, Jim, it was about two hours ago the Vatican released a statement saying the pope had appointed 17 new bishops and archbishops and also accepted the resignation of a half a dozen others. Is this -- is this normal format for as close as normal can be at this point?
BITTERMANN: Well, I don't think anything is very normal at this point. Over the course of the last month, the pope has appointed 29 bishops, and then named 17 more today. So 46 bishops in total. Of course, thousands around the world, and there are vacancies everywhere that need to be filled.
The pope has to sign off on each one of these appointments and each one of the resignations in some fashion. He has to indicate his approval.
So one of the things it indicates is that some time in the near recent past the pope was able to do that. What we've heard about his medical condition today is it seems very unlikely that this list was approved during the day today.
But in any case, the Vatican issued that list, perhaps to indicate that the pope is continuing at the helm in the Vatican, or perhaps because they wanted to get this list out before any announcement of his death took place. And certainly we'll look out indeed if bishops were being named after the pope's death had been announced -- Bill.
HEMMER: Jim Bittermann. Jim Bittermann, thanks there in Rome.
Just about 6:00 in the evening there in Rome. Night starting to set in there. It's been 5.5 hours since we had any official word from the Vatican -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Yes. I wanted to ask Sanjay about that actually. Let's head live to Atlanta and check in with Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
It has been 5.5 hours since we've had any word on the pope's condition. Should we read anything into this?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, it's hard to say clearly. I think one of two things.
One is that they're just not releasing any information for the time being. Or two, is that the situation is still too dynamic, too much influx to be able to say for sure how he's doing.
My guess that, you know, when someone is of this age and with this sort of list now of preexisting medical conditions, it's a very tenuous situation. Meaning it could literally change minute to minute -- Carol.
COSTELLO: Also, his spokesman came out, tears in his eyes. He described the pope as being lucid and serene. How might the pope look at this point, Sanjay?
GUPTA: Well, you know, we talked about lucid before. You know, sort of putting it all together, looking at the statement in terms of how they're describing the pope as lucid, conscious, but also with an unstable blood pressure, and things being not that stable in terms of condition becoming more serious, it doesn't all fit together, to be perfectly candid.
Carol, I think that the -- when you say someone is lucid, that usually means they are awake, they're able to understand you, carry on their daily duties. All of that. Obviously, with this degree of medical illness, that's probably not likely.
So I'm not sure why the inconsistency, but it does seem a bit inconsistent -- Carol?
COSTELLO: It does. An interesting statement from one of the analysts we had on this morning that the pope is dying from the feet up.
GUPTA: Yes. If you look at his history over the years, it is an interesting statement that he made. But what happened was he essentially became significantly debilitated.
He used to be so active, and then he became significantly debilitated probably now for several years. The Parkinson's disease certainly has made him immobile. And over time, the mobility has crept up not only into his legs, but also into his arms.
Eventually, Parkinson's disease -- people don't realize this -- can also affect other muscles, including the muscles around the upper airway, which may have led in part to some of the difficulties that he had breathing. And now, with the infection and everything going on, the Parkinson's disease is certainly adding to that as well -- Carol.
COSTELLO: And I was going to ask you about the condition of his organs from what happened to him this morning.
GUPTA: Yes. You know, that's a -- that's a good question. And let me give you a little bit of a timeline here of how things have developed really over the last 12 hours.
You know, we heard yesterday -- this is all in Eastern Time -- well, first, Wednesday morning that the nasal feeding tube was inserted. Then Thursday, around the afternoon, the blood pressure dropped. That was the first thing. And then shortly after that, we hear that he had the urinary tract infection, high fever, and then the antibiotics were administered as well.
Later on that night we actually heard that his condition had stabilized, suggesting a couple of things. One is that maybe his condition did stabilize, but also that he may have been unstable before that. But then a sudden change after that, very serious septic shock.
You know, we all heard about that early this morning, cardiocirculatory collapse. What that means is probably not enough blood flow to his organs. So it wouldn't surprise me at all, Carol, answering your question, if his organs, including his kidneys, his liver, perhaps his brain as well, have had a significant deprivation, a lack, if you will, of blood to them for some time.
COSTELLO: Sanjay, thank you -- Bill.
GUPTA: Thank you.
HEMMER: All right, Carol. Reaction now from the White House as well of the pope's grave condition. Suzanne Malveaux is down there at the White House.
What is the reaction, Suzanne? About two hours ago we had heard that the president was praying for the pope. What do we have now?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Bill, that's absolutely right. The president, of course, has been receiving updates on the pope's condition from his chief of staff, Andy Card.
It was about 7:30 last night at the residence, as well as this morning in the Oval Office. His spokesman, Scott McClellan, came out earlier this morning delivering a message from the president, saying -- I'm quoting here -- "The president and Mrs. Bush join people all across the world who are praying for the holy father. He is in our thoughts and prayers at this time." He goes on to say, "The outpouring of love and concern from so many, including millions of Americans, is testimony to his greatness."
Now, President Bush last met with the pope last June in Rome at the Vatican. They sat together privately just for about 15 minutes or so. It was the third time that the president had met with the pope since he had become president, but significantly and arguably perhaps the most important meeting.
This was the first meeting after the U.S. had invaded Iraq. President Bush, again, had some sluggish numbers when it came to job approval for both home and abroad. There were thousands of protesters that were on the streets of Rome. And, of course, the pontiff made it very clear that he was against the U.S. invasion in Iraq but, nevertheless, he did encourage the United States and Europe to put their differences behind them. He also said as well, the focus now should be on the United States and the rest of the world making sure that there is peace in the greater Middle East between Israelis and Palestinians.
President Bush, of course, honoring him as well with a presidential award, the highest civilian award that he could give to the pope, a civilian. Also saying, of course, that he believed that this was a man of great moral authority.
There was some criticism and even some questions at the time of the visit -- it was just five months before Election Day -- whether or not it was politically motivated. Because, of course, there was that battle over the Catholic vote. But White House officials vehemently deny that, saying that this was an opportunity for the president to meet a man of high moral standing -- Bill.
HEMMER: The other thing, Suzanne, as we go through this, and we'll talk about it a bit more later, about the culture of life and the issue of stem cell research and human embryos. And we'll try and parallel the two opinions with the president and the pope on this a bit later. Thanks.
Here's Carol again.
COSTELLO: There's been no official statement from the Vatican for a few hours now. But so far, it has released a surprising amount of information on the pope's condition. Robert Moynihan is the editor in chief of "Inside the Vatican." He joins us now live from Rome.
Good morning, once again.
ROBERT MOYNIHAN, EDITOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN": Good morning.
COSTELLO: You know, the pope's very serious health problems seems to have begun on January 31st, when the Vatican came out and said he was suffering from the flu. Was it always more serious than that, you think?
MOYNIHAN: It was more serious on that occasion than they told us, because, as they took him to the hospital that night, he was nearly dead. And we reported that, actually.
The Vatican has seen from that time on, I think, that there was going to be a decline setting in. And they've tried to carry through February and March as quietly and methodically as possible. And -- yes?
COSTELLO: Yet the pope insisted upon appearing at window, waving to the crowd. He tried to speak on Easter Sunday. Might he have been pushing himself too hard?
MOYNIHAN: Yes, I think he -- I think repeatedly in February and in March, he pushed himself and exhausted himself. And he probably could have had some more time if he hadn't done that.
COSTELLO: Could anyone stop him?
MOYNIHAN: Not easily, no.
COSTELLO: You listened to a very moving press conference at 5:30 Eastern this morning. What did you take away from that?
MOYNIHAN: I have never seen Joaquin Navarro-Valls, Dr. Navarro- Valls, the Vatican press officer who I've known for many years, so emotionally moved. And that persuaded me of the gravity of the situation. He had tears in his eyes.
I still would say we do not know what the final result is. And he's taking antibiotics, and perhaps they'll get his fever under control and this will continue. But when Navarro-Valls was crying this morning, I changed my view of the situation.
COSTELLO: And there we see a picture of him now. Inside the Vatican apartments, what might be happening?
MOYNIHAN: People -- there's no doubt that the pope has been in prayer, and people have been praying with him. The idea is that his entire life is culminating now with this death, and if it comes now or in the future. But he's been praying and meditating and received the last rites, and he is praying that god's will be done, and that what he has done for the church and for the world has been god's will, and that will continue, and whoever is chosen to succeed him, in the midst of many great difficulties.
COSTELLO: There is also going to be a mass held at St. John. It's going to be presided over by a cardinal who would announce the pope's death. If indeed that happens, that's significant as well, isn't it?
MOYNIHAN: Camillo Ruini, he's a very, very strong, intelligent cardinal, the pope's vicar for Rome. He's been leading a battle in Italy on things like stem cell research and raised a lot of eyebrows around the Church with the very strong and, in fact, clever way in which he's managed the campaign through the pages of the Italian bishop's conference newspaper, Avanire (ph).
So Ruini is an important leader in the Church, and very close to the pope. And that he's having a mass in just a few minutes in St. John Lateran, which for centuries was the residence of the pope, which is across the city from the Vatican. It's an important, symbolic thing, and possibly there could even be an announcement.
COSTELLO: Robert Moynihan, editor in chief of "Inside the Vatican," joining us again this morning. We appreciate it.
Over to Kelly Wallace now with some others headlines this morning.
KELLY WALLACE, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Carol. And good morning, again everyone. Here are some stories "Now in the News." Terri Schiavo's death has apparently not ended the feud between her family. Differences between the sides extend to burial arrangements.
Michael Schiavo wants his wife cremated and taken to Pennsylvania. The Schindlers want their daughter buried in Florida. Following an autopsy, Terri Schiavo's body is expected to be released to her husband, and that could happen possibly later today.
Rescuers in Indonesia are fanning out to remote villages to look for survivors from Monday's earthquake. Crews say they are giving up the search in a main city considered the worst affected area of the 8.7 quake. International aid officials say it's not likely they will find any more survivors there. Some 600 people are now confirmed dead.
Former national security adviser Sandy Berger expected to plead guilty today to a misdemeanor charge of removing classified documents from the National Archives. At issue, files about the government's anti-terror efforts leading up to the September 11 attacks. If accepted, the plea could keep him from doing any jail time. Berger denies any wrongdoing.
And ABC veteran newsman Ted Koppel is signing off after a quarter of a century with "Nightline." Ted Koppel is planning to leave the anchor chair. His contract set to expire at the end of the year. No word on his future plans.
But I can tell you, I was watching ABC "World News Tonight" last night, and they said that Ted Koppel's retirement, not an option.
HEMMER: He'll pop up somewhere, right?
WALLACE: He will. I bet you he will.
HEMMER: Thanks, Kelly.
WALLACE: Sure.
COSTELLO: Thanks, Kelly.
So many great memories of the pope this morning. Remember this one, about three years ago, when he welcomed break dancers into the Vatican to show off their moves? This pope even as his health was beginning to fail, so full of vitality and excitement about the world and all there is to see in it.
Everyone will tell you John Paul II loved young people, always seeking them out. No doubt they are among those many people around the world praying for him today.
HEMMER: You're going to try that stuff on a marble floor, you're going to need his blessing too.
COSTELLO: True.
HEMMER: All right, Carol.
Let's get back to Rome in a moment here. First, to a commercial break.
Keeping a very close eye on the news out of Vatican, awaiting for more word, any sign on the condition for the pope. John Allen standing by. We'll get to John after the break.
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HEMMER: Welcome back to our expanded coverage here of the latest news on the pope and our special edition here of AMERICAN MORNING. 11:20 here in New York, 6:20 there in the Vatican.
Watching the bedroom window of Pope John Paul II and waiting now, as so many around the world are at this point, for any update on his condition and how he is doing. Said to be deep anxiety, too, among officials at the Vatican.
Even though the Vatican has been unusually generous with information today, especially when you compare it to past history, we're still left now to try and interpret the signs. And our Vatican analyst, John Allen, does that as well as anyone.
John, it's about an hour since we've spoken. Have you noticed anything new around the area, any signs that you're left to interpret?
JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: No, Bill. I think the really only visible change that we've seen is the steady acceleration of foot traffic. That is, people walking up to join the crowd in the St. Peter's Square has steadily increased.
Of course it's now early evening Rome time, people leaving work. Of course the news has been filtering throughout Rome all day that the pope is facing a very serious situation.
But in terms of movement inside the Vatican, there hasn't been much to see. We are, of course, expecting that there will be some kind of statement from the Vatican later on. But probably not until there is something to say. That is, not until there is a distinct and noticeable either upturn or downturn in the pope's condition.
I think probably Sanjay Gupta had it right for you guys a few moments ago when he said that right now the situation may simply be too fluid for the Vatican to really be able to tell us anything meaningful about it.
HEMMER: The one thing they did say several hours ago is that the pope chose to remain in his residence there in Vatican City as opposed to going back to the hospital, Gemelli hospital, which he has done twice now going back to the 1st of February.
Here is a man who has traveled the world more extensively than any pope in history. And now he is resting inside the papal residency. 129 countries -- Africa is the place he has visited the most in terms of continents. But in terms of countries, Poland nine times, the U.S. seven times, France seven times as well.
John, what was it within this man that he felt such a desire and a need to spread the message of his own papacy and the Church wherever he could find it throughout the world?
ALLEN: Bill, I think that's a terrific question, because I think it cuts to the core of trying to get a handle around who this man really was.
I think, first of all, this is a pope who has an enormous love for crowds and an enormous love for people. And I think the idea of being physically present to people has been always been exceptionally important to him. In fact, I once said that if you wanted to hasten John Paul's decline, the most effective means you can imagine is to strap him behind a desk in the Vatican. Because I think it's always clear that he gained strength from crowds, especially young people.
Secondly, this pope is very much an evangelist. He's believed that, you know, the old model that the pope lives in splendid isolation in Rome and the world comes to him simply doesn't work for him. That, in effect, he needed to take the papacy show on the road. And obviously he's done that with abandon.
And third, I think he felt that in the period after the Second Vatican Council in the mid '60s in the Catholic Church, there was a little too much emphasis in his mind on the local church and not enough on the idea of all the world's 1.1 billion Catholics being united as a single family of faith. And his solution to that was to get them to feel a deep personal connection with the pope by meeting them where they live. And I think all of that put together explains why he has been such a peripatetic globe-trotting pope.
HEMMER: John, thanks. John Allen, our Vatican analyst, just outside of St. Peter's Square.
Again, still watching and waiting for word out of Rome as we watch the pilgrims gather there in St. Peter's Square. We also watch the window in the upper right-hand corner, the bedroom of Pope John Paul II.
The latest in a moment here on this expanded version of AMERICAN MORNING.
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COSTELLO: And welcome back to this expanded version of AMERICAN MORNING.
We are watching and waiting for news of Pope John Paul II's health. Vatican officials preparing a special church service within the hour.
At last word, the pope's condition called very grave. But the pope appears very serene as well. He will not leave the Vatican for the hospital.
People in Poland, the pope's birthplace, are flocking to churches to offer their prayers.
Father James McCann of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops joins us now live from Washington. Father McCann is an authority in the Church in central and eastern Europe.
Good morning to you, sir.
FATHER JAMES MCCANN, U.S. CONFERENCE OF CATHOLIC BISHOPS: Good morning.
COSTELLO: The pope was born in Poland, he experienced communism, he experienced Nazism, and he also faced the challenge of being a Catholic priest in a communist state. Tell us about that.
MCCANN: Well, I think, you know, what's most interesting is he grew up in a Poland that was multinational. And as a young man he met people of different nationalities, different religions. I think that had a profound effect on his life.
He also grew up in a time of war. And it affected very much his whole point of view on the need for security, long-lasting peace. And I see him as someone of a reconciler, someone who builds peace. And it comes from that background in those difficult situations that he found himself.
COSTELLO: He's also a very strong -- he's a very tough man. In fact, many say he played a part in the downfall of communism.
MCCANN: That certainly -- he certainly was a catalyst for that. And the history has yet to be written, but I think that it will be seen that he had a very dramatic effect on that.
COSTELLO: In fact, one our analysts this morning said he told the men of Poland to stand up against communism, not to crawl on their bellies. Tough words coming from a man of the cloth.
MCCANN: Very much so. And I think at the basis of all that is his tremendous respect for every individual, for every human being. And based on that respect comes a whole range of things. Certainly his idea of rights, his idea of the need for freedom, his idea for the need to build a lasting peace.
COSTELLO: You talked about how his birthplace shaped his views on war. Everybody knows he came out against the war in Iraq.
MCCANN: Yes, very much so, and very outspoken on these issues. And again, his whole idea, the building of peace, and trying to build reconciliation wherever possible. Always open to anyone, wherever they came from. Always sensitive to the rights of every individual, regardless of what religion, what background, what ethnicity.
COSTELLO: Yes, but tell us how he managed to do that. Because he was the first priest to go into a synagogue. He had a very good relationship with Jewish people. How did he manage to accomplish that? MCCANN: It goes back to his childhood experiences. The landlord in the house where he lived as a child, the landlord was Jewish. He had excellent relations all through his life, a fascination with Judaism. He knew people who went to the camps.
Much of it has to do with his own personal background. But again, that tremendous respect for one and all, I think that's what's so striking. An openness to the world, to other religion traditions, an openness to of all of creation.
COSTELLO: If he cannot continue in his role as pope, will there be another like him?
MCCANN: Who knows? This tremendous way he's had of the universality, the sensitivity to the universality of the Church, an openness, retaining the identity of Catholicism, of the Catholic church, while being open to everyone else, being open to the world, that's -- those are hard shoes to fill.
COSTELLO: Definitely so. Father James McCann, thank you for joining us this morning.
MCCANN: Thanks very much.
HEMMER: It is 11:30 here in New York now. We want to update you right now as we reset here at the half-hour what we know, what we're learning from the Vatican.
Pope John Paul II, his health taking another turn for the worse. Said to be in grave condition as of six hours ago.
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