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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for April 8, 2005, CNNHN

Aired April 08, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Breaking news in the story of nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford tonight. Sources reveal the cause of death for this nine- year-old little girl, asphyxiation. And worse, it is suspected Jessica Lunsford was buried alive. We take you live to Florida for the latest in the Jessie Lunsford case.
We will also bring you the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. And we go live to Rome as cardinals converge to elect the new pope.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

In the Michael Jackson case, another former Jackson employee says he saw Jackson molesting one of the most famous child stars ever.

And breaking news tonight: Was Jessica Lunsford buried alive and still alive when police checked Couey`s home? Tonight, in Philadelphia, Marc Klaas. Marc`s daughter, Polly, kidnapped and killed. In Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell; in Denver, defense attorney Lisa Wayne; in L.A. psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall.

But first to Miami, Florida, with CNN`s Susan Candiotti.

Susan, what`s the latest, friend?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, as if this case wasn`t tragic and sad enough, and now this. Sources close to the investigation tell us that it appears that Jessica Lunsford was, in fact, alive when John Couey, the alleged killer and kidnapper, buried her in the backyard behind the home where he had been living.

Now, the Citrus County sheriff`s office will not comment on this information. However, sources close to the investigation, law enforcement sources, plural, close to the investigation, do tell us that this is what Couey is saying.

However, they stress that, at this time, they have not been able to fully substantiate and confirm what his claims are because, in part, they are still waiting for the full autopsy report to be completed. And that is about three to four weeks away.

Initial reports already have indicated that Jessica died because of asphyxiation. We do know that much. But it`s important to remind our viewers of, again, the horror of this situation, remembering that after he allegedly kidnapped her, Couey told authorities that he took her practically right across the street, a home almost diagonally across the street from where the Lunsford home was, and kept her there for at least one or two days before he did away with her, allegedly -- Nancy?

GRACE: Oh, Susan. Susan Candiotti was with us throughout the search for little Jessica Lunsford. And it was a massive search, Susan. Didn`t cops go by John Evander Couey`s home during this time? Which says to me, Susan, I can deduce that Couey was there in the home hiding. That`s also what is being sourced tonight. But during that time, Jessica`s life could have been saved?

CANDIOTTI: Well, that appears to be a distinct possibility, according to sheriff`s office investigators themselves. Remember, too, it is also believed that she was sexually assaulted, as well, according to investigators.

What this new information is, it came out in the form of a memo from the prosecutor`s office. And what they`re saying is that, while they were swarming all over that neighborhood looking for Jessica, in fact, they were at that very house where Couey was, not once, but twice.

The first time -- rather, the second time, Couey told investigators in his confession, allegedly, that he was there at the time investigators stopped by. Apparently, the first time they were asking his half sister and other people who were staying there about Couey. He, apparently, wasn`t there. But they were simply canvassing the neighborhood.

The second time they said they went back was because they heard about some suspicious drug activity there, but the memo states that, at that time, they did not have enough information to conduct a search or to arrest anyone at that time.

GRACE: I want to go to Marc Klaas.

Marc, just when we thought it couldn`t get any worse, we discover that Jessie was, in fact, dead, that Jessie had, in fact, been molested, obviously, most likely, allegedly, by John Evander Couey. Now this.

What death could be worse? And not only that, Mark Klaas, the irony that cops were right there, that the girl was allegedly kept alive for two days under their nose. Think about it.

Marc, he didn`t have a car. Remember, he left town on a Greyhound bus. He didn`t have his own place. That girl was either hidden in there, in that home, or in somebody else`s vehicle when the cops came by.

And, Marc, I know you have read all the reports out. Some of the detectives referred to the people in his home as cracked-out druggies. What this girl, nine-years-old, went through before her death -- I wonder if she heard the cops come to the door, Marc.

MARC KLAAS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: You know, I have to ask myself how appropriate it is to release unsubstantiated information like this, given the impact that it will have on Jessica`s family. I mean, this is a horror that they will live with for the rest of their lives.

And I wouldn`t be surprised if this is going to be the thing that leads them over the edge -- certain members of this family over the edge into perhaps even insanity, given these facts.

Now, listen, we can`t second-guess law enforcement`s effort. Law enforcement did what they had to do. They went to that house two times. They didn`t have the information they needed to issue a search warrant.

However, I have to ask myself about these so-called search-and-rescue experts, these dog handlers that should have been able to track this girl 150 yards. Either they don`t know how to read the dogs or the dogs are absolutely useless.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute, though. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I get your drift. I agree with you.

But back to Susan Candiotti. Remember, Susan, when the dogs were called in, you and I were on-air together that night, remember? And they suddenly stopped the search within, I guess, a quarter mile of Couey and the girl`s home. The dogs clearly knew the child had not left the area. Remember when they sealed off that much of the area around the home?

CANDIOTTI: Well, the sheriff always stressed that he had a gut feeling that she was close to home, couldn`t quite pinpoint as to why that was, but he said he always had that feeling. And remember, they were, indeed, searching very hard.

I also want to make it perfectly clear, Nancy, that before we went with this information this night, we made sure that the family was informed of this information before we reported it on your broadcast tonight.

GRACE: Susan, I know, without you even telling me, that you would have taken care of that.

Here in the studio with me, a veteran defense attorney, Renee Rockwell. Marc Klaas was just defending the cops. And I agree with him, Renee. But here`s the kicker: The cops were canvassing the area. They had no reason to believe she was in there.

But what about -- and I`m quoting, "coked-out individuals," in the home? What charges, if any, are they facing if they knew that girl was in Couey`s possession?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Now, Nancy, you know in Florida now there is no charge that makes it a felony or even a misdemeanor to know that there is a sexual offender in your home and you`re not reporting it to the police.

I know that since this death of this precious little girl, that the sheriff has gone to the legislature and tried to make it a felony to harbor a sex offender. At that point, the police didn`t even know that he was there when they first went there because he was not registered as living in that area.

GRACE: ... in that spot.

ROCKWELL: What they did what they did a county-wide search to determine where all the sexual predators were. At that point, they went to the home where he was to be registered, noticed he wasn`t there.

GRACE: Susan Candiotti brought up the fact that she had made sure the family was aware of this information before it was made public tonight.

Take a listen to Jessie`s father, Mark Lunsford.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK LUNSFORD, FATHER OF JESSICA LUNSFORD: All my life, I have done nothing but raise kids and work. And this was my last job with Jessie, to raise her, and you took that away from me, Couey. And my father was lenient when he says that he has hope that God has mercy on your soul. I don`t feel that way. I hope you rot in hell, and I hope you get the death penalty. And I hope you can find it somewhere in you to be a man, and stand up and take your punishment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Susan Candiotti, the knowledge of Florida law that I have, this case, if these allegations are all true, there are multiple aggravating circumstances under which the state can seek the death penalty.

CANDIOTTI: Well, certainly, yes, especially when there is sexual abuse involving a minor. That, alone, under Florida law, does leave open that possibility.

But we must remind people as well that these people that were living in that house have been charged. They`re not, at this point, they`re charged with an obstruction charge. What we are quite right to point out, as the prosecution memo does, that there is currently no Florida statute that makes it a crime to lie about the whereabouts of a sexual offender or to lie, necessarily, about anything to a police officer. But they have been charged with an obstruction charge at this point.

GRACE: Well, Susan, are they behind bars or are they back home looking at their little traffic ticket for obstruction?

CANDIOTTI: I don`t know the answer to that. I don`t know if they posted bond.

GRACE: Well, you know, Susan, just when we thought the news couldn`t be any worse, just when we were getting some type of understanding of what became of Jessie Lunsford, tonight, everyone, Susan Candiotti is breaking the news that it is now believed, not only was Jessie Lunsford kept alive for several days after her disappearance by a sex offender -- you can only imagine what the little girl went through -- but that she may have been buried alive.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUNSFORD: I think they got him here real quickly, and we need to prosecute him. And I need everybody`s support on pushing the death penalty upon this man. He is scum. And anybody that acts like him or even resembles him is scum. And you do not deserve to be amongst us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUNSFORD: I`m not only a victim`s father. I`m his concerned father, and I`m a concerned grandparent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the day this sweet-spirited nine-year-old was found, her dad has pushed lawmakers to fill loopholes John Couey fell through. John Couey skipped out on sex offender registration and he violated probation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you are a sexual predator or offender, and you think Florida is not going to be tough on you, think again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It is a dark night for the Lunsford family tonight. They had just laid their little girl, Jessie, to rest when now sources confirm the possibility Jessie Lunsford, a nine-year-old little girl, was buried alive.

I know you remember the manhunt, the intense manhunt for this little girl. News outlets all over the country on alert, Amber Alerts. It did no good. And ultimately, the little girl was found just yards away from her home. Jessie Lunsford had been taken, apparently, by convicted sex offender John Evander Couey.

Let`s talk about forensics, guys. The word is tonight that this little girl was buried alive.

Now, let me quickly go to Lisa Wayne, defense attorney. Lisa, you`ve tried quite a few cases. The forensics in this case that could indicate the little girl was buried alive, number one, asphyxiation. You would have the peticia (ph) of the eye burst, which commonly happens. You could tell if somebody was manually strangled or if it was strangulation by ligature (ph). But how buried alive? What are your thoughts?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, there`s going to have to be some indication of struggle once she was buried. You know, when you keep talking about this, my heart is, and my hope is, like everybody out there, is that his statement is not reliable, that there are going to be things that he says that are exaggerated, embellished, that he has a mental illness that`s driven this, and that what he`s simply saying will not be true.

GRACE: That`s a good question, Lisa.

Let me throw that to Susan Candiotti. Susan, is a lot of this information coming from Couey`s own statement?

CANDIOTTI: Oh, yes. He is known to be a drug user, that`s for sure. And certainly, the sheriff has said that this man was in a drug haze.

And so we may never know, he had said, whether he kept her for -- he certainly believes that she was kept alive for at least a day and possibly more. But the sheriff himself has said that Couey was taking a lot of drugs at that time. And so these are his statements.

And that`s why it`s so important that they wait for the full results of the autopsy to be known, aside from the initial results of asphyxiation.

GRACE: Well, Susan, I have gone over it and over it in my mind. Where could he have kept the girl? She either had to be there in the mobile home or in somebody else`s car. He didn`t have a car.

CANDIOTTI: Well, we certainly do know that they collected a lot of evidence from among other rooms in the house, the bedroom where he had been staying in that house. So we have yet to learn if, in fact, that is where they will collect some important information...

GRACE: Yes.

CANDIOTTI: ... and, of course, whether they`re getting it from somewhere else, as well.

GRACE: Right, right. Susan, I think you`re right, that must have been where she was being concealed.

To Renee Rockwell, let`s talk about forensics. You have defended murder cases just as I have prosecuted them. What kind of forensics would go to show this child was buried alive, that that was her mode of death?

ROCKWELL: First of all, Nancy, I think that they would certainly test whether there were any kind of particles in her nostrils, whether there was any type of struggle, where they were test under her fingernails to see if she was clawing, scratching. And the reason is this so important because, Nancy, this, too, is another point that...

GRACE: Aggravating circumstance.

ROCKWELL: ... exactly, for a death penalty, as you see that the father well is pushing for.

GRACE: Yes, death by heinous mode, torture, all of those can add up to an aggravating circumstance equaling a death penalty.

Back to Renee Rockwell. I have been thinking about the forensics to show that this girl was asphyxiated, buried alive. And it brings to mind the first murder case I had which was a young woman who was asphyxiated. She had a plastic bag over her head, and she tried so hard to breathe that the plastic went up into her nostrils.

ROCKWELL: I think I...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And when I saw the autopsy picture, I had to drive to the morgue and ask them what was up the victim`s nostrils. And it was a plastic bag where she had struggled to breathe. And as you point out, I would expect to find either dirt, or a bag, or some substance up her nose, her mouth, in her lungs to show she was still alive, possibly cracked nails, struggling to get out, dirt under the fingernails, if she was in a bag, plastic to get out. What do you think?

ROCKWELL: Not only that, Nancy, but the fingernails to test if there was somebody else that might have been involved in this. Remember, several family members were there. And not only that, but certainly they`d be testing her blood to see if maybe she wasn`t in the house and possibly drugged. That`s all going to come out in the autopsy.

GRACE: I`m also wondering if cops were there when she was there. She had to be bound and subdued, had to be gagged in some way.

Quick break, everyone. As we go to break, you know the top story. Nine-year-old Jessie Lunsford possibly buried alive.

To "Trial Tracking": Another teacher arrested for allegedly having sex with students. Twenty-six-year-old high school teacher, Elizabeth Stow, allegedly had sex with not one, not two, but three, yes, three 17- year-old male students. Other students at Tulare Western High School in California told police Stow liked to party and was friendly with the boys. Maybe all the teachers need to be a little less hands on?

No trial date set yet, but we will keep you posted.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: You`re seeing a shot of a public memorial for Jessie Lunsford. The nine-year-old girl went missing out of her home in Homosassa, Florida. Her grandmother had tucked her in bed around 10:00 pm. The next morning, when her father went to wake her up, Jessie was gone. It launched one of the biggest manhunts in Florida history. And the whole time, Jessie`s abductor was just yards from Jessie`s home, according to police.

Let`s quickly go to CNN correspondent Susan Candiotti. She has been on the case since the get-go. Susan, is there a prosecution memo floating around?

CANDIOTTI: Yes. And again, this is what`s another heart-breaking aspect of this. We were just talking about how some of the people who had been living in that house that`s diagonally across the street from where the Lunsford home is and where Jessica`s body was later found buried.

According to this memo -- remember those people allegedly lied to authorities about admitting that they knew about John Couey, the suspect here. And quoting from the memo, quote, "Couey`s timeline of the events after he kidnapped Jessica Lunsford leaves open the possibility that she was alive and in the house at the time of the first and possibly the second interview. Had the defendant" -- in this case, they`re referring to Couey`s half sister -- "disclosed Couey`s presence in the house, the life of the girl might have been saved," end quote.

GRACE: Well, Susan Candiotti, all of your deductions earlier regarding where the girl may have been, the timeline, everything seems to be confirmed in the prosecution memo that you have just revealed to us.

The fact that the family of Couey was there, and there were several people living in the home, Susan. Not one of them had the guts to tell the cops? They had to know the little girl. This is a mobile home, for Pete`s sake. They had to know there was a little girl in there.

CANDIOTTI: Well, Couey himself, according to the same memo, has told authorities that he denies that anyone else in the house knew that he had kidnapped the child, he says or, quote, "that she was being held in the house." So Couey says no.

They have not charged anybody else with knowing that she had been kidnapped or knowing that he had the girl in the house. We do know that they didn`t say that he had left the area. Remember, this is a man who bought a bus ticket under an assumed name to skip town, allegedly. He wound up in Savannah, Georgia, remember, and the police actually caught up with him there.

GRACE: Yes.

CANDIOTTI: But because they didn`t have the kind of warrant that could hold him there, because apparently it only covered a particular radius on this probation violation, they had to let him go. And he wound up in Augusta, Georgia.

And again, just by luck, this is a man who had stayed at a Salvation Army, another homeless shelter there. And about two hours after he had left that shelter, the next morning, a worker at the shelter noticed that he had been there and then notified authorities. And they caught him right after he had already left before he left town.

GRACE: Susan, I have got 15 seconds left. There`s a town meeting tomorrow?

CANDIOTTI: There is, sponsored by, from what I understand, the Lion`s Club. They`re going to be asking authorities what can be done to prevent this kind of thing from happening in other matters.

GRACE: Susan Candiotti on the case from the get-go, thank you, friend.

As we go to break, we at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at this little boy, Chucky Mauk from Warner Robins, Georgia. Chuck went out on his bike one afternoon. A man in a car on the side of the road shot the boy, just 13. Here is the suspect`s composite.

If you have any information, dial this toll-free number, 1-888-813- 8389.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Renay San Miguel. Here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

The Roman Catholic Church and the rest of the world said a final farewell to Pope John Paul II today. The president, prime ministers and pilgrims from around the world filled St. Peter`s Square during the funeral mass. The College of Cardinals will soon begin electing a successor.

Suspected serial bomber Eric Rudolph has agreed to plead guilty in exchange for avoiding a possible death sentence. Rudolph is accused of the bombing at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, as well as three other attacks. He will face four life sentences instead.

Identity theft is one of the fastest-growing crimes. Now, a California medical group is alerting patients that their personal data may have been stolen during a break-in. The data includes names, addresses, confidential medical information and Social Security numbers. Police say there`s no evidence the data has been misused.

That`s the news for now. I`m Renay San Miguel. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

GRACE: Michael Jackson on trial for child molestation in a Santa Maria courthouse. Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace.

Let`s go straight out to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, bring me up-to-date, friend.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, another day of very dramatic testimony. Former Neverland housekeeper Adrian McManus wrapped up her testimony, grilled by Tom Mesereau, the defense attorney, for more than an hour. And then Michael Jackson`s former majordomo with a very thick French accent took the stand and told a very lurid story of alleged sexual molestation involving Michael Jackson and "Home Alone" star Macaulay Culkin.

GRACE: Man, you know, I was actually wondering if that was going to come out, because -- Elizabeth, do we have that bite of Macaulay Culkin? Can you play that, please?

Catch this, Jane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACAULAY CULKIN, ACTOR: Nothing happened, you know.

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Nothing?

CULKIN: I mean, nothing really. I mean, we played video games. You know, plays

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Sleep in the bed?

CULKIN: Even though they go, "Oh, you slept in the same bedroom as him." It`s like, I don`t think you understand. Michael Jackson`s bedroom is two stories, and it has like three bathrooms and this and that. So when I slept in his bedroom, yes, but you have to understand the whole scenario.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And not only that, Jane Velez-Mitchell, you hear that and I`m sure the jury will hear something like that to diffuse this testimony.

Elizabeth, can you throw up that graph for me of the chef`s testimony? You`re talking about the chef, right, Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The majordomo, in his words, glorified chef, perhaps.

GRACE: Oh, I`m sorry. I didn`t know majordomo meant glorified chef. But I got it now. I wonder if the jury knows what a majordomo is.

OK, hold on. Back to the graph. I`m sorry, Elizabeth.

Michael was playing with Macaulay Culkin at one of the games, which was "Thriller." And he was holding the kid because the kid was small and couldn`t hold the controls. Jackson`s left hand was inside the pants of the kid.

OK, Jim Moret, to you. Jim has also been in the courtroom along with Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jury response to that?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, it`s not unlike things that the jury has heard for the last few days. And remember, the jury has heard not only that Michael Jackson had his hand inside Macaulay`s pants, they have heard that he has kissed Macaulay Culkin, that he has kissed two or three other boys.

The problem, frankly, Nancy, with these witnesses, it`s almost like they`re a den of thieves. They`re all dirty. This particular witness, perhaps, was a bit stronger than the previous two, but that housekeeper was just a disaster for the prosecution, because she`s admitted to this jury that she has lied under oath in a deposition on that `93 case. She said nothing happened with Michael Jackson and any boy.

And when the lawyer, Tom Mesereau, said, "Well, how much of that deposition did you not tell the truth?" And she said, "Well, the whole thing. I lied." So, if you have witnesses who have admitted that they have lied before, then how is a prosecution -- can they say they`re telling the truth now? That`s the problem.

This particular majordomo, who`s basically a food preparer, and he gets a call at 3:00 in the morning. Michael Jackson wants French fries in the arcade. He goes to the arcade with the French fries. That`s where he sees Macaulay Culkin allegedly being molested by Michael Jackson. He tried to...

GRACE: Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait.

MORET: Yes?

GRACE: Jackson called for French fries at 3:00 am and got them?

MORET: Yes.

GRACE: All right. That, in itself, is wrong, but go ahead.

MORET: Well, this person tried to sell the story through a broker that the food preparer called a sleazy person. He tried to sell it for a half million dollars. He calls this other individual sleazy. Why? Because he took the story -- he taped a conversation and sold the story out from under him.

Every single person that the prosecution has brought up has either sold or tried to sell their story to tabloids. They have made money. They have sued Michael Jackson. Many of them have vendettas against him, if you believe the defense. So it`s a very problematic case.

GRACE: I`m going to go to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Boy, do we need a shrink tonight. She`s a psychoanalyst.

Thank you for joining us. We need you know more than ever. I can think of a lot of reasons why a maid that was making about $7 an hour working for a multi-millionaire, a music icon -- many people in this world believe Michael Jackson is a deity, a god-like creature.

DR. BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Right.

GRACE: I can understand why she didn`t come forward.

MARSHALL: I can understand why, too. Look, she was paid $7 an hour. She felt very vulnerable financially and she was probably terrified to tell on him.

But I think there`s another important factor here, and that is something that we call institutional sociopathy. It`s when one sociopath hires another, who hires another, who hires another. And pretty soon, a whole household or a whole company is run by people who are like-minded, who don`t have a conscience, and who don`t worry.

Look at Enron. There is institutional sociopathy there. And in this household, this bodyguard alleged saw Jackson performing fellatio on a young boy and didn`t tell on him.

In terms of Macaulay Culkin, I would wonder if something did happen would he be able to remember. Because the important thing to know about what it`s like for a child to be molested, when a child is molested, he actually feels a biological sensation of pleasure. But because he is a little kid, he doesn`t know that it`s merely biological.

So he blames himself, which then leads to confusion, which then leads to shame. And that leads to the wish to just repress the entire incident. And that`s why some of these kids don`t remember what happened. That`s why if Macaulay Culkin was molested, perhaps he doesn`t remember, and that`s why there`s so many gaps in the stories, in terms of the `94 accuser.

GRACE: Well, Bethany, you`re dead on. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CULKIN: The thing is, with Michael, is that he`s not very good at explaining himself. And he never really has been. Because he`s not a very social person. I mean, you`re talking about someone who has been sheltered and sheltering himself also for the last like 30 years, you know.

And so he is not very good at communicating to people and not very good at conveying what he is actually trying to say to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, Lisa Pinto -- Lisa is a veteran prosecutor -- you have handled child-molestation cases. And in my experience with them, it takes a lot to get a child to come forward. That`s a whole can of worms right there.

But what about all these allegations that all the witnesses against Michael Jackson, they`re all disgruntled, they`re all thieves, they`re all lying and Jackson is the only one telling the truth?

LISA PINTO, PROSECUTOR: So far, six people have told us similar stories, people who didn`t know each other, ten years apart, of a man who gifts, befriends vulnerable families, showers them with gifts, corners the kid, gets in a situation where they`re intimate, and then he starts fondling and groping them. That`s what`s alleged here.

Why? I don`t see this impeachment as being a successful as the colleagues on the defense would have us believe. These people, yes, they were making minimum wage. Yes, they were intimidated by Michael Jackson`s entourage. Yes, they wanted to make money off a civil suit. It doesn`t mean they didn`t see it happen.

Pairs of underwear at the bottom of the hot tub? When you see someone perform oral sex on a child, and you say that in 1990, and you say it again in 2005, that`s credible.

GRACE: You know, Renee Rockwell, when you have a person on trial for child molestation, and you have one similar transaction after the next, after the next, would you put Jackson on the stand?

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, you know, he has already been on the stand, essentially, because he has already made so many different media explanations and wanting to explain this and explain that.

I don`t know. I wouldn`t put him on the stand. I would just try pecking away at all these people, showing their improprieties, showing that they may be out for money.

But don`t forget what Adrian McManus did say when asked, in the four years that she worked there, did she ever -- and she was in charge of cleaning up his room -- did she ever see any women going in and out of Neverland to visit Michael? What did she say, Nancy?

GRACE: Not one.

ROCKWELL: Not one.

GRACE: I can tell you this much, Jane Velez-Mitchell, if the defense wants to win this case, they better get that register where you had to sign in to get into Neverland and show a lot of women dates coming in and out. It`s the only way. But I bet you there won`t be any.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Funny you should mention that. Because even though she didn`t see any women going into his room, her name was quoted in a tabloid story. And the headline read something like, "The Bedroom Kinky Secrets of Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie."

And she, of course, said on the stand that she was misquoted. But that`s one of the things that they`re able to do with these witnesses, is point out that they sold their stories to the tabloids. And in fact, in her case, there`s quotes of her from the tabloids.

GRACE: Wow, OK. We`ll be right back.

With us, Jane Velez-Mitchell and Jim Moret. They`ve been in the courtroom all day long in the Michael Jackson case. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CULKIN: It`s the because the same reason why he liked me, was the fact that I didn`t care who he was. That was the thing. I talked to him like he was a normal human being. Kids do that to him because he`s Michael Jackson, the pop singer, but he is not the god of -- you know, the king of pop or anything like that. He`s just, you know, a guy who is actually very kid-like himself and wants to go out there and he wants to play video games.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: My greatest inspiration comes from kids. Every song I right, every dance I do, all the poetry I write is all inspired from that level of innocence, that consciousness of purity. And children have that. I see God in the face of children. And man, I just love being around that all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Children inspired his every dance move. OK, let me soak that in just a moment.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Let`s go straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell and the latest in the Michael Jackson trial.

OK, Jane, we have the maid who I understand also stated part of her job was to clean the chimpanzee`s diapers? $7 an hour is not enough. How did that come in?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don`t expect people who have to clean monkey feces off the walls of your bedroom to be your friends. That`s the easiest way in the world to make enemies, or asking somebody to deliver French fries at 3:00 in the morning.

I mean, you get a sense that some of these people were humiliated in the course of doing their job, even though Michael Jackson has, on other occasions, shown a lot of generosity.

He had a pet monkey in his bedroom. And part of her job, she testified, was to clean up after this monkey, including feces on the walls. And the quote of the day was, "Sometimes monkeys get wild." That was one we were all repeating quite some time.

GRACE: OK, once again, you`ve left me speechless, Jane Velez- Mitchell.

Dr. Bethany Marshall, I had a series of questions about the evidence, but I have to go back to the shrink. Talk about living in, literally, Neverland.

MARSHALL: Right.

GRACE: You live with a monkey in your room that poopies on the wall. You order French fries at 3:00 a.m. and you get them?

MARSHALL: This is what I think about this. When you really think of the classic pedophile, the classic pedophile longs to return to childhood, because he believes if he can be back in childhood that he can recapture the feeling of being a loved child. That`s why he is preoccupied with theme parks and chimpanzees.

When a pedophile has sex with a child, he sees his own face in the face of the child. And he feels that he is giving the child the love he never got. But it`s perverse, it`s distorted and it`s very sick. And also, then you have the theme park. You have the chimp. You have all these things, because this is what the pedophile uses to groom his victims. I mean, what kid doesn`t like a chimpanzee, right?

GRACE: You know, speaking of grooming, what about it, Marc Klaas? You have dealt with so many child molestation victims and their families. But this, if the allegations are true, is the ultimate in grooming a child for molestation.

KLAAS: Well, you know, I mean, we have these -- we have this Martin Bashir interview with Michael Jackson, admitting that he has sex with children -- I`m sorry, admitting that he sleeps with children, that he has them sleeping with him in his bed. I mean, you take that, you put everything else in this pile. And if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, I think that it`s pretty clear what`s going on here.

GRACE: You know, you need to give the closing statement.

Lisa Pinto, final thought?

PINTO: Cases about pedophilia, tonight, Nancy, and I think particular disturbing as a parent for me to hear, not just as a lawyer and a former prosecutor, but as a parent, to think about the amount of vulnerable children out there.

And the issue is that we have to give teeth to Megan`s law. We can`t just let offenders get away with these things. We can`t let celebrities buy their way out of these situations.

GRACE: Well-put.

Lisa Wayne, final thought?

WAYNE: I think that Mesereau is making hay out of these witnesses. And at the end of the day, he`s going to look at this jury and he`s going to say, "Would you rely upon any of these people in matters of importance in your own life? Would you trust them? Would you go to the bank on them?" And that`s what proof beyond a reasonable doubt is about. And thank goodness that`s what it`s about.

GRACE: Lisa, you`re dead on, friend. But let me tell you something. They may call these witnesses on cross, but the witnesses are saying Jackson lives with a monkey that poops on the wall and orders French fries at 3 o`clock in the morning?

WAYNE: That`s not against the law.

GRACE: Has all these boy visitors? Talk about credibility.

WAYNE: No, that`s not good enough.

GRACE: Thank you, friend. I`m not surprised at your response. She is a veteran defense attorney, Lisa Wayne. Let`s switch gears.

As we all know, the Pope`s funeral today in Vatican City. With us, Philip Pullella, Reuters Vatican correspondent.

Philip, bring us up-to-date, friend.

PHILIP PULLELLA, REUTERS VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Nancy. Well, as the whole world knows, the Pope`s funeral took place in the square behind me and in the city behind me. And it was one of those historic events.

I mean, it was incredible even for someone who has covered the Pope for more than 20 years as I have. It was just one of those events that you will remember for the rest of your life as being historic. We have had hundreds of thousands of people in the square behind me, millions watching in other parts of the cities. It was very, very moving.

It really was a very fitting end to -- a very international, global end to what was the history`s first global papacy.

GRACE: Philip Pullella with Reuters has covered the Pope and the Vatican for about 25 years. He has traveled with the Pope around the world 75 times. He is an expert.

Did the Pope leave any instructions as to his funeral and burial?

PULLELLA: As far as the funeral and burial is concerned, he just said that he wanted to be buried underground in the crypts below St. Peter`s where about 60 popes are buried. There are sarcophaguses that are above- ground tombs, but he specified that he wanted to be buried in the ground with cold earth, as he put it, I believe, around him. So that was really the only specific request that was in his will.

However, his will and testament was more of a spiritual nature. And the curious thing, Nancy, is that he started writing it a year after he was elected pope. So he started writing it in 1979. As we know, he was elected in 1978. So even then, he had death on his mind.

And he wrote it kind of in installments over the course of the years. And the last installment was in the year 2000. In the year 2000, there is a little bit of debate about what he meant by a certain phrase in which he expressed some doubt about his ability to continue leading the church. And in that phrase, he asked God for guidance to be told how long he should continue.

Now, some people have read that as a possibility that he was thinking of resigning. One of the things to remember is that when the Pope was elected, his mentor, who was then Cardinal Stefan Wyszynski of Poland, told him on that day that he was elected in 1978 that you have been elected to lead the church into the third millennium. And he did so despite the frailty and Parkinson`s that he had.

GRACE: With us tonight from Vatican City, Philip Pullella with Reuters, an expert.

We are going to break. As we go to break, to "Trial Tracking": Eric Rudolph agreed to plead guilty to the `96 bombing of the Summer Olympics right here in Atlanta. He will also plead guilty to three other bombs, two abortion clinics and a nightclub. Sources say Rudolph will receive four life sentences for his crimes. By taking the guilty plea, Rudolph avoids the death penalty, which is what he gave an innocent police officer in a `98 bombing.

Local news next for some of you. Remember, we bring you the latest Michael Jackson coverage, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: To Philip Pullella with Reuters in Vatican City, thank you, friend.

What a week in America`s courtrooms and all around the world. Let`s stop just a moment. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Another bombshell in the Michael Jackson trial. A former Neverland security guard says he saw Jackson performing oral sex on a little boy. "Jackson grabbed my buttocks and kissed me while he put his tongue in my ear. I told him I didn`t like that, and Michael Jackson started to cry." Yes.

The kidnap and murder of a little five-year-old girl, Samantha Runnion horrified this nation. Alejandro Avila, now on trial for Samantha`s murder -- here`s the kicker -- another jury had just let Avila off on charges of double child molestation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You accused him of being coached, didn`t you? I can see it right here in black and white.

JOHN POZZA, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ALEJANDRO AVILA: Well, absolutely. That was absolutely one of our defenses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN RUNNION, MOTHER OF SAMANTHA RUNNION: I blame every juror who let him go, every juror who sat on that trial and believed this man over those little girls. I will never understand.

GRACE: Breaking news in the story of nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford. Tonight, it is suspected Jessica Lunsford was buried alive.

LUNSFORD: We need to prosecute him. And I need everybody`s support on pushing the death penalty upon this man. He is scum.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight.

But as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes.

Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for the week. I`ll see you right here, Monday night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Thomas Roberts. And here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

A Pakistani businessman has been charged with conspiracy for allegedly trafficking in nuclear detonators and testing equipment. Authorities are investigation whether he was working on behalf of Pakistan`s government. He could be sentenced to more than eight years in prison.

Snail mail, it could become more expensive. The U.S. Postal Service has filed for a 2-cent hike for first-class stamps, from 37 to 39 cents. It would take effect early next year. The last time postal rates went up was in 2002.

Federal officials say that Eric Robert Rudolph will not face the death penalty. The suspected serial bomber will plead guilty to a string of bombings, including the 1996 Olympic Park attack, and spend the rest of his life in prison.

We`re going to talk to CNN`s producer Henry Schuster, who`s been closely following that story. That and much more when Erica Hill joins me for "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT." We`ll bring that to you next.

END


Aired April 8, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, CNN HOST: Breaking news in the story of nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford tonight. Sources reveal the cause of death for this nine- year-old little girl, asphyxiation. And worse, it is suspected Jessica Lunsford was buried alive. We take you live to Florida for the latest in the Jessie Lunsford case.
We will also bring you the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. And we go live to Rome as cardinals converge to elect the new pope.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

In the Michael Jackson case, another former Jackson employee says he saw Jackson molesting one of the most famous child stars ever.

And breaking news tonight: Was Jessica Lunsford buried alive and still alive when police checked Couey`s home? Tonight, in Philadelphia, Marc Klaas. Marc`s daughter, Polly, kidnapped and killed. In Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell; in Denver, defense attorney Lisa Wayne; in L.A. psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall.

But first to Miami, Florida, with CNN`s Susan Candiotti.

Susan, what`s the latest, friend?

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, as if this case wasn`t tragic and sad enough, and now this. Sources close to the investigation tell us that it appears that Jessica Lunsford was, in fact, alive when John Couey, the alleged killer and kidnapper, buried her in the backyard behind the home where he had been living.

Now, the Citrus County sheriff`s office will not comment on this information. However, sources close to the investigation, law enforcement sources, plural, close to the investigation, do tell us that this is what Couey is saying.

However, they stress that, at this time, they have not been able to fully substantiate and confirm what his claims are because, in part, they are still waiting for the full autopsy report to be completed. And that is about three to four weeks away.

Initial reports already have indicated that Jessica died because of asphyxiation. We do know that much. But it`s important to remind our viewers of, again, the horror of this situation, remembering that after he allegedly kidnapped her, Couey told authorities that he took her practically right across the street, a home almost diagonally across the street from where the Lunsford home was, and kept her there for at least one or two days before he did away with her, allegedly -- Nancy?

GRACE: Oh, Susan. Susan Candiotti was with us throughout the search for little Jessica Lunsford. And it was a massive search, Susan. Didn`t cops go by John Evander Couey`s home during this time? Which says to me, Susan, I can deduce that Couey was there in the home hiding. That`s also what is being sourced tonight. But during that time, Jessica`s life could have been saved?

CANDIOTTI: Well, that appears to be a distinct possibility, according to sheriff`s office investigators themselves. Remember, too, it is also believed that she was sexually assaulted, as well, according to investigators.

What this new information is, it came out in the form of a memo from the prosecutor`s office. And what they`re saying is that, while they were swarming all over that neighborhood looking for Jessica, in fact, they were at that very house where Couey was, not once, but twice.

The first time -- rather, the second time, Couey told investigators in his confession, allegedly, that he was there at the time investigators stopped by. Apparently, the first time they were asking his half sister and other people who were staying there about Couey. He, apparently, wasn`t there. But they were simply canvassing the neighborhood.

The second time they said they went back was because they heard about some suspicious drug activity there, but the memo states that, at that time, they did not have enough information to conduct a search or to arrest anyone at that time.

GRACE: I want to go to Marc Klaas.

Marc, just when we thought it couldn`t get any worse, we discover that Jessie was, in fact, dead, that Jessie had, in fact, been molested, obviously, most likely, allegedly, by John Evander Couey. Now this.

What death could be worse? And not only that, Mark Klaas, the irony that cops were right there, that the girl was allegedly kept alive for two days under their nose. Think about it.

Marc, he didn`t have a car. Remember, he left town on a Greyhound bus. He didn`t have his own place. That girl was either hidden in there, in that home, or in somebody else`s vehicle when the cops came by.

And, Marc, I know you have read all the reports out. Some of the detectives referred to the people in his home as cracked-out druggies. What this girl, nine-years-old, went through before her death -- I wonder if she heard the cops come to the door, Marc.

MARC KLAAS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: You know, I have to ask myself how appropriate it is to release unsubstantiated information like this, given the impact that it will have on Jessica`s family. I mean, this is a horror that they will live with for the rest of their lives.

And I wouldn`t be surprised if this is going to be the thing that leads them over the edge -- certain members of this family over the edge into perhaps even insanity, given these facts.

Now, listen, we can`t second-guess law enforcement`s effort. Law enforcement did what they had to do. They went to that house two times. They didn`t have the information they needed to issue a search warrant.

However, I have to ask myself about these so-called search-and-rescue experts, these dog handlers that should have been able to track this girl 150 yards. Either they don`t know how to read the dogs or the dogs are absolutely useless.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute, though. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I get your drift. I agree with you.

But back to Susan Candiotti. Remember, Susan, when the dogs were called in, you and I were on-air together that night, remember? And they suddenly stopped the search within, I guess, a quarter mile of Couey and the girl`s home. The dogs clearly knew the child had not left the area. Remember when they sealed off that much of the area around the home?

CANDIOTTI: Well, the sheriff always stressed that he had a gut feeling that she was close to home, couldn`t quite pinpoint as to why that was, but he said he always had that feeling. And remember, they were, indeed, searching very hard.

I also want to make it perfectly clear, Nancy, that before we went with this information this night, we made sure that the family was informed of this information before we reported it on your broadcast tonight.

GRACE: Susan, I know, without you even telling me, that you would have taken care of that.

Here in the studio with me, a veteran defense attorney, Renee Rockwell. Marc Klaas was just defending the cops. And I agree with him, Renee. But here`s the kicker: The cops were canvassing the area. They had no reason to believe she was in there.

But what about -- and I`m quoting, "coked-out individuals," in the home? What charges, if any, are they facing if they knew that girl was in Couey`s possession?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Now, Nancy, you know in Florida now there is no charge that makes it a felony or even a misdemeanor to know that there is a sexual offender in your home and you`re not reporting it to the police.

I know that since this death of this precious little girl, that the sheriff has gone to the legislature and tried to make it a felony to harbor a sex offender. At that point, the police didn`t even know that he was there when they first went there because he was not registered as living in that area.

GRACE: ... in that spot.

ROCKWELL: What they did what they did a county-wide search to determine where all the sexual predators were. At that point, they went to the home where he was to be registered, noticed he wasn`t there.

GRACE: Susan Candiotti brought up the fact that she had made sure the family was aware of this information before it was made public tonight.

Take a listen to Jessie`s father, Mark Lunsford.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK LUNSFORD, FATHER OF JESSICA LUNSFORD: All my life, I have done nothing but raise kids and work. And this was my last job with Jessie, to raise her, and you took that away from me, Couey. And my father was lenient when he says that he has hope that God has mercy on your soul. I don`t feel that way. I hope you rot in hell, and I hope you get the death penalty. And I hope you can find it somewhere in you to be a man, and stand up and take your punishment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Susan Candiotti, the knowledge of Florida law that I have, this case, if these allegations are all true, there are multiple aggravating circumstances under which the state can seek the death penalty.

CANDIOTTI: Well, certainly, yes, especially when there is sexual abuse involving a minor. That, alone, under Florida law, does leave open that possibility.

But we must remind people as well that these people that were living in that house have been charged. They`re not, at this point, they`re charged with an obstruction charge. What we are quite right to point out, as the prosecution memo does, that there is currently no Florida statute that makes it a crime to lie about the whereabouts of a sexual offender or to lie, necessarily, about anything to a police officer. But they have been charged with an obstruction charge at this point.

GRACE: Well, Susan, are they behind bars or are they back home looking at their little traffic ticket for obstruction?

CANDIOTTI: I don`t know the answer to that. I don`t know if they posted bond.

GRACE: Well, you know, Susan, just when we thought the news couldn`t be any worse, just when we were getting some type of understanding of what became of Jessie Lunsford, tonight, everyone, Susan Candiotti is breaking the news that it is now believed, not only was Jessie Lunsford kept alive for several days after her disappearance by a sex offender -- you can only imagine what the little girl went through -- but that she may have been buried alive.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUNSFORD: I think they got him here real quickly, and we need to prosecute him. And I need everybody`s support on pushing the death penalty upon this man. He is scum. And anybody that acts like him or even resembles him is scum. And you do not deserve to be amongst us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUNSFORD: I`m not only a victim`s father. I`m his concerned father, and I`m a concerned grandparent.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Since the day this sweet-spirited nine-year-old was found, her dad has pushed lawmakers to fill loopholes John Couey fell through. John Couey skipped out on sex offender registration and he violated probation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you are a sexual predator or offender, and you think Florida is not going to be tough on you, think again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: It is a dark night for the Lunsford family tonight. They had just laid their little girl, Jessie, to rest when now sources confirm the possibility Jessie Lunsford, a nine-year-old little girl, was buried alive.

I know you remember the manhunt, the intense manhunt for this little girl. News outlets all over the country on alert, Amber Alerts. It did no good. And ultimately, the little girl was found just yards away from her home. Jessie Lunsford had been taken, apparently, by convicted sex offender John Evander Couey.

Let`s talk about forensics, guys. The word is tonight that this little girl was buried alive.

Now, let me quickly go to Lisa Wayne, defense attorney. Lisa, you`ve tried quite a few cases. The forensics in this case that could indicate the little girl was buried alive, number one, asphyxiation. You would have the peticia (ph) of the eye burst, which commonly happens. You could tell if somebody was manually strangled or if it was strangulation by ligature (ph). But how buried alive? What are your thoughts?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, there`s going to have to be some indication of struggle once she was buried. You know, when you keep talking about this, my heart is, and my hope is, like everybody out there, is that his statement is not reliable, that there are going to be things that he says that are exaggerated, embellished, that he has a mental illness that`s driven this, and that what he`s simply saying will not be true.

GRACE: That`s a good question, Lisa.

Let me throw that to Susan Candiotti. Susan, is a lot of this information coming from Couey`s own statement?

CANDIOTTI: Oh, yes. He is known to be a drug user, that`s for sure. And certainly, the sheriff has said that this man was in a drug haze.

And so we may never know, he had said, whether he kept her for -- he certainly believes that she was kept alive for at least a day and possibly more. But the sheriff himself has said that Couey was taking a lot of drugs at that time. And so these are his statements.

And that`s why it`s so important that they wait for the full results of the autopsy to be known, aside from the initial results of asphyxiation.

GRACE: Well, Susan, I have gone over it and over it in my mind. Where could he have kept the girl? She either had to be there in the mobile home or in somebody else`s car. He didn`t have a car.

CANDIOTTI: Well, we certainly do know that they collected a lot of evidence from among other rooms in the house, the bedroom where he had been staying in that house. So we have yet to learn if, in fact, that is where they will collect some important information...

GRACE: Yes.

CANDIOTTI: ... and, of course, whether they`re getting it from somewhere else, as well.

GRACE: Right, right. Susan, I think you`re right, that must have been where she was being concealed.

To Renee Rockwell, let`s talk about forensics. You have defended murder cases just as I have prosecuted them. What kind of forensics would go to show this child was buried alive, that that was her mode of death?

ROCKWELL: First of all, Nancy, I think that they would certainly test whether there were any kind of particles in her nostrils, whether there was any type of struggle, where they were test under her fingernails to see if she was clawing, scratching. And the reason is this so important because, Nancy, this, too, is another point that...

GRACE: Aggravating circumstance.

ROCKWELL: ... exactly, for a death penalty, as you see that the father well is pushing for.

GRACE: Yes, death by heinous mode, torture, all of those can add up to an aggravating circumstance equaling a death penalty.

Back to Renee Rockwell. I have been thinking about the forensics to show that this girl was asphyxiated, buried alive. And it brings to mind the first murder case I had which was a young woman who was asphyxiated. She had a plastic bag over her head, and she tried so hard to breathe that the plastic went up into her nostrils.

ROCKWELL: I think I...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And when I saw the autopsy picture, I had to drive to the morgue and ask them what was up the victim`s nostrils. And it was a plastic bag where she had struggled to breathe. And as you point out, I would expect to find either dirt, or a bag, or some substance up her nose, her mouth, in her lungs to show she was still alive, possibly cracked nails, struggling to get out, dirt under the fingernails, if she was in a bag, plastic to get out. What do you think?

ROCKWELL: Not only that, Nancy, but the fingernails to test if there was somebody else that might have been involved in this. Remember, several family members were there. And not only that, but certainly they`d be testing her blood to see if maybe she wasn`t in the house and possibly drugged. That`s all going to come out in the autopsy.

GRACE: I`m also wondering if cops were there when she was there. She had to be bound and subdued, had to be gagged in some way.

Quick break, everyone. As we go to break, you know the top story. Nine-year-old Jessie Lunsford possibly buried alive.

To "Trial Tracking": Another teacher arrested for allegedly having sex with students. Twenty-six-year-old high school teacher, Elizabeth Stow, allegedly had sex with not one, not two, but three, yes, three 17- year-old male students. Other students at Tulare Western High School in California told police Stow liked to party and was friendly with the boys. Maybe all the teachers need to be a little less hands on?

No trial date set yet, but we will keep you posted.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: You`re seeing a shot of a public memorial for Jessie Lunsford. The nine-year-old girl went missing out of her home in Homosassa, Florida. Her grandmother had tucked her in bed around 10:00 pm. The next morning, when her father went to wake her up, Jessie was gone. It launched one of the biggest manhunts in Florida history. And the whole time, Jessie`s abductor was just yards from Jessie`s home, according to police.

Let`s quickly go to CNN correspondent Susan Candiotti. She has been on the case since the get-go. Susan, is there a prosecution memo floating around?

CANDIOTTI: Yes. And again, this is what`s another heart-breaking aspect of this. We were just talking about how some of the people who had been living in that house that`s diagonally across the street from where the Lunsford home is and where Jessica`s body was later found buried.

According to this memo -- remember those people allegedly lied to authorities about admitting that they knew about John Couey, the suspect here. And quoting from the memo, quote, "Couey`s timeline of the events after he kidnapped Jessica Lunsford leaves open the possibility that she was alive and in the house at the time of the first and possibly the second interview. Had the defendant" -- in this case, they`re referring to Couey`s half sister -- "disclosed Couey`s presence in the house, the life of the girl might have been saved," end quote.

GRACE: Well, Susan Candiotti, all of your deductions earlier regarding where the girl may have been, the timeline, everything seems to be confirmed in the prosecution memo that you have just revealed to us.

The fact that the family of Couey was there, and there were several people living in the home, Susan. Not one of them had the guts to tell the cops? They had to know the little girl. This is a mobile home, for Pete`s sake. They had to know there was a little girl in there.

CANDIOTTI: Well, Couey himself, according to the same memo, has told authorities that he denies that anyone else in the house knew that he had kidnapped the child, he says or, quote, "that she was being held in the house." So Couey says no.

They have not charged anybody else with knowing that she had been kidnapped or knowing that he had the girl in the house. We do know that they didn`t say that he had left the area. Remember, this is a man who bought a bus ticket under an assumed name to skip town, allegedly. He wound up in Savannah, Georgia, remember, and the police actually caught up with him there.

GRACE: Yes.

CANDIOTTI: But because they didn`t have the kind of warrant that could hold him there, because apparently it only covered a particular radius on this probation violation, they had to let him go. And he wound up in Augusta, Georgia.

And again, just by luck, this is a man who had stayed at a Salvation Army, another homeless shelter there. And about two hours after he had left that shelter, the next morning, a worker at the shelter noticed that he had been there and then notified authorities. And they caught him right after he had already left before he left town.

GRACE: Susan, I have got 15 seconds left. There`s a town meeting tomorrow?

CANDIOTTI: There is, sponsored by, from what I understand, the Lion`s Club. They`re going to be asking authorities what can be done to prevent this kind of thing from happening in other matters.

GRACE: Susan Candiotti on the case from the get-go, thank you, friend.

As we go to break, we at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at this little boy, Chucky Mauk from Warner Robins, Georgia. Chuck went out on his bike one afternoon. A man in a car on the side of the road shot the boy, just 13. Here is the suspect`s composite.

If you have any information, dial this toll-free number, 1-888-813- 8389.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Renay San Miguel. Here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

The Roman Catholic Church and the rest of the world said a final farewell to Pope John Paul II today. The president, prime ministers and pilgrims from around the world filled St. Peter`s Square during the funeral mass. The College of Cardinals will soon begin electing a successor.

Suspected serial bomber Eric Rudolph has agreed to plead guilty in exchange for avoiding a possible death sentence. Rudolph is accused of the bombing at the 1996 Olympics in Atlanta, as well as three other attacks. He will face four life sentences instead.

Identity theft is one of the fastest-growing crimes. Now, a California medical group is alerting patients that their personal data may have been stolen during a break-in. The data includes names, addresses, confidential medical information and Social Security numbers. Police say there`s no evidence the data has been misused.

That`s the news for now. I`m Renay San Miguel. Now back to NANCY GRACE.

GRACE: Michael Jackson on trial for child molestation in a Santa Maria courthouse. Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace.

Let`s go straight out to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, bring me up-to-date, friend.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, another day of very dramatic testimony. Former Neverland housekeeper Adrian McManus wrapped up her testimony, grilled by Tom Mesereau, the defense attorney, for more than an hour. And then Michael Jackson`s former majordomo with a very thick French accent took the stand and told a very lurid story of alleged sexual molestation involving Michael Jackson and "Home Alone" star Macaulay Culkin.

GRACE: Man, you know, I was actually wondering if that was going to come out, because -- Elizabeth, do we have that bite of Macaulay Culkin? Can you play that, please?

Catch this, Jane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACAULAY CULKIN, ACTOR: Nothing happened, you know.

LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Nothing?

CULKIN: I mean, nothing really. I mean, we played video games. You know, plays

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Sleep in the bed?

CULKIN: Even though they go, "Oh, you slept in the same bedroom as him." It`s like, I don`t think you understand. Michael Jackson`s bedroom is two stories, and it has like three bathrooms and this and that. So when I slept in his bedroom, yes, but you have to understand the whole scenario.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And not only that, Jane Velez-Mitchell, you hear that and I`m sure the jury will hear something like that to diffuse this testimony.

Elizabeth, can you throw up that graph for me of the chef`s testimony? You`re talking about the chef, right, Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The majordomo, in his words, glorified chef, perhaps.

GRACE: Oh, I`m sorry. I didn`t know majordomo meant glorified chef. But I got it now. I wonder if the jury knows what a majordomo is.

OK, hold on. Back to the graph. I`m sorry, Elizabeth.

Michael was playing with Macaulay Culkin at one of the games, which was "Thriller." And he was holding the kid because the kid was small and couldn`t hold the controls. Jackson`s left hand was inside the pants of the kid.

OK, Jim Moret, to you. Jim has also been in the courtroom along with Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jury response to that?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, it`s not unlike things that the jury has heard for the last few days. And remember, the jury has heard not only that Michael Jackson had his hand inside Macaulay`s pants, they have heard that he has kissed Macaulay Culkin, that he has kissed two or three other boys.

The problem, frankly, Nancy, with these witnesses, it`s almost like they`re a den of thieves. They`re all dirty. This particular witness, perhaps, was a bit stronger than the previous two, but that housekeeper was just a disaster for the prosecution, because she`s admitted to this jury that she has lied under oath in a deposition on that `93 case. She said nothing happened with Michael Jackson and any boy.

And when the lawyer, Tom Mesereau, said, "Well, how much of that deposition did you not tell the truth?" And she said, "Well, the whole thing. I lied." So, if you have witnesses who have admitted that they have lied before, then how is a prosecution -- can they say they`re telling the truth now? That`s the problem.

This particular majordomo, who`s basically a food preparer, and he gets a call at 3:00 in the morning. Michael Jackson wants French fries in the arcade. He goes to the arcade with the French fries. That`s where he sees Macaulay Culkin allegedly being molested by Michael Jackson. He tried to...

GRACE: Wait a minute, wait, wait, wait.

MORET: Yes?

GRACE: Jackson called for French fries at 3:00 am and got them?

MORET: Yes.

GRACE: All right. That, in itself, is wrong, but go ahead.

MORET: Well, this person tried to sell the story through a broker that the food preparer called a sleazy person. He tried to sell it for a half million dollars. He calls this other individual sleazy. Why? Because he took the story -- he taped a conversation and sold the story out from under him.

Every single person that the prosecution has brought up has either sold or tried to sell their story to tabloids. They have made money. They have sued Michael Jackson. Many of them have vendettas against him, if you believe the defense. So it`s a very problematic case.

GRACE: I`m going to go to Dr. Bethany Marshall. Boy, do we need a shrink tonight. She`s a psychoanalyst.

Thank you for joining us. We need you know more than ever. I can think of a lot of reasons why a maid that was making about $7 an hour working for a multi-millionaire, a music icon -- many people in this world believe Michael Jackson is a deity, a god-like creature.

DR. BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Right.

GRACE: I can understand why she didn`t come forward.

MARSHALL: I can understand why, too. Look, she was paid $7 an hour. She felt very vulnerable financially and she was probably terrified to tell on him.

But I think there`s another important factor here, and that is something that we call institutional sociopathy. It`s when one sociopath hires another, who hires another, who hires another. And pretty soon, a whole household or a whole company is run by people who are like-minded, who don`t have a conscience, and who don`t worry.

Look at Enron. There is institutional sociopathy there. And in this household, this bodyguard alleged saw Jackson performing fellatio on a young boy and didn`t tell on him.

In terms of Macaulay Culkin, I would wonder if something did happen would he be able to remember. Because the important thing to know about what it`s like for a child to be molested, when a child is molested, he actually feels a biological sensation of pleasure. But because he is a little kid, he doesn`t know that it`s merely biological.

So he blames himself, which then leads to confusion, which then leads to shame. And that leads to the wish to just repress the entire incident. And that`s why some of these kids don`t remember what happened. That`s why if Macaulay Culkin was molested, perhaps he doesn`t remember, and that`s why there`s so many gaps in the stories, in terms of the `94 accuser.

GRACE: Well, Bethany, you`re dead on. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CULKIN: The thing is, with Michael, is that he`s not very good at explaining himself. And he never really has been. Because he`s not a very social person. I mean, you`re talking about someone who has been sheltered and sheltering himself also for the last like 30 years, you know.

And so he is not very good at communicating to people and not very good at conveying what he is actually trying to say to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, Lisa Pinto -- Lisa is a veteran prosecutor -- you have handled child-molestation cases. And in my experience with them, it takes a lot to get a child to come forward. That`s a whole can of worms right there.

But what about all these allegations that all the witnesses against Michael Jackson, they`re all disgruntled, they`re all thieves, they`re all lying and Jackson is the only one telling the truth?

LISA PINTO, PROSECUTOR: So far, six people have told us similar stories, people who didn`t know each other, ten years apart, of a man who gifts, befriends vulnerable families, showers them with gifts, corners the kid, gets in a situation where they`re intimate, and then he starts fondling and groping them. That`s what`s alleged here.

Why? I don`t see this impeachment as being a successful as the colleagues on the defense would have us believe. These people, yes, they were making minimum wage. Yes, they were intimidated by Michael Jackson`s entourage. Yes, they wanted to make money off a civil suit. It doesn`t mean they didn`t see it happen.

Pairs of underwear at the bottom of the hot tub? When you see someone perform oral sex on a child, and you say that in 1990, and you say it again in 2005, that`s credible.

GRACE: You know, Renee Rockwell, when you have a person on trial for child molestation, and you have one similar transaction after the next, after the next, would you put Jackson on the stand?

ROCKWELL: Well, Nancy, you know, he has already been on the stand, essentially, because he has already made so many different media explanations and wanting to explain this and explain that.

I don`t know. I wouldn`t put him on the stand. I would just try pecking away at all these people, showing their improprieties, showing that they may be out for money.

But don`t forget what Adrian McManus did say when asked, in the four years that she worked there, did she ever -- and she was in charge of cleaning up his room -- did she ever see any women going in and out of Neverland to visit Michael? What did she say, Nancy?

GRACE: Not one.

ROCKWELL: Not one.

GRACE: I can tell you this much, Jane Velez-Mitchell, if the defense wants to win this case, they better get that register where you had to sign in to get into Neverland and show a lot of women dates coming in and out. It`s the only way. But I bet you there won`t be any.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Funny you should mention that. Because even though she didn`t see any women going into his room, her name was quoted in a tabloid story. And the headline read something like, "The Bedroom Kinky Secrets of Michael Jackson and Lisa Marie."

And she, of course, said on the stand that she was misquoted. But that`s one of the things that they`re able to do with these witnesses, is point out that they sold their stories to the tabloids. And in fact, in her case, there`s quotes of her from the tabloids.

GRACE: Wow, OK. We`ll be right back.

With us, Jane Velez-Mitchell and Jim Moret. They`ve been in the courtroom all day long in the Michael Jackson case. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CULKIN: It`s the because the same reason why he liked me, was the fact that I didn`t care who he was. That was the thing. I talked to him like he was a normal human being. Kids do that to him because he`s Michael Jackson, the pop singer, but he is not the god of -- you know, the king of pop or anything like that. He`s just, you know, a guy who is actually very kid-like himself and wants to go out there and he wants to play video games.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: My greatest inspiration comes from kids. Every song I right, every dance I do, all the poetry I write is all inspired from that level of innocence, that consciousness of purity. And children have that. I see God in the face of children. And man, I just love being around that all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Children inspired his every dance move. OK, let me soak that in just a moment.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Let`s go straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell and the latest in the Michael Jackson trial.

OK, Jane, we have the maid who I understand also stated part of her job was to clean the chimpanzee`s diapers? $7 an hour is not enough. How did that come in?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Don`t expect people who have to clean monkey feces off the walls of your bedroom to be your friends. That`s the easiest way in the world to make enemies, or asking somebody to deliver French fries at 3:00 in the morning.

I mean, you get a sense that some of these people were humiliated in the course of doing their job, even though Michael Jackson has, on other occasions, shown a lot of generosity.

He had a pet monkey in his bedroom. And part of her job, she testified, was to clean up after this monkey, including feces on the walls. And the quote of the day was, "Sometimes monkeys get wild." That was one we were all repeating quite some time.

GRACE: OK, once again, you`ve left me speechless, Jane Velez- Mitchell.

Dr. Bethany Marshall, I had a series of questions about the evidence, but I have to go back to the shrink. Talk about living in, literally, Neverland.

MARSHALL: Right.

GRACE: You live with a monkey in your room that poopies on the wall. You order French fries at 3:00 a.m. and you get them?

MARSHALL: This is what I think about this. When you really think of the classic pedophile, the classic pedophile longs to return to childhood, because he believes if he can be back in childhood that he can recapture the feeling of being a loved child. That`s why he is preoccupied with theme parks and chimpanzees.

When a pedophile has sex with a child, he sees his own face in the face of the child. And he feels that he is giving the child the love he never got. But it`s perverse, it`s distorted and it`s very sick. And also, then you have the theme park. You have the chimp. You have all these things, because this is what the pedophile uses to groom his victims. I mean, what kid doesn`t like a chimpanzee, right?

GRACE: You know, speaking of grooming, what about it, Marc Klaas? You have dealt with so many child molestation victims and their families. But this, if the allegations are true, is the ultimate in grooming a child for molestation.

KLAAS: Well, you know, I mean, we have these -- we have this Martin Bashir interview with Michael Jackson, admitting that he has sex with children -- I`m sorry, admitting that he sleeps with children, that he has them sleeping with him in his bed. I mean, you take that, you put everything else in this pile. And if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, I think that it`s pretty clear what`s going on here.

GRACE: You know, you need to give the closing statement.

Lisa Pinto, final thought?

PINTO: Cases about pedophilia, tonight, Nancy, and I think particular disturbing as a parent for me to hear, not just as a lawyer and a former prosecutor, but as a parent, to think about the amount of vulnerable children out there.

And the issue is that we have to give teeth to Megan`s law. We can`t just let offenders get away with these things. We can`t let celebrities buy their way out of these situations.

GRACE: Well-put.

Lisa Wayne, final thought?

WAYNE: I think that Mesereau is making hay out of these witnesses. And at the end of the day, he`s going to look at this jury and he`s going to say, "Would you rely upon any of these people in matters of importance in your own life? Would you trust them? Would you go to the bank on them?" And that`s what proof beyond a reasonable doubt is about. And thank goodness that`s what it`s about.

GRACE: Lisa, you`re dead on, friend. But let me tell you something. They may call these witnesses on cross, but the witnesses are saying Jackson lives with a monkey that poops on the wall and orders French fries at 3 o`clock in the morning?

WAYNE: That`s not against the law.

GRACE: Has all these boy visitors? Talk about credibility.

WAYNE: No, that`s not good enough.

GRACE: Thank you, friend. I`m not surprised at your response. She is a veteran defense attorney, Lisa Wayne. Let`s switch gears.

As we all know, the Pope`s funeral today in Vatican City. With us, Philip Pullella, Reuters Vatican correspondent.

Philip, bring us up-to-date, friend.

PHILIP PULLELLA, REUTERS VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Nancy. Well, as the whole world knows, the Pope`s funeral took place in the square behind me and in the city behind me. And it was one of those historic events.

I mean, it was incredible even for someone who has covered the Pope for more than 20 years as I have. It was just one of those events that you will remember for the rest of your life as being historic. We have had hundreds of thousands of people in the square behind me, millions watching in other parts of the cities. It was very, very moving.

It really was a very fitting end to -- a very international, global end to what was the history`s first global papacy.

GRACE: Philip Pullella with Reuters has covered the Pope and the Vatican for about 25 years. He has traveled with the Pope around the world 75 times. He is an expert.

Did the Pope leave any instructions as to his funeral and burial?

PULLELLA: As far as the funeral and burial is concerned, he just said that he wanted to be buried underground in the crypts below St. Peter`s where about 60 popes are buried. There are sarcophaguses that are above- ground tombs, but he specified that he wanted to be buried in the ground with cold earth, as he put it, I believe, around him. So that was really the only specific request that was in his will.

However, his will and testament was more of a spiritual nature. And the curious thing, Nancy, is that he started writing it a year after he was elected pope. So he started writing it in 1979. As we know, he was elected in 1978. So even then, he had death on his mind.

And he wrote it kind of in installments over the course of the years. And the last installment was in the year 2000. In the year 2000, there is a little bit of debate about what he meant by a certain phrase in which he expressed some doubt about his ability to continue leading the church. And in that phrase, he asked God for guidance to be told how long he should continue.

Now, some people have read that as a possibility that he was thinking of resigning. One of the things to remember is that when the Pope was elected, his mentor, who was then Cardinal Stefan Wyszynski of Poland, told him on that day that he was elected in 1978 that you have been elected to lead the church into the third millennium. And he did so despite the frailty and Parkinson`s that he had.

GRACE: With us tonight from Vatican City, Philip Pullella with Reuters, an expert.

We are going to break. As we go to break, to "Trial Tracking": Eric Rudolph agreed to plead guilty to the `96 bombing of the Summer Olympics right here in Atlanta. He will also plead guilty to three other bombs, two abortion clinics and a nightclub. Sources say Rudolph will receive four life sentences for his crimes. By taking the guilty plea, Rudolph avoids the death penalty, which is what he gave an innocent police officer in a `98 bombing.

Local news next for some of you. Remember, we bring you the latest Michael Jackson coverage, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: To Philip Pullella with Reuters in Vatican City, thank you, friend.

What a week in America`s courtrooms and all around the world. Let`s stop just a moment. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Another bombshell in the Michael Jackson trial. A former Neverland security guard says he saw Jackson performing oral sex on a little boy. "Jackson grabbed my buttocks and kissed me while he put his tongue in my ear. I told him I didn`t like that, and Michael Jackson started to cry." Yes.

The kidnap and murder of a little five-year-old girl, Samantha Runnion horrified this nation. Alejandro Avila, now on trial for Samantha`s murder -- here`s the kicker -- another jury had just let Avila off on charges of double child molestation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You accused him of being coached, didn`t you? I can see it right here in black and white.

JOHN POZZA, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR ALEJANDRO AVILA: Well, absolutely. That was absolutely one of our defenses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN RUNNION, MOTHER OF SAMANTHA RUNNION: I blame every juror who let him go, every juror who sat on that trial and believed this man over those little girls. I will never understand.

GRACE: Breaking news in the story of nine-year-old Jessica Lunsford. Tonight, it is suspected Jessica Lunsford was buried alive.

LUNSFORD: We need to prosecute him. And I need everybody`s support on pushing the death penalty upon this man. He is scum.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight.

But as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting us into your homes.

Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for the week. I`ll see you right here, Monday night, 8 o`clock sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.

THOMAS ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, everybody. I`m Thomas Roberts. And here`s your "Headline Prime Newsbreak."

A Pakistani businessman has been charged with conspiracy for allegedly trafficking in nuclear detonators and testing equipment. Authorities are investigation whether he was working on behalf of Pakistan`s government. He could be sentenced to more than eight years in prison.

Snail mail, it could become more expensive. The U.S. Postal Service has filed for a 2-cent hike for first-class stamps, from 37 to 39 cents. It would take effect early next year. The last time postal rates went up was in 2002.

Federal officials say that Eric Robert Rudolph will not face the death penalty. The suspected serial bomber will plead guilty to a string of bombings, including the 1996 Olympic Park attack, and spend the rest of his life in prison.

We`re going to talk to CNN`s producer Henry Schuster, who`s been closely following that story. That and much more when Erica Hill joins me for "PRIME NEWS TONIGHT." We`ll bring that to you next.

END