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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Pope's Will Shares Thoughts on Church, World Events; Broken Borders: Illegal Aliens Put Lives of Marines at Risk
Aired April 07, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, HOST: Thank you, Wolf. Have a pleasant evening. We would expect nothing less of you than to put in at least three hours a day.
Tonight here, we'll be reporting on the Vatican's release of the pope's last will and testament. Pope John Paul II may have considered resignation five years ago. We'll have complete coverage from St. Peter's Square.
Our special report tonight, "Broken Borders," illegal aliens crossing our border from Mexico, putting the lives of U.S. Marines training for combat at risk. I'll also be talking with a leading U.S. senator who says terrorists may be trying to enter this country from Mexico through our southern border and subsidizing criminal employers in this country.
Congress is considering a proposal to legalize at least a half million illegal aliens who work on our farms. My guest tonight is the leader of a powerful farmers and growers group who says American agriculture cannot survive without a foreign and, in many cases, illegal work force.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
One day before Pope John Paul II's funeral, the Vatican today released the pope's last will and testament. The document reveals the pope may have considered the possibility of resigning in 2000 after seeing in the new millennium.
As many as five million people are expected to attend the pope's funeral tomorrow. Tonight officials close St. Peter's Basilica to mourners so that the Vatican can make final preparations for the pope's funeral.
Alessio Vinci reports now from St. Peter's Square -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
Well, most of the people who have been waiting for hours in line did manage to reach the basilica here behind me and, considering that an estimated two million people reached St. Peter's Square in the last four days without any significant incident, that alone has been considered a significant achievement. The basilica, as you mentioned, is now closed. The few people who have been waiting for -- to pay the last respects have been politely asked to leave in the last few hours.
The basilica preparations for the funeral are in full swing. The area inside the basilica is being cleaned up, of course, but also the St. Peter's Square has been all cleaned up and cleared. Tens of thousands of bottles of water have been pre-positioned, and security officials are now beginning to appear because, of course, a security sweep will begin soon.
Security, of course, is a main issue. Metal detectors will be set up here in the next few hours. We do expect about 100,000 to 115,000 pilgrims alone in the square in addition to the hundreds of thousands more who will surround the entire area around Vatican City.
And everybody approaching St. Peter's Square will be carefully searched, of course, because in addition to those hundreds of thousands of people, there also will be some 200 dignitaries, including, of course, the U.S. presidents, George W. Bush's father, the former president, as well as Bill Clinton, President Bill Clinton.
Now meanwhile, as you mentioned, the Vatican has released an Italian version of the will of Pope John Paul II. It is, first and foremost, a spiritual will, in which the pope reflects on his devotion to God, but also writes reflections about historical moments including, for example, the fall of communism. The pope there thanking providence for the fact that the Cold War did not end up with a nuclear war. As you know, the pope was widely credited for helping to bring about the fall of communism and the iron wall.
And also, he reflected on his own assassination attempt here in St. Peter's Square back in 1981, the pope calling his survival there a mere -- clear miracle.
And finally, Lou, no real mention of his resignation in the will, but certainly plenty of thought about life and death -- Lou.
DOBBS: Alessio, thank you very much. Alessio -- gee, we appreciate it.
Later here in the broadcast I'll be talking with a leading authority on the papacy. We'll be talking about Pope John Paul II's legacy and the issues that will confront his successor and the church.
And, please, be sure to join CNN tomorrow morning for live coverage of Pope John Paul II's funeral. Our special coverage begins at 3 a.m. Eastern right here, of course, on CNN.
We've reported extensively on the invasion of illegal aliens into this country. Tonight, there are new concerns that some illegal aliens in the state of Arizona are hurting not only their own lives but the lives of U.S. Marines at risk. Those illegal aliens are entering the United States through a U.S. Marine Corps bombing range.
Karen Schaler of our affiliate, KNXV, went to that range and reports tonight from Phoenix -- Karen.
KAREN SCHALER, KNXV REPORTER: Well, that's right, Lou.
When we went down and visited the Marine air station on Monday we were stunned at just how big a problem this really is. Marines from all over the country come here to train for combat. But right now the biggest battle is trying to control the hundreds of illegal immigrants coming on to the restricted property.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCHALER (voice-over): Watch as this Marine tries to block a truck of illegal immigrants racing through the restricted Marine Corps Air Station in Yuma. The Marine bails out when he realizes the truck is about to smash into him. The illegal immigrants take off running, with the Border Patrol right behind them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are getting overrun here.
SCHALER: Seems like a movie? Unfortunately, this drama is all too common at this Marine air station that's supposed to focus on training Marines for combat in Iraq and Afghanistan.
But now a record number of illegal immigrants sneaking onto the training range has forced the range to shut down more than 500 times over this past six months, for a total of 1,100 training hours lost.
COL. JAMES COONEY, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Every moment that is lost means we accept more risk in a combat theater that our people won't come home.
SCHALER: Here's the problem: a huge chunk of the Marines' bombing range is right along the Mexican border. Last year more than 1,500 illegal immigrants were caught in the training area. But already, in the first three months of this year, more than 1,100 have been apprehended.
COONEY: That is completely counter-productive to our whole training orientation.
SCHALER: And dangerous -- this video shows a training exercise where a pilot drops a practice bomb, and seconds later you can see illegal immigrants, highlighted here, running from the target.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God, that was a close call.
SCHALER: And the Marines aren't the only ones having problems with illegal immigrants impacting training.
At the Army's Yuma Proving Ground, about 30 miles north of the border, where the Army is testing artillery, mortars and ammunition, training has also been stopped because of illegal immigrants wandering onto the test area. And, outside of Gila Bend, also about 30 miles from the border, where the Air Force trains F-16 pilots for combat. The Air Force says training stopped at least 55 times last year because of illegal immigrants on the bombing range.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHALER: Now to try and get some help, the Marines have contacted Senator Jon Kyl. The senator says he has just met with top government officials at the White House to go over these concerns -- Lou.
DOBBS: Karen, gaping holes obviously in our border security and security problems for the U.S. Marine Corps. To what extent are those military officials concerned about the possibility that radical Islamist terrorists could be infiltrating a U.S. military base along that very same border?
SCHALER: Well, you bring up a great question, because they told me that is their key concern. Both the Army and the Marines say they're aware of the terrorist threat.
Again the Marines are right on the border. They are trying to patrol the area, but we just don't have enough Border Patrol is what they tell us. Their key concern is that 1,100 illegal immigrants in the first three months of this year can gain access onto a restricted area. What's stopping a terrorist from doing the same thing?
DOBBS: Karen Schaler, thank you very much, of our affiliate KNXV. We appreciate it.
Illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers billions, tens of billions of dollars every year in direct costs. Our tax dollars are paying, as well, for a huge range of services for illegal aliens, from health care to education. And the costs are rising and rising dramatically every year, because, again, the federal government is failing to secure our borders.
Lisa Sylvester has our special report tonight. The high cost of illegal immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A few years ago, Allen County, Indiana, housed only one or two illegal aliens for misdemeanors and felonies. But now the number of alien inmates has climbed to nearly 40, as the area's Hispanic population has grown.
Sheriff Jim Herman says it costs $35 a day to feed and clothe each inmate. That does not include the cost for medical expenses, interpreters and lawyers.
JIM HERMAN, SHERIFF, ALLEN COUNTY, INDIANA: We have more prisoners than we know what to do with, even before you start talking about undocumented aliens. So like I say, it just adds to the frustration. We can't seem to build jail cells fast enough. SYLVESTER: It's not only local government shouldering the cost of illegal immigration. The federal government is also shelling out billions a year, which means all Americans end up paying.
PETER SEPP, NATIONAL TAXPAYERS UNION: The costs of illegal immigration may be concentrated in some of the Southwestern border states, but the fact is, illegal immigration is occurring nationwide. And it is a nationwide cost that taxpayers will bear.
SYLVESTER: Costs for the prison and court system, emergency medical treatment and schools. And amnesty would make things far worse, according to the Center for Immigration Studies.
STEVEN CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: We estimate that while right now illegal aliens impose a net cost on the federal government of $10 billion, if they were legalized and began to use services and pay taxes like legal aliens, like legal immigrants, with the same levels of education, that cost would balloon to nearly $30 billion.
SYLVESTER: $30 billion on top of the current record federal budget deficit.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Center for Immigration Studies found that illegal households pay $16 billion in taxes annually, but they end up costing the federal government $26 billion in services -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.
Coming up next here, unfair trade: how China is manipulating its currency and driving millions of Americans out of work, and complaining about U.S. trade policies all the while.
And subsidizing criminal employers: my guest tonight is the leader of a powerful farmers group who says American agriculture simply cannot survive without a foreign and mostly illegal work force.
Those stories are next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We reported extensively here on China's unfair trade practices, the devastating impact that U.S. trade policies and unfair trade has had on our industries and jobs. Now some members of Congress are beginning, beginning to fight back. There is now legislation in the House and the Senate calling for a crackdown on China's unfair trade practices.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Congress is fed up with China's trade policies. The House today introduced its own legislation accusing China of currency manipulation. The Senate is threatening tariffs of more than 27 percent on Chinese products sold in the United States.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: It says to the Chinese enough already. It says to the Chinese that their unfair trade policies have got to end.
PILGRIM: The claim is China's currency is undervalued by as much as 40 percent. That makes Chinese products that much cheaper in U.S. stores. And the stores are full of them. But those artificially low Chinese prices are prices that U.S. manufacturers can't match. And that is destroying U.S. manufacturing jobs.
REP. TIM RYAN (D), OHIO: We want to fix this problem because we're hemorrhaging all over the country. Manufacturing is hemorrhaging all over the country. And we want to make sure that we provide a level playing field for everybody.
PILGRIM: The AFL-CIO is calling for bipartisan support.
RICHARD TRUMKA, AFL-CIO: We're frustrated and we're angry at the administration's continued refusal to move aggressively on this very important issue.
PILGRIM: It's a tactic Congress has successfully used in the past to push the president to act.
ROBERT SCOTT, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: In the early '70s with Nixon, in the mid '80s with Reagan, in each case Congress passed a law which would impose trade sanctions, and that forced the administration to take action.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the Senate backers of the bill point out the United States has lost close to three million manufacturing jobs, 90 percent of all jobs lost in the last five years. They say a good part of that is due to the unfair currency manipulation with China. And Lou, they say it's time to recognize the problem and address it.
DOBBS: Which we have been addressing here for three years. At some point one hopes that Congress will take seriously its responsibility to represent those Americans who are losing their jobs. One hopes. Maybe it's a beginning.
PILGRIM: It seems a bit late in the game, but at least action was taken.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Kitty, thank you. Kitty Pilgrim.
Incredibly, China, which, as Kitty Pilgrim just reported, manipulates its currency to its great advantage and to the disadvantage of the interests of the United States, today accused the United States of unfair trade practices. A Chinese government spokesman said China strongly opposes threats by the United States and Europe to impose quotas on those Chinese textile exports, many of which have been rising by as much as, say, 1,200 percent over the course of a three-month period.
My favorite, and our quote of the day, tonight comes from a Chinese government spokesman who had the chutzpah -- I don't know how to say that in Chinese -- who said, "Any attempt or moves to extend the quota system would go against the principle of free and fair trade."
China's unfair manipulation of its currency has contributed, of course, to the record U.S. trade deficit with China. Last year that deficit soared to a new record of $162 billion. One can only imagine how high that trade deficit would actually be if the United States were not practicing unfair trade practices.
A leading senator tonight is bracing for a fight over the latest so-called free trade agreement. Congress next week begins debate on the Central American Free Trade Agreement that President Bush signed in May. Congress voted in 2002 to give President Bush the ability to fast track trade agreements like CAFTA, with little or no say from Congress at all.
Now, however, Senator Byron Dorgan is pushing lawmakers not to extend the president's fast track authority. Senator Dorgan says CAFTA will only lead more American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Senator Dorgan says he will lead that fight against CAFTA and Fast Track in the Senate.
A shocking statement tonight from a group -- a group that its principal goal is to protect American manufacturers. That group is the National Association of Manufacturers, and it's backing so-called free trade agreements with Central America and the Dominican Republic. The group, NAM, even says those agreements will actually level the playing field for U.S. exporters.
The president of the association said the seven countries in the agreement have an economy the size of Sacramento, California. By our estimates, it's really New Haven, Connecticut, but that's all right.
He goes on to say they pose a threat -- that they would pose a threat to us is ludicrous. What's ludicrous is that this organization that is presumably supporting American manufacturers who want to manufacture American products in this country, of course, would be backing an agreement that would send American manufacturing jobs to those cheap foreign labor markets.
Some might think it's just another outsourcing agreement. One might think our manufacturing industry had suffered enough after the North American Free Trade Agreement and the loss of three million manufacturing jobs over the course of the past five years.
Coming up next here, the final preparation for the funeral of Pope John Paul II. Father John Paris will be with us. He says the response from the public has been nothing less than overwhelming. We'll be talking about the pope's legacy and the issues confronting his successor.
And I'll be talking with a senator who says terrorists may be trying to enter the country from Mexico along our southern border.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Vatican officials tonight have closed St. Peter's Basilica to mourners preparing for the funeral of Pope John Paul II beginning tomorrow morning. As many as four million people traveled to the Vatican to pay their last respects to the pope. Father John Paris joins us again tonight from Boston.
The will and testament of Pope John Paul II today revealed. Any surprises to you, father?
REV. JOHN PARIS, PROFESSOR, BOSTON COLLEGE: No, there were really no surprises in that. This is -- unlike a will of most people, this had nothing to do with the disposition of his worldly goods. He had none.
It's a spiritual journey. And this is really a prayer and a reflection.
There's some talk in there about thinking he might be talking about resignation. But it's really clear when he's talking about the Nunc dimittis he's talking about death. He said, "I'm here to serve until the Lord himself calls me." In fact, he puts it very plainly when he says that, "Only the Lord will determine the final time of my life and the end of my ministry."
DOBBS: And suggestions along those lines that in 2000, entering a new millennium, that Pope John Paul II considered resignation. Were you surprised by that possibility entering his mind?
PARIS: No, he said, "I'm approaching 80." But I'm not certain as I read this -- and, of course, this was written in Polish, translated into Italian, and then translated into English. So the language isn't entirely clear.
But he's saying, "As I approach 80, I must now begin to think about Simeon," the priest there in the temple. Jesus presided and Simeon says, "Nunc dimittis," "Now I can end my life. It's been fulfilled." And I think the pope here is really asking not how do I resign the office of pope, but how do I resign myself into facing death?
This text is filled with meditations and thoughts on death. And I think it's death rather than resignation from office that's the driving force in this particular document.
DOBBS: That's interesting. An interesting interpretation and a compelling one.
The funeral tomorrow, we begin our coverage here at 3:00 a.m. Give us a sense of what we can expect.
PARIS: The funeral tomorrow will be exactly the same funeral that any Catholic in the world would have. It's taken from the official rites for funerals. Now there will be a lot more pomp and a lot more majesty. It will be grand opera at its best. Verdi couldn't match what you're going to see.
But none of those symbolisms are important. What's really important are two things, the Paschal Candle, the Easter sign, the sign of Life, and the Book of the Gospels, the nourishment of life. These are the only symbols in that rich panoply of things you'll see that really mark off what it means to be a Christian.
DOBBS: Father John Paris, we thank you for being with us here.
PARIS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: And we'll be talking with you tomorrow. Thank you very much.
The mystery of who wrote an explosive one-page memo, a memo that said Republicans could win political advantage from the Terri Schiavo case, has been solved. And a job has been lost.
That memo, first reported by "the Washington Post." was written by a senior staffer to Republican Senator Mel Martinez of Florida. The staffer has since resigned.
"The Washington Post" identified that staffer as the senator's legal counsel, Brian Darling. The document, which came to light at the height of the controversial congressional debate over Terri Schiavo's prospects for life and death, said in part, "This is an important moral issue. And the pro-life base will be excited. This is a great political issue. This is a tough issue for Democrats."
When that memorandum surfaced, Senator Martinez said he knew nothing about it. The Republican leadership on Capitol Hill also disavowed the memo.
Coming up next here, why one leading senator says terrorists may be trying to enter our country through our border with Mexico.
Also tonight, subsidizing criminal employers, employers who hire illegal aliens. Congress considering a proposal that would legalize at least half a million illegal aliens working on their farms and ours.
And changing tactics: why insurgents in Iraq may be changing their tactics in battles with U.S. forces. General David Grange will join me.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In a moment, I'll be talking with a U.S. senator who is proposing legislation that would give millions of illegal aliens a path to legal status in this country.
Now some of the other important stories we're following tonight.
Pfizer taking its arthritis painkiller Bextra off the market. That controversial drug being withdrawn.
The FDA asked for that recall, saying the drug may have links to heart problems and life-threatening skin reactions. This just about a month after a panel on a split vote recommended allowing it to remain on the market. The FDA also calling for strong warnings on Pfizer's other arthritis medicine, Celebrex.
Two suspects are in custody tonight after two shootings. Two people were killed, at least four others wounded in a shooting spree that began on the Eastern Shore of Delaware and ended in Maryland. The 22-year-old suspect in custody, to appear in court tomorrow.
A football coach was shot at a high school in Canton, Texas. The suspect captured after several hours on the run. Police say the suspect was carrying a list of five people he wanted to shoot. One of those was his own son.
My guest tonight has just returned from our border with Mexico near Nogales, Arizona. Senator Chuck Hagel met with Border Patrol agents there. He saw some of the underground tunnels that illegal aliens are crawling through and drug dealers crawling through to enter this country. Senator Hagel is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the Intelligence Committee, among others, and joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
Senator, good to have you here.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: First, your impressions of what you witnessed there.
HAGEL: Well, it's an awesome -- an awesome task and responsibility that our Border Patrol, our Customs people, our Homeland Security officials have to deal with. We have a 2,000 mile border down there, Lou, that essentially is wide open. And I think we've made a lot of progress.
We've put more and more resources down there. We have put more sophisticated resources in our efforts to patrol that border, like unmanned vehicles, like high-tech scanners and so on. But the fact is we've still got a big job.
DOBBS: We've got a big job. And as we're approaching the fourth anniversary of September 11, we're doing a lousy job.
I think that can be safely said if one is not concerned about being too politic about it. Three million illegal aliens last year, you're talking about tunnels beneath the border, the drug war. It's almost as if we're not fighting it, in many cases, on that border. It's raging, but we're not fighting it.
What in the world can be done in the short term to awaken the U.S. Senate, the U.S. Congress, the White House, to the urgency to deal with this issue? Because I know you're as concerned about terrorists crossing that border as anyone.
HAGEL: Well, I am, Lou. And I would answer your question this way -- what has to be done, what must be done to wake us up? First, a realization that this issue, this immigration issue, to use one of our favorite terms holistically it must be approached.
What does that mean then in the Congress of the United States? What it means is we must have a wide open, full-bore debate on the floor of the House and the Senate coming out of the committees about what we're going to do about this.
It's not just security of the border, Lou, as you know, it's about our economic situation here. It's about a lot of workers that we do need in this country. It's about how we're going to handle those who are already here. What are we going to do about it? How are we going to attack this terrorist issue which is very real.
But the first thing that has to happen is a very real wide open debate focusing the Congress and the president on this issue to find a solution.
DOBBS: Senator, you and Senator Daschle put forward legislation, I know you're going to introduce legislation soon to -- on the issue of immigration reform. But is it not a fact that no matter what that debate, and I couldn't agree with you more personally, Senator, that that debate, that nationwide discussion, conversation has to begin in earnest and with honesty, and with an understanding of the facts.
But isn't it absolutely true that we've got to take control of our borders South, North, our ports, before -- because whatever we do with immigration, if we do not control our own borders, if we do not secure our own borders, everything else is -- well it's a facade, a farce, what do you think?
HAGEL: Well, I agree with every adjective you used. But even more to the point, we will never really get to a legitimate realistic relevant workable immigration reform law until the American public is convinced that we in fact are securing our borders. And we're not.
It's not the Border Patrol's fault. It's not U.S. Customs' fault. We need more resources down there. We need a better policy. We need more of a focus.
But at the same time, I think we've got to come at this, Lou, from the complete arc of our interest. Not just the security dynamic of securing our borders, but the economic interest, our societal interests here. All of those. And that's why we need this wide open debate to really get down into it.
DOBBS: What is in your judgment, I'm fascinated, you and I talked about a host of critical issues over the years. We talked about this issue. But what is your sense of the reason that the men and women we have elected to office to service us in Washington, D.C. in both the House and Senate are absolutely unwilling to tackle this issue? And I'm talking about obviously broadly, not yourself and a number of others. There's this fear of being targeted as a racist by groups. There is this fear of dealing with immigration for ideological reasons on both the left and right the people. And the people who work for a living in this country, who are paying the taxes that are supporting illegal immigration, subsidizing the criminal employers who hire them because they are the root of this issue. People talk about the benefits of illegal immigrations. The benefits accrue to those illegal employers not to the workers whose wages are being depressed or the taxpayers who have to pay for Social Security. It's extraordinary. What is the reason for that?
HAGEL: Well, I don't know if I can give you a simple answer. I can give you this observation. This issue is a very difficult, explosive complicated issue. It washes over all dynamics in our society. And the Congress is not good at dealing with those kinds of issues. We like to defer them.
Last time we talked I was on your show we talked about Social Security and some of these entitlement programs. We don't like to deal with those kind of things, Lou, we like to defer them. We like to put band aids on them. We like to nibble around them.
And it's going to require direct leadership from the president. The president has talked about this. But more importantly the Congress is going to have to get at it, because the American people demand it, they should expect it. And we fail them if we don't deal with these kinds of big issues.
And I think by the way, you will see the Congress of the United States, at least in the Senate deal with this issue starting probably next week.
DOBBS: We have got a number of important tests to measure that progress by. Senator Chuck Hagel, good to have you with us.
HAGEL: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Giovanni in Arlington, Virginia wrote to say, "immigration reform begins with securing the border. Before we can talk about what's right and wrong with immigration, we need to stop the invasion of illegal aliens.
Ron in Earlville, New York, "please explain how Pancho Villa and his band of pistoleros attacking, harassing and killing Americans along the border in 1915-1917 is different than the modern day Mexican gangs like MS-13" which is a Central American gang by the way "killing, kidnapping and raping Americans along the border.
Brad Cordova in St. Louis Park, Minnesota, "I find it amusing that certain guests of yours accuse you of unbalanced journalism and the lumping of legal immigrates with illegal aliens. Who are they kidding? The open borders crowd relies on mudding the waters between the two, constantly referring to illegal aliens as immigrants, migrants and workers. Their other strategy is to play the race card, which doesn't go over with most Americans anyway." Brad, I certainly couldn't agree with you more. As I've said here, illegal immigration is not an issue of race. Breaking the law is breaking the law. It doesn't matter what race is involved. And our national security interests begins at our borders and our ports.
Francis Markham from Hilo, Hawaii, "Why don't we invite Mexico to become our 51st state, put President Bush and his crew in charge. And Canada can seek the whole kit and kaboodle as part of their dominion."
Now there's a thought. We've got more to think about.
Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book "Exporting America." And our e-mail newsletter is available on the Web site, loudobbs.com as well.
As we reported, illegal aliens costing taxpayers tens of billions of dollars each year. That is the subject of our poll tonight. "Who do you think should be responsible for the cost of illegal aliens in the United States? U.S. taxpayers, criminal employers, country of origin." Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up at the end of the broadcast.
Coming up next, the leader of a powerful farmers organization who says American agriculture cannot survive with (sic) a foreign and mostly illegal work force.
And "Winning," a new book by the legendary Jack Welch about success and the formula, therefore. Co-authors Jack Welch, Suzy Welch, they will be with me next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Congress next week will take up a proposal to legalize at least a half million illegal alien agriculture workers in this country. My guest tonight represents 3,000 farmers, growers who strongly support the so-called AG Jobs Bill. Tom Nasiff is the president, CEO of Western Growers. That's a group of farmers and growers who are just about half the country's producers.
He says the U.S. agricultural industry could not exist without a foreign work force. Tom Nasiff joins me now. Good to have you here.
TOM NASIFF, WESTERN GROWERS: Very nice to be with you, Lou. Thanks for inviting me.
DOBBS: Agriculture in this country can't survive without a foreign and as we know mostly illegal work force?
NASIFF: I absolutely agree with that. The fact is that we have stood up and said we don't like the fact that our industry cannot exist without a foreign work force. And we don't like the fact that a majority of them are here illegally. So we've asked for a law that will allow us to bring in the men legally so we don't have to worry about whether they're legal or illegal in this country.
DOBBS: Last year down in Yuma, Arizona, where I've spent a considerable amount of time, you asked the Border Patrol to stop a checkpoint because they were interfering with agriculture down there in the midst of the harvest.
NASIFF: What really happened was, at the very beginning of the harvest, I got calls from about a dozen major lettuce growers who said they don't have workers in the field because their buses were being stopped, and they were losing both their legal workforce and those that had come to them with illegal documents.
DOBBS: You know, I'm a fellow that worked along the border in the early -- I shouldn't admit this, in the early '70s -- in which, at that time, Cesar Chavez was bringing forward the United Farm Worker Union. Green cards were coming across legally into this country to drive the harvest. Why won't that system work today?
NASIFF: I think it was working beautifully, but they stopped the system, unfortunately, and that's what's hurt us.
DOBBS: But how do you rationalize -- you know, I don't want anybody to lose money in this country, a grower, a farmer, a guy working for wages in this country as a U.S. citizen, whose wages are being depressed by illegal workers in this country. What do we do?
NASIFF: Well, I think what we do...
DOBBS: Because not everybody can call up the Border Patrol and have the clout like you do to say -- watch that checkpoint go away.
NASIFF: Yes, it didn't go away. I mean, what I asked them to do was, I said, If you're not targeting...
DOBBS: (INAUDIBLE) it went away, you know it went away.
NASIFF: ... if you're not targeting agricultural workers, which they said they were not, we said, why then do have you the checkpoint in front of the fields, rather than on the other side of the fields?
DOBBS: I'm -- I'm -- I'm a simple fellow. I believe in cause and effect. You make a phone call, the checkpoint disappears, only comes back intermittently much later. I understand. Our viewers understand. Smart audience.
But the fact of the matter is, we got to have a solution. And legalizing people because -- every grower using illegal labor is committing a crime, subject to $10,000 fine for every one of them. What's the reason?
NASIFF: As you know, we don't hire people that we know are illegal aliens. We know that a majority of the workforce is illegal, but they come to us with the legal documents. They appear to be. A Social Security card and a driver's license with a photo on it. We do not have the legal right to investigate.
DOBBS: I'm not trying to put anybody in jail or get you a fine. I'm just saying to you, why in the world are we letting business decide who is going to be working, what the immigration policy is, that we're going to ignore immigration policy, and why in the world are we allowing the Mexican government and other Central and South American governments, primarily, to set our immigration policy?
NASIFF: We shouldn't. We should have the legislature stand up and give us a workable solution. You cannot say we're going to take every illegal alien out of this country without at least factoring in the need for some foreign workers in this country. China is coming at us like a freight train. We can't compete with them. They've got 3 percent of our labor costs. They're dumping their products on our market, and our government's doing nothing about it.
DOBBS: Well, you've got some company in one regard, because agriculture in this country is not the only ones getting their butts kicked.
NASIFF: Absolutely.
DOBBS: OK? But we're going to continue to do that if we think it's going to be only based on cost of labor. There's got to be more to this country than the lowest possible common denominator in pay.
NASIFF: And I agree.
DOBBS: And we'll even pay a little more for the lettuce. I'm speaking for all of America now, even without their permission.
We appreciate your being here, Tom. Come back soon. We're going to talk about this a lot more and in depth, extensively.
NASIFF: Thank you very much, Lou.
DOBBS: Tom Nasiff, thank you.
The funeral for Pope John Paul II is just hours away now. Anderson Cooper will be covering the pope's funeral live from the Vatican, and he joins us now. Anderson?
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "360 WITH ANDERSON COOPER:" Good evening, Lou.
Yes, it is just several hours from now. The St. Peter's Basilica, the doors are closed for the first time in quite a while. Those large lines of people we have seen, those millions of people, have gone, filing past the body of Pope John Paul II, have gone.
They are preparing his body, preparing the basilica for these, for the funeral.
As you see, a live shot there. Cardinals are seated. Dignitaries are still allowed to go in and visit the body. But the Roman population, the Poles, the Americans, the people who have come over this last week, the massive outpouring of love for this pope, those people now are holding a candlelight vigil outside on the way to Circus Maximus, which is one of the public viewing areas during this funeral. So many people, millions of people are anticipated to actually try to watch this funeral in person. They've set up various public viewings. There will also be some people outside St. Peter's Basilica.
We're going to be covering all of this, "360," at the top of this hour.
We're also going to take a look, introduce you to a man you probably never heard of before. We all know that the pope was the most-photographed man in history. Well, one man took most of those photographs, more photographs of the pope than anyone else, his official photographer, never more than just a few feet away from the pope. We'll talk with him and hear his unique perspective tonight on "360," Lou.
DOBBS: Looking forward to it, Anderson. Anderson, thank you very much. And that will be coming up in just about 15 minutes right here on CNN, "ANDERSON COOPER 360."
Insurgents are using new tactics to attack our troops in Iraq. General David Grange will be with me when we continue.
That and a great deal more still ahead here. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As Iraq begins to build a new democracy, there are indications the insurgents fighting desperately against that emerging democracy are changing their tactics. Five days ago, several dozen insurgents attacked Abu Ghraib Prison outside Baghdad. Forty U.S. troops, 12 prisoners were wounded in the conflict. Military officials now say that attack was well planned, well organized, well executed.
And at the same time, U.S. and Iraqi troops are fighting much larger groups of insurgents in other offensive operations around Iraq.
Joining me now is General David Grange. General, is this an act of consolidation on the part of the insurgents? Or is it a sign of weakness?
GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Lou, it's a little bit of both. It's weakness because right now, the insurgents don't have the ability to obtain the support of the local population as much as before, so they cannot move at will and strike at will. They have to husband their resources, which were in short supply, and hit targets that have bigger payoffs and where they have -- can spend a significant amount of time with reconnaissance and planning before they actually strike.
DOBBS: The idea that fewer Americans are being killed, are being wounded, over the course of the -- since the elections, is a sign of great hope, we're all thankful for that. Is it your judgment, based on what you're watching with these change in tactics and the approach of the insurgents now, that we're going to be able to count on that being a reality that will be persistent and long-lived?
GRANGE: I think so, Lou. It's a lot of changes with the capabilities of the Iraqi forces. The U.S. wants to step back. The GIs are stepping back where they can. And they're having an effect. There's a confidence that's slowly building with the Iraqis themselves against the insurgency. And that's affecting the amount of work that the GI has to do overseas.
DOBBS: And the idea, much talked about, certainly, that many of our troops will be able to begin coming home in large numbers this year, given what you are watching and what you know from your sources in the Pentagon, what is your sense of how realistic it is to preserve that hope?
GRANGE: Well, it's going to start soon. But what -- you know, U.S. forces are going to be there for a couple years, I believe, if nothing else in an advisory role, a training role. And what you're seeing now is the transition to just that. I mean, you have patrols of Iraqi forces in Haifa Street and places in Mosul and other places, with just one or two American sergeants or young officers to provide some guidance and some communication with some very capable Iraqi forces.
DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you for that very capable, as always, analysis.
A reminder tonight to vote in our poll -- who do you think should be held responsible for the cost of illegal aliens in this country: U.S. taxpayers, criminal employers, or countries of origin? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results for you coming up here at the end of the broadcast.
Still ahead the results of our poll, and I'll be talking with Jack and Suzy Welch, it turns out -- I didn't know about Suzy -- we're delighted. We'll be talking about their new book, "Winning." We'll see how they're winning. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight, the former CEO of General Electric, a legend without any equivocation on the expression, and that is of course Jack Welch, his wife Suzy. Good to have you both here.
Jack, I haven't seen you for a while. Why this new book, "Winning."
JACK WELCH, FMR CEO GENERAL ELECTRIC, AUTHOR "WINNING": Well, we talked to 300,000 people over the last three years since I retired. Got lots of insights into how people are thinking, in Q&A sessions as you know I have -- you and I have done programs together.
DOBBS: You usually get paid a lot of money for those, as well.
J. WELCH: So do you.
DOBBS: Well, that's a fair statement as well. J. WELCH: And so we -- Suzy and I had been traveling around the world, we had lots of data. We decided we had some things to address to people.
DOBBS: The idea that you can give -- and I've known you for a long, long time -- how relevant is what you know to a man or woman running a small business, a medium-size business, just out of curiosity, in your own judgment?
J. WELCH: I think what we're talking about here is totally applicable, whether you are running a restaurant -- we talk in the book about a pizzeria down the street, and there's a certain strategy -- I remember a drugstore that competes with its service, it's against the CVS, a big chain two blocks away. And this guy has got service -- delivery to the home, everything you want to buy, he's got his China, his CVS, and he's beating it.
DOBBS: You and Jack working on this book, how long did it take you?
SUZY WELCH, CO-AUTHOR "WINNING": About a year.
DOBBS: About a year. Is that because of your orders, your discipline, or his, or is it a great combination in that regard?
S. WELCH: I think you are looking at two workaholics. So, we both pushed each other. I would say we're both equally guilty about the speed at which we moved.
DOBBS: And, with your family, with your interests, you may be workaholics but you also address the issue of balance. How do you achieve that in your own lives?
S. WELCH: Well, every day a different strategy. We know what matters to us, and so if you have that vision of what really matters -- in our case it's the family and it's work -- and then you just sort of each day you try to create that balance. You don't try to get higher, 20,000 feet, than that. Each day you just sort of tweak the schedule to achieve balance.
DOBBS: Did both of you -- did each of you, like most of us, including myself, learn the importance of balance, by being out of balance with your family life, your personal lives, away from your business life, so much?
J. WELCH: I give her a higher grade for balance than I probably had in a different era. She is a fabulous mother more than anything else. And a fabulous writer as you will see from this book.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
And I have got to ask you, why couldn't you talk him out of this line here on China -- you had to bring up outsourcing. Didn't you try to talk him out of that?
S. WELCH: Well, we'd been watching you so much. And he had such a bone to pick with you. He said, I'm going to write this line for Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: You know darn well we're going to talk about it. Now, what does that mean? How can you support outsourcing jobs? Jack, you and I have known each other -- we've been friends.
J. WELCH: Lou, you and I come down on a different side of this one every time. And I admire you for your position, wrong as it is.
DOBBS: Well, I admire you for your accomplishments, and I won't even qualify that.
J. WELCH: Well, I won't qualify mine either.
I love the fact that you raise the issue. You have got it into political debate for a moment or two. Then they all ran from it when they realized it wasn't a real issue.
DOBBS: No, they ran from it because they are all political cowards. No, it's quite a difference than because it's not an issue.
J. WELCH: I don't think so.
DOBBS: Because we see it accelerating. You know, one of the things that strikes me here, we are seeing such tepid job growth. You both know, you are very sophisticated people. You look at the trade deficit. I'm, as you know, firmly committed to jobs. I know those jobs are created for lots of important, lots of critical and complex reasons.
But the fact is, GE today has fewer people working for it when you were there. You might say fine, it had a lot fewer when you took over in 19 -- what was it, 1980...?
J. WELCH: 80, right.
DOBBS: ...after your 10 years at your stewardship. The fact is this economy is not driving high-quality jobs as we were promised by some of the faith-based free-marketeers.
J. WELCH: I'm not sure that's true.
DOBBS: Why? It's absolutely true.
J. WELCH: Unemployment is half what it was.
DOBBS: Think of the quality of jobs.
J. WELCH: I don't think -- I think there's a lot of great quality jobs. I think we're growing high tech jobs, we're growing a whole biotech sector. We're innovating in every company -- the jobs in GE today that we have are much higher quality jobs than we had....
DOBBS: Well, let's talk about winning: $162 billion deficit with China.
Suzy, when you look at this issue -- when you look at $162 billion deficit with China, and we talk about corporate America not supporting our basic infrastructure, the community that makes our corporations possible -- education is going to hell in this country. You look at the test scores, you know very well what is happening.
How can we do this -- if we move our factories of production offshore. If, basically NAFTA, the proposed CAFTA, is an outsourcing agreement more than a trade agreement. How can we sustain that? We import more than $3 billion in capital.
S. WELCH: The alternative is a controlled economy, and that doesn't work.
DOBBS: How about the alternative being opening up those markets to an innovative American work force and businesses. You know, Jack, a great business leader like you, you look around. Where are the leaders? Where's the optimism? Where's the drive that says we're going to go out and kick butt?
J. WELCH: I think you ought to look around. You're going to see -- going to see GE, see Procter & Gamble, you'll see...
DOBBS: I'm talking about corporations. Where are those leaders? The business roundtable isn't talking about -- they're saying, poor us, we have to find better labor. We can't do this, we can't do that. They're whining half the time about taxation, they're paying lower taxes than they were 30 years ago by 300 percent. What are we going to do? How are we going to win?
J. WELCH: There is no revenue from government. It all comes from business.
DOBBS: But I hate having no countervailing influence to corporate power in our political system.
J. WELCH: Stop it.
DOBBS: Good to see you.
J. WELCH: Enjoy your pulpit.
DOBBS: Well, it's yours, too.
Thanks for sharing it.
J. WELCH: Thanks a lot. And thanks for talking about "Winning."
DOBBS: I said "Winning" twice.
J. WELCH: Say it one more time.
DOBBS: "Winning." That's how you win.
J. WELCH: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thanks to Jack and to Suzy Welch. And by golly, if we haven't flogged that book enough, there it is, up on the screen again. And, the results of our poll: 66 percent of you saying criminal employers should be responsible for the cost of illegal aliens in the country, 32 percent say the country of origin should be responsible. Only 6 percent of you said taxpayers. The problem is 100 percent of you as taxpayers are bearing the burden.
Thanks for being with us. Pope John Paul II's funeral -- a leading authority on the papacy will be our guest. Please join us.
CNN will have complete coverage of Pope John Paul II's funeral tonight. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is live from the Vatican -- Anderson.
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Aired April 7, 2005 - 18:00 ET
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LOU DOBBS, HOST: Thank you, Wolf. Have a pleasant evening. We would expect nothing less of you than to put in at least three hours a day.
Tonight here, we'll be reporting on the Vatican's release of the pope's last will and testament. Pope John Paul II may have considered resignation five years ago. We'll have complete coverage from St. Peter's Square.
Our special report tonight, "Broken Borders," illegal aliens crossing our border from Mexico, putting the lives of U.S. Marines training for combat at risk. I'll also be talking with a leading U.S. senator who says terrorists may be trying to enter this country from Mexico through our southern border and subsidizing criminal employers in this country.
Congress is considering a proposal to legalize at least a half million illegal aliens who work on our farms. My guest tonight is the leader of a powerful farmers and growers group who says American agriculture cannot survive without a foreign and, in many cases, illegal work force.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
DOBBS: Good evening.
One day before Pope John Paul II's funeral, the Vatican today released the pope's last will and testament. The document reveals the pope may have considered the possibility of resigning in 2000 after seeing in the new millennium.
As many as five million people are expected to attend the pope's funeral tomorrow. Tonight officials close St. Peter's Basilica to mourners so that the Vatican can make final preparations for the pope's funeral.
Alessio Vinci reports now from St. Peter's Square -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Lou.
Well, most of the people who have been waiting for hours in line did manage to reach the basilica here behind me and, considering that an estimated two million people reached St. Peter's Square in the last four days without any significant incident, that alone has been considered a significant achievement. The basilica, as you mentioned, is now closed. The few people who have been waiting for -- to pay the last respects have been politely asked to leave in the last few hours.
The basilica preparations for the funeral are in full swing. The area inside the basilica is being cleaned up, of course, but also the St. Peter's Square has been all cleaned up and cleared. Tens of thousands of bottles of water have been pre-positioned, and security officials are now beginning to appear because, of course, a security sweep will begin soon.
Security, of course, is a main issue. Metal detectors will be set up here in the next few hours. We do expect about 100,000 to 115,000 pilgrims alone in the square in addition to the hundreds of thousands more who will surround the entire area around Vatican City.
And everybody approaching St. Peter's Square will be carefully searched, of course, because in addition to those hundreds of thousands of people, there also will be some 200 dignitaries, including, of course, the U.S. presidents, George W. Bush's father, the former president, as well as Bill Clinton, President Bill Clinton.
Now meanwhile, as you mentioned, the Vatican has released an Italian version of the will of Pope John Paul II. It is, first and foremost, a spiritual will, in which the pope reflects on his devotion to God, but also writes reflections about historical moments including, for example, the fall of communism. The pope there thanking providence for the fact that the Cold War did not end up with a nuclear war. As you know, the pope was widely credited for helping to bring about the fall of communism and the iron wall.
And also, he reflected on his own assassination attempt here in St. Peter's Square back in 1981, the pope calling his survival there a mere -- clear miracle.
And finally, Lou, no real mention of his resignation in the will, but certainly plenty of thought about life and death -- Lou.
DOBBS: Alessio, thank you very much. Alessio -- gee, we appreciate it.
Later here in the broadcast I'll be talking with a leading authority on the papacy. We'll be talking about Pope John Paul II's legacy and the issues that will confront his successor and the church.
And, please, be sure to join CNN tomorrow morning for live coverage of Pope John Paul II's funeral. Our special coverage begins at 3 a.m. Eastern right here, of course, on CNN.
We've reported extensively on the invasion of illegal aliens into this country. Tonight, there are new concerns that some illegal aliens in the state of Arizona are hurting not only their own lives but the lives of U.S. Marines at risk. Those illegal aliens are entering the United States through a U.S. Marine Corps bombing range.
Karen Schaler of our affiliate, KNXV, went to that range and reports tonight from Phoenix -- Karen.
KAREN SCHALER, KNXV REPORTER: Well, that's right, Lou.
When we went down and visited the Marine air station on Monday we were stunned at just how big a problem this really is. Marines from all over the country come here to train for combat. But right now the biggest battle is trying to control the hundreds of illegal immigrants coming on to the restricted property.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCHALER (voice-over): Watch as this Marine tries to block a truck of illegal immigrants racing through the restricted Marine Corps Air Station in Yuma. The Marine bails out when he realizes the truck is about to smash into him. The illegal immigrants take off running, with the Border Patrol right behind them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are getting overrun here.
SCHALER: Seems like a movie? Unfortunately, this drama is all too common at this Marine air station that's supposed to focus on training Marines for combat in Iraq and Afghanistan.
But now a record number of illegal immigrants sneaking onto the training range has forced the range to shut down more than 500 times over this past six months, for a total of 1,100 training hours lost.
COL. JAMES COONEY, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Every moment that is lost means we accept more risk in a combat theater that our people won't come home.
SCHALER: Here's the problem: a huge chunk of the Marines' bombing range is right along the Mexican border. Last year more than 1,500 illegal immigrants were caught in the training area. But already, in the first three months of this year, more than 1,100 have been apprehended.
COONEY: That is completely counter-productive to our whole training orientation.
SCHALER: And dangerous -- this video shows a training exercise where a pilot drops a practice bomb, and seconds later you can see illegal immigrants, highlighted here, running from the target.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: God, that was a close call.
SCHALER: And the Marines aren't the only ones having problems with illegal immigrants impacting training.
At the Army's Yuma Proving Ground, about 30 miles north of the border, where the Army is testing artillery, mortars and ammunition, training has also been stopped because of illegal immigrants wandering onto the test area. And, outside of Gila Bend, also about 30 miles from the border, where the Air Force trains F-16 pilots for combat. The Air Force says training stopped at least 55 times last year because of illegal immigrants on the bombing range.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHALER: Now to try and get some help, the Marines have contacted Senator Jon Kyl. The senator says he has just met with top government officials at the White House to go over these concerns -- Lou.
DOBBS: Karen, gaping holes obviously in our border security and security problems for the U.S. Marine Corps. To what extent are those military officials concerned about the possibility that radical Islamist terrorists could be infiltrating a U.S. military base along that very same border?
SCHALER: Well, you bring up a great question, because they told me that is their key concern. Both the Army and the Marines say they're aware of the terrorist threat.
Again the Marines are right on the border. They are trying to patrol the area, but we just don't have enough Border Patrol is what they tell us. Their key concern is that 1,100 illegal immigrants in the first three months of this year can gain access onto a restricted area. What's stopping a terrorist from doing the same thing?
DOBBS: Karen Schaler, thank you very much, of our affiliate KNXV. We appreciate it.
Illegal aliens cost U.S. taxpayers billions, tens of billions of dollars every year in direct costs. Our tax dollars are paying, as well, for a huge range of services for illegal aliens, from health care to education. And the costs are rising and rising dramatically every year, because, again, the federal government is failing to secure our borders.
Lisa Sylvester has our special report tonight. The high cost of illegal immigration.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A few years ago, Allen County, Indiana, housed only one or two illegal aliens for misdemeanors and felonies. But now the number of alien inmates has climbed to nearly 40, as the area's Hispanic population has grown.
Sheriff Jim Herman says it costs $35 a day to feed and clothe each inmate. That does not include the cost for medical expenses, interpreters and lawyers.
JIM HERMAN, SHERIFF, ALLEN COUNTY, INDIANA: We have more prisoners than we know what to do with, even before you start talking about undocumented aliens. So like I say, it just adds to the frustration. We can't seem to build jail cells fast enough. SYLVESTER: It's not only local government shouldering the cost of illegal immigration. The federal government is also shelling out billions a year, which means all Americans end up paying.
PETER SEPP, NATIONAL TAXPAYERS UNION: The costs of illegal immigration may be concentrated in some of the Southwestern border states, but the fact is, illegal immigration is occurring nationwide. And it is a nationwide cost that taxpayers will bear.
SYLVESTER: Costs for the prison and court system, emergency medical treatment and schools. And amnesty would make things far worse, according to the Center for Immigration Studies.
STEVEN CAMAROTA, CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES: We estimate that while right now illegal aliens impose a net cost on the federal government of $10 billion, if they were legalized and began to use services and pay taxes like legal aliens, like legal immigrants, with the same levels of education, that cost would balloon to nearly $30 billion.
SYLVESTER: $30 billion on top of the current record federal budget deficit.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Center for Immigration Studies found that illegal households pay $16 billion in taxes annually, but they end up costing the federal government $26 billion in services -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.
Coming up next here, unfair trade: how China is manipulating its currency and driving millions of Americans out of work, and complaining about U.S. trade policies all the while.
And subsidizing criminal employers: my guest tonight is the leader of a powerful farmers group who says American agriculture simply cannot survive without a foreign and mostly illegal work force.
Those stories are next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: We reported extensively here on China's unfair trade practices, the devastating impact that U.S. trade policies and unfair trade has had on our industries and jobs. Now some members of Congress are beginning, beginning to fight back. There is now legislation in the House and the Senate calling for a crackdown on China's unfair trade practices.
Kitty Pilgrim reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Congress is fed up with China's trade policies. The House today introduced its own legislation accusing China of currency manipulation. The Senate is threatening tariffs of more than 27 percent on Chinese products sold in the United States.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: It says to the Chinese enough already. It says to the Chinese that their unfair trade policies have got to end.
PILGRIM: The claim is China's currency is undervalued by as much as 40 percent. That makes Chinese products that much cheaper in U.S. stores. And the stores are full of them. But those artificially low Chinese prices are prices that U.S. manufacturers can't match. And that is destroying U.S. manufacturing jobs.
REP. TIM RYAN (D), OHIO: We want to fix this problem because we're hemorrhaging all over the country. Manufacturing is hemorrhaging all over the country. And we want to make sure that we provide a level playing field for everybody.
PILGRIM: The AFL-CIO is calling for bipartisan support.
RICHARD TRUMKA, AFL-CIO: We're frustrated and we're angry at the administration's continued refusal to move aggressively on this very important issue.
PILGRIM: It's a tactic Congress has successfully used in the past to push the president to act.
ROBERT SCOTT, ECONOMIC POLICY INSTITUTE: In the early '70s with Nixon, in the mid '80s with Reagan, in each case Congress passed a law which would impose trade sanctions, and that forced the administration to take action.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the Senate backers of the bill point out the United States has lost close to three million manufacturing jobs, 90 percent of all jobs lost in the last five years. They say a good part of that is due to the unfair currency manipulation with China. And Lou, they say it's time to recognize the problem and address it.
DOBBS: Which we have been addressing here for three years. At some point one hopes that Congress will take seriously its responsibility to represent those Americans who are losing their jobs. One hopes. Maybe it's a beginning.
PILGRIM: It seems a bit late in the game, but at least action was taken.
DOBBS: Absolutely. Kitty, thank you. Kitty Pilgrim.
Incredibly, China, which, as Kitty Pilgrim just reported, manipulates its currency to its great advantage and to the disadvantage of the interests of the United States, today accused the United States of unfair trade practices. A Chinese government spokesman said China strongly opposes threats by the United States and Europe to impose quotas on those Chinese textile exports, many of which have been rising by as much as, say, 1,200 percent over the course of a three-month period.
My favorite, and our quote of the day, tonight comes from a Chinese government spokesman who had the chutzpah -- I don't know how to say that in Chinese -- who said, "Any attempt or moves to extend the quota system would go against the principle of free and fair trade."
China's unfair manipulation of its currency has contributed, of course, to the record U.S. trade deficit with China. Last year that deficit soared to a new record of $162 billion. One can only imagine how high that trade deficit would actually be if the United States were not practicing unfair trade practices.
A leading senator tonight is bracing for a fight over the latest so-called free trade agreement. Congress next week begins debate on the Central American Free Trade Agreement that President Bush signed in May. Congress voted in 2002 to give President Bush the ability to fast track trade agreements like CAFTA, with little or no say from Congress at all.
Now, however, Senator Byron Dorgan is pushing lawmakers not to extend the president's fast track authority. Senator Dorgan says CAFTA will only lead more American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets. Senator Dorgan says he will lead that fight against CAFTA and Fast Track in the Senate.
A shocking statement tonight from a group -- a group that its principal goal is to protect American manufacturers. That group is the National Association of Manufacturers, and it's backing so-called free trade agreements with Central America and the Dominican Republic. The group, NAM, even says those agreements will actually level the playing field for U.S. exporters.
The president of the association said the seven countries in the agreement have an economy the size of Sacramento, California. By our estimates, it's really New Haven, Connecticut, but that's all right.
He goes on to say they pose a threat -- that they would pose a threat to us is ludicrous. What's ludicrous is that this organization that is presumably supporting American manufacturers who want to manufacture American products in this country, of course, would be backing an agreement that would send American manufacturing jobs to those cheap foreign labor markets.
Some might think it's just another outsourcing agreement. One might think our manufacturing industry had suffered enough after the North American Free Trade Agreement and the loss of three million manufacturing jobs over the course of the past five years.
Coming up next here, the final preparation for the funeral of Pope John Paul II. Father John Paris will be with us. He says the response from the public has been nothing less than overwhelming. We'll be talking about the pope's legacy and the issues confronting his successor.
And I'll be talking with a senator who says terrorists may be trying to enter the country from Mexico along our southern border.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Vatican officials tonight have closed St. Peter's Basilica to mourners preparing for the funeral of Pope John Paul II beginning tomorrow morning. As many as four million people traveled to the Vatican to pay their last respects to the pope. Father John Paris joins us again tonight from Boston.
The will and testament of Pope John Paul II today revealed. Any surprises to you, father?
REV. JOHN PARIS, PROFESSOR, BOSTON COLLEGE: No, there were really no surprises in that. This is -- unlike a will of most people, this had nothing to do with the disposition of his worldly goods. He had none.
It's a spiritual journey. And this is really a prayer and a reflection.
There's some talk in there about thinking he might be talking about resignation. But it's really clear when he's talking about the Nunc dimittis he's talking about death. He said, "I'm here to serve until the Lord himself calls me." In fact, he puts it very plainly when he says that, "Only the Lord will determine the final time of my life and the end of my ministry."
DOBBS: And suggestions along those lines that in 2000, entering a new millennium, that Pope John Paul II considered resignation. Were you surprised by that possibility entering his mind?
PARIS: No, he said, "I'm approaching 80." But I'm not certain as I read this -- and, of course, this was written in Polish, translated into Italian, and then translated into English. So the language isn't entirely clear.
But he's saying, "As I approach 80, I must now begin to think about Simeon," the priest there in the temple. Jesus presided and Simeon says, "Nunc dimittis," "Now I can end my life. It's been fulfilled." And I think the pope here is really asking not how do I resign the office of pope, but how do I resign myself into facing death?
This text is filled with meditations and thoughts on death. And I think it's death rather than resignation from office that's the driving force in this particular document.
DOBBS: That's interesting. An interesting interpretation and a compelling one.
The funeral tomorrow, we begin our coverage here at 3:00 a.m. Give us a sense of what we can expect.
PARIS: The funeral tomorrow will be exactly the same funeral that any Catholic in the world would have. It's taken from the official rites for funerals. Now there will be a lot more pomp and a lot more majesty. It will be grand opera at its best. Verdi couldn't match what you're going to see.
But none of those symbolisms are important. What's really important are two things, the Paschal Candle, the Easter sign, the sign of Life, and the Book of the Gospels, the nourishment of life. These are the only symbols in that rich panoply of things you'll see that really mark off what it means to be a Christian.
DOBBS: Father John Paris, we thank you for being with us here.
PARIS: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: And we'll be talking with you tomorrow. Thank you very much.
The mystery of who wrote an explosive one-page memo, a memo that said Republicans could win political advantage from the Terri Schiavo case, has been solved. And a job has been lost.
That memo, first reported by "the Washington Post." was written by a senior staffer to Republican Senator Mel Martinez of Florida. The staffer has since resigned.
"The Washington Post" identified that staffer as the senator's legal counsel, Brian Darling. The document, which came to light at the height of the controversial congressional debate over Terri Schiavo's prospects for life and death, said in part, "This is an important moral issue. And the pro-life base will be excited. This is a great political issue. This is a tough issue for Democrats."
When that memorandum surfaced, Senator Martinez said he knew nothing about it. The Republican leadership on Capitol Hill also disavowed the memo.
Coming up next here, why one leading senator says terrorists may be trying to enter our country through our border with Mexico.
Also tonight, subsidizing criminal employers, employers who hire illegal aliens. Congress considering a proposal that would legalize at least half a million illegal aliens working on their farms and ours.
And changing tactics: why insurgents in Iraq may be changing their tactics in battles with U.S. forces. General David Grange will join me.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: In a moment, I'll be talking with a U.S. senator who is proposing legislation that would give millions of illegal aliens a path to legal status in this country.
Now some of the other important stories we're following tonight.
Pfizer taking its arthritis painkiller Bextra off the market. That controversial drug being withdrawn.
The FDA asked for that recall, saying the drug may have links to heart problems and life-threatening skin reactions. This just about a month after a panel on a split vote recommended allowing it to remain on the market. The FDA also calling for strong warnings on Pfizer's other arthritis medicine, Celebrex.
Two suspects are in custody tonight after two shootings. Two people were killed, at least four others wounded in a shooting spree that began on the Eastern Shore of Delaware and ended in Maryland. The 22-year-old suspect in custody, to appear in court tomorrow.
A football coach was shot at a high school in Canton, Texas. The suspect captured after several hours on the run. Police say the suspect was carrying a list of five people he wanted to shoot. One of those was his own son.
My guest tonight has just returned from our border with Mexico near Nogales, Arizona. Senator Chuck Hagel met with Border Patrol agents there. He saw some of the underground tunnels that illegal aliens are crawling through and drug dealers crawling through to enter this country. Senator Hagel is a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, the Intelligence Committee, among others, and joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
Senator, good to have you here.
SEN. CHUCK HAGEL (R), NEBRASKA: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: First, your impressions of what you witnessed there.
HAGEL: Well, it's an awesome -- an awesome task and responsibility that our Border Patrol, our Customs people, our Homeland Security officials have to deal with. We have a 2,000 mile border down there, Lou, that essentially is wide open. And I think we've made a lot of progress.
We've put more and more resources down there. We have put more sophisticated resources in our efforts to patrol that border, like unmanned vehicles, like high-tech scanners and so on. But the fact is we've still got a big job.
DOBBS: We've got a big job. And as we're approaching the fourth anniversary of September 11, we're doing a lousy job.
I think that can be safely said if one is not concerned about being too politic about it. Three million illegal aliens last year, you're talking about tunnels beneath the border, the drug war. It's almost as if we're not fighting it, in many cases, on that border. It's raging, but we're not fighting it.
What in the world can be done in the short term to awaken the U.S. Senate, the U.S. Congress, the White House, to the urgency to deal with this issue? Because I know you're as concerned about terrorists crossing that border as anyone.
HAGEL: Well, I am, Lou. And I would answer your question this way -- what has to be done, what must be done to wake us up? First, a realization that this issue, this immigration issue, to use one of our favorite terms holistically it must be approached.
What does that mean then in the Congress of the United States? What it means is we must have a wide open, full-bore debate on the floor of the House and the Senate coming out of the committees about what we're going to do about this.
It's not just security of the border, Lou, as you know, it's about our economic situation here. It's about a lot of workers that we do need in this country. It's about how we're going to handle those who are already here. What are we going to do about it? How are we going to attack this terrorist issue which is very real.
But the first thing that has to happen is a very real wide open debate focusing the Congress and the president on this issue to find a solution.
DOBBS: Senator, you and Senator Daschle put forward legislation, I know you're going to introduce legislation soon to -- on the issue of immigration reform. But is it not a fact that no matter what that debate, and I couldn't agree with you more personally, Senator, that that debate, that nationwide discussion, conversation has to begin in earnest and with honesty, and with an understanding of the facts.
But isn't it absolutely true that we've got to take control of our borders South, North, our ports, before -- because whatever we do with immigration, if we do not control our own borders, if we do not secure our own borders, everything else is -- well it's a facade, a farce, what do you think?
HAGEL: Well, I agree with every adjective you used. But even more to the point, we will never really get to a legitimate realistic relevant workable immigration reform law until the American public is convinced that we in fact are securing our borders. And we're not.
It's not the Border Patrol's fault. It's not U.S. Customs' fault. We need more resources down there. We need a better policy. We need more of a focus.
But at the same time, I think we've got to come at this, Lou, from the complete arc of our interest. Not just the security dynamic of securing our borders, but the economic interest, our societal interests here. All of those. And that's why we need this wide open debate to really get down into it.
DOBBS: What is in your judgment, I'm fascinated, you and I talked about a host of critical issues over the years. We talked about this issue. But what is your sense of the reason that the men and women we have elected to office to service us in Washington, D.C. in both the House and Senate are absolutely unwilling to tackle this issue? And I'm talking about obviously broadly, not yourself and a number of others. There's this fear of being targeted as a racist by groups. There is this fear of dealing with immigration for ideological reasons on both the left and right the people. And the people who work for a living in this country, who are paying the taxes that are supporting illegal immigration, subsidizing the criminal employers who hire them because they are the root of this issue. People talk about the benefits of illegal immigrations. The benefits accrue to those illegal employers not to the workers whose wages are being depressed or the taxpayers who have to pay for Social Security. It's extraordinary. What is the reason for that?
HAGEL: Well, I don't know if I can give you a simple answer. I can give you this observation. This issue is a very difficult, explosive complicated issue. It washes over all dynamics in our society. And the Congress is not good at dealing with those kinds of issues. We like to defer them.
Last time we talked I was on your show we talked about Social Security and some of these entitlement programs. We don't like to deal with those kind of things, Lou, we like to defer them. We like to put band aids on them. We like to nibble around them.
And it's going to require direct leadership from the president. The president has talked about this. But more importantly the Congress is going to have to get at it, because the American people demand it, they should expect it. And we fail them if we don't deal with these kinds of big issues.
And I think by the way, you will see the Congress of the United States, at least in the Senate deal with this issue starting probably next week.
DOBBS: We have got a number of important tests to measure that progress by. Senator Chuck Hagel, good to have you with us.
HAGEL: Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Taking a look now at some of your thoughts. Giovanni in Arlington, Virginia wrote to say, "immigration reform begins with securing the border. Before we can talk about what's right and wrong with immigration, we need to stop the invasion of illegal aliens.
Ron in Earlville, New York, "please explain how Pancho Villa and his band of pistoleros attacking, harassing and killing Americans along the border in 1915-1917 is different than the modern day Mexican gangs like MS-13" which is a Central American gang by the way "killing, kidnapping and raping Americans along the border.
Brad Cordova in St. Louis Park, Minnesota, "I find it amusing that certain guests of yours accuse you of unbalanced journalism and the lumping of legal immigrates with illegal aliens. Who are they kidding? The open borders crowd relies on mudding the waters between the two, constantly referring to illegal aliens as immigrants, migrants and workers. Their other strategy is to play the race card, which doesn't go over with most Americans anyway." Brad, I certainly couldn't agree with you more. As I've said here, illegal immigration is not an issue of race. Breaking the law is breaking the law. It doesn't matter what race is involved. And our national security interests begins at our borders and our ports.
Francis Markham from Hilo, Hawaii, "Why don't we invite Mexico to become our 51st state, put President Bush and his crew in charge. And Canada can seek the whole kit and kaboodle as part of their dominion."
Now there's a thought. We've got more to think about.
Send us your thoughts at loudobbs.com. Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book "Exporting America." And our e-mail newsletter is available on the Web site, loudobbs.com as well.
As we reported, illegal aliens costing taxpayers tens of billions of dollars each year. That is the subject of our poll tonight. "Who do you think should be responsible for the cost of illegal aliens in the United States? U.S. taxpayers, criminal employers, country of origin." Cast your vote at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up at the end of the broadcast.
Coming up next, the leader of a powerful farmers organization who says American agriculture cannot survive with (sic) a foreign and mostly illegal work force.
And "Winning," a new book by the legendary Jack Welch about success and the formula, therefore. Co-authors Jack Welch, Suzy Welch, they will be with me next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Congress next week will take up a proposal to legalize at least a half million illegal alien agriculture workers in this country. My guest tonight represents 3,000 farmers, growers who strongly support the so-called AG Jobs Bill. Tom Nasiff is the president, CEO of Western Growers. That's a group of farmers and growers who are just about half the country's producers.
He says the U.S. agricultural industry could not exist without a foreign work force. Tom Nasiff joins me now. Good to have you here.
TOM NASIFF, WESTERN GROWERS: Very nice to be with you, Lou. Thanks for inviting me.
DOBBS: Agriculture in this country can't survive without a foreign and as we know mostly illegal work force?
NASIFF: I absolutely agree with that. The fact is that we have stood up and said we don't like the fact that our industry cannot exist without a foreign work force. And we don't like the fact that a majority of them are here illegally. So we've asked for a law that will allow us to bring in the men legally so we don't have to worry about whether they're legal or illegal in this country.
DOBBS: Last year down in Yuma, Arizona, where I've spent a considerable amount of time, you asked the Border Patrol to stop a checkpoint because they were interfering with agriculture down there in the midst of the harvest.
NASIFF: What really happened was, at the very beginning of the harvest, I got calls from about a dozen major lettuce growers who said they don't have workers in the field because their buses were being stopped, and they were losing both their legal workforce and those that had come to them with illegal documents.
DOBBS: You know, I'm a fellow that worked along the border in the early -- I shouldn't admit this, in the early '70s -- in which, at that time, Cesar Chavez was bringing forward the United Farm Worker Union. Green cards were coming across legally into this country to drive the harvest. Why won't that system work today?
NASIFF: I think it was working beautifully, but they stopped the system, unfortunately, and that's what's hurt us.
DOBBS: But how do you rationalize -- you know, I don't want anybody to lose money in this country, a grower, a farmer, a guy working for wages in this country as a U.S. citizen, whose wages are being depressed by illegal workers in this country. What do we do?
NASIFF: Well, I think what we do...
DOBBS: Because not everybody can call up the Border Patrol and have the clout like you do to say -- watch that checkpoint go away.
NASIFF: Yes, it didn't go away. I mean, what I asked them to do was, I said, If you're not targeting...
DOBBS: (INAUDIBLE) it went away, you know it went away.
NASIFF: ... if you're not targeting agricultural workers, which they said they were not, we said, why then do have you the checkpoint in front of the fields, rather than on the other side of the fields?
DOBBS: I'm -- I'm -- I'm a simple fellow. I believe in cause and effect. You make a phone call, the checkpoint disappears, only comes back intermittently much later. I understand. Our viewers understand. Smart audience.
But the fact of the matter is, we got to have a solution. And legalizing people because -- every grower using illegal labor is committing a crime, subject to $10,000 fine for every one of them. What's the reason?
NASIFF: As you know, we don't hire people that we know are illegal aliens. We know that a majority of the workforce is illegal, but they come to us with the legal documents. They appear to be. A Social Security card and a driver's license with a photo on it. We do not have the legal right to investigate.
DOBBS: I'm not trying to put anybody in jail or get you a fine. I'm just saying to you, why in the world are we letting business decide who is going to be working, what the immigration policy is, that we're going to ignore immigration policy, and why in the world are we allowing the Mexican government and other Central and South American governments, primarily, to set our immigration policy?
NASIFF: We shouldn't. We should have the legislature stand up and give us a workable solution. You cannot say we're going to take every illegal alien out of this country without at least factoring in the need for some foreign workers in this country. China is coming at us like a freight train. We can't compete with them. They've got 3 percent of our labor costs. They're dumping their products on our market, and our government's doing nothing about it.
DOBBS: Well, you've got some company in one regard, because agriculture in this country is not the only ones getting their butts kicked.
NASIFF: Absolutely.
DOBBS: OK? But we're going to continue to do that if we think it's going to be only based on cost of labor. There's got to be more to this country than the lowest possible common denominator in pay.
NASIFF: And I agree.
DOBBS: And we'll even pay a little more for the lettuce. I'm speaking for all of America now, even without their permission.
We appreciate your being here, Tom. Come back soon. We're going to talk about this a lot more and in depth, extensively.
NASIFF: Thank you very much, Lou.
DOBBS: Tom Nasiff, thank you.
The funeral for Pope John Paul II is just hours away now. Anderson Cooper will be covering the pope's funeral live from the Vatican, and he joins us now. Anderson?
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "360 WITH ANDERSON COOPER:" Good evening, Lou.
Yes, it is just several hours from now. The St. Peter's Basilica, the doors are closed for the first time in quite a while. Those large lines of people we have seen, those millions of people, have gone, filing past the body of Pope John Paul II, have gone.
They are preparing his body, preparing the basilica for these, for the funeral.
As you see, a live shot there. Cardinals are seated. Dignitaries are still allowed to go in and visit the body. But the Roman population, the Poles, the Americans, the people who have come over this last week, the massive outpouring of love for this pope, those people now are holding a candlelight vigil outside on the way to Circus Maximus, which is one of the public viewing areas during this funeral. So many people, millions of people are anticipated to actually try to watch this funeral in person. They've set up various public viewings. There will also be some people outside St. Peter's Basilica.
We're going to be covering all of this, "360," at the top of this hour.
We're also going to take a look, introduce you to a man you probably never heard of before. We all know that the pope was the most-photographed man in history. Well, one man took most of those photographs, more photographs of the pope than anyone else, his official photographer, never more than just a few feet away from the pope. We'll talk with him and hear his unique perspective tonight on "360," Lou.
DOBBS: Looking forward to it, Anderson. Anderson, thank you very much. And that will be coming up in just about 15 minutes right here on CNN, "ANDERSON COOPER 360."
Insurgents are using new tactics to attack our troops in Iraq. General David Grange will be with me when we continue.
That and a great deal more still ahead here. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: As Iraq begins to build a new democracy, there are indications the insurgents fighting desperately against that emerging democracy are changing their tactics. Five days ago, several dozen insurgents attacked Abu Ghraib Prison outside Baghdad. Forty U.S. troops, 12 prisoners were wounded in the conflict. Military officials now say that attack was well planned, well organized, well executed.
And at the same time, U.S. and Iraqi troops are fighting much larger groups of insurgents in other offensive operations around Iraq.
Joining me now is General David Grange. General, is this an act of consolidation on the part of the insurgents? Or is it a sign of weakness?
GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Lou, it's a little bit of both. It's weakness because right now, the insurgents don't have the ability to obtain the support of the local population as much as before, so they cannot move at will and strike at will. They have to husband their resources, which were in short supply, and hit targets that have bigger payoffs and where they have -- can spend a significant amount of time with reconnaissance and planning before they actually strike.
DOBBS: The idea that fewer Americans are being killed, are being wounded, over the course of the -- since the elections, is a sign of great hope, we're all thankful for that. Is it your judgment, based on what you're watching with these change in tactics and the approach of the insurgents now, that we're going to be able to count on that being a reality that will be persistent and long-lived?
GRANGE: I think so, Lou. It's a lot of changes with the capabilities of the Iraqi forces. The U.S. wants to step back. The GIs are stepping back where they can. And they're having an effect. There's a confidence that's slowly building with the Iraqis themselves against the insurgency. And that's affecting the amount of work that the GI has to do overseas.
DOBBS: And the idea, much talked about, certainly, that many of our troops will be able to begin coming home in large numbers this year, given what you are watching and what you know from your sources in the Pentagon, what is your sense of how realistic it is to preserve that hope?
GRANGE: Well, it's going to start soon. But what -- you know, U.S. forces are going to be there for a couple years, I believe, if nothing else in an advisory role, a training role. And what you're seeing now is the transition to just that. I mean, you have patrols of Iraqi forces in Haifa Street and places in Mosul and other places, with just one or two American sergeants or young officers to provide some guidance and some communication with some very capable Iraqi forces.
DOBBS: General David Grange, thank you for that very capable, as always, analysis.
A reminder tonight to vote in our poll -- who do you think should be held responsible for the cost of illegal aliens in this country: U.S. taxpayers, criminal employers, or countries of origin? Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results for you coming up here at the end of the broadcast.
Still ahead the results of our poll, and I'll be talking with Jack and Suzy Welch, it turns out -- I didn't know about Suzy -- we're delighted. We'll be talking about their new book, "Winning." We'll see how they're winning. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest tonight, the former CEO of General Electric, a legend without any equivocation on the expression, and that is of course Jack Welch, his wife Suzy. Good to have you both here.
Jack, I haven't seen you for a while. Why this new book, "Winning."
JACK WELCH, FMR CEO GENERAL ELECTRIC, AUTHOR "WINNING": Well, we talked to 300,000 people over the last three years since I retired. Got lots of insights into how people are thinking, in Q&A sessions as you know I have -- you and I have done programs together.
DOBBS: You usually get paid a lot of money for those, as well.
J. WELCH: So do you.
DOBBS: Well, that's a fair statement as well. J. WELCH: And so we -- Suzy and I had been traveling around the world, we had lots of data. We decided we had some things to address to people.
DOBBS: The idea that you can give -- and I've known you for a long, long time -- how relevant is what you know to a man or woman running a small business, a medium-size business, just out of curiosity, in your own judgment?
J. WELCH: I think what we're talking about here is totally applicable, whether you are running a restaurant -- we talk in the book about a pizzeria down the street, and there's a certain strategy -- I remember a drugstore that competes with its service, it's against the CVS, a big chain two blocks away. And this guy has got service -- delivery to the home, everything you want to buy, he's got his China, his CVS, and he's beating it.
DOBBS: You and Jack working on this book, how long did it take you?
SUZY WELCH, CO-AUTHOR "WINNING": About a year.
DOBBS: About a year. Is that because of your orders, your discipline, or his, or is it a great combination in that regard?
S. WELCH: I think you are looking at two workaholics. So, we both pushed each other. I would say we're both equally guilty about the speed at which we moved.
DOBBS: And, with your family, with your interests, you may be workaholics but you also address the issue of balance. How do you achieve that in your own lives?
S. WELCH: Well, every day a different strategy. We know what matters to us, and so if you have that vision of what really matters -- in our case it's the family and it's work -- and then you just sort of each day you try to create that balance. You don't try to get higher, 20,000 feet, than that. Each day you just sort of tweak the schedule to achieve balance.
DOBBS: Did both of you -- did each of you, like most of us, including myself, learn the importance of balance, by being out of balance with your family life, your personal lives, away from your business life, so much?
J. WELCH: I give her a higher grade for balance than I probably had in a different era. She is a fabulous mother more than anything else. And a fabulous writer as you will see from this book.
DOBBS: Absolutely.
And I have got to ask you, why couldn't you talk him out of this line here on China -- you had to bring up outsourcing. Didn't you try to talk him out of that?
S. WELCH: Well, we'd been watching you so much. And he had such a bone to pick with you. He said, I'm going to write this line for Lou Dobbs.
DOBBS: You know darn well we're going to talk about it. Now, what does that mean? How can you support outsourcing jobs? Jack, you and I have known each other -- we've been friends.
J. WELCH: Lou, you and I come down on a different side of this one every time. And I admire you for your position, wrong as it is.
DOBBS: Well, I admire you for your accomplishments, and I won't even qualify that.
J. WELCH: Well, I won't qualify mine either.
I love the fact that you raise the issue. You have got it into political debate for a moment or two. Then they all ran from it when they realized it wasn't a real issue.
DOBBS: No, they ran from it because they are all political cowards. No, it's quite a difference than because it's not an issue.
J. WELCH: I don't think so.
DOBBS: Because we see it accelerating. You know, one of the things that strikes me here, we are seeing such tepid job growth. You both know, you are very sophisticated people. You look at the trade deficit. I'm, as you know, firmly committed to jobs. I know those jobs are created for lots of important, lots of critical and complex reasons.
But the fact is, GE today has fewer people working for it when you were there. You might say fine, it had a lot fewer when you took over in 19 -- what was it, 1980...?
J. WELCH: 80, right.
DOBBS: ...after your 10 years at your stewardship. The fact is this economy is not driving high-quality jobs as we were promised by some of the faith-based free-marketeers.
J. WELCH: I'm not sure that's true.
DOBBS: Why? It's absolutely true.
J. WELCH: Unemployment is half what it was.
DOBBS: Think of the quality of jobs.
J. WELCH: I don't think -- I think there's a lot of great quality jobs. I think we're growing high tech jobs, we're growing a whole biotech sector. We're innovating in every company -- the jobs in GE today that we have are much higher quality jobs than we had....
DOBBS: Well, let's talk about winning: $162 billion deficit with China.
Suzy, when you look at this issue -- when you look at $162 billion deficit with China, and we talk about corporate America not supporting our basic infrastructure, the community that makes our corporations possible -- education is going to hell in this country. You look at the test scores, you know very well what is happening.
How can we do this -- if we move our factories of production offshore. If, basically NAFTA, the proposed CAFTA, is an outsourcing agreement more than a trade agreement. How can we sustain that? We import more than $3 billion in capital.
S. WELCH: The alternative is a controlled economy, and that doesn't work.
DOBBS: How about the alternative being opening up those markets to an innovative American work force and businesses. You know, Jack, a great business leader like you, you look around. Where are the leaders? Where's the optimism? Where's the drive that says we're going to go out and kick butt?
J. WELCH: I think you ought to look around. You're going to see -- going to see GE, see Procter & Gamble, you'll see...
DOBBS: I'm talking about corporations. Where are those leaders? The business roundtable isn't talking about -- they're saying, poor us, we have to find better labor. We can't do this, we can't do that. They're whining half the time about taxation, they're paying lower taxes than they were 30 years ago by 300 percent. What are we going to do? How are we going to win?
J. WELCH: There is no revenue from government. It all comes from business.
DOBBS: But I hate having no countervailing influence to corporate power in our political system.
J. WELCH: Stop it.
DOBBS: Good to see you.
J. WELCH: Enjoy your pulpit.
DOBBS: Well, it's yours, too.
Thanks for sharing it.
J. WELCH: Thanks a lot. And thanks for talking about "Winning."
DOBBS: I said "Winning" twice.
J. WELCH: Say it one more time.
DOBBS: "Winning." That's how you win.
J. WELCH: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thanks to Jack and to Suzy Welch. And by golly, if we haven't flogged that book enough, there it is, up on the screen again. And, the results of our poll: 66 percent of you saying criminal employers should be responsible for the cost of illegal aliens in the country, 32 percent say the country of origin should be responsible. Only 6 percent of you said taxpayers. The problem is 100 percent of you as taxpayers are bearing the burden.
Thanks for being with us. Pope John Paul II's funeral -- a leading authority on the papacy will be our guest. Please join us.
CNN will have complete coverage of Pope John Paul II's funeral tonight. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" is live from the Vatican -- Anderson.
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