Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Larry King Live

A Look At Legacy of Pope John Paul II

Aired April 02, 2005 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, Pope John Paul II is dead at age 84. As the world mourns this remarkable man of faith, we reflect on the legacy of his extraordinary life and the challenges facing the church he led for so long.
We'll talk with Vatican insiders and much more, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

We have a great array of guests in the next hour to discuss the passing of Pope John Paul. And we begin by phone with Reverend Billy Graham, chairman of the board of the Billy Graham of Evangelistic Association who, in his statement, said that this pope was the most influential voice for morality and peace in the world in the last 100 years.

Reverend Graham, you want to expand on that, "the most important voice"?

REV. BILLY GRAHAM, EVANGELISTIC ASSOCIATION: Yes. I had the privilege of seeing the Pope on several occasions at the Vatican. And tonight, I have a very strange feeling of loss. I almost feel as though one of my family members has gone. I loved him very much and had the opportunity of discussing so many things with him. And we wrote each other several times during the years.

KING: Did he actually say to you once, "We are brothers"?

GRAHAM: I'm sorry?

KING: Did he tell you once that you and he were brothers?

GRAHAM: That's correct. He certainly did. He held my hand the first time that I met him about 19 -- he's just been Pope for two years when I saw him first. Because when he was elevated to the papacy, I was preaching in his cathedral in Krakow that very day. And we had thousands of people in the streets. And watching the television today of Krakow has brought back many memories.

KING: You said that he was an Evangelist.

GRAHAM: He was, indeed. He traveled throughout the world to bring his Christian message to the world. And we see tonight the outpouring from the world that he touched. And I think he touched almost everybody in the whole world.

KING: What, Billy, in your thoughts -- you said you feel like it's a personal loss. What in the human sense was so special about him?

GRAHAM: I think it was his background in Poland. And I had finished preaching all over Poland, gotten to know many people, and I knew a little bit about where he came from.

And he was a suffering pope, too. He suffered as much as anybody you could ever imagine. His mother died when he was young. And he had that terrible assassination attack. And through it all, he taught us how to suffer. And I think in recent days he's taught us how to die.

KING: There is no question in your mind that he is with God now?

GRAHAM: Oh, no. There may be a question about my own, but I don't think Cardinal Wojtyla, or the Pope -- I think he's with the Lord, because he believed. He believed in the cross. That was his focus throughout his ministry, the cross, no matter if you were talking to him from personal issue or an ethical problem, he felt that there was the answer to all of our problems, the cross and the resurrection. And he was a strong believer.

KING: I understand that you've been invited to the funeral, but because of your own health, you can't attend. But someone in the Graham family is going to go?

GRAHAM: That's correct.

KING: Do you know who will go?

GRAHAM: I don't have the physical strength to go, and I have been invited. I was invited about six or seven months ago by the Vatican ahead of time. And they've asked that I come. So I ask if I could send my daughter. They wanted a woman to come representing me. So I'm asking my daughter, Anne Lotz, to go. And she's going with an associate of mine. And then my son, Franklin, will be going to the enthronement of the new Pope.

KING: Billy, thanks so much for always giving us the time. We'll see you in New York in June.

GRAHAM: Thanks...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: God bless, Billy.

GRAHAM: ... your panel.

KING: Reverend Billy Graham on the death of Pope John.

Nancy Reagan, who was with us last night, issued this statement: "Today, the world mourns the loss of his holiness, Pope John Paul II. He touched the hearts of the young and the old, brought tears to the eyes of those inspired by his very presence, provided unparalleled leadership to his church, and gave hope to those who had none. He and Ronny spoke many times about their desire for people everywhere to have the benefit and the blessings of freedom. They worked together to end the Cold War, and in the end, they prevailed.

"Ronny and I met with him on a number of occasions during our time at the White House and again one time after we left Washington. Every time I saw him, it was a wonderful experience. But I'll always remember how special it was when just the two of us sat alone talking at the Vatican in 1985 about the problems of drug abuse in our young people. My thoughts and prayers are with his family in Poland and members of the church worldwide."

That, from Nancy Reagan. Statements also from President George W. Bush, President Clinton, former President George H. W. Bush, and former President Carter, Kofi Annan, as well, the secretary-general of the U.N. And by the way, tomorrow night, we'll be live in New York. And one of our special guests will be the former Secretary of State Colin Powell.

Here with us in the studio is Father Michael Manning, the Roman Catholic Priest Society of the Divine Word, host of "The Word in the World," pastor at St. Anthony's Church in San Bernardino. And in Washington, is Father William J. Byron, Roman Catholic Priest Society of Jesuits, syndicated columnist, Catholic News Service, research professor at Sellinger's School of Business at Loyola College and the former president of Catholic University of America.

You were telling me something, Father Manning, before we began about something a priest said to you about this Pope?

FATHER MICHAEL MANNING, HOST OF "THE WORD IN THE WORLD": One of the things that I hadn't thought about was, in the last ten years of his life, he was declining greatly. And it was really, in many ways, it was almost embarrassing to see him bent over, hardly speaking, and at times, even drooling.

And you'd think, well, in our society, we want to kind of put that away. But you know what he said? He said, by his willingness to stand and be present to that, let's make sure that all those people that we want to put away, those in wheelchairs, those that perhaps have a nervous condition that would make us embarrassed because they aren't normal the way we think they should be, he gave honor and he gave a place of dignity to those kind of people in a powerful way.

What a wonderful way to go. Rather than running away, giving honor to those people that are weak.

KING: Yes, there's no nursing home for him.

MANNING: No, no.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Father Byron, we use the word "great" a lot. Was he a great Pope?

FATHER WILLIAM J. BYRON, CATHOLIC NEWS SERVICE COLUMNIST: I think he was, Larry. He was great. We do use that word a lot, and in this case, it's not misplaced. In the Christian tradition, when a good person dies, we're both sad and joyful, joyful, because as Dr. Graham just indicated, we believe he's with the Lord. But we're sad because we've lost something that is so special a person, so special an influence, so special. But we go from good to great, the joy is all the greater and the sadness all the deeper.

KING: We'll take a break and come back. And others will join us from Rome on this special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: By the way, we will be including phone calls in this hour.

Remaining with us, Father Michael Manning here in Los Angeles, in Washington, Father William J. Byron.

Joining us in Rome is Christopher Dickey of Newsweek Magazine. He's the Paris bureau chief. He's covered Pope John Paul II for more than a decade. Father Jonathan Morris, vice director of the Seminary of the Legionaries of Christ. And John Allen, Vatican reporter for The National Catholic Reporter and an analyst for CNN observing the Vatican.

Chris Dickey, what in your opinion separated him from other popes?

CHRIS DICKEY, NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE: Certainly his longevity is a big part of it, the strength of his will, the force of his character. And he's also the first media pope, if you will. There was never any other pontiff before who lived in the age of satellite television, the Internet, none who could project himself onto the world scene the way this pontiff has done, and none certainly who (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as much as this one did.

So he really is a Pope like the world had never seen before. And we don't know if we'll ever see another one like him.

KING: Father Morris, is there a sense to the Catholic, is there a sense of personal loss?

FATHER JONATHAN MORRIS, LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST SEMINARY OF ROME: Oh, there certainly is. It's a very strange, surreal ambience that we're living in right here just a few steps away from the Vatican, from the papal apartment. All of us feel great, great loss. But at the same time, we feel a great joy knowing that he has made it.

The message, I think, is the most important thing here that we need to go deep into. He was a great communicator, unbelievable communicator, but he had a message. And that message he was able to communicate all the way up into the very last moments of his life.

And certainly we really miss him, and we're going to miss him even more in these days, but he did a great job. And we want to emulate that.

KING: John Allen, we can't duck that. There were aspects of him, were there not, that were very controversial?

JOHN ALLEN, THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER: Oh, no question. I mean, before he was elected Pope, John Paul II preached a retreat for Pope Paul VI. And he titled his collected sermons in that retreat "Sign of Contradiction." And in some sense, I think, as a Pope, he lived up to that motto.

I mean, he was a man who was not afraid to take strong, tough positions knowing the price of that would be some people wouldn't agree with him. Inside the Catholic Church, even, some of his stands had been divisive. There's a sort of liberal wing in Catholicism, particularly in the developed world, that actually felt quite disenfranchised under this papacy.

Some would see that as unnecessary alienation. Others, however, would see it as the price of speaking the truth clearly and boldly.

KING: But also, Father Manning, many of the liberal wing of the party applauded him for his stands, as we discussed last night, on capital punishment -- totally opposed to it -- on rich nations helping poor nations, right?

MANNING: And general care for the poor, general care for those that everybody forgot. That seemed to be the strongest thing he could be in the midst of visiting a president of a nation.

And then I've heard the story of him driving along and then all of a sudden looking and seeing a poor, brave beggar on the side of the road. He stopped the whole travelcade, get down, and cared for that person. That's being liberal. That's getting away from some of the tried and true ways of being Pope. He came and he cared for people with great freedom.

KING: Father Byron, how much of a part of the Pope's makeup was the fact that he was in Poland when the Nazis marched in?

BYRON: Oh, I think that had an extraordinary influence on him. He lived under totalitarian rule. He lived under Nazism. He lived under Communism. He went to an underground seminary. You just are shaped by that.

And even manual labor, when the Nazis had control of Poland, he worked in a factory. So he knew what it was to be with the people that, as was just mentioned, the poor, the disenfranchised, he could line up and commit himself with them. It had a major impact on his life.

KING: And Chris Dickey, because of that upbringing, a major association with Jews, right? We're going to talk with Rabbi Schneier in the next half hour. But isn't that true, that he had a very close affinity for the Jewish people?

DICKEY: Well, sure. A lot of his close friends were Jewish people, but more importantly at the level the Vatican as a state and the Church, he initiated and pursued a rapprochement with the Jews and with Israel that was very, very important. There were mutual diplomatic relations under him. He visited Israel. And certainly he took many more initiatives toward Israel and for the Jews than any of his predecessors, even, in fact, apologizing for what had happened during the Holocaust and for the role that some Christians had played in that.

KING: Here we forget that. He did formally apologize.

We'll take a break and be back with more. And we'll also be including your phone calls on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE on this sad and somewhat joyful day, saluting a great man. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Let's take some calls.

Winston-Salem, North Carolina, hello?

CALLER: Yes, I'd like to ask the guests how they felt the Pope used his sense of humor and how he stacked up with other popes and communicating with the masses and individuals with sense of humor?

KING: Father Morris?

MORRIS: I'm not sure if I heard the question perfectly...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: She wanted to know, what about his use of sense of humor and using humor in his effective communicating with people?

MORRIS: Sure. I think he even was able to do that within his own suffering. He put himself out in front of the cameras of the whole world in very compromising situations. We have the image of the doves that were flying back into his window in a moment of great suffering for himself. And you could see the smile on his face.

Those are very human elements. Those are very human experiences. And what he said there is that life is worth living even in suffering, life is worth living at every stage of his life. He communicated that to us when he was the athletic, dynamic man who was climbing mountains, but he also communicated that same message of love being greater than hate and life being greater than death, through his humor and in every stage of his life. And we're grateful to him for that.

KING: Desert Hot Springs, California, hello?

CALLER: Yes, hello. Does anyone on your panel know if, in his younger years before he became Pope, if he had a girlfriend, ever had a girlfriend?

KING: John Allen, do we know any of that historically?

ALLEN: Actually, Larry, he had a very close female friend in the acting troupe that he was part of in Krakow in the war years. But she has repeatedly denied there was any kind of romantic link between them, although a lot of their friends thought they were involved in some way.

She said their relationship was sort of at a deeper level than that. So far we know, Karol Wojtyla the young man never had a serious romantic relationship. He was focused first on trying to prepare for an acting career and then, eventually, of course, studying for the priesthood.

KING: Why did he become a priest, John?

ALLEN: Well, I mean, the Catholic answer to that is because he was called by God.

KING: What was his answer?

ALLEN: I think part of that -- you know, this -- well, I think more than that, in addition to that, I think it's quite clear that Karol Wojtyla saw the storm clouds of history gathering as a young man. He saw, as you rightly pointed out at the beginning, he saw the Nazi occupation of Poland. He saw the Soviet era coming.

And I think he believed that in that darkness the world needed light. And I think the best way that he could conceptualize to bring light to the world was by preaching the gospel to it, in which he believed so firmly. And that to him meant the priesthood. And though he later became a bishop and ultimately Pope, he remained throughout his life, at his core and in his heart, a dedicated, tireless priest.

KING: Where do the Catholics believe, Father Manning, he is now?

MANNING: He's in Heaven right now. I believe that he is...

KING: And that is like a place?

MANNING: Not a place, because he's a spirit now. God is a spirit. But I believe in a way that we use words like eyes and place is now seeing God face-to-face, the long one that he's longed for with all of his writing, with all of his searching.

KING: He's seeing Him, in a spirit sense?

MANNING: He's seeing God, there's a spiritual reality. And because of that, he sees truth. And the truth we're searching for, he now has a grasp of that truth in a wonderful, rich way. And that's the joy and the fullness of everything that he's longed for.

KING: Father Byron, do you believe that, as well?

BYRON: Yes, I do, Larry. And you know, the risen body of Christ is a physical body, and it's somewhere. We believe that we're going to rise again.

That's the whole -- it's very interesting for this event, sad as it is, to happen in the Easter season, when we as Christians believe that we lived the paschal mystery. We go through death to life, and it provides an interpretative framework for the way we look at the world and the way we deal with reality.

We go through disappointment to satisfaction, through defeat to victory, ultimately through death to life. And it's that life that he now enjoys. And it's never going to end.

KING: As a Pope, Father Manning, does he get treated better?

(LAUGHTER)

MANNING: No, I don't believe -- I don't think so.

KING: Well, I was just asking.

MANNING: No, no, I don't think so. I think that the simple person that might be dying of cancer alone in their bed could be just as much loved by Jesus. And there isn't a hierarchy of something like that. But that kind of becomes secondary when you're in the face of God.

KING: But Father Byron, your church believes in a hierarchy doesn't it?

BYRON: Yes, we do, but things flatten out up there in Heaven.

(LAUGHTER)

But you know, a point that we ought to make is that a lot of people presumed that there was no anxiety, that there was no real suffering as he was facing death. You know, he has the right as a human to be afraid to die. And he needed our prayers, the prayers that just welled up from all over the world.

But he went through a human experience, which is to die. And the wonderful thing is, he showed us all the way.

KING: Also sure showed millions how to live.

BYRON: Very much so, and die.

KING: Thank you, Father Manning, thank you -- and die -- Father Byron.

Chris Dickey, Father Jonathan Morris and John Allen will remain with us. And we'll be joined by Rabbi Arthur Schneier of the Park East Synagogue in New York who knew the Pope very well, and Jude Dougherty, dean emeritus, Department of Philosophy, Catholic University, also a friend of the Pope's. They'll join us from New York and Washington. Chris Dickey, Father Morris, John Allen will remain with us in Rome.

We thank Father Manning and Father Byron.

Remember, another edition of LARRY KING LIVE tomorrow night from New York. Among the guests, Colin Powell. We'll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) POPE JOHN PAUL II, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH: Obey the blessing of Almighty God, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, descend upon you and admit you remain forever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Chris Dickey, Father Jonathan Morris and John Allen remain with us from Rome.

Joining us now in New York is Rabbi Arthur Schneier, Rabbi of the Park East Synagogue, founder and president of the Appeal of Conscience Foundation. He knew Pope John II well, had six private audiences with him.

And in Washington is Jude Dougherty, dean emeritus, the Department of Philosophy, Catholic University, a friend of Pope John Paul II for nearly three decades, first met him when he was the cardinal archbishop of Krakow.

Rabbi Schneier, how do you explain this unusual association between a Pope and the Jews?

RABBI ARTHUR SCHNEIER, PARK EAST SYNAGOGUE: I believe that Pope John Paul II was very much influenced by the proximity to Auschwitz. He saw the brutality, man's inhumanity to man, particularly to the Jews. He also lived under Communist rule, the oppression of religious freedom.

And so we met the first time, actually, in Warsaw in 1967. And I could clearly see a man who was scarred by that experience and wanted to make his mission to perfect an imperfect world.

KING: Had he been to Auschwitz?

SCHNEIER: Yes, actually, he actually visited Auschwitz. And incidentally, I speak now as a Holocaust survivor. It's the graveyard of my grandparents who met their death in Auschwitz, and most of my family. The Pope did visit Auschwitz concentration camp in 1979.

KING: Jude Dougherty, what was he like as a cardinal?

JUDE DOUGHERTY, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: Well, I invited him to Washington not as a cardinal but as a professional philosopher. He was in the States to attend an ecclesiastical conference in Philadelphia. But folks here had gotten wind of his presence. He had lectures scheduled for Harvard and for Berkeley. And I was asked to give him a platform in Washington, which I did.

But he came not as cardinal archbishop of Krakow, though he was that. But he came as a professional philosopher. And he gave an address that I think could only be understood by professional philosophers. The audience that I had assembled was largely that of the Washington Philosophy Club made up of professors and others in the Washington, D.C., area. And it was a sophisticated audience, but he wowed them. And did he do so.

We had a reception afterwards. And no one who attended that reception has ever forgotten what it was like to be in his presence. This is the cardinal archbishop of Krakow. But he was a professional philosopher of considerable skill.

And if we look at his legacy which is forthcoming, people will forget all these images. But what he's leaving behind is a literary corpus that will be explored for decades to come, if not centuries.

KING: Well pointed out.

John Allen, was his selection of Pope a surprise?

ALLEN: Well, it was a huge surprise, Larry, largely because there had not been a non-Italian Pope for 455 years. But for those who were sort of in-the-know, that is, his brother cardinals, it wasn't quite as much of a bolt from the blue.

In fact, he was elected, of course, in October of 1978. In May of that year, there was -- his birthday, of course, is in May -- there was a gathering at the apartment of the secretary of state in Vatican. A number of cardinals were present. And the secretary of state at the time, Cardinal Jean Villot, leaned over to another cardinal and whispered to him, pointing across the table at Wojtyla, that that man could be Pope.

And he later sent that cardinal a note saying, "I want to confirm what I said. I believe that that man could be Pope." And of course, they ended up being very prophetic words, because later that year he was elected to become the successor of Peter.

Wojtyla was a voracious reader, a man of great intellect, had traveled widely, a great cosmopolitan figure, a man of rock-solid intellect, and then showed great political savvy at navigating the very dangerous waters of being a Polish bishop during the Soviet era. So he had what we might say was the right stuff to be Pope.

KING: If memory serves me correct, Chris Dickey, there were a lot of ballots, weren't there?

DICKEY: Yes, there were several ballots. I don't remember the exact number. I don't think anybody can tell you more about that actually than John Allen on those kinds of technicalities. But, yes, it took quite a while to elect Wojtyla as a Pope.

KING: John Allen, were there many ballots?

ALLEN: Yes. As you know, Larry, the proceedings inside the conclave unfold under a veil of secrecy, so what we are left with -- we piece these things together from cardinals after the fact. The consensus is that there were eight ballots, which would make that one of the longer conclaves of the 20th century.

KING: You need a what, a majority?

ALLEN: Yes, you need a two-thirds majority.

KING: Two-thirds?

ALLEN: And of course, the problem -- well, not a problem, but part of the complication there was John Paul I reigned only 33 days. There simply wasn't the time for the cardinals really to organize themselves. They weren't expecting to go back into another conclave. And John Paul I died quite suddenly.

So obviously the politics, so to speak, of trying to come to consensus were a little bit more elongated in that experience than they might otherwise have been.

KING: We'll be right back with our guests. We'll be including your phone calls on this special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Laura and I join people across the Earth in mourning the passing of Pope John Paul II. The Catholic Church has lost its shepherd, the world has lost a champion of human freedom, and a good and faithful servant of God has been called home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Let's take another call. Tucson, Arizona, hello.

CALLER: Hello. I wanted to know if the Pope had any blood relation and if he had a living will.

KING: John Allen, do you know?

ALLEN: Well, he has only distant relatives. Of course, as a very young man, he lost his mother. When he was in his late teens, he lost his brother, and then, of course, in short order, his father. There are a few distant Wojtyla relatives in Poland.

As far as the question of the will goes, every Pope does leave a last will and testament, and presumably that's now in the hands of the camerlengo, that's the cardinal who governs the Church during this interregnum, a Spanish cardinal by the name of Eduardo Martinez Somalo. We would expect that the contents of that will and testament would eventually be made public.

KING: Would you gather, Rabbi Schneier, that he will be talked about in synagogues?

SCHNEIER: At my synagogue, we offered prayer this morning and throughout his illness. We believe, and I personally believe, that it's a personal loss. But he was a righteous man. And when a righteous man dies, it's not only the Catholic community in this case but the entire world is bereft and is mourning. KING: Jude Dougherty, was the gist of his talk religious, or philosophical, or both?

DOUGHERTY: Well, when he was here in Washington as a professional philosopher, he spoke as a philosopher. And I think what we heard was a chapter, or what was become a chapter, in his magnum opus as a professor of the acting person.

And he was talking about community and responsibility, and that is a theme that he's carried through in many of his writings, the need for a kind of awareness of solidarity with the whole of humanity and a responsibility proportionate to what one can, as a matter of fact, effect.

SCHNEIER: Well, actually, this solidarity is based on his great love for every man, woman and child. Tremendous compassion, not only the intellect, but heart.

KING: He kissed the man who shot him.

Los Alamos, California, hello.

CALLER: Well, actually, it's Los Olivos, California.

KING: Los Olivos, thank you.

CALLER: The Pope loved our Lady of Fatima. And when he was shot by a Turkish man, it happened on the anniversary of the operation which he credited to his survival. And he, on the last operation, our Lady promised to the three shepherds that those devoted to her and did the Rosary and did other things would be saved. And he died on the first Saturday of one of those days that our Lady had promised. Do you believe that the Pope wanted to die today?

KING: John Allen?

ALLEN: Well, you know, ultimately, the question of the moment of your death is something that none of us can control. But I do think there's something poetically appropriate, if you'd like, about that coincidence.

Moreover, we should mention that, in addition to this having a connection to the Fatima tradition, it's also the case that today is the feast day of divine mercy, that's a feast day that the Pope himself put on the liturgical calendar of the Catholic Church, which has its origins in a series of revelations given to a Polish nun named Faustina Kowalska that the Pope himself beatified and canonized.

And so there are a number of strange or, if you'd like, providential, perhaps, connections to the day and the time which John Paul passed from this Earth.

KING: So John, how many of the cardinals voting at the conclave will be cardinals he appointed?

ALLEN: All but three, Larry. There are 117 cardinals under 80 who are eligible to participate in the conclave. All but three of them have been named by this Pope. The three cardinals who are not are Cardinals Ratzinger, Baum, an American, and perhaps the best-named cardinal, Cardinal Sin of the Philippines.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: On that note, we'll take a break and come back with more calls for our outstanding panel. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: It's approaching early morning in the Vatican. They put their clocks ahead already. Don't forget, when we went on the air last night, it was 4:00 a.m. Tonight when we went on the air, it was 5:00 a.m. And don't forget, at 2:00 a.m., whatever your local time is in the United States, Canada, and the like, at 2:00 a.m. tonight, put the clock ahead an hour.

Starkville, Mississippi, hello.

CALLER: Hello, how are you today?

KING: Hi, fine.

CALLER: My question to the panel is, do you ever think that there will be a Pope that will be selected from the United States? And if not, why do you think...

KING: ... not?

Chris Dickey, do you think they'll ever be an American pope?

DICKEY: I think it'll be a long time. There seems to be a general consensus on a couple of points. One is that the United States is already so powerful there's a resistance to the idea of having an American pope just for that reason. And the other is, I think, that the American church has had quite a few problems and is often at odds with other elements in the Catholic Church.

So I think those two factors will probably prevent an American from becoming pope now, and probably for the foreseeable future.

KING: Father Morris, what about a black pope?

MORRIS: It's certainly possible. You think back to 455 years without any other pope besides an Italian pope, who would have thought Karol Wojtyla? Nobody. In fact, when his name was mentioned, there were silence, all of the journalists looking for the names on their lists. He wasn't one of the papabile.

So certainly there could be a black pope. If we had to say that likely, probably not. The African church is still a young church. Nevertheless, we can say with all confidence that the next pope is going to be a pope that's going to lead the church in this specific time, in this specific way that God wants.

KING: John Allen, a Latino pope?

ALLEN: Actually, I think there's a very strong argument for that, Larry. I mean, let's not forget that two-thirds of the Catholics in the world today live in the global south, almost half of them in Latin America alone. It would be a very forward-looking choice.

Moreover, the church in Latin America has been under siege of some extent in recent years with the growth of the so-called sects that are these very missionary, Evangelical and Pentecostal movements. They've been making significant inroads into what were once homogenous Catholic populations.

And I think some of the cardinals believe the election of a Latin American pope would be a real shot in the arm to the Latin American Catholic Church. And so it's a good bet.

KING: Tulsa, Oklahoma, hello.

CALLER: Yes, hello?

KING: Hi.

CALLER: Yes, I was just wondering, as a gay man, you know, my concern is that, why has the Catholic Church, and the Pope in particular, not given more tolerance to gay people and especially gay marriage?

KING: Jude Dougherty, why?

DOUGHERTY: Well, I think it has given quite a bit of tolerance. The church makes a distinction between sin and the sinner. There is no way the church can revoke the teaching of the Ten Commandments, the teaching of the tradition of the church, but it can be sympathetic to people who do not live up to the moral standards it sets forth.

The standards are there and will be perennial. And you can't take them back. But people are weak. And they deviate from a path. And this is true, not only of the homosexual community, but a whole spectrum of humanity can fail to observe, as it were, the law that has been set forth and set forth prominently in the Ten Commandments but in the perennial teaching of the church.

But again, the basic empathy for the sinner will always remain within the church. We have the sacrament of confession, where the penitent...

KING: There are those who believe that being gay is not a sin and not a choice.

DOUGHERTY: Well, some believe that purloining is not a sin. We have many chief executives on trial for this or for that, for doing what they thought was perfectly legitimate. But people are held to standards, whether they agree with them or not.

KING: We'll take a break and come back with our remaining moments with this panel. We'll have another special edition of LARRY KING LIVE tomorrow night with Colin Powell. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Christopher Dickey wanted to comment about the last question.

Chris?

DICKEY: No, we were just talking about it. I think that the question about the nature of gay lifestyles, gay inclination is a very interesting one for the church. And I think many people in the church think it's a little bit more complicated than just a question of sin and sinners.

And Father Jonathan and I were just talking about this. In fact, maybe he's the guy to ask about that question.

KING: All right.

Father?

MORRIS: Thanks for passing it off to me. I think an important distinction is between an inclination -- actually, the catechism makes a distinction, the inclination to a homosexual tendency and a gay lifestyle.

In other words, if I have a strong inclination in this way, that is not a sin. There's a lot of inclinations that we have that we don't out on. What the church says is, acting out on something that goes against not only church law, and church tradition, and church doctrine, but also human nature, that's the sin. The sinner always needs to be tolerated. But here I think the important distinction is between inclination, even a deeply seated inclination, and a gay lifestyle.

KING: Is this a dilemma, Rabbi, to you, as well?

SCHNEIER: I believe that this discussion is very inappropriate. I think we should be concentrating now on the memory of Pope John Paul. And if you want to devote, Larry, a special program on this very important issue, by all means let this panel gather and we'll discuss it.

KING: Well taken. Well taken, Rabbi.

Indianapolis, hello?

CALLER: Hello. I'm wondering if it's possible for this Pope to become a saint?

KING: How does that work, John Allen?

ALLEN: Well, of course, it's possible. I mean, the Catholic Church has a very well-established process for making saints. And nobody was better at that than John Paul II. He canonized some 476 saints, beatified almost 1,400 people, more not only than any previous pope but then all popes in history put together.

The way it would work is there's a mandatory waiting period of five years. And most of the new popes should choose to waive it -- John Paul did that for Mother Teresa -- then a process could open in the diocese of his birth which, of course, would be the archdiocese of Krakow. And there's a process to be followed that would then come to Rome. Ultimately, it would be up to a future pope to make that decision.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that a process will be launched. And you know, if I had five dollars, I would put it a positive outcome.

KING: Could the next pope make Jude Dougherty a saint?

DOUGHERTY: May I respond to that earlier question, Larry? I think John Paul II already a saint. The pope does not create saints or make saints. He recognizes sanctity in individuals and certifies, in effect, that they've led good lives that can be emulated. But sanctity is the vocation of all of us. Everyone who is within the faith believes that a proper life will lead to sanctity, that is to eternal life with God himself.

SCHNEIER: While Judaism does not have saints in the Jewish tradition, we do believe that there are 36 righteous individuals who keep this world alive. We just lost one, and that was Pope John Paul II. He was one, in my opinion, one of the 36 righteous that kept this world going.

KING: Is there a general confirmation of who the other 35 are?

SCHNEIER: You can name a few. It could be, by the way, a shoemaker. It could be a taxi driver. It does not have to be an individual of high-profile. But certainly people who reach out, just as Pope John Paul has reached out, was a trail-blazer, not only...

KING: Yes, you can say that. We're running out of time, Rabbi, but you can certainly say he fit that. A righteous man died today.

We thank Chris Dickey, Father Jonathan Morris, John Allen, Rabbi Arthur Schneier, and Jude Dougherty for joining us in this segment of LARRY KING LIVE. We'll be back again live tomorrow night. We'll be in New York. And one of our special guests will be former Secretary of State Colin Powell.

Right now, we continue our live coverage, going back to Rome and our own Anderson Cooper, who I believe should pop up on that screen right now. There he is.

Mr. Cooper, the ball is yours.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 2, 2005 - 21:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, Pope John Paul II is dead at age 84. As the world mourns this remarkable man of faith, we reflect on the legacy of his extraordinary life and the challenges facing the church he led for so long.
We'll talk with Vatican insiders and much more, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

We have a great array of guests in the next hour to discuss the passing of Pope John Paul. And we begin by phone with Reverend Billy Graham, chairman of the board of the Billy Graham of Evangelistic Association who, in his statement, said that this pope was the most influential voice for morality and peace in the world in the last 100 years.

Reverend Graham, you want to expand on that, "the most important voice"?

REV. BILLY GRAHAM, EVANGELISTIC ASSOCIATION: Yes. I had the privilege of seeing the Pope on several occasions at the Vatican. And tonight, I have a very strange feeling of loss. I almost feel as though one of my family members has gone. I loved him very much and had the opportunity of discussing so many things with him. And we wrote each other several times during the years.

KING: Did he actually say to you once, "We are brothers"?

GRAHAM: I'm sorry?

KING: Did he tell you once that you and he were brothers?

GRAHAM: That's correct. He certainly did. He held my hand the first time that I met him about 19 -- he's just been Pope for two years when I saw him first. Because when he was elevated to the papacy, I was preaching in his cathedral in Krakow that very day. And we had thousands of people in the streets. And watching the television today of Krakow has brought back many memories.

KING: You said that he was an Evangelist.

GRAHAM: He was, indeed. He traveled throughout the world to bring his Christian message to the world. And we see tonight the outpouring from the world that he touched. And I think he touched almost everybody in the whole world.

KING: What, Billy, in your thoughts -- you said you feel like it's a personal loss. What in the human sense was so special about him?

GRAHAM: I think it was his background in Poland. And I had finished preaching all over Poland, gotten to know many people, and I knew a little bit about where he came from.

And he was a suffering pope, too. He suffered as much as anybody you could ever imagine. His mother died when he was young. And he had that terrible assassination attack. And through it all, he taught us how to suffer. And I think in recent days he's taught us how to die.

KING: There is no question in your mind that he is with God now?

GRAHAM: Oh, no. There may be a question about my own, but I don't think Cardinal Wojtyla, or the Pope -- I think he's with the Lord, because he believed. He believed in the cross. That was his focus throughout his ministry, the cross, no matter if you were talking to him from personal issue or an ethical problem, he felt that there was the answer to all of our problems, the cross and the resurrection. And he was a strong believer.

KING: I understand that you've been invited to the funeral, but because of your own health, you can't attend. But someone in the Graham family is going to go?

GRAHAM: That's correct.

KING: Do you know who will go?

GRAHAM: I don't have the physical strength to go, and I have been invited. I was invited about six or seven months ago by the Vatican ahead of time. And they've asked that I come. So I ask if I could send my daughter. They wanted a woman to come representing me. So I'm asking my daughter, Anne Lotz, to go. And she's going with an associate of mine. And then my son, Franklin, will be going to the enthronement of the new Pope.

KING: Billy, thanks so much for always giving us the time. We'll see you in New York in June.

GRAHAM: Thanks...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: God bless, Billy.

GRAHAM: ... your panel.

KING: Reverend Billy Graham on the death of Pope John.

Nancy Reagan, who was with us last night, issued this statement: "Today, the world mourns the loss of his holiness, Pope John Paul II. He touched the hearts of the young and the old, brought tears to the eyes of those inspired by his very presence, provided unparalleled leadership to his church, and gave hope to those who had none. He and Ronny spoke many times about their desire for people everywhere to have the benefit and the blessings of freedom. They worked together to end the Cold War, and in the end, they prevailed.

"Ronny and I met with him on a number of occasions during our time at the White House and again one time after we left Washington. Every time I saw him, it was a wonderful experience. But I'll always remember how special it was when just the two of us sat alone talking at the Vatican in 1985 about the problems of drug abuse in our young people. My thoughts and prayers are with his family in Poland and members of the church worldwide."

That, from Nancy Reagan. Statements also from President George W. Bush, President Clinton, former President George H. W. Bush, and former President Carter, Kofi Annan, as well, the secretary-general of the U.N. And by the way, tomorrow night, we'll be live in New York. And one of our special guests will be the former Secretary of State Colin Powell.

Here with us in the studio is Father Michael Manning, the Roman Catholic Priest Society of the Divine Word, host of "The Word in the World," pastor at St. Anthony's Church in San Bernardino. And in Washington, is Father William J. Byron, Roman Catholic Priest Society of Jesuits, syndicated columnist, Catholic News Service, research professor at Sellinger's School of Business at Loyola College and the former president of Catholic University of America.

You were telling me something, Father Manning, before we began about something a priest said to you about this Pope?

FATHER MICHAEL MANNING, HOST OF "THE WORD IN THE WORLD": One of the things that I hadn't thought about was, in the last ten years of his life, he was declining greatly. And it was really, in many ways, it was almost embarrassing to see him bent over, hardly speaking, and at times, even drooling.

And you'd think, well, in our society, we want to kind of put that away. But you know what he said? He said, by his willingness to stand and be present to that, let's make sure that all those people that we want to put away, those in wheelchairs, those that perhaps have a nervous condition that would make us embarrassed because they aren't normal the way we think they should be, he gave honor and he gave a place of dignity to those kind of people in a powerful way.

What a wonderful way to go. Rather than running away, giving honor to those people that are weak.

KING: Yes, there's no nursing home for him.

MANNING: No, no.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Father Byron, we use the word "great" a lot. Was he a great Pope?

FATHER WILLIAM J. BYRON, CATHOLIC NEWS SERVICE COLUMNIST: I think he was, Larry. He was great. We do use that word a lot, and in this case, it's not misplaced. In the Christian tradition, when a good person dies, we're both sad and joyful, joyful, because as Dr. Graham just indicated, we believe he's with the Lord. But we're sad because we've lost something that is so special a person, so special an influence, so special. But we go from good to great, the joy is all the greater and the sadness all the deeper.

KING: We'll take a break and come back. And others will join us from Rome on this special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: By the way, we will be including phone calls in this hour.

Remaining with us, Father Michael Manning here in Los Angeles, in Washington, Father William J. Byron.

Joining us in Rome is Christopher Dickey of Newsweek Magazine. He's the Paris bureau chief. He's covered Pope John Paul II for more than a decade. Father Jonathan Morris, vice director of the Seminary of the Legionaries of Christ. And John Allen, Vatican reporter for The National Catholic Reporter and an analyst for CNN observing the Vatican.

Chris Dickey, what in your opinion separated him from other popes?

CHRIS DICKEY, NEWSWEEK MAGAZINE: Certainly his longevity is a big part of it, the strength of his will, the force of his character. And he's also the first media pope, if you will. There was never any other pontiff before who lived in the age of satellite television, the Internet, none who could project himself onto the world scene the way this pontiff has done, and none certainly who (UNINTELLIGIBLE) as much as this one did.

So he really is a Pope like the world had never seen before. And we don't know if we'll ever see another one like him.

KING: Father Morris, is there a sense to the Catholic, is there a sense of personal loss?

FATHER JONATHAN MORRIS, LEGIONARIES OF CHRIST SEMINARY OF ROME: Oh, there certainly is. It's a very strange, surreal ambience that we're living in right here just a few steps away from the Vatican, from the papal apartment. All of us feel great, great loss. But at the same time, we feel a great joy knowing that he has made it.

The message, I think, is the most important thing here that we need to go deep into. He was a great communicator, unbelievable communicator, but he had a message. And that message he was able to communicate all the way up into the very last moments of his life.

And certainly we really miss him, and we're going to miss him even more in these days, but he did a great job. And we want to emulate that.

KING: John Allen, we can't duck that. There were aspects of him, were there not, that were very controversial?

JOHN ALLEN, THE NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER: Oh, no question. I mean, before he was elected Pope, John Paul II preached a retreat for Pope Paul VI. And he titled his collected sermons in that retreat "Sign of Contradiction." And in some sense, I think, as a Pope, he lived up to that motto.

I mean, he was a man who was not afraid to take strong, tough positions knowing the price of that would be some people wouldn't agree with him. Inside the Catholic Church, even, some of his stands had been divisive. There's a sort of liberal wing in Catholicism, particularly in the developed world, that actually felt quite disenfranchised under this papacy.

Some would see that as unnecessary alienation. Others, however, would see it as the price of speaking the truth clearly and boldly.

KING: But also, Father Manning, many of the liberal wing of the party applauded him for his stands, as we discussed last night, on capital punishment -- totally opposed to it -- on rich nations helping poor nations, right?

MANNING: And general care for the poor, general care for those that everybody forgot. That seemed to be the strongest thing he could be in the midst of visiting a president of a nation.

And then I've heard the story of him driving along and then all of a sudden looking and seeing a poor, brave beggar on the side of the road. He stopped the whole travelcade, get down, and cared for that person. That's being liberal. That's getting away from some of the tried and true ways of being Pope. He came and he cared for people with great freedom.

KING: Father Byron, how much of a part of the Pope's makeup was the fact that he was in Poland when the Nazis marched in?

BYRON: Oh, I think that had an extraordinary influence on him. He lived under totalitarian rule. He lived under Nazism. He lived under Communism. He went to an underground seminary. You just are shaped by that.

And even manual labor, when the Nazis had control of Poland, he worked in a factory. So he knew what it was to be with the people that, as was just mentioned, the poor, the disenfranchised, he could line up and commit himself with them. It had a major impact on his life.

KING: And Chris Dickey, because of that upbringing, a major association with Jews, right? We're going to talk with Rabbi Schneier in the next half hour. But isn't that true, that he had a very close affinity for the Jewish people?

DICKEY: Well, sure. A lot of his close friends were Jewish people, but more importantly at the level the Vatican as a state and the Church, he initiated and pursued a rapprochement with the Jews and with Israel that was very, very important. There were mutual diplomatic relations under him. He visited Israel. And certainly he took many more initiatives toward Israel and for the Jews than any of his predecessors, even, in fact, apologizing for what had happened during the Holocaust and for the role that some Christians had played in that.

KING: Here we forget that. He did formally apologize.

We'll take a break and be back with more. And we'll also be including your phone calls on this edition of LARRY KING LIVE on this sad and somewhat joyful day, saluting a great man. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Let's take some calls.

Winston-Salem, North Carolina, hello?

CALLER: Yes, I'd like to ask the guests how they felt the Pope used his sense of humor and how he stacked up with other popes and communicating with the masses and individuals with sense of humor?

KING: Father Morris?

MORRIS: I'm not sure if I heard the question perfectly...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: She wanted to know, what about his use of sense of humor and using humor in his effective communicating with people?

MORRIS: Sure. I think he even was able to do that within his own suffering. He put himself out in front of the cameras of the whole world in very compromising situations. We have the image of the doves that were flying back into his window in a moment of great suffering for himself. And you could see the smile on his face.

Those are very human elements. Those are very human experiences. And what he said there is that life is worth living even in suffering, life is worth living at every stage of his life. He communicated that to us when he was the athletic, dynamic man who was climbing mountains, but he also communicated that same message of love being greater than hate and life being greater than death, through his humor and in every stage of his life. And we're grateful to him for that.

KING: Desert Hot Springs, California, hello?

CALLER: Yes, hello. Does anyone on your panel know if, in his younger years before he became Pope, if he had a girlfriend, ever had a girlfriend?

KING: John Allen, do we know any of that historically?

ALLEN: Actually, Larry, he had a very close female friend in the acting troupe that he was part of in Krakow in the war years. But she has repeatedly denied there was any kind of romantic link between them, although a lot of their friends thought they were involved in some way.

She said their relationship was sort of at a deeper level than that. So far we know, Karol Wojtyla the young man never had a serious romantic relationship. He was focused first on trying to prepare for an acting career and then, eventually, of course, studying for the priesthood.

KING: Why did he become a priest, John?

ALLEN: Well, I mean, the Catholic answer to that is because he was called by God.

KING: What was his answer?

ALLEN: I think part of that -- you know, this -- well, I think more than that, in addition to that, I think it's quite clear that Karol Wojtyla saw the storm clouds of history gathering as a young man. He saw, as you rightly pointed out at the beginning, he saw the Nazi occupation of Poland. He saw the Soviet era coming.

And I think he believed that in that darkness the world needed light. And I think the best way that he could conceptualize to bring light to the world was by preaching the gospel to it, in which he believed so firmly. And that to him meant the priesthood. And though he later became a bishop and ultimately Pope, he remained throughout his life, at his core and in his heart, a dedicated, tireless priest.

KING: Where do the Catholics believe, Father Manning, he is now?

MANNING: He's in Heaven right now. I believe that he is...

KING: And that is like a place?

MANNING: Not a place, because he's a spirit now. God is a spirit. But I believe in a way that we use words like eyes and place is now seeing God face-to-face, the long one that he's longed for with all of his writing, with all of his searching.

KING: He's seeing Him, in a spirit sense?

MANNING: He's seeing God, there's a spiritual reality. And because of that, he sees truth. And the truth we're searching for, he now has a grasp of that truth in a wonderful, rich way. And that's the joy and the fullness of everything that he's longed for.

KING: Father Byron, do you believe that, as well?

BYRON: Yes, I do, Larry. And you know, the risen body of Christ is a physical body, and it's somewhere. We believe that we're going to rise again.

That's the whole -- it's very interesting for this event, sad as it is, to happen in the Easter season, when we as Christians believe that we lived the paschal mystery. We go through death to life, and it provides an interpretative framework for the way we look at the world and the way we deal with reality.

We go through disappointment to satisfaction, through defeat to victory, ultimately through death to life. And it's that life that he now enjoys. And it's never going to end.

KING: As a Pope, Father Manning, does he get treated better?

(LAUGHTER)

MANNING: No, I don't believe -- I don't think so.

KING: Well, I was just asking.

MANNING: No, no, I don't think so. I think that the simple person that might be dying of cancer alone in their bed could be just as much loved by Jesus. And there isn't a hierarchy of something like that. But that kind of becomes secondary when you're in the face of God.

KING: But Father Byron, your church believes in a hierarchy doesn't it?

BYRON: Yes, we do, but things flatten out up there in Heaven.

(LAUGHTER)

But you know, a point that we ought to make is that a lot of people presumed that there was no anxiety, that there was no real suffering as he was facing death. You know, he has the right as a human to be afraid to die. And he needed our prayers, the prayers that just welled up from all over the world.

But he went through a human experience, which is to die. And the wonderful thing is, he showed us all the way.

KING: Also sure showed millions how to live.

BYRON: Very much so, and die.

KING: Thank you, Father Manning, thank you -- and die -- Father Byron.

Chris Dickey, Father Jonathan Morris and John Allen will remain with us. And we'll be joined by Rabbi Arthur Schneier of the Park East Synagogue in New York who knew the Pope very well, and Jude Dougherty, dean emeritus, Department of Philosophy, Catholic University, also a friend of the Pope's. They'll join us from New York and Washington. Chris Dickey, Father Morris, John Allen will remain with us in Rome.

We thank Father Manning and Father Byron.

Remember, another edition of LARRY KING LIVE tomorrow night from New York. Among the guests, Colin Powell. We'll be right back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) POPE JOHN PAUL II, LEADER OF CATHOLIC CHURCH: Obey the blessing of Almighty God, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, descend upon you and admit you remain forever.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Chris Dickey, Father Jonathan Morris and John Allen remain with us from Rome.

Joining us now in New York is Rabbi Arthur Schneier, Rabbi of the Park East Synagogue, founder and president of the Appeal of Conscience Foundation. He knew Pope John II well, had six private audiences with him.

And in Washington is Jude Dougherty, dean emeritus, the Department of Philosophy, Catholic University, a friend of Pope John Paul II for nearly three decades, first met him when he was the cardinal archbishop of Krakow.

Rabbi Schneier, how do you explain this unusual association between a Pope and the Jews?

RABBI ARTHUR SCHNEIER, PARK EAST SYNAGOGUE: I believe that Pope John Paul II was very much influenced by the proximity to Auschwitz. He saw the brutality, man's inhumanity to man, particularly to the Jews. He also lived under Communist rule, the oppression of religious freedom.

And so we met the first time, actually, in Warsaw in 1967. And I could clearly see a man who was scarred by that experience and wanted to make his mission to perfect an imperfect world.

KING: Had he been to Auschwitz?

SCHNEIER: Yes, actually, he actually visited Auschwitz. And incidentally, I speak now as a Holocaust survivor. It's the graveyard of my grandparents who met their death in Auschwitz, and most of my family. The Pope did visit Auschwitz concentration camp in 1979.

KING: Jude Dougherty, what was he like as a cardinal?

JUDE DOUGHERTY, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY: Well, I invited him to Washington not as a cardinal but as a professional philosopher. He was in the States to attend an ecclesiastical conference in Philadelphia. But folks here had gotten wind of his presence. He had lectures scheduled for Harvard and for Berkeley. And I was asked to give him a platform in Washington, which I did.

But he came not as cardinal archbishop of Krakow, though he was that. But he came as a professional philosopher. And he gave an address that I think could only be understood by professional philosophers. The audience that I had assembled was largely that of the Washington Philosophy Club made up of professors and others in the Washington, D.C., area. And it was a sophisticated audience, but he wowed them. And did he do so.

We had a reception afterwards. And no one who attended that reception has ever forgotten what it was like to be in his presence. This is the cardinal archbishop of Krakow. But he was a professional philosopher of considerable skill.

And if we look at his legacy which is forthcoming, people will forget all these images. But what he's leaving behind is a literary corpus that will be explored for decades to come, if not centuries.

KING: Well pointed out.

John Allen, was his selection of Pope a surprise?

ALLEN: Well, it was a huge surprise, Larry, largely because there had not been a non-Italian Pope for 455 years. But for those who were sort of in-the-know, that is, his brother cardinals, it wasn't quite as much of a bolt from the blue.

In fact, he was elected, of course, in October of 1978. In May of that year, there was -- his birthday, of course, is in May -- there was a gathering at the apartment of the secretary of state in Vatican. A number of cardinals were present. And the secretary of state at the time, Cardinal Jean Villot, leaned over to another cardinal and whispered to him, pointing across the table at Wojtyla, that that man could be Pope.

And he later sent that cardinal a note saying, "I want to confirm what I said. I believe that that man could be Pope." And of course, they ended up being very prophetic words, because later that year he was elected to become the successor of Peter.

Wojtyla was a voracious reader, a man of great intellect, had traveled widely, a great cosmopolitan figure, a man of rock-solid intellect, and then showed great political savvy at navigating the very dangerous waters of being a Polish bishop during the Soviet era. So he had what we might say was the right stuff to be Pope.

KING: If memory serves me correct, Chris Dickey, there were a lot of ballots, weren't there?

DICKEY: Yes, there were several ballots. I don't remember the exact number. I don't think anybody can tell you more about that actually than John Allen on those kinds of technicalities. But, yes, it took quite a while to elect Wojtyla as a Pope.

KING: John Allen, were there many ballots?

ALLEN: Yes. As you know, Larry, the proceedings inside the conclave unfold under a veil of secrecy, so what we are left with -- we piece these things together from cardinals after the fact. The consensus is that there were eight ballots, which would make that one of the longer conclaves of the 20th century.

KING: You need a what, a majority?

ALLEN: Yes, you need a two-thirds majority.

KING: Two-thirds?

ALLEN: And of course, the problem -- well, not a problem, but part of the complication there was John Paul I reigned only 33 days. There simply wasn't the time for the cardinals really to organize themselves. They weren't expecting to go back into another conclave. And John Paul I died quite suddenly.

So obviously the politics, so to speak, of trying to come to consensus were a little bit more elongated in that experience than they might otherwise have been.

KING: We'll be right back with our guests. We'll be including your phone calls on this special edition of LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Laura and I join people across the Earth in mourning the passing of Pope John Paul II. The Catholic Church has lost its shepherd, the world has lost a champion of human freedom, and a good and faithful servant of God has been called home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Let's take another call. Tucson, Arizona, hello.

CALLER: Hello. I wanted to know if the Pope had any blood relation and if he had a living will.

KING: John Allen, do you know?

ALLEN: Well, he has only distant relatives. Of course, as a very young man, he lost his mother. When he was in his late teens, he lost his brother, and then, of course, in short order, his father. There are a few distant Wojtyla relatives in Poland.

As far as the question of the will goes, every Pope does leave a last will and testament, and presumably that's now in the hands of the camerlengo, that's the cardinal who governs the Church during this interregnum, a Spanish cardinal by the name of Eduardo Martinez Somalo. We would expect that the contents of that will and testament would eventually be made public.

KING: Would you gather, Rabbi Schneier, that he will be talked about in synagogues?

SCHNEIER: At my synagogue, we offered prayer this morning and throughout his illness. We believe, and I personally believe, that it's a personal loss. But he was a righteous man. And when a righteous man dies, it's not only the Catholic community in this case but the entire world is bereft and is mourning. KING: Jude Dougherty, was the gist of his talk religious, or philosophical, or both?

DOUGHERTY: Well, when he was here in Washington as a professional philosopher, he spoke as a philosopher. And I think what we heard was a chapter, or what was become a chapter, in his magnum opus as a professor of the acting person.

And he was talking about community and responsibility, and that is a theme that he's carried through in many of his writings, the need for a kind of awareness of solidarity with the whole of humanity and a responsibility proportionate to what one can, as a matter of fact, effect.

SCHNEIER: Well, actually, this solidarity is based on his great love for every man, woman and child. Tremendous compassion, not only the intellect, but heart.

KING: He kissed the man who shot him.

Los Alamos, California, hello.

CALLER: Well, actually, it's Los Olivos, California.

KING: Los Olivos, thank you.

CALLER: The Pope loved our Lady of Fatima. And when he was shot by a Turkish man, it happened on the anniversary of the operation which he credited to his survival. And he, on the last operation, our Lady promised to the three shepherds that those devoted to her and did the Rosary and did other things would be saved. And he died on the first Saturday of one of those days that our Lady had promised. Do you believe that the Pope wanted to die today?

KING: John Allen?

ALLEN: Well, you know, ultimately, the question of the moment of your death is something that none of us can control. But I do think there's something poetically appropriate, if you'd like, about that coincidence.

Moreover, we should mention that, in addition to this having a connection to the Fatima tradition, it's also the case that today is the feast day of divine mercy, that's a feast day that the Pope himself put on the liturgical calendar of the Catholic Church, which has its origins in a series of revelations given to a Polish nun named Faustina Kowalska that the Pope himself beatified and canonized.

And so there are a number of strange or, if you'd like, providential, perhaps, connections to the day and the time which John Paul passed from this Earth.

KING: So John, how many of the cardinals voting at the conclave will be cardinals he appointed?

ALLEN: All but three, Larry. There are 117 cardinals under 80 who are eligible to participate in the conclave. All but three of them have been named by this Pope. The three cardinals who are not are Cardinals Ratzinger, Baum, an American, and perhaps the best-named cardinal, Cardinal Sin of the Philippines.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: On that note, we'll take a break and come back with more calls for our outstanding panel. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: It's approaching early morning in the Vatican. They put their clocks ahead already. Don't forget, when we went on the air last night, it was 4:00 a.m. Tonight when we went on the air, it was 5:00 a.m. And don't forget, at 2:00 a.m., whatever your local time is in the United States, Canada, and the like, at 2:00 a.m. tonight, put the clock ahead an hour.

Starkville, Mississippi, hello.

CALLER: Hello, how are you today?

KING: Hi, fine.

CALLER: My question to the panel is, do you ever think that there will be a Pope that will be selected from the United States? And if not, why do you think...

KING: ... not?

Chris Dickey, do you think they'll ever be an American pope?

DICKEY: I think it'll be a long time. There seems to be a general consensus on a couple of points. One is that the United States is already so powerful there's a resistance to the idea of having an American pope just for that reason. And the other is, I think, that the American church has had quite a few problems and is often at odds with other elements in the Catholic Church.

So I think those two factors will probably prevent an American from becoming pope now, and probably for the foreseeable future.

KING: Father Morris, what about a black pope?

MORRIS: It's certainly possible. You think back to 455 years without any other pope besides an Italian pope, who would have thought Karol Wojtyla? Nobody. In fact, when his name was mentioned, there were silence, all of the journalists looking for the names on their lists. He wasn't one of the papabile.

So certainly there could be a black pope. If we had to say that likely, probably not. The African church is still a young church. Nevertheless, we can say with all confidence that the next pope is going to be a pope that's going to lead the church in this specific time, in this specific way that God wants.

KING: John Allen, a Latino pope?

ALLEN: Actually, I think there's a very strong argument for that, Larry. I mean, let's not forget that two-thirds of the Catholics in the world today live in the global south, almost half of them in Latin America alone. It would be a very forward-looking choice.

Moreover, the church in Latin America has been under siege of some extent in recent years with the growth of the so-called sects that are these very missionary, Evangelical and Pentecostal movements. They've been making significant inroads into what were once homogenous Catholic populations.

And I think some of the cardinals believe the election of a Latin American pope would be a real shot in the arm to the Latin American Catholic Church. And so it's a good bet.

KING: Tulsa, Oklahoma, hello.

CALLER: Yes, hello?

KING: Hi.

CALLER: Yes, I was just wondering, as a gay man, you know, my concern is that, why has the Catholic Church, and the Pope in particular, not given more tolerance to gay people and especially gay marriage?

KING: Jude Dougherty, why?

DOUGHERTY: Well, I think it has given quite a bit of tolerance. The church makes a distinction between sin and the sinner. There is no way the church can revoke the teaching of the Ten Commandments, the teaching of the tradition of the church, but it can be sympathetic to people who do not live up to the moral standards it sets forth.

The standards are there and will be perennial. And you can't take them back. But people are weak. And they deviate from a path. And this is true, not only of the homosexual community, but a whole spectrum of humanity can fail to observe, as it were, the law that has been set forth and set forth prominently in the Ten Commandments but in the perennial teaching of the church.

But again, the basic empathy for the sinner will always remain within the church. We have the sacrament of confession, where the penitent...

KING: There are those who believe that being gay is not a sin and not a choice.

DOUGHERTY: Well, some believe that purloining is not a sin. We have many chief executives on trial for this or for that, for doing what they thought was perfectly legitimate. But people are held to standards, whether they agree with them or not.

KING: We'll take a break and come back with our remaining moments with this panel. We'll have another special edition of LARRY KING LIVE tomorrow night with Colin Powell. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Christopher Dickey wanted to comment about the last question.

Chris?

DICKEY: No, we were just talking about it. I think that the question about the nature of gay lifestyles, gay inclination is a very interesting one for the church. And I think many people in the church think it's a little bit more complicated than just a question of sin and sinners.

And Father Jonathan and I were just talking about this. In fact, maybe he's the guy to ask about that question.

KING: All right.

Father?

MORRIS: Thanks for passing it off to me. I think an important distinction is between an inclination -- actually, the catechism makes a distinction, the inclination to a homosexual tendency and a gay lifestyle.

In other words, if I have a strong inclination in this way, that is not a sin. There's a lot of inclinations that we have that we don't out on. What the church says is, acting out on something that goes against not only church law, and church tradition, and church doctrine, but also human nature, that's the sin. The sinner always needs to be tolerated. But here I think the important distinction is between inclination, even a deeply seated inclination, and a gay lifestyle.

KING: Is this a dilemma, Rabbi, to you, as well?

SCHNEIER: I believe that this discussion is very inappropriate. I think we should be concentrating now on the memory of Pope John Paul. And if you want to devote, Larry, a special program on this very important issue, by all means let this panel gather and we'll discuss it.

KING: Well taken. Well taken, Rabbi.

Indianapolis, hello?

CALLER: Hello. I'm wondering if it's possible for this Pope to become a saint?

KING: How does that work, John Allen?

ALLEN: Well, of course, it's possible. I mean, the Catholic Church has a very well-established process for making saints. And nobody was better at that than John Paul II. He canonized some 476 saints, beatified almost 1,400 people, more not only than any previous pope but then all popes in history put together.

The way it would work is there's a mandatory waiting period of five years. And most of the new popes should choose to waive it -- John Paul did that for Mother Teresa -- then a process could open in the diocese of his birth which, of course, would be the archdiocese of Krakow. And there's a process to be followed that would then come to Rome. Ultimately, it would be up to a future pope to make that decision.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that a process will be launched. And you know, if I had five dollars, I would put it a positive outcome.

KING: Could the next pope make Jude Dougherty a saint?

DOUGHERTY: May I respond to that earlier question, Larry? I think John Paul II already a saint. The pope does not create saints or make saints. He recognizes sanctity in individuals and certifies, in effect, that they've led good lives that can be emulated. But sanctity is the vocation of all of us. Everyone who is within the faith believes that a proper life will lead to sanctity, that is to eternal life with God himself.

SCHNEIER: While Judaism does not have saints in the Jewish tradition, we do believe that there are 36 righteous individuals who keep this world alive. We just lost one, and that was Pope John Paul II. He was one, in my opinion, one of the 36 righteous that kept this world going.

KING: Is there a general confirmation of who the other 35 are?

SCHNEIER: You can name a few. It could be, by the way, a shoemaker. It could be a taxi driver. It does not have to be an individual of high-profile. But certainly people who reach out, just as Pope John Paul has reached out, was a trail-blazer, not only...

KING: Yes, you can say that. We're running out of time, Rabbi, but you can certainly say he fit that. A righteous man died today.

We thank Chris Dickey, Father Jonathan Morris, John Allen, Rabbi Arthur Schneier, and Jude Dougherty for joining us in this segment of LARRY KING LIVE. We'll be back again live tomorrow night. We'll be in New York. And one of our special guests will be former Secretary of State Colin Powell.

Right now, we continue our live coverage, going back to Rome and our own Anderson Cooper, who I believe should pop up on that screen right now. There he is.

Mr. Cooper, the ball is yours.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com