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Crowd at St. Peter's Square Steadily Growing; Jurors in Michael Jackson Trial Hearing New Accusations of Abuse

Aired April 05, 2005 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Soledad O'Brien, reporting from New York today. Bill Hemmer is in Rome for us.
Hi, Bill.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Soledad.

And welcome back as our coverage continues here. These lines are truly extraordinary. We've been talking about them throughout the morning, but also we want to make mention of what we can anticipate now toward the end of this week. The Vatican expects a crowd that will be larger than any in history, and the Vatican certainly has never seen anything like this before.

Diana Muriel has on the street today, talking with people, and getting ready for the funeral, what we can anticipate a bit later in the week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Monday morning, and the crowd at St. Peter's Square steadily growing, stretching back for more than a mile. They come from all over the country, all over the world, Polish, Canadian Annette Boguslawski.

ANNETTE BOGUSLAWSKI, POLISH-CANADIAN PILGRIM: We've been here for I would say a little bit over two hours, and it feels like its been a few minutes.

MURIEL: This Argentian nun waiting in line since 7:00.

SISTER CONSOLATA, ARGENTINIAN PILGRIM: Even though everyone has to wait for hours, nobody minds.

MURIEL: The wait may be long, but when the line moves, you've got to keep up. By 10:00 a.m., it's starting to get hot. The authorities hand out bottles of water to those in the crowd, keeping the mood calm, but humored.

(on camera): And still they come in their tens of thousands. The long wait almost a penance for some of these pilgrims, here to say goodbye to their pope.

(voice-over): More than two million, maybe as many as four million are expected over the next few days, proving a headache for the authorities. Streets are barricaded, extra police bust in to manage the crowds. Three shuttle buses, two taking the pilgrims from the city's train station to the center of town. Free accommodations also at newly erected tent cities. As Rome's hotels fill up and put up their prices, a makeshift dormitory has also been established in an exhibition hall.

DIEDER HELSEN, BELGIAN PILGRIM: We don't have enough money to stay in an expensive hotels, so we heard there were cheap accommodation, or free accommodation.

MURIEL: It's basic, but according to this Italian girl, that's all part of the experience.

GAIA ALDI, ITALIAN PILGRIM: Because if we choose a hotel or something there, it was just a trip in Rome. In this way, we stay here to pray is the best thing that we can do now.

MURIEL: So a spiritual experience then for many on this final pilgrimage for their pope.

Diana Muriel, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: And one only knows, and only can guess at this point, really how many more people will come and stream in and wait here. This crowd has more than doubled since we left it last night, and they still come here today.

Robert Moynihan is the editor of "Inside the Vatican." He was with us earlier in the week, flying here to Rome, Italy.

Nice to see you again.

ROBERT MOYNIHAN, EDITOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN": Thanks.

HEMMER: And good afternoon.

You made a comment right before we came on the air. You said, you know, some non-Catholics might be getting sick of all of this coverage. But then again you compare this to, like, a Hajj, like you'd see to Mecca. Relate that for us today.

MOYNIHAN: Well, we have millions of people expected to come here. We've got crowds that are so dense that it's impossible to -- almost impossible to believe. I was thinking CNN and the other networks have been covering this 24 hours a day. Some people in America may be saying, it's a lot of coverage for a Catholic event, but this is a human event, and they could relate to it perhaps. If you're Muslim, this is like a Hajj; people are coming to a sacred space, a sacred spot, the basilica of St. Peter, to see the body of the pope. Just as on the pilgrimage to Mecca, they feel it's a sacred space, they want to be near it. These people have that feeling. And in Jewish tradition, to go up to Jerusalem actually each year to be near the holy of holies, it's a question of holiness and the desire of human beings to transcend our everyday lives into something more. HEMMER: I think when you listen to the Vatican talk about the crowds they expected and then to actually to see them materialize here has been extraordinary.

Let's talk about the next pope and let's talk about the cardinals. We are hearing from some that they are looking for a man who has joy to lead this church.

MOYNIHAN: Yes.

HEMMER: Can you define that better for us? Who has joy? And how do you see it?

MOYNIHAN: Well, there's a couple of men that have it, but it means people have an optimistic attitude, who aren't negative, who look at life as a blessing and a gift, and somehow can attract people and propose to people rather than condemn people and bring them down.

And in this regard, one man, and I hate to talk about cardinals, because in a way, as everyone knows...

HEMMER: You go in a pope and come out a cardinal, the kiss of death.

MOYNIHAN: Yes, so I don't want to do that. It's like the poison -- it's like a Snow White story, the poisoned apple. If I bring it up, am I trying to stop him, you know, or if another person brings up the cardinal...

HEMMER: So do you care to venture into that area?

MOYNIHAN: I would just say that it's not impossible that they would choose an African, and there's a wonderful man that I know personally, Cardinal Arinze, from Nigeria. He speaks English, and some people think a cardinal should speak English well in the next pontificate because of the role of the English language, and he's joyful, and he's knowledgeable, and Cardinal Diaz of Bombay is that way.

And so if people around the world are wondering if the Catholic Church is going to go right back to an Italian, I would say they should keep their eyes open; there may be a surprise.

HEMMER: One more thing, we don't have time to get to it, but we talked earlier about this. Of all of the people who have been invited here and accepted invitations, the leader of the Russian Orthodox Church has not decided yet whether he will or will not attend, and that could be significant, when you look at the pope and the way he reached out to the Greek orthodox and tried to reach out to the Russians, too. He was rebuffed at every turn of that effort.

MOYNIHAN: Yes, I would say the weather is beautiful, and it's still cold up in Russia. If Patriach Alexei (ph) would come, it would astonish us. Maybe he's healthy enough, but it would be remarkable.

HEMMER: Well, the invitation's still out there. Robert, thanks. Robert Moynihan, we'll speak again.

No date for the conclave set just yet. But if you look at the calendar and you look at church law, it's going to take someplace between the 17th of April and the 22nd of April, based on the best guesses we can make here today.

Soledad, back to you now.

O'BRIEN: All right, Bill, thanks. We'll get back to you in just a few moments, but first another check of the headlines with Carol Costello.

Good morning again.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Good morning to all of you.

Now in the news, a shootout between Iraqi insurgents and American and Iraqi troops. The U.S. military says the battle was ongoing in a remote area northeast of Baghdad. At least two American soldiers and one Iraqi soldier were killed.

In the meantime, two car bombs exploded around the same time in separate cities, killing at least two people, including one U.S. soldier.

Thousands of people in New Jersey and Pennsylvania are waiting to return to their homes, evacuated from their homes over the weekend. Damage from flooding in parts of New Jersey is expected to top $30 million. An assessment of the flood aftermath in eastern Pennsylvania is just beginning. Officials expect damage to be worse than after Hurricane Ivan last year.

And I don't need to tell you this, record gas prices are making life tough for you. The average prices at the pump zoomed to $2.20 a gallon. That's up almost a penny a day over the past five weeks. A new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows the rising costs are a financial burden for more than half of the Americans polled. That's up almost 10 percent from last year.

And jurors in the Michael Jackson trial are hearing new accusations of abuse from the son of a former Jackson maid. As CNN's Miguel Marquez tells us, the testimony could have a powerful effect on the jurors.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No answers from Michael Jackson after the most emotional testimony so far in his trial. A past accuser said that he, too, was molested by the pop star.

JIM HAMMER, LEGAL ANALYST: I thought he came across as one of the most powerful witnesses I've ever seen. To break down in tears as he recalled these incidents from 14 years ago I think gives a real poignancy to it and a real power to it. MARQUEZ: The young man, now 24 years old, said that when he was 7, 8 and 10 Jackson fondled him. The witness cried and asked the judge if he could take a break as he described how playfulness with the pop star morphed into molestation.

HAMMER: As a matter of law, the jury simply has to believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Michael Jackson molested the current accuser. This witness can help them do that if they believe him.

MARQUEZ: This accuser, the son of a former Jackson maid, testified that on two occasions Jackson started off tickling him, then touched him inappropriately over his clothing. On a third occasion the man testified that Jackson lay closely behind him -- quote -- "spooning him and fondled his testicles."

HAMMER: If they believe this account, this prior alleged incident of child molestation, they can literally look at Michael Jackson, say there's a man likely to molest children. It's that powerful.

MARQUEZ: Under cross-examination, the 24-year-old testified that his family reached an out-of-court settlement with Jackson. CNN previously reported that the accuser's family received more than $2 million from the pop star.

(on camera): During the accuser's testimony, Jackson took notes, sat upright and consulted with his lawyer often. Jurors listened intently, taking notes almost the entire time. This accuser will continue being cross-examined when court resumes.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, Santa Maria, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And, again, that 24-year-old accuser returns to the stand today. Court is expected to resume in just about two hours now.

Now back to Rome and Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Carol. Thanks.

The Italians call him Il Papa, and down the line down there, every so often you can hear them shout out "Giovanni Palo," which means John Paul, and then a ripple of applause goes through the crowd of mourners there, gathered to pay their final respects. Tradition dictates at Italian funerals that applause are quite common to honor the life of those deceased, and they have shown honor again for the past several days here.

However, this history between the Vatican and relationship with the Italian people has not always been so rosy.

John Allen, our Vatican analyst, is back here with us to talk about this history. Where did the -- I guess the relationship between these two wonderful Italian entities begin and then pretty much go their separate ways for awhile? JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes, I think you could almost characterize it, Bill, as sort of a love/hate relationship. You remember that in -- for several centuries, the pope was not just a spiritual figure, he was the secular ruler of central Italy, or called the papal states. And when you rule a country for that long, I mean, inevitably, an opposition party develops. There was always opposition to the pope's rule, people who resented what was seen as the power and privilege of the papacy and so forth.

Italy only became a unified country in 1870 and that actually had to be accomplished -- the last domino to fall, so to speak, was the pope's army, when the Italians, under the leadership of Giuseppe Garibaldi (ph) and the great heroes of the Italian republic actually breached the papal walls that were around Rome and declared Rome the capital of this new unified country.

And from 1870 to 1929, the popes locked themselves up in the Apostolic Palace and declared themselves prisoners of the Vatican, refusing to recognize the new Italian state. So there's always been -- I think Italians have a marvelous capacity for distinguishing between the faith and the church. And, you know, there's an overwhelmingly Catholic ethos in this country, but that doesn't mean there isn't also a healthy anti-clericism, a kind of resentment of the church that runs alongside it.

I think the striking thing, Bill, about this pope is that none of that seemed to apply. I mean, in other words, you know, the Romans and the Italians embraced this pope from the very beginning, and when he was elected, of course, there was a fear that that might not be the case. The first non-Italian pope in 450 years, you know, would he know the people, would he know the culture, you know, would they be cool to him?

I think what happened is that precisely because he was an outsider to the Italian clerical culture and all of that history, he was sort of given a free pass. I mean, he was a breath of fresh air.

HEMMER: Well, what did they say when he first came out? He said -- and he spoke in Italian, right? That day on October 22nd, 1978, and he said, listen, I can speak some Italian, but if I'm wrong, I'm certain you will correct me.

ALLEN: It was even better than that. When he came out under the (INAUDIBLE), he said, I'm going to speak -- no, no, no, in our language, and if I make a mistake, you'll correct me. And then there's a roar from that crowd. I mean, the embrace of this pope was almost immediate. And it's been continual. And of course, you know, you don't need me to tell you that you can look over to your shoulder to that stream of what is today, almost entirely an Italian crowd coming from all over the peninsula.

HEMMER: I've got one more thing here that I want to bring back with you. Cardinal Mahoney (ph) was telling us about them going through right now. These books that Pope John Paul II wrote about nine years ago, 1996, and it had all to do with a transition of power from one pope, him at the time, to the next. ALLEN: Yes, the licheral (ph) writing is what we're talking about. These are the two books that the cardinals within these meetings of the general congregation everyday are working through. These are not actually John Paul's documents. These are elaboration of those documents, spelling out all the details. This is the book for the funeral rites and the memorials for the pope. And this is the book that sets out the rules and procedure for the conclave.

Now you remember Cardinal Mahoney (ph) was talking about how they're going through line by line. If you just look at how thick these books are, that will tell you why it's taking a bit of time inside those meetings to settle the fine points that you and I would like to have immediately.

HEMMER: Thank you, John. We could talk all day.

ALLEN: Absolutely.

HEMMER: I really enjoy it. Thanks, John.

Let's get a break here. Back to Rome in a moment as our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Prince Charles will attend the pope's funeral on Friday on behalf of his mother, Queen Elizabeth. The queen believes her going could interfere with her role as head of the Church of England. Prince Charles and his longtime mistress Camilla Parker Bowles attended a memorial service for the pope on Monday at Westminster Abbey. Earlier in the day, the couple delayed their wedding from Friday until Saturday and this morning, they announced it will take place, in fact, at 12:30 Eastern time.

Robert Jobson is with "The Evening Standard." He broke the news of Charles and Camilla's pending nuptials. He's live in London for us this morning. Nice to see you again, Robert. Thanks for being with us.

Kind of strange, a couple of days ago, when the palace was so adamant that, in fact, the plans for the wedding would not be changing. I'm sort of paraphrasing here, but they said, essentially, we're aware of the events, we understand the sensitivity. What was the fallout from that?

ROBERT JOBSON, "EVENING STANDARD": Well, at the time, I think Prince Charles was away in Switzerland, skiing with his sons. I don't think that you, when you're away on holiday, you realize the significance of world events such as the death of Pope John Paul II, and it wasn't until he was on his return flight from Switzerland to London that the decision was made to change the plans of the wedding after consulting Camilla Parker Bowles and obviously attend the funeral, as was always the way it should have been, for Prince Charles to represent the queen.

The queen really doesn't do funerals. It's not as if this has any particular thing to do with the Church of England or anything like that. She doesn't really attend funerals. Otherwise, the head of state should be doing that most of the time, I think.

O'BRIEN: The prince, as you mentioned, had been skiing and, in fact, that trip itself was kind of a mess. You attended it. I want to play a little chunk of what was caught on tape when the prince didn't realize, even though he was wearing his mic, that people could pick up what he was saying. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: ... to the wedding. Can I ask you how you are feeling?

PRINCE CHARLES: It's a very nice thought, isn't it? I'm very glad you heard of it anyway. Bloody -- I can't bear them. Really.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Those bloody people, I can't bear them, is what I heard him say. Not very nice. Kind of forgot, even though he was in the middle of a news conference, that everybody can pick up every little word he's saying. How was that trip? What was the fallout from that trip?

DOBSON: Well, essentially, it's a private holiday and they do stress that. The reality is, though, since the death of the Princess of Wales, there's always been a photo call and sort of mini press conference at Klosters. I think he was particularly annoyed with BBC correspondent Nicholas Witchell for some reason. They've had a falling out in the past and I think he said bloody people, I can't bear that man. A bit much, really.

I think for the BBC, really, because they are the -- if you like, the state broadcaster over here and I think the Prince of Wales was fully aware that he had microphones in front of him, but clearly he didn't realize that they pick up so clearly. A bit amateur really, because certainly he had two senior public relations executives with him on that trip and they had obviously supervised the placing the microphones. But you know, hey, things happen like this.

O'BRIEN: You know, and technology today, you can pick up pretty much anything. You know, this is really just one -- I mean, they've only been engaged since February and there's been a litany of just bumbles and missteps and mistakes along the way. The most recent of which is Mrs. Parker Bowles not attending the funeral, right, because of protocol issues?

DOBSON: Well, I think on this one, it's right that Mrs. Parker Bowles is not married to prince yet. I think it would cause all sorts of problems. After all, she is a divorcee, he's a divorcee. There's a bit of a cafoffle (ph) about all of that anyway. So it's easier for the prince to go on his own, as has always been -- has always intended to be the case.

But yes, since I broke the story, they've sort of been bounced into making all sorts of errors. The first one, of course, the biggest one, was when they were going to have it at Windsor Castle privately, and then on to the service dedication at St. George's Chapel, but then they realized by doing so, anybody could get married, according to civil law, at the Windsor Castle for three years, which obviously they didn't want to happen. They had to shift it to the local townhall, the Guild (ph) Hall in Windsor, so how embarrassing really, but there we are.

O'BRIEN: Series of little bits of messes. The wedding, though, is supposed to go off Saturday. Robert Jobson of "The Evening Standard" in London this morning. Thanks, Robert. Nice to see you, as always.

A quick check of the markets is straight ahead this morning. We're "Minding Your Business" on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: Here's kind of a strange business strategy: A popular retailer wants to capitalize on its jailbird founder. With that and a check of the markets this morning, Gerri Willis is "Minding Your Business."

Andy has got the day off. Good morning.

Who are we talking about this time around?

GERRI WILLIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've got Steve Madden, of all people. You know, he went to jail, federal prison, for several months, 41 to be exact, for stock fraud. Guess what? Now he's going to get out this spring, and the company is using it as a basis for an ad campaign. That's right. You heard before maybe from Martha Stewart, that the company would talk about it publicly. They used to never do this. But now you're seeing ads like this. Another one out, you'll love, this, Soledad, a new meaning for the word springtime. A little double entendre on there.

O'BRIEN: There he is, cuffed, heading off to...

WILLIS: Right, nobody cares; you know, it's like a badge of honor. As one ad guy put it, it's in to be out, out of prison, that is.

O'BRIEN: I don't know. I think that could be a strategy that backfires, don't you think?

WILLIS: It could ultimately, but so far it seems to be working for people. No one seems to care.

Want to talk about the markets briefly here, headed higher. As we saw a retreat from record oil prices fueling a rally here. The Dow is up almost 38 points, and we'll see if it lasts for the day.

O'BRIEN: We will. All right, Gerri, thanks. We'll talk about it later. Thank you very much.

Jack, Question of the Day?

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, is the world ready for a non- European pope is the thing we've been working with this morning.

Steve McFord (ph) writes, "The rest of the world may be ready for a non-European pope. There is much to apologize for in the third world and the wealthier Latin-American nations."

Kevin in Massachusetts, "New popes should always come from a country that has big trouble with religious freedom. Are there any Catholics in Saudi Arabia? Not many, I suspect."

Jeffrey in New Mexico writes, "From a purely business standpoint, an American pope is definitely needed in order to save from the exodus from Catholicism in America. There's more than 'The Da Vinci Code' to worry about.

O'BRIEN: If you look at the actual, the number of Catholics is growing, it's not declining. It's the number of American clergy that's going way down, and sharply, but the number of actual Catholics attending mass going up. I thought that was sort of strange.

Thank you, Jack.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIS: ... billion dollars from Americans alone.

O'BRIEN: Yes, exactly.

WILLIS: Some numbers look good.

O'BRIEN: Thank you, Jack. Thank you, Gerri.

Coming up this morning, a sportsman, a philosopher and a poet. You're going to get a chance to hear some of the special writings of John Paul II in our next hour. That's with Rick and Daryn on "CNN LIVE TODAY." AMERICAN MORNING is back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 5, 2005 - 09:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Soledad O'Brien, reporting from New York today. Bill Hemmer is in Rome for us.
Hi, Bill.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Hey, Soledad.

And welcome back as our coverage continues here. These lines are truly extraordinary. We've been talking about them throughout the morning, but also we want to make mention of what we can anticipate now toward the end of this week. The Vatican expects a crowd that will be larger than any in history, and the Vatican certainly has never seen anything like this before.

Diana Muriel has on the street today, talking with people, and getting ready for the funeral, what we can anticipate a bit later in the week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Monday morning, and the crowd at St. Peter's Square steadily growing, stretching back for more than a mile. They come from all over the country, all over the world, Polish, Canadian Annette Boguslawski.

ANNETTE BOGUSLAWSKI, POLISH-CANADIAN PILGRIM: We've been here for I would say a little bit over two hours, and it feels like its been a few minutes.

MURIEL: This Argentian nun waiting in line since 7:00.

SISTER CONSOLATA, ARGENTINIAN PILGRIM: Even though everyone has to wait for hours, nobody minds.

MURIEL: The wait may be long, but when the line moves, you've got to keep up. By 10:00 a.m., it's starting to get hot. The authorities hand out bottles of water to those in the crowd, keeping the mood calm, but humored.

(on camera): And still they come in their tens of thousands. The long wait almost a penance for some of these pilgrims, here to say goodbye to their pope.

(voice-over): More than two million, maybe as many as four million are expected over the next few days, proving a headache for the authorities. Streets are barricaded, extra police bust in to manage the crowds. Three shuttle buses, two taking the pilgrims from the city's train station to the center of town. Free accommodations also at newly erected tent cities. As Rome's hotels fill up and put up their prices, a makeshift dormitory has also been established in an exhibition hall.

DIEDER HELSEN, BELGIAN PILGRIM: We don't have enough money to stay in an expensive hotels, so we heard there were cheap accommodation, or free accommodation.

MURIEL: It's basic, but according to this Italian girl, that's all part of the experience.

GAIA ALDI, ITALIAN PILGRIM: Because if we choose a hotel or something there, it was just a trip in Rome. In this way, we stay here to pray is the best thing that we can do now.

MURIEL: So a spiritual experience then for many on this final pilgrimage for their pope.

Diana Muriel, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HEMMER: And one only knows, and only can guess at this point, really how many more people will come and stream in and wait here. This crowd has more than doubled since we left it last night, and they still come here today.

Robert Moynihan is the editor of "Inside the Vatican." He was with us earlier in the week, flying here to Rome, Italy.

Nice to see you again.

ROBERT MOYNIHAN, EDITOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN": Thanks.

HEMMER: And good afternoon.

You made a comment right before we came on the air. You said, you know, some non-Catholics might be getting sick of all of this coverage. But then again you compare this to, like, a Hajj, like you'd see to Mecca. Relate that for us today.

MOYNIHAN: Well, we have millions of people expected to come here. We've got crowds that are so dense that it's impossible to -- almost impossible to believe. I was thinking CNN and the other networks have been covering this 24 hours a day. Some people in America may be saying, it's a lot of coverage for a Catholic event, but this is a human event, and they could relate to it perhaps. If you're Muslim, this is like a Hajj; people are coming to a sacred space, a sacred spot, the basilica of St. Peter, to see the body of the pope. Just as on the pilgrimage to Mecca, they feel it's a sacred space, they want to be near it. These people have that feeling. And in Jewish tradition, to go up to Jerusalem actually each year to be near the holy of holies, it's a question of holiness and the desire of human beings to transcend our everyday lives into something more. HEMMER: I think when you listen to the Vatican talk about the crowds they expected and then to actually to see them materialize here has been extraordinary.

Let's talk about the next pope and let's talk about the cardinals. We are hearing from some that they are looking for a man who has joy to lead this church.

MOYNIHAN: Yes.

HEMMER: Can you define that better for us? Who has joy? And how do you see it?

MOYNIHAN: Well, there's a couple of men that have it, but it means people have an optimistic attitude, who aren't negative, who look at life as a blessing and a gift, and somehow can attract people and propose to people rather than condemn people and bring them down.

And in this regard, one man, and I hate to talk about cardinals, because in a way, as everyone knows...

HEMMER: You go in a pope and come out a cardinal, the kiss of death.

MOYNIHAN: Yes, so I don't want to do that. It's like the poison -- it's like a Snow White story, the poisoned apple. If I bring it up, am I trying to stop him, you know, or if another person brings up the cardinal...

HEMMER: So do you care to venture into that area?

MOYNIHAN: I would just say that it's not impossible that they would choose an African, and there's a wonderful man that I know personally, Cardinal Arinze, from Nigeria. He speaks English, and some people think a cardinal should speak English well in the next pontificate because of the role of the English language, and he's joyful, and he's knowledgeable, and Cardinal Diaz of Bombay is that way.

And so if people around the world are wondering if the Catholic Church is going to go right back to an Italian, I would say they should keep their eyes open; there may be a surprise.

HEMMER: One more thing, we don't have time to get to it, but we talked earlier about this. Of all of the people who have been invited here and accepted invitations, the leader of the Russian Orthodox Church has not decided yet whether he will or will not attend, and that could be significant, when you look at the pope and the way he reached out to the Greek orthodox and tried to reach out to the Russians, too. He was rebuffed at every turn of that effort.

MOYNIHAN: Yes, I would say the weather is beautiful, and it's still cold up in Russia. If Patriach Alexei (ph) would come, it would astonish us. Maybe he's healthy enough, but it would be remarkable.

HEMMER: Well, the invitation's still out there. Robert, thanks. Robert Moynihan, we'll speak again.

No date for the conclave set just yet. But if you look at the calendar and you look at church law, it's going to take someplace between the 17th of April and the 22nd of April, based on the best guesses we can make here today.

Soledad, back to you now.

O'BRIEN: All right, Bill, thanks. We'll get back to you in just a few moments, but first another check of the headlines with Carol Costello.

Good morning again.

CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning. Good morning to all of you.

Now in the news, a shootout between Iraqi insurgents and American and Iraqi troops. The U.S. military says the battle was ongoing in a remote area northeast of Baghdad. At least two American soldiers and one Iraqi soldier were killed.

In the meantime, two car bombs exploded around the same time in separate cities, killing at least two people, including one U.S. soldier.

Thousands of people in New Jersey and Pennsylvania are waiting to return to their homes, evacuated from their homes over the weekend. Damage from flooding in parts of New Jersey is expected to top $30 million. An assessment of the flood aftermath in eastern Pennsylvania is just beginning. Officials expect damage to be worse than after Hurricane Ivan last year.

And I don't need to tell you this, record gas prices are making life tough for you. The average prices at the pump zoomed to $2.20 a gallon. That's up almost a penny a day over the past five weeks. A new CNN/"USA Today"/Gallup poll shows the rising costs are a financial burden for more than half of the Americans polled. That's up almost 10 percent from last year.

And jurors in the Michael Jackson trial are hearing new accusations of abuse from the son of a former Jackson maid. As CNN's Miguel Marquez tells us, the testimony could have a powerful effect on the jurors.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No answers from Michael Jackson after the most emotional testimony so far in his trial. A past accuser said that he, too, was molested by the pop star.

JIM HAMMER, LEGAL ANALYST: I thought he came across as one of the most powerful witnesses I've ever seen. To break down in tears as he recalled these incidents from 14 years ago I think gives a real poignancy to it and a real power to it. MARQUEZ: The young man, now 24 years old, said that when he was 7, 8 and 10 Jackson fondled him. The witness cried and asked the judge if he could take a break as he described how playfulness with the pop star morphed into molestation.

HAMMER: As a matter of law, the jury simply has to believe beyond a reasonable doubt that Michael Jackson molested the current accuser. This witness can help them do that if they believe him.

MARQUEZ: This accuser, the son of a former Jackson maid, testified that on two occasions Jackson started off tickling him, then touched him inappropriately over his clothing. On a third occasion the man testified that Jackson lay closely behind him -- quote -- "spooning him and fondled his testicles."

HAMMER: If they believe this account, this prior alleged incident of child molestation, they can literally look at Michael Jackson, say there's a man likely to molest children. It's that powerful.

MARQUEZ: Under cross-examination, the 24-year-old testified that his family reached an out-of-court settlement with Jackson. CNN previously reported that the accuser's family received more than $2 million from the pop star.

(on camera): During the accuser's testimony, Jackson took notes, sat upright and consulted with his lawyer often. Jurors listened intently, taking notes almost the entire time. This accuser will continue being cross-examined when court resumes.

Miguel Marquez, CNN, Santa Maria, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSTELLO: And, again, that 24-year-old accuser returns to the stand today. Court is expected to resume in just about two hours now.

Now back to Rome and Bill.

HEMMER: All right, Carol. Thanks.

The Italians call him Il Papa, and down the line down there, every so often you can hear them shout out "Giovanni Palo," which means John Paul, and then a ripple of applause goes through the crowd of mourners there, gathered to pay their final respects. Tradition dictates at Italian funerals that applause are quite common to honor the life of those deceased, and they have shown honor again for the past several days here.

However, this history between the Vatican and relationship with the Italian people has not always been so rosy.

John Allen, our Vatican analyst, is back here with us to talk about this history. Where did the -- I guess the relationship between these two wonderful Italian entities begin and then pretty much go their separate ways for awhile? JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes, I think you could almost characterize it, Bill, as sort of a love/hate relationship. You remember that in -- for several centuries, the pope was not just a spiritual figure, he was the secular ruler of central Italy, or called the papal states. And when you rule a country for that long, I mean, inevitably, an opposition party develops. There was always opposition to the pope's rule, people who resented what was seen as the power and privilege of the papacy and so forth.

Italy only became a unified country in 1870 and that actually had to be accomplished -- the last domino to fall, so to speak, was the pope's army, when the Italians, under the leadership of Giuseppe Garibaldi (ph) and the great heroes of the Italian republic actually breached the papal walls that were around Rome and declared Rome the capital of this new unified country.

And from 1870 to 1929, the popes locked themselves up in the Apostolic Palace and declared themselves prisoners of the Vatican, refusing to recognize the new Italian state. So there's always been -- I think Italians have a marvelous capacity for distinguishing between the faith and the church. And, you know, there's an overwhelmingly Catholic ethos in this country, but that doesn't mean there isn't also a healthy anti-clericism, a kind of resentment of the church that runs alongside it.

I think the striking thing, Bill, about this pope is that none of that seemed to apply. I mean, in other words, you know, the Romans and the Italians embraced this pope from the very beginning, and when he was elected, of course, there was a fear that that might not be the case. The first non-Italian pope in 450 years, you know, would he know the people, would he know the culture, you know, would they be cool to him?

I think what happened is that precisely because he was an outsider to the Italian clerical culture and all of that history, he was sort of given a free pass. I mean, he was a breath of fresh air.

HEMMER: Well, what did they say when he first came out? He said -- and he spoke in Italian, right? That day on October 22nd, 1978, and he said, listen, I can speak some Italian, but if I'm wrong, I'm certain you will correct me.

ALLEN: It was even better than that. When he came out under the (INAUDIBLE), he said, I'm going to speak -- no, no, no, in our language, and if I make a mistake, you'll correct me. And then there's a roar from that crowd. I mean, the embrace of this pope was almost immediate. And it's been continual. And of course, you know, you don't need me to tell you that you can look over to your shoulder to that stream of what is today, almost entirely an Italian crowd coming from all over the peninsula.

HEMMER: I've got one more thing here that I want to bring back with you. Cardinal Mahoney (ph) was telling us about them going through right now. These books that Pope John Paul II wrote about nine years ago, 1996, and it had all to do with a transition of power from one pope, him at the time, to the next. ALLEN: Yes, the licheral (ph) writing is what we're talking about. These are the two books that the cardinals within these meetings of the general congregation everyday are working through. These are not actually John Paul's documents. These are elaboration of those documents, spelling out all the details. This is the book for the funeral rites and the memorials for the pope. And this is the book that sets out the rules and procedure for the conclave.

Now you remember Cardinal Mahoney (ph) was talking about how they're going through line by line. If you just look at how thick these books are, that will tell you why it's taking a bit of time inside those meetings to settle the fine points that you and I would like to have immediately.

HEMMER: Thank you, John. We could talk all day.

ALLEN: Absolutely.

HEMMER: I really enjoy it. Thanks, John.

Let's get a break here. Back to Rome in a moment as our coverage continues.

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O'BRIEN: Prince Charles will attend the pope's funeral on Friday on behalf of his mother, Queen Elizabeth. The queen believes her going could interfere with her role as head of the Church of England. Prince Charles and his longtime mistress Camilla Parker Bowles attended a memorial service for the pope on Monday at Westminster Abbey. Earlier in the day, the couple delayed their wedding from Friday until Saturday and this morning, they announced it will take place, in fact, at 12:30 Eastern time.

Robert Jobson is with "The Evening Standard." He broke the news of Charles and Camilla's pending nuptials. He's live in London for us this morning. Nice to see you again, Robert. Thanks for being with us.

Kind of strange, a couple of days ago, when the palace was so adamant that, in fact, the plans for the wedding would not be changing. I'm sort of paraphrasing here, but they said, essentially, we're aware of the events, we understand the sensitivity. What was the fallout from that?

ROBERT JOBSON, "EVENING STANDARD": Well, at the time, I think Prince Charles was away in Switzerland, skiing with his sons. I don't think that you, when you're away on holiday, you realize the significance of world events such as the death of Pope John Paul II, and it wasn't until he was on his return flight from Switzerland to London that the decision was made to change the plans of the wedding after consulting Camilla Parker Bowles and obviously attend the funeral, as was always the way it should have been, for Prince Charles to represent the queen.

The queen really doesn't do funerals. It's not as if this has any particular thing to do with the Church of England or anything like that. She doesn't really attend funerals. Otherwise, the head of state should be doing that most of the time, I think.

O'BRIEN: The prince, as you mentioned, had been skiing and, in fact, that trip itself was kind of a mess. You attended it. I want to play a little chunk of what was caught on tape when the prince didn't realize, even though he was wearing his mic, that people could pick up what he was saying. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: ... to the wedding. Can I ask you how you are feeling?

PRINCE CHARLES: It's a very nice thought, isn't it? I'm very glad you heard of it anyway. Bloody -- I can't bear them. Really.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Those bloody people, I can't bear them, is what I heard him say. Not very nice. Kind of forgot, even though he was in the middle of a news conference, that everybody can pick up every little word he's saying. How was that trip? What was the fallout from that trip?

DOBSON: Well, essentially, it's a private holiday and they do stress that. The reality is, though, since the death of the Princess of Wales, there's always been a photo call and sort of mini press conference at Klosters. I think he was particularly annoyed with BBC correspondent Nicholas Witchell for some reason. They've had a falling out in the past and I think he said bloody people, I can't bear that man. A bit much, really.

I think for the BBC, really, because they are the -- if you like, the state broadcaster over here and I think the Prince of Wales was fully aware that he had microphones in front of him, but clearly he didn't realize that they pick up so clearly. A bit amateur really, because certainly he had two senior public relations executives with him on that trip and they had obviously supervised the placing the microphones. But you know, hey, things happen like this.

O'BRIEN: You know, and technology today, you can pick up pretty much anything. You know, this is really just one -- I mean, they've only been engaged since February and there's been a litany of just bumbles and missteps and mistakes along the way. The most recent of which is Mrs. Parker Bowles not attending the funeral, right, because of protocol issues?

DOBSON: Well, I think on this one, it's right that Mrs. Parker Bowles is not married to prince yet. I think it would cause all sorts of problems. After all, she is a divorcee, he's a divorcee. There's a bit of a cafoffle (ph) about all of that anyway. So it's easier for the prince to go on his own, as has always been -- has always intended to be the case.

But yes, since I broke the story, they've sort of been bounced into making all sorts of errors. The first one, of course, the biggest one, was when they were going to have it at Windsor Castle privately, and then on to the service dedication at St. George's Chapel, but then they realized by doing so, anybody could get married, according to civil law, at the Windsor Castle for three years, which obviously they didn't want to happen. They had to shift it to the local townhall, the Guild (ph) Hall in Windsor, so how embarrassing really, but there we are.

O'BRIEN: Series of little bits of messes. The wedding, though, is supposed to go off Saturday. Robert Jobson of "The Evening Standard" in London this morning. Thanks, Robert. Nice to see you, as always.

A quick check of the markets is straight ahead this morning. We're "Minding Your Business" on AMERICAN MORNING. Stay with us.

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O'BRIEN: Here's kind of a strange business strategy: A popular retailer wants to capitalize on its jailbird founder. With that and a check of the markets this morning, Gerri Willis is "Minding Your Business."

Andy has got the day off. Good morning.

Who are we talking about this time around?

GERRI WILLIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've got Steve Madden, of all people. You know, he went to jail, federal prison, for several months, 41 to be exact, for stock fraud. Guess what? Now he's going to get out this spring, and the company is using it as a basis for an ad campaign. That's right. You heard before maybe from Martha Stewart, that the company would talk about it publicly. They used to never do this. But now you're seeing ads like this. Another one out, you'll love, this, Soledad, a new meaning for the word springtime. A little double entendre on there.

O'BRIEN: There he is, cuffed, heading off to...

WILLIS: Right, nobody cares; you know, it's like a badge of honor. As one ad guy put it, it's in to be out, out of prison, that is.

O'BRIEN: I don't know. I think that could be a strategy that backfires, don't you think?

WILLIS: It could ultimately, but so far it seems to be working for people. No one seems to care.

Want to talk about the markets briefly here, headed higher. As we saw a retreat from record oil prices fueling a rally here. The Dow is up almost 38 points, and we'll see if it lasts for the day.

O'BRIEN: We will. All right, Gerri, thanks. We'll talk about it later. Thank you very much.

Jack, Question of the Day?

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, is the world ready for a non- European pope is the thing we've been working with this morning.

Steve McFord (ph) writes, "The rest of the world may be ready for a non-European pope. There is much to apologize for in the third world and the wealthier Latin-American nations."

Kevin in Massachusetts, "New popes should always come from a country that has big trouble with religious freedom. Are there any Catholics in Saudi Arabia? Not many, I suspect."

Jeffrey in New Mexico writes, "From a purely business standpoint, an American pope is definitely needed in order to save from the exodus from Catholicism in America. There's more than 'The Da Vinci Code' to worry about.

O'BRIEN: If you look at the actual, the number of Catholics is growing, it's not declining. It's the number of American clergy that's going way down, and sharply, but the number of actual Catholics attending mass going up. I thought that was sort of strange.

Thank you, Jack.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIS: ... billion dollars from Americans alone.

O'BRIEN: Yes, exactly.

WILLIS: Some numbers look good.

O'BRIEN: Thank you, Jack. Thank you, Gerri.

Coming up this morning, a sportsman, a philosopher and a poet. You're going to get a chance to hear some of the special writings of John Paul II in our next hour. That's with Rick and Daryn on "CNN LIVE TODAY." AMERICAN MORNING is back in a moment.

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