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American Morning

Madeleine Albright Discusses Legacy of Pope John Paul II

Aired April 05, 2005 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


BISHOP PIERO MARINI, MASTER, LITURGY CELEBRATION: We have these two volumes -- the red one on the procedure. These are on the masses and then the conclave ritual and procedure.
This refers to also the masses, the procession that was held yesterday, the visits by the faithful to the Clementina Hall. These volumes contain all this information. It is, according to this text, the apostolic constitution. This is why these two texts have been published. They give the whole procedure to be followed in a case like this.

It is not only for a period of time, it gives you certain ritual services, procedures, and it is a period which concerns that period of the vacant seat of the pope and his successor.

It becomes a vacant seat with the death of the pope, awaiting the election of the new pope. His death is linked to certain services and the election is linked to the conclave.

MARINI (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Between the death of the pope and the conclave, general congregations and special congregations are held: general because it includes all cardinals. And then there are specific meetings.

The period of the vacant seat involves the death of the pope, the congregation meetings of the cardinals, and the conclave for the election of his successor.

In this period, apart from the College of Cardinals, there are other figures, like the chamberlain cardinal, the secretary of the College of Cardinals, the people who are directly involved, including various activities which are according to tradition and according to certain legislation.

The pope's have often asked for certain procedures to be followed and have written about this. In particular, we refer to the past century and to certain rules: Pius XII, Pope John XXIII. All these elements have been set according to the popes. We recall Paul VI and the period from the 28th of September to 16th of October.

There are certain general rules to be followed, which you know and will know through the apostolic letter.

MARINI (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I will summarize them briefly.

First of all, this attention to this period with so much legislation is because we have to elect the successor of the Roman pontiff, John Paul II, following the example of his predecessors, (inaudible) of the change of the church and the (inaudible) legislation after the conclave (ph).

It has established new rules regarding the vacant seat. What are these rules? The body, who has to elect...

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning from the Vatican. We've been listening and watching a press conference that began several minutes ago. Here at the Vatican, I'm Bill Hemmer. Good to have you along with us again on this Tuesday.

We're learning more details again today, although not the avalanche of information we were getting at this hour yesterday. But through that news conference, we were learning more about Vatican authority, and also some confirmation on the burial details for Pope John Paul II at the end of this week, confirming that he will be buried again in that crypt below the altar at St. Peter's Square on the floor below the main floor of the church.

Also we know cardinals have now concluded their second meeting, and at this latest meeting, we understand 92 cardinals were in attendance, which is much higher, by about a third, than the group from yesterday, which numbered 65. And also more details also of who will attend the funeral at the end of this week on Friday.

John Allen's with me again here, our Vatican analyst, high above Vatican City.

Good afternoon to you, John.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Bill.

HEMMER: They've taken their time with regard to the conclave, because there've are no details that they've given on what that will convene yet.

ALLEN: That's right. Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the Vatican spokesperson, said today that the cardinals have made no decision. I think it was striking Navarro-Valls actually said the cardinals met twice yesterday. So it was the third meeting today. And I think that speaks to the logistical complexity of putting this event together, because undoubtedly, this is going to be the greatest turnout for a papal funeral ever. We're already seeing crowds, you know, in the hundreds of thousands lining up to pay last respects to John Paul II. But I think they are therefore wanting to go very carefully to make sure that everything goes not only does it go according to the spirit of the wishes of John Paul II, but that it goes well, because they want to give him the best possible send-off.

HEMMER: More confirmation on the will that the pope left behind regarding his burial specifically. Apparently Pope John Paul II did not state where he wanted to be buried. And so by tradition, the cardinals will put him in the crypt below St. Peter's church here. However, he'll be held in an area that was vacated about five years ago. A previous pope who died in 1963, Pope John XXIII, beatified five years ago by this very pope, he will now assume his position. How significant is that, to be held in that crypt?

ALLEN: Well, John XXIII actually had one of the -- you could call sort of a prime piece of real estate in the grotto. It was one of the first crypts that a visitor would encounter coming down the stairs under the main altar. It was a spot of enormous popular devotion because John XXIII, or good Pope John, as he was known, is beloved all over the world, and especially here in Italy, is held in enormously high esteem. Therefore, John Paul II, who in some ways is perhaps the only pope of the 20th century that would rival the kind of enormous popular following that John XXIII had, will be taking that spot.

So not only is it kind of symbolically appropriate, because John Paul II, as you mentioned, Bill, was the one who beatified John XXIII, but it also makes sense in terms of just being in a place where all of those, certainly hundreds of thousands and, as time rolls by, millions of people who will want to visit that spot pray in front of it, light a candle, just spend a moment there in his presence, it's a good place for them to do that.

HEMMER: Let's broaden our discussion an talk about the people, and this will truly be the story throughout the day again today. When we left Vatican Square last night, around 10:00 in the evening, and came back this morning, the line was more than double as long as it was last night. The mourners are turning out here by the tens of thousands.

ALLEN: Bill, both you and I had time to spend with secretary John McGee, who was the private secretary of Paul VI, then John Paul I, and then for four years John Paul II, and he made this point, that this pope spent much of his pontificate on the road to meet the people, 104 trips, 129 countries, probably the single figure in human history who met by the most number of people in person. And McGee said, you know, he spent his papacy going out to them, and now they're coming to him. And there is something sort of symbolically appropriate about that. I mean, this man, who was a magnet for humanity in life, is once again a magnet for humanity in death.

HEMMER: The bishop is calling this a river of humanity, and I think that's a pretty good phrase.

ALLEN: Yes, not bad.

HEMMER: John, thanks. We'll talk again next hour above the Vatican.

What a day it was yesterday, too, to watch the transfer of the body for Pope John Paul II, and to hear the amount of appreciation, too, in the faces and voices of people who gathered here. It was quite a day, as day two of mourning yesterday wrapped up here at Vatican City.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER (voice-over): A final journey for Pope John Paul II, flanked by 12 pallbearers in the elite Swiss Guard, the pope left his Vatican home on Monday for the final home. The procession, a slow, solemn parade from the Apostolic Palace through St. Peter's Square, up the marble steps that lead into this giant church, and pausing one final time to show his body to the faithful gathered below.

The pope now lies in state, public viewing began on Monday evening. Tens of thousands paying that are final respects to Pope John Paul II. The first wave of the two million expected to file past this body before he's laid to rest, finally, on Friday.

Except for a three-hour period every day between 2:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m., the basilica stays open for mourners paying homage to the pope. British Prime Minister Tony Blair will attend the funeral, along with Prince Charles, who is pushing back his royal wedding one day. President Bush will lead the U.S. delegation, the first ever sitting U.S. president to attend a papal funeral.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Want to update one thing. Reports we're getting in the last few minutes, apparently St. Peter's only closed for one hour overnight because of the crush of people, one hour to clean things up in the church, and there's an awful lot of garbage down in Vatican City, as you can imagine, with the thousands of people that turned out here. Newspapers all over the pavement, and so, too, the empty water bottles that so many need as they wait five to eight hours in line to pay their final respects.

We are live high above the Vatican.

At this time, I want to say good morning to Soledad O'Brien back in New York City. Soledad, welcome, and good morning back there.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you. And we'll be back, of course, obviously, Bill to talk a little bit more about the Pope from Rome ahead.

Also, we're going to talk about his impact on the world of geopolitical affairs with the former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. That's ahead.

Here in the United States, though other issues to discuss. Massive flood waters in New Jersey, and Pennsylvania and New York starting to recede, revealing a vast swathe of damage. They're still under water in Yardley, Pennsylvania, where the Delaware River was at least triple its normal width. Thousands of people forced to evacuate their homes there. And in New Hope, the murky water all but swallowed the tops of those parking meters there. Power had to be cut off to many residents. Officials say this could be the worst damage there in 50 years.

On the New Jersey side of the Delaware, more of the same. The big question today, when can the thousands who evacuated go home? Amy Buckman, from our affiliate from WPVI, is in Trenton, New Jersey this morning.

Amy, good morning to you. Just how bad is it this morning?

AMY BUCKMAN, WPVI REPORTER: It's a mess here in Trenton, Soledad. And the answer to the question about when people can get back in their homes may not be until the end of this week or this weekend. If you take a look behind me, you can see Lee Avenue in the Island area of Trenton. And you can see that Lee Avenue looks a lot more like Lee lake at this point. The waters from the Delaware River, which is usually at the end of the block, are now up through the entire block here. The river crested about 2:30 yesterday afternoon, more than five feet above the floodstage, and that forced the evacuation of about 500 people who live in this area of Trenton.

The waters have started to go back down now. Right now, it's about at 22 feet, which is better, but again, still more than two feet above flood stage.

This is the same area of the city that had a similar flood back in September. So the residents just about got cleaned up from that flood and they're facing the waters again. The city hopes to get into these homes this afternoon to do some assessment, maybe start pumping out the water. But the utilities won't be back on until all these homes can be investigated and certified as safe, and then maybe the residents back in by the end of the week.

Soledad, back to you.

O'BRIEN: A long time for those folks out of their homes.

Amy Buckman, from our affiliate WPVI. Amy, thanks.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Coming up in just a moment, the pope's influence on global politics. From the war in Iraq to the downfall of the Iron Curtain, we talk to former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Pope John Paul II being remembered as someone who helped transform the world. Just how did he do it? Former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright met the pope several times. She's in Washington, D.C. this morning.

It's nice to see you, Madame Secretary. Thanks for being with us.

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FMR. SECY. OF STATE: Good to see you, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Many people have said the pope just wasn't just a leader of the church, but he was a world leader, and he sort of used the church to further his agenda of changing the world. One of his aides even said his speeches were like little time bombs -- they were intended to transform, you just never knew when he'd drop one of them. Do you think that's a fair assessment? ALBRIGHT: Well, he certainly did a lot to change the world. I can't comment on whether he used the church to do that, but basically, what he did in first in Poland in 1979, by going back as pope, and making it clear to the people about the strength that they had, was absolutely transforming. What was very interesting about that visit was that the regime agreed to it, but they didn't want to have anything to do with planning it, and so they let the local parishes do all the planning, which kind of showed them how much independent power they had.

And then you're showing pictures of these immense crowds, and those crowds were -- it's not a good English sentence -- but it showed people how many of each other there were. And so rather than living isolated lives, they saw the strength of a movement and what happened in Poland then spread throughout the former communist world. So he had a huge influence on that.

O'BRIEN: That, in and of itself, just seeing, as you say, each other, reflected was enough to fuel the solidarity movement. Why didn't it work in Cuba? When the pope went to visit Cuba, there were many expectations about a similar thing happening. And journalists, as you well know, descended to cover the pope maybe sort of chastising Fidel Castro. It didn't happen.

ALBRIGHT: No, it didn't. And I must say we were all looking forward to something like that happening. But in my analysis of it, first of all, the church in Cuba doesn't have quite the same role that it has in Poland. In Poland, the church and the nation are identified together. And in Cuba, while there were many Catholics, it didn't quite have the same effect. And also, the Pope was Polish, and not Cuban, and I think that that, frankly, made a difference. But we were hoping, very much, that there would be similar really reaction to it.

When I went to see the pope in the Vatican, that is what we talked about, was whether something more could be done about Cuba, because he so believed in freedom for people.

O'BRIEN: Do you ever see the role of the church or, specifically, the role of the pope from now onward being more involved in politics, possibly here in the United States? A role that goes beyond, well, poverty is a bad thing, we should embrace the poor and war is a bad thing, the church is against war, but more as a political role in the gay rights debate, and the abortion debate and the right- to-die debate?

ALBRIGHT: Well, there clearly is a lot of discussion about that, and not just in the Catholic Church, but among a variety of religious groups and it's very much a debate. One of the really interesting things is if you remember when John Kennedy was running for election, they were very much afraid that the pope was going to run the United States.

Obviously, that's not an issue anymore. But I do think that the role of religion and God, not just in domestic but in foreign policy, plays a larger and larger role. And that the church will play some active role in this debate, but not just the Catholic Church. Other churches, also.

O'BRIEN: The former secretary of state Madeleine Albright in Washington, D.C., this morning. It's nice to see you. Thank you very much.

ALBRIGHT: Nice to see you, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Thanks. Our special coverage continues just ahead. The baby girl said to have saved the pope from a would-be assassin, 24 years later. She reflects on her role in history. A CNN exclusive later on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. Here's some news that's not going to shock you. Gas prices keep climbing. With that and a preview of the market this morning, Gerri Willis here, in for Andy Serwer. He is off today. She's "Minding Your Business." Good morning.

GERRI WILLIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

Gas prices are up $2.22 a gallon. That's according to the federal government. They just keep rising, as crude oil futures keep rising. They topped $58 a barrel just yesterday. Those gas prices now up 44 cents a gallon compared to a year ago. It's not looking pretty.

But I got to tell you, if you compare it, inflation adjust gas prices over time, they're not even close to the all-time highs set in 1981 of $3.08 a gallon. Even so, the market does not like these numbers. The Dow has been in a four-week falling scenario, a slump. And now, we're looking at -- prices up just a little bit yesterday as traders start worrying about consumer spending and inflation.

O'BRIEN: What are you looking at this morning when the Dow opens?

WILLIS: Slightly higher, possibly. There's some indication that oil prices per barrel could ease.

O'BRIEN: All right, Gerri, we'll see. We'll be watching it. Thanks. Hello, Jack.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. What was your name again? Seems I saw you a week or so ago.

O'BRIEN: Soledad O'Brien, AMERICAN MORNING.

CAFFERTY: Yes, nice to meet you. For almost 500 years, the pope has come from Europe and except for Pope John Paul II, all have been Italians. Today's list of candidates is much more global, with cardinals from countries such as Colombia, Mexico and Brazil being mentioned as possible successors.

One of the leading candidates is Cardinal Francis Arinze, who is a Nigerian. The Catholic Church growing by leaps and bounds in the developing nations of Africa, Asia and South America. Catholics in Africa now number 136 million. That's 17 percent of the worldwide Catholic membership.

Some argue having a pope from these countries would signal to the world's poor that the Vatican is serious about leading the fight against inequality and disease. So the question is this: Is the world ready for a non-European pope, breaking with an almost 500-year tradition if it happens?

You know, the one thing you don't hear anything about is the possibility of an American pope. It's never discussed and I guess it will never happen. And I don't know the reason why.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

CAFFERTY: Just an interesting...

O'BRIEN: I think that's the case. But it's interesting, too, how, you know, the issues are so different. If you're talking about a western pope, you're talking about the abortion debate and gay rights debate, all these sort of debates. And then, of course, if you're talking about a pope from developing country, the focus becomes AIDS and disease and childhood mortality and things like that. So it's kind of interesting question.

CAFFERTY: And under John Paul II, it was all about the stuff that was written in the scriptures 2,000 years ago, period. No discussion about any of the issues you talked about, the social issues, which are on the minds of American Catholics. And there's no women priests, no discussion about changing abortion, any of that stuff, gay marriage, none of those things.

O'BRIEN: No American pope.

CAFFERTY: No, probably not.

O'BRIEN: That's what I'm thinking. All right, Jack, thanks.

Much more of our special coverage is ahead this morning. For the first time ever, a sitting president prepares to attend a papal funeral. We're going to take you live to the White House, up next on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 5, 2005 - 07:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BISHOP PIERO MARINI, MASTER, LITURGY CELEBRATION: We have these two volumes -- the red one on the procedure. These are on the masses and then the conclave ritual and procedure.
This refers to also the masses, the procession that was held yesterday, the visits by the faithful to the Clementina Hall. These volumes contain all this information. It is, according to this text, the apostolic constitution. This is why these two texts have been published. They give the whole procedure to be followed in a case like this.

It is not only for a period of time, it gives you certain ritual services, procedures, and it is a period which concerns that period of the vacant seat of the pope and his successor.

It becomes a vacant seat with the death of the pope, awaiting the election of the new pope. His death is linked to certain services and the election is linked to the conclave.

MARINI (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Between the death of the pope and the conclave, general congregations and special congregations are held: general because it includes all cardinals. And then there are specific meetings.

The period of the vacant seat involves the death of the pope, the congregation meetings of the cardinals, and the conclave for the election of his successor.

In this period, apart from the College of Cardinals, there are other figures, like the chamberlain cardinal, the secretary of the College of Cardinals, the people who are directly involved, including various activities which are according to tradition and according to certain legislation.

The pope's have often asked for certain procedures to be followed and have written about this. In particular, we refer to the past century and to certain rules: Pius XII, Pope John XXIII. All these elements have been set according to the popes. We recall Paul VI and the period from the 28th of September to 16th of October.

There are certain general rules to be followed, which you know and will know through the apostolic letter.

MARINI (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): I will summarize them briefly.

First of all, this attention to this period with so much legislation is because we have to elect the successor of the Roman pontiff, John Paul II, following the example of his predecessors, (inaudible) of the change of the church and the (inaudible) legislation after the conclave (ph).

It has established new rules regarding the vacant seat. What are these rules? The body, who has to elect...

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning from the Vatican. We've been listening and watching a press conference that began several minutes ago. Here at the Vatican, I'm Bill Hemmer. Good to have you along with us again on this Tuesday.

We're learning more details again today, although not the avalanche of information we were getting at this hour yesterday. But through that news conference, we were learning more about Vatican authority, and also some confirmation on the burial details for Pope John Paul II at the end of this week, confirming that he will be buried again in that crypt below the altar at St. Peter's Square on the floor below the main floor of the church.

Also we know cardinals have now concluded their second meeting, and at this latest meeting, we understand 92 cardinals were in attendance, which is much higher, by about a third, than the group from yesterday, which numbered 65. And also more details also of who will attend the funeral at the end of this week on Friday.

John Allen's with me again here, our Vatican analyst, high above Vatican City.

Good afternoon to you, John.

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Hi, Bill.

HEMMER: They've taken their time with regard to the conclave, because there've are no details that they've given on what that will convene yet.

ALLEN: That's right. Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, the Vatican spokesperson, said today that the cardinals have made no decision. I think it was striking Navarro-Valls actually said the cardinals met twice yesterday. So it was the third meeting today. And I think that speaks to the logistical complexity of putting this event together, because undoubtedly, this is going to be the greatest turnout for a papal funeral ever. We're already seeing crowds, you know, in the hundreds of thousands lining up to pay last respects to John Paul II. But I think they are therefore wanting to go very carefully to make sure that everything goes not only does it go according to the spirit of the wishes of John Paul II, but that it goes well, because they want to give him the best possible send-off.

HEMMER: More confirmation on the will that the pope left behind regarding his burial specifically. Apparently Pope John Paul II did not state where he wanted to be buried. And so by tradition, the cardinals will put him in the crypt below St. Peter's church here. However, he'll be held in an area that was vacated about five years ago. A previous pope who died in 1963, Pope John XXIII, beatified five years ago by this very pope, he will now assume his position. How significant is that, to be held in that crypt?

ALLEN: Well, John XXIII actually had one of the -- you could call sort of a prime piece of real estate in the grotto. It was one of the first crypts that a visitor would encounter coming down the stairs under the main altar. It was a spot of enormous popular devotion because John XXIII, or good Pope John, as he was known, is beloved all over the world, and especially here in Italy, is held in enormously high esteem. Therefore, John Paul II, who in some ways is perhaps the only pope of the 20th century that would rival the kind of enormous popular following that John XXIII had, will be taking that spot.

So not only is it kind of symbolically appropriate, because John Paul II, as you mentioned, Bill, was the one who beatified John XXIII, but it also makes sense in terms of just being in a place where all of those, certainly hundreds of thousands and, as time rolls by, millions of people who will want to visit that spot pray in front of it, light a candle, just spend a moment there in his presence, it's a good place for them to do that.

HEMMER: Let's broaden our discussion an talk about the people, and this will truly be the story throughout the day again today. When we left Vatican Square last night, around 10:00 in the evening, and came back this morning, the line was more than double as long as it was last night. The mourners are turning out here by the tens of thousands.

ALLEN: Bill, both you and I had time to spend with secretary John McGee, who was the private secretary of Paul VI, then John Paul I, and then for four years John Paul II, and he made this point, that this pope spent much of his pontificate on the road to meet the people, 104 trips, 129 countries, probably the single figure in human history who met by the most number of people in person. And McGee said, you know, he spent his papacy going out to them, and now they're coming to him. And there is something sort of symbolically appropriate about that. I mean, this man, who was a magnet for humanity in life, is once again a magnet for humanity in death.

HEMMER: The bishop is calling this a river of humanity, and I think that's a pretty good phrase.

ALLEN: Yes, not bad.

HEMMER: John, thanks. We'll talk again next hour above the Vatican.

What a day it was yesterday, too, to watch the transfer of the body for Pope John Paul II, and to hear the amount of appreciation, too, in the faces and voices of people who gathered here. It was quite a day, as day two of mourning yesterday wrapped up here at Vatican City.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER (voice-over): A final journey for Pope John Paul II, flanked by 12 pallbearers in the elite Swiss Guard, the pope left his Vatican home on Monday for the final home. The procession, a slow, solemn parade from the Apostolic Palace through St. Peter's Square, up the marble steps that lead into this giant church, and pausing one final time to show his body to the faithful gathered below.

The pope now lies in state, public viewing began on Monday evening. Tens of thousands paying that are final respects to Pope John Paul II. The first wave of the two million expected to file past this body before he's laid to rest, finally, on Friday.

Except for a three-hour period every day between 2:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m., the basilica stays open for mourners paying homage to the pope. British Prime Minister Tony Blair will attend the funeral, along with Prince Charles, who is pushing back his royal wedding one day. President Bush will lead the U.S. delegation, the first ever sitting U.S. president to attend a papal funeral.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: Want to update one thing. Reports we're getting in the last few minutes, apparently St. Peter's only closed for one hour overnight because of the crush of people, one hour to clean things up in the church, and there's an awful lot of garbage down in Vatican City, as you can imagine, with the thousands of people that turned out here. Newspapers all over the pavement, and so, too, the empty water bottles that so many need as they wait five to eight hours in line to pay their final respects.

We are live high above the Vatican.

At this time, I want to say good morning to Soledad O'Brien back in New York City. Soledad, welcome, and good morning back there.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thank you. And we'll be back, of course, obviously, Bill to talk a little bit more about the Pope from Rome ahead.

Also, we're going to talk about his impact on the world of geopolitical affairs with the former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. That's ahead.

Here in the United States, though other issues to discuss. Massive flood waters in New Jersey, and Pennsylvania and New York starting to recede, revealing a vast swathe of damage. They're still under water in Yardley, Pennsylvania, where the Delaware River was at least triple its normal width. Thousands of people forced to evacuate their homes there. And in New Hope, the murky water all but swallowed the tops of those parking meters there. Power had to be cut off to many residents. Officials say this could be the worst damage there in 50 years.

On the New Jersey side of the Delaware, more of the same. The big question today, when can the thousands who evacuated go home? Amy Buckman, from our affiliate from WPVI, is in Trenton, New Jersey this morning.

Amy, good morning to you. Just how bad is it this morning?

AMY BUCKMAN, WPVI REPORTER: It's a mess here in Trenton, Soledad. And the answer to the question about when people can get back in their homes may not be until the end of this week or this weekend. If you take a look behind me, you can see Lee Avenue in the Island area of Trenton. And you can see that Lee Avenue looks a lot more like Lee lake at this point. The waters from the Delaware River, which is usually at the end of the block, are now up through the entire block here. The river crested about 2:30 yesterday afternoon, more than five feet above the floodstage, and that forced the evacuation of about 500 people who live in this area of Trenton.

The waters have started to go back down now. Right now, it's about at 22 feet, which is better, but again, still more than two feet above flood stage.

This is the same area of the city that had a similar flood back in September. So the residents just about got cleaned up from that flood and they're facing the waters again. The city hopes to get into these homes this afternoon to do some assessment, maybe start pumping out the water. But the utilities won't be back on until all these homes can be investigated and certified as safe, and then maybe the residents back in by the end of the week.

Soledad, back to you.

O'BRIEN: A long time for those folks out of their homes.

Amy Buckman, from our affiliate WPVI. Amy, thanks.

(WEATHER REPORT)

O'BRIEN: Coming up in just a moment, the pope's influence on global politics. From the war in Iraq to the downfall of the Iron Curtain, we talk to former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Pope John Paul II being remembered as someone who helped transform the world. Just how did he do it? Former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright met the pope several times. She's in Washington, D.C. this morning.

It's nice to see you, Madame Secretary. Thanks for being with us.

MADELEINE ALBRIGHT, FMR. SECY. OF STATE: Good to see you, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Many people have said the pope just wasn't just a leader of the church, but he was a world leader, and he sort of used the church to further his agenda of changing the world. One of his aides even said his speeches were like little time bombs -- they were intended to transform, you just never knew when he'd drop one of them. Do you think that's a fair assessment? ALBRIGHT: Well, he certainly did a lot to change the world. I can't comment on whether he used the church to do that, but basically, what he did in first in Poland in 1979, by going back as pope, and making it clear to the people about the strength that they had, was absolutely transforming. What was very interesting about that visit was that the regime agreed to it, but they didn't want to have anything to do with planning it, and so they let the local parishes do all the planning, which kind of showed them how much independent power they had.

And then you're showing pictures of these immense crowds, and those crowds were -- it's not a good English sentence -- but it showed people how many of each other there were. And so rather than living isolated lives, they saw the strength of a movement and what happened in Poland then spread throughout the former communist world. So he had a huge influence on that.

O'BRIEN: That, in and of itself, just seeing, as you say, each other, reflected was enough to fuel the solidarity movement. Why didn't it work in Cuba? When the pope went to visit Cuba, there were many expectations about a similar thing happening. And journalists, as you well know, descended to cover the pope maybe sort of chastising Fidel Castro. It didn't happen.

ALBRIGHT: No, it didn't. And I must say we were all looking forward to something like that happening. But in my analysis of it, first of all, the church in Cuba doesn't have quite the same role that it has in Poland. In Poland, the church and the nation are identified together. And in Cuba, while there were many Catholics, it didn't quite have the same effect. And also, the Pope was Polish, and not Cuban, and I think that that, frankly, made a difference. But we were hoping, very much, that there would be similar really reaction to it.

When I went to see the pope in the Vatican, that is what we talked about, was whether something more could be done about Cuba, because he so believed in freedom for people.

O'BRIEN: Do you ever see the role of the church or, specifically, the role of the pope from now onward being more involved in politics, possibly here in the United States? A role that goes beyond, well, poverty is a bad thing, we should embrace the poor and war is a bad thing, the church is against war, but more as a political role in the gay rights debate, and the abortion debate and the right- to-die debate?

ALBRIGHT: Well, there clearly is a lot of discussion about that, and not just in the Catholic Church, but among a variety of religious groups and it's very much a debate. One of the really interesting things is if you remember when John Kennedy was running for election, they were very much afraid that the pope was going to run the United States.

Obviously, that's not an issue anymore. But I do think that the role of religion and God, not just in domestic but in foreign policy, plays a larger and larger role. And that the church will play some active role in this debate, but not just the Catholic Church. Other churches, also.

O'BRIEN: The former secretary of state Madeleine Albright in Washington, D.C., this morning. It's nice to see you. Thank you very much.

ALBRIGHT: Nice to see you, Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Thanks. Our special coverage continues just ahead. The baby girl said to have saved the pope from a would-be assassin, 24 years later. She reflects on her role in history. A CNN exclusive later on AMERICAN MORNING.

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O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody. Here's some news that's not going to shock you. Gas prices keep climbing. With that and a preview of the market this morning, Gerri Willis here, in for Andy Serwer. He is off today. She's "Minding Your Business." Good morning.

GERRI WILLIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Soledad.

Gas prices are up $2.22 a gallon. That's according to the federal government. They just keep rising, as crude oil futures keep rising. They topped $58 a barrel just yesterday. Those gas prices now up 44 cents a gallon compared to a year ago. It's not looking pretty.

But I got to tell you, if you compare it, inflation adjust gas prices over time, they're not even close to the all-time highs set in 1981 of $3.08 a gallon. Even so, the market does not like these numbers. The Dow has been in a four-week falling scenario, a slump. And now, we're looking at -- prices up just a little bit yesterday as traders start worrying about consumer spending and inflation.

O'BRIEN: What are you looking at this morning when the Dow opens?

WILLIS: Slightly higher, possibly. There's some indication that oil prices per barrel could ease.

O'BRIEN: All right, Gerri, we'll see. We'll be watching it. Thanks. Hello, Jack.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Hi there. What was your name again? Seems I saw you a week or so ago.

O'BRIEN: Soledad O'Brien, AMERICAN MORNING.

CAFFERTY: Yes, nice to meet you. For almost 500 years, the pope has come from Europe and except for Pope John Paul II, all have been Italians. Today's list of candidates is much more global, with cardinals from countries such as Colombia, Mexico and Brazil being mentioned as possible successors.

One of the leading candidates is Cardinal Francis Arinze, who is a Nigerian. The Catholic Church growing by leaps and bounds in the developing nations of Africa, Asia and South America. Catholics in Africa now number 136 million. That's 17 percent of the worldwide Catholic membership.

Some argue having a pope from these countries would signal to the world's poor that the Vatican is serious about leading the fight against inequality and disease. So the question is this: Is the world ready for a non-European pope, breaking with an almost 500-year tradition if it happens?

You know, the one thing you don't hear anything about is the possibility of an American pope. It's never discussed and I guess it will never happen. And I don't know the reason why.

O'BRIEN: Yes.

CAFFERTY: Just an interesting...

O'BRIEN: I think that's the case. But it's interesting, too, how, you know, the issues are so different. If you're talking about a western pope, you're talking about the abortion debate and gay rights debate, all these sort of debates. And then, of course, if you're talking about a pope from developing country, the focus becomes AIDS and disease and childhood mortality and things like that. So it's kind of interesting question.

CAFFERTY: And under John Paul II, it was all about the stuff that was written in the scriptures 2,000 years ago, period. No discussion about any of the issues you talked about, the social issues, which are on the minds of American Catholics. And there's no women priests, no discussion about changing abortion, any of that stuff, gay marriage, none of those things.

O'BRIEN: No American pope.

CAFFERTY: No, probably not.

O'BRIEN: That's what I'm thinking. All right, Jack, thanks.

Much more of our special coverage is ahead this morning. For the first time ever, a sitting president prepares to attend a papal funeral. We're going to take you live to the White House, up next on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

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