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Nancy Grace
Pope John Paul II Believed to Be Near Death
Aired April 01, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, it is 3:00 a.m. in Vatican City. The world is waiting for news of Pope John Paul II, gravely ill, believed to be approaching his final hours. Thousands are gathered even now in St. Peter`s Square praying and hoping for a miracle. The Pope lies in the papal apartment surrounded by his closest aides. Millions of the faithful all over the world offer prayers for the Holy Father.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I thank you for being with us tonight.
Pope John Paul II, gravely ill, is resting quietly in his private residence in the Vatican. The lights, as you see them, top two lights on the right in his apartment, still burning bright. The pontiff said to be serene, even peaceful. Loyal aides surrounding him, attending him.
Tonight, in L.A., St. Anthony`s church pastor, Father Michael Manning; in Washington, from Catholic University, Dean Jude Dougherty; and theology professor, Monsignor Kevin Irwin; also in Washington, from the U.S. Conference Bishops` Secretariat of the Liturgy, Monsignor James Maroney; in New York, Newsweek senior editor, Lisa Miller.
Also with us, of course, CNN correspondent Walt Rodgers joining us from Rome. Let`s go first to Walt.
Walt, please, give me the latest.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, regrettably, Pope John Paul II is hovering between life and death and perilously close to the latter. The latest medical bulletin we had several hours ago said that his heart was failing, his kidneys are failing, his breathing is shallow.
All day, for the past 24 hours, Vatican officials appear to be preparing the public, 1.1 billion Roman Catholics around the world, for the end. It announced that cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church went to the Pope`s bedside to say goodbye to the pontiff.
Also, there was a very important mass in St. Peter`s Basilica itself, in which the Vicar of Rome, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, said that he believes Pope John Paul II has now seen and touched the Christ, a very telling statement.
Additionally, earlier in the day, it was believed Pope John Paul II was lucid at the time. And he was warned by some of his friends and doctors of the gravity of his medical situation. You know, he chose to remain in the Vatican rather than go back to hospital this time.
The Pope is said to have requested earlier in the day that someone read him the scripture on the third hour, the third hour being the comparable time during Jesus` crucifixion when he gave up the ghost, traditionally 3 o`clock in the afternoon. The Pope clearly is well-aware, or was well-aware earlier in the day, of his own situation.
What`s most interesting now, of course, is that so many people have gathered in St. Peter`s Square, 70,000 at one point earlier this evening, and they`re the ones that seem to have the greatest hope. The Vatican itself is sending out signals which are clearly pessimistic -- Nancy?
GRACE: Walt, behind you, I believe where you`re standing, is the papal apartment. Are we correct that the two lights on at the top right are the Holy Father`s apartment?
RODGERS: That is correct. Those are the windows -- one of those is the window in which he appears when he gives his Sunday Angelus. Now, of course, he would not be in there with those lights on at this moment. But that is his papal apartment, and the window lights you see are coming from what is called the papal study or the papal library -- Nancy?
GRACE: As you know now, thousands have gathered in St. Peter`s Square. That is a live shot we are showing you as we wait for word on the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, known in his home language of Karol Wojtyla.
Here in the studio with me, a face you know well, Lisa Miller. She is the senior editor at Newsweek.
Lisa, first, we heard the Pope was dead. Then we heard, no, that`s incorrect. Now, we are hearing back and forth, and back and forth. Why?
LISA MILLER, NEWSWEEK: I mean, I think nobody knows. I think that everybody`s watching and waiting for word from the Vatican. The Vatican will tell people when the time is right. And then we`ll know.
GRACE: You say when the time is right, when the time is right. Why would they keep that from the public? There`s a billion -- I believe it`s 1,070,000,000 Catholics worldwide that are waiting to hear word.
MILLER: There`s no reason to assume that they`re not telling the truth. I think, you know, they`re watching. And it`s a worldwide vigil. And when they feel the time is right, they`ll tell us.
GRACE: Let me go to Father Michael Manning. He`s a pastor at St. Anthony`s Church.
Father, don`t you think it`s true that this Pope, John Paul II, helped topple communism?
FATHER MICHAEL MANNING, PASTOR ST. ANTHONY`S CHURCH: Very much so. I think that with his courage and his simple statement of being present and saying to the Polish people, "Go ahead, embrace freedom," just a simple word like that from a man where there was a Catholic country, oh, that moved people in a strong way to accept the challenge of being free.
GRACE: Let me go to Jude Dougherty. He`s professor emeritus at the school of philosophy, Catholic University.
Sir, tell me about when you first met the Pope.
JUDE DOUGHERTY, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: When I first met him, I saw some of the characteristics in the man that the world has witnessed over the last 25 years. And today, we`re witnessing the death of a valiant man who taught us how to live and is now teaching us how to die.
I think that`s part and parcel of his character. It was something that was evident the first time he was in Washington. As a matter of fact, I couldn`t conceive of anyone more worthy of the See of Peter than Karol Wojtyla, then Karol Archbishop of Krakow.
GRACE: Monsignor James Maroney is with us.
Monsignor, you were there when the Pope was named. You were there in St. Peter`s Square. Do you remember that moment?
MONSIGNOR JAMES MARONEY, U.S. CONFERENCE BISHOPS` SECRETARY OF THE LITURGY: I remember it very well, Nancy. And in fact, looking all day long at the large crowd gathered in St. Peter`s Square, at this, the end of the Holy Father`s papacy, brings me back to that moment.
In fact, Monsignor Irwin, who`s also with us tonight, was standing with me in the square that night. And as we were standing there, I think the image that comes to me the most is, when he took the name John Paul II, it was clear that he was taking both the qualities of good blessed Pope John XXIII of being a pastoral Pope, and at the same time taking the qualities of Pope Paul VI, who was very much the intellectual heart of the Second Vatican Council.
And when he came out on the balcony -- and I will never forget this, Nancy -- when he started, he began with the words (UNINTELLIGIBLE), "May Christ always be praised," the same words he used at the beginning of every address. And he quickly followed it by apologizing for his Italian not being up to par, which was a great exaggeration. His Italian was absolutely fine. But he won the hearts of the crowd just like the best pastor you have ever known, from that first moment to being bishop of Rome standing on that balcony.
GRACE: Let me go back to Walt Rodgers. Walt is a CNN correspondent. He`s standing by there in the Vatican City.
Walt, I know that that there are many ceremonies and formalities that must be completed upon the Pope`s death. Should that happen tonight, of course, there are thousands gathered there in St. Peter`s Square and around the world, praying and hoping for a miracle tonight.
Walt, what will happen upon the death of the Pope?
RODGERS: It`s a good question, Nancy. And what happens is the official announcement comes from Vatican radio. Then the cardinals begin to gather this first day in what`s called the interregnum. About the second day after the Pope has died, his body is prepared, he`s laid out in state in St. Peter`s Basilica in his papal robes.
Now, Vatican protocol, Vatican rules dictate that he can be buried any time after the -- or any time between the fourth, fifth and sixth day after his death.
But what most people will then ask is, when do the cardinals begin voting on a new Pope? And that by, again, protocol, tradition and law, Vatican law, states that the consideration of a new cardinal cannot begin until 15 days after the death of the cardinal who would have just passed away -- Nancy?
GRACE: Thank you, Walt.
We know that this particular Pope, Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla, is a mystic. He believes heavily in mysticism. That has been a signature of his being Pope.
Again, the Pope has had his last rites read to him. Millions standing by and praying and hoping for a miracle. Again, here in the studio with me, Newsweek senior editor, Lisa Miller.
Speaking of the process of electing a new Pope, how will that happen?
MILLER: So 15 days after the death of the Pope, the cardinals all convene on Rome. It`s 15 days because in the old days, it took two weeks, about two or three weeks, to get to Rome. And they get sequestered in the Vatican in a room next to the Sistine Chapel.
GRACE: About how many cardinals would converge?
MILLER: There are about 120, 130 cardinals right now. Cardinals over the age of 80 can`t vote. And so they all get together. And they are locked in a room. And they talk, and they vote, and they talk, and they vote. And a vote usually happens before 12 days.
GRACE: The vote, how does that take place? Nobody knows?
MILLER: Ballots. Well, there are ballots a couple of times in the morning, a couple of times in the afternoon. It`s a highly technical process. There are conversations. But this is not a political process. And so we can`t mistake it for a political process like we understand politics now. The Holy Spirit is involved.
GRACE: We are showing you a live shot of Vatican City. That is St. Peter`s Square. There have been up to 70,000 of the faithful hoping and praying for the miracle. Already it has been announced earlier erroneously that Pope John Paul II had passed away. A hush fell over St. Peter`s Square, as you see it, until that was corrected.
The two lights you see in the uppermost portion of the structure is the Pope`s private apartment. We see those lights burning. The Pope lying there, gravely ill, surrounded by the steadfast. Please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE JOHN PAUL II, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH: All human beings in every nation and country should be able to enjoy effectively their full rights under any political regime or system. Only the safeguarding of this real completeness of rights for every human being without discrimination can and should peace at its very roots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KOFI ANNAN, UNITED NATIONS SECRETARY-GENERAL: I pray for him as he has prayed for me and for peace. He is a man of peace. And he`s been a great supporter of the United Nations.
I recall very fondly my meetings with him. Particularly, sitting with him in his private quarters discussing the question of war and peace when we were thinking about what to do in Kosovo. And I could see he was not only a man of faith but a man who was also extremely concerned about the world we lived in. And like me, he also felt that, in war, all are losers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace.
Elizabeth, could you show me the live shot of St. Peter`s Square, please? We are standing by tonight bringing you the very latest. That`s all eyes on Rome, the papal city, the top two lights burning, that is the Pope`s private apartment. He is lying there near-death, surrounded by his aides.
Let me quickly go to CNN correspondent Walt Rodgers there in the papal city.
Walt, earlier, Italian news had reported that the Pope is dead. That was quickly corrected. Could it be possible, and is there any reason that the Vatican City would hide that from us?
RODGERS: Well, the Italian media does have a sometimes hasty approach to announcing things. What I need -- what we should point out is that the Vatican, throughout this whole experience of the Pope`s tremendous travail -- recall he was in hospital twice in February -- the Vatican has been really reasonably candid with us. They give you perhaps 20 percent of the news. The other 80 percent they don`t tell you, but that 20 percent has been accurate all along.
No one in the Vatican has misled us at all within the last 24 to 36 hours about the gravity and the seriousness of the Pope`s medical condition. Remember, this morning, or actually Friday morning -- it being Saturday here -- but remember they said the Pope was lucid then. Later in the day, when they issued their medical bulletin, that comment that the Pope was still lucid and conscious just was absent from the bulletin.
So the Vatican has actually been, I think, reasonably candid. And I don`t think they`ve misled us at all. There have been, as you point out, incidents of some rather frenetic reporting by some of the Italian media. But that`s in the nature of journalism in this part of the world. The American journalists tend to have a higher standard of truth and accuracy - - Nancy?
GRACE: To Lisa Miller, senior editor at Newsweek, has that been your experience?
MILLER: Yes, I think in the last 24 hours, the last couple of weeks, the Vatican has been incredibly forthcoming with information. The fact that Joaquin Navarro-Valls, who is the Pope`s spokesman, has left the press office open all night is incredibly unusual. The Vatican press office usually closes in the afternoon.
This is an example of how open they`re being about this. And this is a sad situation. And we don`t know exactly how it`s going to unfold, and there`s no reason to be suspicious of it.
GRACE: Joining us now, CNN`s senior medical reporter, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, welcome again tonight. Sanjay, many, many people, millions, are hoping for a miracle tonight. What can you tell us about the Pope`s condition?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It`s not looking good, Nancy, at all. In fact, I think by most accounts now, in terms of what we`ve been hearing from the Vatican, his overall medical condition probably irreversible at this point.
The last report we had was almost eight hours ago, a little over eight hours ago now, indicating that just about all the parameters that you could measure to try and assess what his health is all looked bad. And in fact, all of his organs being affected by this, as Walt Rodgers just mentioned. No longer any comments about his consciousness, his awareness, at all, which is just what you`d expect at sort of the end or last stages of septic shot, an overwhelming infection of the body.
So not good, Nancy. Not good at all.
GRACE: Septic shock. Explain.
GUPTA: Septic shock, so this infection they`ve been talking about, started in his urinary tract, in his bladder. When it becomes septic shock is when the bacteria actually leaves the bladder and gets into the bloodstream. Once it gets into the bloodstream, it can wreak all sorts of havoc, causing the blood pressure to drop, causing various important organs around in the body, including the kidneys, the liver, the brains, the heart itself, to not get enough blood flow. And that is where the problem really lies, Nancy.
GRACE: So Sanjay, you`re saying it started with a urinary tract infection and turned to septicemia?
GUPTA: Yes, that`s basically what I`m saying. It was a pretty significant urinary tract infection requiring antibiotics. At first, you remember, Nancy, they said it looks like it`s under control, it looks like he`s responding. And apparently, that wasn`t the case. This bacteria found its way into the bloodstream.
GRACE: I want to go to Monsignor Kevin Irwin. He is the professor of theology at Catholic University.
Monsignor, this Pope has lived through so much, a Nazi regime, an assassin`s bullet, a truck even hit him, and now this. What is his legacy?
MONSIGNOR KEVIN IRWIN, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: His legacy is that he`s made us more Catholic than we were before. He`s a man who`s of very, very broad scope. He`s traveled the whole world. And one of the names for Catholic is universal.
He`s brought the Catholic Church throughout all the continents of this world several times. He`s also a man of big picture. Jewish-Catholic relations could not be better. Under this pontificate it`s spurred on. He went to a synagogue in Rome. He went to the Holy Land, a big-picture person, Eastern Europe as you`ve mentioned. All of those things are the fact that he`s made us a very broad, large scope, wide-angle lens on reality Catholics.
GRACE: Pope John Paul II, a deep believer in Catholicism, mysticism. When he survived an assassin`s bullet, he took the bullet. And he went and put the bullet in the crown of the statue of the Virgin of Fatima. He believed that she had saved his life from the assassin.
As you can see, we are showing you a live shot of St. Peter`s Square. It is 3:20 a.m., the faithful still hanging on outside the Vatican. The top two lights, the Pope`s private apartment, where we lays now surrounded by his aides, praying for a miracle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, ARCHBISHOP OF WASHINGTON: Well, I think for the American Catholic community, he was an extraordinary gift. In a certain sense, he was American. He enjoyed people. He had a great sense of humor. He was humble. All the things that America likes in their leaders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: You are seeing a live shot. It is 3:24 a.m., St. Peter`s Square, Vatican City. We have our camera trained there for word of the Pope, Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla.
Welcome back, everyone. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to go straight out to Father Michael Manning.
Father, everyone is waiting for word from Vatican City. What will the next step be? And what will this Pope`s legacy be?
MANNING: I think his legacy to me was one of making the bridge between the secular and the religious. He was able, for example, when he came here to Hollywood, to speak to the Hollywood executives and be able to speak of the power of what the Gospel can really mean.
While at the same time, he could go into his study and he could come up with a very profound statement on what is real moral teaching in the Church and following Christ, continually moving with political people in the world, and then, also, being able to speak to Church leaders.
There isn`t any civil leader that he hasn`t been willing to talk with, to share with, and open up the door of dialogue and make Christ continually present, continually present, not just in churches, but now broadly expanding into the lives of every person.
GRACE: Father Manning, that image, that mental image of Pope John Paul II going for a meeting of Hollywood executives? I immediately thought of Daniel and the lion`s den.
MANNING: Yes.
GRACE: And he survived just like Daniel, Father.
MANNING: And they actually applauded him because of what he said, because he called them -- and going in to them and saying, "Look at the power you have in media."
Look at the power that you have, Nancy, and the ability that you can do to bring about the kingdom of God, even if people are not expressing their love of Jesus, even if they`re not saying, "I`m a God person," the ability to make bridges. This is what John Paul was saying. Go for it. Use your talents. Allow the world to be raised, allow life to be raised, and allow the kingdom of God to come into our world right away.
GRACE: Lisa Miller, senior editor at Newsweek, in the break you referred to him as an amazing person. Why?
MILLER: The thing that I think about him is that he had incredible personal charisma. Everybody who ever met him says he spoke to them in their own language. He spoke a dozen languages. He remembered the names of their relatives. He gave them gifts. He would stand and pose for picture even when he wasn`t feeling well. And at the same time, the man has been seen by more people in the world than any other human. He has been seen by millions of people. He knows about the...
GRACE: Lisa, I`m going to cut you off right there for us to go to break.
With me, Lisa Miller, senior editor at Newsweek, and she`ll pick up that thought when we get back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MIKE GALANOS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I`m Mike Galanos. Here is your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."
People around the world are praying for Pope John Paul II tonight. Vatican officials say the pontiff is nearing death. Some 70,000 people are holding vigil in St. Peter`s Square outside the Vatican. Church officials say the Pope breathing is shallow, his blood pressure has weakened, and his kidneys are failing.
Chicken entrepreneur Frank Perdue died at his home in Maryland yesterday after a brief illness. He was 84-years-old. He turned a family egg business into one of the nation`s largest food companies. He was one of the first CEOs to pitch his own product on television, appearing in 156 commercials.
The battle between Terri Schiavo`s parents and husband is not over, even after her death. Bob and Mary Schindler want to have their daughter buried in Florida where they live. Her husband plans to have her body cremated and her ashes buried in Pennsylvania where she was born.
That`s a look at the news for now. I`m Mike Galanos. Now back to NANCY GRACE.
GRACE: You are seeing a live shot of St. Peter`s Square. This is Vatican City. We have got the camera trained on the Pope`s private apartment. The lights still burning to the faithful there in St. Peter`s Square. It is 3:31 a.m. in Rome.
Welcome back, everyone. I`m Nancy Grace. We are bringing you the latest. Reports are that Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla, is laying in his private apartment surrounded by his aides near death.
Let me go live to Rome. Standing by, CNN reporter Delia Gallagher.
Welcome, Delia, thank you for being with us. Delia, do you trust the Vatican press office to tell us the truth?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely, Nancy. I do. And I think in the last two days we have seen what, by Vatican standards, is quite a lot of detailed information about the Pope`s physical condition. And we have no reason to believe that they would not be telling us the truth at this stage.
And I think as further evidence of that we saw earlier this afternoon the Pope`s spokesman, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, who literally broke down in a press conference when he was asked how he felt about the Pope`s situation. So I think they have no reason to hide the real situation. And so I absolutely believe what they are telling us -- Nancy?
GRACE: Well, we were getting conflicting reports all throughout the day, all throughout the night. Why is that?
GALLAGHER: Well, that is to be expected in a situation like this. We`re in a very tense, anxious time. And journalists, of course, want to do their best and try to get the news first. But it`s very important, of course, that they get the news right.
So I think with all of the journalists in town, and all of the wire services running back and forth, it`s very easy to pick up a rumor and think that it might be the case. But in such a delicate and important story, I think there is no reason to jump the gun until we have an official word -- Nancy?
GRACE: Back to CNN medical reporter, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, we have been told that his heart and his kidneys have failed, that he had a flat line at one point. If that is so, he would have to have been resuscitated. What do you think is the status of his health right now if those reports were true?
GUPTA: Well, you know, we never did get a confirmation, in fact, that either his EEG, which measures the electrical activity in his brain, or his EKG were actually flat. And just what Delia was saying, we were getting conflicts reports about that, but then heard that, in fact, we could not confirm that.
We do know, as we were talking about earlier, that because of such a low blood pressure and unstable blood pressure, there was periods of time where his organs, organs in his body, just did not get enough blood flow, including his kidneys, including his liver, including his brain, including his heart.
So you know, best guess, based on the information that we have, is that many of his organs had significant damage to them because of this low blood flow. How significant that is, whether or not his EEG tracing, the brain tracing, is flat, we do not know.
But let me tell you this, Nancy. If his EKG was flat, that would mean that the Pope had passed on. And we have not heard that, as you just heard from Delia.
GRACE: Thanks, Sanjay. Please stay with us.
Here in the studio with me, senior editor of Newsweek, Lisa Miller.
Lisa, whether you are Catholic or not, this Pope`s story, this man`s story, is fantastic. His mother died when he was age nine. He has lived under a totalitarian regime. He dug rocks in a quarry. He was an actor at one point in a troupe of actors that opposed communism through Christ. An incredible story.
MILLER: It is an incredible story. And when you look back at the old pictures, you see pictures of him with Fidel Castro, and him with Margaret Thatcher, and him with Elton John, and him with Prince Charles and Diana, and the queen. And you feel like this man was there through some of the most important parts of our history.
GRACE: Let me ask you, Lisa, do you believe that he had a hand in the destruction of communism?
MILLER: Absolutely.
GRACE: Explain.
MILLER: Well, he went to Vaclav Havel, and he went to Lech Walesa, and he said, "What you guys are doing is right. Have the courage of your convictions. Keep on doing it."
GRACE: You know, we are looking at a live shot of the Vatican. Thousands around the world, millions to be exact, praying for a miracle.
Now, according to Dr. Sanjay Gupta, the Pope is in a very grave, grave medical crisis.
Monsignor Kevin Irwin is us from Catholic University. Sir, I`m here with Lisa Miller. And we were talking about the legacy of this Pope, what he lived through. Whether you`re a Catholic or even a Christian, you don`t have to be to appreciate what this man has done almost single handedly. Explain.
IRWIN: Frankly, he did what he did with a great deal of charisma, a great deal of conviction, a great deal of mysticism, as you say, a great deal of profound thought. I mean, his thought is so compelling. It`s challenging. It`s convincing.
He also had a great way of preaching to folks and telling them repeatedly, "Do not be afraid. Have courage. Have the courage of your convictions." And he rested on 2,000 years of Christian tradition, and theologians, and philosophers behind him that he articulated and expounded in a way that made us aware of our tradition, made us aware of our legacy through his legacy. And that I think is a contribution. Our identity, who we are, really has been enhanced so much by who he was and who he is.
GRACE: You know, to Monsignor James Maroney.
Monsignor, he has lived through such crises within the Catholic Church, the role of women in the Church has been hotly contested, the priest scandal here in the United States with child molestation, the issues surrounding birth control amongst Catholics. But he has remained beloved through it all. How is that? You know, in other situations, people would revolt with all these crises occurring.
MARONEY: I agree, Nancy. In fact, I think CNN gave us the answer to that a week ago. Because one week ago, I was sitting watching CNN and could see the pictures of the Pope as he was watching on television himself, the Stations of the Cross at the Coliseum.
Every year on Good Friday, he used to go down there and carry the cross. He carried the cross with the same solidity and the same devotion that he spoke the truth, in season and out, no matter what people thought of it.
And you remember the only image that we could get of the Pope sitting in the chapel was from behind. And everybody wanted to know what his face would look like. And then that one shot from the side, you could just see him sitting there in his weakness clinging to that cross as he clung to what he knew to be the truth. And that cross tonight is something that he carries after having brought the truth as he knows it to the entire world.
GRACE: Well, Monsignor, that image, I recall, the image that sticks in my mind, is after the Pope John Paul II survived an assassin`s bullet, he then forgave the assassin.
MARONEY: Yes. He went to the prison cell and sat there with the person who had shot him, and looked him in the eye, and forgave him, and prayed for him. He did that because he tried to be for us what Christ is for us. He tried to be another Christ for us. And he provided us an incredible example that way.
I wonder how many of us would have the courage to go to someone who had really hurt us deeply, never mind shot us, and to be able to say, "I still love you, as Christ asked me to love you."
GRACE: Of all of his achievements, Lisa Miller, that spoke to me the most, transcending all religion, or non-religion, or race, or age, or nationality. You have studied this so carefully, Lisa, his legacy. What do you believe about it?
MILLER: I think one of the most extraordinary things that he`s done is presided over the changing face of the Catholic Church. You know, when he was elected Pope, the Catholic Church was a mostly white, European establishment. Now the college of cardinals is Asian, it`s African, it`s Latin American, it`s American. There are all kinds of people represented in the Church that were never represented before. It`s really a multicultural institution.
GRACE: Elizabeth, do I have Walt Rodgers with me?
Walt, we are showing the viewers a close shot of the Pope`s apartment, the light burning there. Walt, what is the latest, before we go to break?
RODGERS: The latest is that the Pope continues to hover very close to death. The end has not been announced, but he is perilously close to, because his body systems have almost completely broken down. His breathing is shallow. His heart is failing. His kidney is failing. And yet, his spirit clings -- Nancy?
GRACE: Well, we have seen this Pope beat the odds before. Millions are praying for a miracle.
Lisa Miller, senior editor of Newsweek, is leaving us now. The rest of our panel will stay. Thank you, friend.
MILLER: Thank you.
GRACE: We are showing you a close shot of the Pope`s private apartment where he is lying now surrounded by his aides. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are showing you a live shot from Chicago. This is a mass for the health of Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla, in his Polish tongue. Millions around the world praying for a miracle, and in the alternative, that Heaven take the Holy Father.
Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.
Let me go to professor emeritus at the school of philosophy, Catholic University, Jude Dougherty. Jude, thank you for being with us.
Sir, while millions are praying for a miracle, if the Pope passes on tonight, when will that be announced? And when will cardinals converge on the Vatican to elect a new Pope?
DOUGHERTY: Well, I think you should ask someone in the Vatican for that. I wouldn`t know about that.
But we were talking about his legacy earlier. I would like to address that issue, if I may.
GRACE: Oh, please do.
DOUGHERTY: I think that legacy will be two-fold. We must remember that Karol Wojtyla, before he became Pope, was a professor of moral philosophy and moral theology in Krakow and in Lublin.
And in that capacity, he`s left us some remarkable writings that will be studied for generations, schooled in the school of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he has brought many of the traditional truths of the Catholic faith into a new language, expressing them in the language phenomenology. That`s one part of his teaching that will certainly be examined in the years to come.
But then there`s the other side, his teaching as Pope, the encyclicals. There are more than 20, and some of these will be forever part of the moral and social teaching of the Church. I`m thinking of encyclicals like Centesimus Annus, Fides et Ratio, and Veritatis Splendor. These are very learned, scholarly documents that are articulate for the Catholic populace, the traditional teachings of the Church.
GRACE: It`s an incredible, incredible legacy.
Joining me again now is Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, in light of what you told me earlier, what will the Pope be feeling right now physically?
GUPTA: It`s really hard to say for sure. Most likely, in people -- and you know, it`s interesting. We talked so much about Terri Schiavo recently, but talking about people in the end-of-life situations, especially if he`s had a period of time without adequate blood flow to his brain, it`s unlikely that he`s probably feeling anything, probably unlikely that he has any significant awareness. And you know, again, we can`t confirm...
GRACE: Well, Sanjay, Sanjay, apparently he just recently asked for a reading from the Bible in the New Testament, the Third Station of the Cross.
GUPTA: Well, it wasn`t that recent anymore now, Nancy.
GRACE: Oh.
GUPTA: Over eight-and-a-half hours ago now was the last medical report. And at that point, they made no comment about his consciousness, which is significant, because in previous medical reports they had said still the Pope was lucid and was asking for some of this.
Of course, we don`t know, because we haven`t heard in eight-and-a-half hours, but just based on sort the history of someone with septic shock, it`s unlikely he`s experiencing much right now.
GRACE: Sanjay, you`re right. That was several hours ago. You are right. And I guess with septicemia, correct me if I`m wrong, at this degree, it could be a very rapid deterioration.
GUPTA: It certainly could be a rapid deterioration.
And you know, let me just tell you real quick. People who are otherwise healthy and develop septicemia have problems. You know, about 30 to 40 percent only may survive that. Someone who is 84-years-old, has significant medical history, the odds are not in his favor, Nancy.
GRACE: Disturbing news from Dr. Sanjay Gupta regarding the Pope`s medical condition.
To Walt Rodgers, CNN correspondent. He is there in St. Peter`s Square.
Walt, I`m trying to find out, if there is not a miracle, if the Pope does pass away, when do you predict it would be announced to the public by the Vatican? And when will cardinals begin to converge there?
RODGERS: I think it will be very quickly after the Pope passes away that the announcement would come. And it would come from Vatican radio. There are many cardinals here already. But they will be coming very quickly after the official announcement which comes out on Vatican radio of the Pope`s death.
Nancy, let me back pedal a little because I was in the Soviet Union when it started to come unglued. And many of your guests have focused on the question of the Pope`s role in the fall of communism.
The two most eloquent witnesses to the Pope`s role in that were none other than Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. If you look at his memoirs, he made it very clear that this Pope literally shook the foundations of the Soviet empire.
And even before that, in 1979, when the Pope made his first trip to Poland and there was this electrifying atmosphere. You`ll recall then- President Ronald Reagan sat in the White House and wept as he saw the reception that Pope John Paul II got when he returned for the first time as Pope to his native Poland.
Then the Soviet foreign minister, Andrei Gromyko was extraordinary worried. He sat in the politburo in the Kremlin in Moscow and worried aloud about the effects the Pope was having in terms of shaking the grip of communism on Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe.
And then Gromyko looked south to the Soviet Union`s southern border, where the Soviet Union was embroiled in an awful war in Afghanistan. And Gromyko felt there was a pincher movement which threatened the Soviet Union itself coming from Muslims to the south, the Islamist fundamentalists, and from Polish Catholics and nationalists to the west of Moscow.
So the Soviets had no doubts, and the communists had no doubts, who was responsible for shaking their empire and ultimately helping very significantly to bring it down. I was there. I covered it -- Nancy?
GRACE: Well, Walt, John Paul II has been in the Vatican for now over 26 years now, correct?
RODGERS: That`s correct, 26 years. I believe he is the third- longest-serving Pope. There were two who served longer before him. But remember, that`s a pretty long history, going back to the disciple, Peter - - Nancy?
GRACE: We are going to break. We are showing you a live shot of St. Peter`s Square. The lights still burning in Pope John Paul II`s personal apartment. He is lying surrounded by his aides.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are showing you a live shot of Vatican City. This is St. Peter`s Square outside the Vatican. The top two lights, Pope John Paul II`s private apartment where he is lying now, many say near death.
Thank you for being with us. We are bringing you the very latest from the Vatican on the health of the Pope.
Very quickly to Monsignor Kevin Irwin. Sir, this Pope traveled more than any other Pope. He named more saints than any other Pope named. What in the end is the impact of this Pope`s legacy?
IRWIN: The impact is precisely that international scope, that sense of our tradition, the sense that we can be holy as those saints were holy, and we can learn from a man like him that we can become just the holiness of God. And that will be the legacy of his spirituality and his profound mysticism, making us saints and making us scholars.
GRACE: And what could be more profound than that legacy?
Very quickly in our remaining moments to Walt Rodgers, CNN correspondent there at St. Peter`s Square. What can you tell us, as we say goodbye, Walt?
RODGERS: I can tell you this is an extraordinarily mournful occasion, as everyone here in Rome, and the 1.1 billion Roman Catholics around the world, await the end. The Pope`s medical condition is grave. We have no indication that recovery is possible at this point.
I was in the square at St. Peter`s earlier. And at that point, you could see Roman Catholics and people who were not Catholic praying because this was such a dynamic spiritual leader. And he will be sadly missed when the end does, indeed, come -- Nancy?
GRACE: You know, Walt, it`s hard to believe now in retrospect that this Pope was once a dark horse that nearly didn`t make it into the Vatican. And what remains with me is the impact of him forgiving his assassin.
I`m singing off for tonight. We are showing you a live shot of the Vatican where the lights in the Pope`s private apartment where he lay still burning. I want to thank all of my guests tonight.
My biggest thank you, though, is to you for being with us tonight and every night, as many of us say goodbye to the Pope. Stay with us here at Headline News for news around the world.
I`m Nancy Grace signing off for this Friday night. I`ll see you Monday, 8 o`clock sharp. Until then, good night, friend.
END
Aired April 1, 2005 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, it is 3:00 a.m. in Vatican City. The world is waiting for news of Pope John Paul II, gravely ill, believed to be approaching his final hours. Thousands are gathered even now in St. Peter`s Square praying and hoping for a miracle. The Pope lies in the papal apartment surrounded by his closest aides. Millions of the faithful all over the world offer prayers for the Holy Father.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I thank you for being with us tonight.
Pope John Paul II, gravely ill, is resting quietly in his private residence in the Vatican. The lights, as you see them, top two lights on the right in his apartment, still burning bright. The pontiff said to be serene, even peaceful. Loyal aides surrounding him, attending him.
Tonight, in L.A., St. Anthony`s church pastor, Father Michael Manning; in Washington, from Catholic University, Dean Jude Dougherty; and theology professor, Monsignor Kevin Irwin; also in Washington, from the U.S. Conference Bishops` Secretariat of the Liturgy, Monsignor James Maroney; in New York, Newsweek senior editor, Lisa Miller.
Also with us, of course, CNN correspondent Walt Rodgers joining us from Rome. Let`s go first to Walt.
Walt, please, give me the latest.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, regrettably, Pope John Paul II is hovering between life and death and perilously close to the latter. The latest medical bulletin we had several hours ago said that his heart was failing, his kidneys are failing, his breathing is shallow.
All day, for the past 24 hours, Vatican officials appear to be preparing the public, 1.1 billion Roman Catholics around the world, for the end. It announced that cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church went to the Pope`s bedside to say goodbye to the pontiff.
Also, there was a very important mass in St. Peter`s Basilica itself, in which the Vicar of Rome, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, said that he believes Pope John Paul II has now seen and touched the Christ, a very telling statement.
Additionally, earlier in the day, it was believed Pope John Paul II was lucid at the time. And he was warned by some of his friends and doctors of the gravity of his medical situation. You know, he chose to remain in the Vatican rather than go back to hospital this time.
The Pope is said to have requested earlier in the day that someone read him the scripture on the third hour, the third hour being the comparable time during Jesus` crucifixion when he gave up the ghost, traditionally 3 o`clock in the afternoon. The Pope clearly is well-aware, or was well-aware earlier in the day, of his own situation.
What`s most interesting now, of course, is that so many people have gathered in St. Peter`s Square, 70,000 at one point earlier this evening, and they`re the ones that seem to have the greatest hope. The Vatican itself is sending out signals which are clearly pessimistic -- Nancy?
GRACE: Walt, behind you, I believe where you`re standing, is the papal apartment. Are we correct that the two lights on at the top right are the Holy Father`s apartment?
RODGERS: That is correct. Those are the windows -- one of those is the window in which he appears when he gives his Sunday Angelus. Now, of course, he would not be in there with those lights on at this moment. But that is his papal apartment, and the window lights you see are coming from what is called the papal study or the papal library -- Nancy?
GRACE: As you know now, thousands have gathered in St. Peter`s Square. That is a live shot we are showing you as we wait for word on the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, known in his home language of Karol Wojtyla.
Here in the studio with me, a face you know well, Lisa Miller. She is the senior editor at Newsweek.
Lisa, first, we heard the Pope was dead. Then we heard, no, that`s incorrect. Now, we are hearing back and forth, and back and forth. Why?
LISA MILLER, NEWSWEEK: I mean, I think nobody knows. I think that everybody`s watching and waiting for word from the Vatican. The Vatican will tell people when the time is right. And then we`ll know.
GRACE: You say when the time is right, when the time is right. Why would they keep that from the public? There`s a billion -- I believe it`s 1,070,000,000 Catholics worldwide that are waiting to hear word.
MILLER: There`s no reason to assume that they`re not telling the truth. I think, you know, they`re watching. And it`s a worldwide vigil. And when they feel the time is right, they`ll tell us.
GRACE: Let me go to Father Michael Manning. He`s a pastor at St. Anthony`s Church.
Father, don`t you think it`s true that this Pope, John Paul II, helped topple communism?
FATHER MICHAEL MANNING, PASTOR ST. ANTHONY`S CHURCH: Very much so. I think that with his courage and his simple statement of being present and saying to the Polish people, "Go ahead, embrace freedom," just a simple word like that from a man where there was a Catholic country, oh, that moved people in a strong way to accept the challenge of being free.
GRACE: Let me go to Jude Dougherty. He`s professor emeritus at the school of philosophy, Catholic University.
Sir, tell me about when you first met the Pope.
JUDE DOUGHERTY, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: When I first met him, I saw some of the characteristics in the man that the world has witnessed over the last 25 years. And today, we`re witnessing the death of a valiant man who taught us how to live and is now teaching us how to die.
I think that`s part and parcel of his character. It was something that was evident the first time he was in Washington. As a matter of fact, I couldn`t conceive of anyone more worthy of the See of Peter than Karol Wojtyla, then Karol Archbishop of Krakow.
GRACE: Monsignor James Maroney is with us.
Monsignor, you were there when the Pope was named. You were there in St. Peter`s Square. Do you remember that moment?
MONSIGNOR JAMES MARONEY, U.S. CONFERENCE BISHOPS` SECRETARY OF THE LITURGY: I remember it very well, Nancy. And in fact, looking all day long at the large crowd gathered in St. Peter`s Square, at this, the end of the Holy Father`s papacy, brings me back to that moment.
In fact, Monsignor Irwin, who`s also with us tonight, was standing with me in the square that night. And as we were standing there, I think the image that comes to me the most is, when he took the name John Paul II, it was clear that he was taking both the qualities of good blessed Pope John XXIII of being a pastoral Pope, and at the same time taking the qualities of Pope Paul VI, who was very much the intellectual heart of the Second Vatican Council.
And when he came out on the balcony -- and I will never forget this, Nancy -- when he started, he began with the words (UNINTELLIGIBLE), "May Christ always be praised," the same words he used at the beginning of every address. And he quickly followed it by apologizing for his Italian not being up to par, which was a great exaggeration. His Italian was absolutely fine. But he won the hearts of the crowd just like the best pastor you have ever known, from that first moment to being bishop of Rome standing on that balcony.
GRACE: Let me go back to Walt Rodgers. Walt is a CNN correspondent. He`s standing by there in the Vatican City.
Walt, I know that that there are many ceremonies and formalities that must be completed upon the Pope`s death. Should that happen tonight, of course, there are thousands gathered there in St. Peter`s Square and around the world, praying and hoping for a miracle tonight.
Walt, what will happen upon the death of the Pope?
RODGERS: It`s a good question, Nancy. And what happens is the official announcement comes from Vatican radio. Then the cardinals begin to gather this first day in what`s called the interregnum. About the second day after the Pope has died, his body is prepared, he`s laid out in state in St. Peter`s Basilica in his papal robes.
Now, Vatican protocol, Vatican rules dictate that he can be buried any time after the -- or any time between the fourth, fifth and sixth day after his death.
But what most people will then ask is, when do the cardinals begin voting on a new Pope? And that by, again, protocol, tradition and law, Vatican law, states that the consideration of a new cardinal cannot begin until 15 days after the death of the cardinal who would have just passed away -- Nancy?
GRACE: Thank you, Walt.
We know that this particular Pope, Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla, is a mystic. He believes heavily in mysticism. That has been a signature of his being Pope.
Again, the Pope has had his last rites read to him. Millions standing by and praying and hoping for a miracle. Again, here in the studio with me, Newsweek senior editor, Lisa Miller.
Speaking of the process of electing a new Pope, how will that happen?
MILLER: So 15 days after the death of the Pope, the cardinals all convene on Rome. It`s 15 days because in the old days, it took two weeks, about two or three weeks, to get to Rome. And they get sequestered in the Vatican in a room next to the Sistine Chapel.
GRACE: About how many cardinals would converge?
MILLER: There are about 120, 130 cardinals right now. Cardinals over the age of 80 can`t vote. And so they all get together. And they are locked in a room. And they talk, and they vote, and they talk, and they vote. And a vote usually happens before 12 days.
GRACE: The vote, how does that take place? Nobody knows?
MILLER: Ballots. Well, there are ballots a couple of times in the morning, a couple of times in the afternoon. It`s a highly technical process. There are conversations. But this is not a political process. And so we can`t mistake it for a political process like we understand politics now. The Holy Spirit is involved.
GRACE: We are showing you a live shot of Vatican City. That is St. Peter`s Square. There have been up to 70,000 of the faithful hoping and praying for the miracle. Already it has been announced earlier erroneously that Pope John Paul II had passed away. A hush fell over St. Peter`s Square, as you see it, until that was corrected.
The two lights you see in the uppermost portion of the structure is the Pope`s private apartment. We see those lights burning. The Pope lying there, gravely ill, surrounded by the steadfast. Please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE JOHN PAUL II, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH: All human beings in every nation and country should be able to enjoy effectively their full rights under any political regime or system. Only the safeguarding of this real completeness of rights for every human being without discrimination can and should peace at its very roots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KOFI ANNAN, UNITED NATIONS SECRETARY-GENERAL: I pray for him as he has prayed for me and for peace. He is a man of peace. And he`s been a great supporter of the United Nations.
I recall very fondly my meetings with him. Particularly, sitting with him in his private quarters discussing the question of war and peace when we were thinking about what to do in Kosovo. And I could see he was not only a man of faith but a man who was also extremely concerned about the world we lived in. And like me, he also felt that, in war, all are losers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace.
Elizabeth, could you show me the live shot of St. Peter`s Square, please? We are standing by tonight bringing you the very latest. That`s all eyes on Rome, the papal city, the top two lights burning, that is the Pope`s private apartment. He is lying there near-death, surrounded by his aides.
Let me quickly go to CNN correspondent Walt Rodgers there in the papal city.
Walt, earlier, Italian news had reported that the Pope is dead. That was quickly corrected. Could it be possible, and is there any reason that the Vatican City would hide that from us?
RODGERS: Well, the Italian media does have a sometimes hasty approach to announcing things. What I need -- what we should point out is that the Vatican, throughout this whole experience of the Pope`s tremendous travail -- recall he was in hospital twice in February -- the Vatican has been really reasonably candid with us. They give you perhaps 20 percent of the news. The other 80 percent they don`t tell you, but that 20 percent has been accurate all along.
No one in the Vatican has misled us at all within the last 24 to 36 hours about the gravity and the seriousness of the Pope`s medical condition. Remember, this morning, or actually Friday morning -- it being Saturday here -- but remember they said the Pope was lucid then. Later in the day, when they issued their medical bulletin, that comment that the Pope was still lucid and conscious just was absent from the bulletin.
So the Vatican has actually been, I think, reasonably candid. And I don`t think they`ve misled us at all. There have been, as you point out, incidents of some rather frenetic reporting by some of the Italian media. But that`s in the nature of journalism in this part of the world. The American journalists tend to have a higher standard of truth and accuracy - - Nancy?
GRACE: To Lisa Miller, senior editor at Newsweek, has that been your experience?
MILLER: Yes, I think in the last 24 hours, the last couple of weeks, the Vatican has been incredibly forthcoming with information. The fact that Joaquin Navarro-Valls, who is the Pope`s spokesman, has left the press office open all night is incredibly unusual. The Vatican press office usually closes in the afternoon.
This is an example of how open they`re being about this. And this is a sad situation. And we don`t know exactly how it`s going to unfold, and there`s no reason to be suspicious of it.
GRACE: Joining us now, CNN`s senior medical reporter, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, welcome again tonight. Sanjay, many, many people, millions, are hoping for a miracle tonight. What can you tell us about the Pope`s condition?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It`s not looking good, Nancy, at all. In fact, I think by most accounts now, in terms of what we`ve been hearing from the Vatican, his overall medical condition probably irreversible at this point.
The last report we had was almost eight hours ago, a little over eight hours ago now, indicating that just about all the parameters that you could measure to try and assess what his health is all looked bad. And in fact, all of his organs being affected by this, as Walt Rodgers just mentioned. No longer any comments about his consciousness, his awareness, at all, which is just what you`d expect at sort of the end or last stages of septic shot, an overwhelming infection of the body.
So not good, Nancy. Not good at all.
GRACE: Septic shock. Explain.
GUPTA: Septic shock, so this infection they`ve been talking about, started in his urinary tract, in his bladder. When it becomes septic shock is when the bacteria actually leaves the bladder and gets into the bloodstream. Once it gets into the bloodstream, it can wreak all sorts of havoc, causing the blood pressure to drop, causing various important organs around in the body, including the kidneys, the liver, the brains, the heart itself, to not get enough blood flow. And that is where the problem really lies, Nancy.
GRACE: So Sanjay, you`re saying it started with a urinary tract infection and turned to septicemia?
GUPTA: Yes, that`s basically what I`m saying. It was a pretty significant urinary tract infection requiring antibiotics. At first, you remember, Nancy, they said it looks like it`s under control, it looks like he`s responding. And apparently, that wasn`t the case. This bacteria found its way into the bloodstream.
GRACE: I want to go to Monsignor Kevin Irwin. He is the professor of theology at Catholic University.
Monsignor, this Pope has lived through so much, a Nazi regime, an assassin`s bullet, a truck even hit him, and now this. What is his legacy?
MONSIGNOR KEVIN IRWIN, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: His legacy is that he`s made us more Catholic than we were before. He`s a man who`s of very, very broad scope. He`s traveled the whole world. And one of the names for Catholic is universal.
He`s brought the Catholic Church throughout all the continents of this world several times. He`s also a man of big picture. Jewish-Catholic relations could not be better. Under this pontificate it`s spurred on. He went to a synagogue in Rome. He went to the Holy Land, a big-picture person, Eastern Europe as you`ve mentioned. All of those things are the fact that he`s made us a very broad, large scope, wide-angle lens on reality Catholics.
GRACE: Pope John Paul II, a deep believer in Catholicism, mysticism. When he survived an assassin`s bullet, he took the bullet. And he went and put the bullet in the crown of the statue of the Virgin of Fatima. He believed that she had saved his life from the assassin.
As you can see, we are showing you a live shot of St. Peter`s Square. It is 3:20 a.m., the faithful still hanging on outside the Vatican. The top two lights, the Pope`s private apartment, where we lays now surrounded by his aides, praying for a miracle.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, ARCHBISHOP OF WASHINGTON: Well, I think for the American Catholic community, he was an extraordinary gift. In a certain sense, he was American. He enjoyed people. He had a great sense of humor. He was humble. All the things that America likes in their leaders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: You are seeing a live shot. It is 3:24 a.m., St. Peter`s Square, Vatican City. We have our camera trained there for word of the Pope, Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla.
Welcome back, everyone. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to go straight out to Father Michael Manning.
Father, everyone is waiting for word from Vatican City. What will the next step be? And what will this Pope`s legacy be?
MANNING: I think his legacy to me was one of making the bridge between the secular and the religious. He was able, for example, when he came here to Hollywood, to speak to the Hollywood executives and be able to speak of the power of what the Gospel can really mean.
While at the same time, he could go into his study and he could come up with a very profound statement on what is real moral teaching in the Church and following Christ, continually moving with political people in the world, and then, also, being able to speak to Church leaders.
There isn`t any civil leader that he hasn`t been willing to talk with, to share with, and open up the door of dialogue and make Christ continually present, continually present, not just in churches, but now broadly expanding into the lives of every person.
GRACE: Father Manning, that image, that mental image of Pope John Paul II going for a meeting of Hollywood executives? I immediately thought of Daniel and the lion`s den.
MANNING: Yes.
GRACE: And he survived just like Daniel, Father.
MANNING: And they actually applauded him because of what he said, because he called them -- and going in to them and saying, "Look at the power you have in media."
Look at the power that you have, Nancy, and the ability that you can do to bring about the kingdom of God, even if people are not expressing their love of Jesus, even if they`re not saying, "I`m a God person," the ability to make bridges. This is what John Paul was saying. Go for it. Use your talents. Allow the world to be raised, allow life to be raised, and allow the kingdom of God to come into our world right away.
GRACE: Lisa Miller, senior editor at Newsweek, in the break you referred to him as an amazing person. Why?
MILLER: The thing that I think about him is that he had incredible personal charisma. Everybody who ever met him says he spoke to them in their own language. He spoke a dozen languages. He remembered the names of their relatives. He gave them gifts. He would stand and pose for picture even when he wasn`t feeling well. And at the same time, the man has been seen by more people in the world than any other human. He has been seen by millions of people. He knows about the...
GRACE: Lisa, I`m going to cut you off right there for us to go to break.
With me, Lisa Miller, senior editor at Newsweek, and she`ll pick up that thought when we get back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MIKE GALANOS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everyone. I`m Mike Galanos. Here is your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."
People around the world are praying for Pope John Paul II tonight. Vatican officials say the pontiff is nearing death. Some 70,000 people are holding vigil in St. Peter`s Square outside the Vatican. Church officials say the Pope breathing is shallow, his blood pressure has weakened, and his kidneys are failing.
Chicken entrepreneur Frank Perdue died at his home in Maryland yesterday after a brief illness. He was 84-years-old. He turned a family egg business into one of the nation`s largest food companies. He was one of the first CEOs to pitch his own product on television, appearing in 156 commercials.
The battle between Terri Schiavo`s parents and husband is not over, even after her death. Bob and Mary Schindler want to have their daughter buried in Florida where they live. Her husband plans to have her body cremated and her ashes buried in Pennsylvania where she was born.
That`s a look at the news for now. I`m Mike Galanos. Now back to NANCY GRACE.
GRACE: You are seeing a live shot of St. Peter`s Square. This is Vatican City. We have got the camera trained on the Pope`s private apartment. The lights still burning to the faithful there in St. Peter`s Square. It is 3:31 a.m. in Rome.
Welcome back, everyone. I`m Nancy Grace. We are bringing you the latest. Reports are that Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla, is laying in his private apartment surrounded by his aides near death.
Let me go live to Rome. Standing by, CNN reporter Delia Gallagher.
Welcome, Delia, thank you for being with us. Delia, do you trust the Vatican press office to tell us the truth?
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely, Nancy. I do. And I think in the last two days we have seen what, by Vatican standards, is quite a lot of detailed information about the Pope`s physical condition. And we have no reason to believe that they would not be telling us the truth at this stage.
And I think as further evidence of that we saw earlier this afternoon the Pope`s spokesman, Joaquin Navarro-Valls, who literally broke down in a press conference when he was asked how he felt about the Pope`s situation. So I think they have no reason to hide the real situation. And so I absolutely believe what they are telling us -- Nancy?
GRACE: Well, we were getting conflicting reports all throughout the day, all throughout the night. Why is that?
GALLAGHER: Well, that is to be expected in a situation like this. We`re in a very tense, anxious time. And journalists, of course, want to do their best and try to get the news first. But it`s very important, of course, that they get the news right.
So I think with all of the journalists in town, and all of the wire services running back and forth, it`s very easy to pick up a rumor and think that it might be the case. But in such a delicate and important story, I think there is no reason to jump the gun until we have an official word -- Nancy?
GRACE: Back to CNN medical reporter, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.
Sanjay, we have been told that his heart and his kidneys have failed, that he had a flat line at one point. If that is so, he would have to have been resuscitated. What do you think is the status of his health right now if those reports were true?
GUPTA: Well, you know, we never did get a confirmation, in fact, that either his EEG, which measures the electrical activity in his brain, or his EKG were actually flat. And just what Delia was saying, we were getting conflicts reports about that, but then heard that, in fact, we could not confirm that.
We do know, as we were talking about earlier, that because of such a low blood pressure and unstable blood pressure, there was periods of time where his organs, organs in his body, just did not get enough blood flow, including his kidneys, including his liver, including his brain, including his heart.
So you know, best guess, based on the information that we have, is that many of his organs had significant damage to them because of this low blood flow. How significant that is, whether or not his EEG tracing, the brain tracing, is flat, we do not know.
But let me tell you this, Nancy. If his EKG was flat, that would mean that the Pope had passed on. And we have not heard that, as you just heard from Delia.
GRACE: Thanks, Sanjay. Please stay with us.
Here in the studio with me, senior editor of Newsweek, Lisa Miller.
Lisa, whether you are Catholic or not, this Pope`s story, this man`s story, is fantastic. His mother died when he was age nine. He has lived under a totalitarian regime. He dug rocks in a quarry. He was an actor at one point in a troupe of actors that opposed communism through Christ. An incredible story.
MILLER: It is an incredible story. And when you look back at the old pictures, you see pictures of him with Fidel Castro, and him with Margaret Thatcher, and him with Elton John, and him with Prince Charles and Diana, and the queen. And you feel like this man was there through some of the most important parts of our history.
GRACE: Let me ask you, Lisa, do you believe that he had a hand in the destruction of communism?
MILLER: Absolutely.
GRACE: Explain.
MILLER: Well, he went to Vaclav Havel, and he went to Lech Walesa, and he said, "What you guys are doing is right. Have the courage of your convictions. Keep on doing it."
GRACE: You know, we are looking at a live shot of the Vatican. Thousands around the world, millions to be exact, praying for a miracle.
Now, according to Dr. Sanjay Gupta, the Pope is in a very grave, grave medical crisis.
Monsignor Kevin Irwin is us from Catholic University. Sir, I`m here with Lisa Miller. And we were talking about the legacy of this Pope, what he lived through. Whether you`re a Catholic or even a Christian, you don`t have to be to appreciate what this man has done almost single handedly. Explain.
IRWIN: Frankly, he did what he did with a great deal of charisma, a great deal of conviction, a great deal of mysticism, as you say, a great deal of profound thought. I mean, his thought is so compelling. It`s challenging. It`s convincing.
He also had a great way of preaching to folks and telling them repeatedly, "Do not be afraid. Have courage. Have the courage of your convictions." And he rested on 2,000 years of Christian tradition, and theologians, and philosophers behind him that he articulated and expounded in a way that made us aware of our tradition, made us aware of our legacy through his legacy. And that I think is a contribution. Our identity, who we are, really has been enhanced so much by who he was and who he is.
GRACE: You know, to Monsignor James Maroney.
Monsignor, he has lived through such crises within the Catholic Church, the role of women in the Church has been hotly contested, the priest scandal here in the United States with child molestation, the issues surrounding birth control amongst Catholics. But he has remained beloved through it all. How is that? You know, in other situations, people would revolt with all these crises occurring.
MARONEY: I agree, Nancy. In fact, I think CNN gave us the answer to that a week ago. Because one week ago, I was sitting watching CNN and could see the pictures of the Pope as he was watching on television himself, the Stations of the Cross at the Coliseum.
Every year on Good Friday, he used to go down there and carry the cross. He carried the cross with the same solidity and the same devotion that he spoke the truth, in season and out, no matter what people thought of it.
And you remember the only image that we could get of the Pope sitting in the chapel was from behind. And everybody wanted to know what his face would look like. And then that one shot from the side, you could just see him sitting there in his weakness clinging to that cross as he clung to what he knew to be the truth. And that cross tonight is something that he carries after having brought the truth as he knows it to the entire world.
GRACE: Well, Monsignor, that image, I recall, the image that sticks in my mind, is after the Pope John Paul II survived an assassin`s bullet, he then forgave the assassin.
MARONEY: Yes. He went to the prison cell and sat there with the person who had shot him, and looked him in the eye, and forgave him, and prayed for him. He did that because he tried to be for us what Christ is for us. He tried to be another Christ for us. And he provided us an incredible example that way.
I wonder how many of us would have the courage to go to someone who had really hurt us deeply, never mind shot us, and to be able to say, "I still love you, as Christ asked me to love you."
GRACE: Of all of his achievements, Lisa Miller, that spoke to me the most, transcending all religion, or non-religion, or race, or age, or nationality. You have studied this so carefully, Lisa, his legacy. What do you believe about it?
MILLER: I think one of the most extraordinary things that he`s done is presided over the changing face of the Catholic Church. You know, when he was elected Pope, the Catholic Church was a mostly white, European establishment. Now the college of cardinals is Asian, it`s African, it`s Latin American, it`s American. There are all kinds of people represented in the Church that were never represented before. It`s really a multicultural institution.
GRACE: Elizabeth, do I have Walt Rodgers with me?
Walt, we are showing the viewers a close shot of the Pope`s apartment, the light burning there. Walt, what is the latest, before we go to break?
RODGERS: The latest is that the Pope continues to hover very close to death. The end has not been announced, but he is perilously close to, because his body systems have almost completely broken down. His breathing is shallow. His heart is failing. His kidney is failing. And yet, his spirit clings -- Nancy?
GRACE: Well, we have seen this Pope beat the odds before. Millions are praying for a miracle.
Lisa Miller, senior editor of Newsweek, is leaving us now. The rest of our panel will stay. Thank you, friend.
MILLER: Thank you.
GRACE: We are showing you a close shot of the Pope`s private apartment where he is lying now surrounded by his aides. Please stay with us.
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GRACE: We are showing you a live shot from Chicago. This is a mass for the health of Pope John Paul II, Karol Wojtyla, in his Polish tongue. Millions around the world praying for a miracle, and in the alternative, that Heaven take the Holy Father.
Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.
Let me go to professor emeritus at the school of philosophy, Catholic University, Jude Dougherty. Jude, thank you for being with us.
Sir, while millions are praying for a miracle, if the Pope passes on tonight, when will that be announced? And when will cardinals converge on the Vatican to elect a new Pope?
DOUGHERTY: Well, I think you should ask someone in the Vatican for that. I wouldn`t know about that.
But we were talking about his legacy earlier. I would like to address that issue, if I may.
GRACE: Oh, please do.
DOUGHERTY: I think that legacy will be two-fold. We must remember that Karol Wojtyla, before he became Pope, was a professor of moral philosophy and moral theology in Krakow and in Lublin.
And in that capacity, he`s left us some remarkable writings that will be studied for generations, schooled in the school of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) he has brought many of the traditional truths of the Catholic faith into a new language, expressing them in the language phenomenology. That`s one part of his teaching that will certainly be examined in the years to come.
But then there`s the other side, his teaching as Pope, the encyclicals. There are more than 20, and some of these will be forever part of the moral and social teaching of the Church. I`m thinking of encyclicals like Centesimus Annus, Fides et Ratio, and Veritatis Splendor. These are very learned, scholarly documents that are articulate for the Catholic populace, the traditional teachings of the Church.
GRACE: It`s an incredible, incredible legacy.
Joining me again now is Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, in light of what you told me earlier, what will the Pope be feeling right now physically?
GUPTA: It`s really hard to say for sure. Most likely, in people -- and you know, it`s interesting. We talked so much about Terri Schiavo recently, but talking about people in the end-of-life situations, especially if he`s had a period of time without adequate blood flow to his brain, it`s unlikely that he`s probably feeling anything, probably unlikely that he has any significant awareness. And you know, again, we can`t confirm...
GRACE: Well, Sanjay, Sanjay, apparently he just recently asked for a reading from the Bible in the New Testament, the Third Station of the Cross.
GUPTA: Well, it wasn`t that recent anymore now, Nancy.
GRACE: Oh.
GUPTA: Over eight-and-a-half hours ago now was the last medical report. And at that point, they made no comment about his consciousness, which is significant, because in previous medical reports they had said still the Pope was lucid and was asking for some of this.
Of course, we don`t know, because we haven`t heard in eight-and-a-half hours, but just based on sort the history of someone with septic shock, it`s unlikely he`s experiencing much right now.
GRACE: Sanjay, you`re right. That was several hours ago. You are right. And I guess with septicemia, correct me if I`m wrong, at this degree, it could be a very rapid deterioration.
GUPTA: It certainly could be a rapid deterioration.
And you know, let me just tell you real quick. People who are otherwise healthy and develop septicemia have problems. You know, about 30 to 40 percent only may survive that. Someone who is 84-years-old, has significant medical history, the odds are not in his favor, Nancy.
GRACE: Disturbing news from Dr. Sanjay Gupta regarding the Pope`s medical condition.
To Walt Rodgers, CNN correspondent. He is there in St. Peter`s Square.
Walt, I`m trying to find out, if there is not a miracle, if the Pope does pass away, when do you predict it would be announced to the public by the Vatican? And when will cardinals begin to converge there?
RODGERS: I think it will be very quickly after the Pope passes away that the announcement would come. And it would come from Vatican radio. There are many cardinals here already. But they will be coming very quickly after the official announcement which comes out on Vatican radio of the Pope`s death.
Nancy, let me back pedal a little because I was in the Soviet Union when it started to come unglued. And many of your guests have focused on the question of the Pope`s role in the fall of communism.
The two most eloquent witnesses to the Pope`s role in that were none other than Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. If you look at his memoirs, he made it very clear that this Pope literally shook the foundations of the Soviet empire.
And even before that, in 1979, when the Pope made his first trip to Poland and there was this electrifying atmosphere. You`ll recall then- President Ronald Reagan sat in the White House and wept as he saw the reception that Pope John Paul II got when he returned for the first time as Pope to his native Poland.
Then the Soviet foreign minister, Andrei Gromyko was extraordinary worried. He sat in the politburo in the Kremlin in Moscow and worried aloud about the effects the Pope was having in terms of shaking the grip of communism on Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe.
And then Gromyko looked south to the Soviet Union`s southern border, where the Soviet Union was embroiled in an awful war in Afghanistan. And Gromyko felt there was a pincher movement which threatened the Soviet Union itself coming from Muslims to the south, the Islamist fundamentalists, and from Polish Catholics and nationalists to the west of Moscow.
So the Soviets had no doubts, and the communists had no doubts, who was responsible for shaking their empire and ultimately helping very significantly to bring it down. I was there. I covered it -- Nancy?
GRACE: Well, Walt, John Paul II has been in the Vatican for now over 26 years now, correct?
RODGERS: That`s correct, 26 years. I believe he is the third- longest-serving Pope. There were two who served longer before him. But remember, that`s a pretty long history, going back to the disciple, Peter - - Nancy?
GRACE: We are going to break. We are showing you a live shot of St. Peter`s Square. The lights still burning in Pope John Paul II`s personal apartment. He is lying surrounded by his aides.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: We are showing you a live shot of Vatican City. This is St. Peter`s Square outside the Vatican. The top two lights, Pope John Paul II`s private apartment where he is lying now, many say near death.
Thank you for being with us. We are bringing you the very latest from the Vatican on the health of the Pope.
Very quickly to Monsignor Kevin Irwin. Sir, this Pope traveled more than any other Pope. He named more saints than any other Pope named. What in the end is the impact of this Pope`s legacy?
IRWIN: The impact is precisely that international scope, that sense of our tradition, the sense that we can be holy as those saints were holy, and we can learn from a man like him that we can become just the holiness of God. And that will be the legacy of his spirituality and his profound mysticism, making us saints and making us scholars.
GRACE: And what could be more profound than that legacy?
Very quickly in our remaining moments to Walt Rodgers, CNN correspondent there at St. Peter`s Square. What can you tell us, as we say goodbye, Walt?
RODGERS: I can tell you this is an extraordinarily mournful occasion, as everyone here in Rome, and the 1.1 billion Roman Catholics around the world, await the end. The Pope`s medical condition is grave. We have no indication that recovery is possible at this point.
I was in the square at St. Peter`s earlier. And at that point, you could see Roman Catholics and people who were not Catholic praying because this was such a dynamic spiritual leader. And he will be sadly missed when the end does, indeed, come -- Nancy?
GRACE: You know, Walt, it`s hard to believe now in retrospect that this Pope was once a dark horse that nearly didn`t make it into the Vatican. And what remains with me is the impact of him forgiving his assassin.
I`m singing off for tonight. We are showing you a live shot of the Vatican where the lights in the Pope`s private apartment where he lay still burning. I want to thank all of my guests tonight.
My biggest thank you, though, is to you for being with us tonight and every night, as many of us say goodbye to the Pope. Stay with us here at Headline News for news around the world.
I`m Nancy Grace signing off for this Friday night. I`ll see you Monday, 8 o`clock sharp. Until then, good night, friend.
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