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CNN LIVE EVENT/SPECIAL

Pope John Paul II's Legacy

Aired April 3, 2005 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Paula Zahn in New York and Anderson Cooper here in Rome and we will be here for the next hour of coverage. But as I say, they are expecting some two million pilgrims to come here over the next several days and those great semi- circular colonnades of Bernini that lead from St. Peter's Basilica will be like arms outstretched embracing all those who will come to say their prayers and to say their last good-byes. And of course today, in a few hours from now begins the deadly serious business, the very earnest task of setting the stage, setting out the sequences of events for what happens over the next few days, choosing the funeral date and making the practical arrangements for the conclave to begin to elect a new pope. First though, we go to a report from CNN's Rome bureau chief Alessio Vinci on what people were thinking, the prayers they said and how they remembered the pope on this the second day since his passing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): During his papacy, John Paul II broke with tradition in so many ways and now for the first time in church history, pictures of a dead pope at a private viewing the day before public viewing at St. Peter's Basilica where the pontiff will be lying in state.

Throughout the morning Sunday, church officials, dignitaries and the Italian political elite pay their final respects in the Sala Clementina, a magnificently ornate room used by the pope to meet foreign visitors, the whole event beamed live for hours around the world by Vatican television. Later on Sunday, the Vatican released more video, this time of the pope's body in his private chapel, a room next to his study in the apostolic palace where he spent so many hours praying.

Among those mourning their lost friend, his closest aide of 40 years, Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz and the small group of nuns who served the pontiff throughout his papacy. It was from this chapel on Good Friday that the ailing pope, unable to participate in the way of the cross in the coliseum, watched the ceremony on a television set placed under the altar.

Earlier Sunday, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, who was at the pope's bedside when he died, celebrated a requiem mass, St. Peter's Square filled with tens of thousands, many devoted pilgrims.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought he was very, very good (INAUDIBLE) in what he tried to pass onto the world VINCI: But also tourists and ordinary people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's a sweet guy. I see him on TV. I see him just grab the kids. I mean he's a good guy, yeah.

VINCI: By church law, the pope's funeral must take place between the fourth and the sixth day after his death and by tradition, the burial takes place at St. Peter's Basilica.

VINCI (on-camera): But there is speculation that John Paul II may have asked to be buried in his native Poland. That would be another break with tradition, since he would be the first pope in centuries not to be buried here in Italy. Alessio Vinci, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And as I say, a lot of focus is now going to be on the next step, what will happen, what the exact sequence of events will be and it is said that the pope may have left a written statement about his particular wishes in that regard and as Alessio said, precisely where he wants to be buried. We go now to Anderson Cooper for more.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, thanks. We want to talk about that conclave, that mysterious process by which the next pope is selected. This is called the interregnum, the period between the popes. Cardinals from all around the world have already begun to arrive here in Rome. They will come in in the next few days and sometime in the next 14 to 20 days. The conclave will actually begin. It is a process almost as old as the Catholic Church itself and one that is still steeped in mystery and tradition.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): Today the leaders of the Catholic Church, its cardinals are remembering the pope they have lost. Most of them were chosen by John Paul II. Most of them share his view of the world and a view of him in it.

CARDINAL ROGER MICHAEL MAHONY, ARCHBISHOP OF LOS ANGELES: He was such a brilliant light for the world.

COOPER: But in a matter of days, their thoughts will turn to electing the pope who will lead them into the future.

CARDINAL JAMES FRANCIS STAFFORD, PRES., PONTIFICAL COUNCIL FOR THE LAITY: And that future is unknown to us at this point, but it has to be radically rooted in the magnificent teachings that the holy father has given to us.

COOPER: They'll go into what's called the conclave, from the Latin cum clavis (ph), with key. Canon law dictates that this official election process begin 15 to 20 days after the pope dies.

(on-camera): For many, the Vatican is a museum, but during this time, during this interregnum period, it is a living, breathing place. The cardinals from all around the world are coming here to Vatican City where just a few hundred feet from here, the Sistine Chapel they will meet behind closed doors. The doors will be locked, sealed with wax on either side and inside, under Michaelangelo's masterpiece, they will decide who is the next pope.

(voice-over): But first, the Sistine Chapel will be swept for bugs, recording devices and any other means of electronic surveillance, all in an effort to keep the proceedings completely secret. The foundation for today's conclave traditions date all the way back to 1274 after the church went without a pope for nearly three years. When Pope Gregory X was finally chosen, he decreed that in future elections, cardinals would be locked in the chapel until a new pope was named.

But this year, thanks to changes made by Pope John Paul II, the cardinals will be able to retire each night in comfort. That's because, for the first time in history, they'll be permitted to leave the chapel so they can sleep in a nearby dormitory, known as Casa Santa Marta, which will also be swept for bugs.

During the daytime, the cardinals will vote twice in the morning and twice in the afternoon, handwriting their choice for pope on ballots inscribed with the words electa ensumum pontificum (ph), I elect as supreme pontiff. Between the votes, they'll be discussions, genteel politicking.

CARDINAL THEODORE E. McCARRICK, ARCHBISHOP OF WASHINGTON: I can't do nuances in Italian and sometimes nuances are the most important things in situations like this, so I would hope that I could speak English or Spanish. I can do nuances in Spanish, but we'll see.

COOPER: If no candidate receives two thirds of the vote, the ballots and tally sheets will be burned in a little stove just off the Sistine Chapel, sending black smoke up a 60-foot pipe. A plume of black smoke means who are still without a pope.

But when a candidate does receive two thirds of the vote, chemicals will be added to the burning ballots to make the smoke appear white and signal that a new pontiff has been chosen.

The new pope will be asked if he accepts his appointment and led into a small room just off the Sistine Chapel, called the chapel of tears, to reflect the heavy burden the pope will carry. Inside he'll find papal robes in small, medium and large. Once dressed, the new pope will greet the cardinals and walk toward this balcony facing St. Peter's Square. Leading him will be the cardinal deacon, whose job it is to announce to the anxious crowd habemus papam, we have a pope.

Then the new pontiff will great the faithful and give his first blessing to the city of Rome and the rest of the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: And just a little past 5:00 a.m. here in Rome, you're looking at a live picture of Casa Santa Marta. That is where the cardinals, once the conclave has actually begun, that's the dormitory like building where they will actually sleep in between being sequestered in the Sistine Chapel while the conclave is under way. Let's go back to New York and Paula Zahn.

PAULA ZAHN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And as you might expect Anderson, the guessing game is already on. There are Web sites that have sprung up taking bets on who the next pope might be. When we come back, we're going to take a look at who is actually on the short list, who are the long shots. That's coming up after this break, but first, a moment of reflection from Senator Ted Kennedy of Massachusetts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D) MASS: Through his incredible travels around the world, he was really a messenger of hope and a messenger of faith, which will long be remembered and will have a permanent place in the hearts and souls of the people whose lives he's touched.

He's also an inspirational figure in resisting communism and being a forceful spokesman about that in his early life and also at the time of his papacy. So this is an extraordinary individual who uplifted the world in very many important ways.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: Our special coverage of the pope continues and in just a moment, the ancient and modern traditions surrounding the choosing of a new pope. First though at 11 minutes past the hour, time to go back to Carol Lin in Atlanta with the other headlines of the day. Hi again.

CAROL LIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi there Paula. Well, a stage is being set for a showdown over John Bolton's nomination as U.S. ambassador to the U.N. Sixty six people, including former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger signed a letter today endorsing Bolton. Now last week, a group of 62 people urged senators to reject his nomination. Hearings are set to begin on Thursday.

And Syria's president tells a U.N. envoy he will complete his troop withdrawal from Lebanon by the end of the month. The promise was made today in Damascus. The Syrians say they have already withdrawn 4,000 soldiers from Lebanon in the last several weeks.

And a breakthrough in Iraq today, where the transitional parliament elected a speaker and two deputy speakers. The speaker is Sunni and the deputies are Kurdish and Shia politicians. The vote clears the way for the assembly to name a new president and then the president can name a prime minister allowing the rest of the government to be nominated.

And the royal wedding is still on. Prince Charles' office says his wedding to Camilla Parker-Bowles will go ahead Friday as planned, even if it clashes with the funeral of Pope John Paul II. Now so far, the Vatican says the pope's funeral might be any time from Wednesday to Friday.

And those are the headlines Paula. Back to you in New York.

ZAHN: You can just see those morning editorials tomorrow in the London newspapers, huh.

LIN: Well, they've been together for 35 years Paula, I guess they've waited a long time.

ZAHN: Exactly. Thanks Carol. In just about two weeks, what may be the oldest continuing political process on earth will get underway at St. Peter's and though it's done behind closed doors and not on the streets of New Hampshire, choosing a pope, like picking a president, involves coalition building, arm twisting and at the very end of the day, a vote. And in any collection of candidates, there are dark horses and front runners.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Cardinal Francis Arinze, Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, these three names are unfamiliar, but Vatican watchers say they are among the front runners to be the next pope. The college of cardinals shocked the world in 1978 when they chose a Polish cardinal, making Pope John Paul II the first non- Italian pope in more than 450 years. That shift, away from the Italian domination in the Catholic Church, has continued over the past 26 years.

Today, the church's strongest growth is in third world countries. More than half the world's Catholics live in Asia, Africa, Latin and South America and many say it's only a matter of time before a pope comes from one of these regions. That could help the chances of Cardinal Arinze, the Vatican's fourth ranking prelate who is from Nigeria. If elected, he would be only the second African to head the church. Like John Paul II, Arinze is a staunch conservative. He's also one of the pope's closest advisors.

Among Latin American cardinals, Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras is considered a rising star. Cardinal Rodriguez is outspoken on social justice. On church issues, he's avoided dramatic calls for reform. Some say, he shares the religious conservatism and social activism that attracted electors to Pope John Paul II.

But some Vatican watchers say age may prove to be a factor, that an older cardinal has the best chance to become the next pope. Many believe the current papacy has lasted too long and that the next pontiff will be a transition pope. That (INAUDIBLE) increases the prospects for Cardinal Ratzinger of Germany. He'll turn 78 in mid- April. As head of the church's congregation for the doctrine of the faith, he has been a strong enforcer of the pope's conservative positions on church doctrine.

Another German, who's often clashed with Ratzinger is Cardinal Walther Casper. He's considered popular among European reformers and heads the Vatican's office of Christian unity and its office for relations with Jews. But some say he may be too liberal. Cardinal Casper has said that divorced Catholics who remarry outside the church should be allowed to receive communion.

A long-time contender is Cardinal Godfried Danneels of Brussels. He's well known in political and diplomatic circles and is considered more moderate than most of the other cardinals, even suggesting that it would better for future popes to retire rather than die in office.

Others say there's a powerful sentiment to return to traditions and elect an Italian, which would make Cardinal Tettamanzi, a favorite. Known for his diplomatic skills, Cardinal Tettamanzi, the archbishop of Milan, is also close to Opus Dei, the ultra-conservative Catholic group. As for names that won't appear on the short list of contenders, just about any American cardinal. The main reason is the United States military and economic strength. It wouldn't be helpful for the church to appear to side with the world's only super power.

Ultimately, the person who may have the most influence on who becomes the next pope is John Paul II. He was responsible for appointing all of the 117 cardinals eligible to vote, making it very likely that the next pope will share Pope John Paul II's conservative stances on issues like abortion and the role of women in the church.

But all this speculation about front runners is just speculation. There's a saying in Rome, to enter the conclave believing one will become pope is a sure way to exit it a cardinal.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Something to keep someone humble there. Anderson, I was mentioning to you a little bit earlier on, we are already seeing betting going on and the speculation, a couple of Web sites encouraging people to make their bets. I don't know if they're doing that in Rome yet, but this has been going on for over 24 hours here now back in the states.

COOPER: That's certainly a very American thing I think. I don't think they're doing that here. I think a lot of people are talking about it perhaps, but (INAUDIBLE) betting on the Web site.

DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think they've had too much experience with these things. They know better.

COOPER: It's really impossible to predict.

GALLAGHER: It is. As Karol Wojtyla was not predicted in any of the betting games. So I don't think that we can even do that this time around, even with all of the factors that we can factor in and think about. It's still up on the air.

COOPER: Technically today, the cardinals lost their job.

GALLAGHER: Yes. They lost their jobs. The top (INAUDIBLE) cardinals, all the under secretaries, all the people that work in the Vatican still continue because of course they have to prepare for the next papacy. But the cardinals lost their jobs because the Vatican stops effectively right now and of course it gives them the opportunity to prepare for the conclave.

COOPER: In reality, I mean this process of selecting a new pope really has already begun. Popes from all around the world are converging here on Vatican City. There are going to be 117 popes who are eligible to select the next pope, because you have to be under the age of 80. What goes into this selection? I mean how important is the age of the candidate?

GALLAGHER: Well, you see, this is the problem with these factors. I mean age could be important, but then maybe there's an outstanding candidate who's younger and they're going to choose him. We can say, OK, they might choose somebody who's a little bit older so that they'll have a transition papacy, because this papacy has been so long, they might want a shorter papacy just to have time to absorb all these things that have happened under this one. We could say, well, it might come from - he might come from Europe. He might come from South America.

COOPER: ...because there was a bloc, certainly here in Rome, who would like to see an Italian pope regain the papacy. Pope John Paul of course was from Poland.

GALLAGHER: Well, yes, I mean, I'll tell you, there was already a cardinal who came out with an indiscretion saying that, Cardinal Glenn (ph), but he's from Poland. So it gives you an idea that - and it was already said beforehand that probably some of the Europeans want to keep the papacy at least in Europe, if not Italy.

COOPER: But of course there are a number of strong candidates from Latin America, even a strong candidate from Africa, from Nigeria.

GALLAGHER: But the problem with this is they're all strong candidates. They all have great attributes. They're all men and obvious great experience pastorally and here at the Vatican. So that's why it makes it so difficult this choice and that's why the cardinals I think try not to decide. In fact they say that in the last conclave, what they're trying to do is let the first ballot - you can name whoever you want and then when the results come out and the cardinals realize, uh, oh, we have to come to a two thirds majority, we've got 100 names here, then they understand how it works because a lot of these cardinals have never been in a conclave.

COOPER: Whoever is selected though, I mean the papacy can never go back really to the way it was of someone who is simply a CEO or an administrator who stays here in the Vatican. I mean Pope John Paul II has raised the bar and you really have to be a charismatic figure in today's day and age.

GALLAGHER: Well, yes and no, because I think that when a cardinal is elected pope, he comes into that job. I mean Karol Wojtyla wasn't John Paul II when he was elected.

COOPER: Just like they say about American presidents, they come into the office.

GALLAGHER: So that's why it's hard to look at a cardinal as he is now and say what sort of pope he will be.

COOPER: My new favorite word is...

GALLAGHER: Papabile.

COOPER: Papabile, which means papable, someone who could be capable of being pope, just like people say oh yeah, that guy's presidential.

GALLAGHER: Papabile, there's no real English translation, maybe papable, but it comes from pappa because the Italians call the pope the pappa.

COOPER: Papabile, all right. Delia Gallagher, Vatican analyst, thanks very much. When we come back, we're going to take a look at really the remarkable relationship between this pope, Pope John Paul II and the United States. He visited America seven times. The only country he visited more often was his home country of Poland. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: By this time next week, the remembrance of the pope will start giving way to anticipation as the world awaits the selection of a new pope. For now though, it is remembrance in large ways and small that govern the day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN (voice-over): On this Sunday in America in very diverse settings, the loss of the peoples' pope was seen, heard and felt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very sad but very - knowing he's at peace with the Lord is more than I can say. He deserves to be there, but it's a loss.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was the most important person for all Polish people, for the Polish community really. He was our lord. I feel like my father died. He was my, like family.

ZAHN: There were outward ceremonial symbols and internal personal emotion. In Boston yesterday, Archbishop Sean O'Malley spoke from his heart.

ARCHBISHOP SEAN O'MALLEY, BOSTON ARCHDIOCESE: Well, this afternoon, I was celebrating mass in Spanish for a group of young people at Our Lady of Lourdes and when I got to point of the canon where we pray for the pope and there's no pope, I kind of stopped and it was the feeling of being an orphan.

ZAHN: In Washington, the John Paul II cultural center, opened its doors to those who wanted to pay their respects.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: On behalf of all of us for the holy father who was a man of peace, a man of compassion, a man who has had an enormous impact on the world.

ZAHN: In a nation that so often struggles over major controversial issues, today Catholics and non-Catholics alike could agree that the world has lost an extraordinary man.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And right now we head back to Rome, where Christiane Amanpour is standing by. Christiane.

AMANPOUR: Well, Paula, you know what it's like in the United States, amongst the Polish American community. Poles are very proud and they have a very special link of course with Pope John Paul II, in Chicago, Detroit, in Green Point Brooklyn, all over the U.S. So too, does CNN's Susan Lisovicz. She is of Polish origin and upon the death of the pope, she returned to a place that is special.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is one of a handful of masses celebrated in Polish every weekend in Wallington, New Jersey. But these are not ordinary times for the faithful here. Eighty percent of the town's 15,000 residents are of Polish descent. Pope John Paul II is considered a blood brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a personal identification with the holy father. He's a son of pride for us. He's not only our spiritual leader, but he also brought Poland out of obscurity. As Americans of Polish descent, he gave us a sense of ourselves, this new man in Rome.

LISOVICZ: Anje Calida (ph) says he sent his famous kielbasa to the Polish pontiff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) kielbasa's because he likes it.

LISOVICZ: Margaret Maherchek (ph) has led pilgrimages to the Vatican and is one of many people here who've had a private papal audience.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's kind of like a magic. You're so close to him and you try to tell him something and you forget. You don't know what you want to tell him.

LISOVICZ: Polish pride and Catholicism are inseparable in Wallington. I know this firsthand because this is my hometown where I attended school, took Polish classes and attended mass. The folks here are still talking about the day a Polish cardinal was elected pope.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I remember people on the sidewalks, in the streets, just coming up to each other, hugging each other, saying have you heard? Isn't it amazing? Isn't it wonderful? But after that day, it turned out that he was even more wonderful than we could have even imagined on that day.

LISOVICZ: Because Pope John Paul II returned to Poland to challenge the communist regime. Poland's independence was the beginning of the collapse of the Soviet Union. The major of Wallington says John Paul II ranks with the great revolutionary war hero, General Casimir Pulaski.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Freedom is the key to the both of them. Pulaski came to fight for freedom and the pope saw freedom come to his native country, Poland, and he was instrumental in doing that.

LISOVICZ: Many of Wallington's residents were able to leave Poland after the fall of communism. Pope John Paul II is not only their spiritual leader, but their hero. Susan Lisovicz, CNN, Wallington, New Jersey.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And in Poland itself, hundreds of thousands of people came out today. It was Sunday of course, the day after the pope died and in the main square in Warsaw where he said mass early in one of his visits, there was a huge turnout. We'll be right back after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: We're showing you what Rome looks like at 5:30 in the morning, St. Peter's Square all but deserted at this hour. Things will change though in an hour or two and we expect maybe to get some information about - from the Vatican about potential funeral arrangements.

The legacies of those positions of power, great power, often very complicated. It's fair to say that Pope John Paul II has had his critics, many of them from actually within the Catholic Church. Producer and director Helen Whitney explored the contradictions with the papacy of John Paul in a documentary for FRONTLINE, John Paul II, the millennial pope. We're going to speak with Ms. Whitney in just a moment. But first, a bit of her film.

(FRONTLINE VIDEO)

ZAHN: And producer and director of this documentary, Helen Whitney joins us now from San Francisco. Good of you to join us Helen. Is it possible to ever square any of these contradictions you touched upon in your film?

HELEN WHITNEY, PRODUCER, JOHN PAUL II: THE MILLENNIAL POPE: No and I don't think one should. The man is so large and that he really - he just, he can't be (INAUDIBLE) who see him as God-like or the critics who challenge him. He's just simply - he just springs out and away from all of our categories and he is all these things and more actually. I mean there are some contradictions that weren't even mentioned in my piece and I think they're in some ways at the heart of his spirituality.

This man is a mystic, a fiery mystic at his core. He models are passionate visionaries like St. John of the Cross and the stigmatic (INAUDIBLE) and he's also a man who's sort of dedicated to sort of a rational belief. St. Thomas and he and scientific inquiry and both of those can't be squared as well and I think they only sort of deepen the man, deepen his faith that they coexist.

ZAHN: Do you subscribe to the view that perhaps this was a pope that was far more successful outside of his church than he was inside wit the overt criticism that he never did much to tame the bureaucracy of the Vatican?

WHITNEY: That is perhaps true, because I think that above all, I think this man was an extraordinary evangelist whose central sort of mission was to really bring faith (ph), which is the central agenda for him, fate, how do we believe, given what we know in this terrible century as he would put it and so he took that on the road so to speak. And people who - I've look over so much footage in the making of this film - I have so much footage of this man traveling all over the world and one person very close to him said to me, look at him closely.

It's almost as if he is a guard, a swimming guard, just throwing a preserver to drowning people, because I think one thing that just drove him was this fear that he had that we had lost touch with the transcendent. So I think his great success was sort of going out and giving people Pentecostal moments, visceral experience of faith. He used to say that his close friend Lorenzo Albacete, no one really reads dead man's, a dead pope's encyclicals. You really have to go out and sort of meet and be with people and bear witness to the faith that he obviously had.

ZAHN: It's interesting because Monsignor Albacete was our guest earlier this evening and he said and maybe taunt's not the right word, but he intentionally almost used these contradictions to make us accept the concept of dualism, duality.

WHITNEY: It's an interesting - that's an interesting idea.

ZAHN: That makes sense to you.

WHITNEY: Yeah, it does actually.

ZAHN: So if - what you view as one of his greatest accomplishments is his ability to touch in a very personal way the people he came into contact with. Do you see that as a function of the tremendous suffering that he endured as a child, losing his mother at a young age and then his brother and then his father, 25 percent of the town where he grew up with was Jewish, knowing that many of those people were exterminated.

WHITNEY: I think it's simple to understanding him and I think it's the defining theme of his papacy, which is his belief in redemptive suffering, not just suffering, but that it can redeem and that all those sufferings of Poland, which are fused in some way with his own sufferings of loss of all the people closest to him. I mean there was a way in which he was intent on turning as Poland has as well, suffering into gain, finding meaning for it. And I think really also to the core of this man, I think he believes that without suffering, we're somewhat superficial and to watch this man with people who are sick or marginalized or oppressed. I mean it's almost like a moment to him. He just focuses and clarifies and looks at them and is with them, not in a high low (ph) way but deeply connected to them.

ZAHN: Through his physical battle over the last couple years, he taught a lot about having courage and strength. Helen Whitney, what a fascinating look at this papacy. Thank you for joining us tonight to talk a little bit more about your documentary.

WHITNEY: Thank you.

ZAHN: And just ahead on this special edition of NEWSNIGHT, John Paul's own words as read by an American known for his oratory. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: In a moment, the pope as a paradox, a modern traditionalist. First 15 minutes before the hour, Carol, isn't it amazing? I can tell time at this hour? Last time I had it 45 minutes before the hour.

LIN: Paula, you have done a terrific job. I know it's really tough to go for hours on end but it's such a compelling story.

ZAHN: Oh, it's an important story and it's an honor to be a part of all this.

LIN: Absolutely. We've been covering some other news for you also here from the world headquarters. Out of Iraq, two American troops died in combat there this weekend. A soldier was killed this morning by a roadside bomb north of Baghdad. Yesterday, a Marine was killed in an explosion in Al Anbar province, a stronghold of the anti-U.S. insurgency.

And one person is dead after a man with a sword stormed into a church in Germany. Police say today's attack in Stuttgart left two others seriously injured. Police subdued the man with pepper spray and arrested him. The man's girlfriend was in the church, but was not hurt. She had recently rejected his marriage proposal.

And the ousted president of the former Soviet republic of Kyrgyzstan will step down tomorrow. That is according to an official in the country's embassy in Moscow, where the president fled after last month's popular uprising. The one-day revolution was triggered by parliamentary elections that many said were rigged.

And baseball is suspending outfield Alex Sanchez, 10 days for violating its new drug policy. He is the first player publicly identified as breaking those rules. Sanchez says he's going to fight the suspension because he says he's never taken steroids. Tampa Bay signed him after the Detroit Tigers released him last month. Paula, that suspension could cost him as much as $33,000.

ZAHN: That will teach somebody a lesson, huh.

LIN: Yes, that could hurt

ZAHN: Carol Lin, thanks. I'm just kind of disappointed you didn't give me the Yankee score since we missed that season opening game tonight, but maybe next go around.

As we have been reporting, in just a few days, leaders from around the world will be making their way to Rome. They will pay their respects and do all the countless things the duty and protocol demand. In a word, they will attend. Others will grieve. Many are already there. Here's Sara Dorsey.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SARA DORSEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Psalm 66, make a joyful noise unto the Lord, a biblical mission each Sunday for worshippers at New Life AME Zion Church in College Park, Georgia.

Most here have never attended a Catholic mass, but that doesn't lessen the impact of losing a spiritual leader.

REV. CARLTON L. BROWN, PASTOR: There has been a great loss, because on yesterday, Pope John Paul II died. Though we are not Catholic, we are part of the kingdom of God and any loss in the kingdom of God is a loss to all who are part of the body.

DORSEY: All Christians this congregation will tell you, with the same goal. But the Catholic Church is now in crossroads. Many here note there was talk that an African cardinal could ascend to the papacy.

BROWN: I think that would be a fascinating thing to have a pope from Africa, simply because for so long, those persons from Africa were not seen to be included in the mainstream of Catholicism, yet there are so many.

DORSEY: But some are skeptical.

ANN McPHERSON, PARISHIONER: I think a lot of people will probably need to get used to the idea because unfortunately, everyone is not as color blind as we would want them to be.

VIVIAN DAVIS, PARISHIONER: I thought it was (INAUDIBLE) exciting and it's going to be interesting to see just who they choose.

DORSEY: A choice that could take weeks, affect billions and this congregation says would be joyous news. Sara Dorsey, CNN, College Park, Georgia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: Says it all. We're going to wrap things up in a moment, some perspective from Rome. Right out of the break, we leave you with this picture from St. Peter's Square, once again all but deserted at almost 6:00 in the morning there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ZAHN: And as we move up to the top of the hour, I wanted to check in one more time with my colleagues, Anderson Cooper and Christiane Amanpour, both of whom are in the Rome at this what, 6:00 a.m. local time there almost. Anderson.

COOPER: Yes, it is very early in the morning here. Dawn has not yet broken. We are anticipating the sun coming up probably in about 45 minutes or so. And in St. Peter's Square right now as there have been really for these last several hours, there's a very small group of people, mourners really, huddled around some flames, just sitting, talking, praying, still wanting to maintain a presence in St. Peter's Square, still wanting to be close to John Paul II who lays in state and will continue to and in the next several days, as Christiane said earlier, we are anticipating some two million mourners to come and file past the pope and get one last glimpse at the pontiff. Christiane.

AMANPOUR: That's exactly right and in three hours from now, the congregation of cardinals gets together to start the very serious business of laying out the groundwork for the next few days, figuring out exactly what date the pope's funeral will be on and then arranging all the administrative preparations for the conclave of cardinals to elect a new pope and we hope to hear that news in terms of when the funeral will be, what the pope's special instructions were about his own burial. We hope to hear that either today or tomorrow.

ZAHN: And we will be looking forward to more of both of your reports, Christiane Amanpour, Anderson Cooper, joining us from Rome tonight where they will be reporting from all week long. Thanks so much.

So many times this week, we have heard Pope John Paul II called a great communicator. We leave you now with some of John Paul's most memorable phrases from his sermons read by former New York Governor Mario Cuomo.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIO CUOMO, FORMER NY GOVERNOR: In God's plan, nothing happens by chance.

Just as grace builds on nature and brings it to fulfillment, so faith builds upon and perfects reason.

There is no true freedom where life is not welcome and loved and there is not fullness of life except in freedom.

Authentic love is not a vague sentiment or a blind passion. It is an inner attitude that involves the whole human being. Love in a word, is the gift of self.

The worst prison would be a closed heart.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZAHN: And that wraps it up for all of us here this evening. Thank you so much for being with us tonight. We hope you will stay tuned to CNN. We will be on the air throughout the day, bringing you up to date on maybe some of the decisions made by the cardinals. They are expected, as Christiane mentioned, to meet just about three hours from now. We are hoping maybe to get some idea of when Pope John Paul's funeral might take place this week.

Once again in the meantime, please stay tuned to CNN for all the day's news. We leave you now. Thanks again for joining us tonight.

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