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Look Back at Funeral Mass of Pope John Paul II
Aired April 8, 2005 - 09:11 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to our live coverage of the funeral mass and burial of Pope John Paul II, a celebration of the life of Karol Jozef Wojtyla.
It is 9:00 a.m. here in the Vatican in Vatican City. You are looking at live pictures of St. Peter's Basilica. There you see some of the many hundreds of thousands, if not millions, who have come to see Pope John Paul II over this last week. Now they gather outside St. Peter's Basilica waiting to say good-bye.
I'm joined in our coverage this morning by CNN's chief international correspondent, Christiane Amanpour; also by Vatican analyst John Allen, reporter for the National Catholic Reporter, author of the book "Conclave," and by CNN Vatican analyst Delia Gallagher -- Christiane.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the pope himself said in the spiritual testament that was released yesterday that the times in which we live are unutterably difficult and disturbed, and the church as well -- the path has become difficult and tense, both for the faithful and for the pastors.
That may be true. But this week, and on this day, this is one of the greatest gatherings of the Catholic faithful in modern times, one of the greatest gatherings ever in the Western world. This has been a long goodbye for a man who, no matter what people thought of his doctrine, thought of him as a moral and spiritual leader, as a man of admiration above all others.
It's been some four million people, pilgrims who have come here from all over the world, not least from his homeland, Poland. They have come. They have stood in line for hours -- 10 to 12 hours, to go and view his body. At last count we heard some two million people have filed past John Paul II's body as it lay in state on public view inside the great Basilica of St. Peter's.
And now, as we get ready to watch the funeral, to broadcast this incredible and ancient liturgical rite around the world, heads of state are here, heads of government, religious leaders from all faiths and all parts of the world have come here. Right now inside, what's going on is the final closing of the coffin for John Paul II.
John, what is the actual physical liturgy and ritual that's going on inside?
JOHN ALLEN, NATIONAL CATHOLIC REPORTER: Right, Christiane. Well, what's happening is that the camerlengo -- that's the official who governs the church in this period when there is no pope -- Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo, is leading a liturgy which begins with some prayers for the pope who is just deceased. Then the singing of the hymn, some additional prayers. And then in a very unique touch that is, of course, not part of the regular Catholic funeral rite, two other things will be happening.
Two of the pope's closest aides, Archbishop Piero Marini, who is the man responsible for all of the pope's liturgies, and of course, the pope's closest friend and collaborator, Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz, his private secretary for 38 years, first in Krakow and for the entire run of his pontificate here in Rome, will approach the casket.
They will extend a veil over the face of the pope, praying that he will see the eternal light that Catholics believe comes in the next world. And then they will place medallions in the casket representing various periods of the pope's pontificate.
And then, at the conclusion of that ritual, of course, the casket -- remember, what we'll be seeing today is a simple wooden casket -- will be brought out and put in position for the celebration of this vast and astonishing funeral liturgy.
COOPER: It should be pointed out that it is 9:03 a.m. The funeral mass begins at approximately 10:00 a.m. Rome time, Vatican City time, in just under one hour from now. But that ceremony, placing the pope in the cypress casket, that has already taken place -- Delia.
DELIA GALLAGHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, exactly. That began this morning at 7:30 Rome time and should be finishing shortly. We should say that that ceremony is attended only by a small group, only the closest collaborators, let us say, of the pope.
And the funeral then, of course, will be witnessed by everybody. And then afterwards there is another ceremony for the actual burial in the crypt, again attended by that small, intimate group of cardinals.
COOPER: And of course, we're watching and seeing world leaders arriving, dignitaries, from 200 -- dignitaries from around the world have descended on here.
But I think for Christiane and I, what we have talked about a lot this last week is just the outpouring of affection from people -- not dignitaries, people -- especially from Poland, who in these last days have come in, in huge numbers. And as we look at these crowd pictures, we're seeing obviously some Polish flags but also some solidarity banners, a real symbol of the pope's roots in Poland, his involvement in the fall of communism.
John, there have been some talk that the mayor of Karol Wojtyla's hometown had wanted to place some earth from Poland, from his hometown, in the casket. Do we know -- has that happened? Will it happen? ALLEN: We don't know, although the Vatican officials I spoke with recently seem to think it was unlikely. As you can imagine, there are people all over the world in groups all over the world who would like to place something either in or near the casket as a reminder.
AMANPOUR: As we talk, what you're seeing there, Victor Yushchenko, the newly-elected president of Ukraine. And this is very poignant. First of all, he and his wife are devoutly religious. They're devout orthodox Christians.
The pope went to Ukraine. Part of his whole relationship with the Eastern Orthodox Church has been very, very strained, although the pope has managed to reconcile, if you like, with the great religions around the world. We've talked a lot about his reconciliation with the Jewish faith, his apology for what the Catholic Church did and did not do during the Holocaust; his reconciliation with Islam, his stepping foot inside a mosque, the first pope ever, apologizing for the excesses of the Crusades, traveled all over the world.
But his great dream of reconciling Eastern Orthodoxy with the Western Christian tradition has not been realized. And I think that's one note of discord in this entire week, that he has tried -- we know from his letters, we know from his close collaborators that he wanted so badly, for instance, to go to Russia.
He tried. He even wanted to take an icon back, one of the historic icons that belonged to the Orthodox Church. And the patriarch of the Eastern Orthodox Church simply refused to allow that happen, even though he was invited both by Mikhail Gorbachev, the last Soviet leader, and by President Vladimir Putin, who is, in fact, not attending this ceremony today.
COOPER: But of course, the ceremony is very closely being watched in Krakow, Poland, right now.
CNN's Chris Burns is there.
Chris, what is the scene in Krakow? We have been seeing such moving images over the last several days from Krakow, people in tears saying mass. They are watching this very closely in Poland today, yes -- Chris.
CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, very much, Anderson.
Well, we're seeing hundreds of thousands of people once again turning out here. Last night we saw as many as a million turn out, a sea of candles. Just moments ago, the bishop that is beginning the mass here before the Pope's burial said that, "Our tears have begun to dry, but can we transform these now into prayers?"
A lot of people are not so much crying anymore as they are showing their thankfulness for this man who not only provided them spiritual guidance but also helped to lead them out of that communist era in 1989. And in fact, it is here that in 1979, when the pope first came, had just been named pope, that he came here to this very field, as millions assembled during the communist regime. And he told them, "Fear not, fear not and you can change this land." And he came repeatedly over that period during the communist era, providing them a sense of hope. And that's what people come back here. But you know, another thing that's remarkable is, I would say roughly half of this crowd wasn't even born in 1979. And we talked to some of these people, these teenagers, and we asked them, "Really what did the pope mean to you?"
And it is quite widely known that there are many of the pope's teachings, such as on birth control, that many young people do not follow. But they see him as a man who preached compassion, who preached tolerance and love. And that is really what moves these people here, who do see the historical perspective but of course also the spiritual perspective, as well -- Anderson.
COOPER: We have correspondents covering this story from around the globe. Chris, we'll be back with you shortly in Krakow.
I want to introduce one of our analysts this morning who will watching the broadcast with us, watching this service and talking with us, Archbishop Wilton Gregory, who is standing by.
Archbishop, thank you very much for joining us this morning for saying goodbye to Pope John Paul II and really celebrating his life.
Archbishop Gregory, your thoughts this morning, as you look at these images of pilgrims, and church officials, and dignitaries arriving at Vatican City?
ARCHBISHOP WILTON GREGORY, ATLANTA ARCHBISHOP: I think back on my own time as a student, as a young priest there in Rome and being present on the night of October 16, 1978, when Pope John Paul II was elected and presented to the world. And it's an opportunity to reflect on the wonderful ministry that he has exercised so faithfully for 26 years.
AMANPOUR: Archbishop, it's Christiane Amanpour. We were talking a little while ago about the great sorrow of the pope's life, unable to bring the Eastern Church together with the Western Church. We've just been looking at pictures of various dignitaries and prelates from the Orthodox Church. And of course, some are represented here.
Give us an idea of what the great schism was.
GREGORY: Well, it's actually a very sad chapter in Christian history that is intermingled with the political activities of the 11th century. It also involved a sad exchange between the church in Rome and the Eastern Churches. It culminated in the actual separation of the unified body of Christianity, based on misunderstandings and certainly based on a lack of humility on both parts.
I think that's why Pope John Paul II was such an important figure, because he approached the question of unity and the question of bringing together these two great Christian families from a very humble and forthright manner. Certainly, he was sorry that he was not able to accomplish it, but I do believe that history will show that he has taken some very bold and helpful steps towards unifying these two communities within the Christian family. AMANPOUR: Archbishop, just quickly as we look at the dignitaries on the screen, we've seen the secretary-general of the United Nations, Kofi Annan. We have seen the chancellor of Germany, Gerhard Schroeder. And just before I turn to our colleagues here, it's again interesting.
Gerhard Schroeder, in this age of apologies and recrimination, has apologized to the Catholic Church, really, and to the Polish people for not supporting Solidarity when they should have done back in the '80s. Both the French and the Germans were afraid that if they over-supported Solidarity, it would trigger a Soviet invasion, the type of which they saw in previous uprisings in Poland.
And so as the pope was being so forward on trying to get the people to -- quote -- "do not be afraid," the great powers in Europe were holding back. Indeed, so was the Archbishop of Poland at the time, Wyszynski, Cardinal Wyszynski.
GREGORY: Yes. The man that John Paul II so often refers to as the primate of the millennium. Of course, you have to put yourself in that historical moment. No one knew what was going to happen. And the fear was a Soviet invasion would be absolutely disastrous. And so a certain kind of caution set in. But John Paul has never been captive of caution.
GALLAGHER: You know, one of the interesting things I think about today is that, although the pope didn't succeed, as we were saying, with the patriarchy of Moscow, today actually celebrating at the mass will be two of the Eastern patriarchs from Alexandria and from Constantinople. And he did come and work quite hard at this unity. And he did make some progress in it.
AMANPOUR: And there will be the sort of -- I think called the foreign minister of the Orthodox Church in Russia is coming here to represent that church. But I think what's interesting -- maybe you can talk about this, Delia -- it appears that, after the fall of Soviet communism, allowing the Orthodox Church to regain its position in Russia, there was a fear by the Orthodox Church there of the competition between...
GALLAGHER: Well, that was the problem. That is the problem. And of course, the Catholic Church also set-up some type of diocese there for the Catholics that are there. And that only added to the difficulty. So that is still today the problem.
ALLEN: Christiane, very quickly, probably worth noting, John Paul II is the first Slavic pope in the history of the Catholic Church. And clearly he saw in that God's providence, that he was put there, in part, trying to heal this millennium-old wound. And I think you're quite right in saying this probably looms as one of the great frustrations of his papacy that more progress was not made.
COOPER: Also in your book, "Conclave," you write that, in this next conclave, this is going to be one, perhaps, of the voting issues, as you refer to it as, though Pope John Paul II did make an effort to reach out to other groups, other religious leaders, they made a very strong point of reemphasizing that, in his view, in the view of the Catholic Church, salvation is only possible through Christianity and only as interpreted by the Catholic Church.
ALLEN: Yes. Which does mean, of course, Anderson, that non- Christians can't be saved. But the belief is salvation comes through Christ in some mysterious way for these other people.
But you know, you're right. I mean, the difficulty here is, on the one hand, the pope very much wanted to reach out in open conversation with other Christian groups and the other religions of the world. That's on one hand. On the other hand, he obviously also wanted to insist that in the end it is the Catholic Church that presents the truth about the human condition.
The pope saw no contradiction there. Others, however, sometimes felt a bit more tension.
COOPER: And it is 9:15 now here in Vatican City, as you see more leaders, there, Yushchenko from Ukraine, gathering, this mass beginning at 10:00 a.m. local time. The services have already begun at 7:30 a.m. local time. The pope was placed in a casket made of cypress, just the first of three caskets that he will ultimately be in. A veil was placed over his head. There were prayers, a very small service, which cameras were not witnessing to. But our cameras will be bringing you this mass.
CNN's Rome Bureau Chief Alessio Vinci is down in the crowd on the street level and has been watching some of the influx of leaders from different faiths and some Orthodox leaders, as well -- Alessio.
ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, Anderson. As a matter of fact, this funeral marks for the first time the presence of leaders of both Orthodox Christianity, as well as the Eastern (ph) Apostolic Church that have attended a pope's funeral. This is unprecedented, of course.
It is known that the pope's shown ability to bridge, if you want, the divide between religions, primarily aided by his common touch and his keen understanding of the power of symbolism. You may remember the note he slipped into the crack in the Western Wall, apologizing for the suffering of Jews over the centuries.
It was a gesture, of course, that marked a crucial change, for example, from his predecessors. Paul VI, when he visited Israel back in 1964, when the Jewish state and the Vatican were, for example, so distant from each other, the pope only traveled to Christian holy sites and never even mentioned Israel by name.
So this a pope who will use symbols and symbolism in order to bridge those churches and those religions together. He has hosted several religious forums and gatherings, especially here in Assisi, not too far away from Rome, because, you know, you always believe that religion should never be used as a pretext for war. And so religion and war were two themes that really marked especially the final years of his papacy. AMANPOUR: Alessio, it's Christiane. You and I were in St. Peter's Square last night at midnight walking around and watching these thousands, tens of thousands, of people camped out and waiting for this very moment. It is quite extraordinary to have seen how the faith has galvanized so many young people.
VINCI: Absolutely. This was a pope who, despite was very old in his final years of his papacy, had a special bond with the young people. I was surprised -- perhaps not surprised, I was moved to see so many young people calling his name almost as if they were in a stadium supporting a football team.
They really had a bond with this man that went really beyond faith. It was something that really attracted them, perhaps his ability to communicate in simple words. This was a man who really spoke their language.
I do remember seeing video of his huge gathering here in Rome during World Youth Day, and you could see them singing and waving flags. And you could see this pope, who could barely move on his own, who could barely stand on his own, feeling energized by the young crowds.
And I think this is one of the reasons why this pope has shown so much endurance, because the young people gave him so much energy and so much power, if you want, that he really felt that, with them, they were the future.
We see here Jacques Chirac, I can see.
COOPER: Alessio, what we're seeing -- yes, French President Jacques Chirac and his wife attending this service. Alessio, we'll talk with you in a moment.
Alessio was talking about the young people, Christiane. I was interviewing the Vatican's photographer, the man, Arturo Mari, who for the last 26 years has had one subject, Pope John Paul II, has taken more photographs of this man than anyone else.
And he was saying that, around children, John Paul II's face lit up, his entire face changed. In the words of Arturo Mari, the photographer, he said, "The pope became a child with children. He became a youth with youth."
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you, John and Delia. I mean, you've watched this. You are as much concentrating on the faith and the Catholic doctrine and the future of the Catholic Church as much as on an event. Does this say something for the future of this church? Is this a hopeful moment?
GALLAGHER: Well, I think absolutely. And that was the point of the pope in starting World Youth Day, working so hard with the youth. Aside from the fact that it rejuvenated him personally, I think he felt that it was very important for the future of the church. And I think that that's one of the great legacies that he will leave behind. We only need look at the crowds. AMANPOUR: But that's my question, John. We've heard so much about the dwindling numbers, particularly in Western Europe. You can go into a church and see just a handful on a Sunday mass. But this last week has been an unbelievable flood of Catholics coming here. Is this going to last? Or is it just for this week, do you think?
ALLEN: Well, I think that's a very interesting -- and probably unanswerable at this moment -- question. But a number of cardinals I've spoken to this week are struggling with that. To what extent is the personal charisma, the personal magic of John Paul II, something you can translate into religious practice and into church vitality?
One other point I might just very quickly make -- Alessio was talking about John Paul leaving behind that note apologizing for Christian anti-Semitism in Jerusalem. This is one of the striking things about John Paul's pontificate. You know, it used to be that being pope meant never having to say you're sorry. But this is a pope who has apologized repeatedly for the Inquisition, for anti-Semitism, for the Galileo case.
In the year 2000, the Jubilee year, he led the church on this massive purification of memory, trying to own up to its past mistakes. And it's one of the ways in which John Paul, though we call him a conservative so often, in many ways was a revolutionary, in terms of the style of the kind of pontificate he led.
COOPER: CNN's John Mann from CNN International will be joining us in a moment. We're going to be taking a quick break. And we'll be back in just a few moments.
Our coverage continues live from Vatican City.
COOPER: And you are looking at live pictures of Vatican City, St. Peter's Basilica, an extraordinary day celebrating the life of an extraordinary man and pope.
AMANPOUR: If you look at that great square there, which actually is not a square but an ellipse, it is now filled with people, not just the dignitaries who are coming to take their seats ahead of the funeral which starts in about 35 minutes, but also the pilgrims who have come and who spent certainly all of last night and perhaps many, many hours waiting in line to be able to be first come-first served in the seats reserved for the public.
We're joined also, as we see more dignitaries coming to this funeral -- that may be the president of Albania -- we're joined also by our CNN's Jonathan Mann, who has been covering this all week -- Jonathan.
JONATHAN MANN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Christiane, as I watch this, every one of the people who is crowding Rome, crowding the area around St. Peter's, is really part of an extraordinary legacy, an extraordinary inheritance for whoever will next occupy the Throne of St. Peter. This outpouring of popular emotion is, in a very real sense, an enormous wealth that's going to change hands.
And among the many burdens that will be faced by the church and by the man who's chosen to lead it next is this, is this inheritance, and the burden of not diminishing it, not squandering it, but building on it, building on this extraordinary outpouring of emotion that has surprised even the cardinals, the men closest to the Pope, the men who are the guardians of the church's future.
Cardinal Edward Eagan of New York told me yesterday that, in fact, he thought the next pope is going to have to be like this pope, a communicator, a man who can reach out to people around the world. And so, even on a day like this, when the church is mourning John Paul II, it is looking ahead in his shadow to a man who can carry on and who can inspire all of these people just the way he so obviously has.
AMANPOUR: That's exactly right. And Cardinal Eagan said that, and other cardinals, John, have also sort of been talking about what they might like to see next. I mean, it's sort of not done, really, to talk about the next pope yet, until it's all signed, sealed and delivered after the Sistine Chapel. But they have been saying that perhaps it's best to have somebody from this area or that area. Give us a sense of what some of the others have been saying.
MANN: Well, the truth is, Christiane, that for generations journalists have been trying to predict who the next pope will be. And pope's are closer to infallible than we have turned out to be. We generally get it wrong. There are all kinds of trends, all kinds of debates within the church, all kinds of pressures that will lead the cardinals in one way or another.
But to a man they all say they're really going to obey the spirit of God. They really go in there expecting that it will be a meeting, but not an election. It will be a time when they will open their hearts to divine inspiration.
Still, we could see various things. We could see the church turn back toward an Italian. This pope, of course, was the first non- Italian to occupy the Throne of St. Peter in so many years. We could see a move to try and broaden the appeal of the church in the developing world where it's already strongest.
What is so astounding though as we watch these pictures, this mass of humanity that's gathered to mourn this pope, is that this an organization that leads a billion of the world's faithful. This is a superpower with influence around the world, and yet it's next leader will be chosen by 117 eligible voters. And there has been no campaign.
We don't know much about the next man who will lead the church. We don't know who will lead it or how they will lead it. This is nothing like a traditional election where we have some sense of the platform and the ideology. Cardinals tend to change when they become pope. They tend to surprise even the experts.
And so what we're seeing here is the eve of a remarkable election. People don't talk about it much until the pope has been laid to rest. But this is the beginning of the oldest secret ballot, continuous secret ballot in human history. And we really never seem to know and we never seem to predict how it's going to turn out.
COOPER: Well, as we're watching these pictures again of dignitaries arriving and just regular people, if you will, standing, waiting. We are getting some numbers in -- 70,000 people in St. Peter's Square right now, tightly packed together. They consider themselves lucky to have gotten in; 350,000 people in the streets around St. Peter's Square.
Watching in Krakow live outside at a mass some 250,000 people. We've been monitoring some overhead helicopter shots of the city of Rome. The city, away from Vatican City, seems largely empty. It seems as if many people are all here.
And as you look at St. Peter's Square right now behind me, it is tightly packed, the dignitaries in one area, but the square itself, which as Christiane pointed out is not really a square, is just packed with people standing shoulder-to-shoulder waiting and watching.
You know, John Allen, John Mann was talking about the conclave. You wrote the book "Conclave." You're probably more an expert than anybody else. There are so many questions about where this church is going, what is going to come out of this conclave, in terms of, are they going to try to pick a pope from a Latin American country or perhaps even from Africa, real growth areas for the Catholic Church where there is vibrancy and vitality? So many other questions to answer.
ALLEN: Right, Anderson. And of course, to some extent, this is a conversation that will begin in earnest tomorrow. Today's focus, of course, is laying John Paul to rest and saying our final farewells.
But you are quite right. And I think, in addition to what Jonathan said about the inherent unpredictability of the process, there are probably three other, very quickly, factors to mention that make this race particularly hard to handicap.
One, John Paul II was the first non-Italian pope in 450 years, shattered the Italian monopoly in the papacy. They are no longer looking for the best Italian but the best man. Secondly, there is no single obvious candidate in this College. And third, there is no one looming dominant issue, which makes the politics incredibly complex.
COOPER: If I could just point out, there's a photographer there -- you see in the middle of your frame. Tat is Arturo Mari. That is the man who, for 26 years, has taken the pope's picture. And he is working today as he has worked for 360 out of 365 days each year of the last 26 years.
But he works with a broken heart. I mean, this is a man who loved John Paul II, who knew him -- who was never more than a few feet away from him, Delia.
GALLAGHER: Yes. And not only him. If you notice the man greeting them also is the prefect of the papal household, an American, Monsignor James Harvey. And all of the Vatican members of the pope's household, you can only imagine the pressure that they are under with this huge ceremony coming so close on the heels of a great loss for them.
COOPER: And it is 9:31 a.m. The mass for Pope John Paul II begins in about half an hour. In a moment, we're going to talk about what has already taken place and is taking place inside St. Peter's Basilica, moving Pope John Paul II's body.
Before we do, though, I want to go to a man who has covered the Vatican, who was in St. Peter's Square when Karol Wojtyla came out as Pope John Paul II, CNN's Jim Bittermann, who is also standing by overlooking this remarkable outpouring of affection in St. Peter's Square today -- Jim.
JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, I think I've got the best seat here, as a matter of fact. I'm actually on top of the Colonnade, one of the two outstretched arms that stretch out from St. Peter's Basilica and welcome people to the world. That was at least the conception when Lorenzo Bernini, fashioned these two arms back in the late 16th and early 17th century, the idea being the people of Rome should be welcomed to the basilica, and these colonnades of hundreds of columns would, in fact, just do that.
Up here, we're about 40 feet maybe, 13 meters, over the basilica ground level. And from here, we get a great view of everything that's happening down below. I think also a great sense of history. I mean, we're surrounded up here by these saints. I'm not sure you can see them on either side of me here, 140 statues, martyrs and saints, capped at the top of the basilica by Jesus Christ and the other apostles who surrounded Christ at the top of this facade at St. Peter's Basilica.
So a great sense of history here, a great sense of transition on this day, of course. But you know, the church continues onward. I think that's one of the things that you've all been talking about, the continuity that the church provides Christians, the idea that for 2,000 years this manmade institution, with the help of God, has been able to continue, and respond, and reform, and change itself and continue to grow.
AMANPOUR: Just as we listen to you and we watch this screen, we can see the British prime minister, Tony Blair, and his wife Cherie Blair. Now, Cherie Blair is herself a Roman Catholic. And her husband, the prime minister, has been known to attend Roman Catholic Mass and is himself very devout.
It's also interesting that really creates a little bit of an issue in England, the date of the funeral, because the prime minister, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the Anglican Church in England, made it very clear that they were coming here to represent the United Kingdom during this funeral. And it basically meant that Prince Charles had to move his wedding one day, because how it would look if all the state dignitaries were here?
And he has also come to represent his mother, Queen Elizabeth II, who again has a very interesting point in Vatican history. It was under this queen that the pope visited England and essentially restored diplomatic relations with Great Britain, England, that had been ruptured by her ancestor, Henry VIII, when he wanted to divorce his Catholic wife, Catherine of Aragon, and marry another, Anne Boleyn.
And instead of -- there we have Prince Charles, the heir to the British throne. Instead of accepting Catholic doctrine, King Henry VIII created a whole new church and ushered in the Reformation, a great schism, that it was this pope who essentially remedied.
ALLEN: Yes. I mean, we've been talking earlier about John Paul's outreach to the Eastern Churches. But we should not forget, he was also very ecumenically minded with the churches of the West, and above all, Anglicanism.
And you know, we were talking about his capacity for the symbolic gesture that speaks louder than words. I mean, I remember not long ago when a group of Anglican bishops came to visit the Pope. The Pope actually gave them each pectoral crosses. That's the symbol of the bishop's office, that chain with the cross they wear around their necks.
And what's interesting about that, Anderson and Christiane, is that, according to Vatican policy from 1876, technically speaking, Anglican ordinations are invalid, therefore their priests are not real priests, their bishops are not real bishops.
And yet John Paul obviously wanted to carry us beyond that, although he couldn't do it quite yet in speech. He certainly did it with gestures by giving them the traditional symbol of the bishop's office.
GALLAGHER: We also have the present Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, participating today. So he had a very special relationship with this pope. He had a great devotion to Mary, which is something new and unusual. And I think the pope shared that with him. And they were very close, as well.
COOPER: A moment ago, we saw Brazil's president, as well, just one of the many dignitaries. We've received word that President Bush from the United States, his motorcade is on the way here. We're about 24 minutes away from the start of this mass.
CNN's Bill Hemmer -- there's of course the king of Spain, as well as Jacques Chirac on the right-hand side of your screen. CNN's Bill Hemmer is down in the crowd as he has been much of this week doing some extraordinary coverage.
Good morning, Bill.
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Anderson, good morning to you.
It is the measure of the man, with so many pilgrims coming together, with kings, and queens, and presidents, and prime ministers. And down here, just outside of St. Peter's Square, there are so many sleeping bags from the thousands who have camped out overnight on sleeping bags, and roll-up mats, and cardboard boxes flattened to try and separate their bodies from the cobblestone pavement.
They have set up metal detectors at the tip of both sides of the Colonnade. And they're allowing many pilgrims and mourners to pass through those metal detectors, enter St. Peter's Square. They can go right to about the half-way point, right near the obelisk. And the police tell us they will continue to allow them to come into the square so long as there is room. But it is filling up quickly at this hour.
There are flags from Poland, and Spain, and Italy, and Lebanon. There are signs that say "St. John Paul" and "Santa Wojtyla" throughout the area down here. Then high above the Vatican, the windows to the Pope's bedroom are still shuttered. They will not reopen until there is a new pope that comes of the conclave. That will not begin for about nine more days.
The Poles have turned out today in big numbers, one woman saying she has "come here to celebrate the freedom he brought me. It is our last chance to say goodbye" -- Anderson.
COOPER: Bill, back to you very shortly.
AMANPOUR: The king of Jordan coming in there with his delegation and the queen of Jordan.
COOPER: We want to go to Archbishop Wilton Gregory who is standing by with us in New York.
Archbishop, let's talk a little bit about what has already taken place. It's 9:38 a.m. here in Vatican City. We know the funeral mass begins in about 22 minutes. But the services really already began away from the television cameras at 7:30 a.m. this morning, the Pope moved into a wooden coffin, the first of three coffins he will actually be put in.
Talk me through a little bit about those services, what was done with the Pope, what was placed in his casket.
GREGORY: Well, the ceremony that took place in St. Peter's away from the public eye included actually the closing of the casket. There were several dimensions to that, one of course you've alluded to, the placing of the white cloth over the face, which is a remnant of the ordination of a bishop where his head is anointed.
And in the older ritual, the head was actually bound with white cloths after the anointing. So this a residual dimension of that celebration. Also...
COOPER: I'm sorry, I just want to read something, a part of the prayer which is said by the camerlengo, the cardinal chamberlain, before that veil is placed. The last line of it is, "That his face which has been taken away from our view may contemplate your beauty and may commend his flock to you, Eternal Father who lives and reigns forever and ever." Items are also placed in the pope's casket?
GREGORY: Yes. There are coins that were minted during his pontificate. There was a cylinder with a text which described the high points of his life, his background. Those were placed inside the casket. And then, of course, it's a triple casket. So all of the closing ceremonies of the casket took place this morning with the inner-circle of the papal household and the camerlengo.
COOPER: As the coffin was closed, we understand a reading from Psalm 41 -- Psalm 42 in some Bibles -- begins, "As the deer longs for streams of water, so my soul longs for you, O God. My being thirsts for God, the living God. When can I go and see the face of God?"
John Allen, some of the items that were placed inside the casket, let's talk about this a little bit. The rogito (ph), is that the correct...
ALLEN: That's right. That's a parchment listing the main dates of the Pope's life, and then, of course, as Archbishop Gregory quite rightly said, medallions or coins struck during the course of his pontificate.
Now, you might ask yourself the question of why would the Vatican be in the business of striking coins? But let's remember that for several hundred years of its existence the Vatican was not merely an object of religious interest but it was also a secular government. And it still is, of course. The Holy See is a sovereign state that exchanges ambassadors.
But for centuries, the Vatican ruled over the central part of Italy, the so-called Papal States. They had a postal service. They had an army. They had a navy. In fact, there used to be offices in the Vatican for the Papal Army and Papal Navy. Obviously, they don't exist anymore.
And as part of that, they also had their own monetary units, their own coins. The Vatican, by the way, still does coin actual euro coins with the Pope's image on them, although they're more the kind of things that you put in a -- you know, as a keepsake, you put in a safe. You don't buy cappuccino with it. But they're still around.
AMANPOUR: As we described the liturgy, the rituals, the centuries-old established traditions here, let's also talk a little bit about some of the dignitaries who have come. And we just saw the president of Iran, Mohammed Khatami. It's a bit of an extraordinary sight because, of course, Iran is controversial, as you can imagine. There are all sorts of political discord between the West and Iran over nuclear ambitions.
Also, President Bashar Assad of Syria is coming. Issues between him and the West, in terms of pulling out of Syria, in terms of support or not support for insurgents in Iraq. So as well as all these people coming together to mourn in this great show of ecumenism, it is also an instance where many, many heads of government, heads of state who see eye-to-eye and who don't see eye-to-eye are gathered, perhaps very little time for any bilateral talks in terms of politics.
I wanted to ask you, though, John, one thing -- many things that I find really interesting is the whole notion of the conclave. Because it's not like the conclave is 2,000 years old. The first millennium of Catholicism, pope's named their successors, emperors named popes. I mean, there was quite a sort of undemocratic way about getting to the next pope.
ALLEN: Yes. I mean, there is this tendency to assume that because something is done this way now therefore it's always been done that way. But in fact, popes have been chosen in a variety of different ways. You're quite right. The tradition is that Peter, the first pope, St. Peter, actually named his own successor.
In fairly short order, it became the people of Rome sometimes by acclamation. The crowd would simply gather and point at a guy and say, "That's our pope," and that's how he got the job.
And it then became the clergy of Rome who had to it, because let's not forget the pope is also the bishop of Rome. That's one of his fundamental responsibilities. And even today the cardinals are, technically speaking, the clergy of Rome. That's why they all have a so-called titular church here that they become responsible for.
Incidentally, often, they give the American cardinals the churches that are most in the need of repair, on the theory that Americans might be able to bring some of those vast resources for which we're known to that task.
And so there are different ways. And it is conceivable in the future that there might be different ways. Paul VI talked about giving not just cardinals but also the presidents of bishops' conferences the right to vote.
So while this is an institution steeped in centuries of tradition, and romance, and so forth, it is not part of what's known as the divine constitution of the church.
AMANPOUR: Let's talk about divine constitutions. There are also teachings of this particular pontiff and the Catholic Church that are also not divine doctrine by tradition -- for instance, the issue of celibacy of priests, which is extremely controversial. And many people attribute that reason to why there's such a diminishing of priests certainly around the Western world. The issue of artificial contraception is also tradition rather than doctrine.
ALLEN: No. The artificial contraception is a matter of doctrine. That goes back to what John Paul called the culture of life, the idea being that -- and this, of course, even further than that, goes back to Paul VI's 1968 document, "Humanae Vitae." And the argument there is that every act, every sexual act, must occur within the context of monogamous marriage and it must be open to life, that is, it is wrong to close yourself out to the possibility of life.
Celibacy, on the other hand, you're quite right. For the first century, basically, of church history, priests married. In fact, Peter himself had a wife. You can go to the Capitoline Museum and see a large portrait of her, if you'd like.
And still today in the Catholic Church, in the United States alone, there are some 400 or 500 former Lutheran and Episcopalian ministers who have converted to Catholicism who were married before, have been allowed to remain married as Catholic priests.
The discipline grew up for a variety of different historical reasons. I should also point out there are 21 Eastern Rite Churches that are in communion with the Catholic Church -- that is, fully Catholic -- that have a married clergy.
So this is a tradition and a discipline that could change, depending on circumstance. Some cardinals think there might be some leeway on that, some not.
But that's a much easier problem to approach than something that is, such as the ban on women priests, such as the ban on birth control, that is actually a matter of church teaching.
COOPER: As we're looking at some of these more -- some more images of dignitaries arriving, we've got about 15 minutes before the mass. There are helicopters circling overhead, likely for security as well as for taking video images. Some Italian news helicopters circling overhead.
It's interesting, though, as you look at these images of dignitaries arriving, and as we hear the church bell, that enormous bell ringing out as it has so dramatically this past week, as it rang out when Pope John Paul II died last Saturday at 9:37 p.m.
Let's not forget that this week, I mean, has really been about people and about people turning out in extraordinary numbers. And while the pictures are refined and orderly, when you're on the street, there is an entirely different feel. I mean, there are people wrapped in blankets all night long, people, you know, standing in line, people passing out in line.
I mean, Christiane and I were out there and we saw probably at least a dozen people passing out right in front of us being whisked away. I mean, this is a story this week not just about the church and about the tradition, and the pomp, and the ceremony, which we are seeing today, it's really about people.
GALLAGHER: Well, I think it's also about people who come for a ritual, who come for the security that they found in a man who was a man of his convictions, so that whether you agreed with them or not, you appreciated the fact that he was there in some sense.
And so I think that many of these people come for that, because there is something comforting in having a leader like that in a world which is so instable. And I think that there is something comforting in participating in this ritual, even as you say, in very trying circumstances for those people who have to stay out in the cold at night on the cobblestone streets, et cetera. I don't even think they're feeling much about...
COOPER: But in terms of numbers -- I mean, I don't know that the church has seen these kind of numbers before.
John, I was reading you book, "Conclave," last night. I think some 750,000 people came over three days to see, I believe it was...
ALLEN: John Paul I.
COOPER: ... John Paul I.
COOPER: I mean, the numbers we've been seeing, I mean, millions. It's an extraordinary outpouring.
ALLEN: Yes. And a part of that, of course, we live in a age in which communications has made this pope a figure with whom so many people feel an intimate connection, even though that they perhaps never met him in the flesh.
I wanted to say, just moments ago, we saw the face of the former chief rabbi of Rome, Rabbi Toaff. One of many remarkable aspects of John Paul's pontificate is he was the first pope since the age of Peter to enter a mosque, which he did here in Rome in 1986 -- synagogue, excuse me. That's absolutely right, first pope to...
COOPER: So you could say any first and probably be right.
ALLEN: That's another conversation. But in any event, in 1986, John Paul entered the synagogue here in Rome. And he of course engineered what many people consider a revolution in the Catholic Church's relationship with Judaism.
One of his last private audiences, actually, which I was privileged to attend, was in January with 100 rabbis from various parts of the world, especially from the United States. And a group of three rabbis stood in front of the pope and sang a traditional blessing in Hebrew.
And it was the last time I saw John Paul's face, which of course, as we know at the end, sort of had this mask. And he was unable to be very expressive. It was the last time I saw him beam. I mean, he was truly happy to be in their presence and to share that moment with him.
AMANPOUR: I wonder if he'd be happy to see the president of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai. Isn't it extraordinary to see the president of perhaps the most formally fundamentalist Islamic regime in years, who persecuted all other regimes there, who, if you remember during the end of the Taliban rule, they had several Christians in prison. They were accused of proselytizing over there.
So it is incredible to see the changes that have gone on in the 26 years of his reign, not just the ones that he instituted, but global changes that have made his whole business of reconciliation more possible than it had been in the beginning of his reign.
COOPER: I wonder if we can just pause for a moment and just hear these bells ringing out over Vatican City.
Some extraordinary images, some of the sounds that we will be listening to in the next several hours of our coverage, some six hours of coverage we are anticipating here on CNN. President George Bush arriving with First Lady Laura Bush, former President Bill Clinton behind him.
AMANPOUR: And I believe the first President Bush is there, too. I don't see him yet. But we understand he came.
COOPER: As soon as they arrived just the other day, they went to St. Peter's Basilica where they prayed for the body of Pope John Paul II.
AMANPOUR: Of course, this president has reached out to Catholics in America in a very big way. There is the first President Bush, President Clinton, Condoleezza Rice. President Clinton, of course, met him several times during his presidency. So did President Bush the first.
But I think Catholicism and the whole Catholic vote was so important in the U.S. during this election. And certainly, the conservatives, the Republicans, have made a great political thing about appealing to and praying with the Catholics in the United States.
And it seemed to have worked in the election. Those who attend church regularly, Catholics, did vote for President Bush. So this is also a big political base that he's appealing to.
COOPER: And though President Bush certainly did not always see eye-to-eye with Pope John Paul II on issues like the war in Iraq, President Bush has spoken about his faith quite publicly -- and a man of faith and a man of prayer. And he wanted to be here, he said.
The White House, of course, doesn't talk about perhaps political implications for the president. This is part of the duty of being president, but also a very personal duty, of wanting to be here to share in an expression of faith.
AMANPOUR: I believe it's the first U.S. president to attend the funeral of a pope. I think what's interesting also is that, even though Pope John Paul was very vocal about disagreeing with the war in Iraq, he has -- and he has been on record as saying, implying that, in some instances, there is a just cause for intervention, humanitarian intervention, for instance, in the Balkans during the '90s, the fact that the civilians there have a legitimate right to self-defense. And if that required intervention, then that was all right.
So he did essentially sign off without doing so on the U.S. intervention in the Balkans.
COOPER: And President Bush may be the first president to come to this. Pope John Paul II was the first pope to enter the White House.
ALLEN: Yes. Two quick points. One of the reasons that President Bush is the first U.S. president to come to a papal funeral is that the United States and the Vatican have only had diplomatic relations since 1984. This is another -- we call John Paul the pope of firsts. This is another first, the first pope to open formal diplomatic relations with the United States.
And probably another point to make about the relationship between John Paul and American presidents in general is that, again, despite the fact that we have become accustomed to the press calling John Paul conservative, the truth is that there are certain issues on which the pope has a line that is quite much more liberal, particularly social justice questions.
I mean, I've always said John Paul cannot get nominated by the Democrats in the United States on those issues, because he would be seen as too liberal.
And finally, one the issue you raised, Christiane, John Paul actually coined the phrase "humanitarian intervention." This was back in the early '90s, when as -- you're quite right -- the pope said clearly he was not a pacifist. He saw civilian populations in danger. And he wanted the international community to act. He was very frustrated they wouldn't do so.
AMANPOUR: I remember very distinctly also going to Cuba when he came to Cuba, and there was so much excitement there. And he was both very clear to the Cuban authorities that they must allow the faithful to worship, but he was also clear about the United States should lift the embargo.
But also, for me, what struck me, was that he addressed the issue of capitalism. And he actually called it savage capitalism. And he said that there must be some barrier to protect the people from that.
And I think he was referring perhaps to not just Western capitalism but what he had seen in the so-called shock therapy, financial reconstruction in Soviet Union after the fall of communism and around Eastern Europe, how deeply it hurt so many people, that there needed to be some kind of safety net.
So there was a lot of nuances on many of these issues.
COOPER: We are about five minutes away from the start of this funeral mass. The scene right now in St. Peter's Square is one of stillness, people standing. There are flags fluttering in the breeze, people standing shoulder-to-shoulder, few people moving at this point.
Vatican officials have asked, have sent out the word, they do not want any more people from Rome coming to St. Peter's Square trying to come close to the Vatican. There are simply too many people at this point. Movement is too constricted, not only in St. Peter's Square, but also in the surrounding streets.
Just four minutes away from this mass. And John, as we anticipate this mass, what should we be watching for? What will we be seeing once this mass begins?
ALLEN: Well, Anderson, this is a -- the structure of this, although it of course is going to be very elaborate, is essentially a standard Catholic Mass. That is, there will be an entrance procession. There will be some opening prayer. There will be readings from scripture.
The celebrant which will be the main celebrant, which will be Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the dean of the College of Cardinals, will then give a homily. The other cardinals in attendance -- and we expect there to be some 160 cardinals, there's 183 in the world -- will be concelebrating, that is, they will be assisting Ratzinger in celebrating the mass.
Then there will be the Eucharistic prayers over the elements of bread and wine, which Catholics, of course, believe become the body and blood of Christ. Then the communion will be distributed. There will be closing prayer.
And then, of course, as Delia has already explained quite rightly, there will be final salutes given by various dignitaries, including one by representatives of Christian churches. And then, of course, the pope's body will be taken back into the basilica for eventual burial.
One bit of just political subtext to note. Cardinal Ratzinger is not just the dean of the College of Cardinals, but he is also widely considered to be one of the leading candidates to become the next pope.
COOPER: He's giving the homily?
ALLEN: And he is giving a homily, which are his own words as opposed to something that is scripted. Therefore, it will be very interesting to see what Cardinal Ratzinger has to say.
COOPER: The entrance hymn is "Eternal rest to him grant, O Lord, and may eternal light shine on him." The event, of course, being watched around the world.
Chris Burns, very quickly, right now from Krakow, where there are some 250,000 people watching these services underway -- Chris.
BURNS: That's right, Anderson. And really, that was a police estimate about 45 minutes ago, so it certainly has grown now. And the emotion that we've seen today and in the past week, really -- this is a country that's been deep in mourning for the last week. And we're seeing that once again today.
And all ages, really, many people who weren't even born at the time the pope first came in 1979 to offer that hope to the people that they could shed communism peacefully. Now, he led them to that. And 10 years later, they did, in 1989. And we're seeing this gratitude for him among all ages. Across the country, there are other cities where the same thing -- huge masses, huge crowds, with the large TV screens. Perhaps you can see that as we're panning across, as they're watching what is going on in Rome. All these people who were not able to make it to Rome and are now gathering together in paying tribute and respect and showing their love for this man who did so much for them -- Anderson.
COOPER: We're also joined by Archbishop Wilton Gregory in New York.
Archbishop, for you, the most moving part of this mass will be what? Is there a line, is there a psalm that to you really stays in your heart?
GREGORY: As I look at the readings that have been selected from the Book of the Acts and the Apostles, from Philippians, and from John, they all speak or they all allude to the Petrine office and the role of Peter in the life of the church. And of course, John Paul II was the most recent successor of Peter.
So the church turns to God's word to remind us of the importance of the office of the pontiff, as he continues the service and the ministry that Christ entrusted to Peter in our own day and age.
COOPER: And that, of course, the statue of St. Peter on top of St. Peter's Basilica.
Delia Gallagher, your thoughts as we are moments away from the start of this mass?
GALLAGHER: Well, I think two other very interesting things that we'll be seeing today after communion is the litany of saints, the very beautiful incantation to the saints that is sung and then the response is, "Pray for him." And they will go through many, many of the saints, concluding with Saint Faustina, who was the Polish saint very close to the Pope's heart.
And then following that, we'll have the Easter patriarchs that we've been discussion previously, will be also participating in giving their chance from the Byzantine liturgy. So that will be another interesting element in this funeral.
COOPER: And of course, the world is watching this event literally. We just saw in Krakow -- I want to show you from Costa Rican television right now the coverage, as well, television cameras. There are thousands of journalists here from Costa Rican television. Also from France, French television, we've seen French President Jacques Chirac here. French television is also covering this very closely.
Also, Al Jazeera, 24-hour Arab-language network, broadcast out of Qatar. The coverage from around the world, as we bring you back to our coverage at CNN.
Look at that. An extraordinary sight, Christiane. AMANPOUR: It is truly a global gathering. It is the long goodbye. "Do not be afraid." Those were the words that the Pope used. It stayed with him, inspired him, inspired people under communism all over the world. Those are words that he's lived by, words that clearly have resonated, words that those people who are gathered in the great embrace of Bernini's Colonnades have come to honor.
"Do not be afraid." His moral call for the ages has resonated.
COOPER: Archbishop Gregory, it is a day of mourning, yet it is also a day of celebration.
GREGORY: Certainly. The funeral liturgy, the rite of the burial of any Christian, is also intended to remind the faithful that we do not despair at death. Our hearts are saddened, and we certainly miss the people that we commend to the Lord, but we believe in God's mercy and we believe that they are enjoying and are called to a fuller life.
So there is a spirit of joy and hope in the liturgy that the church uses for Christian burial.
COOPER: Archbishop Gregory, do you believe that John Paul is watching all of this? Does he see this?
GREGORY: In my heart of hearts, I do believe that. I believe that this wonderful who has served us so well is pleased. And I must say from a particular vantage point, I think he's pleased at the great number of young people who are here, who really, throughout his papacy, have played an important part and often would chant, "John Paul II, we love you." I think that's what they're saying today in great numbers.
COOPER: What they're saying also right now in the square, they're saying with their hands, applause, as this funeral mass begins. Let's watch and listen.
COOPER: Cypress wood coffin, Pope John Paul II emerging from St. Peter's Basilica.
Archbishop Gregory, what part of the service are we seeing right now? What is happening?
GREGORY: Well, the placement of the body before the altar, and there will be a placement of the, I believe, the Book of the Gospels upon the casket to be followed by the concelebrating cardinals.
AMANPOUR: It's absolutely amazing to listen from our vantage point up here at this incredible applause that has gone up. People all over that square are clapping and applauding Pope John Paul II as he makes his final journey.
You've seen people raise their hands and wave. It is unusual in a funeral. But these are unusual times, and this was an unusual man.
COOPER: John Allen, the placement of the book on the casket, also done in previous funerals for the pope?
ALLEN: Well, this is actually a special touch of Pope Paul VI. In previous papal funerals, because the pope of course, in some sense, was a monarch, it would be a very elaborate casket, very ornate. Paul VI decided that he wanted to make it as simple as humanly possible. So rather than all of that ostentation, he wanted a simple wooden casket with just the Gospels sitting on top. And John Paul I and then John Paul II followed through that.
It's worth noting, just a moment ago, we caught a glimpse of the Pope's private secretary, Stanislaw Dziwisz. The whole world, of course, is grieving for the loss of John Paul II. But we have to imagine that Archbishop Dziwisz, his closest collaborator for 38 years, has got to be especially emotional today seeing all of this.
COOPER: A note to our viewers. We are going to limit our comments during the next several hours. Let's listen and watch.
Archbishop Wilton Gregory, we're listening to Psalm 64 being sung. Soon we'll be hearing the liturgy again. The cardinals, the significance of the colors they're wearing?
GREGORY: Many people in the United States would be unaccustomed to having red used as a liturgical color for a funeral. But red is the appropriate liturgical color of the Feast of the Apostles. And the Pope, because he is the successor of Peter, the prince of the apostles, is buried using the liturgical color of the apostles. It is another sign of the linkage between his office and that of the 12.
COOPER: It's also -- it's an alternative color for the last week of Lent, also, is that right?
GREGORY: There are some parts of the Triduum, the Good Friday liturgies use red. The use of red in the funeral liturgy for the pontiff is in direct relationship to the apostolic office that he has exercised.
COOPER: Let's listen in on the funeral mass of Pope John Paul II.
That is Cardinal Ratzinger, who will be officiating. He'll also be given the homily.
John Allen, who is Cardinal Ratzinger?
ALLEN: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has been one of the pope's closest, most intimate collaborators since 1983. He runs an office that is the called the Congregation for the Doctrine and the Faith, which is a historical successor of the Inquisition. And it makes him the church's top doctrinal official.
He's German. He was a theologian of the Second Vatican Council, widely considered one of the best minds on theological and doctrinal matters in the Catholic Church.
A bit of a controversial figure. People would associate him with strongly conservative doctrinal stands on many issues, especially sexual morality, of this pontificate and therefore, a bit of a polarizing figure. And looking forward, he is also considered by many to be himself a top prospect to become the next pope.
COOPER: And he will be giving the homily today as well as officiating?
ALLEN: That's right. He is also the dean of the College of Cardinals, which should be said. And the funeral mass is always celebrated by the dean of the College of Cardinals.
COOPER: Let's listen in.
CARDINAL JOSEPH RATZINGER (through translator): I confess to Almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned for my own faults, in my thoughts and in my words, my own faults, my own faults, my own most grievous faults. And I asked Blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord, our God.
And may Almighty God have mercy upon us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life. Amen.
Let us pray.
Dear God, Father and pastor of all humanity, God, the family assembled here in prayer, and grant unto your servants and our Pope John Paul, who has presided over your church in love, to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the flock that has been entrusted to him, the reward that has been promised to the faithful ministers of the Gospel.
Through our Lord, Jesus Christ, thy son, our God, who lives and reigns with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit unto the ages of ages. Amen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): This reading is taken from the Acts of the Apostles.
In those days, Peter addressed them. The truth, I have now come to realize, he said, is that God does not have favorites but that anybody of any nationality who fears God and does what is right is acceptable to him. It is true, God sent his word to the people of Israel. And it was to them that the good news of peace was brought by Jesus Christ.
But Jesus Christ is lord of all men. You must have heard about the recent happenings in Judea, about Jesus of Nazareth and how he began in Galilee, after John had been preaching baptism. God had anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and because God was with him, Jesus went about doing good and curing all who had fallen into the power of the devil.
Now I and those with me can witness to everything he did throughout the countryside of Judea and in Jerusalem itself, and also to the fact that they killed him by hanging him on a tree. Yet, three days afterwards, God raised him to life and allowed him to be seen, not by the whole people but only by certain witnesses God had chosen beforehand.
Now we are those witnesses. We have eaten and drunk with him after his resurrection from the dead. And he has ordered us to proclaim this to his people. And to tell them that God has appointed him to judge everyone, living or dead.
It is to him that all the prophets bear this witness that all who believe in Jesus will have their sins forgiven through his name. This is the word of the Lord.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): A reading from the letter of Paul to the Philippians.
As you well know, we have our citizenship in heaven. It is from there that we eagerly await the coming of our savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He will give a new form to this lowly body of ours and remake it according to the pattern of his glorified body by his power to subject everything to himself.
For these reasons, my brothers, you whom I so love and long for, you who are my joy and my crown, continue, my dear ones, to stand firm in the Lord.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): First greeting the congregation, the Lord be with you.
AMANPOUR: What you just heard there is the Gospel sung in Latin.
Delia, quickly tell us the theme of this Gospel.
GALLAGHER: Yes. That's the Gospel of John 21. And it's the theme of Jesus speaking to Peter, saying, "Do you love me?" And Peter says, "Yes." And he says, "Well, then follow me and take care of my sheep. Lead my sheep." So it's the installation really of Peter in a sense as the leader of the flock, as the shepherd.
AMANPOUR: As the first pope.
GALLAGHER: And now we will hear also the homily from Cardinal Ratzinger.
COOPER: In which "follow me" plays a key role, a phrase he repeats in this homily.
GALLAGHER: Yes. He will pick up on this Gospel, for sure.
COOPER: John Allen, some will be listening to this homily, listening to what he says and what he doesn't say, perhaps an indication of what the thought might be going to this Conclave about the election of the new pope?
ALLEN: Yes, that's right. This will be one of the first public moments when one of the cardinals is on the public stage.
CARDINAL JOSEPH RATZINGER, DEAN OF COLLEGE OF CARDINALS (through translator): And these were the last words to this disciple. "Graze your sheep, feed my sheep." These were the words which could be considered perhaps the key to understanding the message, which comes to us from the deceased Holy Father, Pope John Paul II.
And these are the seeds of immortality which he leaves us before we consign him to the Earth. They are full of hope and great gratitude. These are the feedings of our spirit.
Brothers and sisters, present here in St. Peter's Square is the very spirit of Christ in the ways of silver, in the roads of Rome, especially in this huge crowd which is silent and in prayer, I would like to salute you all. Also on behalf of the College of Cardinals, I should like to address to you the various thoughts I have to heads of government and also to delegations of various countries.
I salute the authorities and the representatives of the Christian churches gathered here and from other religions, as well. I should also like to salute and greet the archbishops, the bishops, the priests, the religious people, monks and nuns, and faithful from every continent throughout the world, especially young people whom John Paul II liked to describe...
...liked to describe as the future and the hope of the church.
I should also like to greet all parts of the world which are united with us through radio and television in this extraordinary participation and bright funeral rite of our beloved pontiff.
From the moment he was a young student, John Paul, Karol Wojtyla, was a great lover of literature and poetry. Working in a chemical factory...
...working in a chemical factory surrounded by the Nazi terror, he heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Follow me." In this very special context, he started reading books of philosophy and theology, and then went into the clandestine seminary which was founded by Cardinal Sapieha.
And then, after the war, he continued his and finished his theological studies in the Jagiellonian University of Krakow. Many, many times in his letter to the prelates and priests.
And in his writings, he spoke of his priesthood. He was ordained on 1 November, 1946, and in this text, he interprets his priesthood as beginning with the three words of the Lord. First and foremost this: "Not you have chosen me, but I have chosen you. And I have chosen you to go forth and make sure that the word of God is sown everywhere." And in this text, the Lord makes sure that his flock will be looked after.
"And then take my love, because, first of all, I love you." In this text we see the entire spirit of our Holy Father illustrated.
And he went everywhere indefatigably to take that fruit unto the peoples of the world. And this is especially prevalent in the title of his last book, "Rise and Go, Go Forth" (ph). And this is the message of the apostles of the past and of today. Rise and go, and turn your eyes to us.
The Holy Father was a priest right to the very end throughout his life because he gave his life to God, to the flock, and to the entirety -- to humankind. And he devoted, dedicated his daily life to the life of the church and, above all, to the very difficult trials of the last moments of his life. He did this with the presence of Christ.
The Lord, our shepherd, that loveth his flock and remain in my love. The head of the church who has tried to meet everyone, who has requested pardon and forgiveness for everyone, and this speaks to us even today with the words of Christ. We must learn from the teachings of Christ the art of real, genuine love. Follow me.
In July 1958, Karol Wojtyla had began his young priesthood and a new stage with Christ and behind Christ. And he set out as usual with a group of young people who were keen on canoeing on Lake Masuri. And he took with him a letter which invited him to -- letter of introduction to where the Primate of all Poland, Cardinal Wyszysnki, and tried to define the aim of this meeting. That is to say he would become auxiliary bishop of Krakow.
Leaving these scholastic (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the life with young people, canoeing and so on and so forth, he dedicated himself to knowing and studying the mystery of Christ, the mystery of humankind, so as to be able to give us all today the Christian interpretation of our very being and how we can lose our personality in Christ.
Follow me. Karol Wojtyla accepted this calling, and he listened, heeded the voice of Christ. And I think we can say how true the word of the Lord is in this respect. He who devotes his life will leave it, but he who losing it will save it. He knew this for all of us. He never wished to save his own life, to save himself. He wanted to give of himself without any reservation right to the very end, to the last minute.
He wished to give of himself to Christ and for us. And it is precisely in this way that he came to experience how the power of Christ can be renewed through poetry, through his letters. All this is absolutely visible through his pastoral mission. All throughout his writings, he gave a new freshness, a new impetus to the message, particularly through the difficult contradictions of the church.
Then in 1978 Cardinal Wojtyla, he heard once again the voice of the Lord. He renewed his dialogue with Peter. And as it said in the Gospel, "Doest thou love me, Simon, son of Peter?" In that case, heed my flock.
The Archbishop of Krakow asked him the same question in the name of Christ. And Karol Wojtyla replied in exactly the same way as Simon, son of Peter.
The life of Christ was the dominant feature of our beloved Holy Father. And he who has seen him pray and preach knows that full well. And it is thanks to this being profoundly entrenched in Christ that he was able to go beyond purely human strength and be the shepherd of Christ's flock and head of the universal church.
It is not the moment now, it is not time to talk about the achievements of this very rich pontificate. But I should just like to quote two passages from today's liturgy in which central elements of his message are contained.
In the first reading, says St. Peter -- and indeed, the pope with him -- to us, he says, "Verily I am realizing that God has no preferences amongst people. But he who fears him and who is just, he belongs to any such people and he is accepted by them and accepts them." And this, of course, he said to the sons of Israel, quoting the words of Christ, who is the Lord of everyone.
And in the second reading, that is the reading from St. Paul. What we hear very clearly is an address to brothers and sisters to remain strong in the faith, because that is how you have been taught, particularly taught by our Holy Father, John Paul II. Follow me.
Follow me. As well as the message to feed the Christian flock, Christ also announced to Peter his martyrdom. With these conclusive words, he summed up his love for his flock.
And the Lord asked for another dialogue to begun. And this is begun at the Last Supper. Here he said, "Whither goeth I, you cannot come." And Peter at this moment said, "Lord, where are you going? Whither goest thou?" And the Lord replied, "Where I am going now, you cannot follow me. But you will follow me later."
And he said this at the Last Supper. And he went to the crucifixion, to the resurrection. And then came Easter. And Peter could not follow him during that. And after the resurrection, of course, the moment came to follow him to go later.
Feeding the flock of Christ, Peter went to the cross and towards resurrection. And the Lord said the following: "When you were younger, you went wherever you wanted. But when you are old, you will stretch forth your arms and the Lord will take you, whither you do not wish to go."
In the first part of his pontificate, the Holy Father, still very strenuous and robust, in the name of the Lord went to the ends of the Earth and more and more he communed with the sufferings of Christ. And he understood better and better the truth of another teaching of Christ.
It is precisely in the communion with the suffering Christ that indefatigably he, and with renewed strength, he understood the gospel and the mystery of love which goes to the end. And he has interpreted for us the mystery of Easter and divine mercy.
He writes in his last book, "The confines which are imposed on evil are those of divine mercy." And in the same book, he also says, "Lord suffering for us all has conferred on us a new meaning to suffering and has introduced a new dimension and a new order. I believe in love. It is suffering which consumes and burns evil and flowers in many, many ways in good."
Interpreting this vision, the Christ communed with Christ, and interpreted the messages of his suffering. And his silence was so eloquent and fruitful, divine mercy.
Divine mercy. The Holy Father found the purest possible reflection of the mercy of God in the mother of Christ. He, having lost his own mother, loved the mother of God, the mother of Christ even more. And he interpreted the words of the crucifixion as something very personal. "Here is your mother," and he made the words (UNINTELLIGIBLE) entirely yours absolutely his own. And he devoted his life to the Virgin Mary and for us he remains unforgettable.
For all of us, he remains unforgettable, as on that last Easter Sunday of his life when the Holy Father, in extreme suffering, appeared once again at the window of the Apostolic Palace and one last time gave the blessing (ph). And I think we can be sure that our beloved pope...
We can be sure that our beloved pope is now at the window of the house of his father. And he sees us, and he blesses us.
RATZINGER: He's looking at us and blessing us. Yes, let them be blessed, Holy Father. And confide yourself in the Virgin Mary, in the mother of Christ, who has led us every day, who was the mother of god, the mother of Christ.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: John Allen, your reaction to the homily? ALLEN: I think it was a very moving tribute, especially to the fragility, the suffering, the service of the pope. And I think in addition to Ratzinger's words, the reaction of this crowd says it all, interrupted by applause 13 times, especially any reference to the pope's sacrifice of self and giving of self. An amazing, amazing, moment.
GALLAGHER: And I loved that image of the pope when he came to the window for the last Urbi et Orbi address, and now he's at the window of his father's house, looking down on everyone. I think that...
COOPER: This is about applause.
AMANPOUR: This is extraordinary. I don't remember a Catholic mass that was interrupted by applause. A homily before that, when the pope's coffin was brought out, people applauding.
Very specifically, when Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who has just delivered the homily, spoke of the pope's suffering, as we just said, spoke of his love of the Virgin Mary, of his cult of Divine Mercy, spoke of his love for the youth, everybody erupted in prayer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Dearly beloved brothers and sisters, let us pray to God, our father, who has gathered us together today to celebrate the Paschal mystery of his only begotten son in the funeral rites for the pastor of the universal church that he may welcome him into his peace and that he may grant every good to the church and to the world.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Pope John Paul, for Christ, the supreme passing, always living, forever lasting, may he (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for us, and that he may welcome him with love into his kingdom of light and peace. Let us pray unto the lord.
Lord, graciously hear us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): For the holy church of God, faithful to its mission, let it may be rich in renewal in Christ of the human family. Let us pray unto the Lord.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lord, graciously hear us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): For the people of all nations, so that in the respecting of justice they may form one singly family in peace and be united in brotherly feelings of love, let us pray unto the Lord.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): For the souls of the Roman pontiffs who have departed, and for all those who have announced the gospel in the church and have exercised a priestly ministry, may they be participants in the divine service in the liturgy of the glory of god in heaven, let us ask of the Lord.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): For all the leaders who have departed this life, we beseech of the lord that he will find them worthy and grant them a welcome into his heavenly kingdom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): For all those of us here gathered together, to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) having celebrated the sacred mysteries, one day we may be called into Christ, into his glorious kingdom, let us ask of the Lord, Lord, graciously hear us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Oh God, of our salvation, hear us who are calling upon thee, together with all the saints, and welcome into the assembly of your chosen ones the soul of us, your servant, and our pope, John Paul, who has trusted in the prayer of the church for Christ, our lord. Amen.
COOPER: Delia, tell us what we're looking at.
GALLAGHER: Well, we've moved in now to the second half of the mass and Liturgy of the Eucharist. This is the Offertory Procession in which people from different -- representing different countries are bringing up the gifts of the bread and wine, which will then be consecrated. It is a commemoration of the Last Supper of Jesus.
ALLEN: And I think what's striking about this particular procession is precisely the point Delia made, the universality of it. This mass, as you know, is designed -- we just heard the Prayers of the Faithful read in several different languages. And the word "Catholic," of course, means universal. And the idea of this is to demonstrate that the gospel is for all men and women for all time.
COOPER: And they're going to be giving communion, which is an extraordinary thing. I mean, for all the people on the square. Is that actually possible?
GALLAGHER: Yes. They've done it before in the papal masses. They are always very quick to have lots of priests on hand.
COOPER: Some 300, I understand.
GALLAGHER: Exactly, who will...
ALLEN: 320 is the exact number.
GALLAGHER: ... disperse into the crowd and make sure that everybody is able to receive communion.
AMANPOUR: Interesting, of course, to see the different languages in which the Offertory Prayers were said. Portuguese for Brazil, the biggest number of Catholics in Latin America; Tagalog, Philippines, the largest number of Catholics in Asia; in Swahili, the fastest- growing Catholic Church in Africa -- is in Africa. It's very interesting this, as you say, universality of this -- of this ceremony, of this liturgy.
COOPER: We've also been showing you television coverage from Lebanon, from Hong Kong, Chile, Nigeria, Costa Rica, South Korea. In a moment, we're going to show you television live in Egypt. They, too, are watching this broadcast.
AMANPOUR: And it is extraordinary when you see this unbelievable pageant, this panoply of cardinals and archbishops in their crimson and their magenta. You see that simple wooden coffin with the Book of Gospels on top. And in the background, you see all these different religious apparel, the fezzes, the turbans, the great Eastern Orthodox head dresses.
It's amazing to see this enormous, enormous gathering of faiths, ethnicities, creeds from all over the world.
ALLEN: One point that should be made, of course, that John Paul II was an enormous believer in inter-religious dialogue, the outreaching to the faiths. One thinks, for example, of the 1986 gathering that he organized in Assisi, where he invited the religious leaders of humanity to pray together with him for peace. And he had to do that, by the way, over the opposition of even of some of his own aides, who felt that that might promote a kind of religious relativism, suggesting that Catholicism was simply one of many religions.
AMANPOUR: And didn't you notice during Cardinal Ratzinger's homily there that he actually spoke about not the relativism or the secularism, but he actually held the line in this homily, didn't he, on fidelity to the doctrine?
ALLEN: Yes. And, of course, this wasn't a doctrinal moment. This was a reflection on John Paul's life and legacy. But that's quite right.
And actually, Cardinal Ratzinger himself was a bit critical of the prayer gathering -- the gathering in Assisi in 1986. But that is a theme that has endured throughout John Paul's pontificate.
COOPER: We're also joined by Archbishop Wilton Gregory.
Archbishop, as you watch, what goes through your mind?
GREGORY: I was deeply touched by Cardinal Ratzinger's homily. He really -- he really gave a wonderful reflection on scripture, doing exactly what a homily is supposed to do -- to take God's word and apply it to our contemporary situation. And he did so in such a personal way, using the Holy Father's life as kind of a reflection of how Christ calls this new Peter to do what he called the first Peter to do, to love the church, to care for it, to follow him unreservedly. And, of course, that is the life of Pope John Paul II.
COOPER: Cardinal Ratzinger spoke, saying, "Our hearts are full of sadness, yet at the same time of joyful hope and profound gratitude."
AMANPOUR: Let's just note that while we speak we are in now one of the holy supreme moments of the entire mass. That will come in a few moments, when Cardinal Ratzinger performs the Transubstantiation, where Catholics believe very, very deeply that this is not symbolic, that the wine and the bread don't just symbolize the body and the blood, but do become the body and blood of Christ.
ALLEN: That's absolutely right, Christiane. And it's worth noting that we are now in the year that John Paul II has designated as a Eucharistic Year.
His last encyclical, the most important form of papal writing, is dedicated to the Eucharist. And in October, he has called bishops of the worlds together for a synod -- that's a meeting of bishops -- on the Eucharist.
So this was a point that was incredibly central to this pope. He spent hours in his private chapel before the tabernacle, which is where the bread and wine are -- the bread, rather, the consecrated bread is reserved. And in that sense, a very appropriate moment.
COOPER: Let's watch.
RATZINGER (through translator): Pray, my brothers and sisters, that this, my sacrifice, may be acceptable unto God the Almighty Father, the way he accepted the sacrifice of (UNINTELLIGIBLE), the praising glory of his name for our good, and that of all his holy church.
Father of infinite mercy, this liturgy which thy servant now posture, John Paul, when he was with us, did celebrate for the salvation of the people, may it now be for him today a means of pardon and of peace through Jesus Christ, our lord. Amen.
RATZINGER (through translator): The Lord be with you.
RATZINGER (through translator): Let us give thanks to the Lord, our God. It is right) to give him thanks and praise. This very (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and for our salvation to give thanks at all times and at all places unto thee, oh Lord, Holy Father, and almighty God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord, who showed me the glory of our salvation in Christ and gave us the hope of a blessed resurrection. And if we are saddened by the certainty that we must die, that thou has consoled us with the promise of future immortality. And to the faithful, oh Lord, life is not taken away but transformed. And while maybe destroyed the habitation of our earthly exile, a habitation will be prepared for us that is eternal in heaven.
And for this mystery of salvation, united now with all the angels and the saints, let us now sing the Hymn of Praise without end.
RATZINGER (through translator): We come to you, Father, with praise and thanksgiving through Jesus Christ, your son. Through him, we ask you to accept and bless these gifts we offer you in sacrifice.
We offer them first for your holy Catholic Church. Watch over it, Lord, and guide it. Grant it peace and unity throughout the world.
With all our Orthodox and Catholic bishops, remember, Lord, your people, especially those for who we now pray. Remember all of us gathered here before you. You know how firmly we believe in you and dedicate ourselves to you.
We offer you this sacrifice of praise for ourselves and for those who are dear to us. We pray to you, our living and true God, for our wellbeing and redemption.
In union with the whole church, we honor Mary, the ever virgin mother of Jesus Christ, our Lord and God. We honor Joseph, her husband, the apostles and the martyrs, Peter and Paul, Andrew, James, John, Thomas, James, Philip, Bartholomew, Simon and Jude. We honor Linus, Cletus, Clement, Sixtus, Cornelius, Cyprian, Lawrence, Chrysogonus, John and Paul, Cosmas and Damian, and all the saints. May their merits and prayers gain us your constant help and protection.
Father, accept this offering from your whole family. Grant us your peace in this life, and save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen.
The day before he suffered, he took bread in his sacred hands. And looking up to heaven, to you, his Almighty Father, he gave you thanks and praise. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said, "Take this, all of you, and eat it. This is my body which will be given up for you."
When supper was ended, he took the cup. Again he gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples, and said, "Take this, all of you, and drink from it. This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all men so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.
Let us proclaim the Mystery of Faith. Savior of the world, save us, for thou has liberated us by thy cross and by thy resurrection.
RATZINGER (through translator): Father, we celebrate the memory of Christ, your son. We your people and your ministers recall his passion, his resurrection from the dead and his ascension into glory. And from the many gifts you have to given us, we offer to you, God of glory and majesty, this holy and perfect sacrifice, the bread of life and the cup of eternal salvation.
Look with favor upon these offerings, and accept them as once you accepted the gifts of your servant Abel, the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith, and the bread and wine offered by your priest Melchizedek. Almighty God, we pray that your angel may take this sacrifice to your altar in heaven. Then, as we receive from this altar the sacred body and blood of your Son, let us be filled with every grace and blessing.
Remember, Lord, our pontiff and pope, John Paul, whom was called today from the world, and my servants who have proceeded us marked with the sign of faith. May those and these and all we seek in Christ find in your presence life and happiness and peace.
For us sinners, also we ask some share in the fellowship of your apostles and martyrs, John the Baptist, Stephen, Matthias, Honabus (ph), Ignatius, Alexander, Masadinas (ph), Peter, Felicity (ph), Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy (ph), Agnes, Cecelia, Anastasia, and all the saints.
Though we are sinners, we trust in your mercy and love. Do not consider what we truly deserve, but grant us your forgiveness.
Through Christ, our Lord, you give us all these gifts. You fill them with life and goodness. You bless them and you make them holy.
Through Him, with Him and in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is yours, oh Mighty Father, forever and ever. Amen.
CHOIR: Amen. Amen. Amen.
RATZINGER (through translator): According to my command and by divine institution, we are bold to say, Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Deliver us, we beseech thee, oh Lord, from every evil and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy, keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ.
For the kingdom, the power and the glory are yours now and forever. Amen.
Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles I leave you peace, my peace I give you. Look not on our sins but on the faith of your church and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live forever and ever. Amen.
CROWD: Amen. RATZINGER (through translator): The peace of the Lord be always with you and with your spirit.
Let us, in the spirit of the resurrected Christ, give each other a sign of peace.
The love of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy upon us. Oh Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy upon us.
RATZINGER (through translator): Behold the Lamb of God, behold Him who takes away the sins of the world. Lord, I am not worthy that you should come under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be His.
RATZINGER (through translator): Shine upon him, oh Lord, with all thy saints in eternity for thou art merciful.
RATZINGER (through translator): I cried unto thee, oh Lord.
COOPER: You are watching an extraordinary sight, St. Peter's Square, holy communion, a square which holds some 150,000 people. There are 320 priests who are involved in giving communion to everyone in the square who wants to receive it.
ALLEN: You know it is a frightening thing that John Paul II, being of course the most traveled pope in history, 104 trips to 129 nations, the Vatican Office of the Church of the Celebrations, that's the office that coordinates the events such as this, has had a tremendous amount of experience in being able to put together events like this.
And of course one of the most complicated logistical moments is precisely this, making sure that everyone who is participating in the mass who wants to receive communion is able to do it. And they really do have it down to a fine art. And you would think the task of doing this, not just getting it done, but in a reverential manner befitting the spiritual nature of the mass, would be very complicated. But as you watch it unfolding, it actually is very orderly, very sober.
COOPER: And we've also got Archbishop Gregory who is standing by watching this along with us. It's a remarkable sight, archbishop, to see so many people receiving communion all at once.
GREGORY: The orchestration of the distribution of holy communion for a ceremony like this is extraordinary. It tends to run a lot longer than an ordinary parish mass. As a matter of fact, communion will be distributed long after the cardinals have finished communicating and the -- sometimes even after the prayer for communion has been offered.
But it's done carefully and with decorum and reverence in order to allow people who may be at some distance from the altar to receive holy communion. So you will see this go on for a good while longer.
AMANPOUR: And of course one of the interesting things about the Catholic masses, in the crowd there you have people from all over the world that speak different languages, of course this mass was said in Latin by Cardinal Ratzinger. And yet, even if you don't understand the Latin, you can follow each phase of the mass because it doesn't change from country to country.
ALLEN: And of course being this as -- being the most traveled priest, and we have seen so many massive gatherings, four million people in the Philippines when he visited there. It is a logistical challenge to give communion to that many people, but it has been done. They know how to do this very, very well.
ALLEN: I think something that is so incredible, I think, is just during our generation that the church introduced the handshake of peace, the gesture of peace. And I remember when that first came in and certain traditionalists didn't like that at all. It was one of these sort of modern introductions into the church that's a little bit too touchy feely, but it's very moving to see all these people actually in various parts of the Vatican, the roads leading up, turning around and shaking each other's hands. And one wonders whether the dignitaries did. It's a very moving sight.
AMANPOUR: Well here it's even a kiss of peace, as well, an embrace.
COOPER: And final...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lech Walesa.
ALLEN: To be perfectly honest, it was not a new introduction, it was the restoration of a ritual that goes back to the earliest centuries that the assembly was invited to share a sign of peace before they received Holy Communion. It was new because it had not been used for many centuries. But it's actually an ancient ritual that was reintroduced with the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.
GREGORY: And one other point to be made is that when the communion is distributed, the priest will hold up the consecrated host and say to the communicant this is the body of Christ, to which the response is amen. And of course there were reports that that may in fact have been the pope's last word, amen. And so it's an especially poignant moment in light of what we've seen in these days.
COOPER: Want to show you also the Polish television right now. A moment ago we saw Lech Walesa, former head of Solidarity. That is...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cardinal... COOPER: That's Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz, the pope's closest, most intimate collaborator.
That image being seen on Polish Television. That is Polish Television right there.
It's Chris Burns standing by in Krakow where we saw several hundred thousand. And the last count was 250,000. It's probably grown by then.
Chris, the scene where you are now.
BURNS: Anderson, what we have are at least 300,000 people, perhaps more than that here, watching the mass and the ceremonies on the large screens here at the front next to the stage.
This is a scene that we're seeing across Poland today. There are many cities, major cities, where there are huge crowds of people who have gathered to pay their last respects. You don't see a lot of tears, but you see, because this nation has been mourning for the past week.
We've seen a lot of touching scenes here in Krakow. Outside the apostolic residence, the window from which the pope used to sing and speak to his people, they were playing even recordings of him speaking in the last couple of days and showing pictures of him on the wall at the next church next door. Very moving scenes as people were crying and leaving candles. And now it seems to be this last moment of saying goodbye, showing their respect for the most part. Anderson.
COOPER: Chris, have people received communion there?
BURNS: Yes. The priest said a little bit earlier that they would be available to give communion for those who did not receive it before the funeral ceremonies. There was a mass before, here, before the funeral that many attended. And since then, of course many thousands more have gathered here, now more than 300,000. So the priests are going through the audience offering communion to them right now.
COOPER: Chris Burns live in Krakow.
Let's come back to St. Peter's Square as we watch nearing toward the end of this funeral mass.
AMANPOUR: Well they still have to commend the body and soul of John Paul II and still do the actual funeral prayers after the communion ritual is over.
Very touching, I think, and significant to see the now elderly face of Lech Walesa in the crowd there, just sitting there. Obviously huge delegations from Poland. Big signs I've seen saying Gdansk, which is the shipyard where he first formed Solidarity. And you know history will record that this pope stood by and gave his sense of solidarity, courage, blessing and real, not just Catholic, but political support, to a movement that undid communism in his own country. And alongside him in that effort was Lech Walesa, the head of Solidarity, and of course started the dominoes falling all over Eastern Europe. It's a very moving moment to see his image there.
COOPER: CNN's Rome Bureau Chief Alessio Vinci is in the crowd.
Alessio, you have covered this pope for so long, what is the scene where you are?
VINCI: Anderson, I think that the one thing that I really see happening all around me here, even if we are several hundreds of meters away from St. Peter's Square, is this great sense of participation in this mass. It is, of course, a beautiful mass. As you can hear the hymns and the bells tolling, people really feel so close virtually to St. Peter's Square, even if they are unable to see it themselves.
We are able to get a glimpse of the square from our position, of course, because we are higher up. But the people down below us, they can't seem to see it. They are watching the ceremonies in St. Peter's Square just on giant television screens, but they are really participating to this prayer with deep emotions.
And another thing that really struck me much was Cardinal Ratzinger. When he began talking, he really looked extremely emotional. I think that those of us who had an opportunity to see him and interview him a few times, he is a German of the highest standards, if you want, a person who rarely shows his emotions. And I think that his trembling voice, fighting back tears I would say almost from the beginning, almost really gave us a very good idea about how emotional this ceremony is being and how emotional it is for him.
And then one pilgrim pointed out to me -- I'm not sure whether we have one of our cameras who can point on the coffin of the pope. But as you know, the Book of the Gospel was left open on the coffin of John Paul II at the beginning of the mass. And one pilgrim here pointed out to me that actually the wind has then has closed it, as if to symbolize, if you want, the end of John Paul II's life.
COOPER: In a moment we're going to talk to Jim Bittermann, as well as Bill Hemmer, who's also in the crowd.
John Allen, your thoughts.
ALLEN: I just wanted to know, Christiane, you were talking about the Solidarity signs and the strong Polish presence here. But of course the Poles are not the only ones in attendance. We saw a few moments ago, during Cardinal Ratzinger's homily, there were also some signs in Italian, including one especially touching one. Several signs saying santo subito, which in Italian means a saint soon, reflecting this kind of popular desire to see John Paul, not just to go down in history as "the Great", but to see him also go down as St. John Paul.
COOPER: Jim Bittermann, you were here in this square some 26 years ago when this -- when Karol Wojtyla became Pope John Paul II. The scene where you are.
BITTERMANN: Well, Anderson, you know for me one of the most striking is that we've been, Alessio and I have been to scores and perhaps maybe even hundreds of papal masses right out here on the steps of St. Peter's. And the thing that seems so odd is not to see Pope John Paul II participating in some way.
In the last years, of course, he wasn't able to celebrate completely the mass, but he was able at least to participate. And of course he's here today but in quite a different fashion. It's very, very strange to hear the homily, then know that it was written by Joseph Ratzinger and not by the pope. It's just an odd feeling that of transition.
And also kind of an odd thought that you know of these people, the cardinals up here dressed in red, kind of celebrating this mass this morning, one of them very shortly, in about two to three weeks, is going to be the next pope here.
COOPER: Bill Hemmer in the crowd also.
HEMMER: Anderson, it is stunning the tone that has truly changed over the past two hours. At the beginning of this mass, we saw a number of people almost sprinting to get a better view and to get a better position down here. And for the past two hours, this is a crowd that has stood in silence out of respect for the life of Pope John Paul II.
You mentioned the Sign of Peace a few moments ago. There are Italian police officers in this crowd shaking hands with Polish mourners. There are nuns in the balconies above peering through binoculars all throughout St. Peter's. Many people kneeling on the cobblestone.
And we were told that more than 300 priests would be distributing communion throughout St. Peter's. They are still moving through the crowd where I am. And they will look and they will search and they will stop and they will distribute communion. And so much respect now being shown as the service continues.
Pope John Paul II, a man who lived his life without walls. He would be quite proud to see this picture today -- Anderson.
AMANPOUR: And as we just see the images of President Hamid Karsai of Afghanistan, looking reflective, obviously. The king and queen of Jordan, King Abdullah II and Queen Rania of Jordan.
Let's just go to Jonathan Mann who is also observing this and who's been watching the world leaders and the pilgrims come here to Rome over the last week -- Jonathan.
MANN: What is so striking, Christian, is that so many people and so many people in Muslim nations have an opportunity to watch this mass unfold. Al Jazeera is carrying this. We saw Pakistan Television carrying this. These are primarily Muslim states, of course, where Catholicism is not well understood.
And with this one ceremony, the two most powerful themes of the Catholic Church are being taught to the world that doesn't know it. The themes of communion, of course, that Christ is available to all. And the theme of the funeral that man is mortal but has the promise of everlasting life.
If you wanted to take a moment and experience that would spread what the Catholic Church has been teaching for 2,000 years to people who don't normally hear from the church, this is the ceremony, this is the event, this is the message.
And I think that even in conversations I've had with the clergy here in Rome over the past few days, they are delighted. They value the message that the media is spreading, not only because they are eager to see the pope honored, but the message of the church is being spread to places where the church is, quite frankly, not welcome. And that's what we're seeing here today.
AMANPOUR: And as we see, also, obviously communion being such the most solemn part of this mass. The whole point of mass is to reach the crescendo of communion. And you can see that even on the hard cobblestones of the outside, those who can are kneeling.
There we see the king and queen of Sweden. Just before that we saw the queen of Spain with her lace mantilla on her head. Spain, a very Catholic country.
RATZINGER (through translator): May God granted us to enjoy the foretaste of eternal life at this eucharistic table. Grant unto thy servants that Pope John Paul to enter with your saints into the fullness of the truth, which he confirmed with apostolic courage with his brothers and sisters, through Christ, our Lord. Amen.
AMANPOUR: John and Delia, now that communion is over, we are heading into the final commendation and farewell.
GALLAGHER: That's right. It will be -- there will be a final blessing here by Cardinal Ratzinger, and then we'll go into the litany of the saints, a ritual from the Byzantine liturgy by the patriarchs. And then we will have the final blessing, the conclusion of the mass.
ALLEN: And that business of the oriental patriarchs, once again illustrating the universality of the church. And there's a tendency for people to think that the Roman Catholic Church is just West. But the truth is throughout the world, in the Middle East, in Asia, there are other Eastern Churches with centuries of history, small, but important, that are in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church. And this, the use of both Latin and Greek in this moment synthesizes and expresses that.
AMANPOUR: Again, huge applause has gone up as those people sense that this is now the moment of final thanks, final farewell, final affection and admiration for the life of Pope John Paul II.
COOPER: It's really the last time they will see that pontiff.
COOPER: An extraordinary moment.
John Allen, what are they chanting?
ALLEN: The word is santo, which is the Italian word for saint. Obviously expressing their desire to see John Paul canonized. And you know this is how a process of sainthood is supposed to work in the Catholic Church. It's supposed to be the most democratic process. It starts with spontaneous public devotion and then is ratified after the church. And here we see those signs, santo subito, a saint soon. It's insistent. The crowd is refusing to break away.
AMANPOUR: And I'm sure this is the way it should happen, this popular acclimation that I don't think we've ever seen this in our lifetime.
ALLEN: No. I mean the closest parallel I suppose would be perhaps Padre Pio, who was a figure of some controversy at the official levels in the church, but has always had an enormous popular devotion. The difference is Padre Pio has had enormous popular following in Italy. John Paul has this enormous popular following universally.
AMANPOUR: And just as we look at that coffin and you see the cross and the letter "M," let's just say that that is for the Virgin Mary...
AMANPOUR: ... his particular devotion.
GALLAGHER: That's from the pope's coat of arms, a motto for Mary, the pope's motto, "Totus Tuus," "I am all yours." That was his devotion to the Virgin Mary.
COOPER: Jim Bittermann, you were here for the funeral of the last pope.
Was there a moment like this?
BITTERMANN: No, nothing like this. Nothing at all. In fact, with John Paul I, he had only been pope for a very short period of time, 34 days. So, in fact, there really wasn't the kind of public demonstration that you're seeing today.
Twenty-six years in office is a long time. And I think that the world leaders are just a testament to the way the pope traveled everywhere and brought the message everywhere. I mean most of these world leaders are people, a lot of them are people that he met.
These cardinals, he made more than 270 cardinals during his pontificate. So many innovations took place. You know, we were talking earlier about the languages being spoken in the mass, my recollection is that a lot of that may have started under Pope John Paul II, bringing out a multi-lingual church, a multi-cultural church in a way that really wasn't there so much under the Italian pontiffs for so many centuries.
COOPER: Let's -- for a man who was known as the pope of the people, let's listen to what the people are saying right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MOURNERS: Giovanni Paolo! Giovanni Paolo! Giovanni Paolo! Giovanni Paolo! Giovanni Paolo!
COOPER: The crowd now saying, "Giovanni Paolo!"
AMANPOUR: It is, as we've been talking amongst ourselves now and listening...
GALLAGHER: Look at the face of Cardinal Ratzinger (UNINTELLIGIBLE) And he's waiting. He's letting them chant. He's letting it go on.
AMANPOUR: But this is a staggering sight. There hasn't been anything like this in this particular kind of forum before. And it is amazing. And I'll tell you what. I bet you that all of those foreign leaders from around the world are taking good note of all the people who are standing down there wondering what this is. Perhaps they've never been exposed to this much Catholicism before, this much ritual. And this, I think, is probably a moment of great pride for the Catholic Church, because here they're showing that millions of pilgrims can come to one city and be peaceful, organized, determined, can raise their voices with acclimation, without running riot, without causing any mayhem.
This has been the most remarkable gathering of millions on one city for one event.
COOPER: Look at that little boy clapping as best he can.
This is a scene, really, we have seen all week long. This is the kind of energy, the kind of passion, the kind of love which we have witnessed.
RATZINGER (through translator): Dearest brothers and sisters, let us trust unto the most tender mercies of god the soul of our Pope John Paul, bishop of the Catholic Church, who confirmed his brothers in the faith of the resurrection. Let us pray, God the father, through Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit for departed pontiff so that rising from the dead, he may be welcomed into the peace of his kingdom and resurrected his body on the last day.
May the most blessed Virgin Mary, queen of the apostles and salvation of Roman people intercede with God so that he may share the faith of his son, blessed son, to our father the pope, and console the church with the light of his resurrection.
Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for him. Holy Mary, mother of the church, pray for him.
Holy Mary, salvation of the Roman people, pray for him.
Holy Michael, Gabriel and Raphael, pray for him.
All the holy angels, pray for him.
Holy Joseph, pray for him.
Holy John the Baptist, pray for him.
All the holy patriarchs and prophets, pray for him.
Holy Peter and Paul, pray for him.
Holy Andrew, pray for him.
Holy James and Jacob, pray for him.
Holy Thomas, pray for him.
Holy Matthew, pray for him.
Holy Matthias, pray for him.
Holy Luke, pray for him.
Holy Mark, pray for him.
("THE LITANY OF THE SAINTS," SPEAKING IN LATIN)
RATZINGER (through translator): Oh God, who gives the just rewards to those who labor in the Gospel, welcome thy servant, our Pope John Paul, and grant that he may contemplate in eternity the mystery of the peace and love that he, as a successor of Peter and pastor of the church, faithfully gave to his life family through Jesus Christ Our Lord.
(PRAYERS OF EASTERN CHURCHES, IN LATIN)
COOPER: This is the prayer of the Eastern Churches. The significance -- John.
ALLEN: Well, you know, Pope John Paul II, of course, being from Eastern Europe himself, being a Slav, had this great passion for trying to put the East and the West back together. He used to talk about the need for Europe to breathe with both its lungs, Eastern and Western. No pope probably in history showed a greater deference and concern for the Eastern Churches than John Paul.
And, of course, the Roman Catholic Church includes all of that. It's universal.
COOPER: And coming up, we'll see the patriarch incensing the body of the pope. That's coming up.
(PRAYERS OF EASTERN CHURCHES, IN LATIN)
UNIDENTIFIED EASTERN CHURCH RELIGIOUS LEADER (through translator): Oh, God and spirits in all flesh who have destroyed death and has overcome the power of the devil and given life to the world, grant rest to the soul of this, thy servant, departed John Paul, Pope of Rome, in a place of light and in a place of joy and in a place of green pastures; in a place of blessing, where there is no more suffering nor saying najes (ph).
(UNIDENTIFIED EASTERN CHURCH RELIGIOUS LEADER, PRAYER IN LATIN)
UNIDENTIFIED EASTERN CHURCH RELIGIOUS LEADER (through translator): Father, forgive his every sin committed, whether in thought or in word or deed, for though art a good God and thou lovest mankind, for there is no man living who has not sinned (UNINTELLIGIBLE) without sin. And thy righteousness is from all eternity to all eternity and thy word is true. For thou art the resurrection, the life and the repose of this, thy servant, John Paul, Pope of Rome, who has fallen asleep in Christ. Our God, unto thee do we give glory, with thy Father, who is without beginning and with the Holy Spirit, who is good, and the giver of life, now and ever and unto the ages of ages.
(PRAYERS OF EASTERN CHURCHES, IN LATIN)
UNIDENTIFIED EASTERN CHURCH RELIGIOUS LEADER (through translator): And to those in the tombs, he has given life.
(PRAYERS OF EASTERN CHURCHES, IN LATIN)
UNIDENTIFIED EASTERN CHURCH RELIGIOUS LEADER (through translator): And never to be forgotten, forever and ever, amen. Christ is risen from the dead, destroying death by death. And to those in the tombs he has given life.
(PRAYERS OF EASTERN CHURCHES, IN LATIN)
AMANPOUR: You've just heard the prayer of the Eastern Catholic Churches, with the metropolitans and the archbishops singing that distinctly Eastern tone. You can hear their prayers, their songs, the blessing of the coffin with incense.
Now they have returned to their place and there will be, shortly, a moment of silence.
(SINGING IN LATIN)
COOPER: Cardinal Ratzinger has just put Holy Water on the casket of Pope John Paul II. You see the water there. He's now incensing the casket. The choir is singing, "I believe the Lord is risen and alive and one day I also will rise with him, that I may contemplate you, my God and my Savior." AMANPOUR: And, of course, this is all about the moment of resurrection. You can see that in the painting that is being hung on the doors of St. Peter just behind, a painting of the risen Christ.
COOPER: The symbolism of the water -- and, of course, Catholicism is a tradition that's rich in symbolism. The water is the water of baptism. It's the way in which people are entered into, welcomed into their new life that the church promises. And so once again this is a reminder of the water of life, the new life, the eternal life in which Catholicism believes that John Paul has now entered.
AMANPOUR: And, again, we should say, Delia, that we are fully now into the funeral prayers, the commendation of the soul of Pope John Paul II to eternal life.
GALLAGHER: In fact, we're reaching the end. And as Anderson said, they're singing precisely that moment now, which suggests the beatific vision, that point when Christians believe you die and you actually see the face of Christ. And the symbolism of putting the veil over the pope's face before he was closed in the coffin refers to that, that when he dies he will see the face of Christ.
COOPER: Let's watch these last few moments and listen.
RATZINGER (through translator): Most merciful Father, we entrust to thy great mercy, our Father John Paul, that thou hast made successor to Peter and pastor of the church, a brave announcer of thy word and a faithful dispenser of thy divine mysteries. Admit, we pray thee oh, Lord, him into the sanctuary of heaven that he may enjoy eternal glory with all of the angels (ph) and saints (ph). We give thee thanks, oh, Lord, for all of the blessings that in thy goodness thou hast given him and for the good of thy people.
And for the church, now deprived of its pastor, graciously grant the comfort of faith and the strength of hope to thee, oh, Father, and to him risen from the dead with the life-giving spirit through Jesus Christ, who destroyed death, may be all honor and glory for the ages of ages. Amen. May the angels lead thee into paradise. May the martyrs welcome thee into heaven. And may thy accompany thee into the Holy Jerusalem. May the choir of angels welcome thee. And, as with Lazarus, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on Earth, may you now enjoy eternal rest in heaven.
COOPER: The coffin of Pope John Paul II will be carried inside St. Peter's Basilica, while the "Magnificat" is sung. The "Magnificat," Mary's song, where she accepts her vocation as the mother of Jesus.
AMANPOUR: OK. And a huge applause as the crowd sensing that this is the last they're going to see.
GALLAGHER: They don't want to let him go. COOPER: They will show the casket to the crowd one last time, and then they will take it inside, away from the television cameras, where surrounded by close friends -- people who have been with John Paul II even before he was John Paul II -- they'll watch him be laid to rest.
AMANPOUR: And, of course, all of the leaders, the religious leaders, the cardinals there with all their different administrative positions, will go in as well. And then, the coffin will be placed inside what they call the Grotto in the crypt under St. Peter's Basilica. And there, this coffin that we're looking at now goes into yet another one, John.
ALLEN: That's right. It will go into a metal coffin, and then yet a third coffin made of oak. And that, of course, according to the pope's wishes -- and these were his specific wishes -- will not be placed into a sarcophagus, but, of course, 148 popes buried with a lot -- most of them are in sarcophagi, which is a sign of nobility in the ancient world. But as a gesture of his own humility, he wished to be buried in the earth with a simple stone tablet.
We're, of course, looking now at the image of the Madonna in St. Peter's Square, which was placed there according to John Paul's specific wish, and a very strong sense of Mary's guidance throughout his life. He believes, actually, in this very square...
COOPER: We're going to show you...
ALLEN: ... on May 13, 1981 that Madonna saved him.
COSTELLO: This is the animation of where John Paul's casket will be taken inside the Basilica. Again, this is away from television cameras, so we've made this animation for you.
John Allen, what are we seeing?
ALLEN: Well, we saw the procession of the coffin down the nave. Now, we're going to down the stairs to the grotto, where the popes are buried. And we will be going to the eventual resting place of the pope's coffin, which, of course, was the resting place of John Paul XXIII, an object of enormous popular devotion himself in the Catholic Church, the pope which Pope John Paul II actually beatified.
AMANPOUR: And didn't they raise his coffin to the main floor, so to speak, of the basilica because so many people wanted to see him?
ALLEN: Well, it's not just that, but also because he was beatified. And it's traditional that when someone is beatified, they are actually placed beneath an alter. So, John XXIII was brought up, placed beneath an altar. And the symphony (ph) between these two popes, I think, it's very fitting, sort of poetically appropriate that John Paul II would end up in his place.
COOPER: I was reading in your book, "Conclave," that when John XXIII was beatified, there were people crying out, just as we've seen people crying out from the crowds tonight. ALLEN: Yes. John XXIII, or Good Pope John as he was known, had a magic, magic connection with the people of Italy and all over the world. And in a very different way, obviously, John Paul II was his own man. But he in a sense replicated that magic.
AMANPOUR: And as we've just seen again, images of various different television stations from around the world showing the funeral mass. We just saw Cuba. And, you know, we have to just pause a little bit and talk about the relevance of that. Pope John Paul II went to Cuba in 1998. He called very clearly and very loudly for the communist authorities, Fidel Castro, to relax their grip on religious worship, religious freedom. And, again, that was perhaps one of his -- some sort of disappointment.
As you can see, again, the gentlemen -- the Papal Gentlemen are getting ready to lift the coffin of Pope John Paul II.
He didn't really, really get what he wanted in Cuba.
GALLAGHER: Well, I think that the pope understood history and the time that it takes, and he felt it was probably enough to put it all in motion. I don't think he needed to live to see the results.
COOPER: Let's listen to the crowd as the Papal Gentlemen prepare to carry the coffin.
COOPER: Pope John Paul II returning to St. Peter's Basilica one last time to cries, shouts of adoration of hundreds of thousands, from the packed St. Peter's Square and also the outlying streets. An extraordinary moment.
AMANPOUR: It is truly humbling indeed to be witnessing such devotion, not just the popes, which people obviously recognize today, but the devotion of the faithful, who have let out one last burst of emotion as they've seen the casket of their pope enter St. Peter's Basilica again in order to be laid to rest in the grotto. That one bell tolling for the pope.
And as you saw just before the casket was taken inside, the Papal Gentlemen who had it carried on their shoulders, turned around, one final salute, one final good-bye with the casket facing the crowds who have come out to bid farewell.
COOPER: Let's listen as the bells continue to chime and the crowds continue to applaud.
Earlier, in his homily, Cardinal Ratzinger said, "Our hearts are full of sadness, yet at the same time a joyful and profound gratitude". Delia.
GALLAGHER: And also remembering that this was a simple, simple man, who came from Poland, to live in -- a country priest, and to have arrived at this. He achieved all of that in his 26 years, and I think he fully deserves this outstanding applause and affection.
ALLEN: You know, I think I will remember it until the day I die, that moment shortly before the Litany of Saints when the crowd spontaneously burst out in that chant, "Santo, Santo, Santo," just before the Litany, in which 73 saints were mentioned by name. Obviously, this crowd would like to see a 74th added to that list, in a just spontaneous wellspring of affection and admiration.
GALLAGHER: And I think you could say that surely that that will happen.
COOPER: How quickly is something like that possible nowadays?
ALLEN: Well, there's a mandatory five-year waiting period under church law for a process for beautification and canonization can begin, although we should note a pope can waive that period if he wishes to, as John Paul II did with Mother Teresa in obvious recognition of her saintity which was transparent to everyone. It will be very interesting to see if the new pope, who will be elected in fairly short order, would make a similar decision on behalf of John Paul II.
AMANPOUR: As we watch now, again, the dignitaries, you see President Bush and his wife, Laura. You see many of the women wearing the traditional veil, the mantilla, the black-laced veil over their heads as they take part in these very solemn funeral services (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
COOPER: Let's talk about what's happening, though, now. This ceremony, the service is not over. The public part, the part that we can see, is over. But inside St. Peter's Basilica, what is happening right now -- Delia.
GALLAGHER: That's right. They've gone down now into the crypt, as we saw earlier on your visual. And they will be saying a few more prayers. They wrapped the first coffin in a red ribbon. They seal it with a seal of the Papal Household. And then, they will put that into another metal coffin. And, again, that metal coffin into a third coffin, and then it will go into the ground for the final burial.
COOPER: This is an animation of where right now the pope's body, the coffin is being taken through that extraordinary -- under that extraordinary dome at St. Peter's Basilica, down into the grotto.
GALLAGHER: That's right. That's down where St. Peter is buried and down into the grotto there, where the other 66 crypts are.
ALLEN: We saw just a moment ago an image of the elderly former chief rabbi of Rome, Rabbi Toaff, as he was moving away. It's interesting to note that it was, of course, Rabbi Toaff who greeted John Paul II when he came to the Rome synagogue in 1986. Rabbi Toaff is one of the few people who was actually mentioned in the pope's will. He mentions how important that meeting was. And it's another sign of how important this child of Wadowice, who grew up and lived a mere 15 kilometers or so from Auschwitz, how important healing that relationship between Christianity and Judaism obviously was.
AMANPOUR: And Cardinal Ratzinger in his homily, of course, summoned all elements of the pope's life, including having lived under Nazi occupation and the communist tyranny, and how he eventually made his way from priest to bishop, archbishop, cardinal and now here.
COOPER: And a man who literally prayed under the boots of Nazis. A man who hiding from Nazis in his own home, as they were searching his house, sought refuge in his basement, face-down on the ground, his arms outstretched in the sign of the cross. You've been in that spot.
ALLEN: I have. And I think another point to make is that the young Karol Wojtyla, as a young seminarian, certainly did not have the standard experience of someone studying in a seminary. He was actually -- essentially it was a seminary in hiding at the archbishop's residence in Krakow for four years, because of the threat of Nazi occupation.
AMANPOUR: I love the story of his childhood friend, who happened to be Jewish, tells about how they would play together, how really there was no difference amongst them during their childhood. And one moment when he had come to find the young Karol Wojtyla in church to tell him of the certain success he had had, and he recounts how one of the church women looked at him and asked, "How could a Jew be in church or approach us? " And Karol Wojtyla turning and saying, "Surely we are all the children of one God."
And it was that childhood friend, according to the stories that we read and overhear from him, who helped and was the bridge to the Jewish community during the pope's reign.
ALLEN: That friend is, of course, Jerzy Kluger. And it's interesting to note that one branch of Kluger's children converted to Roman Catholicism, and the pope had actually baptized personally all of those grandchildren. And lovely moments, you know, the pope, of course, is a majestic public figure. And you think of him as awe and splendor. But Karol Wojtyla was also very much a man.
And they tell the story of how when Kluger would bring his grandchildren, the children would scamper into his life and take off his skullcap (UNINTELLIGIBLE) loved that human content.
COOPER: Jonathan Mann of CNN International is standing by watching all of this. Jonathan, your thoughts.
MANN: I'm really struck by what we're watching right now. You know, it is part of the mass, and we saw it earlier, the Sign of the Peace, the moment when the congregants turn to each other and shake hands and embrace and express their openness and their love for each other. We're seeing that now. We're seeing heads of state and ordinary men and women really experiencing this ceremony all together. It really resonates with this man's impact around the world. And it really strikes me what we have just witnessed. The word "basilica" is actually drawn from an ancient Greek word. It means "majesty." We have seen the majesty of this church, but also the warmth and human emotion in the streets, the signs, the flags, the chanting, the boisterous calls for John Paul to be sainted. It's really been a mix of all that the ancient church has taught and offered, and everything that the men and women who make up the church, the millions of people who flooded into the streets of this city, are hoping for. It's been a real mix of what the church is and what the followers of the church bring to an experience like this as well.
COOPER: John Allen, we're seeing people, dignitaries going somewhere. They're not going into the basilica to witness the continuation of this ceremony, because the ceremony is still continuing.
ALLEN: That's right. And it's a private ceremony restricted to a very few of the cardinals and a very few senior church officials. But, you know, I'm struck seeing these dignitaries. It's not just, you know, the universality of John Paul's appeal, but it's also a window into the very real political course that the Vatican carries and the papacy carries. I mean, it is the most important voice of conscious, the most important religious voice in global affairs. And this representation of government officials in the very highest levels is indicative of the remarkable political capacity that any pope has to mobilize opinion.
GALLAGHER: And a lot of people don't realize that these heads of state have come to visit the pope every day throughout the year, every year. The pope kept up a schedule. He's met all of these people personally, and sometimes many times personally. Every morning he had meetings with heads of state, and not to mention within his own church, his bishops and his priests. So, he was a man who has met all of these people personally.
COOPER: Prime Minister Tony Blair. The process now that is going on, the pope's casket being placed in another casket, how long does that last for?
GALLAGHER: Well, that should take probably another 45 minutes or so to do the actual burial, because then they've got to cover it with the concrete cover and put the pope's name on it and so on. So, they have a bit of more ceremony to do.
COOPER: And why place it in a lead casket -- John.
ALLEN: Well, the idea essentially is to protect the body from decomposition and make sure that it remains intact.
On the subject of the burial, we should note that we got some news. Of course, we remember that in the days immediately after the pope's death, there was conversation about would he be buried in Poland or would he be buried in Rome. We know now from having read his will that in the early stages of his pontificate, he did reflect to some extent on the idea of burial in Poland. But in the end, he left that decision in the hands of his College of Cardinals, who opted to have him buried here as 148 other popes are in the grotto beneath St. Peter's Basilica.
And this is physical proximity to the very first pope, St. Peter. Remember, the belief is that the bones of St. Peter himself are located directly beneath the main alter of St. Peter's Basilica.
AMANPOUR: And, John, isn't one reason for the multiple caskets to preserve the body also in the lead-up to a potential beatification?
ALLEN: Yes, quite right. And one of the traditional signs of saintity, according to Catholic belief, is the miraculous preservation of the body. Of course, the very first thing in a process for sainthood is the so-called Decree of Heroic Virtue. That is establishing that someone lived a saintly life.
And although normally that's an exhaustive process that requires interviews and testimonies and collecting documents and so forth, if you ever needed proof that someone had lived a saintly life, had impact on others, I think the massive turnout at this event this morning and those spontaneous outbursts of affection and admiration and love, I think in the view of a lot of Catholics, that pretty much sealed the deal.
COOPER: And CNN's Bill Hemmer has been in the crowd, hearing those outbursts during that love for Pope John Paul II.
Bill, where are you now? What are you seeing? Bill Hemmer, where are you now and what are you seeing?
HEMMER: Hey, Anderson. We are down here with -- actually with a gentleman, who we ran into two days ago. He's from Poland, and he's with me now.
And give our viewers at home a sense of what you're feeling at this moment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. As I told you, Bill, you know, I'm just going through a storm of emotions. I don't know the words to describe, you know, how I was feeling during the ceremony, during the funeral of our beloved pope, John Paul II. Some people already call him "the Great." And there are, I suppose, you know, the exact words, the right words to describe the person who brought in our lives so much, just one single person did so much for so many.
HEMMER: Thank you. Thank you...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're welcome.
HEMMER: ... for sharing with us again today.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're welcome.
HEMMER: I think for Catholics around the world, they may be a bit surprised mostly with the amount of applause we heard during this ceremony. It is I guess in 40 years I have not heard that much appreciation shown publicly at a Catholic ceremony. And for the past two-and-a-half hours, as this crowd starts to wind its way out, there are still thousands upon thousands who will linger here in St. Peter's Square. And so much emotion over the past several hours.
It's been extraordinary, too, to stand down here and to see the signs and the flags that represent so many people around the world, whether it's Poland or Italy or Brazil or the United States or Slovenia or you name it, boy, they have turned out with extraordinary numbers today. And as I speak to you, I see a few bishops winding their way through our crowd as well. And this will likely continue for many hours today.
And being in St. Peter's last night, shuffling through the center nave of that giant church, there were I would say a rough estimate 3,000 people inside that church at any single time. And these people have waited hours, sometimes 12 to 14 hours in line to pay their final respects to the body of Pope John Paul II. And they were only given a few precious seconds in front of his body for the past four days.
And it strikes me that this story is rather simple. This story is a story of a person who made a difference. And it's the story of someone who was given power, and when they used that power in the right way, how much an impact they can have on men and women around this world.
And it has been one heck of a week here at the Vatican. Anderson.
COOPER: And while it is a story of death and of loss, it's also a story of hope and of life and of celebration.
CNN's Soledad O'Brien joining us from New York.
Soledad, you've been watching this remarkable service. Your thoughts?
SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Anderson, you're absolutely right. And of course, we're looking at live pictures of the Vatican. And as you've mentioned, the hundreds of thousands of pilgrims in and around St. Peter's Square. It was a funeral mass that lasted just about two- and-a-half hours.
The Rites of Commendation completed and eventually, the body of Pope John Paul II will be lowered, placed into a third casket, then lowered into that burial niche in the grotto below St. Peter's Basilica. That, of course, a private ceremony. We will not be seeing pictures of that ceremony.
It was a remarkable and very beautiful mass. It was led by the pope's close friend and adviser, the German cardinal, Joseph Ratzinger. The pope's life was remembered, his legacy recalled. And those attending, the 100,000 or so who were able to make it within the walls of St. Peter's Square, and of course, the millions who watched around the globe, all reminded of the impact and the import of this man.
And it was a ceremony truly filled with many remarkable moments, heavy on tradition, of course, and some funereal pomp and circumstance, but also at the same time, underscoring the simplicity of the man being remembered, a man whose final will indicated that he wanted to be buried in the ground, but truly, otherwise, left it up to the cardinals to decide how it would go.
Pope John Paul II, through the readings and the homily and the chants of "santo" or "saint," was a man who is remembered, as Bill just said, who changed the world with his compassion and his vision -- Anderson.
COOPER: We, of course, have correspondents all over the world. Chris Burns is in Krakow. We're also monitoring this with Archbishop Wilton Gregory as well as Vatican analyst Delia Gallagher here in Vatican City, as well as John Allen, author of the book "Conclave" and reporter for The National Catholic Reporter. I'm also with Christiane Amanpour, CNN's chief international correspondent.
For our viewers who are just joining us now at the top of the hour, let's talk a little bit about what is happening right now inside St. Peter's Basilica. John.
ALLEN: Well, what is happening is the casket has been carried down to -- within the basilica and carried down to its final resting place, where, of course, it is being placed in a coffin of metal and then another coffin of oak. So there will be three coffins eventually. And then it will be lowered into the earth.
And the pope indicated, like his predecessor, Paul VI, he wanted simply a stone tablet marking that spot. Again, it's the spot once occupied by the body of Pope John XXIII.
COOPER: He marked down though that he wanted to be in the ground, not in a tomb.
ALLEN: That's correct, as a sign of simplicity. Again, most of those 148 popes in St. Peter's Basilica are in a sarcophagus. And in the ancient world, that was a sign of nobility, of wealth, of importance. John Paul, again, as Paul VI, insisting -- wanting to accent the humility and the notion of service at the root of the Petrine office.
GALLGHER: We should say now begins officially the nine days of mourning, the novem dialis. So for all of these millions of pilgrims who have come to Rome, they will still have time to participate in masses of sufferage for the pope. And they'll be doing that, surely, all throughout the week, during these nine days. And then afterwards, they'll be able to visit his tomb down in the crypt.
AMANPOUR: And you know what? Right now, we're seeing something that we haven't seen all week. We're seeing people move away from Vatican Square. Now it is over. They've said good-bye. That incredibly emotional moment when the Papal Gentlemen held the coffin of John Paul II aloft on their shoulders, walked up to the top of the stairs before entering St. Peter's Basilica to lay him in the ground. And they turned the coffin around in one last moment of salute for the people. And did they respond with enormous applause, with great acclamation. And now this place which saw, we're told, four million people converge on this small part of Rome in the last week, two million, we're told, managed to get into St. Peter's Basilica after lining up for anywhere between 10 to 12 hours and longer, just for a few seconds around his body as it lay in state. Now you can see them walking away here over the pedestrian bridge, leaving the Vatican state area, and going to the other side of the Tiber River.
COOPER: We have extensive coverage continuing this morning. I know many viewers in the United States, at least, are joining us for the first time now at the top of the hour.
We're going to be replaying large portions of the service. Some of the most remarkable moments, as Christiane was just talking, when the casket was turned, the crowd roaring their approval, roaring their love, wanting to make sure that the last thing John Paul II heard as he was taken into St. Peter's Basilica, was the sounds of love from the people he loved.
Our coverage continues for the next several hours here live on CNN. We'll be back in a moment.
COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the funeral of Pope John Paul II. It is just about 10 minutes past 1:00 in the afternoon here in Vatican City. The funeral mass is over, but right now there is still an element of this service which is going on away from the cameras, inside that building you're looking at there, St. Peter's Basilica, while hundreds of thousands of people still mill about outside in St. Peter's Square and in the surrounding streets.
Inside St. Peters Basilica, Pope John Paul II is finally being laid to rest underneath St. Peter's Basilica in the grotto, in the earth, as he specifically had asked in his last will and testament. It has been an extraordinary moment.
AMANPOUR: Staggering really, the reaction of the crowd, the number of times the crowd applauded. The homily by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who summed up the pope's life simply, yet profoundly, as somebody who had a lived under tyranny all his life, under the Nazi occupation of his native Poland, under communist tyranny, how he'd lived by a simple motto, that of fidelity to the church and that of living without fear.
His lifetime motto was "do not be afraid." He lived that. He tried to inspire Catholics not to be afraid to practice their faith. He inspired the people of Poland, the Solidarity leaders, the people who ultimately helped bring down communism. He's told that message to dictators and tyrants alike all over the world. And as I say, he lived by it himself.
Many of the people we spoke to amongst those throngs of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, who have come here, said very simply, that this was the man that they grew up with. This was the pope of their lifetime. That he'd done so much for them and they were coming now to say thank you as much as to say good-bye. And certainly, that was evident today.
COOPER: The funeral Mass concluded just a short time ago. If you missed it, we're going to be replaying large portions of it over the next several hours right here live on CNN.
But there were several moments which were extraordinary -- I don't want to overuse the word -- but which sent chills through the crowd, through anyone who was watching. This, the moment when the casket was being taken back into St. Peter's Basilica and shown to the crowd, the crowd that had loved this man and stood so long to see him. They showed Pope John Paul II one last time to the crowd.
Delia, for you, this was one of the most extraordinary moments.
GALLAGHER: Absolutely, yes, because it was the last moment, the last good-bye of the crowd. And I think that you felt that from the applause. And you just felt it in general from the spirit of this whole encounter.
But as I say, they will have a chance to see his tomb again.
COOPER: John Allen, I mean, appropriate the response of the crowd in death, similar to the response of his crowds in life, really.
ALLEN: Yes, Anderson. That's absolutely right. John Paul was in many ways a magnet for humanity. When he was in Mexico in 1979, there were an estimated 10 million that turned out over the course of that trip. In Manila, four million.
Delia and I both covered the pope's, what turned out to be, his final trip to Poland in 2002, when some two million people came to the mass. We estimate that more people saw John Paul in the flesh than have seen any other single human being in the history of the planet.
And John Paul, in so many ways, despite his traditional stance on some doctrinal issues, was not a traditionalist. The model used to be that the pope was in Rome and the crowds came to him. John Paul took his act on the road, so to speak, and made connections with humanity everywhere.
And so this crowd gathering here today is such a symbolically appropriate sendoff. And even in those moments when -- although applause during a Mass is somewhat non-traditional, that just spontaneous eruption into applause was such an appropriate way to capture the special magic, the special connection that John Paul had with so many people in all parts of the world.
AMANPOUR: And so much of what he did and what he is about is unprecedented. So perhaps that unique reaction at a funeral Mass is totally appropriate. Of course, we saw in the dignitaries that came here, the 200 or so heads of state, heads of government, religious leaders, we saw perhaps one of the mainstays of his papacy right there. We're looking right now at a live picture of the papal apartments, just one window is still shuttered. COOPER: What's the meaning of that?
ALLEN: Well, that indicates that the pope is not there. And of course, that window will remain shuttered until there is a new pope. The conclave to elect a new pope begins on April 18, as we know.
The symbolism is the window open means the pope is in. When the lights are on, it means the pope is active.
GALLAGHER: And those are his apartments, of course, from where he used to give his addresses to the crowds. And we've seen many millions of people come through the Vatican when the pope was alive. And I think Cardinal Ratzinger put that image very nicely, that now he's looking out of the window of his father's house.
ALLEN: We can note as well, those are, of course, the rooms in which the pope spent the last few moments of his life and the rooms in which he died. And the papal apartments are quite large. There's a library. There's a bedroom. There are meeting rooms. But probably the most important room in that complex to John Paul II was his private chapel, where, we're told, he spent long hours in prayer every night, and in some cases, when he was younger, of course, and more mobile, stretched out in the sign of the cross on the floor of the chapel.
AMANPOUR: We have seen so many come from all over the world. But perhaps nowhere feels it more desperately than in Poland. And we're going now to Poland and Chris Burns, who has been watching the observance there. Chris.
BURNS: Christiane, very emotional moment of course here. The crowds are beginning to thin but really still we have tens of thousands remaining here watching the ceremony.
And what you might notice in the crowd, you see not only Vatican flags, you see Polish flags, because the Poles see this man not only as their spiritual leader, but as their national liberator, the man who led them out of communism to democracy and freedom.
And the whole history of Poland is very much intertwined between nationalism and really. They see the man in many facets and that is why it so is emotional for all ages, for the young and the old. I would say easily half this crowd wasn't even born when the pope first came here as pope in 1979 and urged and suggested that the country free itself from communism.
And they are also appreciative as they see the man as a man of tolerance, of love, of compassion, and that's essentially what they've been telling us. They really identify with him on that level, even though most of the country doesn't practice everything what the pope even preached, on birth control, for instance. But they still love him very much as a spiritual leader and as a national liberator -- Christiane.
COOPER: Delia Gallagher was with the pope on one of his last trips to Poland.
GALLAGHER: Yes, the last trip to Poland, 2002. And one of the things that really stood out -- and I've been thinking about it since in these days -- was when we were on the plane and we had left, we had taken off, the pilot circled back around over the country and the pope was looking out the window on the left-hand side where he was sitting. And we were all thinking the same thing, will this be the last trip? I'm sure he was thinking it too. And as it turns out, it was. But the pilot gave him one last about seven, eight minutes to go back around his country.
ALLEN: Of course, Poland is not the only place where people are mourning today. I recall when the pope was in Mexico for the last time in 2001, and a similar story about the papal plane. One of the things that Mexicans do when the pope leaves town, as they give him a spectacular sendoff, they go out on their rooftops with mirrors and they catch the sun in order to send these bursts of light.
The pilot took us around Mexico City four times and it looked like -- it was literally a thousand points of light. It was the most remarkable sight. And of course, it was only for the pope because the air space was closed. So the pope was the only one who could see this, and those of us who were privileged, of course, to be with his plane. That is the kind of devotion that surrounded this man in life and now in death.
AMANPOUR: We've talked about him for the last few minutes as an international figure of great renown. But we' now need to talk also, as you've just mentioned, his spirituality, the Catholic faith. We've seen this immense turnout. We know that he followed a very traditionalist line of the Catholic doctrine for 26 years. It was very rigorous. It turned quite a few people away from the Catholic faith. There are many people in the Western Catholic Church who dwindled away. But this week has shown, is it, do you think, a rebirth, or do you think it's just a good-bye for a beloved man?
ALLEN: Well, I think that's a very difficult question to answer. I mean, I and some colleagues were wondering out loud yesterday if you were to just ask a random sample of 100 people in these vast crowds that are turned out how many of them plan to be at church next Sunday, what would the answer be? And it's hard to say.
But I think obviously what this does demonstrate is that whatever problems people may have with particular doctrinal teaches or with institutional religion, when they see a man of integrity, a man in whom they can see the divine presence, they will and do respond to it.
COOPER: Authenticity is the word many young people use about this pope. And as you see, just some young people there. We've seen these kind of celebrations on the streets really all throughout this last week. Yes, it's been a week of mourning, but there is such joy on the streets among the people, especially the young people who have come. CNN's Rome bureau chief, Alessio Vinci, is down with the crowds.
The enthusiasm does not seem to be diminishing at all -- Alessio. VINCI: Anderson, really, we saw few tears here today, at least in this area where I am. Perhaps because I think this funeral is more a celebration of the pope's life, rather than a mourning. Of course, the funeral was an opportunity for everybody who has been here on this historical day to say a final good-bye. And as we pointed out that moment in which the coffin was turned around for a final last good- bye.
We saw that happening also earlier this week when the pope's body was moved from the Apostolic Palace into the basilica before the public viewing began. But certainly this was obviously the final last day and final last opportunity for the people to say a last good-bye, and perhaps for the pope himself to say a last good-bye.
And also interesting to note, Anderson, is that the area underneath the basilica, the grotto where the actual coffin is now being placed, it is an area which usually is open to the public. There are, of course, other previous popes there buried. And we do know of course that this area is now closed to the public. It will remain closed throughout the weekend, we understand. And the Vatican is telling us that they'll make a decision on Monday when to reopen it.
But certainly, they're going to want to try to make sure that the people here will leave to avoid the kind of lines we've seen in the last few days or so -- Anderson.
COOPER: In a moment, we're going to take you -- not visually, but we're going to talk about what is happening inside St. Peter's Basilica with the pope right now. We're also going to be replaying some important moments from the funeral Mass that occurred these last several hours. But standing by in New York is Soledad O'Brien with Archbishop Wilton Gregory -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Anderson, you know, we've been talking about how remarkable it is to watch this on television. And certainly, with even when you hear the music of the Sistine Chapel Choir, when you hear the bells toll, even when you heard the applause, it was so moving over our television sets, one can only imagine how it sounds to all of you who are really up close and are seeing this from your vantage points.
You talked about remarkable moments just a moment ago. And I thought one of them was, in fact, the repeat of "follow me, follow me" in the homily that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger gave. Give me a sense, Archbishop Gregory, about the significance of that line. It's from Jesus' words to Peter before the crucifixion.
GREGORY: To Peter before the crucifixion. And it's part of the commissioning of Peter to be, to be the head of the church and to strengthen his brothers.
O'BRIEN: Why is it appropriate to repeat that again and again as the cardinal did in his homily in the context of John Paul II's life? GREGORY: Probably for two reasons. One is to show the contemporary expression of the fulfillment of that demand by the Lord to Peter in the life of John Paul II. So it is a homiletic theme and homiletic approach to take the words of Scripture and to apply them to a contemporary situation so that people see that the words of Scripture are not merely intended in an historical context, but are lived every day in our own lives and in a special way in the life of this wonderful pastor.
O'BRIEN: Truly, very appropriate I thought in this particular way when you consider all his missions around the globe and how many languages he spoke and how many trips he took in order to get the flock to "follow me" in a very literal sense.
GREGORY: To make sure that it's clear -- as Cardinal Ratzinger was weaving the steam (ph) through Pope John Paul II's life, to make it clear that the office and the function of Peter, that function which he received from Christ is still being lived out today. And it's also a good prelude to begin to anticipate what the cardinals must now be considering in preparation for the conclave.
That somehow, they must look at the needs of the church and at the qualities of the man that will eventually become the Holy Father so that he too, in his own style, with his own gifts, his own background, his own history, takes up the task of being Peter for the church.
O'BRIEN: We're going to talk much more about that just ahead. We've got to take a short break. We want to ask our international viewers to please -- we're going to say good-bye to you this morning. You're going to have your coverage from Jonathan Mann just ahead. A short break, we're back in just a moment with much more.
COOPER: And the remarkable day that has been continues here in Vatican City. It is 1:25 in the afternoon here in Vatican City. It is about 7:25 on the East Coast of the United States. Our coverage continues with CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour.
I'm Anderson Cooper. Thanks for joining us. Also here with CNN Vatican analyst John Allen.
It has been -- I don't think anyone really -- I mean, we expected large crowds. We knew there were some four million people who had come to Rome for this. We knew there had been some two million who got to see the pope in the last several days. But what surprised you from this morning?
ALLEN: Well, I think there's the emotional register of the event. I've been in a lot of papal masses over the years, and some of them have been deeply moving, but I think the realization that this was the last time simply put all of us on a different emotional plane. I think in addition, the fact that there's a certain sense in which the crowd took control of this Liturgy. COOPER: Absolutely.
ALLEN: I mean, in the beginning, the tone was reverent, very sober. And of course, that did continue to some extent throughout. But the crowd refused to just be observers. They wanted to be participants in those chants of "santo subito," "saint immediately," and those chants of "Giovanni Paulo," which we've become so accustomed to over the years, especially at the Youth Day gathers. And there were a large number of youth, of course, at this event, reflecting the special connection John Paul II had with youth.
I think it's that, it's the emotional richness and depth of the experience that struck me.
AMANPOUR: And of course, beyond the emotion there is the doctrine, there is the church, there are the teachings. We heard this incredibly beautiful Litany of the Saints that was sung out. And John Paul II has made the most saints of, I think, all his predecessors combined.
Some of them very controversial, I note that we saw the flag of Croatia, for instance. He elevated a Croatian to sainthood at a time when the Croatian fascists were almost aligned with the Catholic Church and had had these terrible pogroms against the Serbs during World War II.
These are controversial things that he's done in the past.
ALLEN: Yes. That's right. I mean, the Catholic Church takes the position, of course, that making someone a saint or recognizing the sainthood that was already there actually, is not necessarily an endorsement of everything this person did during his or her life. But nevertheless, some of these choices, you're quite right, have generated controversy. Cardinal Stepinac, the Croatian you referred to, many people believe was unacceptably close to the Ustashi, a paramilitary group in Croatia aligned with the Nazis.
One thinks also of Josemaria Escriva, the founder of the Catholic group Opus Dei, many people would see it as quite controversial, particularly on the grounds of Escriva's relationship with the Franco regime in Spain.
One thinks of Edith Stein, this is a Jewish woman who converted Catholicism, became a Carmelite nun and eventually died in Auschwitz. And some Jewish critics felt that the pope was, in effect, manipulating or taking advantage of her suffering, which, after all, was not because she was Catholic, but because she was Jewish. And that caused controversy.
The beatification of Pius IX, the 19th Century pope who in effect kidnapped a Jewish child, refused to return him to his family, raised him in the Vatican, went and generated a storm of protests. Now bear in mind, I've now just ticked off four names in a run of 476 saints and more than 1,300 beatifications. So we're talking about exceptions rather than the rule. Perhaps when you canonize and beatify that often, some of them are bound to be controversial. But nevertheless, you're quite right. Some of these made some waves.
AMANPOUR: And what does the Catholic Church do in the future? Here's this unique pope who, more than any other, reached out for religious reconciliation. He did what he had to do. He apologized to the Jews for what the Catholic Church did not do to stop the Holocaust. He's the first to go into a synagogue.
And yet, under his watch, under our watch, another genocide took place in Rwanda in the '90s, the Catholic Church heavily implicated. Priests and nuns, some have been convicted for their role in facilitating or allowing the slaughter in the Catholic churches. I mean, these kind of contradictions, clearly, the church is going to have to grapple with, isn't it, as it goes forward?
ALLEN: Well, you're right. And it's not just the fact that priests and nuns were in some way implicated, it's also the fact that the vast majority of those carrying out the killing were baptized Catholics.
Ironically, there was a synod -- that is, a gathering of African bishops -- here in Rome just as that genocide broke out. And I remember having long, long conversations with many of these African bishops who really were at a loss to explain, how can it happen that people who had been baptized, who had been brought up as Catholic, exposed to Catholic teaching and to the spiritual and moral formation of the Catholic Church, how is it possible that they could be involved in such things?
Now, we should note to that, there were also stories of heroism. I recall the story of one seminary, where a number of soldiers came into the seminary and demanded that the seminarians divide into Hutu and Tutsi, and they actually refused. And the vast majority of them ended up being killed because of that refusal.
So, it's not just a store of criminality or of cowardice. There also are stories of heroism.
But nevertheless, you're right. The point is that whatever those people were being taught about the Catholic faith was not adequate to stop that genocide from happening. It raises some hard questions about how the church approaches these sorts of things.
COOPER: In his homily, Cardinal Ratzinger spoke of some contradictions. He actually even used that word. And we've talked a little bit about contradictions in Catholic teachings. And yet for people of faith and for Pope John Paul II, contradictions can -- there can be contradictions. There can be -- and it's not necessarily opposing thoughts. They can be -- I mean, faith is multilayered.
ALLEN: Yes. That's right. A sign of contradiction, which is the phrase that Cardinal Ratzinger used, is actually the title of a book John Paul published, collecting sermons he had preached during a retreat for Pope Paul VI. But, you know, I think one of the things about John Paul II that has to be remembered is this was not a pope of either/or. This was a pope of both/and. That is, he believed you could both have a rock- solid Catholic identity and be open to others.
He believed you could both be a pope of reform in a certain sense, in terms of the style or exercise of the papacy, and be a pope who absolutely drew the line on some sort of -- on many of the doctrinal changes that some Catholics wanted, such as changes on the teaching on birth control, homosexuality, women's ordination and so forth.
I mean, this was a pope who had unlimited ambition and believed you could have it all.
COOPER: And even if people who disagreed with him, and there were probably many in the crowd today who disagreed with him on particular issues, and yet we saw that outpouring of affection. Bill Hemmer was there witnessing it firsthand. The people around him chanting out John Paul's name, saying "saint immediately."
Bill, it must have been extraordinary to actually be there in the middle of it.
HEMMER: Oh, it certainly was, Anderson. And I can tell you, this crowd doesn't appear to be in much of a hurry. There are still tens of thousands of people down here.
I thought it was also quite interesting a short time ago, when we can see people get up and walk away, they go away slowly. Many are without words. But at the same time, that main road that leads into St. Peter's Square is still filled with thousands of pilgrims. And they are now working their way into St. Peter's Square.
There are nuns to my right from India, and there are Franciscans and bishops working through the crowd among the pilgrims. Many in front of me now are sitting down having picnics with their sandwiches and their apples and their water.
Keep in mind, many of these people slept out last night, and a lot of them actually slept out the night before as well. They've brought their backpacks and their sleeping bags and their rollaway mats. Many earlier today were breaking down cardboard boxes and using that cardboard as a mat to lie on to separate their bodies from the cobblestone pavement down here. Now, they're taking those backpacks, picking them up and carrying them away with them.
And some final pictures are also being taken down here. Just about everybody seems to have a camera, be it a digital camera or a video camera. And they are capturing the moment and capturing the memory.
And I think the other thing that's very telling, Anderson, the signs down here say so much about the devotion that people have brought to St. Peter's today. The town of Krakow in southern Poland, where this pope became an archbishop in 1964. The sign, Wadowice, which is his hometown where he was born in southern Poland as well.
And there are local newspapers. You know, here in Italy, boy, there seems like there's a newspaper on every street corner. "Il Messaggero" is one of the main publications here, and they're passing out free newspapers. And on the inside of it, there's a beautiful picture of the pope. And I'll get to this a bit later and show it to you. But there's a giant rainbow color in the background, and his face is shining in the sun. And in Italian it translates into English the following way. The headline says, "Be not afraid, John Paul II."
And if we reflect again on the crowd here and the applause that has gone throughout this ceremony and the chants of "santo, santo," meaning saint, are quite revealing and the amount of affection that these people have for this man.
COOPER: And it is important to know for all of the crowds outside the basilica, right now there is activity inside that basilica, very intimate, a very small grouping of cardinals around the coffin of John Paul II. What's happening right now inside the basilica -- Delia.
GALLAGHER: Well, it's the burial, and it should be just about finishing probably, because, as you say, it's a small group of cardinals. They have to say a few prayers. They have to wrap the coffin with a ribbon, put it inside the other coffin, and then bury it.
COOPER: The coffin that we saw, it was a wooden coffin, cypress.
COOPER: It's being placed in another one.
AMANPOUR: Into a zinc coffin, then into an oak coffin, all designed, John, to -- well, to protect the body.
ALLEN: Quite right.
AMANPOUR: For future faithful to come and see and also in terms of the Doctrine of Beatification and sainthood.
ALLEN: And we should note that the particular spot where the pope is being buried underneath the basilica, once occupied by Pope John XXII, is, so to speak, a prime piece of real estate. It's one of the most accessible spots. And, of course, John XXIII, that spot was a focus of enormous popular devotion, and we fully expect the same thing for John Paul II.
COOPER: We're seeing video of what happened just a short time ago, where that is the coffin that we're talking about. It's made out of cypress wood. That coffin has now been placed inside another coffin, which will be placed inside a third coffin, before it is placed in the ground, something John Paul II specifically demanded really. He wanted to be in the ground, in the earth. ALLEN: As did his predecessor, Paul VI. And, again, this was a break from custom, in which popes are put in ornate funeral boxes called a sarcophagus. The idea here is to underline the humility, the simplicity, and the service that is supposed to be at the core of the job of being pope, which we heard in the gospel reading today.
COOPER: Is he wearing the same vestments that he wore when he was lying in viewing?
GALLAGHER: Yes, yes, the red and white vestments with his bishop's miter, of course, to buried with him as well. That's a sign of him being a bishop. And regarding that...
COOPER: Is that staff buried with him, the staff which he saw him laying with?
GALLAGHER: The staff is not buried with him for reasons probably just of space.
COOPER: What other objects are inside?
GALLAGHER: But also inside are the medals minted in his pontificate and the rogito, which is the reading of his life, a summary of some of the main points of his life. And if you want to look at the simplicity of this pope, just look at his name. He took his name from his predecessors, John XXIII, Paul VI and John Paul I. He just said, "What's my name going to be? John Paul II."
ALLEN: That actually is the second moment when a new pope is elected, two things happen. Once that pope has achieved the vote, the Dean of the College approaches and say, "Do you accept your election?" You can actually say no, and it has happened historically, although the pope in his 1996 document on this urged the man who was elected to have the courage to pick up the burden.
So, the first question is, "Do you accept? And the second question is, "By what name will you be known?" It is really, in effect, the first decision a pope gets to make. And it has historically been significant, because what name he takes may give you some indication of where he wants to go.
AMANPOUR: We've been talking a lot about the simplicity of this pope. And I'm not sure. Maybe it's his influence, but all of the police, the National Guard, the Civil Protection, the Civil Guards have been so simple in the way they've been dealing with the people, so friendly, so helpful. And I'm not sure. I'm going to make a very trivial observation right now. But maybe your viewers -- the American viewers will be interested. This is such a sophisticated country that they have even handed out free water still and sparkling.
COOPER: We'll be right back.
COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the funeral of Pope John Paul II. It is about 20 to 2:00 in the afternoon here in Rome, about 20 to 8:00 in the United States on the East Coast.
The service, the funeral mass is over. At this moment, right now, inside St. Peter's Basilica, Pope John Paul II's coffin, which has been placed in a second coffin, and those two coffins placed in a third coffin, has now likely been placed in the ground for its final resting place.
Earlier in the day, this morning started out for John Paul II. He had been laying in state underneath St. Peter's Basilica in full view. Some two million visitors had come to see him over the last week. His body was placed inside this wooden coffin, a very simple coffin, as well as a veil placed over his face.
AMANPOUR: That's right. There are two crucial parts of the funeral services that have not been open to the public today. One is, as you mentioned, in the hour before the funeral mass started, he was laid from his public viewing into the oak coffin. He was put inside with a very short, what we call the very shot CV that's encased in a metal tube with some commemorative coins that were minted during his papacy.
And now, we are doing to show you part of what we all saw, what the whole world saw, and that was the funeral mass. This is the beginning with Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger officiating, celebrating this mass.
COOPER: As this funeral mass begins, let's watch and listen.
COOPER: The cypress wood coffin of Pope John Paul II emerging from St. Peter's Basilica.
Archbishop Gregory, what part of this service are we seeing right now? What is happening?
GREGORY: Well, the placement of the body before the altar, and there will be a placement of the -- I believe the Book of the Gospels upon the casket to be followed by the celebrating cardinals.
AMANPOUR: It's absolutely amazing to listen from our vantage point up here at this incredible applause that has gone up. People all over that square are clapping and applauding Pope John Paul II as he makes his final journey. We've seen people raise their hands and wave. It is unusual in a funeral, but these are unusual times and this was an unusual man.
COOPER: John Allen, the placement of the book on the casket also done in previous funerals for the pope. ALLEN: Well, this is actually a special touch of Pope Paul VI. In previous papal funerals, is the pope, of course, in some sense is a monarch. It would be a very elaborate casket, very ornate. Paul VI decided that he wanted to make it as simple as humanly possible. So, rather than all of that ostentation, he wanted a simple wooden casket with just the gospels sitting on top. And John Paul I and then John Paul II followed through that.
It's worth noting, just a moment ago we caught a glimpse of the pope's private secretary, Stanislaw Dziwisz. The whole world, of course, is grieving for the loss of Pope John Paul II, but we have to imagine that Archbishop Dziwisz, his closest collaborator for 38 years, has got to be especially emotional today seeing all of this.
COOPER: A note to our viewers: We are going to limit our comments during the next several hours. Let's listen and watch.
COOPER: Just some of the extraordinary moments we have witnessed the over the last several hours. We're going to continue to bring you some of the moments from the funeral mass of Pope John Paul II. The crowd, at some points, really stopping the service, breaking out into applause and shouts of adulation.
AMANPOUR: And also, most notably, and perhaps we'll show it again, the homily by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.
COOPER: Very dramatic.
AMANPOUR: More than 10 times the crowd applauded at each time that the cardinal mentioned Pope John Paul II, his pain, his suffering, his fidelity, his life story. And at one point at the very end, the cardinal saying, remember that time on Easter Sunday when the pope tried to talk to us from his apartment? And he pointed up, and he said, "He's probably watching us now."
COOPER: A lot of people no doubt are feeling that very strongly. We'll be right back. Our coverage continues in a moment.
COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing live coverage of the funeral mass for Pope John Paul II. We heard a lot this morning of the pope's suffering, not just his suffering at John Paul II as an older man, but the suffering of Karol Wojtyla, as a young man. This was a man who had suffered through much of his life, particularly in his early years. John.
ALLEN: Yes. That's right. I mean, Karol Wojtyla, the young Karol Wojtyla lost his mother at a very young age, and then he lost his beloved older brother to scarlet fever in his teens. He lost his father when he was 21. And he said, he has written in his later years, he was actually as an orphan at that stage. This is a man who knew what suffering meant. GALLAGHER: And he wrote in his will, in fact, just yesterday that we read, he remembers especially that family that he never knew.
AMANPOUR: And it seems that his cardinals, his archbishops, particularly his long-time secretary, Archbishop Dziwisz, was as close as he had to a brother and to a son.
GALLAGHER: And what about the suffering of Archbishop Stanislaw as well that carried literally the pope at the end of his days? I mean, I think that's a man to reflect upon as well, the love that he had for the pope.
COOPER: There's a quote from John Paul in one of his books. He said by the age of 20, I had lost everyone I loved. It really drove him forward into his vocation. It really -- I mean, he really found his faith through that suffering.
ALLEN: Yes. And the redemptive value of suffering, the point that suffering is not meaningless. That actually the most important moments of the life of Christ, according to Christian faith, when he was mute hanging from a cross. And let's not forget, it wasn't just his family, I mean, Wojtyla also lived through the Nazi occupation in Poland, and he lived through the Soviet domination of Poland. I mean, this is a man who knew what it was like to carry the cross in his own life.
COOPER: We're going to talk a lot about more about this coming up. Also, we have CNN correspondents around the globe. We'll also be talking with Soledad O'Brien in New York, as well as many others. We'll be right back. Our coverage from Vatican City continues in a moment.
O'BRIEN: Welcome back to CNN's special coverage of the funeral of Pope John Paul II. He was known as the pope of the people. And today, the people have repaid that compliment and that commitment.
Alessio Vinci is our Rome bureau chief. He is down with some of those people, who have made a rather long journey to spend the final day with the pope today.
Alessio, good morning.
VINCI: And good morning to you, Soledad.
We have seen the rich and the powerful up in St. Peter's Basilica earlier today. But this funeral was first and foremost about ordinary people, the people that John Paul II loved so much and sought around the world. And they responded in masses today in Rome in coming here by the hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions. And among them are two -- actually Tony (ph) and Kendra (ph) from Kentucky in the U.S.
You just arrived this morning. Why did you decide to make the trip? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we admire Pope John Paul II as a holy man very much. We're Methodists from Kentucky, but we have done a lot of ecumenical and inter-religious work, and of course that's been a main focus of this pope for many, many years.
So we thought we should come and we have the time and the opportunity to pay our respects to a bright man and a great leader in the world.
VINCI: Kendra (ph), you were in the square, or near the square, during the ceremony.
Which part did you like the most?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought the communion was beautiful to watch, I mean just the number of people who were able to participate and just thinking of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) universal nature of that (UNINTELLIGIBLE). It was beautiful. It was all beautiful.
VINCI: Well, to non-Catholics, what was this pope -- what did this pope do right for you to, you know, to take the time to travel overseas? I mean this is your third trip to Rome.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
VINCI: You told me only once you came here to see the pope, so you're obviously not so much, you know, close to this man. You didn't feel so much close to him when he was alive.
But why making the trip now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the Roman Catholic Church has reached out a great deal, not only to Christians, but to other faiths around the world. And that's very important to us as, not as Catholics, but as religious and spiritual people. You know, it's interesting that you can be here -- and we don't understand Italian, so we didn't understand a great deal of it. But it's like...
VINCI: Of the Homily, you mean?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of the Homily, exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it's like opera. You know and you have that feeling that, that's there. It goes all the way through you so that you are a participant in a holy experience.
VINCI: Well, was it, for you, more a spiritual adventure or more a need to be here on a historical day?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's both. I mean for us it's been, it's been amazing. In fact, I've talked about it being divine province on the way of a trip in Holland together for the two or us. And I think as I stood during the service, I, you know, like why am I here and what -- how will this change me? VINCI: And how did you answer those questions?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm still working on that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I think that what it makes you realize, when you see people from all around the world who are here, all the Poles who here, people from Africa, people from Israel who are here, you really realize that it's one world and that we have a responsibility to share the space together around the world. And we have a responsibility to do that as religious people, just as we do as secular people.
VINCI: What about the next pope? What do you think the next pope should do? Will it be really hard for him to follow in the steps of this one? Obviously, yes, but what do you expect the next pope should do to make you feel the same way about the pope in general, as an institution, rather than Pope John Paul II?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think if the pope continues to work to strengthen the Roman Catholic Church and to make it a very visible chorus for faith in the world, that's very good, because it's the strongest faith that can reach out to others.
VINCI: Now, we've spoke about a great amount of security to reach Rome. It was completely -- it was very difficult. All flights were packed. Security around the city was very tight. Reaching St. Peter's Square and this position here has been a challenge for many people. You only arrived this morning and you made it all the way down to St. Peter's Square.
How do you do this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's because we came late. We have a new rule in our household. We're only now going to cities where the traffic is shut down, because it makes it very fast.
We had a car waiting for us at the airport. There was no other traffic on the road. So we made it into town in 13 minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And then we just walked, we walked right over, because we were a little bit behind everybody else.
VINCI: Did you feel security was a burden a little bit? I mean obviously this entire area was shut down.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. In fact, we commented on that. We've both been so impressed by all of it, I mean, and by the security and the sense of real hospitality, I think, from the Italian people who have come, I mean. And you can tell, who have come from all over the country, I believe, to make us all feel comfortable here.
VINCI: All right. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We appreciate that.
VINCI: All right, Kendra, Tony, thank you very much for joining us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
VINCI: And, Soledad, Tony and Kendra are just two of the many people who have come here to Rome on this very special day. Of course, the largest representation of people outside of Italy, the Poles. An estimated one million people from Poland traveled to Rome on this day.
Rome alone makes three million people, has three million inhabitants here. So imagine today, one in four people today in this city is a Pole -- back to you -- Soledad.
O'BRIEN: One can only imagine, Alessio.
Alessio Vinci reporting for us this morning, talking to that American couple, really mirroring, I think, the feelings of many people there and around the world who are paying attention today, to pay their last respects to Pope John Paul II.
The faithful, in fact, gathering in the Philippines and in Vietnam, across the United States, across the globe, to watch the service on television or to pray for Pope John Paul II. We're told that an overflow crowd of 7,000 worshipers filled Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris.
We're going to take a short break.
When we come back in just a moment, some of the spectacular pictures from the funeral of Pope John Paul II ahead.
Stay with us.
We're back in a moment.
COOPER: And welcome to our continuing live coverage of the funeral for Pope John Paul II.
Over the next two hours of our coverage, we're going to be taking you back to show you some of the more memorable, most dramatic moments, the most emotional moments from the last several hours of this funeral mass.
AMANPOUR: That's right. And you just saw the pictures in Vatican Square. It's almost little Poland down there now. All we can see are Polish flags and the Poles seem to have stayed there in a moment of communion.
We're going to show you now the first part of the mass, the funeral mass that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger presided over. (BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)
RATZINGER (through translator): Let us pray.
Dear God, Father and pastor of all humanity, God, the family assembled here in prayer, and grant unto your servants and our Pope John Paul, who has presided over your church in love, to (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the flock that has been entrusted to him, the reward that has been promised to the faithful ministers of the Gospel.
Through our Lord, Jesus Christ, thy son, our God, who lives and reigns with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit unto the ages of ages. Amen.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): This reading is taken from the Acts of the Apostles.
In those days, Peter addressed them. The truth, I have now come to realize, he said, is that God does not have favorites but that anybody of any nationality who fears God and does what is right is acceptable to him. It is true, God sent his word to the people of Israel. And it was to them that the good news of peace was brought by Jesus Christ.
But Jesus Christ is lord of all men. You must have heard about the recent happenings in Judea, about Jesus of Nazareth and how he began in Galilee, after John had been preaching baptism. God had anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and because God was with him, Jesus went about doing good and curing all who had fallen into the power of the devil.
Now I and those with me can witness to everything he did throughout the countryside of Judea and in Jerusalem itself, and also to the fact that they killed him by hanging him on a tree.
Yet, three days afterwards, God raised him to life and allowed him to be seen, not by the whole people but only by certain witnesses God had chosen beforehand.
Now we are those witnesses. We have eaten and drunk with him after his resurrection from the dead. And he has ordered us to proclaim this to his people. And to tell them that God has appointed him to judge everyone, living or dead.
It is to him that all the prophets bear this witness that all who believe in Jesus will have their sins forgiven through his name. This is the word of the Lord.
(RECITATION OF PSALM 23 IN LATIN)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A reading from the letter of Paul to the Philippians.
"As you well know, we have our citizenship in heaven. It is from there that we eagerly await the coming of our savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. He will give a new form to this lowly body of ours and remake it according to the pattern of his glorified body by his power to subject everything to himself.
For these reasons, my brothers, you, whom I so love and long for, you who are my joy and my crown, continue, my dear ones, to stand firm in the Lord.
(PRAYING IN LATIN)
(END VIDEO TAPE)
COOPER: That was some of the service from several hours ago.
Over the last several hours we have seen so many remarkable moments.
AMANPOUR: We have. And we've just heard, although we didn't actually see it on camera, we've just heard that the Israeli president, Moshe Katzav, and the Syrian president, Bashar Assad, actually shook hands here at this funeral, which is quite a big deal.
COOPER: That is amazing.
AMANPOUR: It is.
We also know that this is, perhaps, one of these things that maybe it's the spirit of John Paul. We've been talking so many times and so much about his international outreach and how he, you know, was the first to step into a synagogue, into a mosque, and how he's got a ministry that really goes all over the world now.
ALLEN: That's absolutely right. And one of the ways he's been able to pull that off, so to speak, of course, is his mastery of the media. You know, we were reflecting the other day that of all the things CNN has covered over the years -- wars, revolutions, earthquakes, tsunamis -- it has never covered the death of a pope and the election of a new one because, of course, CNN didn't exist in 1978.
CNN and the papacy of Pope John Paul II, in a sense, grew up together. And from the very beginning this pope has had a genius. I recall the first time Lech Walesa came to the Vatican. There was -- when Walesa was ushered in, he came to the pope and fell to his feet and kissed his ring in a sign of this kind of filial connection.
The photographer was changing a roll of film at that moment and didn't catch it. John Paul told him to do it again because he wanted that picture to end up on the front page of every newspaper in the world.
It's also extraordinary when you think, I mean we've been watching some of the television coverage from around the world this morning and we've seen it from everywhere -- South Korea, from Chile, Costa Rica, especially from Poland -- that CNN's audience on this, there's a potential audience of two billion people around the world, which is, I mean it's an extraordinary number when you think about it. GALLAGHER: Well, I think it also had a lot to do with just the pope's charisma. He was not necessarily someone who used the media as much as just emanated his own personal charisma that was then caught by the media. And I think that he was just a very personable person. And so that's how the journalists and the media began to follow him.
And it's interesting that in his will, in the very last paragraph, he remembers the media. He says, "I embraced the media, as well." AMANPOUR: Didn't he instigate the precise way that we are all seeing this today, Vatican Television?
AMANPOUR: Didn't he sort of instigate this sort of elaborate coverage of the papacy?
GALLAGHER: Yes. With the press, the press office and Vatican Television existed, but he certainly built them up in order to make them a means of communication that could operate on this worldwide scale.
COOPER: When we come back, we're going to be talking to Cardinal William Keeler, who was at the ceremony today. We'll be talking with him live here on CNN.
Our coverage continues in just a moment.
AMANPOUR: The millions of pilgrims who have come here over the last week have added a certain burden to the city, but it has been extremely good-natured and it has been coped with extremely well. These are people who have come to Rome from all over the world to say good-bye and thank you to the pope.
And just last night, even at midnight, as we were talking around Vatican Square just to take a pulse of the people, they were sleeping neatly in rows all along the big boulevard that comes here, all around the great colonnades that embrace the people inside the Square, sleeping in their sleeping bags. Some had covers. Some had metal sheeting on to protect them from the elements. Their shoes all neatly lined up by the pavement next to them.
It's been an incredibly good-natured crowd. And Bill Hemmer has been in that crowd for much of this week, talking to people, asking them why they were here and generally getting a pulse of the people who have come here to say good-bye to the pope -- Bill.
HEMMER: Christiane, thanks.
We have been watching now for the past 15 minutes or so, just off to my left, these barricades that have served as crowd control for the past week are now coming down. This is the area called Concillicione (ph). It's a small strip of pavement. It runs about a quarter to a half mile long, where we've seen the crowds by the thousands, again, funnel past for the past four and a half days.
That appears to be ending now, as we can observe here. And also back in St. Peter's Square, Christiane, a couple of things that are worth pointing out.
There are so many young people down here, and the youth have truly turned out to pay honor to Pope John Paul II.
And there appears to be this movement, too, in St. Peter's Square, among the Polish delegation, moving to the right of St. Peter's Square. The reason why that is somewhat significant is because if you look over my shoulder here, to the right would be the area toward the residence of Pope John Paul II. His bedroom is up four stories high, so that it's quite likely they're moving back over toward that area to be closer to the man they've come here to honor.
And I mentioned the young people, too, and there's a memorial that's been set up just several yards away from my location here. People are bringing candles and they're making their own handmade drawings as a tribute to Pope John Paul II. A number of children, too, making their own drawings, as well, and leaving them behind.
And across St. Peter's Square, late last night, when we were going into the basilica, there was a huge memorial set up there, too. Hundreds and hundreds of candles have been placed there in honor of Pope John Paul II.
There's this one sign in Italian, too, that stands out more so than all of the others. It says, "Graci!," "thank you," to Pope John Paul II.
A short time ago, also, there were about 20 people from Poland all with backpacks carrying around, turning in across the Square here. They posed for a final picture with a huge sign over the top that said, "Warsaw," capturing the moment and the memory and the history that that country has come to witness through the life of this man.
And every Pole you speak to, by the way, when you ask them what this man meant to them, they all pause before they start answering, almost as if to say I want you to hear me correctly and I want my words to ring true. Listen to what I'm saying here about what Pope John Paul II means to me as a Pole and as a human being. The barricades are coming down. St. Peter's Square does not appear to be -- well, most of the people down here don't appear to be in much of a hurry. A bit of a shared moment today at the Vatican -- Christiane.
AMANPOUR: Bill, you talk about the signs, "Graci," and I've seen -- and everybody has seen around Rome, also -- many, many posters that have been put up by the City of Rome saying that Rome, Italy is crying and mourning its pope. Many are saying, you know, good-bye to the pope, thank you to the Holy Father. And, of course, last night and all this week, seeing all these people who have not been able to find hostels or hotels and have set up makeshift tent cities on any piece of park land or available land around this city and, of course, outside the city.
It's remarkable, isn't it, just what the people have put up with, living in the open air for the last week or so?
HEMMER: Oh, so true. You know, and when you ask them that, you ask them about sleeping out for the past -- a lot of these people have slept out for two nights in a row and they bring their sleeping bags and rollaway mats and some of them even have cardboard, as I mentioned a bit earlier today.
And you ask them whether or not that bothers them and to a person they say no, that they have come here for a reason and their dedication and devotion is quite evident, too, when you speak with them.
We want to get back to New York City right now and talk with Soledad, as well.
Soledad, good morning. Back to you in New York.
O'BRIEN: And good morning to you, Bill, as well.
You know, just moments ago, we heard from Christiane. She was telling us that there were reports that, in fact, the president of Syria and the Israeli president shook hands. And my next guest, the Archbishop Gregory Wilton -- Wilton Gregory, forgive me -- said with a chuckle, well, that would be Pope John Paul II's first miracle. And, of course, you were being a little bit facetious. But at the same time, you were really referring to what we have seen in the crowds, which is a movement -- santo, santo -- potentially to have Pope John Paul II made a saint.
Tell me a little bit about what the process would entail.
GREGORY: Well, the process now, from the perspective of the Holy See, is largely an investigative process and it's an examination of the writings. It's an examination of the biography of the individual. But it also must include some verification that there has been a spontaneous acclimation and a spontaneous recognition of the holiness of the individual's life.
And I think that what we saw today in the funeral liturgy is a clear example of the extraordinary confidence and trust that people have, that this man truly lived a virtuous, heroically virtuous life, which is the standard for a Canonization process.
O'BRIEN: We are getting word now that, in fact, Pope John Paul II has been buried. He's been buried in the grotto beneath the basilica.
Let's take a look, if we can. We have a graphic that shows exactly how that happens. As you can see there, this is going into St. Peter's Basilica. And, of course, Pope John Paul II is really taking the position of another pope who has been interred and has been moved.
Tell me a little bit about where Pope John Paul II will be.
GREGORY: Pope John Paul II is in one of the niches in the -- at the Constantinian level basilica. And that niche, at one time, was the burial place, the entombment place for Blessed John XXIII. But after his beatification, the body was moved upstairs into the upper basilica, thus leaving that space available and empty.
O'BRIEN: We've got much more to talk about.
We're going to take a short break.
And we are back in just a moment with our special coverage of the funeral of Pope John Paul II.
Stay with us.
O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody, to CNN's special coverage of the funeral of Pope John Paul II. The Vatican now saying that the time of the burial of the pope was 2:20 p.m. local time. They're six hours ahead of us East Coast time. That was 10 minutes ago, 8:20 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time.
We're back with the Archbishop Wilton Gregory of Atlanta. We were talking a moment ago about beatification. I want to ask you a little bit about what we saw on the casket which was a cross and the letter m.
ARCHBISHOP WILTON GREGORY, ATLANTA: That was the insignia that Pope John Paul II selected when he was elected. And it represents the artistic rendition of the Goenine (ph) Gospel account that Mary stood at the foot of the cross. That it's an example of graphic -- a graphic rendition of that particular Goenine biblical passage.
O'BRIEN: What does it mean to have a special devotion to the Virgin Mary? We've heard it before. The pope is not the only person, clearly, who has a special significant devotion to the Virgin Mary. What does it mean?
GREGORY: Within the Catholic Church, we have a tradition that dates back to apostolic times of honoring Mary because she was the Mother of God. She was the mother of Christ. She played a key role in the early church, as one of the believers, as -- in some respects, as the perfect believer.
She heard God's word, she gave it flesh and she became one of the disciples of the Lord. And through the centuries, the church has honored her under many different titles. The most ancient is that of being Mother of God.
O'BRIEN: Many people pointed to this moment in the service where they were moving the casket and getting it prepared for burial as one of the most touching. You could even sense, across our television screens, just how moved the crowd was. The crowd that made it inside the walls of the square, but also outside as well.
Another moving moment, I thought was when the representatives of the different countries brought up the bread and the wine as commemorative of Jesus' Last Supper. Can you explain to us what was going on then?
GREGORY: It was at the rite of the preparation of the gifts. It was the ritual offering of the gifts of bread and wine. That would be changed into the body and blood of Christ. Because the Holy Father had traveled so extensively, he'd celebrated mass in almost all of the countries that were represented.
I'm sure, in fact, in all of the countries that were represented by the -- by those who offered those gifts. So it was a way of reminding us of his missionary outreach to the world, really, and his welcoming of the various cultures and languages and races of the peoples of the church.
O'BRIEN: Underscored, I thought, as well, when you saw the different types of people coming from around the globe to this one event. Yet as Catholics, because the mass is celebrated exactly the same way, essentially, all taking part even though not necessarily understanding at all times what was being said, depending upon where they were from.
GREGORY: Certainly. It was an expression of the family nature of the church, that all of those people in native garb, most of them, coming forth to represent the church in a particular region, but doing so together. As brothers and sisters around a common table offering a common prayer for an uncommon man.
When some of the people who were watching, who were not Catholic but who came in from the United States, we heard them interviewed a while ago, Alessio Vinci was talking to them. They said it was sort of like an opera that they could follow. You smiled when you heard that. Do you think that's an accurate description, in a way?
GREGORY: The ritual life of the Catholic Church is a life that makes extensive use of symbols, of movement, of gesture, of artistry, of -- of garb. And so like an opera, a good portion of the meaning is not conveyed in language, but in all of the various components that are symbolically used.
O'BRIEN: Were you surprised, at all, that there was very little said about the suffering in the last years of Pope John Paul II by Cardinal Ratzinger, who was giving the homily?
GREGORY: Not really. Because while he alluded to it, he put that suffering in the context of the Holy Father's following the Lord, in his own suffering. So Pope John Paul II's suffering was joined to that of Christ, which is what St. Paul tells us that we can fill up in our own suffering, what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.
O'BRIEN: Archbishop Wilton Gregory we'll ask you to stick around, as we continue to show our viewers some of the most remarkable pictures of what was truly a remarkable ceremony, the funeral mass for Pope John Paul II. We're are told by the Vatican that he has now been buried.
A short break. We'll be back in a moment.
COOPER: Welcome back to Vatican City. We learned a short time ago, that about 10 or 15 minutes ago, Pope John Paul II was finally laid to rest in the grotto underneath St. Peter's Basilica.
All morning long, we'll show you moments from -- significant chunks of moments from the funeral mass for Pope John Paul II.
AMANPOUR: And what we're about to show you is a part of the mass in which there are the prayers of the faithful. They're prayers that are given up in offertory in what they call the Procession of the Faithful.
Those prayers were read in different nationalities and languages, representing the areas where the church is strongest around the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SINGING IN LATIN)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: The great words of the Christian faith, I believe, I believe, amen.
(CHOIR SINGING, IN LATIN)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, the Creator of Heaven and Earth.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: And in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. And descended into hell. Amen
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: And on the third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into Heaven. And sits at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge both the living and the dead. Amen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: I believe in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Catholic Church, the Communion of Saints, the Remission of Sins, the Resurrection of the Body, and Eternal Life. Amen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: Dearly beloved brothers and Sisters, let us pray to God our Father, who has gathered us together this day to celebrate the pastoral mystery of his only begotten Son, in the funeral rites of the pastoral Universal Church. That he may welcome him into his peace and that he may grant every good to the church and to the world.
(MALE SINGING IN LATIN)
We beseech thee, hear us, Lord Gracious keep us.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, SPEAKING FRENCH)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Pontiff Pope John Paul, the Christ, the Supreme Pastor, always living, for everlasting, may he intercede for us and that he may welcome him with love into his kingdom of light and peace. Let us pray unto the Lord. Lord, graciously hear us.
(UNIDENTIFIED MALE, SPEAKING AFRICAN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: The holy church of God, faithful to its mission, that it may be rich in renewal in Christ, of the human family. Let us pray unto the Lord.
Lord graciously hear us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, SPEAKING ASIAN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: For the people of all nations, so that in the respecting of justice they may form one single family in peace and be united in brotherly feelings of love. Let us pray unto the Lord.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, SPEAKING RUSSIAN)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: For the souls of the Roman pontiffs who have departed, and for all those who have announced the gospel in the church and have exercised a priestly ministry, may they be participants in the divine service in the liturgy of the glory of god in heaven, let us ask of the Lord.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, SPEAKING GERMAN)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: For all believers who have departed this life, we beseech you, the Lord, to find them worthy and grant them a welcoming into his heavenly kingdom.
(UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE, TRANSLATING: For all those of us here gathered together, having celebrated the sacred mysteries, one day we may be called into Christ, into his glorious kingdom, let us ask of the Lord. (CHOIR SINGING)
Lord, graciously hear us.
Oh, God of our salvation, hear us, who are calling upon thee, together with all the saints, and welcome him into the assembly of your chosen ones, the soul of your servant, and our pope, John Paul, who has trusted in the prayer of the church through Christ our Lord. Amen.
O'BRIEN: You have been listening to the Prayer of the Faithful. That's just part of Pope John Paul II's funeral mass on our special coverage here on CNN.
We're back if a moment. A short break.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(APPLAUSE, MONTAGE OF FUNERAL SIGHTS)
CROWD CHANTING: Santo, Santo, Santo!
O'BRIEN: Welcome back, everybody.
You can hear the crowd chanting, "Santo, Santo". Thousands of people who have gathered inside St. Peter's Square and of course the millions outside as well, and those who are watching around the globe, many thinking the same thing, thoughts about Pope John Paul II possibly one day being made a saint.
Welcome back to our special coverage of the funeral, the sights an sounds of the Funeral of Pope John Paul II, perhaps one of the most remarkable, the most beautiful, almost haunting things we saw this morning was the calling out of the saints' names. Let's play for you just a little bit of that. It was remarkable.
O'BRIEN: Calling for sainthood now for Pope John Paul II, as the crowd chants, "Santo, Santo, Santo," as well. Much more of the pictures, the words and the sounds of the funeral of Pope John Paul II after this break. Stay with us.
COOPER: Welcome back live to Vatican City, where it is almost 3:00 p.m. in the afternoon. The funeral mass of John Paul II is over. The burial of John Paul II is over as well. He has finally been laid to rest.
It's been a remarkable morning, a morning of emotion. Very palpable emotion at times, the crowds applauding, really stopping the service in a way we've never seen before.
AMPANPOUR: It was unprecedented. Applause, many, many times during the homily. You could see the cardinal, who was moved himself, Cardinal Ratzinger, delivering the homily, fairly surprised at the number of times that he was interrupted by applause. Entirely fitting, though, as you can imagine.
I think other images that stand out, this was an intensely Catholic ritual, belonging to centuries of Catholic tradition, but it also had an immensely ecumenical feel. Because in the back ground of all these cardinals dressed in their red and the archbishops in magenta, and the priests, and the very simple coffin of Pope John Paul II, you saw turbans and fezzes and yarmulkes and Catholics and other dignitaries, women in mantillas, the great Metropolitans and their head gear, the Metropolitans of the Eastern Catholic Church.
It was an incredibly divers group of people who came here to send off, if you like, Pope John Paul II, and thank him for his 26-year ministry.
COOPER: A diverse group of people, not just among the dignitaries who were here, but also in the crowd. I mean, all week long we have seen millions of people, literally, millions of people lining up to see Pope John Paul II.
And today, in the crowd, in St. Peter's Square and this crowd of hundreds of thousands which spilled out into the streets of Rome, some 4 million people having come to Rome to witness this event. We saw young and old, rich and pour, standing side-by-side. There really were no lines. There were no differences between people for that brief time, while the service was on. And really over these last several days we have seen people standing in line for up to 15 hours. Many of the people who were in St. Peter's Square this morning had been there really since last night.
AMANPOUR: And you can imagine that in normal circumstances, to have that kind of sea of humanity crushed against each other, waiting in line, inside barricades to get into the basilica, perhaps in other circumstances, other times, you might have expected bad humor, you might have expected a little bit of violence, a little bit of crime. We saw nothing of that. Just exceptional good humor, patience and devotion.
COOPER: There was this sense of community, too, not just this morning, but also all this week on this line. You know, Christiane and I both witnessed probably -- I saw at least a dozen people passing out, fainting or getting panic attacks while they're standing in this line. Because they've been standing there for 15 hours, they're tired, it is miserable. It's often cold at night, and the crush of the crowd.
And it was this extraordinary event when someone would suddenly -- people around them would realize they were sick, everyone in the crowd would yell out, "Doctore, Doctore," and they would sort of part the crowd and the paramedics would rush in. There was this great sense of community of everyone being in this together.
AMANPOUR: That's right. And, of course, the civil protection guards, all the police, all the security that's obviously been out, have been part of it as well. I mean, handing out all the necessities, water, all the, you know, free amenities that they possibly could muster for the people who came here. And now we enter the next phase.
We're joined by our CNN Vatican analysts, Delia and John. And they've been with us for all this last week, certainly in these last few hours of the funeral.
Delia, what is next in terms of the rituals as of this moment?
GALLAGHER: Well, you're right, Christiane. We enter now into this period of mourning, these nine days of mourning called the novem dialis. And so all of these pilgrims that are here, of course, aren't going to leave tonight. They are still going to be here. And they are going to be coming back to St. Peter's, in fact, for masses.
There are masses held every day at 5:00 in the afternoon. They will be headed by mostly the cardinals. Every day has a different group in charge of the mass. And so we will see different sorts of liturgies, as much as we saw today, in suffrage for the pope.
So we will see these people coming back. For another nine days they will be here.
COOPER: And, of course, John Allen, who has written the book, "Conclave," which is perhaps the best work on what happens next in terms of the conclave, it's really already begun in a sense. I mean, these cardinals are already talking with one another.
ALLEN: Yes. Delia has described what we're going to be seen in full public view. But obviously behind the scenes there is a parallel process going on right now, because now that the pope has been laid to rest the cardinals themselves have to shift to what comes next.
And they face a momentous choice beginning April 18, when the conclave begins. And so what will be happening during this next week is some informal but very important politics will be taking place.
Cardinals will begin meeting in twos and threes and tens and twenties, usually beginning in language groups with the French speakers, the Spanish speakers, the German speakers, the English speakers, to talk about what are the main issues facing the Catholic Church today, sort of taking stock of the pontificate of John Paul II. Then looking at what kind of profile of a leader is the church going to need to face those challenges.
COOPER: It sounds like a presidential election. I mean, it sounds like, you know, there are voting issues which people vote on, and they're looking for presidential, you know, qualities in a person. ALLEN: Yes. The main difference, of course, unlike a presidential election, there's no nominating convention. There are no 30-second ads. There are no buttons and bumper stickers. All of this is informal and subtle, but it's still political.
AMANPOUR: And in secret.
ALLEN: Yes. Quite right, in secret. Because -- and the theory behind that is that they want to protect the independence of the conclave. That is, that it's not the media and it's not public opinion, but it's the consciences of the cardinals that are driving the process.
And, of course, in the end, this is a process that is cloaked in ritual and romance. And the church believes that it unfolds under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
But in Catholic theology, you know, grace builds on nature. The fact that the Holy Spirit is involved does not make this any less a human and therefore political exercise.
AMANPOUR: And very, very human in that it's a religion. We're not talking about a political election. We're talking about the election of a spiritual leader, and a spiritual leader at a time in the Catholic Church when there is, one could say, in some parts of the Catholic Church, a crisis. People dropping away from the congregation, people not going to church. For instance, where we sit right now in Western Europe, even in this most Catholic of countries, Italy there is a crisis.
So clearly, the new pope is going to have to grapple with that. And of course, there are these -- these strictures, aren't there? I mean, they don't want to be moral relative, as they say. It's not about relativism or secularism. But they are going to have to, aren't they, in some way, address the spiritual needs of their own people?
ALLEN: Yes. Of course they are. Now, we should say the Catholic Church is an institution with 2,000 years of history. It has seen crises before.
It's seen heresies. It's seen schisms. So there's nothing new about the fact that the church is in crisis.
In fact, the word "crisis" is a great word which means, essentially judgment. And the cardinals have to make judgments. And, of course, which judgments they have to make will depend to some extent on which region of the world you're talking about.
Europe, of course, you have declining mass attendance rates, you have declining levels of vocations to the priesthood and religious life. You have declining fertility rates, lowest fertility rates in human history, ironically, in the most Catholic countries in Europe. But the story is different other places.
I mean, in Africa, for example, in the 20th century you went from three million Catholics to 120 million Catholics. There the problem is managing growth.
AMANPOUR: Let's just ask you a little bit to address some of the controversies in the last few years in the Catholic Church. Look, here we're seeing young people come out in the millions. We're seeing a devotion all over the world paid to this one incredible man.
Yet we also saw during this funeral a picture of one Cardinal Law, Cardinal Law. We didn't mention it at the time, it was quite a brief picture, but this is a man who has been centered on one of the most devastating scandals of the Catholic Church in recent times, the sex abuse and pedophilia scandal in the United States. And yet he's going to be leading some of the main masses starting this novem dialis.
ALLEN: Yes. Cardinal Law, of course, is the arch priest of St. Mary Major, which means he's in charge of one of the patriarchal basilicas. And that job traditionally leads the masses for the deceased pope.
But you're right. I think for many American Catholics who have just lived through the very painful trauma of this sex abuse crisis, and feel that perhaps the church is beginning to emerge, I think the visual symbolism there of seeing the man who, for better or for worse, rightly or wrongly, became the symbol of that crisis here on a very public stage, certainly will be sort of difficult to swallow.
COOPER: We're going to take a short break. Our coverage continues. A lot more.
We're going to talk to CNN's Jim Bittermann, who was in this square some 26 years ago when Karol Wojtyla became John Paul II. We'll have his reflections in a moment.
COOPER: And welcome back to our look back at the funeral mass of John Paul II. And it's really a celebration of his life as well.
CNN's Jim Bittermann has been covering popes for quite some time. He was in this square 26 years ago when a young man, a young priest, 58 years old, by the name of Karol Wojtyla became Pope John Paul II.
Jim, as the crowds are still hanging out in St. Peter's Square, what is it like where you are?
BITTERMANN: Well, I mean it's amazing. They've already started the transition here, I've got to tell you, Anderson. They've taken down the chairs from the requiem mass, and they're going to be preparing the cathedral, the basilica, for what's going to follow, which are going to be the masses tomorrow and throughout the week, to sort of set the stage for the conclave.
Now, one of the things that -- you know, I've been asked a couple of times this morning about sort of comparisons to previous popes. Really, it's unfair to make any kind of comparison, because Paul VI -- I was here when Paul VI died, and frankly he just wasn't that popular of a guy. He didn't have any kind of a media figure. The media was much less developed than it is today.
And John Paul I was only in office for 34 days. So he didn't really have a chance to build any kind of constituency the way John Paul II has.
I mean, when you think about watching all those leaders up there today, most of them had personal contacts somewhere along the line -- or at least probably 80 percent of them did -- some point along the line had had personal contact with John Paul II. He'd been everywhere.
And it's banal to say it, but I'm going to say it anyway. It's the end of an era.
They've got to -- the church is now faced with what I think a real problem. They have got to figure out how to replace this pope.
And there is, of course, some other problems that he's left behind -- for instance, a shortage of priests and a lack of parishioners. And we've talked about that.
But it's also the choice of how they're going to live up to the bar that has been raised by this pope, the idea that a pope flies all over the world. That didn't happen before.
I mean, air transport wasn't that good, but also because of the fact popes just didn't leave the Vatican, that popes go on television, go on the Internet. This next pope is going to have to be ready and willing and able -- and that's the key thing -- able to do all of those things.
So it's going to be very interesting in the coming weeks how the cardinals decide. I think that the chance for somebody spiritual, sort of sensitive and someone that writes a lot and doesn't have much of a media figure, much of a public figure, a public persona, has a whole lot of chance after this pope, because we're going to be making the comparisons right away.
For the next year, whoever the next pope is, we're going to be talking about, is he doing the same things as John Paul II did, is he able to do the same things? Is he traveling as much? Is he able to command television in the same way?
So it's going to be a tough ride for whoever has to follow. Anderson.
COOPER: Well, Jim, as you know, there have been some criticism at times of Pope John Paul II for not being an administrator, for allowing others to take care of a lot of the details and sort of just signing documents, sometimes perhaps even without fully reading them. If there is -- if the next pope is more of an administrator, still that pope will be expected, as you said -- because the bar has been raised -- he will be expected to be an ambassador, and to go out, and to constantly be going out and traveling.
It's a very difficult thing to try to have it -- you know, have your cake and eat it, too, to be traveling all the time and to be hands-on as an administrator.
BITTERMANN: Exactly. I mean, there are a lot of people in the Vatican that can tell you exactly the percentage -- and I think it's around 10 percent -- of the time that the pope was gone, that was out of the Vatican on trips. And because of that, they are a little bit unhappy.
I mean, they won't say -- it's not expressed as sort of unhappiness, but it's always said that, you know, there are things that could have been done better. You know, the organization could have been done better. You could have addressed the problems of the Curia better. You could have made sure the Curia wasn't going off in different directions. The Curia being the sort of administration, the central administration of the church.
And so the pope was criticized. Just very quietly, of course, but was sotto voce, as they say in Italy, was criticized by some in the Curia. And a lot of people would like to see a more centralized operation, a stronger hands-on operation as far as the next pope is concerned.
But by the same token, to have those skills and also have the public skills, you're asking a lot. And as John said earlier in the morning, there's just no one out there on the horizon that sort of fits all the demands that are going to be made. Anderson.
COOPER: Well, I want to -- Jim, I just want to read you something that John Allen, our Vatican analyst, had written in his book, "Conclave." He said, "It's an impossible job. And despite what you may hear, few church leaders want it."
This is one of the things we're going to talk about when we come from break. We'll also be talking with Cardinal Keeler from Baltimore.
We'll be right back.
COOPER: And welcome back to our continuing coverage of the funeral mass for Pope John Paul II. We hope you have been joining us this morning, because we have witnessed some truly remarkable moments. We want to replay some of the most emotional moments now.
AMANPOUR: Yes, you know, during his homily, Cardinal Ratzinger said, "This is not the time to speak of the specific content of this rich pontificate." Yet he did.
He summed up this life as a young man who had lived under the Nazi fascism, who had lived under Soviet communists, tyranny, and who had made his way against great odds to where he found himself pope, head of the Catholic Church.
And, of course, the people responded to that life story today. And we're going to show you the final moments of the open-air funeral that was here in St. Peter's Square, where what we call -- what are known as the papal gentlemen, took the coffin again on their shoulders, was taking it back into St. Peter's Basilica for its final burial, and then at the last moment, turned around and in very moving tribute, had the coffin face the crowd for a final salute.
COOPER: And this is something that had been done several days ago in St. Peter's Square when Pope John Paul II was moved into the basilica for public viewing. There was, again, that dramatic turn, and the crowd signaling its adoration.
GALLAGHER: It's surely one of the most poignant moments of this day, I think. And the people really responding to that, but responding throughout, as Christiane said, throughout Cardinal Ratzinger's homily, interrupting him.
And it reminded me of when they used to interrupt the pope. When he was giving his talks, they would constantly interrupt him with chanting of "John Paul II, we love you." And the pope would respond, "John Paul II, he loves you."
And there was always this interplay with the crowd. And so today, of course, is even more poignant because -- because he's not here. So that was their last good-bye, that moment with the coffin, that last...
COOPER: And a very simple coffin made out of wood, cypress. That, of course, just the first of three coffins -- of two other coffins that this coffin will be placed inside.
Talk a little bit about, John, from this moment that we're watching of the coffin, as it's about to go into St. Peter's Basilica, what happened to John Paul after entering the basilica?
ALLEN: Sure. Because actually, there was a ritual after the one we saw.
Of course we lost the image when he entered the basilica. But what happens is the coffin is then taken down the nave, and it's the central aisle. It's called a nave because the church is supposed to be a ship, the ship of salvation.
So it's carried down that nave through a particular door down to the grotto. That's the area below the main floor in St. Peter Peter's Basilica. And then, as you say, the coffin of wood is placed in a larger coffin of metal, and then finally a coffin of oak.
And then it was lowered into the earth, as was John Paul's specific request, to be buried in the earth, rather than in an ornate sarcophagus above ground. And then some prayers were led by the Camerlengo. That's the cardinal who governs the church in this interim period, Cardinal Eduardo Martinez Somalo.
A hymn was sung. And then as we know from the Vatican this afternoon, it was roughly 2:20, I believe it was, Rome time, that the burial actually took place. And that would mark the conclusion of this remarkable, remarkable morning. AMANPOUR: And again, an unprecedented acclimation for this pope when they were calling the crowd "Santo" and "Santo subito," implying that they wanted him to be a saint. This is a little bit jumping the gun. But people do get emotional, don't they?
GALLAGHER: They were talking about it even before today. They've been talking about "John Paul the Great," "St. Pope John Paul." And, of course, this was a pope who made saints of past popes. So I don't think it would be unusual that people would say that.
COOPER: Traditionally, though, there is a mandatory waiting period.
ALLEN: A five-year waiting period. But I would also note that this is exactly how the sainthood process is supposed to work in the Catholic Church.
I mean, it's supposed to be the most democratic process of all. It starts with a popular devotion. The church comes in after the fact to ratify that this person who has that following is worthy of it. And, of course, I think the crowd sort of wanted to put an exclamation point. But as far as we're concerned, we know right now.
GALLAGHER: And I think Bishop Gregory referred to the first miracle of -- you know, to be a saint, you need two miracles as well. And Bishop Gregory referred to that handshake between the president of Syria and the president of Israel as the first miracle of Pope John Paul II.
COOPER: It was an extraordinary moment to see -- to see this. What happens in the coming days? I mean, you know, the crowds dissipate at some point, I imagine.
ALLEN: Yes. What will happen, as Delia said earlier, we're in a ritual period called the novem dialis. This comes from the fact that in ancient Rome, when an emperor or a potentate would die, there are a prescribed nine days of mourning. And there will be liturgies every day, but obviously they're not going to draw the kind of crowds that we saw here this morning.
Parallel to that, of course, the cardinals will be organizing themselves for the next immensely important moment, which will begin on the 18th of April, when they enter the Sistine Chapel singing "Veni Creator Spiritus," meaning come holy spirit, praying that the holy spirit will guide their deliberations, and they will begin the process of electing a man who is going to step into these huge, huge shoes.
GALLAGHER: And, once again, we'll be looking at the facade of St. Peter's Basilica. We'll be watching that again after we watch the Sistine Chapel, because it's from the loggia (ph) there, the balcony where the pope will first come out and give his first speech to the world, as Pope John Paul II did...
AMANPOUR: And before that, the much talked about smoke will come from the Vatican chimney.
AMANPOUR: White if it's a pope, and black if it is not. Of course we have been trying to figure out what chemical it is they put in to turn the smoke either black or white.
But this pope I think also instituted something that's going to enable journalists and observers around the world to correctly call the pope when he's actually named. Because there was a bit of confusion last time around.
ALLEN: Yes, right.
AMANPOUR: When we talked to Jim Bittermann, the color of the smoke wasn't exactly clear and it was all a little confusing. So this time this pope has stipulated, Pope John Paul II before he died, that I believe bells should be rung as well to signify to perhaps some journalists who can't see the smoke straight that this has actually happened.
COOPER: Well, now with Lasik eye surgery it will be much easier, too.
ALLEN: Well, actually, when the pope's liturgist, Archbishop Marini, held a press conference the other day. And he was describing this change, and he said, "This way everyone, including you journalists, will be able to know what's going on."
AMANPOUR: Always blame it on the journalists.
GALLAGHER: Especially us.
COOPER: That's always so easy. Bill Hemmer is still down in the crowd in St. Peter's Square, where he has been much of this morning.
Bill, it looks -- from my vantage point, it looks like there are still a fair number of people standing around in St. Peter's Square. They do not seem to be leaving.
HEMMER: Yes, a good number, Anderson. You're right. At the end of the funeral service here, a lot of people started to linger and walk away from St. Peter's Square.
At the same time, too, thousands of people came out from the main route that leads into St. Peter's Square. These were the people who essentially were shut out during the funeral service. Now they are getting a chance to come in here.
We've seen the barricades come down. These are the barricades that helped funnel the crowd and control them really for the past five days into St. Peter's Square for those thousands, if not millions, who came to pay final respects to Pope John Paul II.
For the first time in a week now, St. Peter's Square is reopened. And it will stay this way now as we move through the next nine days and heading toward the conclave on Monday the 18th of April. Now, a couple of points I think here. Listening to the videotape play again during the funeral service, and listening to the applause, too, to non-Catholics, you may not consider this to be that significant. But to Catholics, to hear applause at a ceremony, much less a funeral, much less a funeral for a pope who served for 26 years, that is not the norm. And I think in so many ways it's the ultimate compliment, almost as if everybody here was saying, "Job well done."
Now, here in St. Peter's Square, this is where everybody will come again on the 18th of April, on that Monday, and they'll stare up to that right-hand corner there, just to the right of St. Peter's Basilica. And they'll watch to the roof of the Sistine Chapel with a keen eye on that chimney and await the smoke that will announce whether or not the cardinals have agreed on a pope to lead the church or whether or not they will continue their deliberations and their voting.
One other thing I think that's worthy of pointing out here, I spoke with a woman just a short time ago. She says, "I've never been to proud to be a Catholic in all of my life."
She's 65. And then she concluded her statement by saying, "I don't believe this is a death. To me, this is a birth," almost as if there is this spiritual renewal throughout the Catholic Church, and I think especially for American Catholics.
When you look at the priest abuse scandal taking place back in the U.S., this is going to be a moment of encouragement for the church. And Pope John Paul II laid that out quite well here at the Vatican -- Anderson. COOPER: Well said. Well said, Bill.
It also reminds me of what Cardinal Ratzinger said during his homily. He said, "We can be sure that our beloved pope is standing today at the window of the Father's house, that he sees us, and blesses us."
A new life, indeed.
Our coverage continues in just a moment. We'll be talking to Cardinal Keeler from Baltimore, who will join us live.
COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage live from Vatican City. I'm Anderson Cooper, with chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour.
We have seen so many remarkable moments of the last several hours for the funeral mass for Pope John Paul II. He has now been buried in the grotto underneath St. Peter's Basilica.
We're very pleased right now to be joined by Cardinal Keeler from Baltimore, who has come to say goodbye to Pope John Paul II and also to take part in the conclave to elect a new pope. Cardinal, thank you very much for being with us.
CARDINAL WILLIAM KEELER, ARCHBISHOP OF BALTIMORE: Thank you.
COOPER: Your thoughts, your feelings upon standing there, seeing the casket and hearing that applause, that rapturous applause and the cheers which interrupted the homily and interrupted the service several times.
KEELER: They were very moving moments for me, personally, because I could mentally think of other events that happened over the years and associate those events with the applause now, and...
COOPER: Had you ever seen anything like that?
COOPER: I mean, during a...
KEELER: No. I was here for the investiture of Pope John Paul John I, here for the funeral of Pope Pius XII and election of Pope John XXIII. I've never saw crowds or emotions like what we have seen today.
ALLEN: Cardinal, I wanted to ask you about this pope's relationship with Judaism. I know that the Christian-Jewish dialogue has been a particular passion of yours, as it was, of course, for John Paul II. In some ways, you've revolutionized Christianity and especially the Catholic Church's relationship with Judaism.
Would you say that's going to be one of the most important parts of his legacy?
KEELER: It is going to be. But, you know, John, the thing to remember is what Pope John Paul II did was take what the Second Vatican Council had said and make it come alive. He dramatized it by his visits. He met with the leaders of the Jewish communities wherever he went. If it was possible, to squeeze it into the itinerary, that was part of it.
ALLEN: In one of the many meetings, perhaps the meeting of which he addressed the largest number of rabbis ever talked to by a pope was in Miami when he went there in '87. There was a smaller one in Rome in January. But it was just fantastic what occurred and the bridges that he built.
How much do you think his personal biography, growing up in Wadowice and in the shadow of Auschwitz, his personal experience of having Jewish friends growing up, how much was his biography part of that passion?
KEELER: I think it's a major part of it. Once, when I was in a private audience with him -- this would have been in '88, 1988 -- I was the bishop of Harrisburg in Pennsylvania. And the private audience, the bishop was supposed to talk about the diocese for seven or eight minutes. I was conscious of the time passing. Pope John Paul talked about his Jewish friend that he found here in Rome, and how he would see him regularly. Finally, I had to say, Holy Father, if I don't talk about the Diocese of Harrisburg, the people back home will -- I'll have real trouble with them. So he let me then talk about Harrisburg.
AMANPOUR: Cardinal, I think one of the trials of John Paul II was the triumph his own personality. And yet, for many Catholics he embodied certain contradictions. For instance, here was a man who publicly embraced AIDS victims, and yet the Catholic Church speaks vehemently against homosexuals, will not sanction the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS, in your most, you know, growing congregation, which is in Africa. When you sit down and you are part of the election process for a new pope, do those inconsistencies have to be addressed for the future? Or do you not think they're inconsistencies?
KEELER: Well, Christiane, I have to say what has happened often is that people simply didn't understand Pope John Paul II, what he said, because they would be -- what they got, they got often through the media, including television like this. And what they got was just a few sentences or words taken out of context.
When you saw the whole context of what the pope said or presented, it was very consistent with what Jesus did in the scriptures, the challenge that is given to each one of us to do the very best that we can, to live in accord with the commandments of God.
AMANPOUR: So, what do you think, though, as you sit down to elect a new pope with your fellow members of the conclave? Are you looking for somebody to follow precisely in John Paul II's footsteps? Is that possible? Are you looking for somebody or will you be looking for somebody who many Catholics feel they might need somebody more in tune with the modern world?
KEELER: I think, you know, speaking for myself and what I have said a number of times up to and including this week, is we're looking for somebody who will lift up the gospel of Jesus Christ in a way that is clear and understandable and persuasive.
AMANPOUR: And what is it going to be like, do you think, these however many days the conclave lasts?
KEELER: I think it's going to be like...
AMANPOUR: It's secret. You have new dormitories. What are you expecting? Is this your first time?
KEELER: Yes. Oh, of course. There are only a couple of us that have been in conclaves before.
COOPER: That's right, 114 of the 117 have been appointed by John Paul.
KEELER: Yes. So what I expect is a long retreat, a retreat in which we try and get close to the Lord and get to know each other better and cast our votes. AMANPOUR: When you consider some of the dwindling congregations, is this a concern of yours, for instance, in Western Europe, in some parts of the United States? Obviously there are growing congregations in Latin America and Africa. But where we're sitting now, it's dwindling.
KEELER: Well, one of the things that I think is very important is the issue of secularism today and how we can help people to understand there say spiritual dimension to things. If they depend on a consumerist culture, on advertising, on television, on what they see, they're being short-changed in terms of the values that, I think, people ought to be incorporating into their lives.
COOPER: Do you think that John Paul II was watching today? Do you think he saw all of this? And if so, what do you think he thought of it?
KEELER: He saw it. I have participated in discussions in which we talked about various aspects of our life in the United States, and he heard how we were trying to preach the gospel there. And I think he understood the situation that we found ourselves in.
ALLEN: Cardinal, you heard the crowd chanting "Santo subito" today. Are you ready to say that you regard John Paul II as a saint?
KEELER: I have already. I think he's one of the Lord's own. Now, the formal canonical process is another matter. But he's...
ALLEN: As far as you're concerned.
KEELER: As far as I'm concerned, he's in the peace of the Lord.
COOPER: Cardinal Keeler, we very much appreciate you being with us. Thank you very much.
KEELER: Thank you.
COOPER: Especially on this windy afternoon, we appreciate you coming all the way up to our roof. Thank you very much.
KEELER: Thank you.
COOPER: We have a lot more coverage ahead on CNN. Stay with us. We'll be back from Vatican City.
COOPER: Welcome back to Vatican City. Our live coverage continues this morning. Some extraordinary moments we've seen.
This evening at 7:00 Eastern Time in the United States, we are going to be replaying the entire funeral mass for Pope John Paul II.
So, a lot of you probably weren't up this morning at 3:00 a.m. when our coverage began, and 4:00 a.m. when the mass actually began. So 7:00 tonight Eastern Time right here on CNN we will be replaying that mass for you. You will definitely want to tune in to that.
Soledad O'Brien is standing by in New York. She has with her Archbishop Wilton Gregory, who has been talking with us all morning about the proceedings and about his thoughts on this very special day. Soledad.
O'BRIEN: Anderson, you know, it was very interesting. We were talking as you were talking about secularism with Cardinal Keeler just a moment ago. It's a huge issue, according to my guest here in the United States.
It's really Catholics who may be Catholic and yet don't actually have a real connection to the church. How big of a problem, an issue is this for the church as it moves forward?
GREGORY: Well, I think the influence of secularism in the United States has not only impacted Catholics. I think it's impacted people of most religious backgrounds. It's perhaps the result of our affluence, the result of our moral relativism, where we decide the rightness or wrongness of things, either by polls.
So, if a majority of people think something is right, it's right because the majority thinks it's right. Our lack of inability to see objective right or wrong, that there's some things that are simply always wrong, because they offend a natural moral law, an internal law.
So, those signs of secularism, I think, are clearly a concern for us in the United States, for Catholics, as well as other religious communities.
O'BRIEN: You certainly set up the problem well. So now what does, and does the next pope do to deal with that?
WILTON: I think he has to continue a very aggressive, strong teaching posture, and teaching in terms of the society in which we live. I mean, we have to make more effective use of the media. I mean, so many people get their information on media and television and Internet. We have to make more effective use of the means of social communication to get our message out there.
So, maybe I'm saying that we need to continue that kind of charismatic outreach and involvement with the world that Pope John Paul II began.
O'BRIEN: In the next picking of the next pope, is this something the cardinals have in the back of their mind as they sit down in the conclave now?
WILTON: Well, I suspect, to be perfectly honest, Soledad, the cardinals have been reflecting in prayer on this for a long time. Obviously, in the past several years, the Holy Father's health has declined. And many of the cardinals, I think, probably have given prayer and thought in prayer to what does the church need, and what are the qualities that we need in the next pontiff. And now, of course, they're in a very intense period of prayer and dialogue among themselves as to who would be best qualified to assume that awesome responsibility.
O'BRIEN: Before I let you go, I want to get some of your impressions of all that you have seen and heard as well this morning. An incredibly impressive ceremony when you especially consider a man who really held simplicity, I think, very close to his heart.
WILTON: Oh, without a doubt. In the many times it was my good fortune to be at his table, he dined in a very simple room. I've seen many, many dining rooms far more elaborate than the simple room where he brought people in to share a meal and to engage in conversation.
So this man, who was not very much concerned about externals, certainly received a wonderful expression of the affection and the faith of the people.
I felt proud to be a Catholic today, just to see our people from around the world come together, in prayer and in a spirit of unity and hope, and it inspired me to believe that the next pontiff will have big shoes to fill. That's going to be said over and over again. And he will have -- he will serve under the shadow of a man of tremendous personal charisma, gifts, talents. But he's going to be caring for a church that is very much alive with hope and with direction, with problems, but also with great possibilities.
O'BRIEN: Archbishop Wilton Gregory, it's nice to have you as our guest this morning. Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts and spending the morning with us. We certainly appreciate it.
WILTON: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Our special coverage of the funeral of Pope John Paul II continues right after this break. Stay with us.
AMANPOUR: For the past seven hours and indeed for the past seven days, we have been talking about the great life of Pope John Paul II. We have talked about him as a man, as a religious leader. We've talked about the world leaders who have been here, of Pope John Paul's incredible outreach, his reconciliation with all of the world's faiths, the outpouring from the pilgrims, the millions who have come here.
And we also now, as we wrap up our extensive coverage, are going to ask one last comment from our Vatican analysts. They have covered this pope for many years.
What are you thinking as we have said now good-bye to Pope John Paul II?
ALLEN: Well, I should say, Christiane, I've covered the pope a long time, probably have written five million words about him. And in doing so, you have to be objective. This was a complex figure, governing in turbulent times. There's a perfectly legitimate discussion to be had about particular choices he may have made or policies he pursued.
But at the end of the day, beyond all of that, I mean, the truth is that he was the real deal. I mean, he was a man of integrity and authenticity and inspired that kind of personal connection, also with me that we've been talking about all morning.
And so, as we say good-bye to him, I guess what I recall are those words that Hamlet spoke to his own father, when he said, he was a man. Take him for all and all. I shall not look upon his like again.
GALLAGHER: Well, my thoughts in these past few days obviously have been about the pope. Covering him suffering so much in the past few months, you know, we were so concentrated on this painful pope, this painful face. And now, of course, he's not feeling that pain anymore.
And I think that the wonderful thing is that the world is able to see, instead of those images of the suffering pope now, they can see almost the resurrected pope and the crowd who is there behind him. We've always known that the crowd has been there behind him, but I think today has offered a special glimpse to the rest of the world just what we are able to witness every day at the Vatican.
COOPER: Delia Gallagher and John Allen, Vatican analysts, thanks for our coverage this morning.
Our coverage does continue. We're going to take a short break and then bring you some of the most haunting images, the most moving images from this morning, the liturgy of the saints and the last time we saw John Paul II's casket. We'll be right back.
COOPER: We will be replaying the entire funeral mass for John Paul II tonight at 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time. I hope you join us live on CNN for that.
As we wrap up our coverage this morning, this afternoon, we came to this story thinking we were covering the death, the death of Pope John Paul II, the death of a man. But really this story was about life, the life of a remarkable man, the life of a church, and the life of a people who turned out in such huge numbers this week, with a deep faith and a deep love in their hearts.
AMANPOUR: Indeed, Anderson. And, of course, for the Catholic faith this is about eternal life. And perhaps one of the most poignant moments on that note, during the homily when Cardinal Ratzinger pointed to the apartment of Pope John Paul II and reminded people that he was unable on his last appearance to talk to them. It was so painful, that one on Easter Sunday. But he said now, now the pope is watching us. And everybody in the crowd applauded. We leave you now with that very poignant and solemn song, the "Litany of the Saints," where every single one of the saints is named, and then the cantor says, "Pray for him," meaning pray for the pope. And we will also show you the last picture of the coffin of John Paul II being turned slowly around on the shoulders of the Papal Gentlemen and given for one last salute to the people, who again roared their acclamation.