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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for April 13, 2005, CNNHN

Aired April 13, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight on NANCY GRACE, imagine heading home later after work and then spotting blue police lights in your rear-view window. Wouldn`t you pull over? I would. And that`s what James Gottlieb did. And it cost him his life.
I don`t know about you, but I grew up learning that you obey the men and women in uniform, the men and women in blue. But how do you know if the cop pulling you over isn`t a fake? That`s just exactly what happened to murder victim James Gottlieb this January.

And now, let`s meet Mr. Gottlieb`s widow. Elizabeth is with us.

But first, a recreation of what happened the night James lost his life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening. It`s 36 degrees and it`s snowing at 7 o`clock. On this Wednesday, January 5, I`m Kathryn Smith, (ph) and here`s what`s happening.

GRACE (voice-over): What was happening for James Gottlieb that snowy night was just a typical drive home from work. Suddenly, flashing lights in the rear-view mirror. He`s being pulled over. Like any law-abiding citizen, he complies. The SUV pulls up behind, a man gets out, walks toward Gottlieb`s car. Obeying, Gottlieb rolls down the window.

Then things went horribly wrong, Gottlieb in the fight for his life. A struggle, shots are fired. He fights to stay alive, to see his wife, his children, again at home, where he belongs, just blocks away. He never made it home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: With me here in the studio is Elizabeth Gottlieb, James` widow.

Thank you for being with us.

ELIZABETH GOTTLIEB, WIDOW OF JAMES GOTTLIEB: Thank you.

GRACE: When you see that reenactment, when you see that street, what do you think?

GOTTLIEB: It sends shivers through me. I can just imagine what happened that night. I go over it and over it in my mind. I drive past there a lot. And every time I drive past there, I can`t help but think about it.

I couldn`t be there with him. I can imagine his struggle. I can imagine him bleeding. And it just terrifies me.

GRACE: You know, when I think about Mr. Gottlieb, James Gottlieb, I think about the moment when he saw the blue lights, the moment when, by instinct, by training, we pull over, and then him dying there in that car, probably wanting to be with you, probably wanting to speak to you.

How are your kids? How are your children doing?

GOTTLIEB: They can`t get over the loss, especially my daughter, who is eight. She misses her dad terribly, and she doesn`t want to cry. And when she does cry, she`s afraid she`s going to make me cry. And I have to try to get it out of her and cheer her up.

She`s OK when she goes to school, I suppose, but every time we`re in the house, we think about him. Every time we drive around the neighborhood, we think about him. And we`ve seen a lot of things on the news, and we`ve seen a lot of things in the papers, and it just makes it vivid in our minds.

GRACE: How does your little girl -- she`s eight, right?

GOTTLIEB: Yes.

GRACE: How does she react when she sees the defendant in the paper?

GOTTLIEB: She says, "Mommy, cover his picture. I don`t want to look at him." She can`t stand to see him, and she gets angry. "Why did you do that to my father?"

GRACE: On Valentine`s Day, your daughter was very unhappy.

GOTTLIEB: Well, fortunately, her father had purchased something ahead of time. And she was able to be cheered up a little bit, because I gave it to her that morning and said, "This is from Dad." But tears came to her eyes anyway. She said, "No, I`m never going to see him again."

GRACE: And you have two other children, right?

GOTTLIEB: Ryan is 16, and James is 18. James is in college right now. So he`s sort of away from it. But he calls me, and he`s concerned. And I can hear it in his voice that he`s very angry, and he`s very upset, and he just feels so much that he`s missing his father.

And Brian, the same. He doesn`t tend to show it often, but he really remembers all the things his father did with him, and taught him, and the good and the bad times. And it`s left a terrible hole in our life.

GRACE: What happened in your life that night?

GOTTLIEB: Well, I thought that he was a little bit late. And I started getting nervous, wondering. And we called. I had my sons call. I had them call the bank. Of course, he had left from the bank.

I called his cell phone. We didn`t get any answers. And finally, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but I said, "Let`s go. I want to see if something happened to him along the way."

GRACE: Did you just feel that something was wrong?

GOTTLIEB: I felt something was wrong. And I said, "Let`s go look for him." I didn`t know where the branch was exactly. But Brian had been there with his father.

So we started to drive, and my daughter was in the car, also. And then we came upon the scene. And I said, "No, this is not -- this can`t be anything to do with us."

GRACE: You mean, you just saw his car?

GOTTLIEB: I saw his car. And I wasn`t sure it was his car. And I frantically tried to find out, get a closer look, and ask around, and find out. And some people on the side of the road said that they heard someone was murdered.

And then I said -- I was falling apart. And I went back in my car, and I said, "Brian, go around the other way. It looks like your father`s car." I looked again. And then I sent him to look, because we didn`t want to believe that it was the car.

And my husband, nowhere to be found, doors open on all the houses, people all around, police tape, lights and everything. And then when my son said it looks like the car, but there`s a lot of cars that look like that, I got out. I said, "Wait here with your sister." I had to find a police officer.

And I just came across someone in the street. I said, "Is that a Mercury Mystique?" And I fell apart at that point, because they had told me, and he didn`t make it. I mean, I wanted to believe that maybe he just had gotten hurt and he was alive in the hospital or something, but those weren`t the words that I heard.

My son, Brian, and I went to the hospital. The detectives took us there. And then my brother, who had called in the meantime, came by, also. And when my sister got to my house, my other son came to the hospital.

GRACE: Even when you were on your way to the hospital, did you still believe maybe he was still alive, you could get there, there was a mistake?

GOTTLIEB: Not at that point.

GRACE: You knew?

GOTTLIEB: I knew, because they had explained that there was a shooting. And I really don`t remember exactly the words that they said, but I knew that he didn`t make it. And when I got to the hospital, they said that he was alive when he got there. He was somewhat responsive in the ambulance. And they tried to keep him alive, and they did for a little bit, but he lost too much blood.

GRACE: With me tonight is James Gottlieb`s widow, Elizabeth. She`s recounting the night her husband was murdered. Why? Because he pulled over when he thought a cop car turned its siren. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE JOURNALIST: Reggie, why did you have to kill him, man?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Nassau police it was an anonymous tip that led investigators to this man, 31-year-old Reginald Gousse whom cops say is the police impersonator who was driving this red Ford Expedition when he pulled over HSBC bank manager James Gottlieb last month in Franklin Square and demanded his keys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. I`m Nancy Grace.

Right now, let`s go out to WABC reporter, Lauren DeFranco.

Hi, Lauren. What`s the latest?

LAUREN DEFRANCO, WABC REPORTER: Hi, Nancy. Well, as you know, 31- year-old Reginald Gousse was arrested. He was brought into custody by Nassau County police. He pled not guilty at his arraignment.

GRACE: Here in the studio with me is Detective Sergeant, with the homicide bureau at Nassau police, Dennis Barry.

Detective, welcome. What cracked the case?

DENNIS BARRY, DETECTIVE, NASSAU COUNTY: The key to this case was that tip that we received from the public. About 10 days in to the case, we got that call that we were looking for. And in large part, it was due to the intense media coverage that existed over that week and a half after the murder.

An individual called up, and just anonymously at the time, and I`ll get to that later, said, "You have to take a look at a guy by the name of Reginald Gousse." We got some information. We wound up digging a little deeper. And what we found with respect to Reginald Gousse was that this was an individual, back in 1998, had been arrested for doing something virtually identical.

GRACE: You know, what`s killing me, Detective, is this judge, Judge Mary Lou Robinson. Are you listening, Judge? Because you let this guy slip through your fingers. And here he is, free to roam the streets amongst innocent people.

Explain, Detective.

BARRY: What had happened back on August 14, 2004, Reginald Gousse was down in Amarillo, Texas, and he was stopped...

GRACE: He gets around, doesn`t he?

BARRY: He gets around, is right. He was stopped by the state troopers down there for speeding. Once the trooper had him stopped, he wound up suspecting that he may be trafficking in drugs and called for a K- 9 dog to search his car.

Twenty five minutes later, that K-9 dog arrived at the scene. The dog searches the exterior of the car and signals to the officer that there`s probable cause to believe there are drugs in the car. Based upon that, they conducted a search of the vehicle.

GRACE: And they found?

BARRY: They didn`t find any drugs, but what they did find was a nine- millimeter weapon in the car. They found a police uniform. They found a police shield. They found a police placard. They found this rental vehicle that he had rented two days earlier at JFK airport had been rigged with a red light and siren.

GRACE: Mrs. Gottlieb, when you hear this, what do you think? This judge let him slip through her fingers, let him off on a technicality. That`s why he met up with your husband.

GOTTLIEB: I just want to say to her, "Look what you did to us. You let this guy go, and he victimized other people." I know that -- I realize there`s a legal system, and people have rights and whatever, but it shouldn`t have happened, that he got out.

GRACE: If this judge let him slip through her fingers, as I believe she did, she is partially to blame for what has happened.

Detective, you just mentioned he had all this police paraphernalia. I want to show them this. Take a look at this. Anybody can order police -- what would you say -- paraphernalia? And here especially, you can even get a police badge. Check it out, $42.99, police badge. Incredible. Why?

BARRY: The Internet makes it even more accessible to the public. Now they can...

GRACE: Hey, you don`t even have to have a computer. You don`t have to have computer skills to do this. Explain.

BARRY: It`s one of the things police officers across the country have been fighting for years, trying to crack down on the sale of police equipment, police badges to people that are not certified law enforcement officials.

GRACE: You know what`s incredible to me, Lauren DeFranco, and I`m grateful for it, is that the detective says that, by so much coverage, someone called in an anonymous tip. Just how much coverage was there of the Gottlieb murder?

DEFRANCO: Well, Nancy, there was a lot of coverage right from the very start, because this was a crime that could really happen to anyone. This put fear into the heart of the community. People were afraid to pull over for police, specifically undercover cops.

So we kept it out there. We kept it alive, because we wanted to help Mrs. Gottlieb. And by the way, my heart goes out to Elizabeth Gottlieb.

GRACE: Mrs. Gottlieb, there has been such an outpouring of love, and affection, and concern, and support for you. And I know you`re grateful but, you know, when you wake up in the middle of the night, and you put your foot over there, there`s nobody there. I mean, what keeps you going?

GOTTLIEB: I just have to think of the good times. And I have my sons and my daughter to carry on the family. And we`ll have to stick together. And I know that this guy is in custody, and that helps me. If he`s off the street and he gets put away, it helps me.

GRACE: You know, his defense lawyer, who was a pretty high-profile lawyer, Martin Geduldig, he says the state has no case against Gousse.

GOTTLIEB: I didn`t like hearing that. I`m sure that we have enough evidence. I don`t know what we have. I don`t want to know what we have. I want it to come out when it has to come out. I`m sure that the police have done their job and will put him away.

GRACE: How long were you two together?

GOTTLIEB: Oh, well, we would have been married 25 years. And in May, we were going to celebrate our anniversary. And we actually knew each other long than that, 26 years, I guess.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN GEDULDIG, LAWYER FOR REGINALD GOUSSE: I don`t believe they have a confession. I don`t think they have a murder weapon. I don`t think they have any fingerprints. I don`t believe they have any DNA. I don`t think they have an eyewitness. It`s a case based on past history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We`ll see about that. Welcome back to NANCY GRACE. Thank you for being with us tonight. Let`s go straight to the defense attorney in this case, Martin Geduldig.

Thank you for being with us, sir. Is your guy a U.S. citizen?

MARTIN GEDULDIG, LAWYER FOR REGINALD GOUSSE: He`s from Haiti originally, came here as a very young boy, 8 or 9 years of age.

GRACE: Now, this guy has done jail time in America, right?

GEDULDIG: I believe that`s the case.

GRACE: And he`s not a U.S. citizen?

GEDULDIG: I don`t think so. He may have citizenship on...

GRACE: You must be a magician. My hats off to you, because somehow this guy has not been deported back to Haiti. Now, how is that?

GEDULDIG: Well, I have only represented him on this case, so I can`t speak about why he`s still here or any of his past cases. So I don`t know the answer to that. I`m only representing him...

GRACE: OK, I`ll be right back with you.

Detective, why is he still here? He pled guilty to a felony, for Pete`s sake, and get hard jail time?

BARRY: He pled guilty to a felony. And they made a deal with the devil. Back in 1998, what he did, he goes out and he stole, at gunpoint, a Crown Victoria. He rigs that car with red light and siren. He goes out and he obtains a weapon illegally.

And on May 20, 1998, a night manager from the Staples Store on Van Wyck Expressway in Jamaica is coming out and he finds that his tires have been slashed. He`s fixing the tire when up into the parking lot pulls a car with a red light and siren.

GRACE: And let me guess, it`s the defendant.

BARRY: And he says, "Thank goodness. It`s a cop come to help me." It was his worst nightmare. Reggie Gousse pulls up, pulls a gun on him, handcuffs him, duck-tapes him, takes him back to an apartment in Jamaica. And at that point, he forces him to give up keys to the store, the alarm code and the combination to the safe.

GRACE: Did he go back and rob the store?

BARRY: He gets a U-Haul.

GRACE: Oh, good lord.

BARRY: He goes back to the store and he is unloading the contents of the store into the U-Haul when a police officer on patrol sees this, realizes this shouldn`t be happening at this time, goes up, stops, questions him, and pulls...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Now, this was in 19...

BARRY: This is in 1998.

GRACE: He pled guilty. He goes behind bars. Why is he out?

BARRY: He goes into Rikers. And while he`s in Rikers, he`s cellmates with an individual by the name of George Bell. George Bell was in there for shooting an off-duty police officer, Charles Davis. He winds up getting a jail house confession from Bell, testifies for the prosecution...

GRACE: And gets out?

BARRY: ... in the case against bell. They work a deal. And he serves five years. He fought deportation. And because of the intervention of the Queens district attorney`s office, he remains in this country.

GRACE: He got out.

Here in the studio with me is psychologist Caryn Stark. Caryn, why the impersonation? What motivates someone to pretend?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: This is a grown man who has no authority in the world, Nancy. And so...

GRACE: But you want me to feel sorry for him? Is that where you`re headed?

STARK: No, but I think that we could understand his need to impersonate a cop to give himself this...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: No, I don`t understand it.

STARK: That`s what it`s about for a criminal when they do that. And a lot of them do. It gives them their own feeling of authority, their own need for authority, power, even though it`s not true.

GRACE: Caryn?

STARK: Yes, Nancy?

GRACE: I understand dressing up like a cop to get authority, but getting a U-Haul and looting a Staples, pulling Mr. Gottlieb over?

STARK: Well, nobody`s saying he knows what he`s -- smart in what he`s doing. Although, he`s a good stalker. And he does seem to figure out who his victim should be.

GRACE: You know, Elizabeth, the whole thing was him trying to get the keys to the bank. Do you think that?

GOTTLIEB: I know. I definitely think that. The car was running. I got there. The lights were on the car when I saw it.

And I was hoping it wasn`t his car. My house key was on the car key ring. If he wanted other keys, he would have taken those, and he would have taken the car, or whatever else.

GRACE: And your daughter lived in fear until he was caught, afraid he may have the house key and come to the house?

GOTTLIEB: She definitely did. And she`s still in fear.

GRACE: What would she say?

GOTTLIEB: She said, "I`m scared, Mommy. He could come here. What`s going to happen?"

GRACE: Let me go back out to defense attorney Martin Geduldig. What is your defense going to be at trial?

GEDULDIG: Well, let me first say that the detective mentioned that a deal was made with the devil. The devil in this case was the government. They did the deal with my client so that he could stay in the country.

GRACE: Oh, I like that strategy. Blame the government.

GEDULDIG: Well, it is -- the way you`ve been talking, it is the government`s fault that he`s still here. And they make those deals all the time.

GRACE: Is it the government`s fault that he shot Mr. Gottlieb?

GEDULDIG: Well, if the government -- you were blaming the judge for not having arrested him in Amarillo, Texas. If the government had acted the way they should have, then he should have been deported, and according to you, we wouldn`t have had this incident.

But my defense is quite simply that he`s not guilty of this crime. This so-called tip that they got is an individual that`s well-known. His name has appeared in the newspaper. He`s a lawyer. He represented Bell, the fellow that they claim Gousse gave information against.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So it`s all come home to roost? Ouch.

Let`s go to Lisa Wayne, standing by. Lisa, what is the defense up against here?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, the bottom line is that you want to make sure you have the right guy. This is an identification case. There appears to not be any physical evidence that`s going to incriminate this guy. And it`s simply an identification case.

So Mrs. Gottlieb wants to make sure. The public wants to make sure this is the right guy. And I think that`s the kind of defense you`re going to mount in this kind of case.

GRACE: So they`re going to attack the eyewitnesses, Lisa Pinto?

LISA PINTO, PROSECUTOR: They`ve gave a very specific physical description here of 5`10", medium-build black man with short-cropped hair. And guess what? There were several lineups in this case where both eyewitnesses and victims identified Martin`s client.

And I`m sure that if Martin wasn`t present at these lineups, then the prior lawyer was. So for him to stand at a press conference and say, "Oh, gee, they have no case here," that`s just sheer puffery. They have witnesses, they have eyewitnesses, they have a man who had a gun at his home, a 9-millimeter gun. We learned he had a gun in his car earlier. I mean, the state`s case is overwhelming here.

WAYNE: But the prosecutor knows that that`s not true, because we know that jurors do not want to convict on eyewitness testimony alone. It`s unreliable, it`s suggestive, and it`s not good enough. And if that`s all the case that they have in this situation, this man is going to be found not guilty.

GRACE: OK, guys. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I`m hearing the oldest story in the book, discredit the eyewitness. Next thing I know, Lisa Wayne, you and Martin Geduldig, are going to say, "Were they wearing glasses that night?"

As we go to break, I want to remind you that here at NANCY GRACE we want very much to solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, we look for any and all tips relating to 25-year-old Lacy Ferguson, killed by a drive-by shooter in Modesto, California, August 24, 2003.

If you have any information regarding Lacy Ferguson, place contact the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation, toll-free, 888-813-8389. There could be a reward involved regarding Lacy Ferguson. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening. It`s 36 degrees and it`s snowing at 7:00. On this Wednesday, January 5, I`m Katherine Smith (ph). And here`s what`s happening.

GRACE (voice-over): What was happening for James Gottlieb, that snowy night was just a typical drive home from work. Suddenly, flashing lights in a rear view mirror. He`s being pulled over. Like any law-abiding citizen, he complies. The SUV pulls up behind. A man gets out, walks towards Gottlieb`s car.

Obeying, Gottlieb rolls down the window. Then, things went horribly wrong, Gottlieb in a fight for his life, a struggle. Shots are fired. He fights to stay alive, to see his wife, his children again at home, where he belongs, just blocks away. He never made it home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Welcome back.

Thanks for being with us. As you know, James Gottlieb simply pulled over after a long day of work as a local bank manager when he saw a cop pull up behind him. Well, as you know by now, nothing is as it appears.

With us is Mr. Gottlieb`s widow, Elizabeth Gottlieb.

You`ve been going to court every time there has been a court appearance. Has he been there, the defendant?

ELIZABETH GOTTLIEB, WIDOW OF JAMES GOTTLIEB: I went to the arraignment. He was at the arraignment. And I was maybe eight or 10 feet away from him, staring at his back.

He walked in. He didn`t turn to us. He walked out. He didn`t turn his head. And it just gave me the shivers to even be in a room with him. And the next court appearance, part nine, he didn`t come out. And I kind of wanted for him to see me, because I feel every time he sees me or he sees somebody from my family, maybe it will make him think. Maybe it will give him a wakeup. Maybe he`ll come clean with what he did.

GRACE: Do you really think he will come clean?

GOTTLIEB: I can only hope. I doubt it. I seriously doubt it, but he`s -- he`s -- at least maybe he could think a little bit more about what he did.

GRACE: Question to you, Detective.

How many of these offenses do you think Gousse has pulled off?

DET. SGT. DENNIS BARRY, NASSAU COUNTY: We have him identified in no less than five similar cases. And the pattern is identical in each and every one of these.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But there haven`t been five murders.

BARRY: There haven`t been five murders, but in each of these five cases, he stalks his victim, posing as a police officer. He handcuffs them. He takes them back to an establishment, forces them to divulge the information to gain access to the premises, tries to gain access to the safe.

GRACE: But why was this case different? Why did Mr. Gottlieb have to die?

BARRY: One of the things that was very telling when we spoke to Reginald Gousse, we asked him, Reggie, why do you handcuff your victims? And he looked us in the eye and he said, this way, they can`t hurt me and I don`t have to hurt them.

GRACE: Martin Geduldig, defense attorney for Mr. Gousse, charged in the murder of James Gottlieb, is with us tonight. He says the state has no hard proof in the case.

How do you plan, Martin, to keep out the similar transactions, in other words, the other offenses the state believes your guy has committed?

MARTIN GEDULDIG, ATTORNEY FOR GOUSSE: Well, the first thing they have to do is establish that he committed the crime charged.

When I said before they had no eyewitnesses on that tape that you showed, I was talking about a witness to the actual commission of the murder of Mr. Gottlieb. They have no witnesses to that. They have no -- as I said then, they have no DNA. They have no confession. In fact, they had Mr. Gousse in custody for two days, trying to get him to give a statement, a confession that he committed this crime.

During that two-day period, they threatened and later did arrest his fiancee. They threatened to arrest his mother. They did all kinds of things during a 48-hour period to get him...

GRACE: Right. My question to you was, how do you plan to keep out these similar transactions when this comes to trial, these other five offenses the detective is alleging?

GEDULDIG: Well, one of the things that I intend to raise is the fact that he may have committed other crimes that are unrelated to the crime he`s charged with. It doesn`t necessarily prove the crime that he`s charged with. They`re trying to convict this man for crimes that are not charged in this indictment.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Do you think that you will be able to keep out the similar transactions, the other offenses that are similar to this?

GEDULDIG: I think I might be able to do that.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: All right.

Let me go quickly to Caryn Stark.

You know, Caryn, why bother to pretend you`re a cop? Why not just pull up at the red light and carjack the car?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it makes people be much more trusting, Nancy. They`re more inclined. Except for our one victim here, they`re more inclined to say, OK, and listen. And people bow to authority. The difference here is that he actually fought back. He was more like a hero. And, unfortunately for him, he shouldn`t have done that.

GRACE: When you think about your husband under these circumstances, what do you think he did? Would he allow himself to be handcuffed?

GOTTLIEB: No. No. I believe he asked for identification. And when he wasn`t given any, then he started to struggle.

And he probably put up a good fight and tried to get away. I don`t know how the gun went off or anything like that, but I`m very, very thankful that he was able to describe the person who attacked him and the circumstances around it. When I read about it and I read, someone shot me, it just -- I can`t even -- I don`t even like to think about it.

GRACE: When you read what he told the police?

GOTTLIEB: I`m just thankful he was able -- he wasn`t shot dead. He was able to say something about the attacker.

GRACE: Lauren DeFranco with WABC is with us.

Lauren, what exactly do you believe he was able to tell police before he passed away?

LAUREN DEFRANCO, WABC REPORTER: Well, basically, Nancy, he helped police solve this case. He told them, I was shot. He told them about the keys. He told them that this man wanted the keys, and police were able to track this man down through the last words of Mr. Gottlieb.

GRACE: You know, Lisa Wayne, as a defense attorney, you would likely try to keep out a dying declaration under the hearsay rule.

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: Do you expect that to happen at trial? And how does that work or not work?

WAYNE: Well, you are going to try to keep that out, because what you`re going to say is that it lacks trustworthiness, that, in fact, that perhaps that`s not what he meant, the context of what`s going on. The description was untrustworthy. It was unreliable.

But the bottom line is, it probably will come out.

GRACE: Because?

WAYNE: A dying declaration, because the courts view that, that that statement is reliable, because there`s not the motive there to lie or to make something up in your dying words, that there`s a trustworthiness to that. So, most defense lawyers are going to look at that and say, hey, that`s coming in. I know I`m going to have to deal with that and how am I going to fashion that into my defense and make it favorable for me?

Because it may not be that bad.

GRACE: Right.

WAYNE: Frankly, the description that was given is a general description that fits thousands of people out there.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold on.

Martin Geduldig, are you attempting to suppress Mr. Gottlieb`s statement?

GEDULDIG: Well, we`re not to that point yet, but I agree with what my prior counsel has said.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Martin, why didn`t your guy show up at the court appearance?

GEDULDIG: Because it was a circus. There were...

GRACE: Was he afraid to look Mrs. Gottlieb in the face?

GEDULDIG: No, not at all. He doesn`t -- he says categorically that he did not commit the crime. He feels very badly for what happened to Mr. Gottlieb, but he says he didn`t do it. So, he`s not fearful of coming into the courtroom. He`s not fearful of seeing Mrs. Gottlieb. He feels very badly for what happened to her, but it`s not a question of his fearing coming into the courtroom.

There were many, many reporters. There were cameras. There were microphones.

GRACE: Well, wouldn`t that be a chance for him to say, I`m innocent; I didn`t do it?

LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: And what an upstanding citizen your client is, Martin, with two priors for robbery, one for attempted robbery and another...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What I don`t get is how this guy -- why this guy, who is not an American citizen, is still in this country after convictions?

We`re going to talk about that when we come back.

But, very quickly, Detective, we keep hearing about no hard evidence, no hard evidence. They`re referring to the fact that this is an eyewitness case. But you say it`s more than an eyewitness case.

GEDULDIG: There`s so much more. We`re not here to try this case at this point in time with Mr. Geduldig.

But suffice it to say, we have evidence that he was in a Radio Shack two days before the murder buying a police scanner. He was in a police equipment store making purchases there two days before the murder.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But, wait a minute. Have you seen this thing?

BARRY: Yes, I have.

GRACE: Anybody can do that. Just because he bought a siren and a badge, that doesn`t mean he did this. You have got to have more than that.

BARRY: He`s at JFK Airport at 2:00 that afternoon renting a black 2000 Ford Expedition, the identical car that was observed at the scene of Mr. Gottlieb`s murder.

GRACE: Do you have any fingerprints? Do you have any DNA?

BARRY: We do have forensic evidence, all of which will come out at trial.

GRACE: You`re not going to tell me, right?

BARRY: We can`t -- we`re not going to try it here.

GRACE: I`ll try to crack him while we`re on the break.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He thought he was being pulled over by a police officer in a black SUV in flashing lights. When he realized it wasn`t an officer, he tried to get away and the suspect shot him twice.

BARRY: Individuals who witnessed this and observed this overheard things at that time that it was going down, recall the individual stating, where are the keys? And he wasn`t after the keys to the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard different noises, yes. Didn`t know what they were at the time. I heard loud bangs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard three what sounded like pops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two of those shots hit Gottlieb in the leg and the arm. He died an hour later at the hospital of apparent blood loss. This afternoon, cops searched storm drains looking for the murder weapon without much luck. Detectives say Gottlieb was driving home from his job as the assistant manager of the HSBC Bank in Cedarhurst. The cops are not sure if Gottlieb was targeted because of his job or not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, we are pursuing every facet of Mr. Gottlieb`s life. Obviously, the fact he`s associated with a bank might make him a target in some way, some fashion.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace.

Thank you for being with us tonight.

Caryn Stark, my question is, he bragged -- he bragged about other crimes. What does that suggest to you as a psychologist?

STARK: That this is a man who seeks negative attention, that he`s actually proud of the stuff that he`s done. He clearly doesn`t have a conscience. And this is all that he could claim for success in his life, that he`s committed these crimes. And he even gave details of handcuffing and tying up and...

GRACE: You know what`s interesting to me, Detective? In this Texas case, when he was pulled over for speeding, Texas police found a fake cop uniform, a .9-millimeter gun, emergency lights, a siren, government license plates, prison transfer documents, a police scanner, and I.D. cards from five previous victims in his rented Crown Victoria.

And this judge -- what was her name again? Elizabeth, what was her name? Judge Mary Lou Robinson (ph) let him go? Then, in the space of three months, Gousse is a suspect in five similar robberies.

Elizabeth, you said that they were all within the same area. How do you know that?

GOTTLIEB: Well, from what I read. We were looking at a map, my brother and I, just talking. He said, well, look, his -- Rosedale, where he was found. Over here is the Five Towns area. There`s Lawrence and there`s Cedarhurst. And then there was the Queens areas. I mean, just...

GRACE: Defense attorney Martin Geduldig, doesn`t that go to the similarity in all the crimes, that so many of them are right in the same radius?

GEDULDIG: No, not at all. He lived in the Rosedale area. So, there`s no surprise that he would be located there, that he went to...

GRACE: You mean right next to all the robberies?

GEDULDIG: Rosedale is on the border of Queens and Nassau, where the crime was committed, in Nassau. The fact that most people, if he`s going to rent a car with a point of trying to hide his identity, you would give a false name when you rent a car. But he didn`t do that. He rented it in his own name.

GRACE: Oh, darn. You know, I hate it when the guy on trial for murder makes a mistake that way.

Martin, I mean, is there any way you can keep that car rental out of evidence?

GEDULDIG: I`ll let it come in.

The fact of the matter is -- and I said it earlier and I said it -- I`ll say it again. There is no evidence connecting my client to the commission of the murder in this case.

GRACE: OK. OK. Hold on a minute.

Detective, what did you find in the car, if anything? Was there anything in there?

BARRY: There was evidence which has a significant forensic value. And all of this will come out at trial.

GRACE: You`re playing it close to the vest?

BARRY: Well, I think it`s the prosecution`s role to disclose that. I`m just the investigator.

GRACE: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Let me go to Lisa Pinto.

Lisa, now, defense attorney Martin Geduldig says it has no relevance whatsoever that these robberies are all in the same radius, coincidentally, in the defendant`s backyard. Response?

PINTO: It`s a funny coincidence, Nancy, that this predator just happens to pick people in his backyard.

It`s so clear to me that there`s a common scheme. And that`s going to come to view in the trial. He -- the same physical description of an individual that robbed them at gunpoint, kidnaps them, takes them to their place of work and makes them empty the safe or the proceeds or whatever. It`s the same plan over and over again in the same neighborhood.

And because some liberal federal judge in Texas let him go free, unfortunately, Mrs. Gottlieb is in the situation she is today. It`s just a shame.

GRACE: Martin, response?

GEDULDIG: Well, the first thing I would like to respond to is the fact that the judge is in Texas and more than likely is a Bush judge.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You keep talking about the judges. Let`s talk about your guy.

GEDULDIG: Well, I talked about the fact that the deal that -- you`re complaining that he is still in the country. The deal was cut with the United States government. That`s why he is still in the country.

PINTO: Yes, but, Martin, the Queens DA`s office was looking at a double homicide.

I happen to know the people who prosecuted this case. And they had an off-duty cop who was murdered in cold blood. And the only way they could make this case stick was by using this jailhouse informant. They`re not ideal. But, unfortunately, it`s not the choir boys who are there who hear these things who happen to be in jail cells.

(CROSSTALK)

GEDULDIG: But juries are expected to believe these guys.

So now, at one point, the government says, believe this guy. And then, at another point, they say, don`t believe this guy.

PINTO: Well, it`s rational.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But, Martin, really, really, you think it`s going to help your client for the jury to know he snitched out, he ratted out a cell mate?

GEDULDIG: Oh, no, I don`t think that -- that has nothing -- my point on that was...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Then his criminal history will come in. That won`t help anything.

GEDULDIG: My point is that there is some payback on the part of Bell`s attorney in giving up my client`s name.

So, the fact that Bell`s attorney says to the police, I`ve got a guy that I think committed this crime, it`s suspect as to why...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Wait a minute. Are you telling me a member of the bar, in your bar, the defense bar...

PINTO: Exactly.

GRACE: Is in on the big conspiracy against your client?

PINTO: It`s a frame-up.

GEDULDIG: I don`t know that I would call it a big conspiracy. I said there`s payback. He sees this guy...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I would rethink that before I present it to a jury.

GEDULDIG: OK. I will.

GRACE: Hey, very quickly, Lauren DeFranco, we do believe that the tip came from another defense attorney. But what I want to ask you about is the neighborhood.

Many of these robberies were in a very close radius. What kind of neighborhood was it that Mr. Gottlieb was pulled over?

DEFRANCO: Well, this was a typical suburban neighborhood. And that`s why people were so shocked, because the houses are close together. It`s a middle-class neighborhood.

And it`s a close-knit community. So, when something like this happens, people talk to one another. And they`re frightened, understandably.

GRACE: I`m hearing in my ear from my producer that he made obscene gestures to reporters. Is that true?

DEFRANCO: That`s right. During the second court appearance, he made an obscene gestures to the reporters.

GRACE: You know what? Let`s just put it out there. He shot a bird. Did he shoot a bird to you?

DEFRANCO: He didn`t at me, but I do know that he did that.

GRACE: That`s not a good look, Martin.

You need to talk to your client about the nonverbal communication of shooting birds at reporters.

GEDULDIG: I`ll do that.

GRACE: Very quickly, before we go to break, Caryn Stark, explain to me what`s going on in this guy`s head if he is, in fact, guilty.

STARK: If he`s guilty, he`s going to try really hard, Nancy, to keep saying that, look, all my other crimes don`t fit this. I never really hurt anybody. I never really killed anyone. This isn`t my signature.

And I think that`s what he`s going to stick to. But he is an angry guy. Why would he shoot a bird? He knows better than to do that.

GRACE: I don`t know. If all these allegations are true, he has been getting away with a lot for a long time, until James Gottlieb fought back.

We`re taking a quick break.

Just ahead, some of our viewers will break away for local news. For those of you still with us, closing thoughts. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As the investigation continues, friends and family gathered for Gottlieb`s funeral today in Franklin Square. Police say the suspect was black in his 30s, about 5`10`` and had a medium build. Now they`re releasing more information about what he looked like.

BARRY: Cropped hair, clean-shaven and his attire was rather distinctive. The witnesses described it as a dark military-type jacket. There was a dark hoody on underneath that. He had dark pants Wes Clark were tucked into laced-up combat boots.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Elizabeth became a widow the night James Gottlieb was gunned down by a man apparently pretending to be a police officer.

Martin Geduldig is the high-profile defense attorney representing Reginald Gousse.

Martin, has your guy ever held a job?

GEDULDIG: Yes, he has.

GRACE: What?

GEDULDIG: He`s worked in warehouses. He has had a number of jobs. His mother has two jobs. She delivers newspapers.

GRACE: I`m talking about him.

GEDULDIG: Well, his whole family is a hardworking family.

GRACE: Yes. You said he had a job in a warehouse?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Is that true, Detective?

BARRY: We`re not aware of any history of any gainful employment. And this is an individual that is driving around in a 2001 Mercedes Benz CL500.

GRACE: Hey, I`d like one of those.

BARRY: This is a very expensive automobile. And it`s curious where the funds came from.

GRACE: You know, before we sign off, I want to speak with Elizabeth.

Elizabeth, do you plan to go to all of the court appearances?

GOTTLIEB: As many as I can.

GRACE: Why?

GOTTLIEB: Because I want to see this through for my husband. I believe that he should be -- this man should be put away. I don`t even like to call him a man, to tell you the truth, but he should be put away.

He`s done a terrible thing to me and to my family and to my friends and my community and to law enforcement. He just needs to be stopped. And I`d like to go to the proceedings. It may be hard to bear, but I`m going to stick with it as much. As I can, I will be there.

GRACE: We`re signing off for tonight.

But I want to thank all of my guests.

Elizabeth Gottlieb, thank you for being with us.

Dennis Barry, Lauren DeFranco, Martin Geduldig, Lisa Pinto, Lisa Wayne, and Caryn Stark.

Again, I`m signing off. But stay tuned for the latest news from around the world on Headline News.

I`ll see you tomorrow night right here on NANCY GRACE. Until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired April 13, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight on NANCY GRACE, imagine heading home later after work and then spotting blue police lights in your rear-view window. Wouldn`t you pull over? I would. And that`s what James Gottlieb did. And it cost him his life.
I don`t know about you, but I grew up learning that you obey the men and women in uniform, the men and women in blue. But how do you know if the cop pulling you over isn`t a fake? That`s just exactly what happened to murder victim James Gottlieb this January.

And now, let`s meet Mr. Gottlieb`s widow. Elizabeth is with us.

But first, a recreation of what happened the night James lost his life.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening. It`s 36 degrees and it`s snowing at 7 o`clock. On this Wednesday, January 5, I`m Kathryn Smith, (ph) and here`s what`s happening.

GRACE (voice-over): What was happening for James Gottlieb that snowy night was just a typical drive home from work. Suddenly, flashing lights in the rear-view mirror. He`s being pulled over. Like any law-abiding citizen, he complies. The SUV pulls up behind, a man gets out, walks toward Gottlieb`s car. Obeying, Gottlieb rolls down the window.

Then things went horribly wrong, Gottlieb in the fight for his life. A struggle, shots are fired. He fights to stay alive, to see his wife, his children, again at home, where he belongs, just blocks away. He never made it home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: With me here in the studio is Elizabeth Gottlieb, James` widow.

Thank you for being with us.

ELIZABETH GOTTLIEB, WIDOW OF JAMES GOTTLIEB: Thank you.

GRACE: When you see that reenactment, when you see that street, what do you think?

GOTTLIEB: It sends shivers through me. I can just imagine what happened that night. I go over it and over it in my mind. I drive past there a lot. And every time I drive past there, I can`t help but think about it.

I couldn`t be there with him. I can imagine his struggle. I can imagine him bleeding. And it just terrifies me.

GRACE: You know, when I think about Mr. Gottlieb, James Gottlieb, I think about the moment when he saw the blue lights, the moment when, by instinct, by training, we pull over, and then him dying there in that car, probably wanting to be with you, probably wanting to speak to you.

How are your kids? How are your children doing?

GOTTLIEB: They can`t get over the loss, especially my daughter, who is eight. She misses her dad terribly, and she doesn`t want to cry. And when she does cry, she`s afraid she`s going to make me cry. And I have to try to get it out of her and cheer her up.

She`s OK when she goes to school, I suppose, but every time we`re in the house, we think about him. Every time we drive around the neighborhood, we think about him. And we`ve seen a lot of things on the news, and we`ve seen a lot of things in the papers, and it just makes it vivid in our minds.

GRACE: How does your little girl -- she`s eight, right?

GOTTLIEB: Yes.

GRACE: How does she react when she sees the defendant in the paper?

GOTTLIEB: She says, "Mommy, cover his picture. I don`t want to look at him." She can`t stand to see him, and she gets angry. "Why did you do that to my father?"

GRACE: On Valentine`s Day, your daughter was very unhappy.

GOTTLIEB: Well, fortunately, her father had purchased something ahead of time. And she was able to be cheered up a little bit, because I gave it to her that morning and said, "This is from Dad." But tears came to her eyes anyway. She said, "No, I`m never going to see him again."

GRACE: And you have two other children, right?

GOTTLIEB: Ryan is 16, and James is 18. James is in college right now. So he`s sort of away from it. But he calls me, and he`s concerned. And I can hear it in his voice that he`s very angry, and he`s very upset, and he just feels so much that he`s missing his father.

And Brian, the same. He doesn`t tend to show it often, but he really remembers all the things his father did with him, and taught him, and the good and the bad times. And it`s left a terrible hole in our life.

GRACE: What happened in your life that night?

GOTTLIEB: Well, I thought that he was a little bit late. And I started getting nervous, wondering. And we called. I had my sons call. I had them call the bank. Of course, he had left from the bank.

I called his cell phone. We didn`t get any answers. And finally, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but I said, "Let`s go. I want to see if something happened to him along the way."

GRACE: Did you just feel that something was wrong?

GOTTLIEB: I felt something was wrong. And I said, "Let`s go look for him." I didn`t know where the branch was exactly. But Brian had been there with his father.

So we started to drive, and my daughter was in the car, also. And then we came upon the scene. And I said, "No, this is not -- this can`t be anything to do with us."

GRACE: You mean, you just saw his car?

GOTTLIEB: I saw his car. And I wasn`t sure it was his car. And I frantically tried to find out, get a closer look, and ask around, and find out. And some people on the side of the road said that they heard someone was murdered.

And then I said -- I was falling apart. And I went back in my car, and I said, "Brian, go around the other way. It looks like your father`s car." I looked again. And then I sent him to look, because we didn`t want to believe that it was the car.

And my husband, nowhere to be found, doors open on all the houses, people all around, police tape, lights and everything. And then when my son said it looks like the car, but there`s a lot of cars that look like that, I got out. I said, "Wait here with your sister." I had to find a police officer.

And I just came across someone in the street. I said, "Is that a Mercury Mystique?" And I fell apart at that point, because they had told me, and he didn`t make it. I mean, I wanted to believe that maybe he just had gotten hurt and he was alive in the hospital or something, but those weren`t the words that I heard.

My son, Brian, and I went to the hospital. The detectives took us there. And then my brother, who had called in the meantime, came by, also. And when my sister got to my house, my other son came to the hospital.

GRACE: Even when you were on your way to the hospital, did you still believe maybe he was still alive, you could get there, there was a mistake?

GOTTLIEB: Not at that point.

GRACE: You knew?

GOTTLIEB: I knew, because they had explained that there was a shooting. And I really don`t remember exactly the words that they said, but I knew that he didn`t make it. And when I got to the hospital, they said that he was alive when he got there. He was somewhat responsive in the ambulance. And they tried to keep him alive, and they did for a little bit, but he lost too much blood.

GRACE: With me tonight is James Gottlieb`s widow, Elizabeth. She`s recounting the night her husband was murdered. Why? Because he pulled over when he thought a cop car turned its siren. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE JOURNALIST: Reggie, why did you have to kill him, man?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER (voice-over): Nassau police it was an anonymous tip that led investigators to this man, 31-year-old Reginald Gousse whom cops say is the police impersonator who was driving this red Ford Expedition when he pulled over HSBC bank manager James Gottlieb last month in Franklin Square and demanded his keys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everyone. I`m Nancy Grace.

Right now, let`s go out to WABC reporter, Lauren DeFranco.

Hi, Lauren. What`s the latest?

LAUREN DEFRANCO, WABC REPORTER: Hi, Nancy. Well, as you know, 31- year-old Reginald Gousse was arrested. He was brought into custody by Nassau County police. He pled not guilty at his arraignment.

GRACE: Here in the studio with me is Detective Sergeant, with the homicide bureau at Nassau police, Dennis Barry.

Detective, welcome. What cracked the case?

DENNIS BARRY, DETECTIVE, NASSAU COUNTY: The key to this case was that tip that we received from the public. About 10 days in to the case, we got that call that we were looking for. And in large part, it was due to the intense media coverage that existed over that week and a half after the murder.

An individual called up, and just anonymously at the time, and I`ll get to that later, said, "You have to take a look at a guy by the name of Reginald Gousse." We got some information. We wound up digging a little deeper. And what we found with respect to Reginald Gousse was that this was an individual, back in 1998, had been arrested for doing something virtually identical.

GRACE: You know, what`s killing me, Detective, is this judge, Judge Mary Lou Robinson. Are you listening, Judge? Because you let this guy slip through your fingers. And here he is, free to roam the streets amongst innocent people.

Explain, Detective.

BARRY: What had happened back on August 14, 2004, Reginald Gousse was down in Amarillo, Texas, and he was stopped...

GRACE: He gets around, doesn`t he?

BARRY: He gets around, is right. He was stopped by the state troopers down there for speeding. Once the trooper had him stopped, he wound up suspecting that he may be trafficking in drugs and called for a K- 9 dog to search his car.

Twenty five minutes later, that K-9 dog arrived at the scene. The dog searches the exterior of the car and signals to the officer that there`s probable cause to believe there are drugs in the car. Based upon that, they conducted a search of the vehicle.

GRACE: And they found?

BARRY: They didn`t find any drugs, but what they did find was a nine- millimeter weapon in the car. They found a police uniform. They found a police shield. They found a police placard. They found this rental vehicle that he had rented two days earlier at JFK airport had been rigged with a red light and siren.

GRACE: Mrs. Gottlieb, when you hear this, what do you think? This judge let him slip through her fingers, let him off on a technicality. That`s why he met up with your husband.

GOTTLIEB: I just want to say to her, "Look what you did to us. You let this guy go, and he victimized other people." I know that -- I realize there`s a legal system, and people have rights and whatever, but it shouldn`t have happened, that he got out.

GRACE: If this judge let him slip through her fingers, as I believe she did, she is partially to blame for what has happened.

Detective, you just mentioned he had all this police paraphernalia. I want to show them this. Take a look at this. Anybody can order police -- what would you say -- paraphernalia? And here especially, you can even get a police badge. Check it out, $42.99, police badge. Incredible. Why?

BARRY: The Internet makes it even more accessible to the public. Now they can...

GRACE: Hey, you don`t even have to have a computer. You don`t have to have computer skills to do this. Explain.

BARRY: It`s one of the things police officers across the country have been fighting for years, trying to crack down on the sale of police equipment, police badges to people that are not certified law enforcement officials.

GRACE: You know what`s incredible to me, Lauren DeFranco, and I`m grateful for it, is that the detective says that, by so much coverage, someone called in an anonymous tip. Just how much coverage was there of the Gottlieb murder?

DEFRANCO: Well, Nancy, there was a lot of coverage right from the very start, because this was a crime that could really happen to anyone. This put fear into the heart of the community. People were afraid to pull over for police, specifically undercover cops.

So we kept it out there. We kept it alive, because we wanted to help Mrs. Gottlieb. And by the way, my heart goes out to Elizabeth Gottlieb.

GRACE: Mrs. Gottlieb, there has been such an outpouring of love, and affection, and concern, and support for you. And I know you`re grateful but, you know, when you wake up in the middle of the night, and you put your foot over there, there`s nobody there. I mean, what keeps you going?

GOTTLIEB: I just have to think of the good times. And I have my sons and my daughter to carry on the family. And we`ll have to stick together. And I know that this guy is in custody, and that helps me. If he`s off the street and he gets put away, it helps me.

GRACE: You know, his defense lawyer, who was a pretty high-profile lawyer, Martin Geduldig, he says the state has no case against Gousse.

GOTTLIEB: I didn`t like hearing that. I`m sure that we have enough evidence. I don`t know what we have. I don`t want to know what we have. I want it to come out when it has to come out. I`m sure that the police have done their job and will put him away.

GRACE: How long were you two together?

GOTTLIEB: Oh, well, we would have been married 25 years. And in May, we were going to celebrate our anniversary. And we actually knew each other long than that, 26 years, I guess.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN GEDULDIG, LAWYER FOR REGINALD GOUSSE: I don`t believe they have a confession. I don`t think they have a murder weapon. I don`t think they have any fingerprints. I don`t believe they have any DNA. I don`t think they have an eyewitness. It`s a case based on past history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We`ll see about that. Welcome back to NANCY GRACE. Thank you for being with us tonight. Let`s go straight to the defense attorney in this case, Martin Geduldig.

Thank you for being with us, sir. Is your guy a U.S. citizen?

MARTIN GEDULDIG, LAWYER FOR REGINALD GOUSSE: He`s from Haiti originally, came here as a very young boy, 8 or 9 years of age.

GRACE: Now, this guy has done jail time in America, right?

GEDULDIG: I believe that`s the case.

GRACE: And he`s not a U.S. citizen?

GEDULDIG: I don`t think so. He may have citizenship on...

GRACE: You must be a magician. My hats off to you, because somehow this guy has not been deported back to Haiti. Now, how is that?

GEDULDIG: Well, I have only represented him on this case, so I can`t speak about why he`s still here or any of his past cases. So I don`t know the answer to that. I`m only representing him...

GRACE: OK, I`ll be right back with you.

Detective, why is he still here? He pled guilty to a felony, for Pete`s sake, and get hard jail time?

BARRY: He pled guilty to a felony. And they made a deal with the devil. Back in 1998, what he did, he goes out and he stole, at gunpoint, a Crown Victoria. He rigs that car with red light and siren. He goes out and he obtains a weapon illegally.

And on May 20, 1998, a night manager from the Staples Store on Van Wyck Expressway in Jamaica is coming out and he finds that his tires have been slashed. He`s fixing the tire when up into the parking lot pulls a car with a red light and siren.

GRACE: And let me guess, it`s the defendant.

BARRY: And he says, "Thank goodness. It`s a cop come to help me." It was his worst nightmare. Reggie Gousse pulls up, pulls a gun on him, handcuffs him, duck-tapes him, takes him back to an apartment in Jamaica. And at that point, he forces him to give up keys to the store, the alarm code and the combination to the safe.

GRACE: Did he go back and rob the store?

BARRY: He gets a U-Haul.

GRACE: Oh, good lord.

BARRY: He goes back to the store and he is unloading the contents of the store into the U-Haul when a police officer on patrol sees this, realizes this shouldn`t be happening at this time, goes up, stops, questions him, and pulls...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Now, this was in 19...

BARRY: This is in 1998.

GRACE: He pled guilty. He goes behind bars. Why is he out?

BARRY: He goes into Rikers. And while he`s in Rikers, he`s cellmates with an individual by the name of George Bell. George Bell was in there for shooting an off-duty police officer, Charles Davis. He winds up getting a jail house confession from Bell, testifies for the prosecution...

GRACE: And gets out?

BARRY: ... in the case against bell. They work a deal. And he serves five years. He fought deportation. And because of the intervention of the Queens district attorney`s office, he remains in this country.

GRACE: He got out.

Here in the studio with me is psychologist Caryn Stark. Caryn, why the impersonation? What motivates someone to pretend?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: This is a grown man who has no authority in the world, Nancy. And so...

GRACE: But you want me to feel sorry for him? Is that where you`re headed?

STARK: No, but I think that we could understand his need to impersonate a cop to give himself this...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: No, I don`t understand it.

STARK: That`s what it`s about for a criminal when they do that. And a lot of them do. It gives them their own feeling of authority, their own need for authority, power, even though it`s not true.

GRACE: Caryn?

STARK: Yes, Nancy?

GRACE: I understand dressing up like a cop to get authority, but getting a U-Haul and looting a Staples, pulling Mr. Gottlieb over?

STARK: Well, nobody`s saying he knows what he`s -- smart in what he`s doing. Although, he`s a good stalker. And he does seem to figure out who his victim should be.

GRACE: You know, Elizabeth, the whole thing was him trying to get the keys to the bank. Do you think that?

GOTTLIEB: I know. I definitely think that. The car was running. I got there. The lights were on the car when I saw it.

And I was hoping it wasn`t his car. My house key was on the car key ring. If he wanted other keys, he would have taken those, and he would have taken the car, or whatever else.

GRACE: And your daughter lived in fear until he was caught, afraid he may have the house key and come to the house?

GOTTLIEB: She definitely did. And she`s still in fear.

GRACE: What would she say?

GOTTLIEB: She said, "I`m scared, Mommy. He could come here. What`s going to happen?"

GRACE: Let me go back out to defense attorney Martin Geduldig. What is your defense going to be at trial?

GEDULDIG: Well, let me first say that the detective mentioned that a deal was made with the devil. The devil in this case was the government. They did the deal with my client so that he could stay in the country.

GRACE: Oh, I like that strategy. Blame the government.

GEDULDIG: Well, it is -- the way you`ve been talking, it is the government`s fault that he`s still here. And they make those deals all the time.

GRACE: Is it the government`s fault that he shot Mr. Gottlieb?

GEDULDIG: Well, if the government -- you were blaming the judge for not having arrested him in Amarillo, Texas. If the government had acted the way they should have, then he should have been deported, and according to you, we wouldn`t have had this incident.

But my defense is quite simply that he`s not guilty of this crime. This so-called tip that they got is an individual that`s well-known. His name has appeared in the newspaper. He`s a lawyer. He represented Bell, the fellow that they claim Gousse gave information against.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So it`s all come home to roost? Ouch.

Let`s go to Lisa Wayne, standing by. Lisa, what is the defense up against here?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, the bottom line is that you want to make sure you have the right guy. This is an identification case. There appears to not be any physical evidence that`s going to incriminate this guy. And it`s simply an identification case.

So Mrs. Gottlieb wants to make sure. The public wants to make sure this is the right guy. And I think that`s the kind of defense you`re going to mount in this kind of case.

GRACE: So they`re going to attack the eyewitnesses, Lisa Pinto?

LISA PINTO, PROSECUTOR: They`ve gave a very specific physical description here of 5`10", medium-build black man with short-cropped hair. And guess what? There were several lineups in this case where both eyewitnesses and victims identified Martin`s client.

And I`m sure that if Martin wasn`t present at these lineups, then the prior lawyer was. So for him to stand at a press conference and say, "Oh, gee, they have no case here," that`s just sheer puffery. They have witnesses, they have eyewitnesses, they have a man who had a gun at his home, a 9-millimeter gun. We learned he had a gun in his car earlier. I mean, the state`s case is overwhelming here.

WAYNE: But the prosecutor knows that that`s not true, because we know that jurors do not want to convict on eyewitness testimony alone. It`s unreliable, it`s suggestive, and it`s not good enough. And if that`s all the case that they have in this situation, this man is going to be found not guilty.

GRACE: OK, guys. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I`m hearing the oldest story in the book, discredit the eyewitness. Next thing I know, Lisa Wayne, you and Martin Geduldig, are going to say, "Were they wearing glasses that night?"

As we go to break, I want to remind you that here at NANCY GRACE we want very much to solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, we look for any and all tips relating to 25-year-old Lacy Ferguson, killed by a drive-by shooter in Modesto, California, August 24, 2003.

If you have any information regarding Lacy Ferguson, place contact the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation, toll-free, 888-813-8389. There could be a reward involved regarding Lacy Ferguson. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good evening. It`s 36 degrees and it`s snowing at 7:00. On this Wednesday, January 5, I`m Katherine Smith (ph). And here`s what`s happening.

GRACE (voice-over): What was happening for James Gottlieb, that snowy night was just a typical drive home from work. Suddenly, flashing lights in a rear view mirror. He`s being pulled over. Like any law-abiding citizen, he complies. The SUV pulls up behind. A man gets out, walks towards Gottlieb`s car.

Obeying, Gottlieb rolls down the window. Then, things went horribly wrong, Gottlieb in a fight for his life, a struggle. Shots are fired. He fights to stay alive, to see his wife, his children again at home, where he belongs, just blocks away. He never made it home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Welcome back.

Thanks for being with us. As you know, James Gottlieb simply pulled over after a long day of work as a local bank manager when he saw a cop pull up behind him. Well, as you know by now, nothing is as it appears.

With us is Mr. Gottlieb`s widow, Elizabeth Gottlieb.

You`ve been going to court every time there has been a court appearance. Has he been there, the defendant?

ELIZABETH GOTTLIEB, WIDOW OF JAMES GOTTLIEB: I went to the arraignment. He was at the arraignment. And I was maybe eight or 10 feet away from him, staring at his back.

He walked in. He didn`t turn to us. He walked out. He didn`t turn his head. And it just gave me the shivers to even be in a room with him. And the next court appearance, part nine, he didn`t come out. And I kind of wanted for him to see me, because I feel every time he sees me or he sees somebody from my family, maybe it will make him think. Maybe it will give him a wakeup. Maybe he`ll come clean with what he did.

GRACE: Do you really think he will come clean?

GOTTLIEB: I can only hope. I doubt it. I seriously doubt it, but he`s -- he`s -- at least maybe he could think a little bit more about what he did.

GRACE: Question to you, Detective.

How many of these offenses do you think Gousse has pulled off?

DET. SGT. DENNIS BARRY, NASSAU COUNTY: We have him identified in no less than five similar cases. And the pattern is identical in each and every one of these.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But there haven`t been five murders.

BARRY: There haven`t been five murders, but in each of these five cases, he stalks his victim, posing as a police officer. He handcuffs them. He takes them back to an establishment, forces them to divulge the information to gain access to the premises, tries to gain access to the safe.

GRACE: But why was this case different? Why did Mr. Gottlieb have to die?

BARRY: One of the things that was very telling when we spoke to Reginald Gousse, we asked him, Reggie, why do you handcuff your victims? And he looked us in the eye and he said, this way, they can`t hurt me and I don`t have to hurt them.

GRACE: Martin Geduldig, defense attorney for Mr. Gousse, charged in the murder of James Gottlieb, is with us tonight. He says the state has no hard proof in the case.

How do you plan, Martin, to keep out the similar transactions, in other words, the other offenses the state believes your guy has committed?

MARTIN GEDULDIG, ATTORNEY FOR GOUSSE: Well, the first thing they have to do is establish that he committed the crime charged.

When I said before they had no eyewitnesses on that tape that you showed, I was talking about a witness to the actual commission of the murder of Mr. Gottlieb. They have no witnesses to that. They have no -- as I said then, they have no DNA. They have no confession. In fact, they had Mr. Gousse in custody for two days, trying to get him to give a statement, a confession that he committed this crime.

During that two-day period, they threatened and later did arrest his fiancee. They threatened to arrest his mother. They did all kinds of things during a 48-hour period to get him...

GRACE: Right. My question to you was, how do you plan to keep out these similar transactions when this comes to trial, these other five offenses the detective is alleging?

GEDULDIG: Well, one of the things that I intend to raise is the fact that he may have committed other crimes that are unrelated to the crime he`s charged with. It doesn`t necessarily prove the crime that he`s charged with. They`re trying to convict this man for crimes that are not charged in this indictment.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Do you think that you will be able to keep out the similar transactions, the other offenses that are similar to this?

GEDULDIG: I think I might be able to do that.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: All right.

Let me go quickly to Caryn Stark.

You know, Caryn, why bother to pretend you`re a cop? Why not just pull up at the red light and carjack the car?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it makes people be much more trusting, Nancy. They`re more inclined. Except for our one victim here, they`re more inclined to say, OK, and listen. And people bow to authority. The difference here is that he actually fought back. He was more like a hero. And, unfortunately for him, he shouldn`t have done that.

GRACE: When you think about your husband under these circumstances, what do you think he did? Would he allow himself to be handcuffed?

GOTTLIEB: No. No. I believe he asked for identification. And when he wasn`t given any, then he started to struggle.

And he probably put up a good fight and tried to get away. I don`t know how the gun went off or anything like that, but I`m very, very thankful that he was able to describe the person who attacked him and the circumstances around it. When I read about it and I read, someone shot me, it just -- I can`t even -- I don`t even like to think about it.

GRACE: When you read what he told the police?

GOTTLIEB: I`m just thankful he was able -- he wasn`t shot dead. He was able to say something about the attacker.

GRACE: Lauren DeFranco with WABC is with us.

Lauren, what exactly do you believe he was able to tell police before he passed away?

LAUREN DEFRANCO, WABC REPORTER: Well, basically, Nancy, he helped police solve this case. He told them, I was shot. He told them about the keys. He told them that this man wanted the keys, and police were able to track this man down through the last words of Mr. Gottlieb.

GRACE: You know, Lisa Wayne, as a defense attorney, you would likely try to keep out a dying declaration under the hearsay rule.

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right.

GRACE: Do you expect that to happen at trial? And how does that work or not work?

WAYNE: Well, you are going to try to keep that out, because what you`re going to say is that it lacks trustworthiness, that, in fact, that perhaps that`s not what he meant, the context of what`s going on. The description was untrustworthy. It was unreliable.

But the bottom line is, it probably will come out.

GRACE: Because?

WAYNE: A dying declaration, because the courts view that, that that statement is reliable, because there`s not the motive there to lie or to make something up in your dying words, that there`s a trustworthiness to that. So, most defense lawyers are going to look at that and say, hey, that`s coming in. I know I`m going to have to deal with that and how am I going to fashion that into my defense and make it favorable for me?

Because it may not be that bad.

GRACE: Right.

WAYNE: Frankly, the description that was given is a general description that fits thousands of people out there.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold on.

Martin Geduldig, are you attempting to suppress Mr. Gottlieb`s statement?

GEDULDIG: Well, we`re not to that point yet, but I agree with what my prior counsel has said.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Martin, why didn`t your guy show up at the court appearance?

GEDULDIG: Because it was a circus. There were...

GRACE: Was he afraid to look Mrs. Gottlieb in the face?

GEDULDIG: No, not at all. He doesn`t -- he says categorically that he did not commit the crime. He feels very badly for what happened to Mr. Gottlieb, but he says he didn`t do it. So, he`s not fearful of coming into the courtroom. He`s not fearful of seeing Mrs. Gottlieb. He feels very badly for what happened to her, but it`s not a question of his fearing coming into the courtroom.

There were many, many reporters. There were cameras. There were microphones.

GRACE: Well, wouldn`t that be a chance for him to say, I`m innocent; I didn`t do it?

LISA PINTO, FORMER PROSECUTOR: And what an upstanding citizen your client is, Martin, with two priors for robbery, one for attempted robbery and another...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What I don`t get is how this guy -- why this guy, who is not an American citizen, is still in this country after convictions?

We`re going to talk about that when we come back.

But, very quickly, Detective, we keep hearing about no hard evidence, no hard evidence. They`re referring to the fact that this is an eyewitness case. But you say it`s more than an eyewitness case.

GEDULDIG: There`s so much more. We`re not here to try this case at this point in time with Mr. Geduldig.

But suffice it to say, we have evidence that he was in a Radio Shack two days before the murder buying a police scanner. He was in a police equipment store making purchases there two days before the murder.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But, wait a minute. Have you seen this thing?

BARRY: Yes, I have.

GRACE: Anybody can do that. Just because he bought a siren and a badge, that doesn`t mean he did this. You have got to have more than that.

BARRY: He`s at JFK Airport at 2:00 that afternoon renting a black 2000 Ford Expedition, the identical car that was observed at the scene of Mr. Gottlieb`s murder.

GRACE: Do you have any fingerprints? Do you have any DNA?

BARRY: We do have forensic evidence, all of which will come out at trial.

GRACE: You`re not going to tell me, right?

BARRY: We can`t -- we`re not going to try it here.

GRACE: I`ll try to crack him while we`re on the break.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He thought he was being pulled over by a police officer in a black SUV in flashing lights. When he realized it wasn`t an officer, he tried to get away and the suspect shot him twice.

BARRY: Individuals who witnessed this and observed this overheard things at that time that it was going down, recall the individual stating, where are the keys? And he wasn`t after the keys to the car.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard different noises, yes. Didn`t know what they were at the time. I heard loud bangs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I heard three what sounded like pops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two of those shots hit Gottlieb in the leg and the arm. He died an hour later at the hospital of apparent blood loss. This afternoon, cops searched storm drains looking for the murder weapon without much luck. Detectives say Gottlieb was driving home from his job as the assistant manager of the HSBC Bank in Cedarhurst. The cops are not sure if Gottlieb was targeted because of his job or not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At this point, we are pursuing every facet of Mr. Gottlieb`s life. Obviously, the fact he`s associated with a bank might make him a target in some way, some fashion.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace.

Thank you for being with us tonight.

Caryn Stark, my question is, he bragged -- he bragged about other crimes. What does that suggest to you as a psychologist?

STARK: That this is a man who seeks negative attention, that he`s actually proud of the stuff that he`s done. He clearly doesn`t have a conscience. And this is all that he could claim for success in his life, that he`s committed these crimes. And he even gave details of handcuffing and tying up and...

GRACE: You know what`s interesting to me, Detective? In this Texas case, when he was pulled over for speeding, Texas police found a fake cop uniform, a .9-millimeter gun, emergency lights, a siren, government license plates, prison transfer documents, a police scanner, and I.D. cards from five previous victims in his rented Crown Victoria.

And this judge -- what was her name again? Elizabeth, what was her name? Judge Mary Lou Robinson (ph) let him go? Then, in the space of three months, Gousse is a suspect in five similar robberies.

Elizabeth, you said that they were all within the same area. How do you know that?

GOTTLIEB: Well, from what I read. We were looking at a map, my brother and I, just talking. He said, well, look, his -- Rosedale, where he was found. Over here is the Five Towns area. There`s Lawrence and there`s Cedarhurst. And then there was the Queens areas. I mean, just...

GRACE: Defense attorney Martin Geduldig, doesn`t that go to the similarity in all the crimes, that so many of them are right in the same radius?

GEDULDIG: No, not at all. He lived in the Rosedale area. So, there`s no surprise that he would be located there, that he went to...

GRACE: You mean right next to all the robberies?

GEDULDIG: Rosedale is on the border of Queens and Nassau, where the crime was committed, in Nassau. The fact that most people, if he`s going to rent a car with a point of trying to hide his identity, you would give a false name when you rent a car. But he didn`t do that. He rented it in his own name.

GRACE: Oh, darn. You know, I hate it when the guy on trial for murder makes a mistake that way.

Martin, I mean, is there any way you can keep that car rental out of evidence?

GEDULDIG: I`ll let it come in.

The fact of the matter is -- and I said it earlier and I said it -- I`ll say it again. There is no evidence connecting my client to the commission of the murder in this case.

GRACE: OK. OK. Hold on a minute.

Detective, what did you find in the car, if anything? Was there anything in there?

BARRY: There was evidence which has a significant forensic value. And all of this will come out at trial.

GRACE: You`re playing it close to the vest?

BARRY: Well, I think it`s the prosecution`s role to disclose that. I`m just the investigator.

GRACE: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Let me go to Lisa Pinto.

Lisa, now, defense attorney Martin Geduldig says it has no relevance whatsoever that these robberies are all in the same radius, coincidentally, in the defendant`s backyard. Response?

PINTO: It`s a funny coincidence, Nancy, that this predator just happens to pick people in his backyard.

It`s so clear to me that there`s a common scheme. And that`s going to come to view in the trial. He -- the same physical description of an individual that robbed them at gunpoint, kidnaps them, takes them to their place of work and makes them empty the safe or the proceeds or whatever. It`s the same plan over and over again in the same neighborhood.

And because some liberal federal judge in Texas let him go free, unfortunately, Mrs. Gottlieb is in the situation she is today. It`s just a shame.

GRACE: Martin, response?

GEDULDIG: Well, the first thing I would like to respond to is the fact that the judge is in Texas and more than likely is a Bush judge.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You keep talking about the judges. Let`s talk about your guy.

GEDULDIG: Well, I talked about the fact that the deal that -- you`re complaining that he is still in the country. The deal was cut with the United States government. That`s why he is still in the country.

PINTO: Yes, but, Martin, the Queens DA`s office was looking at a double homicide.

I happen to know the people who prosecuted this case. And they had an off-duty cop who was murdered in cold blood. And the only way they could make this case stick was by using this jailhouse informant. They`re not ideal. But, unfortunately, it`s not the choir boys who are there who hear these things who happen to be in jail cells.

(CROSSTALK)

GEDULDIG: But juries are expected to believe these guys.

So now, at one point, the government says, believe this guy. And then, at another point, they say, don`t believe this guy.

PINTO: Well, it`s rational.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: But, Martin, really, really, you think it`s going to help your client for the jury to know he snitched out, he ratted out a cell mate?

GEDULDIG: Oh, no, I don`t think that -- that has nothing -- my point on that was...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Then his criminal history will come in. That won`t help anything.

GEDULDIG: My point is that there is some payback on the part of Bell`s attorney in giving up my client`s name.

So, the fact that Bell`s attorney says to the police, I`ve got a guy that I think committed this crime, it`s suspect as to why...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Wait a minute. Are you telling me a member of the bar, in your bar, the defense bar...

PINTO: Exactly.

GRACE: Is in on the big conspiracy against your client?

PINTO: It`s a frame-up.

GEDULDIG: I don`t know that I would call it a big conspiracy. I said there`s payback. He sees this guy...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I would rethink that before I present it to a jury.

GEDULDIG: OK. I will.

GRACE: Hey, very quickly, Lauren DeFranco, we do believe that the tip came from another defense attorney. But what I want to ask you about is the neighborhood.

Many of these robberies were in a very close radius. What kind of neighborhood was it that Mr. Gottlieb was pulled over?

DEFRANCO: Well, this was a typical suburban neighborhood. And that`s why people were so shocked, because the houses are close together. It`s a middle-class neighborhood.

And it`s a close-knit community. So, when something like this happens, people talk to one another. And they`re frightened, understandably.

GRACE: I`m hearing in my ear from my producer that he made obscene gestures to reporters. Is that true?

DEFRANCO: That`s right. During the second court appearance, he made an obscene gestures to the reporters.

GRACE: You know what? Let`s just put it out there. He shot a bird. Did he shoot a bird to you?

DEFRANCO: He didn`t at me, but I do know that he did that.

GRACE: That`s not a good look, Martin.

You need to talk to your client about the nonverbal communication of shooting birds at reporters.

GEDULDIG: I`ll do that.

GRACE: Very quickly, before we go to break, Caryn Stark, explain to me what`s going on in this guy`s head if he is, in fact, guilty.

STARK: If he`s guilty, he`s going to try really hard, Nancy, to keep saying that, look, all my other crimes don`t fit this. I never really hurt anybody. I never really killed anyone. This isn`t my signature.

And I think that`s what he`s going to stick to. But he is an angry guy. Why would he shoot a bird? He knows better than to do that.

GRACE: I don`t know. If all these allegations are true, he has been getting away with a lot for a long time, until James Gottlieb fought back.

We`re taking a quick break.

Just ahead, some of our viewers will break away for local news. For those of you still with us, closing thoughts. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As the investigation continues, friends and family gathered for Gottlieb`s funeral today in Franklin Square. Police say the suspect was black in his 30s, about 5`10`` and had a medium build. Now they`re releasing more information about what he looked like.

BARRY: Cropped hair, clean-shaven and his attire was rather distinctive. The witnesses described it as a dark military-type jacket. There was a dark hoody on underneath that. He had dark pants Wes Clark were tucked into laced-up combat boots.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Elizabeth became a widow the night James Gottlieb was gunned down by a man apparently pretending to be a police officer.

Martin Geduldig is the high-profile defense attorney representing Reginald Gousse.

Martin, has your guy ever held a job?

GEDULDIG: Yes, he has.

GRACE: What?

GEDULDIG: He`s worked in warehouses. He has had a number of jobs. His mother has two jobs. She delivers newspapers.

GRACE: I`m talking about him.

GEDULDIG: Well, his whole family is a hardworking family.

GRACE: Yes. You said he had a job in a warehouse?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Is that true, Detective?

BARRY: We`re not aware of any history of any gainful employment. And this is an individual that is driving around in a 2001 Mercedes Benz CL500.

GRACE: Hey, I`d like one of those.

BARRY: This is a very expensive automobile. And it`s curious where the funds came from.

GRACE: You know, before we sign off, I want to speak with Elizabeth.

Elizabeth, do you plan to go to all of the court appearances?

GOTTLIEB: As many as I can.

GRACE: Why?

GOTTLIEB: Because I want to see this through for my husband. I believe that he should be -- this man should be put away. I don`t even like to call him a man, to tell you the truth, but he should be put away.

He`s done a terrible thing to me and to my family and to my friends and my community and to law enforcement. He just needs to be stopped. And I`d like to go to the proceedings. It may be hard to bear, but I`m going to stick with it as much. As I can, I will be there.

GRACE: We`re signing off for tonight.

But I want to thank all of my guests.

Elizabeth Gottlieb, thank you for being with us.

Dennis Barry, Lauren DeFranco, Martin Geduldig, Lisa Pinto, Lisa Wayne, and Caryn Stark.

Again, I`m signing off. But stay tuned for the latest news from around the world on Headline News.

I`ll see you tomorrow night right here on NANCY GRACE. Until then, good night, friend.

END