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Nancy Grace

17-Year-Old Girl Accused of Murdering Brother, Sister; Can Michael Jackson Beat the Charges?

Aired April 07, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, think about your own daughter, sweet 17, dreaming of the prom night. Well, not Tracey Dyess. Forget the prom dress. She`s charged with murder. This high school-aged girl allegedly killed her own little 13-year-old brother and 6-year-old sister by setting them on fire.
But why? Cops say revenge on her own stepfather. He`s behind bars on ten counts of sex assault on his own teenage daughter. And man, what a family tree. The mom is a bigamist, and the stepdad`s sister, a convicted killer.

And, tonight, will Michael Jackson beat it? A security guard took the stand and under oath described Michael Jackson caressing, kissing and performing oral sex on a little boy.

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Another bombshell in the Michael Jackson trial. A former Neverland security guard says he saw Jackson performing oral sex on a little boy.

But first to Nebraska, 17-year-old Tracey Dyess. She`s behind bars for murder one for setting the house on fire, leaving her little brother and sister to burn to death. She says it was because her stepdad sexually abused her. So the story is, he abuses her, so she kills her brother and sister? All right. Hold that reasoning.

Tonight, in Omaha, Nebraska, Cass County D.A., Dan Feistner and Dyess`s attorney, Greg Steensland. In New York, clinical social worker Lauren Howard. And in San Francisco, a convicted child molester, Jake Goldenflame.

But first, to Omaha World Herald reporter, Tom Shaw.

Tom Shaw, I`m trying to make sense of this. Bring me up-to-date, friend.

TOM SHAW, OMAHA WORLD HERALD: Well, what has happened is, today, the Cass County attorney has formally charged Tracey Dyess with two counts of murder, one stemming from the death of a 13-year-old sister, the other for a 6-year-old brother. They died in the house fire, as you said, last week in Griswold, Iowa. Griswold is a town of about 1,000 people. It`s about 40 miles east here of Omaha.

Now, she also has been charged with attempted murder today for her mom, Debbie, and her stepfather Brian. Brian, as you mentioned, Brian Street, has been charged with ten counts of felony sex abuse against Tracey. So it hasn`t even been a week here and already there`s numerous charges and a lot of twists and turns.

GRACE: OK, Tom Shaw, let`s get down to the brass tacks. When you say felony abuse, what do you mean by that specifically? Was the girl raped?

SHAW: Well, third-degree -- and Dan can correct me if I`m wrong -- but third-degree felony sexual abuse I do not believe involves any type of penetration such as that. But they did go with the charge of ten counts stemming from the period of November of last year to March 21st, I believe, of this year. And that`s the time that the family has lived in Griswold, Iowa.

GRACE: You know, it`s interesting -- to Dan Feistner, he`s the Cass County district attorney -- that they had lived here for such a short period of time.

Dan, it`s my understanding this family would move from place, to place, to place because they didn`t want the law to catch up with them. Is that true, that there were bad checks? The mom is an alleged bigamist following them, those charges following them from place to place?

DAN FEISTNER, CASS COUNTY ATTORNEY: There is some indication of that. The state at this time has not placed that as a top priority, obviously, at this point, because of the murder-one charges, two counts, along with two counts of attempted murder, and the one count of arson in the first degree, along with ten counts of sexual abuse in the third-degree against Brian Street, have placed those two cases as a priority.

The state has been made aware through some statements by the mother in this case, Debbie Dyess, through interviews with the media and through other mean, not through the state`s investigation, that she, in fact, is married to two individuals at this time, that there may be, as you previously stated, some type of a check-cutting scheme or some type of a theft scheme going on. However...

GRACE: OK. Let me ask you a question, Dan. Dan, let me guess. The mom says she`s totally surprised by the charges of molestation, right?

FEISTNER: I don`t want to comment on what the mother has produced as evidence or testimony at this time. The state has interviewed the mother at this time and has not charged her with any type of acknowledgement of this or any type of participation in this.

GRACE: OK.

Then what about it, Tom Shaw? Tom Shaw, in practically every molestation case I ever prosecuted, the mother was like, "What? What? What? I didn`t know a thing." What about in this case?

SHAW: Well, in this case, Debbie did tell me in an interview that she was surprised when Brian was charged with sexual abuse against Tracey, though she did say Debbie did tell me that the father had been very controlling of the family, the stepfather, Brian Street had been very controlling of the family, and that Tracey and Brian Street did spend quite a bit of time together.

GRACE: OK.

Let me go to Lauren Howard, clinical social worker. If Tracey was seeking revenge against her father, why burn up the little boy and girl?

LAUREN HOWARD, CLINICAL SOCIAL WORKER: Well, that is the problem with this story. And I have to assume there`s a lot of information...

GRACE: Unless she didn`t know they were in there.

HOWARD: Well, she had to know they were in there. First of all, it was a very controlled environment. The kids were not allowed to leave there. They weren`t enrolled in school. They were not really allowed out into the community. He was sort of hiding out. If this was purposely to affect her stepfather, you would have thought she would have gotten the kids out, in fact, which she did not.

GRACE: Yes, so this story is not hanging together?

HOWARD: It`s not holding water. There`s too much here, unknowns.

GRACE: Yes, I smell a rat. On the other hand, we don`t know all the facts yet. And what other motivation could there be for a teenage girl who should be getting ready to go to college, and planning a senior prom, but burned the house down.

HOWARD: No motivation. Just, you know, losing it, literally, frustration tolerance of her situation snapping.

GRACE: Speaking of the mom, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBBIE DYESS, TRACEY DYESS` MOTHER: He got my children to die. She didn`t mean to kill her sister and brother. She was mad at Brian. She didn`t mean to kill them.

She sent me a note that said she was sorry, that she hadn`t been able to tell me anything before. I`ve got to sent her a note that said I loved her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let me go to Greg Steensland, he is Dyess`s attorney.

This is a 17-year-old girl to everybody. She`s facing two charges of murder one. She burned the house down, no doubt about it. In the house, her little brother and sister perished. Her defense, it was out of anger and revenge because her stepfather had been molesting her. Her lawyer is with us tonight to speak on her behalf.

Welcome, Greg Steensland. Will Tracey be tried as an adult or as a juvenile?

GREG STEENSLAND, ATTORNEY FOR TEEN GIRL ACCUSED OF KILLING SIBLINGS: That`s yet to be determined by a district court judge. I have, on Tracey`s behalf, filed a motion with the court to have her transferred back to juvenile court. And the judge that will hear that case will hear all the factors concerned and make a final determination whether Tracey stays in adult court or is tried in juvenile court.

GRACE: Take a look at this, Lauren.

Elizabeth, is this a picture of Tracey? OK. Do you notice how she has made herself look like a boy in this picture?

HOWARD: Absolutely.

GRACE: OK, to me, that is speaking volumes. I know what this means.

HOWARD: It`s the only thing we`ve got.

GRACE: OK, tell me what you think.

HOWARD: Well, clearly one of the things that happens with people who are victim of molestation is they try to de-sex themselves, to look like the opposite sex. And there was that Hilary Swank movie, "Big Boys Don`t Cry." (sic)

Because a person who is molested often feels implicitly -- they feel shame and they feel somehow culpable for it. They`ve brought it on. Right? You`ve seen that, Nancy.

GRACE: You know what made me think that? You know what made me think that is that -- I can`t tell you how many rape victims I represented as a prosecutor.

And one of the first things they would do is either go to the salon or take the scissors themselves and cut their hair. And I never understood that, but I knew it to be true, because it happened over, and over, and over.

Elizabeth, how much time do I have?

Very quickly, Greg Steensland is this young girl`s lawyer. You want this back in juvie court so she will face a lesser sentence. But at 17, double murder, do you really have any hope? She`s lucky that the Supremes, the U.S. Supreme Court, just ruled that she`s to young for the death penalty.

STEENSLAND: Well, that`s irrelevant in Iowa, anyway. We don`t have a death penalty in Iowa. But I think it`s a situation where the court needs to take a look at this. And I think, as her attorney, I would be remiss if I just ignored it and acted as the judge and the jury in the case.

GRACE: I agree.

STEENSLAND: I believe that, on her behalf, a judge needs to look at all of these circumstances and make a determination as to what the best forum for the prosecution of this case is.

GRACE: Well, Dan Feistner, the district attorney in that jurisdiction, Cass County, if you discover that her allegations are true, that her stepfather had molested her, do you think under the law in your jurisdiction that would reduce the charges in your eyes from murder one to possibly voluntary or involuntary?

FEISTNER: I can`t really comment on any type of plea agreements that might be in process at this time. I have been cooperating with both counsel and discussing this matter...

GRACE: That`s not what I asked you. I asked you, would it make a difference to you if this girl had been molested?

FEISTNER: The state has filed the trial information alleging ten counts against Brian Street in this matter with an unnamed minor child. So the state`s proceeded with the belief that there have been at least ten counts while the defendant was in Cass County of sex acts against a minor child.

GRACE: With us tonight, the district attorney as well as the defense attorney in a case that has confounded lawyers and non-lawyers alike. A 17-year-old girl, she should be getting ready for the high-school prom, she should be baby-sitting, talking on the phone. She`s behind bars on double murder of her little brother and sister. She burned the house down, she says, because her stepfather had been abusing her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, about 2 o`clock in the morning, I heard somebody hollering outside the window of our bedroom. And I looked out, and the house across the street was just in flames. It was horrifying. I can`t imagine losing my children to a fire like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY CATHGAR, CHURCH PASTOR: It`s just tremendous shock, all the way from when the house was burning, they were trying to understand why it happened. To make a new start, taking a chance of coming to a community that they thought would be better for their children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

A 17-year-old girl, think back to when you were 17. She`s not in high school. She`s not out on a date. She`s not learning how to drive. She`s not filling out applications for college. She is sitting behind bars, two counts, murder one. Her little brother and sister, ages 13 and 6, dead.

Just looking at these pictures, stunning, incredible. Legal scholars around the country watching the case, trying to determine how she will be tried. Her defense: She was being molested by her stepfather. And where could she go? To her mother, Lauren Howard? She was a bigamist. They were home-schooling these kids.

HOWARD: Well, OK, but, you know, essentially -- no, they weren`t home schooling them. They were home.

GRACE: They claimed -- yes, well-put, well-put. They claimed they were home schooling them so there would not be a paper trail, so this dad wouldn`t get in trouble.

HOWARD: Exactly. But Nancy, we know this family dynamic -- and you don`t want to visit the sins of the father and the son, but if you look at the family history, the parents, the stepfather`s father, the Dixie Duty case gets tied in to this.

I mean, there were some deep, dark secrets in this family that were severely dysfunctional. Who knows how that kind of dysfunction plays out? Well, we know now.

GRACE: To Dan Feistner, the Cass County district attorney, did Tracey show any remorse after this crime? I mean, I just can`t take it in that she meant to kill her 13-year-old, 6-year-old little brother and sister?

FEISTNER: Just two points on that. First of all, the state in its trial information today in the murder, two counts against her, did allege that the defendant did specifically use an accelerant and/or an incendiary device to set these fires...

GRACE: What was that, a Molotov cocktail?

FEISTNER: That matter is still not being disclosed at this time because it`s part of the investigation. However, the state immediately knew that this fire was not an accidental and it would state that, because of the intense cooperation with the DCI and the Iowa state fire marshals, it became very apparent that this was not an accidental fire early on in the investigation, that there appeared to be possible suspects.

There were witnesses, direct witnesses. In fact, the chief of police of Griswold lived just across the street. He was one of the -- not just witnesses...

GRACE: Remorse, remorse. Did she show any remorse?

FEISTNER: Right. I`m getting to that. One of the witnesses -- some of the witnesses did seem to indicate that she was standing off and away. And today, the state filed a resistance to defense counsel`s motion to transfer this matter...

GRACE: My God, man. Tell me. Did she show remorse? Was she crying? Did she throw herself on the ground? Did she say, "I`m sorry"?

FEISTNER: In that resistance, did sort of aver that she not show the kind of remorse that an individual would show, because she was distant and away from the other individuals.

GRACE: OK, OK, OK, thank you.

Greg Steensland, that`s going to help you. I mean, that`s going to hurt you deeply, if that is true, for her defense.

Let me get my producer, Elizabeth. Can you please show me a shot of the house at a distance? I want to look at this house. I want to see how that fire started. Oh, that`s not a distance shot. This is a shot of the home -- OK.

Well, looks to me, right there, fire goes up, that something was thrown in the window, probably a projectile, such as a Molotov cocktail, in that bottom window and it burned up.

To Greg Steensland, where was the little brother and sister in the home?

STEENSLAND: I`m not entirely certain. It`s my understanding that the little brother was in his room and that the sister was in the living room on the couch.

GRACE: Where was the stepfather, the one who allegedly molested her?

STEENSLAND: My understanding is -- and once again, we`re still investigating all the details -- but my understanding is, he was in his room.

GRACE: In his room as well?

STEENSLAND: In the bedroom with Debbie.

GRACE: What kind of a criminal history, if any, did the father have?

STEENSLAND: I`m not sure of all the criminal history. And I guess I`m not one to comment...

GRACE: Just give me a tiny taste.

STEENSLAND: Well, I think he`s got some charges out of Missouri. But I haven`t found anything that indicates he`s got sexual-related charges in the past, but I`m still looking into that.

GRACE: To Tom Shaw with the Omaha World Herald, did she ever tell anyone her stepdad was abusing her, and did the family move around a lot?

SHAW: Well, yes, the family did move around a lot, as you had mentioned. Debbie had told me that the stepfather, Brian Street, would move the family any time he thought that law enforcement was maybe on to some of his check-writing schemes, I guess.

But essentially in this case, there has been -- Debbie has told me that Brian would stand next to the phone when Tracey would be speaking to her twin sister. Tracey has a twin sister, Amy, who lives in Arizona. But that Brian would be there when she`s talking on the phone so that it was really just small talk, things about the weather and whatnot.

And that also the father, the stepfather, Brian Street, controlled when the family kind of...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: So does that mean she did not tell anybody he was abusing her, yes, no?

SHAW: I have not been told by anyone that she told anyone about the abuse.

GRACE: OK. Tom, how do they know the fire was intentionally set? What do you know about how the fire was set?

SHAW: Well, right now, as Dan had mentioned, they had charged her with first-degree arson using what they say is an accelerant or an incendiary device. Some people in the town of Griswold have their theories about what that was, but I don`t know if anything`s really been...

GRACE: What`s the theory? What`s the theory?

SHAW: Well, there`s a theory that it was gasoline that was used, but, again that`s -- as far as I know, that`s...

GRACE: You mean gasoline thrown in the window or poured in the home?

SHAW: Again, that is something that has not come up in my reporting.

GRACE: Well, you know, having done many arson investigation, it`s very clear normally when an accelerant is used. By the wording, you`re telling me, accelerant and incendiary device, that says to me, Molotov cocktail, because it`s a device and an accelerant put together. It could be anything from a mason jar full of gasoline and thrown. That`s what a Molotov cocktail is.

I see the windows are thrown out, and the fire is at a window, two and two equals four. I`m just guessing. When will this go to court, to Tom Shaw?

SHAW: Well, there is a hearing next week, April 14th, where a judge will decide the defense -- Greg`s motion to move the case to juvenile court. That will be the first -- or that will be next week.

GRACE: OK. And last, before we go to break, with me is a convicted child molester, Jake Goldenflame.

Very quickly, Jake, what do you make of this stepfather moving the kids around from place to place, never leaving a paper trail, never having his kids in school, and monitoring their comings and goings?

JAKE GOLDENFLAME, CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER: It`s what I would expect of a father who is preying upon his daughter repeatedly to keep from being captured, and known, and discovered.

GRACE: Everybody, we are going to a break. And we are going to keep you appraised of what`s going on in this courtroom regarding a 17-year-old girl on trial for two counts of murder one.

And now, to "Trial Tracking" -- I believe I`m going to "Trial Tracking."

A Texas high school football coach shot today at the high school. Fighting for his life tonight in a Tyler, Texas, hospital. As of tonight, police have alleged the shooter, 45-year-old Jeffrey Robertson in custody. Police say Robertson shot the coach, 37-year-old Gary Kinne, Jr., with an AK-47. Who`s against gun control, AK-47? Because they disagreed on how the team should be coached. The alleged shooter`s son on the football team.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Bombshell testimony in the Michael Jackson trial.

We`ve only got a few moments to break. Very quickly to Jane Velez- Mitchell, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent at the courthouse.

Bring me up-to-date, friend.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Nancy, shocking sexually graphic testimony in the Jackson case today from two disgruntled former Neverland employees.

A security guard who testified he once saw Michael Jackson -- he looked through a window, saw Michael Jackson naked with the `93 accuser. And at that time, what he saw was Michael Jackson caressing this boy who was naked, then sucking on his nipples, and then dropping down, he claims, and performing oral sex on the boy, the `93 accuser.

Now a former Neverland maid then took the stand and testified she saw Michael Jackson with this same boy, the `93 accuser, and that he kissed him on the mouth and touched him in the groin area on top of his pants.

But I have to tell you, Tom Mesereau doing a brilliant job on cross, explaining that these two sold their story to the tabloid and also lost a lawsuit against Michael Jackson for wrongful termination.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, Jane Velez-Mitchell, during the commercial break, I`m going to wash your mouth out with soap, young lady. We`ll be right back.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

As tens of thousands of Poles head to Rome for Pope John Paul II`s funeral, those who stayed behind paid their own tribute today. In Krakow, one million people set out in a silent march in homage to the Polish-born Pope. The huge crowd gathered on the edge of the city for a mass in his memory.

The painkiller Bextra has been taken off the market. Drug maker Pfizer has suspended sales at the request of the FDA. In addition to possible risks of hearts attacks and strokes, government regulators cited a risk of life-threatening skin reactions. The FDA also wants Celebrex and Vioxx to carry stronger heart-risk warnings.

And better fill up now. Gas prices are expected to peak at $2.35 in just a few weeks. The cost of gasoline is already at record levels with motorists paying an average of $2.22 a gallon.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: People say, "Why is he always with children?" Well, I was raised in a world with adults. When kids were playing, in bed at sleep at night, I was out doing clubs. I was doing club dates, 3:00 in the morning. The striptease would come on after us. You know, I was performing, and we didn`t have friends.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was from the Michael Jackson rebuttal that was shot by a Jackson staffer.

Welcome back, I`m Nancy Grace. Straight back out to the Santa Maria courthouse.

Standing by, from "Celebrity Justice," Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, just give me a nutshell. Who was on the stand, what was the high and the low?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, these two former Neverland employees were on the stand. And the most dramatic moment for the prosecution, this very, very graphic testimony. What struck all of us was how this former Neverland security guard talked about how passionate -- he used the word "passion," "passionately" touching this boy all over his body. This is what he said he saw Michael Jackson doing.

The low point for the prosecution was the fact that both of these people have a lot of baggage. And Tom Mesereau was masterful in opening up the bags and letting the jury see what`s in them. And what`s in them is that both of these people sold their story to the tabloids. Both of these people were part of a group of former Neverland employees who sued for wrongful determination and lost. In fact, a million dollar judgment-plus was awarded against them on behalf of Michael Jackson.

Michael Jackson turned around, countersued, charged they stole stuff, in the case of the former maid, a sketch that he had purportedly done of Elvis Presley. I mean, this gets wilder and wilder. And she said she found it in the garbage.

Nevertheless, the jury, right here in this courthouse in Santa Maria way back when, awarded Michael Jackson $25,000 and $35,000 against these two who haven`t paid these amounts. And the list goes on and on. These are people with a lot of baggage.

GRACE: But to Jason Oshins, defense attorney here in the New York area, Jason, what`s going to stick with the jury? You`ve got the maid stating what she observed. You`ve got the former security guard stating he observed inadvertently oral sex with a little boy. Like this jury`s going to care that they were later fired and had a lawsuit?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s really the key question. The prosecution, obviously, is enjoying this sensationalism of being able to...

GRACE: That`s not true. That`s not true.

OSHINS: ... graphically describing oral sex.

GRACE: No. No, I really resent that, because you can say that about every child molestation I ever prosecuted. I didn`t enjoy this sensationalism. It made me sick.

OSHINS: No, look in corroboration with some of these witnesses for the prosecution coming forward. As Jane has indicated, a lot of them have baggage. They have significant baggage. And Tom Mesereau is dissecting them properly, planting the seed inside the jury`s mind...

GRACE: I`ve got a question for you.

OSHINS: ... that these people are involved in a conspiracy for money.

GRACE: Who do you think Jackson surrounded himself with, nuns, and priests, and virgins? No, you take your witnesses like you find them.

OSHINS: No doubt. But obviously the baggage that comes with them is what the defense is going to use to dissect these witnesses to show that they have an all ulterior motive. You`ve got to go, as the defense, and work against the weakness of the prosecution. And you`ve got to work at it hard so that you`re planting a seed for the jurors to think that there is something more than going on than what meets the eye as opposed to just the graphic testimony which is certainly eye-catching and sensational.

GRACE: OK, thank you, Professor Oshins.

OSHINS: Thank you.

GRACE: But my question was, what`s the jury going to take home with them tonight? While they`re at home, eating their dinner, do you think they`re going to believe, "Gee, this maid had a civil lawsuit filed against her by Michael Jackson"? Or will they be thinking, "Good lord, they saw Michael Jackson having oral sex with a little boy"?

OSHINS: Well, certainly, it begs the question of why some of these allegations didn`t come out earlier as it relates to these witnesses for the prosecution, bringing them forth now, and their objectives, whether it`s money, working against the judgment...

GRACE: OK, I understand you don`t want to answer the question.

OSHINS: Well, that`s the key.

GRACE: That`s OK.

OSHINS: Are they going to take home Sneddon`s accusations?

GRACE: It`s not Sneddon`s accusations, Jason. It`s a little boy`s accusations and an eyewitness.

OSHINS: Well, we`re talking about the witnesses brought forth by the prosecution now. Will the jury take home the sensationalism of their allegations, or will they take home the defense`s use, properly, of dissecting them for what their motives might be?

GRACE: OK. Well-put, Robert Gottleib, you want to weigh in?

ROBERT GOTTLEIB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, and all I can say is, thank God for the jury system which includes cross-examination. What Jane pointed out, and so that people watching can understand clearly, there was graphic testimony on direct examination. On cross-examination, Chacon, the security guard, says, it was part of a $16 million wrongful determination suit.

There was a order that all the employees who lost the case pay $1.5 million for Jackson`s legal fees, motive to embellish and lie. And also that same jury concluded that this security guard, who the prosecution is relying on, stole $25,000 worth of property and acted with malice and fraud. Furthermore, he never came forward until somebody decided to bring a civil lawsuit against Jackson.

Nancy, you know the jury tonight is going home and is saying, and is thinking, "Well, on direct examination, they were ready to say, guilty, guilty, guilty. Now after cross, not so fast." That`s where we are.

GRACE: Well, let`s go to the source. Jane Velez-Mitchell, how did the jury look during direct and during cross?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, once again, this jury gets the deadpan award. It`s very hard to read them. But I have to point out, I don`t think it`s so much what they`re taking home tonight. It`s what they take home at the end of the trial.

Tom Mesereau dropped a lot of landmines today that I think he`s going to try to exploit during the defense case. He asked a lot of questions, like, "Didn`t you tell your landlady" -- this is of the ex-security guard - - "that you`re going to be driving around in a Mercedes and you`re going to have $2 million in your pocket by the time your lawsuit`s over with Michael Jackson?" He says, "No." Well, you can be sure that he`s going to probably bring that landlady up in his defense to say that. So I`m just saying it`s not over yet, in terms of these particular witnesses.

GRACE: Oh, yes. It ain`t over yet, friend.

But, remember, Mesereau promised a whole lot of stuff in opening statement about all the grifters trying to take advantage of Michael Jackson that have already been disproved. I can think of four promises in the defense opening statement that`s already been disproved. So we`ll just wait and see what Mesereau brings up.

I want to go quickly to Jake Goldenflame. Goldenflame is a convicted child molester. Jake...

GOLDENFLAME: Right.

GRACE: ... you`ve been listening to the facts in the Michael Jackson case.

GOLDENFLAME: Right.

GRACE: A lot has been made of the grooming of these young boys. Now, when I was prosecuting, we didn`t have that word as it applied to child molestation.

GOLDENFLAME: Yes.

GRACE: Explain that to us and what your interpretation of Michael Jackson`s actions is.

GOLDENFLAME: In order to get to a child victim, any of us who become child sex predators always go through the same steps. And one of those steps is that step called grooming, which has several parts to it.

It`s a part of convincing the child that you`re his friend. It`s a part of doing things, generosity to the child, so the child feels grateful to you, maybe even indebted to you. It finally takes the form of inviting the child to share a secret with you or that you`re going to share a secret with them that will be our secret from then on.

It`s a carefully calculated strategy to disarm the child from whatever resistances they might otherwise have so that you can have your way with them. That`s grooming.

As far as Mr. Jackson is concerned, all I can go on is what the evidence has indicated so far. And so far, the evidence would suggest very strongly to me he fits the pattern.

GRACE: Well, you know, I know that this maid who was bringing in about $7 an hour -- it`s like David and Goliath up against a superstar like Michael Jackson.

GOLDENFLAME: Yes.

GRACE: And I know this security guard can be attacked on cross, rightly so. But one thing that sticks in my mind is that 24-year-old youth worker that claims to have been a molestation victim of Jackson`s when he was a little boy. That spoke volumes to me, Mr. Goldenflame.

GOLDENFLAME: I hear something else, too. One of the things that all of us do when we`re still active predators, we secretly want to get caught. And we drop hints. We do things that, if somebody were really listening carefully, they would understand there`s some message there this person is sending.

I think that sometimes when I watch Jackson, and some of the things that he does, I can`t help but wonder, "Does this apply to you?" He calls himself Peter Pan, or a Peter Pan figure, and the word "pan" means all. Peter All?

Mr. Jackson, your anagrams may be showing.

GRACE: Well, I tell you, something not as complicated as that.

The signals, Lauren Howard, that he has been giving for so long about...

HOWARD: For so long.

GRACE: ... about sleeping with little boys.

HOWARD: For so long. His entire premise about children being the solution to world peace and sort of a rationalization for his intimate behavior with children. It`s almost as if his conscience is trying to deflect his lack of impulse control. And that`s what he`s been doing.

GRACE: And I just wonder, how much money and how much celebrity does it take to make people totally ignore what`s right in front of their nose?

HOWARD: I don`t think it`s -- well, oh, you mean in terms of people? There`s no question, people ignoring him. I mean, who are these parents letting their children have sleepovers with a grown man?

GRACE: Well, the whole word -- I mean, there you thousands of fans showing up at the courthouse screaming, "Michael, look at me!" I mean, they don`t care anything about the alleged victim.

HOWARD: It so much speaks to a sickness in our society that that is the case. But it is the case, and we know it is.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with more from the Michael Jackson trial. We are live in Santa Maria, California. Please, stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHERINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S MOTHER: Well, whoever is a parent, if someone came and molested your son, would you ask them for money? Would you? You can`t answer me? No, you wouldn`t ask for money, would you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON: The moment I started breaking the all-time records of the biggest selling albums of all-time, they called me weird overnight, strange, wacko. You know, they said I`m a girl, I`m homosexual. "He wants to buy the elephant man`s bones. He sleeps in a hypobaric chamber." None of that stuff is true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Santa Maria at the Michael Jackson trial. Let`s go out to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Today on the stand, an ex-security guard of Jackson`s. Elizabeth, can you throw up the screen for the viewers?

"I saw Mr. Jackson caressing the boy`s hair, he was kissing him, sucking his nipples." OK, that hurt the defense.

Let`s go to the next one, Elizabeth. Still, the same witness on the stand. "Put the little boy`s penis in his mouth," OK, strike two. Here we go. Last one, Elizabeth, "Not long, but passionate. And Mr. Jackson`s hands went down to the boy`s crotch area."

OK, Jane Velez-Mitchell, you`re still telling me that the jury was deadpan, no emotion? I nearly fell off my chair, and I`m 2,000 miles away.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to point out that today the jury and the judge, both a couple of minutes late coming into court, and there was some speculation that the judge may have admonished the jury about talking to each other.

Because there had been a rumor swirling around here that got published that they were overheard in their little recess area joking and mimicking one of the people who took the stand and make accusations against Michael Jackson. No confirmation on that, but it`s certainly possible the judge may have reminded them not to talk to about the case. And that would certainly account for their more somber attitude.

Although, I think that just because they`re somber and quiet doesn`t mean that they`re not impacted by this testimony. They don`t have to cry to be impacted. They could quietly, very, very -- be very disturbed by this testimony, just very quietly and very privately.

GRACE: Jason Oshins, do you think it`s to a point where Michael Jackson has to take the stand?

OSHINS: I don`t know if we`re at that point yet.

GRACE: I don`t either.

OSHINS: No, I think it`s more important to continue what Mr. Mesereau is doing, which is dissecting these witnesses. You know, the real substantive issue is, what are these people, these witnesses? Is it really a sense of overkill by the prosecution to try and just keep on and keep on? And is he actually hurting this case by having these witnesses that have significant garbage and luggage in their past that the defense is able to go after?

GRACE: Well, hold on. Talk about garbage and luggage in your past. There`s Michael Jackson getting his star on the Walk of Fame. If I`m incorrect, correct me, but isn`t that where he took a chimp as a date?

OSHINS: No one ever said that Michael Jackson wasn`t freaky. There`s no doubt about it.

GRACE: Elizabeth says yes, and she knows her Jackson.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Let me go to Robert Gottleib. Will Jackson have to take the stand, trial strategy-wise?

GOTTLEIB: No, the answer is about absolutely not. A moment ago you properly said you fell off your chair when you heard that the witness testified about those three observations.

Let me suggest to you and ask you, wouldn`t you say if this guy, who is not a victim of the abuse, and therefore could not have been traumatized or shocked, if he really saw this happen, why didn`t he call the police? Why didn`t he call the mother? Why didn`t he call child protective services?

When you think about his silence all those years, coupled with all of the other motivations for him now to lie, you`ve got to say, pick yourself off the floor and say, he is not worthy of one ounce of belief.

GRACE: You know what? I would cross him like crazy on why he never said anything. But another issue is, why do people remain silent ever? Why do mothers -- like, did you hear the story earlier, Robert...

GOTTLEIB: Yes.

GRACE: ... about the 17-year-old girl who burned the house down?

GOTTLEIB: Yes.

GRACE: And the mom is like, "Well, I didn`t know."

GOTTLEIB: They are tied into the case. They are victims themselves.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Robert, it happens all the time.

GOTTLEIB: Here, this guy is supposedly an independent observer.

GRACE: No, he`s not independent. He worked for Jackson. This maid made $7 an hour.

GOTTLEIB: But he wasn`t related to this fellow.

GRACE: Working for -- you know what? We`ll settle it. We`ll go to the shrink.

Lauren Howard. Why do people not speak out?

HOWARD: Shame, shame, shame, shame, power, abuse of power. No one wants to stand up against an icon like Michael Jackson. It is much easier to walk past a bleeding man on the street than to help him out. And people do it all the time. And it`s not the right thing to do, but the motivation has to do with self-preservation. People don`t blow the whistle. They don`t.

GRACE: When I think, particularly, about the position the maid was in, $7 an hour...

HOWARD: Right, and she`s going to jeopardize that.

GRACE: ... going up after Michael Jackson, a superstar.

HOWARD: Forget it. Not going to happen.

GRACE: What people will do to hold on to a job they think they need.

HOWARD: Oh, yes.

GRACE: A quick break, everyone.

But I want to go to "Trial Tracking": The father of a Colorado serial killer, hawking DVDs of his son`s videotape account of how he lured women to his house and strangled them. Well, I guess father knows best.

Richard Paul White got life without parole for killing three people - I guess they don`t have the death penalty in that jurisdiction -- but claims he killed three others and buried them all over the state.

Well, catch this. The father plans to sell a second DVD this summer of his son talking to God after being interrogated by police. The killer`s father says some of the proceeds will go to a fund set up for his son`s victim`s children, funneled through him, of course.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY GONZALES, FATHER OF MURDER VICTIM: This man is sick. I mean, when I was in court last year when they sentenced Richard White, just seeing him trying to say that he was sorry for what his son did, right -- you know, I can just feel that he was lying. I mean, he is just as sick as his son.

He`s bringing up the wounds up again, you know? I mean, I`m trying to heal. This jerk all of a sudden wants to have a DVD? He`s trying to justify by saying that maybe people will understand his son? Come on, you know, that is a copout.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I agree with the victim`s father.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Mathew Allor, missing since November `98 from Leesville, Louisiana. In ten days, this little boy will turn 11. If you have any information on Mathew Allor, call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, 1-800-THE-LOST. Please, help us.

GRACE: I`m going to quickly go to a convicted child molester, Jake Goldenflame. What are the six steps of a pedophile?

GOLDENFLAME: It begins by hunting for the child who`s lost, lonely, and behind the pack. It goes on to befriending the child, deceiving them, that you`re going to be a friend. It goes on to wounding the child by asking them about sexuality, which they can`t possibly handle and it leaves them feeling vulnerable.

They distract the child by talking about sex that somebody else did that they knew of one time. They offer it as a temptation to the child. And finally they ask the child in that moment of temptation if the child might be willing to try this sometime. And if they even get an answer of maybe, they strike. Those are the six steps.

GRACE: Lauren, final thought?

HOWARD: Regardless of whether or not you find the witnesses and all this stuff that`s being introduced, people having alternative motives, there are so many things with the Michael Jackson case, between the porn and his freakishness, and his behavior, and his attitude, and his sleepovers with boys, and the allegations.

There`s so much of it, Nancy, that, at the end of the day, whether some people are lying or not won`t matter because there`s enough of it that not everybody can be lying. It`s just too compelling. It`s too much.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, I`ve got 30 seconds left. What comes up next?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, up next, more former Michael Jackson employees who are going to take the stand. The person who could be next, Bob Jones. He was an executive with MJJ Productions, a communications director. He`s kind of a wild card. We don`t know exactly what he is going to say, but he knows a lot. He`s been around Michael Jackson for 20 years.

GRACE: Wow, Jane Velez-Mitchell, when you say a wild card, that means, translation, field day for the defense on cross-examination. Thank you, friend, Jane Velez-Mitchell there at the courthouse.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you as always is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home tonight.

Coming up next, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I`ll see you right here tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. I`ll be shooting from Atlanta tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired April 7, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, think about your own daughter, sweet 17, dreaming of the prom night. Well, not Tracey Dyess. Forget the prom dress. She`s charged with murder. This high school-aged girl allegedly killed her own little 13-year-old brother and 6-year-old sister by setting them on fire.
But why? Cops say revenge on her own stepfather. He`s behind bars on ten counts of sex assault on his own teenage daughter. And man, what a family tree. The mom is a bigamist, and the stepdad`s sister, a convicted killer.

And, tonight, will Michael Jackson beat it? A security guard took the stand and under oath described Michael Jackson caressing, kissing and performing oral sex on a little boy.

Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Another bombshell in the Michael Jackson trial. A former Neverland security guard says he saw Jackson performing oral sex on a little boy.

But first to Nebraska, 17-year-old Tracey Dyess. She`s behind bars for murder one for setting the house on fire, leaving her little brother and sister to burn to death. She says it was because her stepdad sexually abused her. So the story is, he abuses her, so she kills her brother and sister? All right. Hold that reasoning.

Tonight, in Omaha, Nebraska, Cass County D.A., Dan Feistner and Dyess`s attorney, Greg Steensland. In New York, clinical social worker Lauren Howard. And in San Francisco, a convicted child molester, Jake Goldenflame.

But first, to Omaha World Herald reporter, Tom Shaw.

Tom Shaw, I`m trying to make sense of this. Bring me up-to-date, friend.

TOM SHAW, OMAHA WORLD HERALD: Well, what has happened is, today, the Cass County attorney has formally charged Tracey Dyess with two counts of murder, one stemming from the death of a 13-year-old sister, the other for a 6-year-old brother. They died in the house fire, as you said, last week in Griswold, Iowa. Griswold is a town of about 1,000 people. It`s about 40 miles east here of Omaha.

Now, she also has been charged with attempted murder today for her mom, Debbie, and her stepfather Brian. Brian, as you mentioned, Brian Street, has been charged with ten counts of felony sex abuse against Tracey. So it hasn`t even been a week here and already there`s numerous charges and a lot of twists and turns.

GRACE: OK, Tom Shaw, let`s get down to the brass tacks. When you say felony abuse, what do you mean by that specifically? Was the girl raped?

SHAW: Well, third-degree -- and Dan can correct me if I`m wrong -- but third-degree felony sexual abuse I do not believe involves any type of penetration such as that. But they did go with the charge of ten counts stemming from the period of November of last year to March 21st, I believe, of this year. And that`s the time that the family has lived in Griswold, Iowa.

GRACE: You know, it`s interesting -- to Dan Feistner, he`s the Cass County district attorney -- that they had lived here for such a short period of time.

Dan, it`s my understanding this family would move from place, to place, to place because they didn`t want the law to catch up with them. Is that true, that there were bad checks? The mom is an alleged bigamist following them, those charges following them from place to place?

DAN FEISTNER, CASS COUNTY ATTORNEY: There is some indication of that. The state at this time has not placed that as a top priority, obviously, at this point, because of the murder-one charges, two counts, along with two counts of attempted murder, and the one count of arson in the first degree, along with ten counts of sexual abuse in the third-degree against Brian Street, have placed those two cases as a priority.

The state has been made aware through some statements by the mother in this case, Debbie Dyess, through interviews with the media and through other mean, not through the state`s investigation, that she, in fact, is married to two individuals at this time, that there may be, as you previously stated, some type of a check-cutting scheme or some type of a theft scheme going on. However...

GRACE: OK. Let me ask you a question, Dan. Dan, let me guess. The mom says she`s totally surprised by the charges of molestation, right?

FEISTNER: I don`t want to comment on what the mother has produced as evidence or testimony at this time. The state has interviewed the mother at this time and has not charged her with any type of acknowledgement of this or any type of participation in this.

GRACE: OK.

Then what about it, Tom Shaw? Tom Shaw, in practically every molestation case I ever prosecuted, the mother was like, "What? What? What? I didn`t know a thing." What about in this case?

SHAW: Well, in this case, Debbie did tell me in an interview that she was surprised when Brian was charged with sexual abuse against Tracey, though she did say Debbie did tell me that the father had been very controlling of the family, the stepfather, Brian Street had been very controlling of the family, and that Tracey and Brian Street did spend quite a bit of time together.

GRACE: OK.

Let me go to Lauren Howard, clinical social worker. If Tracey was seeking revenge against her father, why burn up the little boy and girl?

LAUREN HOWARD, CLINICAL SOCIAL WORKER: Well, that is the problem with this story. And I have to assume there`s a lot of information...

GRACE: Unless she didn`t know they were in there.

HOWARD: Well, she had to know they were in there. First of all, it was a very controlled environment. The kids were not allowed to leave there. They weren`t enrolled in school. They were not really allowed out into the community. He was sort of hiding out. If this was purposely to affect her stepfather, you would have thought she would have gotten the kids out, in fact, which she did not.

GRACE: Yes, so this story is not hanging together?

HOWARD: It`s not holding water. There`s too much here, unknowns.

GRACE: Yes, I smell a rat. On the other hand, we don`t know all the facts yet. And what other motivation could there be for a teenage girl who should be getting ready to go to college, and planning a senior prom, but burned the house down.

HOWARD: No motivation. Just, you know, losing it, literally, frustration tolerance of her situation snapping.

GRACE: Speaking of the mom, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBBIE DYESS, TRACEY DYESS` MOTHER: He got my children to die. She didn`t mean to kill her sister and brother. She was mad at Brian. She didn`t mean to kill them.

She sent me a note that said she was sorry, that she hadn`t been able to tell me anything before. I`ve got to sent her a note that said I loved her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let me go to Greg Steensland, he is Dyess`s attorney.

This is a 17-year-old girl to everybody. She`s facing two charges of murder one. She burned the house down, no doubt about it. In the house, her little brother and sister perished. Her defense, it was out of anger and revenge because her stepfather had been molesting her. Her lawyer is with us tonight to speak on her behalf.

Welcome, Greg Steensland. Will Tracey be tried as an adult or as a juvenile?

GREG STEENSLAND, ATTORNEY FOR TEEN GIRL ACCUSED OF KILLING SIBLINGS: That`s yet to be determined by a district court judge. I have, on Tracey`s behalf, filed a motion with the court to have her transferred back to juvenile court. And the judge that will hear that case will hear all the factors concerned and make a final determination whether Tracey stays in adult court or is tried in juvenile court.

GRACE: Take a look at this, Lauren.

Elizabeth, is this a picture of Tracey? OK. Do you notice how she has made herself look like a boy in this picture?

HOWARD: Absolutely.

GRACE: OK, to me, that is speaking volumes. I know what this means.

HOWARD: It`s the only thing we`ve got.

GRACE: OK, tell me what you think.

HOWARD: Well, clearly one of the things that happens with people who are victim of molestation is they try to de-sex themselves, to look like the opposite sex. And there was that Hilary Swank movie, "Big Boys Don`t Cry." (sic)

Because a person who is molested often feels implicitly -- they feel shame and they feel somehow culpable for it. They`ve brought it on. Right? You`ve seen that, Nancy.

GRACE: You know what made me think that? You know what made me think that is that -- I can`t tell you how many rape victims I represented as a prosecutor.

And one of the first things they would do is either go to the salon or take the scissors themselves and cut their hair. And I never understood that, but I knew it to be true, because it happened over, and over, and over.

Elizabeth, how much time do I have?

Very quickly, Greg Steensland is this young girl`s lawyer. You want this back in juvie court so she will face a lesser sentence. But at 17, double murder, do you really have any hope? She`s lucky that the Supremes, the U.S. Supreme Court, just ruled that she`s to young for the death penalty.

STEENSLAND: Well, that`s irrelevant in Iowa, anyway. We don`t have a death penalty in Iowa. But I think it`s a situation where the court needs to take a look at this. And I think, as her attorney, I would be remiss if I just ignored it and acted as the judge and the jury in the case.

GRACE: I agree.

STEENSLAND: I believe that, on her behalf, a judge needs to look at all of these circumstances and make a determination as to what the best forum for the prosecution of this case is.

GRACE: Well, Dan Feistner, the district attorney in that jurisdiction, Cass County, if you discover that her allegations are true, that her stepfather had molested her, do you think under the law in your jurisdiction that would reduce the charges in your eyes from murder one to possibly voluntary or involuntary?

FEISTNER: I can`t really comment on any type of plea agreements that might be in process at this time. I have been cooperating with both counsel and discussing this matter...

GRACE: That`s not what I asked you. I asked you, would it make a difference to you if this girl had been molested?

FEISTNER: The state has filed the trial information alleging ten counts against Brian Street in this matter with an unnamed minor child. So the state`s proceeded with the belief that there have been at least ten counts while the defendant was in Cass County of sex acts against a minor child.

GRACE: With us tonight, the district attorney as well as the defense attorney in a case that has confounded lawyers and non-lawyers alike. A 17-year-old girl, she should be getting ready for the high-school prom, she should be baby-sitting, talking on the phone. She`s behind bars on double murder of her little brother and sister. She burned the house down, she says, because her stepfather had been abusing her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, about 2 o`clock in the morning, I heard somebody hollering outside the window of our bedroom. And I looked out, and the house across the street was just in flames. It was horrifying. I can`t imagine losing my children to a fire like that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TONY CATHGAR, CHURCH PASTOR: It`s just tremendous shock, all the way from when the house was burning, they were trying to understand why it happened. To make a new start, taking a chance of coming to a community that they thought would be better for their children.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.

A 17-year-old girl, think back to when you were 17. She`s not in high school. She`s not out on a date. She`s not learning how to drive. She`s not filling out applications for college. She is sitting behind bars, two counts, murder one. Her little brother and sister, ages 13 and 6, dead.

Just looking at these pictures, stunning, incredible. Legal scholars around the country watching the case, trying to determine how she will be tried. Her defense: She was being molested by her stepfather. And where could she go? To her mother, Lauren Howard? She was a bigamist. They were home-schooling these kids.

HOWARD: Well, OK, but, you know, essentially -- no, they weren`t home schooling them. They were home.

GRACE: They claimed -- yes, well-put, well-put. They claimed they were home schooling them so there would not be a paper trail, so this dad wouldn`t get in trouble.

HOWARD: Exactly. But Nancy, we know this family dynamic -- and you don`t want to visit the sins of the father and the son, but if you look at the family history, the parents, the stepfather`s father, the Dixie Duty case gets tied in to this.

I mean, there were some deep, dark secrets in this family that were severely dysfunctional. Who knows how that kind of dysfunction plays out? Well, we know now.

GRACE: To Dan Feistner, the Cass County district attorney, did Tracey show any remorse after this crime? I mean, I just can`t take it in that she meant to kill her 13-year-old, 6-year-old little brother and sister?

FEISTNER: Just two points on that. First of all, the state in its trial information today in the murder, two counts against her, did allege that the defendant did specifically use an accelerant and/or an incendiary device to set these fires...

GRACE: What was that, a Molotov cocktail?

FEISTNER: That matter is still not being disclosed at this time because it`s part of the investigation. However, the state immediately knew that this fire was not an accidental and it would state that, because of the intense cooperation with the DCI and the Iowa state fire marshals, it became very apparent that this was not an accidental fire early on in the investigation, that there appeared to be possible suspects.

There were witnesses, direct witnesses. In fact, the chief of police of Griswold lived just across the street. He was one of the -- not just witnesses...

GRACE: Remorse, remorse. Did she show any remorse?

FEISTNER: Right. I`m getting to that. One of the witnesses -- some of the witnesses did seem to indicate that she was standing off and away. And today, the state filed a resistance to defense counsel`s motion to transfer this matter...

GRACE: My God, man. Tell me. Did she show remorse? Was she crying? Did she throw herself on the ground? Did she say, "I`m sorry"?

FEISTNER: In that resistance, did sort of aver that she not show the kind of remorse that an individual would show, because she was distant and away from the other individuals.

GRACE: OK, OK, OK, thank you.

Greg Steensland, that`s going to help you. I mean, that`s going to hurt you deeply, if that is true, for her defense.

Let me get my producer, Elizabeth. Can you please show me a shot of the house at a distance? I want to look at this house. I want to see how that fire started. Oh, that`s not a distance shot. This is a shot of the home -- OK.

Well, looks to me, right there, fire goes up, that something was thrown in the window, probably a projectile, such as a Molotov cocktail, in that bottom window and it burned up.

To Greg Steensland, where was the little brother and sister in the home?

STEENSLAND: I`m not entirely certain. It`s my understanding that the little brother was in his room and that the sister was in the living room on the couch.

GRACE: Where was the stepfather, the one who allegedly molested her?

STEENSLAND: My understanding is -- and once again, we`re still investigating all the details -- but my understanding is, he was in his room.

GRACE: In his room as well?

STEENSLAND: In the bedroom with Debbie.

GRACE: What kind of a criminal history, if any, did the father have?

STEENSLAND: I`m not sure of all the criminal history. And I guess I`m not one to comment...

GRACE: Just give me a tiny taste.

STEENSLAND: Well, I think he`s got some charges out of Missouri. But I haven`t found anything that indicates he`s got sexual-related charges in the past, but I`m still looking into that.

GRACE: To Tom Shaw with the Omaha World Herald, did she ever tell anyone her stepdad was abusing her, and did the family move around a lot?

SHAW: Well, yes, the family did move around a lot, as you had mentioned. Debbie had told me that the stepfather, Brian Street, would move the family any time he thought that law enforcement was maybe on to some of his check-writing schemes, I guess.

But essentially in this case, there has been -- Debbie has told me that Brian would stand next to the phone when Tracey would be speaking to her twin sister. Tracey has a twin sister, Amy, who lives in Arizona. But that Brian would be there when she`s talking on the phone so that it was really just small talk, things about the weather and whatnot.

And that also the father, the stepfather, Brian Street, controlled when the family kind of...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: So does that mean she did not tell anybody he was abusing her, yes, no?

SHAW: I have not been told by anyone that she told anyone about the abuse.

GRACE: OK. Tom, how do they know the fire was intentionally set? What do you know about how the fire was set?

SHAW: Well, right now, as Dan had mentioned, they had charged her with first-degree arson using what they say is an accelerant or an incendiary device. Some people in the town of Griswold have their theories about what that was, but I don`t know if anything`s really been...

GRACE: What`s the theory? What`s the theory?

SHAW: Well, there`s a theory that it was gasoline that was used, but, again that`s -- as far as I know, that`s...

GRACE: You mean gasoline thrown in the window or poured in the home?

SHAW: Again, that is something that has not come up in my reporting.

GRACE: Well, you know, having done many arson investigation, it`s very clear normally when an accelerant is used. By the wording, you`re telling me, accelerant and incendiary device, that says to me, Molotov cocktail, because it`s a device and an accelerant put together. It could be anything from a mason jar full of gasoline and thrown. That`s what a Molotov cocktail is.

I see the windows are thrown out, and the fire is at a window, two and two equals four. I`m just guessing. When will this go to court, to Tom Shaw?

SHAW: Well, there is a hearing next week, April 14th, where a judge will decide the defense -- Greg`s motion to move the case to juvenile court. That will be the first -- or that will be next week.

GRACE: OK. And last, before we go to break, with me is a convicted child molester, Jake Goldenflame.

Very quickly, Jake, what do you make of this stepfather moving the kids around from place to place, never leaving a paper trail, never having his kids in school, and monitoring their comings and goings?

JAKE GOLDENFLAME, CONVICTED CHILD MOLESTER: It`s what I would expect of a father who is preying upon his daughter repeatedly to keep from being captured, and known, and discovered.

GRACE: Everybody, we are going to a break. And we are going to keep you appraised of what`s going on in this courtroom regarding a 17-year-old girl on trial for two counts of murder one.

And now, to "Trial Tracking" -- I believe I`m going to "Trial Tracking."

A Texas high school football coach shot today at the high school. Fighting for his life tonight in a Tyler, Texas, hospital. As of tonight, police have alleged the shooter, 45-year-old Jeffrey Robertson in custody. Police say Robertson shot the coach, 37-year-old Gary Kinne, Jr., with an AK-47. Who`s against gun control, AK-47? Because they disagreed on how the team should be coached. The alleged shooter`s son on the football team.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. Bombshell testimony in the Michael Jackson trial.

We`ve only got a few moments to break. Very quickly to Jane Velez- Mitchell, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent at the courthouse.

Bring me up-to-date, friend.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Nancy, shocking sexually graphic testimony in the Jackson case today from two disgruntled former Neverland employees.

A security guard who testified he once saw Michael Jackson -- he looked through a window, saw Michael Jackson naked with the `93 accuser. And at that time, what he saw was Michael Jackson caressing this boy who was naked, then sucking on his nipples, and then dropping down, he claims, and performing oral sex on the boy, the `93 accuser.

Now a former Neverland maid then took the stand and testified she saw Michael Jackson with this same boy, the `93 accuser, and that he kissed him on the mouth and touched him in the groin area on top of his pants.

But I have to tell you, Tom Mesereau doing a brilliant job on cross, explaining that these two sold their story to the tabloid and also lost a lawsuit against Michael Jackson for wrongful termination.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, Jane Velez-Mitchell, during the commercial break, I`m going to wash your mouth out with soap, young lady. We`ll be right back.

(LAUGHTER)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOPHIA CHOI, CNN ANCHOR: "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

As tens of thousands of Poles head to Rome for Pope John Paul II`s funeral, those who stayed behind paid their own tribute today. In Krakow, one million people set out in a silent march in homage to the Polish-born Pope. The huge crowd gathered on the edge of the city for a mass in his memory.

The painkiller Bextra has been taken off the market. Drug maker Pfizer has suspended sales at the request of the FDA. In addition to possible risks of hearts attacks and strokes, government regulators cited a risk of life-threatening skin reactions. The FDA also wants Celebrex and Vioxx to carry stronger heart-risk warnings.

And better fill up now. Gas prices are expected to peak at $2.35 in just a few weeks. The cost of gasoline is already at record levels with motorists paying an average of $2.22 a gallon.

That`s the news for now. I`m Sophia Choi. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: People say, "Why is he always with children?" Well, I was raised in a world with adults. When kids were playing, in bed at sleep at night, I was out doing clubs. I was doing club dates, 3:00 in the morning. The striptease would come on after us. You know, I was performing, and we didn`t have friends.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was from the Michael Jackson rebuttal that was shot by a Jackson staffer.

Welcome back, I`m Nancy Grace. Straight back out to the Santa Maria courthouse.

Standing by, from "Celebrity Justice," Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, just give me a nutshell. Who was on the stand, what was the high and the low?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, these two former Neverland employees were on the stand. And the most dramatic moment for the prosecution, this very, very graphic testimony. What struck all of us was how this former Neverland security guard talked about how passionate -- he used the word "passion," "passionately" touching this boy all over his body. This is what he said he saw Michael Jackson doing.

The low point for the prosecution was the fact that both of these people have a lot of baggage. And Tom Mesereau was masterful in opening up the bags and letting the jury see what`s in them. And what`s in them is that both of these people sold their story to the tabloids. Both of these people were part of a group of former Neverland employees who sued for wrongful determination and lost. In fact, a million dollar judgment-plus was awarded against them on behalf of Michael Jackson.

Michael Jackson turned around, countersued, charged they stole stuff, in the case of the former maid, a sketch that he had purportedly done of Elvis Presley. I mean, this gets wilder and wilder. And she said she found it in the garbage.

Nevertheless, the jury, right here in this courthouse in Santa Maria way back when, awarded Michael Jackson $25,000 and $35,000 against these two who haven`t paid these amounts. And the list goes on and on. These are people with a lot of baggage.

GRACE: But to Jason Oshins, defense attorney here in the New York area, Jason, what`s going to stick with the jury? You`ve got the maid stating what she observed. You`ve got the former security guard stating he observed inadvertently oral sex with a little boy. Like this jury`s going to care that they were later fired and had a lawsuit?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s really the key question. The prosecution, obviously, is enjoying this sensationalism of being able to...

GRACE: That`s not true. That`s not true.

OSHINS: ... graphically describing oral sex.

GRACE: No. No, I really resent that, because you can say that about every child molestation I ever prosecuted. I didn`t enjoy this sensationalism. It made me sick.

OSHINS: No, look in corroboration with some of these witnesses for the prosecution coming forward. As Jane has indicated, a lot of them have baggage. They have significant baggage. And Tom Mesereau is dissecting them properly, planting the seed inside the jury`s mind...

GRACE: I`ve got a question for you.

OSHINS: ... that these people are involved in a conspiracy for money.

GRACE: Who do you think Jackson surrounded himself with, nuns, and priests, and virgins? No, you take your witnesses like you find them.

OSHINS: No doubt. But obviously the baggage that comes with them is what the defense is going to use to dissect these witnesses to show that they have an all ulterior motive. You`ve got to go, as the defense, and work against the weakness of the prosecution. And you`ve got to work at it hard so that you`re planting a seed for the jurors to think that there is something more than going on than what meets the eye as opposed to just the graphic testimony which is certainly eye-catching and sensational.

GRACE: OK, thank you, Professor Oshins.

OSHINS: Thank you.

GRACE: But my question was, what`s the jury going to take home with them tonight? While they`re at home, eating their dinner, do you think they`re going to believe, "Gee, this maid had a civil lawsuit filed against her by Michael Jackson"? Or will they be thinking, "Good lord, they saw Michael Jackson having oral sex with a little boy"?

OSHINS: Well, certainly, it begs the question of why some of these allegations didn`t come out earlier as it relates to these witnesses for the prosecution, bringing them forth now, and their objectives, whether it`s money, working against the judgment...

GRACE: OK, I understand you don`t want to answer the question.

OSHINS: Well, that`s the key.

GRACE: That`s OK.

OSHINS: Are they going to take home Sneddon`s accusations?

GRACE: It`s not Sneddon`s accusations, Jason. It`s a little boy`s accusations and an eyewitness.

OSHINS: Well, we`re talking about the witnesses brought forth by the prosecution now. Will the jury take home the sensationalism of their allegations, or will they take home the defense`s use, properly, of dissecting them for what their motives might be?

GRACE: OK. Well-put, Robert Gottleib, you want to weigh in?

ROBERT GOTTLEIB, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, and all I can say is, thank God for the jury system which includes cross-examination. What Jane pointed out, and so that people watching can understand clearly, there was graphic testimony on direct examination. On cross-examination, Chacon, the security guard, says, it was part of a $16 million wrongful determination suit.

There was a order that all the employees who lost the case pay $1.5 million for Jackson`s legal fees, motive to embellish and lie. And also that same jury concluded that this security guard, who the prosecution is relying on, stole $25,000 worth of property and acted with malice and fraud. Furthermore, he never came forward until somebody decided to bring a civil lawsuit against Jackson.

Nancy, you know the jury tonight is going home and is saying, and is thinking, "Well, on direct examination, they were ready to say, guilty, guilty, guilty. Now after cross, not so fast." That`s where we are.

GRACE: Well, let`s go to the source. Jane Velez-Mitchell, how did the jury look during direct and during cross?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, once again, this jury gets the deadpan award. It`s very hard to read them. But I have to point out, I don`t think it`s so much what they`re taking home tonight. It`s what they take home at the end of the trial.

Tom Mesereau dropped a lot of landmines today that I think he`s going to try to exploit during the defense case. He asked a lot of questions, like, "Didn`t you tell your landlady" -- this is of the ex-security guard - - "that you`re going to be driving around in a Mercedes and you`re going to have $2 million in your pocket by the time your lawsuit`s over with Michael Jackson?" He says, "No." Well, you can be sure that he`s going to probably bring that landlady up in his defense to say that. So I`m just saying it`s not over yet, in terms of these particular witnesses.

GRACE: Oh, yes. It ain`t over yet, friend.

But, remember, Mesereau promised a whole lot of stuff in opening statement about all the grifters trying to take advantage of Michael Jackson that have already been disproved. I can think of four promises in the defense opening statement that`s already been disproved. So we`ll just wait and see what Mesereau brings up.

I want to go quickly to Jake Goldenflame. Goldenflame is a convicted child molester. Jake...

GOLDENFLAME: Right.

GRACE: ... you`ve been listening to the facts in the Michael Jackson case.

GOLDENFLAME: Right.

GRACE: A lot has been made of the grooming of these young boys. Now, when I was prosecuting, we didn`t have that word as it applied to child molestation.

GOLDENFLAME: Yes.

GRACE: Explain that to us and what your interpretation of Michael Jackson`s actions is.

GOLDENFLAME: In order to get to a child victim, any of us who become child sex predators always go through the same steps. And one of those steps is that step called grooming, which has several parts to it.

It`s a part of convincing the child that you`re his friend. It`s a part of doing things, generosity to the child, so the child feels grateful to you, maybe even indebted to you. It finally takes the form of inviting the child to share a secret with you or that you`re going to share a secret with them that will be our secret from then on.

It`s a carefully calculated strategy to disarm the child from whatever resistances they might otherwise have so that you can have your way with them. That`s grooming.

As far as Mr. Jackson is concerned, all I can go on is what the evidence has indicated so far. And so far, the evidence would suggest very strongly to me he fits the pattern.

GRACE: Well, you know, I know that this maid who was bringing in about $7 an hour -- it`s like David and Goliath up against a superstar like Michael Jackson.

GOLDENFLAME: Yes.

GRACE: And I know this security guard can be attacked on cross, rightly so. But one thing that sticks in my mind is that 24-year-old youth worker that claims to have been a molestation victim of Jackson`s when he was a little boy. That spoke volumes to me, Mr. Goldenflame.

GOLDENFLAME: I hear something else, too. One of the things that all of us do when we`re still active predators, we secretly want to get caught. And we drop hints. We do things that, if somebody were really listening carefully, they would understand there`s some message there this person is sending.

I think that sometimes when I watch Jackson, and some of the things that he does, I can`t help but wonder, "Does this apply to you?" He calls himself Peter Pan, or a Peter Pan figure, and the word "pan" means all. Peter All?

Mr. Jackson, your anagrams may be showing.

GRACE: Well, I tell you, something not as complicated as that.

The signals, Lauren Howard, that he has been giving for so long about...

HOWARD: For so long.

GRACE: ... about sleeping with little boys.

HOWARD: For so long. His entire premise about children being the solution to world peace and sort of a rationalization for his intimate behavior with children. It`s almost as if his conscience is trying to deflect his lack of impulse control. And that`s what he`s been doing.

GRACE: And I just wonder, how much money and how much celebrity does it take to make people totally ignore what`s right in front of their nose?

HOWARD: I don`t think it`s -- well, oh, you mean in terms of people? There`s no question, people ignoring him. I mean, who are these parents letting their children have sleepovers with a grown man?

GRACE: Well, the whole word -- I mean, there you thousands of fans showing up at the courthouse screaming, "Michael, look at me!" I mean, they don`t care anything about the alleged victim.

HOWARD: It so much speaks to a sickness in our society that that is the case. But it is the case, and we know it is.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with more from the Michael Jackson trial. We are live in Santa Maria, California. Please, stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KATHERINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S MOTHER: Well, whoever is a parent, if someone came and molested your son, would you ask them for money? Would you? You can`t answer me? No, you wouldn`t ask for money, would you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON: The moment I started breaking the all-time records of the biggest selling albums of all-time, they called me weird overnight, strange, wacko. You know, they said I`m a girl, I`m homosexual. "He wants to buy the elephant man`s bones. He sleeps in a hypobaric chamber." None of that stuff is true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. We are live in Santa Maria at the Michael Jackson trial. Let`s go out to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Today on the stand, an ex-security guard of Jackson`s. Elizabeth, can you throw up the screen for the viewers?

"I saw Mr. Jackson caressing the boy`s hair, he was kissing him, sucking his nipples." OK, that hurt the defense.

Let`s go to the next one, Elizabeth. Still, the same witness on the stand. "Put the little boy`s penis in his mouth," OK, strike two. Here we go. Last one, Elizabeth, "Not long, but passionate. And Mr. Jackson`s hands went down to the boy`s crotch area."

OK, Jane Velez-Mitchell, you`re still telling me that the jury was deadpan, no emotion? I nearly fell off my chair, and I`m 2,000 miles away.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I have to point out that today the jury and the judge, both a couple of minutes late coming into court, and there was some speculation that the judge may have admonished the jury about talking to each other.

Because there had been a rumor swirling around here that got published that they were overheard in their little recess area joking and mimicking one of the people who took the stand and make accusations against Michael Jackson. No confirmation on that, but it`s certainly possible the judge may have reminded them not to talk to about the case. And that would certainly account for their more somber attitude.

Although, I think that just because they`re somber and quiet doesn`t mean that they`re not impacted by this testimony. They don`t have to cry to be impacted. They could quietly, very, very -- be very disturbed by this testimony, just very quietly and very privately.

GRACE: Jason Oshins, do you think it`s to a point where Michael Jackson has to take the stand?

OSHINS: I don`t know if we`re at that point yet.

GRACE: I don`t either.

OSHINS: No, I think it`s more important to continue what Mr. Mesereau is doing, which is dissecting these witnesses. You know, the real substantive issue is, what are these people, these witnesses? Is it really a sense of overkill by the prosecution to try and just keep on and keep on? And is he actually hurting this case by having these witnesses that have significant garbage and luggage in their past that the defense is able to go after?

GRACE: Well, hold on. Talk about garbage and luggage in your past. There`s Michael Jackson getting his star on the Walk of Fame. If I`m incorrect, correct me, but isn`t that where he took a chimp as a date?

OSHINS: No one ever said that Michael Jackson wasn`t freaky. There`s no doubt about it.

GRACE: Elizabeth says yes, and she knows her Jackson.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Let me go to Robert Gottleib. Will Jackson have to take the stand, trial strategy-wise?

GOTTLEIB: No, the answer is about absolutely not. A moment ago you properly said you fell off your chair when you heard that the witness testified about those three observations.

Let me suggest to you and ask you, wouldn`t you say if this guy, who is not a victim of the abuse, and therefore could not have been traumatized or shocked, if he really saw this happen, why didn`t he call the police? Why didn`t he call the mother? Why didn`t he call child protective services?

When you think about his silence all those years, coupled with all of the other motivations for him now to lie, you`ve got to say, pick yourself off the floor and say, he is not worthy of one ounce of belief.

GRACE: You know what? I would cross him like crazy on why he never said anything. But another issue is, why do people remain silent ever? Why do mothers -- like, did you hear the story earlier, Robert...

GOTTLEIB: Yes.

GRACE: ... about the 17-year-old girl who burned the house down?

GOTTLEIB: Yes.

GRACE: And the mom is like, "Well, I didn`t know."

GOTTLEIB: They are tied into the case. They are victims themselves.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Robert, it happens all the time.

GOTTLEIB: Here, this guy is supposedly an independent observer.

GRACE: No, he`s not independent. He worked for Jackson. This maid made $7 an hour.

GOTTLEIB: But he wasn`t related to this fellow.

GRACE: Working for -- you know what? We`ll settle it. We`ll go to the shrink.

Lauren Howard. Why do people not speak out?

HOWARD: Shame, shame, shame, shame, power, abuse of power. No one wants to stand up against an icon like Michael Jackson. It is much easier to walk past a bleeding man on the street than to help him out. And people do it all the time. And it`s not the right thing to do, but the motivation has to do with self-preservation. People don`t blow the whistle. They don`t.

GRACE: When I think, particularly, about the position the maid was in, $7 an hour...

HOWARD: Right, and she`s going to jeopardize that.

GRACE: ... going up after Michael Jackson, a superstar.

HOWARD: Forget it. Not going to happen.

GRACE: What people will do to hold on to a job they think they need.

HOWARD: Oh, yes.

GRACE: A quick break, everyone.

But I want to go to "Trial Tracking": The father of a Colorado serial killer, hawking DVDs of his son`s videotape account of how he lured women to his house and strangled them. Well, I guess father knows best.

Richard Paul White got life without parole for killing three people - I guess they don`t have the death penalty in that jurisdiction -- but claims he killed three others and buried them all over the state.

Well, catch this. The father plans to sell a second DVD this summer of his son talking to God after being interrogated by police. The killer`s father says some of the proceeds will go to a fund set up for his son`s victim`s children, funneled through him, of course.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY GONZALES, FATHER OF MURDER VICTIM: This man is sick. I mean, when I was in court last year when they sentenced Richard White, just seeing him trying to say that he was sorry for what his son did, right -- you know, I can just feel that he was lying. I mean, he is just as sick as his son.

He`s bringing up the wounds up again, you know? I mean, I`m trying to heal. This jerk all of a sudden wants to have a DVD? He`s trying to justify by saying that maybe people will understand his son? Come on, you know, that is a copout.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I agree with the victim`s father.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Mathew Allor, missing since November `98 from Leesville, Louisiana. In ten days, this little boy will turn 11. If you have any information on Mathew Allor, call the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, 1-800-THE-LOST. Please, help us.

GRACE: I`m going to quickly go to a convicted child molester, Jake Goldenflame. What are the six steps of a pedophile?

GOLDENFLAME: It begins by hunting for the child who`s lost, lonely, and behind the pack. It goes on to befriending the child, deceiving them, that you`re going to be a friend. It goes on to wounding the child by asking them about sexuality, which they can`t possibly handle and it leaves them feeling vulnerable.

They distract the child by talking about sex that somebody else did that they knew of one time. They offer it as a temptation to the child. And finally they ask the child in that moment of temptation if the child might be willing to try this sometime. And if they even get an answer of maybe, they strike. Those are the six steps.

GRACE: Lauren, final thought?

HOWARD: Regardless of whether or not you find the witnesses and all this stuff that`s being introduced, people having alternative motives, there are so many things with the Michael Jackson case, between the porn and his freakishness, and his behavior, and his attitude, and his sleepovers with boys, and the allegations.

There`s so much of it, Nancy, that, at the end of the day, whether some people are lying or not won`t matter because there`s enough of it that not everybody can be lying. It`s just too compelling. It`s too much.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, I`ve got 30 seconds left. What comes up next?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, up next, more former Michael Jackson employees who are going to take the stand. The person who could be next, Bob Jones. He was an executive with MJJ Productions, a communications director. He`s kind of a wild card. We don`t know exactly what he is going to say, but he knows a lot. He`s been around Michael Jackson for 20 years.

GRACE: Wow, Jane Velez-Mitchell, when you say a wild card, that means, translation, field day for the defense on cross-examination. Thank you, friend, Jane Velez-Mitchell there at the courthouse.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you as always is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home tonight.

Coming up next, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I`ll see you right here tomorrow night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. I`ll be shooting from Atlanta tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.

END