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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Throng Gathers in St. Peter's Square as Pope's Health Falters

Aired April 01, 2005 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's midnight now in Vatican City. A huge crowd, as you can see, gathered in St. Peter's Square, awaiting word on the fate of a gravely ill Pope John Paul II. Right now Catholics around the world are joining in prayer for the pontiff who may be in the last moments of his life.
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Friday, April 1st, 2005: Pope John Paul II in grave condition.

BLITZER: Thanks for joining us. The Vatican says Pope John Paul II is clinging to life as his condition deteriorates. A Vatican spokesman says John Paul's breathing is shallow, his blood pressure weakening even more, and his kidney function worsening.

We're continuing our comprehensive coverage. We begin with our chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, in Rome; also our medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, in Atlanta. But let's go -- and here in Washington, by the way, the president of Catholic University, the Reverend David O'Connell; and Monsignor William Kerr, the executive director of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center. Let's go back to Rome, though. Christiane Amanpour sets the stage for us.

What do we know right now, Christiane, about the pontiff's health?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTL. CORRESPONDENT: Well, officially there hasn't been a bulletin for the last several hours, but there is no doubt that most here believe that the pope is on his death bed and is in his final hours on this Earth. And this Vatican square behind is now crowded with thousands of people who have come, they say, to pay their last respects.

I spent some time there talking to people, asking them what this moment meant to them, why they are here. There were Americans, Italians, Poles, people from all over the world, really, who have come here because they said they wanted to give him their comfort, their love. They wanted to say good-bye. And they believe this is a very sad moment.

As a sign of some of the formality and perhaps finality of what seems to be under way now, is that there was a few hours ago a formal rosary said, the prayers of the rosary for the pope. There were screens in which the officials at the presiding over the rosary were shown to the crowd. And the vicar of St. Peter's, who is one of the people who by tradition will be at the death bed of Pope John Paul II, the vicar of St. Pete's has said during that rosary session that this evening, or this night, Christ will open the doors to Pope John Paul II. And that certainly is a feeling amongst almost all the people we have talked to here as his organ failure continues, his breathing is shallow and he is, as we our told, serenely surrendering himself to the will of the almighty.

As I say, people, many of whom have differences of opinion and are in fact at odds over much of the orthodoxy and the doctrinal teaching of this particular pope, nonetheless recognize him as a great man, as one of the towering figures of the 20th Century and now into the 21st Century, and have come here to pay their last respects -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Are we expecting, Christiane, based on what we know, any additional briefings -- press briefings, from the spokesman for the Vatican or any other Vatican officials any time soon?

AMAPOUR: No, we have not been told that there will be. Usually they have in this period been announcing that there will be regular bulletins, and there have been over the last several days, as you know. And the last one was about four or five hours ago. But they have not promised us another one.

And there it a whole procedure and a whole tradition that will immediately go into effect once the pope dies, from the fact that his name will be called out three times. His ring and seal will be broken. His papal apartments will be sealed and then his death announced to the public. There's a whole ritual that is in -- you know, under way and prepared for that eventuality.

BLITZER: Christiane, I'm going to have you stand by. I want to bring Dr. Sanjay Gupta into this conversation.

Based on the latest report, the latest statement, the communique issued by the Vatican, explain to our viewers what Pope John Paul II is going through right now.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Significant changes in his blood pressure. In the medical world we call that hemodynamic instability. It's just everything is unstable, really, right now it sounds like, Wolf; specifically in relationship to this infection that Christiane was just describing.

The body reacts in a very predictable way. The blood pressure falls dramatically. And as a result of that low blood pressure, several organs in the body just don't get enough blood anymore, including the kidneys, the liver, for example, the heart itself, and the brain. And all these organs after some time without adequate blood flow start to fail.

And that's probably what he is going through right now. But the way it manifests itself, shallow breathing, some people describe it as labored breathing, lethargy because of the poor blood flow to the brain, and the accumulation of some toxins in the blood, because the kidneys can no longer filter them that well -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I've heard some doctors say, Sanjay, that if he were brought to an intensive care unit in a hospital, they might be able to prolong his life somewhat. He has made the decision to stay in that apartment, that third floor apartment at the Vatican. What do you say about this notion that he would be getting better treatment, antibiotics or other treatment in a hospital as opposed to his residence?

GUPTA: I think that that's probably true. We did some homework on this, in the best case scenario, someone who is in septic shot, again, that means that overwhelming infection in the body, who is otherwise healthy before developing that and is in a very good intensive care unit, still only has about a 20 to 30 percent chance of surviving that. And that's a healthy person, Wolf, so someone of the pope's age, 84, of the preexisting medical conditions, including Parkinson's, the data just isn't in his favor. The odds are not in his favor, Wolf.

So I guess a short answer of it is it might prolong his life a little bit but probably not make a significant difference at this point -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Parkinson's is such a complicating factor, because it can affect the breathing and so many other aspects of the vital organs. Explain that to our viewers.

GUPTA: People typically think of Parkinson's as a disease that causes tremor. You see the tremors in the hands and the arms. And that certainly is part of it. But there's other parts of it as well. Parkinson's affects many muscles throughout the body.

Wolf, you will remember his upper airway was affected. And that's why he needed that breathing tube back on February 24th, at least that was part of the reason he needed the breathing tube. But it affects many different muscles in the body. It affects the muscles around his chest, making it harder for him to take in deep breaths. When he first had this high fever, I thought it was probably going to be a pneumonia because of some of that, because of the immobility of his chest.

But Parkinson's -- just having Parkinson's alone, makes you more likely to develop some of these infections, so none of what we are hearing about the pope is all that unexpected or uncommon.

BLITZER: Sanjay, I'm going to have you stand by as well. I want to go back to Christiane Amanpour in Rome. The crowd that has gathered there at St. Peter's Square, is there any estimate of how many people, Christiane, A, can fit into that square, and is it fully packed right now? It looks enormous.

AMAPOUR: It's not fully packed. And there are really tens of thousands who can fit in here. I wouldn't say it was that big, the crowd right now, but it is a very emotional crowd, but a silent one, too. It's very somber and sad, the feeling here. People -- you would think that many people would create some buzz, some hum of noise. But in fact, what really greets you as you walk into that crowd, which I did, was the almost silent nature of the people who come here in quiet reflection and prayer. I have seen old couples, young couples, people who have brought their children, people who have wheeled in relatives by wheelchair, and people who have simply come here because they happen to be in Rome and realize that this is a passing of an era, a moment where one of the towering figures of our late history is about to go forth and pass onto the other world.

Of course, the pope is a Catholic, believes that this is not death but it is the beginning of eternal life. And so many of the people in the square were taking some comfort from that. But, really, they were praying. They were wanting to give their love and comfort. And some of them really said that this is just a profoundly sad moment.

We have seen the pope in distress many times before, not least when in that square he was almost assassinated by Mehmet Ali Agca, the Turk who shot at him in 1981. And at that time he also was given the last rites. But this time people think that there is no more miracle, that there is nor more chance, that these are his last breaths on this Earth, and that they are here in solidarity and to give him some kind of comfort.

They feel that perhaps if he can feel their presence, it might help him along the way. That's what they told us.

BLITZER: All right. Christiane, we will be getting back to you. Christiane Amanpour is in Rome at the Vatican covering this hugely important story. Father David O'Connell is the president of Catholic University, he is here with me; as is Monsignor William Kerr, the executive director of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center.

Let me begin with you, Father O'Connell. The fact that he has made this decision to stay at the Vatican, not go to that hospital, what does that say to you?

REV. DAVID O'CONNELL, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: I think it's a very significant decision. I think he realizes that the race has been run and that it's the time for him to pass from this life to the next. And I think he's placing himself in the hands of God at this point.

You know today, as you've heard from the statement we received from Dr. Navarro-Valls, that was -- he asked for prayer, he asked for the way of the cross, he asked for the Mass, he asked for Scripture readings. It's his time and I think he's recognized that.

BLITZER: And the description has been he's extraordinarily serene even at these moments. That's typical. That would not a surprise to you.

O'CONNELL: Well, you know, for any one of us, we're going to face the end in different ways. This is a man who has devoted his life to prayer, devoted his life to the Gospel, and who has spent his life in pursuit of returning to the lord. And I think that's the peace that has overcome at this time, the serenity that they talked about. BLITZER: The lights look to be still on in that apartment, Monsignor Kerr, the apartment where he has lived as the pontiff for so many years. It's a moving -- the image alone, to see that light burn at this late hour, after midnight in Rome, speak a little bit about that from your perspective.

MSGR. WILLIAM KERR, EXEC. DIR., POPE JOHN PAUL II CULTURAL CTR.: Well, it is, it's a beautiful sight to see. I think when we look up at those windows, and we see light, we are reminded of the life that those lights represent, not only the life of the pope, but the life of God himself, if you will, that the union of that person with his God is coming. The light says that death does not take over, light takes over, life takes over.

And I think it's a beautiful image that, you know, rises above the sadness of the crowd. As we heard, it's a somber group of people who are contemplating a very sad moment, even though they understand that this has spiritual significance for the pope and for themselves and yet still it's sad, it's somber. But those lights, they talk about hope.

BLITZER: And they are lighting candles in St. Peter's Square. This is a tradition. Talk a little bit about that.

KERR: Well, candles and candlelight have represented Christ from the very first centuries of Christian history. And we are in the Easter season, during the Easter season, candles play a very important role. We have a candle we call the Pascal Candle. That represents Christ. And in this season of resurrection, that candle represents life, the life that Christ gives to us.

And so the lights are very symbolic and very, very important to the Christian people who are watching.

BLITZER: Father O'Connell, we saw him briefly on Wednesday when he showed up at that window. Yes, he looked frail, yes, he was having trouble speaking, but it didn't seem to me he was as near to death as he apparently has been these past couple of days.

O'CONNELL: No, it didn't. It didn't seem that that were the case at all. The fact that he made the effort to be present was an indication that he wanted the world to see him, to see him and to see that he was still there, his presence is a comforting presence, his presence is a consoling presence, his presence is a challenging presence. And I think he wanted to communicate that and wants to communicate that to the very end.

BLITZER: If he does drop into a coma -- slip into a coma, what happens? Who is in charge?

KERR: Wolf, the church really created bureaucracy, if may use that expression. There's a bureaucracy there, and there are people who are established to carry on the business of the church for the short time that that would take place.

As we look at the Holy Father now, we realize with all the systems breaking down, that his time has come, his days, perhaps his hours are very short right now. And I think that any short-term response to a coma would be precisely that.

BLITZER: We don't know if he's given written instructions to artificially, as they say, try to keep him alive, do we, Father O'Connell?

O'CONNELL: No, we don't, as we've heard before, that that was the case with Pope Paul VI. But even though the question has been asked many, many times, the Vatican has not been forthcoming as to whether in fact a letter or some specific instruction has been given.

BLITZER: But at the same time the Vatican, Monsignor Kerr, has been very forthcoming, relatively speaking, with details of his health. In earlier episodes, if you will, of deteriorating health for a pope, there was usually either silence or very often there were even misleading statements.

KERR: This is true, Wolf. But this is a man who has really lived his life in the media, if you will, in so many ways. And he's been open to so many things that other popes have not been. I think he has realized, and he has set a tone in the Vatican that, you know, transparency is the way of the times, and I'm going to be transparent.

I think the very fact that he went through the changes in his looks, his bearing, his abilities, all of that he willingly did in public and I think even coming to the window, the last time we saw him at the window, he came there despite of all the infirmities that he was experiencing, and that were very clear to the world. And yet he wanted the world to know that even an aging person with infirmities has value, has meaning.

And you know, something that hasn't been said a lot. This man is a workaholic. He has worked every single day of his life in one way another. And he's not going to stop just because he's sick and getting old.

BLITZER: The story has been told, Father O'Connell, often that when he was young boy growing up in Poland, his dream was to become an actor and he wound up becoming pope. Talk a little bit about that.

O'CONNELL: Well, I think that is a very, very significant thing and it's had a significant influence in the way in which he decided to carry the papacy forward and really in a sense to embody the Gospel. He is an actor, and I think at times, and i don't say this with any disrespect, you get a glimmer in his eye, you get a sense even of being a little bit of a ham at times at times in his appearances. And that's a very positive and a very good thing to see that.

But that's true. I think that's been brought to bear many, many times. And he's used it, and this is the genius of the man, he's used it to his advantage -- not to his own personal advantage, but to his advantage as the chief shepherd and chief teacher of the church.

BLITZER: A lot of us remember his first visit to the United States in 1979 after he became pope and especially the first is stop which was Boston, home of a large Catholic community in the United States.

I want to play for you a very brief little excerpt, a clip of some remarks he made then.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE JOHN PAUL II: I want to tell everyone that the pope is your friend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Typical, you remember that visit in 1979, Monsignor Kerr. I don't know how close you were to Pope John Paul II, how many times you have seen him, you've met him, but talk a little bit about that first visit to the United States as pope.

KERR: Well, I think it was an extraordinary visit. I think a lot of us Americans were touched deeply because it was the arrival of the pope, there had been many, many chapters written in American history that spoke of the day the pope would come to America, not all of them were very flattering and not all of them were very anticipatory with joy. And here was the pope in the United States. And he was received not only by the Catholics of Boston, but by many in Boston and in Massachusetts. And he was just a wonderfully warm person.

I remember particularly when he went to Philadelphia. And he -- it was one of those moments where everybody was trying to perform beautifully. And he met with a group of priests from all over the United States, and the microphone didn't work. And it didn't work twice, it didn't work three times. And finally they found a microphone that worked. And he took that microphone and he looked at all of us, and the tension was great. But he looked at all of us and he smiled. And as he smiled he just relieved everybody, and he said, I will go back to Europe and I will tell Europeans not everything in America works.

BLITZER: Very cute.

KERR: It really was.

BLITZER: I remember his visit in 1993 to the United States, especially in Denver, I was there. I was the White House correspondent for CNN at that time. And President Clinton went to Denver to meet with the pope. You remember that visit to the United States, talk a little bit about that, although I believe we are getting some -- a live picture now from -- where are we going? In Baltimore, a cardinal is speaking right now. Maybe we should listen in.

CARDINAL WILLIAM KEELER, ARCHBISHOP OF BALTIMORE: ... taking notes and the talks. We were always delighted when he spoke because he was so clear and concise and to the point. And his interventions on behalf of all of the bishops of Poland moved the discussions along.

In '79, he came to Philadelphia, celebrated Mass there at Logan Circle. And afterwards I met him at dinner in Cardinal Prove's (ph) house and I said...

(BELLS CHIMING)

KEELER: That happens.

(BELLS CHIMING)

BLITZER: Cardinal Keeler in Baltimore, interrupted by the bells, perhaps appropriately enough. As we wait for those bells to drop down, we will go back to the cardinal after this. I want to take a quick break, as we go to break, though, more of our coverage coming up, Pope John Paul II, you are looking at these live pictures from Detroit, the Blessed Sacrament Cathedral, Mass under way right now. We will continue our special coverage right after this.

UINDENTIFIED MALE: Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.

CROWD: Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.

UINDENTIFIED MALE: Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the truth of thy woman, Jesus.

CROWD: Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

UINDENTIFIED MALE: Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

CROWD: Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

UINDENTIFIED MALE: Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

CROWD: Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. You are looking at these live pictures of St. Peter's Square. Thousands have gathered to pray for Pope John Paul II. The Vatican says he is gravelly ill and deteriorating.

These are live pictures, people have come from all over Italy, probably from all over the world to pay their respects, to join in these prayer services, informal prayer services at St. Peter's Square. There are more formal services happening all over the world, including in Detroit. Take a look at this, the Blessed Sacrament Cathedral in Detroit, where the cardinal, Adam Maida, himself Polish, has been participating in this Mass, people praying for Pope John Paul II. We are continuing our coverage, rejoining us here in our Washington studio, Father David O'Connell, the president of Catholic University; and Monsignor William Kerr, the executive director of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center.

Let's take a brief look back for a moment at the pope's life. Pope John Paul II was born in Poland Karol Wojtyla in 1920. He was ordained a priest on November 1st, 1946, and was elevated to cardinal on June 28th, 1967. On September 28th, 1978, he became the 264th pope. He chose the name John Paul II to honor his three immediate predecessors. Pope John Paul (sic) XXIII, Pope Paul VI, and Pope John Paul I, who served just 34 days before his death.

John Paul II is the first Polish pope. CNN's Chris Burns joining us on the phone now live from Krakow, Poland where John Paul was a bishop and a cardinal.

It must be very emotional in Krakow -- Chris.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, even at this hour, it's after midnight -- well after midnight, and there are still thousands of people outside of the archbishop's residence, this where the pope had -- well, when he was archbishop, spoke through the window there with the people late into the night. In fact, even three years ago, when he made his last visit here, he was there, again, speaking to the people. A very intimate sort of meeting they had, speaking, just small talk and singing songs to each other, but it was really quite a very touching moment.

And tonight the people are back, but they are facing a window that is closed, and through that window, you see a black crucifix with a golden Christ on it. And during the day there were services right outside there throughout the day, including observing the 12 stations of the cross, singing the various songs related to that and the prayers, sort of equating Christ's suffering along with the pope's suffering as a nation here had suffered really for hundreds of years, and had freed itself, the people see this as a country that freed itself thanks to this man, thanks to Pope John Paul II who really helped to unite the country and gained the respect not only of the anticommunist opposition, but the communists themselves.

In fact, tonight the president of Poland and the prime minister, Aleksander Kwasniewski and Marek Belka, both former communists, were celebrating Mass this evening in Warsaw's Army Cathedral. And across the country there are vigils with candles and incense and chants, and here these thousands of people outside that archbishop's residence as well, staying there with candles. And it does seem like they will be there throughout the night.

BLITZER: Poland, a very, very Catholic country. We will get back to you, Chris, thank you very much.

Father O'Connell, the burial of the pope, do we know where he will be buried?

O'CONNELL: Yes, he will be buried in St. Peter's Basilica. I'm sure that there is a tomb that has been prepared for him. The ceremony is a very elaborate ceremony, although as Monsignor Kerr, I'm sure, will agree, the ceremony has been much simplified over what it had been under previous pontificates.

BLITZER: So earlier speculation he could be buried in his homeland of Poland, that is not going to happen, Monsignor?

KERR: Wolf, I don't believe that's going to happen. There's a place in the Vatican for the popes, his immediate predecessors are there. And that's where this man, who is a son of Poland, but is the pope. And he is going to be there as the successor of St. Peter and the Vicar of Christ.

BLITZER: As we continue our conversation, I want to put up on the screen some pictures of people praying, still photos, people praying all over the world. A billion Catholics, as you know. This pope, he became a cardinal at a relatively young age, Father O'Connell.

O'CONNELL: Yes, and that's something that really amazes me as you look back on his life. And it shows you in a way, doesn't it, how God might work. At the age of 47, this man was made a cardinal.

BLITZER: Which is very young.

O'CONNELL: Which is very young. And he had a significant role to play in the Second Vatican Council prior to the time when he was made a cardinal, and significant influence on some papal writings prior to his own pontificate. Extraordinary.

BLITZER: He was the first non-Italian pope in quite a while, Monsignor. How extraordinary was that?

KERR: Well, I think it was extraordinary in many ways, Wolf. One was that people were very, very supportive of Italians holding that office. And yet there was an emergence of the church in so many different lands. And this man was an extraordinarily gifted person who rose, I think, in the estimation of his colleagues, so much so that he was, as you say, named a cardinal early in his life, early in his career. And he was respected by so many others that he was simply the choice of the cardinals.

I think there were many stories about that conclave, some of which are probably authentic, others of which are just at the level of rumor and anecdote. But he was chosen, I think, because of the man's breadth. He had an extraordinary reach to the world. He traveled a great deal before he became pope. He was a philosopher and an academic.

BLITZER: Those deliberations are very, very confidential, Father O'Connell, aren't -- do we ever know how that happened, do we ever get the full story?

O'CONNELL: I don't think we ever do. There is a great deal of secrecy that is designed in the process itself. And you can understand the reason there. As I was listening to Monsignor and to our conversation earlier, I was struck by a story that I've been told recently about Pope John Paul II, and even in his suffering how he has maintained his spirit and his humor.

Every five years all the bishops of the world have to come and pay their respect and make a report to the Holy Father. And we've been in that process this year. It's called the Ad Limina visits. And this past summer, a group of Spanish bishops came. And a younger bishop came in to visit with the pope. And when he saw the pope and aged he had become and infirm, he just broke down into tears. And he embraced the pope and he said, Holy Father, Holiness, he said, I fear this is going to be the last time I see you. And the pope looked at him and said, "Why, are you sick?"

BLITZER: He did have a great -- does still, I'm sure -- had a great sense of humor that was well-known. No matter where he went, people sort of laughed along with him, didn't they?

KERR: They did. He laughed along with them, you know. I think the statement he made in Boston, "The pope is your friend, " was very much the spirit of all of his visits. And he was able to reach beyond, if you will, the formal protocols that kept people at a distance. And his smile, his humor, his genuine love for people just transcended everything that would keep them from him. And he enjoyed people, and he enjoyed joking with them; he enjoyed singing with his friends. When I was over in Rome in November, I happened to be there at a time when his name day, St. Charles Baromeo (ph), was being celebrated. And he had a number of his Polish friends in for lunch. And he never forgot his roots. He never forgot his friends. And he's always lived in the joy of life. He's loved life.

BLITZER: And it's fair to say his closest aid to this very day is a fellow Pole, isn't that right?

KERR: That's right. That's correct. That's very correct.

O'CONNELL: And you know, what's very interesting too, when you have the chance to see him, as we have so often, up close and personal, he comes to life when he's in the presence of young people, and especially children. You know, no matter how debilitated or bent over he might have been, as soon as he saw a child or as soon as he saw a young person, he responded with such great love and such great affection.

In a sense, I think what we have seen was a man who became pope at a young age, at the age of 58, go from being our brother to our father, to our grandfather right before our eyes.

BLITZER: We are getting live pictures in from New York City, St. Patrick's Cathedral, where a mass is about to begin. There, you're looking at these pictures from New York City right now. This is probably something that's going to happen all over this country, indeed around the world.

I believe our Adaora Udoji is outside St. Patrick's Cathedral. Are you there, Adaora? ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I absolutely am. Good evening, Wolf. We have watched a steady flow of people coming in and outside of St. Patrick's Cathedral here. It's really considered the center of Catholic life here in New York City, and many of them, as you mentioned, are heading in for that 5:30 mass. Now that's a regularly scheduled mass. But we also spoke to archdiocese spokespeople today who told us they have seen far more people than usual going inside the church, flowing into the church today, given how gravely ill Pope John Paul II is -- going inside,

They've been lighting candles. They've been praying. We peeked in not too long ago and nearly every candle was lit. And Wolf, we're talking about people who are coming from all over. We met some tourists from Canada who called the pope a great man. We met some folks from around this area, a couple from Long Island who said they felt compelled to come down to St. Patrick's because they so admired the pope and his promotion of peace.

Now the head of the New York Archdiocese, Cardinal Egan, who was appointed by the pope in 2000, like so many today, said that he holds the pope in a special p7lace in his heart.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL EDWARD EGAN, NEW YORK ARCHDIOCESE: My feelings are feelings of one who has kind have lost a father. He named me a bishop, completely unexpectedly that I would ever be -- I thought I was going to continue until 75 in Rome, and then he sent me to the capital of the world. And McGee, that's everything, isn't it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UDOJI: New York Archdiocese has decided to extend the hours of St. Patrick's today, which usually closes at 8:45 p.m. They are going to leave it open until 10:00 p.m. today. They are trying to give the city's 4 million Catholics, that's nearly half the population of New York City, time to come in and worship if they choose -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Adaora. Thank you very much.

The Bishop Brocata (ph) at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York leading this mass underway right now. Father O'Connell, you have a mass that you've scheduled tomorrow at Catholic University.

O'CONNELL: There will be a mass. Actually Cardinal McCarrick, who is...

BLITZER: ...the archbishop of Washington.

O'CONNELL: The archbishop of Washington, who's the chancellor of Catholic University, has decided to remain in Washington. You know, we heard today earlier that he was leaving today, but he's staying in Washington, and he's going to celebrate a mass at the Basilica of the National Shrine on our campus. And certainly all of our students and so many people in the Washington area will come to that mass at 12:00 Noon, tomorrow. BLITZER: All right. We'll be watching that as well.

You're looking at these pictures. These are live pictures. You see the light is on in the third floor apartment, the residence of Pope John Paul II. It's well past midnight, past 12:35 a.m. in Rome. Actually, it's a moment that people are watching those lights remaining on at this time. Last night, those lights were dark, but they're on right now.

We'll continue our coverage . We'll take a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You're looking at these live pictures of St. Peter's Square in Rome, well past midnight. Thousands have gathered, thousands of the faithful, to remember and, of course, to honor Pope John Paul II, who is gravely ill right now, according to his spokesman at the Vatican. Jim Bittermann is in Rome, our correspondent. He's there. Sanjay Gupta, our medical correspondent, is at the CNN Center. Jim update our viewers, who may just be tuning in, on the latest statements you're getting from the Vatican.

BITTERMANN: Well, nothing but bad news from the Vatican all day long today. In fact, with each medical bulletin, the pope's condition was described in a little more dire terms. And I think a lot of people are watching and waiting tonight in St. Peter's Square with a sort of sense of inevitability about what's going to happen here, I think inevitability fueled by what they're hearing from the top churchman. Earlier this evening in St. Peter's Square at a rosary ceremony, where rosaries were recited in the name of the pope, Angelo Camastri (ph), the pope's vicar-general for the Vatican City, said that" the pope had opened the doors to Christ for millions of the faithful, now this evening, or this night, Christ opens the door to the pope." So a very grim message there from the archbishop.

And then a little earlier from the cardinal, Cardinal Camillo Ruini at a mass that was celebrated across town at San Giovanni in Lateran, Cardinal Ruini said that the pope "already sees and touches the Lord. He's already united with our Soul Savior." In other words inevitable in terms of what we're hearing from the top churchmen of the church. So I think, you know, in those terms, that people are waiting with some expectations that they're going to hear something before the night it out -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Well, Jim, how would that announcement -- is there any word or indication how that announcement, that grim announcement would be made?

BITTERMAN: Well, once again in the last hour, we've heard more rumors that the Vatican press office may be fueling up to do some kind of statement but no confirmation of that from the press office. Officially, it's Cardinal Ruini who would come on, perhaps, Italian television. That's the way he did it when Pope Paul VI died. He did do it, it was Vicar of Rome who did it, who was charged with that responsibility. But it would be in this case, Cardinal Ruini who would go before the cameras, and videotape some kind of statement that would then go out worldwide.

That would be the official confirmation that the pope had died. That hasn't happened yet. There were a flurry of rumors earlier in the evening, later tonight in the Vatican, they said that the pope is still of live. And I think one of the indications of that and one of the things -- one of the signals that's being sent here by those lights on at St. Peter's Square is that the pope continues to live.

BLITZER: Kim Bitterman (ph), we'll be getting back to you.

Sanjay Gupta our medical correspondent, how long can a man, 84- years-old with Parkinson's, frail as he is, with the deteriorating condition, how long can he survive in this kind of situation?

GUPTA: Twenty-four to 48 hours, probably, Wolf. It's hard to say for sure, obviously, there are no absolutes. But we've been following this along for about 24 hours, actually 26 hours now Wolf. Just to bring people up to speed here, a little timeline, it was about 3:00 in the afternoon yesterday that we started to learn of his urinary tract infection, a concerning one at that. He had an episode of low blood pressure, high fever. Antibiotics were given at that time.

It's interesting, Wolf, just a few hours later we got some word that the condition had stabilized, which meant that, obviously, things had improved, but also suggested that may be it had been unstable for sometime at well. And then about 1:00 in the morning much more serious news. septic shock had set in, cardio-circulatory collapse. And then by 5:30 in the morning, very serious blood pressure, unstable.

At noon, Wolf, you and I were talking and we heard that all of the biological parameters, everything that you could possibly measure, they said, looked worse. And that was, obviously, concerning. But they also said visible participation in prayer, which was a bit surprising to most of us, including myself as a physician. It's hard to say -- we haven't received much word since then, but 24 to 48 hours, probably, with that degree of septic shock is as much as anybody could imagine that he could survive, Wolf.

BLITZER: All, we'll be check back with you Sanjay. Thank you very much.

Father O'Connell, the president of Catholic University, I know you have to leave, and Monsignor Kerr you have to leave as well. But before you do, I want both of you to just give us your thoughts, your emotion, your feeling right now as we watch this gravely ill pope presumably continue to move towards the end.

O'CONNELL: Of course, for me, there is a very real sense of sadness, this man has been the leader of the Catholic Church, the pope, for my entire priesthood. And I have had the privilege of serving under his leadership and under his teaching and his ministry and consider it an extraordinary privilege that I have been given in my life. But at the same time I know the pope has suffered much and it's time for the pope to be at peace with the God that he served so well. And so, my prayers and my thoughts are with him tonight that that journey may be easy and that journey may be quick.

BLITZER: And there's no doubt that he has lead one remarkable life. He must be at peace with himself -- Monsignor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Wolf, I think -- I feel as though a member of my family is going through the final moments of his life. He has been, you know, in my living room. He has been in the cities where I've been. We've been together on a number of occasions. And he, of course, has been the leader of my church, but he's also been a member of my family, in a sense, because he's been warm in so many ways to so many people and loving. And I think his legacy is going to be that wonderful love that he's been able to share with millions of people in all situations, all situations. And he's preached consistently the solidarity of the human family. And I think the human family is responding now with sadness, but also with prayers, that this man indeed, does have a peaceful moment.

BLITZER: Monsignor Kerr, thank you so much for joining us, and Father O'Connell from Catholic University, thanks to you as well.

Joining us now from Rome is the president of St. John's University, Father Donald Harrington.

I wonder Father Harrington, you're there, give us your perspective. You are on the scene. This must be so emotional to be in Rome at a moment like this.

REV. DONALD HARRINGTON, PRES. ST. JOHNS UNIVERSITY: Yes, it really is, Wolf. Good evening and thank you for this opportunity. I just happened to be in Rome for a few days on business at our Rome campus. And to be here is truly a very special and blessed experience. In moving around Rome today, I couldn't help but to reflect back on the election of John Paul II. And my recollection of his comments at that time were that, "I'm a foreigner. I've come from a foreign land, but I am now Italian." And clearly the Italian people believe that now tonight.

BLITZER: What kind of impact did he have personally on you, father, Pope John Paul II?

HARRINGTON: I was honored to meet him a number of times. There's one experience I would share with you that was the most striking, which is approximately eight years ago, I was here in Rome with the men's soccer team from St. Johns that had just won the national championship. And his holiness gave the team and ourselves an audience. And his interaction with thing young men that day, his conversations about their great successes on the field showed his humanness. And his awareness of St. Johns was most reassuring to them and to me. But most of all to see him with young people, and I think over and over again, people will reflect on that in the coming days.

BLITZER: In Rome is there a sense right now that it's only minutes hours, maybe a day or two away? Do you get any kind of indication, because you're there on the scene.

HARRINGTON: Yes, clearly people believe it's almost any moment. As I got into the cab this evening to come over here for this, the cab driver asked me if the holy father had passed away, yet. People are waiting to hear the bells ring in all the churches of Rome. There's clearly a sense of anticipation.

BLITZER: We've got a statement from the vicar general of the Vatican City saying this evening, or this night, "Christ opens the door to the pope." That's a significant metaphor, if you will, a significant feeling that the Vatican is trying to present. Talk a little bit about that.

HARRINGTON: I would be pleased to. This morning I was at a business conference here in Rome, and I was speaking with a former senator from the Rome Senate, the Italian Senate. And I asked him how he believed the people were feeling. And he said, of course, sadness because we know it's a time of great loss, but it's also a time of great culmination. And I believe that's my own feelings in my heart and my mind. And the people I have spoken with see this as a great culmination of a truly incredible life. I don't think we have -- we've even had a glimpse, yet, of what the impact of this man has been. History, I think, will prove him to be even greater than any of us have experienced to date.

BLITZER: Father Harrington, I'm going to have you stand by for a moment.

I want to bring in Father Thomas Reese the author of "Inside the Vatican." he's joining us from our New York bureau. He's a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University as well.

Go through -- bring out your feelings, father, at what is happening this extraordinary moment in the history of the Catholic Church right now.

REV. THOMAS REESE, "AUTHOR "INSIDE THE VATICAN": Well, it is -- it is an extraordinary moment. And for me personally, who has followed his actions as editor of "America Magazine" and written about him. He's' -- He's a figure who has been larger than life. He's had such an impact on the world, on world events, through his support of solidarity and bringing about an end of communism in Eastern Europe and that. And the great work that he's done in improving relations between Catholics and Jews around the world. And this prophetic stance, this prophetic voice that he's been in the world for justice and peace. I mean, this man is larger than life. And, you know, we're sad, I think, to see him suffering. I think, as he approaches eternal life we, you know, we rejoice with him that he's returning to the Lord. And we pray -- we pray for him now in his final hours.

BLITZER: Father Reese, he was so active, not only in improving relations between Catholics and Jews, but also so active in the Middle East, especially, in trying to help the Israelis and the Arabs get to some sot of peaceful agreement. These were high issues on his agenda. May -- dare I say at the top of his agenda?

REESE: Clearly, you know, he saw his role as pope to be a force for peace and justice in the world. And he was not afraid to speak out strongly for the rights of Palestinians while at the same time, being very strong in his condemnation of terrorism and attacks on civilians. You know, he tried to balance those things. He tried to bring people together for peace. He was one who was always for peace, very critical, for example, of the U.S. war in Iraq -- in fact, both wars. So he's -- you know, the Middle East, you know, as the birthplace of Jesus, he was very concerned by the great exodus from that land, of Christians who are moving out of there, who feel they're caught in the middle of this battle between Jews and Muslims.

So, yeah, this was something that was very close to his heart and he worked hard at.

BLITZER: I'm going to have Father Reese and Father Harrington stand by as we watch these live pictures from St. Peter's Square in Rome at the Vatican. We'll take another short break. We'll be right back.

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BLITZER: Police in Rome estimate that some 70, 000 people have come to St. Peter's Square -- you're looking at live pictures -- to pray -- to pray for John Paul II. The lights are on in his third- floor apartment even at this late hour, approaching 1:00 a.m. In Rome, we're continuing our coverage. Pope John Paul II gravely ill.

Continuing our conversation, the Reverend Donald Harrington, the president of St. Johns University -- he's joining us from Rome -- and Father Thomas Reese, the author of "Inside the Vatican" -- he's joining us from our New York bureau. We'll get back to them in just a moment.

Pope John Paul II has visited 129 countries, more than any other pope. He's visited Africa more than any other continent, but his travels have taken him all over the world. Not surprisingly, John Paul visited his native Poland more than any other country, making nine official visits, the most recent being less than a year ago on his 84th birthday.

The United States is tied with France for second place with seven visits. The pope was in Boston in 1979. His most recent visit to the United States, was back in 1999.

A quarter of a century later, Boston still remembers John Paul's first papal visit to the United States. Let's go to our national correspondent, Gary Tuchman. He's outside Boston's Cathedral of the Holy Cross. Gary.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, as the sun sets here in Boston, they are getting ready to celebrate a mass to pray for Pope John Paul II inside here at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross. It begins at 6:00 Eastern Time. And this is the first church that Pope John Paul II went to as pontiff. That was back in 1979. October 1st, he came into this church. He delivered a homily, and then went to the Boston Common and Public Garden, the two green spots in downtown Boston right next to the state capitol, and that's where more than 1 million people waited out in the streets to participate in a mass that day. People still talk about it like it was the birth of their child or their grandchild. They remember 25 years ago when the pope came here. And that's why the mass that will be taking place, this special mass just set up a short while ago, will be so emotional.

Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: All right, Gary. Thanks.

Chris Lawrence is standing by in Chicago where mass is expected to begin momentarily as well -- Chris.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it's very sad here. And I wish I could explain that better to you, but if you sit in those pews and you look in people's faces, there's just a feeling inside of just real sadness. You know, Chicago has a huge Polish population. Pope John Paul II is a Polish man, and that meant something here. One of the men inside told me that he has made him proud to say that I am from Poland. And one of the young priests who was inspired to the priesthood by the pope told me in a very serious tone that the way he has dealt with his sickness has been an example to the entire world. Then he started laughing and said, and you know what? He's a stubborn Pole.

You know, his ethnicity has a real impact here in this community. And we talked to one mother inside who literally had a spring break with her children planned to start tomorrow. When she heard how sick the pope had become, she canceled it immediately, took her kids in here to church and has been praying for the pope the last few hours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love him. I saw him two years ago in Rome when I was in Rome, and I love him very much. And I don't know what's going to be after him.

LAWRENCE: And as a Catholic, as someone about my age who has never known any other pope except John Paul II, that's a question a lot of us have today is, what could it even be like without him -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Chris Lawrence in Chicago, thank you very much. Father Harrington, the president of St. John's University, is still with us. He's in Rome. Explain from your perspective, Father Harrington, what's going through the minds of Catholics around the world right now.

HARRINGTON: I would think a great sense of loss, Wolf. As was just said, very few people remember -- while I do, and many others do, many do not remember another pope. And this man has touched so many lives in so many different ways. Tonight for example here in Rome, my sense is that the soul of Rome is shining forth. It's a prayerful atmosphere as though each individual was touched personally by the Holy Father. And I presume that's what's happening all around the world right now.

BLITZER: I think well said, Reverend Harrington. Thank you very much for spending a few moments with us. Reverend Donald Harrington from St. John's University. Father Reese, let me let you wrap up our coverage this hour with your final thought.

REESE: Well, I think that our prayers are with Pope John Paul as he approaches death. And as Christians, we, like him, look upon death not as the end, not -- but really as the beginning of new life. And I think we approach death with hope, with -- and actually even with joy. He has run the race. He has finished his work. He now approaches his father in heaven, and he goes to his reward, which he richly deserves.

BLITZER: And in the coming days, Father Reese, what can we expect to happen at this site, the St. Peter's Square? We're looking at these live pictures right now. Give us anticipation what will happen there.

REESE: Well, the -- you know, when the pope dies, everything is quite laid out by church law about what happens. The funeral will take place within four to six days. There will be an eight-day -- nine-day mourning period after the pope dies. There will be masses. He will be laid in state in St. Peter's Basilica. And then, of course, 15 days after he dies, the cardinals will gather in a conclave to pray and to discuss and ultimately to elect his successor.

BLITZER: Father Reese, we have to leave it right there. Thanks so much for joining us. And thanks to all of our guests this hour.

We're going to continue our coverage of Pope John Paul II. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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Aired April 1, 2005 - 17:00   ET
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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: It's midnight now in Vatican City. A huge crowd, as you can see, gathered in St. Peter's Square, awaiting word on the fate of a gravely ill Pope John Paul II. Right now Catholics around the world are joining in prayer for the pontiff who may be in the last moments of his life.
ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Friday, April 1st, 2005: Pope John Paul II in grave condition.

BLITZER: Thanks for joining us. The Vatican says Pope John Paul II is clinging to life as his condition deteriorates. A Vatican spokesman says John Paul's breathing is shallow, his blood pressure weakening even more, and his kidney function worsening.

We're continuing our comprehensive coverage. We begin with our chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, in Rome; also our medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, in Atlanta. But let's go -- and here in Washington, by the way, the president of Catholic University, the Reverend David O'Connell; and Monsignor William Kerr, the executive director of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center. Let's go back to Rome, though. Christiane Amanpour sets the stage for us.

What do we know right now, Christiane, about the pontiff's health?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTL. CORRESPONDENT: Well, officially there hasn't been a bulletin for the last several hours, but there is no doubt that most here believe that the pope is on his death bed and is in his final hours on this Earth. And this Vatican square behind is now crowded with thousands of people who have come, they say, to pay their last respects.

I spent some time there talking to people, asking them what this moment meant to them, why they are here. There were Americans, Italians, Poles, people from all over the world, really, who have come here because they said they wanted to give him their comfort, their love. They wanted to say good-bye. And they believe this is a very sad moment.

As a sign of some of the formality and perhaps finality of what seems to be under way now, is that there was a few hours ago a formal rosary said, the prayers of the rosary for the pope. There were screens in which the officials at the presiding over the rosary were shown to the crowd. And the vicar of St. Peter's, who is one of the people who by tradition will be at the death bed of Pope John Paul II, the vicar of St. Pete's has said during that rosary session that this evening, or this night, Christ will open the doors to Pope John Paul II. And that certainly is a feeling amongst almost all the people we have talked to here as his organ failure continues, his breathing is shallow and he is, as we our told, serenely surrendering himself to the will of the almighty.

As I say, people, many of whom have differences of opinion and are in fact at odds over much of the orthodoxy and the doctrinal teaching of this particular pope, nonetheless recognize him as a great man, as one of the towering figures of the 20th Century and now into the 21st Century, and have come here to pay their last respects -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Are we expecting, Christiane, based on what we know, any additional briefings -- press briefings, from the spokesman for the Vatican or any other Vatican officials any time soon?

AMAPOUR: No, we have not been told that there will be. Usually they have in this period been announcing that there will be regular bulletins, and there have been over the last several days, as you know. And the last one was about four or five hours ago. But they have not promised us another one.

And there it a whole procedure and a whole tradition that will immediately go into effect once the pope dies, from the fact that his name will be called out three times. His ring and seal will be broken. His papal apartments will be sealed and then his death announced to the public. There's a whole ritual that is in -- you know, under way and prepared for that eventuality.

BLITZER: Christiane, I'm going to have you stand by. I want to bring Dr. Sanjay Gupta into this conversation.

Based on the latest report, the latest statement, the communique issued by the Vatican, explain to our viewers what Pope John Paul II is going through right now.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Significant changes in his blood pressure. In the medical world we call that hemodynamic instability. It's just everything is unstable, really, right now it sounds like, Wolf; specifically in relationship to this infection that Christiane was just describing.

The body reacts in a very predictable way. The blood pressure falls dramatically. And as a result of that low blood pressure, several organs in the body just don't get enough blood anymore, including the kidneys, the liver, for example, the heart itself, and the brain. And all these organs after some time without adequate blood flow start to fail.

And that's probably what he is going through right now. But the way it manifests itself, shallow breathing, some people describe it as labored breathing, lethargy because of the poor blood flow to the brain, and the accumulation of some toxins in the blood, because the kidneys can no longer filter them that well -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I've heard some doctors say, Sanjay, that if he were brought to an intensive care unit in a hospital, they might be able to prolong his life somewhat. He has made the decision to stay in that apartment, that third floor apartment at the Vatican. What do you say about this notion that he would be getting better treatment, antibiotics or other treatment in a hospital as opposed to his residence?

GUPTA: I think that that's probably true. We did some homework on this, in the best case scenario, someone who is in septic shot, again, that means that overwhelming infection in the body, who is otherwise healthy before developing that and is in a very good intensive care unit, still only has about a 20 to 30 percent chance of surviving that. And that's a healthy person, Wolf, so someone of the pope's age, 84, of the preexisting medical conditions, including Parkinson's, the data just isn't in his favor. The odds are not in his favor, Wolf.

So I guess a short answer of it is it might prolong his life a little bit but probably not make a significant difference at this point -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Parkinson's is such a complicating factor, because it can affect the breathing and so many other aspects of the vital organs. Explain that to our viewers.

GUPTA: People typically think of Parkinson's as a disease that causes tremor. You see the tremors in the hands and the arms. And that certainly is part of it. But there's other parts of it as well. Parkinson's affects many muscles throughout the body.

Wolf, you will remember his upper airway was affected. And that's why he needed that breathing tube back on February 24th, at least that was part of the reason he needed the breathing tube. But it affects many different muscles in the body. It affects the muscles around his chest, making it harder for him to take in deep breaths. When he first had this high fever, I thought it was probably going to be a pneumonia because of some of that, because of the immobility of his chest.

But Parkinson's -- just having Parkinson's alone, makes you more likely to develop some of these infections, so none of what we are hearing about the pope is all that unexpected or uncommon.

BLITZER: Sanjay, I'm going to have you stand by as well. I want to go back to Christiane Amanpour in Rome. The crowd that has gathered there at St. Peter's Square, is there any estimate of how many people, Christiane, A, can fit into that square, and is it fully packed right now? It looks enormous.

AMAPOUR: It's not fully packed. And there are really tens of thousands who can fit in here. I wouldn't say it was that big, the crowd right now, but it is a very emotional crowd, but a silent one, too. It's very somber and sad, the feeling here. People -- you would think that many people would create some buzz, some hum of noise. But in fact, what really greets you as you walk into that crowd, which I did, was the almost silent nature of the people who come here in quiet reflection and prayer. I have seen old couples, young couples, people who have brought their children, people who have wheeled in relatives by wheelchair, and people who have simply come here because they happen to be in Rome and realize that this is a passing of an era, a moment where one of the towering figures of our late history is about to go forth and pass onto the other world.

Of course, the pope is a Catholic, believes that this is not death but it is the beginning of eternal life. And so many of the people in the square were taking some comfort from that. But, really, they were praying. They were wanting to give their love and comfort. And some of them really said that this is just a profoundly sad moment.

We have seen the pope in distress many times before, not least when in that square he was almost assassinated by Mehmet Ali Agca, the Turk who shot at him in 1981. And at that time he also was given the last rites. But this time people think that there is no more miracle, that there is nor more chance, that these are his last breaths on this Earth, and that they are here in solidarity and to give him some kind of comfort.

They feel that perhaps if he can feel their presence, it might help him along the way. That's what they told us.

BLITZER: All right. Christiane, we will be getting back to you. Christiane Amanpour is in Rome at the Vatican covering this hugely important story. Father David O'Connell is the president of Catholic University, he is here with me; as is Monsignor William Kerr, the executive director of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center.

Let me begin with you, Father O'Connell. The fact that he has made this decision to stay at the Vatican, not go to that hospital, what does that say to you?

REV. DAVID O'CONNELL, PRESIDENT, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: I think it's a very significant decision. I think he realizes that the race has been run and that it's the time for him to pass from this life to the next. And I think he's placing himself in the hands of God at this point.

You know today, as you've heard from the statement we received from Dr. Navarro-Valls, that was -- he asked for prayer, he asked for the way of the cross, he asked for the Mass, he asked for Scripture readings. It's his time and I think he's recognized that.

BLITZER: And the description has been he's extraordinarily serene even at these moments. That's typical. That would not a surprise to you.

O'CONNELL: Well, you know, for any one of us, we're going to face the end in different ways. This is a man who has devoted his life to prayer, devoted his life to the Gospel, and who has spent his life in pursuit of returning to the lord. And I think that's the peace that has overcome at this time, the serenity that they talked about. BLITZER: The lights look to be still on in that apartment, Monsignor Kerr, the apartment where he has lived as the pontiff for so many years. It's a moving -- the image alone, to see that light burn at this late hour, after midnight in Rome, speak a little bit about that from your perspective.

MSGR. WILLIAM KERR, EXEC. DIR., POPE JOHN PAUL II CULTURAL CTR.: Well, it is, it's a beautiful sight to see. I think when we look up at those windows, and we see light, we are reminded of the life that those lights represent, not only the life of the pope, but the life of God himself, if you will, that the union of that person with his God is coming. The light says that death does not take over, light takes over, life takes over.

And I think it's a beautiful image that, you know, rises above the sadness of the crowd. As we heard, it's a somber group of people who are contemplating a very sad moment, even though they understand that this has spiritual significance for the pope and for themselves and yet still it's sad, it's somber. But those lights, they talk about hope.

BLITZER: And they are lighting candles in St. Peter's Square. This is a tradition. Talk a little bit about that.

KERR: Well, candles and candlelight have represented Christ from the very first centuries of Christian history. And we are in the Easter season, during the Easter season, candles play a very important role. We have a candle we call the Pascal Candle. That represents Christ. And in this season of resurrection, that candle represents life, the life that Christ gives to us.

And so the lights are very symbolic and very, very important to the Christian people who are watching.

BLITZER: Father O'Connell, we saw him briefly on Wednesday when he showed up at that window. Yes, he looked frail, yes, he was having trouble speaking, but it didn't seem to me he was as near to death as he apparently has been these past couple of days.

O'CONNELL: No, it didn't. It didn't seem that that were the case at all. The fact that he made the effort to be present was an indication that he wanted the world to see him, to see him and to see that he was still there, his presence is a comforting presence, his presence is a consoling presence, his presence is a challenging presence. And I think he wanted to communicate that and wants to communicate that to the very end.

BLITZER: If he does drop into a coma -- slip into a coma, what happens? Who is in charge?

KERR: Wolf, the church really created bureaucracy, if may use that expression. There's a bureaucracy there, and there are people who are established to carry on the business of the church for the short time that that would take place.

As we look at the Holy Father now, we realize with all the systems breaking down, that his time has come, his days, perhaps his hours are very short right now. And I think that any short-term response to a coma would be precisely that.

BLITZER: We don't know if he's given written instructions to artificially, as they say, try to keep him alive, do we, Father O'Connell?

O'CONNELL: No, we don't, as we've heard before, that that was the case with Pope Paul VI. But even though the question has been asked many, many times, the Vatican has not been forthcoming as to whether in fact a letter or some specific instruction has been given.

BLITZER: But at the same time the Vatican, Monsignor Kerr, has been very forthcoming, relatively speaking, with details of his health. In earlier episodes, if you will, of deteriorating health for a pope, there was usually either silence or very often there were even misleading statements.

KERR: This is true, Wolf. But this is a man who has really lived his life in the media, if you will, in so many ways. And he's been open to so many things that other popes have not been. I think he has realized, and he has set a tone in the Vatican that, you know, transparency is the way of the times, and I'm going to be transparent.

I think the very fact that he went through the changes in his looks, his bearing, his abilities, all of that he willingly did in public and I think even coming to the window, the last time we saw him at the window, he came there despite of all the infirmities that he was experiencing, and that were very clear to the world. And yet he wanted the world to know that even an aging person with infirmities has value, has meaning.

And you know, something that hasn't been said a lot. This man is a workaholic. He has worked every single day of his life in one way another. And he's not going to stop just because he's sick and getting old.

BLITZER: The story has been told, Father O'Connell, often that when he was young boy growing up in Poland, his dream was to become an actor and he wound up becoming pope. Talk a little bit about that.

O'CONNELL: Well, I think that is a very, very significant thing and it's had a significant influence in the way in which he decided to carry the papacy forward and really in a sense to embody the Gospel. He is an actor, and I think at times, and i don't say this with any disrespect, you get a glimmer in his eye, you get a sense even of being a little bit of a ham at times at times in his appearances. And that's a very positive and a very good thing to see that.

But that's true. I think that's been brought to bear many, many times. And he's used it, and this is the genius of the man, he's used it to his advantage -- not to his own personal advantage, but to his advantage as the chief shepherd and chief teacher of the church.

BLITZER: A lot of us remember his first visit to the United States in 1979 after he became pope and especially the first is stop which was Boston, home of a large Catholic community in the United States.

I want to play for you a very brief little excerpt, a clip of some remarks he made then.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POPE JOHN PAUL II: I want to tell everyone that the pope is your friend.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Typical, you remember that visit in 1979, Monsignor Kerr. I don't know how close you were to Pope John Paul II, how many times you have seen him, you've met him, but talk a little bit about that first visit to the United States as pope.

KERR: Well, I think it was an extraordinary visit. I think a lot of us Americans were touched deeply because it was the arrival of the pope, there had been many, many chapters written in American history that spoke of the day the pope would come to America, not all of them were very flattering and not all of them were very anticipatory with joy. And here was the pope in the United States. And he was received not only by the Catholics of Boston, but by many in Boston and in Massachusetts. And he was just a wonderfully warm person.

I remember particularly when he went to Philadelphia. And he -- it was one of those moments where everybody was trying to perform beautifully. And he met with a group of priests from all over the United States, and the microphone didn't work. And it didn't work twice, it didn't work three times. And finally they found a microphone that worked. And he took that microphone and he looked at all of us, and the tension was great. But he looked at all of us and he smiled. And as he smiled he just relieved everybody, and he said, I will go back to Europe and I will tell Europeans not everything in America works.

BLITZER: Very cute.

KERR: It really was.

BLITZER: I remember his visit in 1993 to the United States, especially in Denver, I was there. I was the White House correspondent for CNN at that time. And President Clinton went to Denver to meet with the pope. You remember that visit to the United States, talk a little bit about that, although I believe we are getting some -- a live picture now from -- where are we going? In Baltimore, a cardinal is speaking right now. Maybe we should listen in.

CARDINAL WILLIAM KEELER, ARCHBISHOP OF BALTIMORE: ... taking notes and the talks. We were always delighted when he spoke because he was so clear and concise and to the point. And his interventions on behalf of all of the bishops of Poland moved the discussions along.

In '79, he came to Philadelphia, celebrated Mass there at Logan Circle. And afterwards I met him at dinner in Cardinal Prove's (ph) house and I said...

(BELLS CHIMING)

KEELER: That happens.

(BELLS CHIMING)

BLITZER: Cardinal Keeler in Baltimore, interrupted by the bells, perhaps appropriately enough. As we wait for those bells to drop down, we will go back to the cardinal after this. I want to take a quick break, as we go to break, though, more of our coverage coming up, Pope John Paul II, you are looking at these live pictures from Detroit, the Blessed Sacrament Cathedral, Mass under way right now. We will continue our special coverage right after this.

UINDENTIFIED MALE: Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven.

CROWD: Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil.

UINDENTIFIED MALE: Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the truth of thy woman, Jesus.

CROWD: Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

UINDENTIFIED MALE: Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

CROWD: Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

UINDENTIFIED MALE: Hail Mary, full of grace, the lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

CROWD: Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. You are looking at these live pictures of St. Peter's Square. Thousands have gathered to pray for Pope John Paul II. The Vatican says he is gravelly ill and deteriorating.

These are live pictures, people have come from all over Italy, probably from all over the world to pay their respects, to join in these prayer services, informal prayer services at St. Peter's Square. There are more formal services happening all over the world, including in Detroit. Take a look at this, the Blessed Sacrament Cathedral in Detroit, where the cardinal, Adam Maida, himself Polish, has been participating in this Mass, people praying for Pope John Paul II. We are continuing our coverage, rejoining us here in our Washington studio, Father David O'Connell, the president of Catholic University; and Monsignor William Kerr, the executive director of the Pope John Paul II Cultural Center.

Let's take a brief look back for a moment at the pope's life. Pope John Paul II was born in Poland Karol Wojtyla in 1920. He was ordained a priest on November 1st, 1946, and was elevated to cardinal on June 28th, 1967. On September 28th, 1978, he became the 264th pope. He chose the name John Paul II to honor his three immediate predecessors. Pope John Paul (sic) XXIII, Pope Paul VI, and Pope John Paul I, who served just 34 days before his death.

John Paul II is the first Polish pope. CNN's Chris Burns joining us on the phone now live from Krakow, Poland where John Paul was a bishop and a cardinal.

It must be very emotional in Krakow -- Chris.

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, even at this hour, it's after midnight -- well after midnight, and there are still thousands of people outside of the archbishop's residence, this where the pope had -- well, when he was archbishop, spoke through the window there with the people late into the night. In fact, even three years ago, when he made his last visit here, he was there, again, speaking to the people. A very intimate sort of meeting they had, speaking, just small talk and singing songs to each other, but it was really quite a very touching moment.

And tonight the people are back, but they are facing a window that is closed, and through that window, you see a black crucifix with a golden Christ on it. And during the day there were services right outside there throughout the day, including observing the 12 stations of the cross, singing the various songs related to that and the prayers, sort of equating Christ's suffering along with the pope's suffering as a nation here had suffered really for hundreds of years, and had freed itself, the people see this as a country that freed itself thanks to this man, thanks to Pope John Paul II who really helped to unite the country and gained the respect not only of the anticommunist opposition, but the communists themselves.

In fact, tonight the president of Poland and the prime minister, Aleksander Kwasniewski and Marek Belka, both former communists, were celebrating Mass this evening in Warsaw's Army Cathedral. And across the country there are vigils with candles and incense and chants, and here these thousands of people outside that archbishop's residence as well, staying there with candles. And it does seem like they will be there throughout the night.

BLITZER: Poland, a very, very Catholic country. We will get back to you, Chris, thank you very much.

Father O'Connell, the burial of the pope, do we know where he will be buried?

O'CONNELL: Yes, he will be buried in St. Peter's Basilica. I'm sure that there is a tomb that has been prepared for him. The ceremony is a very elaborate ceremony, although as Monsignor Kerr, I'm sure, will agree, the ceremony has been much simplified over what it had been under previous pontificates.

BLITZER: So earlier speculation he could be buried in his homeland of Poland, that is not going to happen, Monsignor?

KERR: Wolf, I don't believe that's going to happen. There's a place in the Vatican for the popes, his immediate predecessors are there. And that's where this man, who is a son of Poland, but is the pope. And he is going to be there as the successor of St. Peter and the Vicar of Christ.

BLITZER: As we continue our conversation, I want to put up on the screen some pictures of people praying, still photos, people praying all over the world. A billion Catholics, as you know. This pope, he became a cardinal at a relatively young age, Father O'Connell.

O'CONNELL: Yes, and that's something that really amazes me as you look back on his life. And it shows you in a way, doesn't it, how God might work. At the age of 47, this man was made a cardinal.

BLITZER: Which is very young.

O'CONNELL: Which is very young. And he had a significant role to play in the Second Vatican Council prior to the time when he was made a cardinal, and significant influence on some papal writings prior to his own pontificate. Extraordinary.

BLITZER: He was the first non-Italian pope in quite a while, Monsignor. How extraordinary was that?

KERR: Well, I think it was extraordinary in many ways, Wolf. One was that people were very, very supportive of Italians holding that office. And yet there was an emergence of the church in so many different lands. And this man was an extraordinarily gifted person who rose, I think, in the estimation of his colleagues, so much so that he was, as you say, named a cardinal early in his life, early in his career. And he was respected by so many others that he was simply the choice of the cardinals.

I think there were many stories about that conclave, some of which are probably authentic, others of which are just at the level of rumor and anecdote. But he was chosen, I think, because of the man's breadth. He had an extraordinary reach to the world. He traveled a great deal before he became pope. He was a philosopher and an academic.

BLITZER: Those deliberations are very, very confidential, Father O'Connell, aren't -- do we ever know how that happened, do we ever get the full story?

O'CONNELL: I don't think we ever do. There is a great deal of secrecy that is designed in the process itself. And you can understand the reason there. As I was listening to Monsignor and to our conversation earlier, I was struck by a story that I've been told recently about Pope John Paul II, and even in his suffering how he has maintained his spirit and his humor.

Every five years all the bishops of the world have to come and pay their respect and make a report to the Holy Father. And we've been in that process this year. It's called the Ad Limina visits. And this past summer, a group of Spanish bishops came. And a younger bishop came in to visit with the pope. And when he saw the pope and aged he had become and infirm, he just broke down into tears. And he embraced the pope and he said, Holy Father, Holiness, he said, I fear this is going to be the last time I see you. And the pope looked at him and said, "Why, are you sick?"

BLITZER: He did have a great -- does still, I'm sure -- had a great sense of humor that was well-known. No matter where he went, people sort of laughed along with him, didn't they?

KERR: They did. He laughed along with them, you know. I think the statement he made in Boston, "The pope is your friend, " was very much the spirit of all of his visits. And he was able to reach beyond, if you will, the formal protocols that kept people at a distance. And his smile, his humor, his genuine love for people just transcended everything that would keep them from him. And he enjoyed people, and he enjoyed joking with them; he enjoyed singing with his friends. When I was over in Rome in November, I happened to be there at a time when his name day, St. Charles Baromeo (ph), was being celebrated. And he had a number of his Polish friends in for lunch. And he never forgot his roots. He never forgot his friends. And he's always lived in the joy of life. He's loved life.

BLITZER: And it's fair to say his closest aid to this very day is a fellow Pole, isn't that right?

KERR: That's right. That's correct. That's very correct.

O'CONNELL: And you know, what's very interesting too, when you have the chance to see him, as we have so often, up close and personal, he comes to life when he's in the presence of young people, and especially children. You know, no matter how debilitated or bent over he might have been, as soon as he saw a child or as soon as he saw a young person, he responded with such great love and such great affection.

In a sense, I think what we have seen was a man who became pope at a young age, at the age of 58, go from being our brother to our father, to our grandfather right before our eyes.

BLITZER: We are getting live pictures in from New York City, St. Patrick's Cathedral, where a mass is about to begin. There, you're looking at these pictures from New York City right now. This is probably something that's going to happen all over this country, indeed around the world.

I believe our Adaora Udoji is outside St. Patrick's Cathedral. Are you there, Adaora? ADAORA UDOJI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I absolutely am. Good evening, Wolf. We have watched a steady flow of people coming in and outside of St. Patrick's Cathedral here. It's really considered the center of Catholic life here in New York City, and many of them, as you mentioned, are heading in for that 5:30 mass. Now that's a regularly scheduled mass. But we also spoke to archdiocese spokespeople today who told us they have seen far more people than usual going inside the church, flowing into the church today, given how gravely ill Pope John Paul II is -- going inside,

They've been lighting candles. They've been praying. We peeked in not too long ago and nearly every candle was lit. And Wolf, we're talking about people who are coming from all over. We met some tourists from Canada who called the pope a great man. We met some folks from around this area, a couple from Long Island who said they felt compelled to come down to St. Patrick's because they so admired the pope and his promotion of peace.

Now the head of the New York Archdiocese, Cardinal Egan, who was appointed by the pope in 2000, like so many today, said that he holds the pope in a special p7lace in his heart.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL EDWARD EGAN, NEW YORK ARCHDIOCESE: My feelings are feelings of one who has kind have lost a father. He named me a bishop, completely unexpectedly that I would ever be -- I thought I was going to continue until 75 in Rome, and then he sent me to the capital of the world. And McGee, that's everything, isn't it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

UDOJI: New York Archdiocese has decided to extend the hours of St. Patrick's today, which usually closes at 8:45 p.m. They are going to leave it open until 10:00 p.m. today. They are trying to give the city's 4 million Catholics, that's nearly half the population of New York City, time to come in and worship if they choose -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Adaora. Thank you very much.

The Bishop Brocata (ph) at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York leading this mass underway right now. Father O'Connell, you have a mass that you've scheduled tomorrow at Catholic University.

O'CONNELL: There will be a mass. Actually Cardinal McCarrick, who is...

BLITZER: ...the archbishop of Washington.

O'CONNELL: The archbishop of Washington, who's the chancellor of Catholic University, has decided to remain in Washington. You know, we heard today earlier that he was leaving today, but he's staying in Washington, and he's going to celebrate a mass at the Basilica of the National Shrine on our campus. And certainly all of our students and so many people in the Washington area will come to that mass at 12:00 Noon, tomorrow. BLITZER: All right. We'll be watching that as well.

You're looking at these pictures. These are live pictures. You see the light is on in the third floor apartment, the residence of Pope John Paul II. It's well past midnight, past 12:35 a.m. in Rome. Actually, it's a moment that people are watching those lights remaining on at this time. Last night, those lights were dark, but they're on right now.

We'll continue our coverage . We'll take a quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You're looking at these live pictures of St. Peter's Square in Rome, well past midnight. Thousands have gathered, thousands of the faithful, to remember and, of course, to honor Pope John Paul II, who is gravely ill right now, according to his spokesman at the Vatican. Jim Bittermann is in Rome, our correspondent. He's there. Sanjay Gupta, our medical correspondent, is at the CNN Center. Jim update our viewers, who may just be tuning in, on the latest statements you're getting from the Vatican.

BITTERMANN: Well, nothing but bad news from the Vatican all day long today. In fact, with each medical bulletin, the pope's condition was described in a little more dire terms. And I think a lot of people are watching and waiting tonight in St. Peter's Square with a sort of sense of inevitability about what's going to happen here, I think inevitability fueled by what they're hearing from the top churchman. Earlier this evening in St. Peter's Square at a rosary ceremony, where rosaries were recited in the name of the pope, Angelo Camastri (ph), the pope's vicar-general for the Vatican City, said that" the pope had opened the doors to Christ for millions of the faithful, now this evening, or this night, Christ opens the door to the pope." So a very grim message there from the archbishop.

And then a little earlier from the cardinal, Cardinal Camillo Ruini at a mass that was celebrated across town at San Giovanni in Lateran, Cardinal Ruini said that the pope "already sees and touches the Lord. He's already united with our Soul Savior." In other words inevitable in terms of what we're hearing from the top churchmen of the church. So I think, you know, in those terms, that people are waiting with some expectations that they're going to hear something before the night it out -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Well, Jim, how would that announcement -- is there any word or indication how that announcement, that grim announcement would be made?

BITTERMAN: Well, once again in the last hour, we've heard more rumors that the Vatican press office may be fueling up to do some kind of statement but no confirmation of that from the press office. Officially, it's Cardinal Ruini who would come on, perhaps, Italian television. That's the way he did it when Pope Paul VI died. He did do it, it was Vicar of Rome who did it, who was charged with that responsibility. But it would be in this case, Cardinal Ruini who would go before the cameras, and videotape some kind of statement that would then go out worldwide.

That would be the official confirmation that the pope had died. That hasn't happened yet. There were a flurry of rumors earlier in the evening, later tonight in the Vatican, they said that the pope is still of live. And I think one of the indications of that and one of the things -- one of the signals that's being sent here by those lights on at St. Peter's Square is that the pope continues to live.

BLITZER: Kim Bitterman (ph), we'll be getting back to you.

Sanjay Gupta our medical correspondent, how long can a man, 84- years-old with Parkinson's, frail as he is, with the deteriorating condition, how long can he survive in this kind of situation?

GUPTA: Twenty-four to 48 hours, probably, Wolf. It's hard to say for sure, obviously, there are no absolutes. But we've been following this along for about 24 hours, actually 26 hours now Wolf. Just to bring people up to speed here, a little timeline, it was about 3:00 in the afternoon yesterday that we started to learn of his urinary tract infection, a concerning one at that. He had an episode of low blood pressure, high fever. Antibiotics were given at that time.

It's interesting, Wolf, just a few hours later we got some word that the condition had stabilized, which meant that, obviously, things had improved, but also suggested that may be it had been unstable for sometime at well. And then about 1:00 in the morning much more serious news. septic shock had set in, cardio-circulatory collapse. And then by 5:30 in the morning, very serious blood pressure, unstable.

At noon, Wolf, you and I were talking and we heard that all of the biological parameters, everything that you could possibly measure, they said, looked worse. And that was, obviously, concerning. But they also said visible participation in prayer, which was a bit surprising to most of us, including myself as a physician. It's hard to say -- we haven't received much word since then, but 24 to 48 hours, probably, with that degree of septic shock is as much as anybody could imagine that he could survive, Wolf.

BLITZER: All, we'll be check back with you Sanjay. Thank you very much.

Father O'Connell, the president of Catholic University, I know you have to leave, and Monsignor Kerr you have to leave as well. But before you do, I want both of you to just give us your thoughts, your emotion, your feeling right now as we watch this gravely ill pope presumably continue to move towards the end.

O'CONNELL: Of course, for me, there is a very real sense of sadness, this man has been the leader of the Catholic Church, the pope, for my entire priesthood. And I have had the privilege of serving under his leadership and under his teaching and his ministry and consider it an extraordinary privilege that I have been given in my life. But at the same time I know the pope has suffered much and it's time for the pope to be at peace with the God that he served so well. And so, my prayers and my thoughts are with him tonight that that journey may be easy and that journey may be quick.

BLITZER: And there's no doubt that he has lead one remarkable life. He must be at peace with himself -- Monsignor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, Wolf, I think -- I feel as though a member of my family is going through the final moments of his life. He has been, you know, in my living room. He has been in the cities where I've been. We've been together on a number of occasions. And he, of course, has been the leader of my church, but he's also been a member of my family, in a sense, because he's been warm in so many ways to so many people and loving. And I think his legacy is going to be that wonderful love that he's been able to share with millions of people in all situations, all situations. And he's preached consistently the solidarity of the human family. And I think the human family is responding now with sadness, but also with prayers, that this man indeed, does have a peaceful moment.

BLITZER: Monsignor Kerr, thank you so much for joining us, and Father O'Connell from Catholic University, thanks to you as well.

Joining us now from Rome is the president of St. John's University, Father Donald Harrington.

I wonder Father Harrington, you're there, give us your perspective. You are on the scene. This must be so emotional to be in Rome at a moment like this.

REV. DONALD HARRINGTON, PRES. ST. JOHNS UNIVERSITY: Yes, it really is, Wolf. Good evening and thank you for this opportunity. I just happened to be in Rome for a few days on business at our Rome campus. And to be here is truly a very special and blessed experience. In moving around Rome today, I couldn't help but to reflect back on the election of John Paul II. And my recollection of his comments at that time were that, "I'm a foreigner. I've come from a foreign land, but I am now Italian." And clearly the Italian people believe that now tonight.

BLITZER: What kind of impact did he have personally on you, father, Pope John Paul II?

HARRINGTON: I was honored to meet him a number of times. There's one experience I would share with you that was the most striking, which is approximately eight years ago, I was here in Rome with the men's soccer team from St. Johns that had just won the national championship. And his holiness gave the team and ourselves an audience. And his interaction with thing young men that day, his conversations about their great successes on the field showed his humanness. And his awareness of St. Johns was most reassuring to them and to me. But most of all to see him with young people, and I think over and over again, people will reflect on that in the coming days.

BLITZER: In Rome is there a sense right now that it's only minutes hours, maybe a day or two away? Do you get any kind of indication, because you're there on the scene.

HARRINGTON: Yes, clearly people believe it's almost any moment. As I got into the cab this evening to come over here for this, the cab driver asked me if the holy father had passed away, yet. People are waiting to hear the bells ring in all the churches of Rome. There's clearly a sense of anticipation.

BLITZER: We've got a statement from the vicar general of the Vatican City saying this evening, or this night, "Christ opens the door to the pope." That's a significant metaphor, if you will, a significant feeling that the Vatican is trying to present. Talk a little bit about that.

HARRINGTON: I would be pleased to. This morning I was at a business conference here in Rome, and I was speaking with a former senator from the Rome Senate, the Italian Senate. And I asked him how he believed the people were feeling. And he said, of course, sadness because we know it's a time of great loss, but it's also a time of great culmination. And I believe that's my own feelings in my heart and my mind. And the people I have spoken with see this as a great culmination of a truly incredible life. I don't think we have -- we've even had a glimpse, yet, of what the impact of this man has been. History, I think, will prove him to be even greater than any of us have experienced to date.

BLITZER: Father Harrington, I'm going to have you stand by for a moment.

I want to bring in Father Thomas Reese the author of "Inside the Vatican." he's joining us from our New York bureau. He's a senior fellow at the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown University as well.

Go through -- bring out your feelings, father, at what is happening this extraordinary moment in the history of the Catholic Church right now.

REV. THOMAS REESE, "AUTHOR "INSIDE THE VATICAN": Well, it is -- it is an extraordinary moment. And for me personally, who has followed his actions as editor of "America Magazine" and written about him. He's' -- He's a figure who has been larger than life. He's had such an impact on the world, on world events, through his support of solidarity and bringing about an end of communism in Eastern Europe and that. And the great work that he's done in improving relations between Catholics and Jews around the world. And this prophetic stance, this prophetic voice that he's been in the world for justice and peace. I mean, this man is larger than life. And, you know, we're sad, I think, to see him suffering. I think, as he approaches eternal life we, you know, we rejoice with him that he's returning to the Lord. And we pray -- we pray for him now in his final hours.

BLITZER: Father Reese, he was so active, not only in improving relations between Catholics and Jews, but also so active in the Middle East, especially, in trying to help the Israelis and the Arabs get to some sot of peaceful agreement. These were high issues on his agenda. May -- dare I say at the top of his agenda?

REESE: Clearly, you know, he saw his role as pope to be a force for peace and justice in the world. And he was not afraid to speak out strongly for the rights of Palestinians while at the same time, being very strong in his condemnation of terrorism and attacks on civilians. You know, he tried to balance those things. He tried to bring people together for peace. He was one who was always for peace, very critical, for example, of the U.S. war in Iraq -- in fact, both wars. So he's -- you know, the Middle East, you know, as the birthplace of Jesus, he was very concerned by the great exodus from that land, of Christians who are moving out of there, who feel they're caught in the middle of this battle between Jews and Muslims.

So, yeah, this was something that was very close to his heart and he worked hard at.

BLITZER: I'm going to have Father Reese and Father Harrington stand by as we watch these live pictures from St. Peter's Square in Rome at the Vatican. We'll take another short break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Police in Rome estimate that some 70, 000 people have come to St. Peter's Square -- you're looking at live pictures -- to pray -- to pray for John Paul II. The lights are on in his third- floor apartment even at this late hour, approaching 1:00 a.m. In Rome, we're continuing our coverage. Pope John Paul II gravely ill.

Continuing our conversation, the Reverend Donald Harrington, the president of St. Johns University -- he's joining us from Rome -- and Father Thomas Reese, the author of "Inside the Vatican" -- he's joining us from our New York bureau. We'll get back to them in just a moment.

Pope John Paul II has visited 129 countries, more than any other pope. He's visited Africa more than any other continent, but his travels have taken him all over the world. Not surprisingly, John Paul visited his native Poland more than any other country, making nine official visits, the most recent being less than a year ago on his 84th birthday.

The United States is tied with France for second place with seven visits. The pope was in Boston in 1979. His most recent visit to the United States, was back in 1999.

A quarter of a century later, Boston still remembers John Paul's first papal visit to the United States. Let's go to our national correspondent, Gary Tuchman. He's outside Boston's Cathedral of the Holy Cross. Gary.

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, as the sun sets here in Boston, they are getting ready to celebrate a mass to pray for Pope John Paul II inside here at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross. It begins at 6:00 Eastern Time. And this is the first church that Pope John Paul II went to as pontiff. That was back in 1979. October 1st, he came into this church. He delivered a homily, and then went to the Boston Common and Public Garden, the two green spots in downtown Boston right next to the state capitol, and that's where more than 1 million people waited out in the streets to participate in a mass that day. People still talk about it like it was the birth of their child or their grandchild. They remember 25 years ago when the pope came here. And that's why the mass that will be taking place, this special mass just set up a short while ago, will be so emotional.

Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: All right, Gary. Thanks.

Chris Lawrence is standing by in Chicago where mass is expected to begin momentarily as well -- Chris.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it's very sad here. And I wish I could explain that better to you, but if you sit in those pews and you look in people's faces, there's just a feeling inside of just real sadness. You know, Chicago has a huge Polish population. Pope John Paul II is a Polish man, and that meant something here. One of the men inside told me that he has made him proud to say that I am from Poland. And one of the young priests who was inspired to the priesthood by the pope told me in a very serious tone that the way he has dealt with his sickness has been an example to the entire world. Then he started laughing and said, and you know what? He's a stubborn Pole.

You know, his ethnicity has a real impact here in this community. And we talked to one mother inside who literally had a spring break with her children planned to start tomorrow. When she heard how sick the pope had become, she canceled it immediately, took her kids in here to church and has been praying for the pope the last few hours.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I love him. I saw him two years ago in Rome when I was in Rome, and I love him very much. And I don't know what's going to be after him.

LAWRENCE: And as a Catholic, as someone about my age who has never known any other pope except John Paul II, that's a question a lot of us have today is, what could it even be like without him -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Chris Lawrence in Chicago, thank you very much. Father Harrington, the president of St. John's University, is still with us. He's in Rome. Explain from your perspective, Father Harrington, what's going through the minds of Catholics around the world right now.

HARRINGTON: I would think a great sense of loss, Wolf. As was just said, very few people remember -- while I do, and many others do, many do not remember another pope. And this man has touched so many lives in so many different ways. Tonight for example here in Rome, my sense is that the soul of Rome is shining forth. It's a prayerful atmosphere as though each individual was touched personally by the Holy Father. And I presume that's what's happening all around the world right now.

BLITZER: I think well said, Reverend Harrington. Thank you very much for spending a few moments with us. Reverend Donald Harrington from St. John's University. Father Reese, let me let you wrap up our coverage this hour with your final thought.

REESE: Well, I think that our prayers are with Pope John Paul as he approaches death. And as Christians, we, like him, look upon death not as the end, not -- but really as the beginning of new life. And I think we approach death with hope, with -- and actually even with joy. He has run the race. He has finished his work. He now approaches his father in heaven, and he goes to his reward, which he richly deserves.

BLITZER: And in the coming days, Father Reese, what can we expect to happen at this site, the St. Peter's Square? We're looking at these live pictures right now. Give us anticipation what will happen there.

REESE: Well, the -- you know, when the pope dies, everything is quite laid out by church law about what happens. The funeral will take place within four to six days. There will be an eight-day -- nine-day mourning period after the pope dies. There will be masses. He will be laid in state in St. Peter's Basilica. And then, of course, 15 days after he dies, the cardinals will gather in a conclave to pray and to discuss and ultimately to elect his successor.

BLITZER: Father Reese, we have to leave it right there. Thanks so much for joining us. And thanks to all of our guests this hour.

We're going to continue our coverage of Pope John Paul II. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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