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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Thousands of Mourners Pay Respects to Pope; Minuteman Project Highlights Problems with US Border Policy; Bush Meets with Ukrainian President
Aired April 04, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, remembering Pope John Paul II. The pope's body lies in state. Tens of thousands of people are paying their last respects. We'll have a live report from Vatican City.
Also tonight, the Minuteman Project, this country's largest neighborhood watch project. We'll have extensive coverage of the first weekend of border patrols in Arizona. My guests include a congressman who strongly supports those volunteers and two outspoken critics who say those volunteers are really vigilantes.
And the high cost of free trade. A new wave of Chinese textile imports to this country is flooding our markets. Two hundred American textile workers lose their jobs each and every day. Our textile industry is simply being destroyed. And the Bush administration's response: it has now put the issue in front of a Commerce Department committee.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Two days after the pope died his body is tonight lying in state in St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City. Thousands of people are filing past his body, paying their last respects. As many as two million people are expected to view his body before the pope's funeral this coming Friday.
Jim Bittermann has the report from Vatican City -- Jim.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, in fact there are thousands more waiting to see his body this evening. This is rather an incredible scene on what -- in a day that's been filled with incredible scenes.
There are tens of thousands of people still waiting to see the pope's body. The Vatican says the doors will stay open here until 2 a.m. in the morning, and they will then close down for about three hours because they have to do some cleaning and some technical work to get things ready for that Friday funeral.
But people are still pouring in here. And just to give you an idea, back behind the camera, there's about 500 yards of people waiting in line. And as you look across St. Peter's Square, you can see the long line for maybe 300 yards across St. Peter's Square. And then once you get into St. Peter's Basilica it's another perhaps 200 yards to the pope's body itself.
So all total you're talking about probably more than a half mile of people who are stacked 20 or 30 across waiting to see the pope's body. Obviously, they're not going to -- a lot of them are not going to get a chance to do that tonight. They'll probably be told in just a few minutes now to be -- to come back tomorrow. At least the ones at the end of the line. And they all have to just wait for another day.
We expected the viewing is now going to be -- going to be continued throughout the evenings and nights all the rest of the week until the funeral.
Now, other things that happened today, the pope's body was moved from the Clementina Sala, which is the hall where the pope himself received so many dignitaries, presidents and diplomats, moved from there in a procession on the shoulders of 12 pallbearers. A procession that included many of the cardinals that are gathered -- gathering, I should say, because they're starting to gather here for the conclave to choose the next pope -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jim Bittermann from Vatican City. Thank you, Jim.
Father John Paris of Boston College will be joining us here later in the broadcast to discuss the issues that now face the Catholic Church, what is next for the papacy, the likely candidates to succeed Pope John Paul II, and the issues, of course, facing American Catholics and a billion Catholics all around the world.
President Bush and the first lady will lead the U.S. delegation, of course, at the pope's funeral Friday. President Bush made that announcement during a visit to the White House by the newly elected president of Ukraine.
White House correspondent Dana Bash reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president says he looks forward to leading the U.S. delegation to the pope's funeral, noting his lesson and legacy.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: One man can make a difference in people's lives. He's a courageous person, he's a moral person. He was a godly person.
BASH: Mr. Bush was the last of five presidents to know John Paul II.
BUSH: I can remember him taking us out on the balcony of this fabulous palace over looking the magnificent lake and talking about his views of the world. It was a moment I'll never forget during my presidency.
This is so beautiful, your holiness. BASH: There the pope warned the president he had a moral duty to ban stem cell research, not just limit it. It was Mr. Bush's first taste of John Paul II's penchant for blunt talk with American presidents.
Another, his staunch opposition to the defining event of the Bush presidency: the Iraq war, a controversial subject at their last Vatican meeting.
BUSH: He was a man of peace and he didn't like -- he didn't like war. And I fully understood that. And I appreciated the conversations I had with the Holy Father on the subject.
BASH: It's the peaceful transition to democracy from communism the pope is being remembered for helping start, especially in his native Eastern Europe, the kind led by the president's guest, Ukrainian president Viktor Yushchenko, invited to highlight what Mr. Bush sees as a major gain for democracy and freedom.
But Mr. Yushchenko made clear to the president listening to the will of his people means pulling Ukraine's 1,600-plus troops out of Iraq.
BUSH: He's fulfilling a campaign pledge. I fully understand that. But he also has said that he's going to cooperate with -- with the coalition.
BASH: The high profile support for Yushchenko is a strain on U.S.-Russia relations. The president pointed out the two also discussed the delicate and evolving political climates in other former Soviet republics that have Moscow wary.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And the timing was oddly appropriate, the Yushchenko visit putting a spotlight on the dramatic political evolution in Eastern Europe that many believe occurred at least in part because of John Paul II -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you. And because of the pope's funeral this week, Dana, a lot of the nation's business has been simply postponed until next week. Is that correct?
BASH: Well, the president is shifting his schedule, obviously, a bit. At the end of the week, he was going to go to Fort Hood. That has been postponed. But he is going to keep a very important meeting next week and that is a meeting at his ranch at Crawford, Texas, with the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much. Dana Bash from the White House.
Turning now to another critically important national issue, and that's the issue of illegal immigration, an issue that President Bush has done little to address so far in this, his second term. Hundreds of volunteers, however, have taken action on their own along the most porous stretch of our border with Mexico. This weekend, supporters of the Minuteman Project helped apprehend illegal immigrants in Arizona, as they intended to do. But contrary to expectations of some critics, there was no violence at all.
Casey Wian reports from the border town of Naco, Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Border patrol are out there, ready and waiting for us.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: After six months of planning, it's finally time for the Minutemen to patrol the border. Project organizer Chris Simcox speaks to volunteers before they head out to their posts for the first time.
CHRIS SIMCOX, MINUTEMAN PROJECT: The world will see finally who we really are. And they'll stop branding us with all of these negative labels.
WIAN: As they move into position the Minutemen are under instructions to report any illegal aliens they see to the border patrol.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to call border patrol right away and just try to assist them in the best way I can. Homeland security begins right here at this border.
WIAN: Though many are armed, they say they won't detain anyone.
(on camera) This is an example of some of the desert terrain they will be patrolling, miles and miles of border, unguarded except for a barbed wire fence.
And in many places along the border that fence is little more than an inconvenience. Sneaking into the United States is as easy as this.
(voice-over) And that's what brings the Minutemen here. On day two, these volunteers found five illegal aliens hiding under a cement culvert three miles from the border. They called the border patrol and began to shoot this video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While I was doing this one guy left the culvert, right here. Took off back toward the mountains. He wasn't gone for very long. And here he comes back.
WIAN: The border patrol arrived and took the five men away. It's exactly how the Minuteman Project is intended to work.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have so many illegals at home and in Georgia that I'm just glad to see that there's five less that aren't going to make it into the interior of the country. WIAN: The Minuteman say they helped apprehend more than 100 illegal aliens in two days, welcome news for this local family, who often encounter alien and drug smugglers near their home.
(on camera) Do you support the Minutemen?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You bet I do. I'm glad they're here. It's about time.
WIAN: Although there were fears of violent confrontations between Minutemen, illegal aliens, smugglers, even the Mexican law enforcement officers who watch from across the border, the weekend was peaceful.
SIMCOX: ACLU observers, great, now we know everyone's rights will be protected, including ours.
SHERIFF LARRY DEVER, COCHISE COUNTY, ARIZONA: I think people just in general are wanting this to be a positive atmosphere and environment so that they're not reflected badly upon the message that they're trying to deliver.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: if the message is sent to the White House all well and good. Those are our elected representatives, and they need to understand we're serious about this issue, and we want it taken care of.
WIAN: Or they will help take care of it themselves. Though many are now returning home, others will stay throughout the month, helping to secure this stretch of the southern border.
Casey Wian, CNN, Naco, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The Minuteman Project is what some call this country's biggest neighborhood watch project ever. Many people came to the border to demonstrate their support for the Minutemen volunteers and their mission.
But there was also a number of protesters, who declared that some of the volunteers are, quote, "domestic terrorists."
Bill Tucker reports from the border.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They gathered along the southern border of Arizona at the Border Patrol stations of Naco and Douglas, people from California, Oregon, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Texas, Massachusetts, as many as 19 different states. And, yes, there were locals there, too.
I could stand on my back porch, use my binoculars, pick up my phone, call in to Border Patrol, and they come pick them up. TUCKER: The demonstrations were orderly, friendly, with a great deal of support shown for the Border Patrol, dispelling concerns that the demonstrations would be violent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're the typical minute person. This is what minute people look like.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, average Americans. And all ages. We're the largest group of neighborhood watch you will ever see.
CROWD: Close our borders, Bush! Close our borders, Bush!
TUCKER: There was anger, most of it directed at President Bush.
We are very upset that we voted for President Bush and that he has stabbed the American people in the back by allowing these open borders.
TUCKER: And not everyone was pleased with the idea of the minutemen patrols.
ARMANDO NAVARRO, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA RIVERSIDE: To us, this project is racist in nature. It's infiltrated by a bunch of domestic terrorists.
TUCKER: There were moments of confrontation. This one ended calmly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're working with our president. We'll see what we can do. Would you like a drink?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will take your drink.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
TUCKER: And many other minutemen supporters were not without sympathy for the plight of the people coming across the border illegally.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I have no quarrel with the people, and I -- in a way I feel sorry for them. I really do, because they need to work. It's a better life here.
We have a good life. And I don't blame them for wanting to come over. But do it legally.
TUCKER: And that's the point of the demonstrations and the civilian border patrol, says the co-founder of the Minuteman Project. That, and to focus attention on the problem of illegal migration.
JAMES GILCHRIST, MINUTEMAN PROJECT FOUNDER: There is a major, major problem in this country. And it will begin with Mexico changing its way. There's something seriously wrong with Mexico when 50 percent of its population want to leave that country.
(END VIDEOTAPE) TUCKER: Now, U.S. Border Patrol does not officially support the Minuteman Project, Lou. They're concerned about civilians placing themselves in harm's way. But they are relieved that at least for now the project has gotten off to a nonviolent beginning -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill Tucker, there were quite a few interesting signs in that report. Amongst them, the "Osama bin Laden loves open borders"; "Look behind that Bush, there's a fox."
You know, I can't help but be struck by the fact that, as we do every day, we report on what the elites are saying and in some cases actually doing in this country, that there seems to be a lot of common sense masked along the Arizona-Mexico border these days.
TUCKER: Delivered in a plain, straightforward style, Lou. Not hard to understand.
DOBBS: Truth usually isn't. Bill Tucker, thank you very much.
The U.S. embassy in Mexico issued its own statement about the Minuteman Project. The U.S. embassy statement reads, "If any members of these civilian groups" -- referring to the minutemen -- "violate any U.S. law, they will face criminal prosecution." But amazingly, no mention of what the consequences would be for Mexican citizens breaking U.S. law by entering this country illegally.
Naturally, we were curious about that omission. And we called the U.S. embassy in Mexico city. They said their embassy statement was complete, and that if we had any questions about the penalties for illegal entry into this country, we should speak with the U.S. Border Patrol's national spokesman in Washington.
Later in the broadcast, I'll be talking with a leading congressman who says the minutemen volunteers are nothing less but American heroes. I will also be talking with two outspoken critics of the Minuteman Project who say the minutemen are simply vigilantes.
Up next here, the high cost of free trade. The huge price paid by American textile workers as cheap Chinese exports are flooding into the country.
In "Broken Borders," criminal illegal aliens swamping state and local prisons. But the federal government simply will not help.
Those stories are next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we've reported extensively here, the flood of cheap Chinese imports into this country has devastated the American textile industry. Since quotas limiting Chinese exports to this country expired, tens of thousands of American jobs have also expired. Now, after the damage has been done, the U.S. government has decided to put before a committee a question as to whether or not those imports are a threat to a critical American industry.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the first three months of this year, China has clobbered the U.S. textile market. Imports of Chinese cotton trousers jumped more than 1,500 percent. Cotton shirts more than 1,300 percent.
In response, the U.S. Commerce Department is finally opening up an investigation to decide whether to reimpose quotas on cotton knit shirts and blouse, trousers and underwear. The industry is happy but not jumping for joy.
AUGGIE TANTILLO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMTAC: We do need to realize that that's all it is, is a first step. The government would need to follow up these initiations of investigation with a quick decision to place quotas on China, and they would also need to cover a lot more categories than what was announced this afternoon.
SYLVESTER: Don't expect quick action. The self-initiated review begins a 30-day public comment period. Then up to 60 days later, the government will decide to impose safeguards and then must give China notice and begin negotiations. But each day of delay means more American jobs in jeopardy.
MARK LEVINSON, UNITE HERE: In the first 90 days of this year, over 17,000 apparel and textile workers have lost their jobs. That's almost 200 workers a day, seven days a week, since the quota expired.
SYLVESTER: Retailers will try to stall the reimposition of quotas, calling it a tax.
ERIK AUTOR, NATIONAL RETAIL FEDERATION: I don't see any reason why the American government should impose a new quota on the American consumer, which essentially imposes a hidden tax on the clothing that they buy in the stores.
SYLVESTER: And so the battle over textiles drags on while American workers worry whether their plant will survive the next quarter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Commerce Department's Committee for the Implementation of Textile Agreements can stretch this process out even longer by asking for a 60-day extension to make a decision. And consultations with China could last as long as three months -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, consultations with China have taken far longer than that, unfortunately, Lisa. I don't know what it takes to awaken a government, but it certainly -- your report here tonight on just the crushing impact of these exports to the United States on the U.S. textile industry, if they don't awaken to this I don't know what it would take.
Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester. Another example tonight of China's unfair trade practices. China is taking advantage of illegal logging and cheap labor to flood this country with cheap furniture. And that is taking a devastating toll at the same time on some of the world's most precious resources, specifically forests.
Stan Grant reports from Beijing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STAN GRANT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That furniture you're buying, it's stamped "Made in China." But where does it really come from? It could be caught up in a Web of illegal logging and corruption that is ravaging some of the world's most precious forests.
JIM HARKNESS, WORLD WIDE FUND FOR NATURE: By the time you pick up the chair at the furniture store, it can be virtually impossible to know where it came from.
GRANT: To join the dots, turn to this report from the World Wide Fund for Nature. China now imports 16 times the amount of timber it did in 1997. The fund says to meet that growing demand, Chinese industry relies on a smuggler's trail that includes Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand, Africa, too, and Congo. The fund says half of Congo's timber ends up in China.
The Chinese government successfully clamped down on illegal logging at home and is promising to do the same with imports. But conservationists say that for now it is the hub of illegal timber trafficking.
They don't get reliable information from the countries where the forests are to begin with. I don't think that they are going to go out of their way to say, well, we want to track this log back to the forest of Gavon (ph).
GRANT: Inexpensive, often illegal wood, add cheap labor, and China has a manufacturing edge. It is flooding the U.S. market. Good quality furniture at a low cost. China supplies one-third of U.S. wooden furniture imports.
The U.S. International Trade Commission ruled last year that Chinese bedroom furniture was being dumped on the American market. The Furniture Retailers of America disagreed, saying that extra duties on Chinese furniture were a tax on U.S. consumers.
(on camera): Price aside, how can the consumer be sure they are not buying furniture made from illegal timber? Well, they can ask the retailer to provide a proper certificate. But the real answer, says the World Wide Fund is for the government to do more. And for that, look to China.
Stan Grant, CNN, southern China.
(END VIDEOTAPE) DOBBS: In this country, beginning today, supermarkets all across the United States are required to label the country of origin of all seafood imported into the United States. The Farm Bill, which was passed in 2002, called for country of origin labels on all meat, peanuts, produce and seafood imported into this country.
Officials have warned of a possible attack on the food supply. Former Health and Human Services secretary Tommy Thompson said he could not understand why terrorists have not attacked our food supply. In spite of those concerns, Congress has forcibly delayed country of origin labels on every one of those items except seafood until next year.
And that brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe the U.S. government should speed up the process of labeling all food sold in the United States with a country of origin label, yes or no? Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Up next here, two very different views about the Minuteman Project. I'll be talking with a leading congressman who calls the minutemen American heroes. I'll also be joined by two harsh critics of the project who say the minutemen are vigilantes.
And the high cost of illegal immigration, why American taxpayers are paying hundreds of millions of dollars for illegal aliens who are committing crimes on our soil.
Those stories and more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Minuteman Project is under way in Arizona, as we've reported. Hundreds of American citizens patrolling the most vulnerable stretch of our nation's border with Mexico. The minutemen say their mission is to be alert and to tell the Border Patrol when they see illegal aliens crossing the border. And so far, that appears to be working.
Congressman Tom Tancredo this weekend called the volunteers American heroes. Congressman Tancredo is the chairman of the Immigration Reform Caucus, joining us tonight from Denver, Colorado.
Congressman, good to have you with us. Is it, in your judgment, the Minuteman Project working?
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R-CO), IMMIGRATION REFORM CAUCUS: It seems to be. I've read accounts just recently about the fact that, you know, they have been -- there have been sightings of people who have come across the border illegally. Those people have been turned over to the Border Patrol, and the Border Patrol takes custody.
That's -- that's all this is supposed to be. The folks who are out there doing this are not themselves confronting anyone. They are just there to observe, to use binoculars and a cell phone and call the Border Patrol. DOBBS: Now, as you know, a number of critics have suggested that there are members of hate groups in these volunteers, that they are simply -- it's a potential nightmare waiting to unfold. What is your judgment?
TANCREDO: My judgment is that that is exactly what they would like to have happen. That the folks on the other side of the issue are looking desperately for anyone that they could point to as being a representative of these "hate groups." And then they will try to paint everyone down there, 1,000, 1,500 people, however many there will be in the course of a month, with that brush.
Let me tell you that there may be -- there may be hate groups or individuals who are involved with hate groups. They may be there. But if they are, they are on both sides of the issue.
I guarantee you there are as many people down there who I would call, you know, participating in hate group activity on the other side. Some of the things that are said...
DOBBS: Well, wait, wait, wait, Congressman. If you are suggesting -- are you saying with certain knowledge that there are members of the hate group within the minutemen?
TANCREDO: Oh, no, I certainly do not know that at all. I'm just saying...
DOBBS: And are you saying with certain knowledge that there are members of hate groups amongst the critics of the minutemen?
TANCREDO: No, I cannot identify them individually. But I can tell you...
DOBBS: As the saying goes, if I can put this in parlance...
TANCREDO: All right.
DOBBS: ... the vernacular, let's not go there.
TANCREDO: OK.
DOBBS: And deal with what we understand to be the case.
TANCREDO: What would be the case. That's fair enough.
DOBBS: Let's go to the other issue, which is the fact that the Border Patrol has said that they do not want the vigilantes, as President Bush has referred to them, and President Fox of Mexico do not want them there. But it appears that at least that the margin have provided some help.
What is your judgment, your thought about President Bush referring to these men and women, these volunteers as is vigilantes?
TANCREDO: I think it's a reflection of the fact that he really and truly is completely out of touch with what is going on, on that border. And he cannot really, I think, understand the frustration that these folks feel.
And, by the way, they are coming from all over the United States to express that frustration. And all they are asking him for is to do his duty as the head of the -- of the executive branch of government and enforce the law, the law on the border.
Now, frankly, I think that that's not a vigilante type of activity. It is what American citizens do.
DOBBS: Let's talk about what citizens do. These volunteers are there, many of them have vowed to stay there for some time. Others spending a day or two or three to express their views that our border security needs to be enforced.
At what point do you think that the Minuteman Project will dissipate and conclude?
TANCREDO: Well, of course it's scheduled to be operating for a month. I have a feeling that if it works as well as it's worked for the last couple of days, that it will be replicated in other parts of the United States on other parts of the border. I think that is a distinct possibility.
And you know what is neat, Lou, so far it appears to be working. Not just in terms of the fact that there have been no bad incidents, but they are actually restricting the flow of people into this country who are trying to get here illegally. Now, what does that tell you? And what should that tell the government of the United States? The fact is, we can do it. It is an application of resources to the border. We can in fact control our borders if we want to. And that's what this -- I think this whole thing is trying to show.
DOBBS: Let me ask you very quickly. We're basically out of time, but we have reported here the statement out of the U.S. embassy in Mexico City, saying that any -- if any members of the civilian groups -- referring to the Minutemen -- violate any U.S. law, they will face criminal prosecution, but no mention whatsoever of consequences for Mexican citizens breaking U.S. law by entering the country illegally. What is your reaction to that? Should there be some reaction on the part of the men and women who join you in the U.S. Congress and the Senate?
TANCREDO: You bet there should be. There probably won't be. We've heard these kinds of things before from the government of Mexico. I don't know what the word in Spanish is for chutzpah, but whatever it is, they have got it.
DOBBS: Congressman Tom Tancredo, we thank you for being here.
TANCREDO: Pleasure.
DOBBS: Two of the most outspoken opponents of the Minutemen Project join me here in just a few minutes. They say the volunteers are simply vigilantes. Tonight, we begin our special report, the high cost of illegal immigration. The fastest growing segment of the U.S. prison population is not American, not U.S. citizens -- but you've guessed it, criminal illegal aliens. And even more staggering, the federal government, which refuses to secure our borders, wants to cut off its already limited funding for criminal and illegal aliens in state and local jails. Christine Romans has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The majority of the convicts in this Tucson prison have entered this country illegally, committed crimes here, and are now incarcerated at taxpayer expense. At $53 a day for each illegal alien, with nearly 4,000 criminals in all, that's a price tag of $77 million a year. Arizona thinks Washington should pay. The state got only $6 million in federal funds for criminal aliens last year, and recently sent the U.S. attorney general a bill for the rest, reasoning if the federal government can't keep criminals out, it should pay the cost when illegal aliens land in jail. Dora Schriro runs Arizona's prisons.
DORA SCHRIRO, DIR., ARIZONA DEPT. OF CORRECTIONS: For paying when they come over the border and commit crimes here and then are punished here, but then we pay more because, not only are we not receiving the reimbursement to which we're entitled, but then this option is languishing in our prisons rather than being sent back to their home countries
ROMANS: Arizona says it has almost 500 criminals waiting to be deported.
Los Angeles Sheriff Lee Baca has 4,000 criminal illegal aliens in his custody at $22,000 a year each. Total yearly cost to L.A. County, at least $88 million. He says there are 40,000 criminal illegal aliens in California and most will cost taxpayers more than once.
LEE BACA, LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF: If a person is arrested for rape and they're an illegal immigrant and they go through the system and then they serve their time and they are deported, the likelihood of that person coming back to the United States to continue to commit additional crimes is very high.
ROMANS: Over five years, he says, 70% of the criminal illegal aliens who are deported will re-enter and be rearrested four more times in L.A. County.
BACA: The criminal illegal immigrant apparently has no trouble coming back at all.
ROMANS: Immigration and customs enforcement says it is doing the best it can. From October to February it deported 52,000 people, 31, 000 with criminal records.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (on camera): Yet the numbers of criminal illegal aliens in our prisons and jails grow. In the federal prison system 28% of the inmate are non U.S. citizens. All 50 states had criminal illegal aliens in their state prisons and local jails last year. Lou, all those states sought funding underneath this Federal-State Criminal Assistance Program, but they say it's just not enough. This is a fast growing population. There's not enough money.
DOBBS: To be clear, the cost of illegal immigration, which is primarily for the purpose of exploiting cheap labor and corporate America is a principal beneficiary -- the principal beneficiary -- the Bush administration refusing to enforce the borders, adding more burden to our state budget strains. At the same time the Bush administration is reducing the scrap program as it is so eloquently called, a program that the president supported when he was governor of the state of Texas.
ROMANS: Because he needed some of that money when he was the state of Texas to pay for illegal aliens in his jails.
DOBBS: The number of illegal aliens has, what, in the last...
ROMANS: It has quadrupled over the past decade.
DOBBS: Quadrupled. Christine, thank you putting that in stark, stark relief.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts.
Francisco Arambula of Santa Barbara, California, wrote in about the millions of children born to illegal aliens in this country, who are granted automatic citizenship, so called "anchor babies." "I am a Latino college student who watches your show regularly, and what you so callously refer to as an 'anchor baby.' I am appalled and disgusted at your dehumanization of American citizens for being born into an immigrant family. That terms is racist, and you owe -- owl -- owe all Americans an apology for it. You disappoint me, Lou."
DOBBS: Well, you disappoint me just a little, too, as I've made clear here, every time. I'm not against immigrants -- legal immigrants -- nor their families. I am against illegal immigration and I am against illegal aliens flooding into this country to enjoy the rights and privileges that should be the reserve of U.S. citizens. If people want to move to this country, we have an apparatus by which they may do so. Our immigration policy should not be run by the government of Mexico.
Chester Walter of Round Rock, Texas, wrote in to say, "Do you not concede that illegal aliens pay taxes on their U.S. income, just as U.S. citizens do. Their tax payments are just free income for local, state, and federal governments."
No, Chester, I do not concede your assertion. In point of fact, illegal aliens in this country are a substantial part of the underground economy, a trillion dollar underground economy, being paid in cash by employers who exploit them and their illegal status. Federal, state and local government paying billions of dollars to cover the cost of their healthcare, education and social services.
Mike White in Albany, Connecti -- Kentucky wrote in to say, "We're just next door to Tennessee. We have a Cagel's Chicken plant here which employs hundreds of illegal Hispanics. These people are taking jobs from local citizens. This is true of poultry plants everywhere. This will not change until the companies that openly employ illegals are punished."
And Brian in Baltimore, Maryland, "If Mexico's Vicente Fox is so worried about the Minutemen endangering his people, then he should keep his people in his country, and quit trying to tell us how to run ours. Also, if they are truly his people, why are they trying to leave his country by the thousands?"
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. Each of the e-mails that are read here receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America." And, our email newsletter's available; sign up on our website, loudobbs.com.
In our quote of the day, we think that Faye Leedy, a Minuteman volunteer, spoke for millions of American citizens when she said, "it has nothing to do with racism. I love the Mexican people. They are beautiful people. I see nothing wrong with them coming here. But they need to do it according to the law."
Coming up next -- two outspoken critics of the Minutemen project -- why they call them 'vigilantes.' And Father John Paris will join me to talk about what is next with the Catholic Church and millions of American Catholics after the death of Pope John Paul II. And a remarkable soldier is awarded this nation's highest honor for his sacrifice in the name of freedom.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we reported, a number of groups are protesting the Minuteman Project.
I'm joined now by two of the most outspoken critics of the project. Benjamin Johnson is director of the Immigration Policy Center, who's been a guest here frequently. In point of fact, he says the Minutemen are armed vigilantes that pose a serious risk with very little return. And Enrique Morones is a member of a Mexican government commission on migration and borders and the founder of the Border Angels, who says the leaders of the Minuteman Project are promoting an environment of fear.
Good to have you both here.
BENJAMIN JOHNSON, DIRECTOR, IMMIGRATION POLICY CENTER: Good to be back.
ENRIQUE MORONES, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, BORDER ANGELS: Buenos tardes.
DOBBS: There are many, many cross-currents in this discussion of illegal immigration. But certainly the idea that the Minutemen are creating fear, Enrique, how do they create fear?
MORONES: Well, the Minuteman militia that's been formed, I see it as a hate group that has gotten together using patriotic names like the Minutemen to promote fear and to promote misinformation in the community about the reality of the issue.
The reality is that people are crossing the border like they have for hundreds of years. And we should be treating this in a humanitarian method, working with both governments, both President Bush and President Fox, but not allowing people from across the country to take arms and to go to the Arizona-Mexico border to supposedly be observers.
These aren't observers. Some of these people have criminal backgrounds. Some of the Web sites that have catered to these people, National Alliance, Aryan Resistance, are racist Web sites.
And it's a very, very scary message, and I believe it's a recipe for disaster.
DOBBS: You believe it's a recipe for disaster, as does Ben Johnson. Ben, why?
JOHNSON: Well, I do think it's a recipe for disaster. I think it's unfortunate that when you had one of the leaders of the Minuteman Project on your show, he avoided the call for peaceful resistance. He talked about the fact that some people will have guns, they won't have long arms, or whatever some strange distinction was that he was making.
But the fact of the matter is, is, you've got folks on the border who are armed and angry. And that is a recipe for disaster.
DOBBS: But let me explain something to those who did not -- I'm sure all of our viewers watch every minute every night. But for those who did not, it was Chris Simcox, the run -- who runs the project, who did make a rather strange, as Ben said, distinction between long arms, that is, rifles, which he considered to be offensive, and sidearms, which he categorized as defensive.
I quite agree with you. I was not taken by the distinction at all.
But at the same time, I am taken by the fact that three days into this project, gentlemen, there have been no incidents of violence. In point of fact, the Minutemen have, as exactly they said they would do, alerted the border patrol to illegal crossing of illegal aliens.
Aren't you impressed by that, Enrique?
MORONES: Well, Lou, if they're so interested in being vigilantes and in so-called protecting the border, they should join the border patrol or join the National Guard. There's a correct way to do this. But what they're doing, and whether it's long arms or short arms, they shouldn't have been carrying weapons.
DOBBS: And Rocky -- Enrique, don't you think that there is just an exact parallel here? They describe themselves as undocumented border patrolmen, working to stop undocumented, as you and others would have it be described, immigrants. Doesn't doesn't that seem to be a perfect metaphor? Isn't there some symmetry in that? MORONES: Could you imagine if the citizens of Mexico went up to the border with guns and said, We're going to be out there watching for our countrymen? Mexico allows people to travel freely. The Mexican government is doing a lot, developing the economy of Mexico. They don't want the people to leave, contrary to a lot of the information that's let out in the media...
DOBBS: Well, that's interesting. Let me come back to that in just a minute. Ben, you wanted to say something here.
JOHNSON: Well, I just, I mean, if the parallel is fine, you know, undocumented immigrants and undocumented law enforcement personnel. But the point is that undocumented immigration is bad, something we need to try to stop. And this undocumented enforcement of immigration law is a distraction from the dialogue we need to have about how you end illegal immigration in this country.
The fact of the matter is, is, the people at the border -- I was born in Arizona, raised there, I know their frustrations. But they deserve real solutions to these problems. And this is not going to be a solution to the problem of undocumented immigration. So it's a distraction from the debate.
DOBBS: Well, could you both agree on one thing?
Could you both agree that no matter what reform we put forward in immigration in this -- in immigration policy in this country, the first thing that must be done, in the interests of national security, is absolute border security. Could you both agree with that? Ben, could you?
JOHNSON: Well, I don't think, I think the connection between terrorism and immigration is grossly overstated in most instance...
DOBBS: I'm sorry, I wasn't drawing a connection.
JOHNSON: ... so...
DOBBS: I was simply saying that any reform of immigration which would control those who come across our borders and exit the country, first, has to require absolute border security. Does it not?
JOHNSON: I agree that the goal here should be to have a safe, legal, orderly system of immigration, and that in the long run, that that will be better for our security.
DOBBS: So you agree that border security is critically important, a condition precedent before we do anything else?
JOHNSON: I think that border reform, immigration reform, will improve homeland security. Street enforcement...(ph)
DOBBS: Ah, that's a distinction, Ben.
DOBBS: What I'm really trying to get to is, would you or would you not support, as a condition precedent to immigration reform -- let's say I sign up right now for a liberalization of immigration, but that I insist that all immigration be legal.
JOHNSON: I want...
DOBBS: But the condition preceding has to be border security for the national security.
JOHNSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
DOBBS: For protection of people like all of us.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm sorry, Enrique, I'll give you a chance in just a moment. I'd like to hear Ben's answer.
JOHNSON: I want all immigration to be legal. That should be the norm. Immigrants should come to the United States legally, but I've heard...
DOBBS: Then you, you know you are not answering my question.
JOHNSON: I've heard you write and say before that we need to enforce the current immigration laws before we reform them. And that just doesn't make sense. If the laws are appropriate...
DOBBS: OK. You're entitled to your view. You're entitled to your view.
JOHNSON: If they don't work...
DOBBS: All I'm asking for is your view.
JOHNSON: ... then they should be fixed.
DOBBS: OK, Enrique?
JOHNSON: And the notion that we wait around until they get better is just not going to happen.
DOBBS: Enrique, it's your turn now.
MORONES: What we need to do is be working in cooperation with the neighboring countries. The Canadian border is twice as long. You can just walk right across that border.
And I think what we should be doing is building fences of -- triple, triple -- we should be building bridges of communication, and not triple fences of separation.
This issue of security and terrorism is important to everybody. Nobody wants terrorists. But the best way to do that is to be building friendships, be working together with the neighboring countries, not having the military buildup along the border. Very dangerous, civilians and also the military...
DOBBS: Isn't it more... MORONES: ... being along that border, very scary...
DOBBS: But are you saying you don't want absolute U.S. control of that border?
MORONES: I think it should be done in an intelligent and humane manner, not the way that it's being done right now.
DOBBS: Intelligent and humane.
MORONES: Thirty-two people have...
MORONES: ... 3,200 people have died in the last 10 years, 16,000...
DOBBS: Thirty-two hundred people.
MORONES: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
DOBBS: I have to tell you, I feel terrible...
MORONES: ... Operation (UNINTELLIGIBLE)-
DOBBS: ... about it. I agree with the Minuteman volunteer who said, My heart goes out to them. I understand their motives. But Enrique, let me ask you something. Three million illegal aliens crossed our border last year alone. That would be 320, the percentages are a extraordinary, against the number of people who have put themselves at risk. And surely...
MORONES: If it's illegal aliens, you should be talking to NASA. If we are talking about human beings, we should be looking at...
DOBBS: OK.
MORONES: ... an intelligent border policy...
DOBBS: All right. No, actually, I'm talking about Americans. And I think that's a critically important issue.
MORONES: Well, the Americas are a big continent.
DOBBS: I'm sorry?
MORONES: The Americas are a big continent.
DOBBS: Do you have, by the way...
MORONES: People should be working together...
DOBBS: ...Enrique, do you have Mexican citizenship and U.S. citizenship?
MORONES: I have dual nationality. I was born and raised...
DOBBS: So are you speaking here tonight... DOBBS: ... as a Mexican citizen, or a U.S. citizen?
MORONES: I'm speaking as a human being. And I think we're all the same race, the human race. And that's the way I like to address these issues.
DOBBS: I agree with you when it comes to race.
Thank you for being here.
JOHNSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
DOBBS: Enrique, we appreciate it.
MORONES: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Ben, thank you very much.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
DOBBS: Next, we'll be discussing what's next for the Catholic Church with a leading expert on the pontificate.
And the compelling story of an Army sergeant who gave his life to save the lives of his comrades and won the Medal of Honor. That story is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest says the Catholic Church has a wide range of critical issues before it to deal with since the death of Pope John Paul II. The pope's reign is officially over at the end of his funeral mass this Friday. His body now lies in state. Joining me now from Boston is Father John Paris, a professor of bioethics at Boston College. And we're delighted to have you back with us, father.
REV. JOHN PARIS, PROFESSOR OF BIOETHICS, BOSTON U.: Thank You, Lou.
DOBBS: The issues for the next pope are -- certainly will be in many ways similar to those that faced Pope John Paul II. At the same time this election now occurring as it does a quarter century -- more than a quarter century after Pope John Paul's selection as pontiff, what -- who do you expect to emerge as the favorite? Will we see a European pope in your judgment? Will we see a Latin American pope? Will we see an Asian or African pope?
PARIS: Woe bee tides the one who thinks he can discern what's going to happen in a conclave. No one thought we'd have a Polish pope. In great part we actually believe that the spirit is at work in this. But whoever it is going to face a lot of problems, serious and significant problems much the way John Paul did. He came in the face of communism, that was a leading issue. That issue was over, but the myriad of problems that faced the entire world, which any spiritual leader is going to have to face. The task of the next pontiff, and those we're going to have to discern. DOBBS: Those issues, what would you suggest they are?
PARIS: Well, certainly it's going to be the widening gap between the wealthy and the poverty, between rich nations and poor nations, between wealth within a nation. Within the church a very specific problem is the role of women. This pontiff with all of his strengths did not address that problem in a very direct fashion other than to say we could not have ordination of women. But precluding that, presuming from that, what is the role of women within the church? They constitute half of humanity. And they don't have a very large role in the church. AIDS, HIV/AIDS in Africa is one of the pressing moral problems of our age and the church has not really in any significant way addressed that issue. The over...
DOBBS: Lets -- sorry go ahead.
PARIS: Go ahead. And the one other is the overly authoritarian structure of the church as presently constituted. There's far, far too much centralization in Rome and not enough within the diocese in individual areas of the church.
DOBBS: Just amongst the issue that you brought up, Father Paris, that is the ordination of women. Finding a role, a greater role for women within the Catholic Church, the priests in the United States, the number dwindling. The number of older priests, a far outnumbering younger priests in the church in this country. Those critical issues, is there any particular view, any particular person of whom you're aware in the College of Cardinals whose views sort of extend to those critically important areas that would influence, of course, this country?
PARIS: Well, certainly one of those who's spoken out rather strongly on these issues is cardinal archbishop of Belgium, Cardinal Daniels. He's been very much willing to address these issues. For the most part, though, the cardinals have not been articulate in pointing out the different problems, because these have not been their issues to date. But now as they face where do we go into the 21st century, this is, indeed, the problems that they are going to have to contemplate as they select the individual who's going to lead the church in the face of all of these.
DOBBS: A daunting task for anyone chosen in the conclave. We thank you very much. Father John Paris. Thank you.
PARIS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: President Bush presents this country's highest award for bravery to the family of a U.S. army sergeant. We will have that inspiring story when we continue. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush today presented this country's highest award for valor, the Medal of Honor, to the family of a soldier killed in Iraq exactly two years ago. Sergeant First Class Paul Smith sacrificed his own life to defend his unit against a much stronger force of enemy soldiers. He is credited with saving the lives of 100 American troops. President Bush presented the Medal of Honor to Sergeant Smith's 11-year-old son David at the White House today. The president said Sergeant Smith gave his life for freedom. We'll continue in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight, 98 percent of you say the U.S. government should speed up the process of requiring the labeling of all food sold in this country with a country of origin label.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. The exploding illegal alien population is putting a huge strain on our natural resources as well as our economic and social resources. Our special report, "The High Cost of Illegal Immigration."
And the Senate prepares to debate giving legal stat to us half a million illegal alien agricultural workers. That story and more tomorrow, please be with us.
For all of us here, good night from New York, ANDERSON COOPER 360 is next.
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LOU DOBBS, HOST: Tonight, remembering Pope John Paul II. The pope's body lies in state. Tens of thousands of people are paying their last respects. We'll have a live report from Vatican City.
Also tonight, the Minuteman Project, this country's largest neighborhood watch project. We'll have extensive coverage of the first weekend of border patrols in Arizona. My guests include a congressman who strongly supports those volunteers and two outspoken critics who say those volunteers are really vigilantes.
And the high cost of free trade. A new wave of Chinese textile imports to this country is flooding our markets. Two hundred American textile workers lose their jobs each and every day. Our textile industry is simply being destroyed. And the Bush administration's response: it has now put the issue in front of a Commerce Department committee.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
Two days after the pope died his body is tonight lying in state in St. Peter's Basilica in Vatican City. Thousands of people are filing past his body, paying their last respects. As many as two million people are expected to view his body before the pope's funeral this coming Friday.
Jim Bittermann has the report from Vatican City -- Jim.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Lou, in fact there are thousands more waiting to see his body this evening. This is rather an incredible scene on what -- in a day that's been filled with incredible scenes.
There are tens of thousands of people still waiting to see the pope's body. The Vatican says the doors will stay open here until 2 a.m. in the morning, and they will then close down for about three hours because they have to do some cleaning and some technical work to get things ready for that Friday funeral.
But people are still pouring in here. And just to give you an idea, back behind the camera, there's about 500 yards of people waiting in line. And as you look across St. Peter's Square, you can see the long line for maybe 300 yards across St. Peter's Square. And then once you get into St. Peter's Basilica it's another perhaps 200 yards to the pope's body itself.
So all total you're talking about probably more than a half mile of people who are stacked 20 or 30 across waiting to see the pope's body. Obviously, they're not going to -- a lot of them are not going to get a chance to do that tonight. They'll probably be told in just a few minutes now to be -- to come back tomorrow. At least the ones at the end of the line. And they all have to just wait for another day.
We expected the viewing is now going to be -- going to be continued throughout the evenings and nights all the rest of the week until the funeral.
Now, other things that happened today, the pope's body was moved from the Clementina Sala, which is the hall where the pope himself received so many dignitaries, presidents and diplomats, moved from there in a procession on the shoulders of 12 pallbearers. A procession that included many of the cardinals that are gathered -- gathering, I should say, because they're starting to gather here for the conclave to choose the next pope -- Lou.
DOBBS: Jim Bittermann from Vatican City. Thank you, Jim.
Father John Paris of Boston College will be joining us here later in the broadcast to discuss the issues that now face the Catholic Church, what is next for the papacy, the likely candidates to succeed Pope John Paul II, and the issues, of course, facing American Catholics and a billion Catholics all around the world.
President Bush and the first lady will lead the U.S. delegation, of course, at the pope's funeral Friday. President Bush made that announcement during a visit to the White House by the newly elected president of Ukraine.
White House correspondent Dana Bash reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DANA BASH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president says he looks forward to leading the U.S. delegation to the pope's funeral, noting his lesson and legacy.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: One man can make a difference in people's lives. He's a courageous person, he's a moral person. He was a godly person.
BASH: Mr. Bush was the last of five presidents to know John Paul II.
BUSH: I can remember him taking us out on the balcony of this fabulous palace over looking the magnificent lake and talking about his views of the world. It was a moment I'll never forget during my presidency.
This is so beautiful, your holiness. BASH: There the pope warned the president he had a moral duty to ban stem cell research, not just limit it. It was Mr. Bush's first taste of John Paul II's penchant for blunt talk with American presidents.
Another, his staunch opposition to the defining event of the Bush presidency: the Iraq war, a controversial subject at their last Vatican meeting.
BUSH: He was a man of peace and he didn't like -- he didn't like war. And I fully understood that. And I appreciated the conversations I had with the Holy Father on the subject.
BASH: It's the peaceful transition to democracy from communism the pope is being remembered for helping start, especially in his native Eastern Europe, the kind led by the president's guest, Ukrainian president Viktor Yushchenko, invited to highlight what Mr. Bush sees as a major gain for democracy and freedom.
But Mr. Yushchenko made clear to the president listening to the will of his people means pulling Ukraine's 1,600-plus troops out of Iraq.
BUSH: He's fulfilling a campaign pledge. I fully understand that. But he also has said that he's going to cooperate with -- with the coalition.
BASH: The high profile support for Yushchenko is a strain on U.S.-Russia relations. The president pointed out the two also discussed the delicate and evolving political climates in other former Soviet republics that have Moscow wary.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And the timing was oddly appropriate, the Yushchenko visit putting a spotlight on the dramatic political evolution in Eastern Europe that many believe occurred at least in part because of John Paul II -- Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you. And because of the pope's funeral this week, Dana, a lot of the nation's business has been simply postponed until next week. Is that correct?
BASH: Well, the president is shifting his schedule, obviously, a bit. At the end of the week, he was going to go to Fort Hood. That has been postponed. But he is going to keep a very important meeting next week and that is a meeting at his ranch at Crawford, Texas, with the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon.
DOBBS: Dana, thank you very much. Dana Bash from the White House.
Turning now to another critically important national issue, and that's the issue of illegal immigration, an issue that President Bush has done little to address so far in this, his second term. Hundreds of volunteers, however, have taken action on their own along the most porous stretch of our border with Mexico. This weekend, supporters of the Minuteman Project helped apprehend illegal immigrants in Arizona, as they intended to do. But contrary to expectations of some critics, there was no violence at all.
Casey Wian reports from the border town of Naco, Arizona.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Border patrol are out there, ready and waiting for us.
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: After six months of planning, it's finally time for the Minutemen to patrol the border. Project organizer Chris Simcox speaks to volunteers before they head out to their posts for the first time.
CHRIS SIMCOX, MINUTEMAN PROJECT: The world will see finally who we really are. And they'll stop branding us with all of these negative labels.
WIAN: As they move into position the Minutemen are under instructions to report any illegal aliens they see to the border patrol.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to call border patrol right away and just try to assist them in the best way I can. Homeland security begins right here at this border.
WIAN: Though many are armed, they say they won't detain anyone.
(on camera) This is an example of some of the desert terrain they will be patrolling, miles and miles of border, unguarded except for a barbed wire fence.
And in many places along the border that fence is little more than an inconvenience. Sneaking into the United States is as easy as this.
(voice-over) And that's what brings the Minutemen here. On day two, these volunteers found five illegal aliens hiding under a cement culvert three miles from the border. They called the border patrol and began to shoot this video.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While I was doing this one guy left the culvert, right here. Took off back toward the mountains. He wasn't gone for very long. And here he comes back.
WIAN: The border patrol arrived and took the five men away. It's exactly how the Minuteman Project is intended to work.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have so many illegals at home and in Georgia that I'm just glad to see that there's five less that aren't going to make it into the interior of the country. WIAN: The Minuteman say they helped apprehend more than 100 illegal aliens in two days, welcome news for this local family, who often encounter alien and drug smugglers near their home.
(on camera) Do you support the Minutemen?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You bet I do. I'm glad they're here. It's about time.
WIAN: Although there were fears of violent confrontations between Minutemen, illegal aliens, smugglers, even the Mexican law enforcement officers who watch from across the border, the weekend was peaceful.
SIMCOX: ACLU observers, great, now we know everyone's rights will be protected, including ours.
SHERIFF LARRY DEVER, COCHISE COUNTY, ARIZONA: I think people just in general are wanting this to be a positive atmosphere and environment so that they're not reflected badly upon the message that they're trying to deliver.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: if the message is sent to the White House all well and good. Those are our elected representatives, and they need to understand we're serious about this issue, and we want it taken care of.
WIAN: Or they will help take care of it themselves. Though many are now returning home, others will stay throughout the month, helping to secure this stretch of the southern border.
Casey Wian, CNN, Naco, Arizona.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The Minuteman Project is what some call this country's biggest neighborhood watch project ever. Many people came to the border to demonstrate their support for the Minutemen volunteers and their mission.
But there was also a number of protesters, who declared that some of the volunteers are, quote, "domestic terrorists."
Bill Tucker reports from the border.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They gathered along the southern border of Arizona at the Border Patrol stations of Naco and Douglas, people from California, Oregon, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Texas, Massachusetts, as many as 19 different states. And, yes, there were locals there, too.
I could stand on my back porch, use my binoculars, pick up my phone, call in to Border Patrol, and they come pick them up. TUCKER: The demonstrations were orderly, friendly, with a great deal of support shown for the Border Patrol, dispelling concerns that the demonstrations would be violent.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're the typical minute person. This is what minute people look like.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, average Americans. And all ages. We're the largest group of neighborhood watch you will ever see.
CROWD: Close our borders, Bush! Close our borders, Bush!
TUCKER: There was anger, most of it directed at President Bush.
We are very upset that we voted for President Bush and that he has stabbed the American people in the back by allowing these open borders.
TUCKER: And not everyone was pleased with the idea of the minutemen patrols.
ARMANDO NAVARRO, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA RIVERSIDE: To us, this project is racist in nature. It's infiltrated by a bunch of domestic terrorists.
TUCKER: There were moments of confrontation. This one ended calmly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're working with our president. We'll see what we can do. Would you like a drink?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will take your drink.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
TUCKER: And many other minutemen supporters were not without sympathy for the plight of the people coming across the border illegally.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I have no quarrel with the people, and I -- in a way I feel sorry for them. I really do, because they need to work. It's a better life here.
We have a good life. And I don't blame them for wanting to come over. But do it legally.
TUCKER: And that's the point of the demonstrations and the civilian border patrol, says the co-founder of the Minuteman Project. That, and to focus attention on the problem of illegal migration.
JAMES GILCHRIST, MINUTEMAN PROJECT FOUNDER: There is a major, major problem in this country. And it will begin with Mexico changing its way. There's something seriously wrong with Mexico when 50 percent of its population want to leave that country.
(END VIDEOTAPE) TUCKER: Now, U.S. Border Patrol does not officially support the Minuteman Project, Lou. They're concerned about civilians placing themselves in harm's way. But they are relieved that at least for now the project has gotten off to a nonviolent beginning -- Lou.
DOBBS: Bill Tucker, there were quite a few interesting signs in that report. Amongst them, the "Osama bin Laden loves open borders"; "Look behind that Bush, there's a fox."
You know, I can't help but be struck by the fact that, as we do every day, we report on what the elites are saying and in some cases actually doing in this country, that there seems to be a lot of common sense masked along the Arizona-Mexico border these days.
TUCKER: Delivered in a plain, straightforward style, Lou. Not hard to understand.
DOBBS: Truth usually isn't. Bill Tucker, thank you very much.
The U.S. embassy in Mexico issued its own statement about the Minuteman Project. The U.S. embassy statement reads, "If any members of these civilian groups" -- referring to the minutemen -- "violate any U.S. law, they will face criminal prosecution." But amazingly, no mention of what the consequences would be for Mexican citizens breaking U.S. law by entering this country illegally.
Naturally, we were curious about that omission. And we called the U.S. embassy in Mexico city. They said their embassy statement was complete, and that if we had any questions about the penalties for illegal entry into this country, we should speak with the U.S. Border Patrol's national spokesman in Washington.
Later in the broadcast, I'll be talking with a leading congressman who says the minutemen volunteers are nothing less but American heroes. I will also be talking with two outspoken critics of the Minuteman Project who say the minutemen are simply vigilantes.
Up next here, the high cost of free trade. The huge price paid by American textile workers as cheap Chinese exports are flooding into the country.
In "Broken Borders," criminal illegal aliens swamping state and local prisons. But the federal government simply will not help.
Those stories are next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we've reported extensively here, the flood of cheap Chinese imports into this country has devastated the American textile industry. Since quotas limiting Chinese exports to this country expired, tens of thousands of American jobs have also expired. Now, after the damage has been done, the U.S. government has decided to put before a committee a question as to whether or not those imports are a threat to a critical American industry.
Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the first three months of this year, China has clobbered the U.S. textile market. Imports of Chinese cotton trousers jumped more than 1,500 percent. Cotton shirts more than 1,300 percent.
In response, the U.S. Commerce Department is finally opening up an investigation to decide whether to reimpose quotas on cotton knit shirts and blouse, trousers and underwear. The industry is happy but not jumping for joy.
AUGGIE TANTILLO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMTAC: We do need to realize that that's all it is, is a first step. The government would need to follow up these initiations of investigation with a quick decision to place quotas on China, and they would also need to cover a lot more categories than what was announced this afternoon.
SYLVESTER: Don't expect quick action. The self-initiated review begins a 30-day public comment period. Then up to 60 days later, the government will decide to impose safeguards and then must give China notice and begin negotiations. But each day of delay means more American jobs in jeopardy.
MARK LEVINSON, UNITE HERE: In the first 90 days of this year, over 17,000 apparel and textile workers have lost their jobs. That's almost 200 workers a day, seven days a week, since the quota expired.
SYLVESTER: Retailers will try to stall the reimposition of quotas, calling it a tax.
ERIK AUTOR, NATIONAL RETAIL FEDERATION: I don't see any reason why the American government should impose a new quota on the American consumer, which essentially imposes a hidden tax on the clothing that they buy in the stores.
SYLVESTER: And so the battle over textiles drags on while American workers worry whether their plant will survive the next quarter.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Commerce Department's Committee for the Implementation of Textile Agreements can stretch this process out even longer by asking for a 60-day extension to make a decision. And consultations with China could last as long as three months -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, consultations with China have taken far longer than that, unfortunately, Lisa. I don't know what it takes to awaken a government, but it certainly -- your report here tonight on just the crushing impact of these exports to the United States on the U.S. textile industry, if they don't awaken to this I don't know what it would take.
Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester. Another example tonight of China's unfair trade practices. China is taking advantage of illegal logging and cheap labor to flood this country with cheap furniture. And that is taking a devastating toll at the same time on some of the world's most precious resources, specifically forests.
Stan Grant reports from Beijing.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
STAN GRANT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): That furniture you're buying, it's stamped "Made in China." But where does it really come from? It could be caught up in a Web of illegal logging and corruption that is ravaging some of the world's most precious forests.
JIM HARKNESS, WORLD WIDE FUND FOR NATURE: By the time you pick up the chair at the furniture store, it can be virtually impossible to know where it came from.
GRANT: To join the dots, turn to this report from the World Wide Fund for Nature. China now imports 16 times the amount of timber it did in 1997. The fund says to meet that growing demand, Chinese industry relies on a smuggler's trail that includes Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand, Africa, too, and Congo. The fund says half of Congo's timber ends up in China.
The Chinese government successfully clamped down on illegal logging at home and is promising to do the same with imports. But conservationists say that for now it is the hub of illegal timber trafficking.
They don't get reliable information from the countries where the forests are to begin with. I don't think that they are going to go out of their way to say, well, we want to track this log back to the forest of Gavon (ph).
GRANT: Inexpensive, often illegal wood, add cheap labor, and China has a manufacturing edge. It is flooding the U.S. market. Good quality furniture at a low cost. China supplies one-third of U.S. wooden furniture imports.
The U.S. International Trade Commission ruled last year that Chinese bedroom furniture was being dumped on the American market. The Furniture Retailers of America disagreed, saying that extra duties on Chinese furniture were a tax on U.S. consumers.
(on camera): Price aside, how can the consumer be sure they are not buying furniture made from illegal timber? Well, they can ask the retailer to provide a proper certificate. But the real answer, says the World Wide Fund is for the government to do more. And for that, look to China.
Stan Grant, CNN, southern China.
(END VIDEOTAPE) DOBBS: In this country, beginning today, supermarkets all across the United States are required to label the country of origin of all seafood imported into the United States. The Farm Bill, which was passed in 2002, called for country of origin labels on all meat, peanuts, produce and seafood imported into this country.
Officials have warned of a possible attack on the food supply. Former Health and Human Services secretary Tommy Thompson said he could not understand why terrorists have not attacked our food supply. In spite of those concerns, Congress has forcibly delayed country of origin labels on every one of those items except seafood until next year.
And that brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe the U.S. government should speed up the process of labeling all food sold in the United States with a country of origin label, yes or no? Please cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results later in the broadcast.
Up next here, two very different views about the Minuteman Project. I'll be talking with a leading congressman who calls the minutemen American heroes. I'll also be joined by two harsh critics of the project who say the minutemen are vigilantes.
And the high cost of illegal immigration, why American taxpayers are paying hundreds of millions of dollars for illegal aliens who are committing crimes on our soil.
Those stories and more still ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The Minuteman Project is under way in Arizona, as we've reported. Hundreds of American citizens patrolling the most vulnerable stretch of our nation's border with Mexico. The minutemen say their mission is to be alert and to tell the Border Patrol when they see illegal aliens crossing the border. And so far, that appears to be working.
Congressman Tom Tancredo this weekend called the volunteers American heroes. Congressman Tancredo is the chairman of the Immigration Reform Caucus, joining us tonight from Denver, Colorado.
Congressman, good to have you with us. Is it, in your judgment, the Minuteman Project working?
REP. TOM TANCREDO (R-CO), IMMIGRATION REFORM CAUCUS: It seems to be. I've read accounts just recently about the fact that, you know, they have been -- there have been sightings of people who have come across the border illegally. Those people have been turned over to the Border Patrol, and the Border Patrol takes custody.
That's -- that's all this is supposed to be. The folks who are out there doing this are not themselves confronting anyone. They are just there to observe, to use binoculars and a cell phone and call the Border Patrol. DOBBS: Now, as you know, a number of critics have suggested that there are members of hate groups in these volunteers, that they are simply -- it's a potential nightmare waiting to unfold. What is your judgment?
TANCREDO: My judgment is that that is exactly what they would like to have happen. That the folks on the other side of the issue are looking desperately for anyone that they could point to as being a representative of these "hate groups." And then they will try to paint everyone down there, 1,000, 1,500 people, however many there will be in the course of a month, with that brush.
Let me tell you that there may be -- there may be hate groups or individuals who are involved with hate groups. They may be there. But if they are, they are on both sides of the issue.
I guarantee you there are as many people down there who I would call, you know, participating in hate group activity on the other side. Some of the things that are said...
DOBBS: Well, wait, wait, wait, Congressman. If you are suggesting -- are you saying with certain knowledge that there are members of the hate group within the minutemen?
TANCREDO: Oh, no, I certainly do not know that at all. I'm just saying...
DOBBS: And are you saying with certain knowledge that there are members of hate groups amongst the critics of the minutemen?
TANCREDO: No, I cannot identify them individually. But I can tell you...
DOBBS: As the saying goes, if I can put this in parlance...
TANCREDO: All right.
DOBBS: ... the vernacular, let's not go there.
TANCREDO: OK.
DOBBS: And deal with what we understand to be the case.
TANCREDO: What would be the case. That's fair enough.
DOBBS: Let's go to the other issue, which is the fact that the Border Patrol has said that they do not want the vigilantes, as President Bush has referred to them, and President Fox of Mexico do not want them there. But it appears that at least that the margin have provided some help.
What is your judgment, your thought about President Bush referring to these men and women, these volunteers as is vigilantes?
TANCREDO: I think it's a reflection of the fact that he really and truly is completely out of touch with what is going on, on that border. And he cannot really, I think, understand the frustration that these folks feel.
And, by the way, they are coming from all over the United States to express that frustration. And all they are asking him for is to do his duty as the head of the -- of the executive branch of government and enforce the law, the law on the border.
Now, frankly, I think that that's not a vigilante type of activity. It is what American citizens do.
DOBBS: Let's talk about what citizens do. These volunteers are there, many of them have vowed to stay there for some time. Others spending a day or two or three to express their views that our border security needs to be enforced.
At what point do you think that the Minuteman Project will dissipate and conclude?
TANCREDO: Well, of course it's scheduled to be operating for a month. I have a feeling that if it works as well as it's worked for the last couple of days, that it will be replicated in other parts of the United States on other parts of the border. I think that is a distinct possibility.
And you know what is neat, Lou, so far it appears to be working. Not just in terms of the fact that there have been no bad incidents, but they are actually restricting the flow of people into this country who are trying to get here illegally. Now, what does that tell you? And what should that tell the government of the United States? The fact is, we can do it. It is an application of resources to the border. We can in fact control our borders if we want to. And that's what this -- I think this whole thing is trying to show.
DOBBS: Let me ask you very quickly. We're basically out of time, but we have reported here the statement out of the U.S. embassy in Mexico City, saying that any -- if any members of the civilian groups -- referring to the Minutemen -- violate any U.S. law, they will face criminal prosecution, but no mention whatsoever of consequences for Mexican citizens breaking U.S. law by entering the country illegally. What is your reaction to that? Should there be some reaction on the part of the men and women who join you in the U.S. Congress and the Senate?
TANCREDO: You bet there should be. There probably won't be. We've heard these kinds of things before from the government of Mexico. I don't know what the word in Spanish is for chutzpah, but whatever it is, they have got it.
DOBBS: Congressman Tom Tancredo, we thank you for being here.
TANCREDO: Pleasure.
DOBBS: Two of the most outspoken opponents of the Minutemen Project join me here in just a few minutes. They say the volunteers are simply vigilantes. Tonight, we begin our special report, the high cost of illegal immigration. The fastest growing segment of the U.S. prison population is not American, not U.S. citizens -- but you've guessed it, criminal illegal aliens. And even more staggering, the federal government, which refuses to secure our borders, wants to cut off its already limited funding for criminal and illegal aliens in state and local jails. Christine Romans has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The majority of the convicts in this Tucson prison have entered this country illegally, committed crimes here, and are now incarcerated at taxpayer expense. At $53 a day for each illegal alien, with nearly 4,000 criminals in all, that's a price tag of $77 million a year. Arizona thinks Washington should pay. The state got only $6 million in federal funds for criminal aliens last year, and recently sent the U.S. attorney general a bill for the rest, reasoning if the federal government can't keep criminals out, it should pay the cost when illegal aliens land in jail. Dora Schriro runs Arizona's prisons.
DORA SCHRIRO, DIR., ARIZONA DEPT. OF CORRECTIONS: For paying when they come over the border and commit crimes here and then are punished here, but then we pay more because, not only are we not receiving the reimbursement to which we're entitled, but then this option is languishing in our prisons rather than being sent back to their home countries
ROMANS: Arizona says it has almost 500 criminals waiting to be deported.
Los Angeles Sheriff Lee Baca has 4,000 criminal illegal aliens in his custody at $22,000 a year each. Total yearly cost to L.A. County, at least $88 million. He says there are 40,000 criminal illegal aliens in California and most will cost taxpayers more than once.
LEE BACA, LOS ANGELES COUNTY SHERIFF: If a person is arrested for rape and they're an illegal immigrant and they go through the system and then they serve their time and they are deported, the likelihood of that person coming back to the United States to continue to commit additional crimes is very high.
ROMANS: Over five years, he says, 70% of the criminal illegal aliens who are deported will re-enter and be rearrested four more times in L.A. County.
BACA: The criminal illegal immigrant apparently has no trouble coming back at all.
ROMANS: Immigration and customs enforcement says it is doing the best it can. From October to February it deported 52,000 people, 31, 000 with criminal records.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROMANS (on camera): Yet the numbers of criminal illegal aliens in our prisons and jails grow. In the federal prison system 28% of the inmate are non U.S. citizens. All 50 states had criminal illegal aliens in their state prisons and local jails last year. Lou, all those states sought funding underneath this Federal-State Criminal Assistance Program, but they say it's just not enough. This is a fast growing population. There's not enough money.
DOBBS: To be clear, the cost of illegal immigration, which is primarily for the purpose of exploiting cheap labor and corporate America is a principal beneficiary -- the principal beneficiary -- the Bush administration refusing to enforce the borders, adding more burden to our state budget strains. At the same time the Bush administration is reducing the scrap program as it is so eloquently called, a program that the president supported when he was governor of the state of Texas.
ROMANS: Because he needed some of that money when he was the state of Texas to pay for illegal aliens in his jails.
DOBBS: The number of illegal aliens has, what, in the last...
ROMANS: It has quadrupled over the past decade.
DOBBS: Quadrupled. Christine, thank you putting that in stark, stark relief.
Taking a look now at some of your thoughts.
Francisco Arambula of Santa Barbara, California, wrote in about the millions of children born to illegal aliens in this country, who are granted automatic citizenship, so called "anchor babies." "I am a Latino college student who watches your show regularly, and what you so callously refer to as an 'anchor baby.' I am appalled and disgusted at your dehumanization of American citizens for being born into an immigrant family. That terms is racist, and you owe -- owl -- owe all Americans an apology for it. You disappoint me, Lou."
DOBBS: Well, you disappoint me just a little, too, as I've made clear here, every time. I'm not against immigrants -- legal immigrants -- nor their families. I am against illegal immigration and I am against illegal aliens flooding into this country to enjoy the rights and privileges that should be the reserve of U.S. citizens. If people want to move to this country, we have an apparatus by which they may do so. Our immigration policy should not be run by the government of Mexico.
Chester Walter of Round Rock, Texas, wrote in to say, "Do you not concede that illegal aliens pay taxes on their U.S. income, just as U.S. citizens do. Their tax payments are just free income for local, state, and federal governments."
No, Chester, I do not concede your assertion. In point of fact, illegal aliens in this country are a substantial part of the underground economy, a trillion dollar underground economy, being paid in cash by employers who exploit them and their illegal status. Federal, state and local government paying billions of dollars to cover the cost of their healthcare, education and social services.
Mike White in Albany, Connecti -- Kentucky wrote in to say, "We're just next door to Tennessee. We have a Cagel's Chicken plant here which employs hundreds of illegal Hispanics. These people are taking jobs from local citizens. This is true of poultry plants everywhere. This will not change until the companies that openly employ illegals are punished."
And Brian in Baltimore, Maryland, "If Mexico's Vicente Fox is so worried about the Minutemen endangering his people, then he should keep his people in his country, and quit trying to tell us how to run ours. Also, if they are truly his people, why are they trying to leave his country by the thousands?"
We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at loudobbs@cnn.com. Each of the e-mails that are read here receives a copy of my book, "Exporting America." And, our email newsletter's available; sign up on our website, loudobbs.com.
In our quote of the day, we think that Faye Leedy, a Minuteman volunteer, spoke for millions of American citizens when she said, "it has nothing to do with racism. I love the Mexican people. They are beautiful people. I see nothing wrong with them coming here. But they need to do it according to the law."
Coming up next -- two outspoken critics of the Minutemen project -- why they call them 'vigilantes.' And Father John Paris will join me to talk about what is next with the Catholic Church and millions of American Catholics after the death of Pope John Paul II. And a remarkable soldier is awarded this nation's highest honor for his sacrifice in the name of freedom.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As we reported, a number of groups are protesting the Minuteman Project.
I'm joined now by two of the most outspoken critics of the project. Benjamin Johnson is director of the Immigration Policy Center, who's been a guest here frequently. In point of fact, he says the Minutemen are armed vigilantes that pose a serious risk with very little return. And Enrique Morones is a member of a Mexican government commission on migration and borders and the founder of the Border Angels, who says the leaders of the Minuteman Project are promoting an environment of fear.
Good to have you both here.
BENJAMIN JOHNSON, DIRECTOR, IMMIGRATION POLICY CENTER: Good to be back.
ENRIQUE MORONES, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, BORDER ANGELS: Buenos tardes.
DOBBS: There are many, many cross-currents in this discussion of illegal immigration. But certainly the idea that the Minutemen are creating fear, Enrique, how do they create fear?
MORONES: Well, the Minuteman militia that's been formed, I see it as a hate group that has gotten together using patriotic names like the Minutemen to promote fear and to promote misinformation in the community about the reality of the issue.
The reality is that people are crossing the border like they have for hundreds of years. And we should be treating this in a humanitarian method, working with both governments, both President Bush and President Fox, but not allowing people from across the country to take arms and to go to the Arizona-Mexico border to supposedly be observers.
These aren't observers. Some of these people have criminal backgrounds. Some of the Web sites that have catered to these people, National Alliance, Aryan Resistance, are racist Web sites.
And it's a very, very scary message, and I believe it's a recipe for disaster.
DOBBS: You believe it's a recipe for disaster, as does Ben Johnson. Ben, why?
JOHNSON: Well, I do think it's a recipe for disaster. I think it's unfortunate that when you had one of the leaders of the Minuteman Project on your show, he avoided the call for peaceful resistance. He talked about the fact that some people will have guns, they won't have long arms, or whatever some strange distinction was that he was making.
But the fact of the matter is, is, you've got folks on the border who are armed and angry. And that is a recipe for disaster.
DOBBS: But let me explain something to those who did not -- I'm sure all of our viewers watch every minute every night. But for those who did not, it was Chris Simcox, the run -- who runs the project, who did make a rather strange, as Ben said, distinction between long arms, that is, rifles, which he considered to be offensive, and sidearms, which he categorized as defensive.
I quite agree with you. I was not taken by the distinction at all.
But at the same time, I am taken by the fact that three days into this project, gentlemen, there have been no incidents of violence. In point of fact, the Minutemen have, as exactly they said they would do, alerted the border patrol to illegal crossing of illegal aliens.
Aren't you impressed by that, Enrique?
MORONES: Well, Lou, if they're so interested in being vigilantes and in so-called protecting the border, they should join the border patrol or join the National Guard. There's a correct way to do this. But what they're doing, and whether it's long arms or short arms, they shouldn't have been carrying weapons.
DOBBS: And Rocky -- Enrique, don't you think that there is just an exact parallel here? They describe themselves as undocumented border patrolmen, working to stop undocumented, as you and others would have it be described, immigrants. Doesn't doesn't that seem to be a perfect metaphor? Isn't there some symmetry in that? MORONES: Could you imagine if the citizens of Mexico went up to the border with guns and said, We're going to be out there watching for our countrymen? Mexico allows people to travel freely. The Mexican government is doing a lot, developing the economy of Mexico. They don't want the people to leave, contrary to a lot of the information that's let out in the media...
DOBBS: Well, that's interesting. Let me come back to that in just a minute. Ben, you wanted to say something here.
JOHNSON: Well, I just, I mean, if the parallel is fine, you know, undocumented immigrants and undocumented law enforcement personnel. But the point is that undocumented immigration is bad, something we need to try to stop. And this undocumented enforcement of immigration law is a distraction from the dialogue we need to have about how you end illegal immigration in this country.
The fact of the matter is, is, the people at the border -- I was born in Arizona, raised there, I know their frustrations. But they deserve real solutions to these problems. And this is not going to be a solution to the problem of undocumented immigration. So it's a distraction from the debate.
DOBBS: Well, could you both agree on one thing?
Could you both agree that no matter what reform we put forward in immigration in this -- in immigration policy in this country, the first thing that must be done, in the interests of national security, is absolute border security. Could you both agree with that? Ben, could you?
JOHNSON: Well, I don't think, I think the connection between terrorism and immigration is grossly overstated in most instance...
DOBBS: I'm sorry, I wasn't drawing a connection.
JOHNSON: ... so...
DOBBS: I was simply saying that any reform of immigration which would control those who come across our borders and exit the country, first, has to require absolute border security. Does it not?
JOHNSON: I agree that the goal here should be to have a safe, legal, orderly system of immigration, and that in the long run, that that will be better for our security.
DOBBS: So you agree that border security is critically important, a condition precedent before we do anything else?
JOHNSON: I think that border reform, immigration reform, will improve homeland security. Street enforcement...(ph)
DOBBS: Ah, that's a distinction, Ben.
DOBBS: What I'm really trying to get to is, would you or would you not support, as a condition precedent to immigration reform -- let's say I sign up right now for a liberalization of immigration, but that I insist that all immigration be legal.
JOHNSON: I want...
DOBBS: But the condition preceding has to be border security for the national security.
JOHNSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
DOBBS: For protection of people like all of us.
(CROSSTALK)
DOBBS: I'm sorry, Enrique, I'll give you a chance in just a moment. I'd like to hear Ben's answer.
JOHNSON: I want all immigration to be legal. That should be the norm. Immigrants should come to the United States legally, but I've heard...
DOBBS: Then you, you know you are not answering my question.
JOHNSON: I've heard you write and say before that we need to enforce the current immigration laws before we reform them. And that just doesn't make sense. If the laws are appropriate...
DOBBS: OK. You're entitled to your view. You're entitled to your view.
JOHNSON: If they don't work...
DOBBS: All I'm asking for is your view.
JOHNSON: ... then they should be fixed.
DOBBS: OK, Enrique?
JOHNSON: And the notion that we wait around until they get better is just not going to happen.
DOBBS: Enrique, it's your turn now.
MORONES: What we need to do is be working in cooperation with the neighboring countries. The Canadian border is twice as long. You can just walk right across that border.
And I think what we should be doing is building fences of -- triple, triple -- we should be building bridges of communication, and not triple fences of separation.
This issue of security and terrorism is important to everybody. Nobody wants terrorists. But the best way to do that is to be building friendships, be working together with the neighboring countries, not having the military buildup along the border. Very dangerous, civilians and also the military...
DOBBS: Isn't it more... MORONES: ... being along that border, very scary...
DOBBS: But are you saying you don't want absolute U.S. control of that border?
MORONES: I think it should be done in an intelligent and humane manner, not the way that it's being done right now.
DOBBS: Intelligent and humane.
MORONES: Thirty-two people have...
MORONES: ... 3,200 people have died in the last 10 years, 16,000...
DOBBS: Thirty-two hundred people.
MORONES: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
DOBBS: I have to tell you, I feel terrible...
MORONES: ... Operation (UNINTELLIGIBLE)-
DOBBS: ... about it. I agree with the Minuteman volunteer who said, My heart goes out to them. I understand their motives. But Enrique, let me ask you something. Three million illegal aliens crossed our border last year alone. That would be 320, the percentages are a extraordinary, against the number of people who have put themselves at risk. And surely...
MORONES: If it's illegal aliens, you should be talking to NASA. If we are talking about human beings, we should be looking at...
DOBBS: OK.
MORONES: ... an intelligent border policy...
DOBBS: All right. No, actually, I'm talking about Americans. And I think that's a critically important issue.
MORONES: Well, the Americas are a big continent.
DOBBS: I'm sorry?
MORONES: The Americas are a big continent.
DOBBS: Do you have, by the way...
MORONES: People should be working together...
DOBBS: ...Enrique, do you have Mexican citizenship and U.S. citizenship?
MORONES: I have dual nationality. I was born and raised...
DOBBS: So are you speaking here tonight... DOBBS: ... as a Mexican citizen, or a U.S. citizen?
MORONES: I'm speaking as a human being. And I think we're all the same race, the human race. And that's the way I like to address these issues.
DOBBS: I agree with you when it comes to race.
Thank you for being here.
JOHNSON: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
DOBBS: Enrique, we appreciate it.
MORONES: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Ben, thank you very much.
JOHNSON: Thank you.
DOBBS: Next, we'll be discussing what's next for the Catholic Church with a leading expert on the pontificate.
And the compelling story of an Army sergeant who gave his life to save the lives of his comrades and won the Medal of Honor. That story is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest says the Catholic Church has a wide range of critical issues before it to deal with since the death of Pope John Paul II. The pope's reign is officially over at the end of his funeral mass this Friday. His body now lies in state. Joining me now from Boston is Father John Paris, a professor of bioethics at Boston College. And we're delighted to have you back with us, father.
REV. JOHN PARIS, PROFESSOR OF BIOETHICS, BOSTON U.: Thank You, Lou.
DOBBS: The issues for the next pope are -- certainly will be in many ways similar to those that faced Pope John Paul II. At the same time this election now occurring as it does a quarter century -- more than a quarter century after Pope John Paul's selection as pontiff, what -- who do you expect to emerge as the favorite? Will we see a European pope in your judgment? Will we see a Latin American pope? Will we see an Asian or African pope?
PARIS: Woe bee tides the one who thinks he can discern what's going to happen in a conclave. No one thought we'd have a Polish pope. In great part we actually believe that the spirit is at work in this. But whoever it is going to face a lot of problems, serious and significant problems much the way John Paul did. He came in the face of communism, that was a leading issue. That issue was over, but the myriad of problems that faced the entire world, which any spiritual leader is going to have to face. The task of the next pontiff, and those we're going to have to discern. DOBBS: Those issues, what would you suggest they are?
PARIS: Well, certainly it's going to be the widening gap between the wealthy and the poverty, between rich nations and poor nations, between wealth within a nation. Within the church a very specific problem is the role of women. This pontiff with all of his strengths did not address that problem in a very direct fashion other than to say we could not have ordination of women. But precluding that, presuming from that, what is the role of women within the church? They constitute half of humanity. And they don't have a very large role in the church. AIDS, HIV/AIDS in Africa is one of the pressing moral problems of our age and the church has not really in any significant way addressed that issue. The over...
DOBBS: Lets -- sorry go ahead.
PARIS: Go ahead. And the one other is the overly authoritarian structure of the church as presently constituted. There's far, far too much centralization in Rome and not enough within the diocese in individual areas of the church.
DOBBS: Just amongst the issue that you brought up, Father Paris, that is the ordination of women. Finding a role, a greater role for women within the Catholic Church, the priests in the United States, the number dwindling. The number of older priests, a far outnumbering younger priests in the church in this country. Those critical issues, is there any particular view, any particular person of whom you're aware in the College of Cardinals whose views sort of extend to those critically important areas that would influence, of course, this country?
PARIS: Well, certainly one of those who's spoken out rather strongly on these issues is cardinal archbishop of Belgium, Cardinal Daniels. He's been very much willing to address these issues. For the most part, though, the cardinals have not been articulate in pointing out the different problems, because these have not been their issues to date. But now as they face where do we go into the 21st century, this is, indeed, the problems that they are going to have to contemplate as they select the individual who's going to lead the church in the face of all of these.
DOBBS: A daunting task for anyone chosen in the conclave. We thank you very much. Father John Paris. Thank you.
PARIS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: President Bush presents this country's highest award for bravery to the family of a U.S. army sergeant. We will have that inspiring story when we continue. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: President Bush today presented this country's highest award for valor, the Medal of Honor, to the family of a soldier killed in Iraq exactly two years ago. Sergeant First Class Paul Smith sacrificed his own life to defend his unit against a much stronger force of enemy soldiers. He is credited with saving the lives of 100 American troops. President Bush presented the Medal of Honor to Sergeant Smith's 11-year-old son David at the White House today. The president said Sergeant Smith gave his life for freedom. We'll continue in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The results of our poll tonight, 98 percent of you say the U.S. government should speed up the process of requiring the labeling of all food sold in this country with a country of origin label.
Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. The exploding illegal alien population is putting a huge strain on our natural resources as well as our economic and social resources. Our special report, "The High Cost of Illegal Immigration."
And the Senate prepares to debate giving legal stat to us half a million illegal alien agricultural workers. That story and more tomorrow, please be with us.
For all of us here, good night from New York, ANDERSON COOPER 360 is next.
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