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Nancy Grace

Convicted Sex Offender Stands Charged With 13-Year-Old Girl`s Murder; Michael Jackson`s Accuser`s Mother Back on the Stand

Aired April 18, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a heartbreaking ending to the search for 13-year-old girl, Sarah Michelle Lunde. Sarah went missing last Saturday, last seen following a church youth meeting. Then she went to her own home.
This weekend, the 13-year-old girl`s body was found submerged nearby in a fish pond. Convicted sex offender David Onstott, who dated Sarah`s mother, tonight stands charged with murder one.

And in the Michael Jackson child sex trial, the alleged victim`s mom is back on the stand. Cross-examination is raging in that court of law. The boy`s mother apparently is giving as good as she gets.

And in Pennsylvania, a prominent prosecutor goes missing without a trace.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

In the Michael Jackson child sex trial, the boy accuser`s mother is on the stand, day two of cross-exam. And tonight in Pennsylvania, a massive manhunt underway for a felony prosecutor missing since Friday. Ray Gricar went for a drive to a nearby town antiquing. He never came home.

But first, the intense search for 13-year-old Sarah Michelle Lunde is over. Sarah`s body, found in a nearby pond, only a half-mile from her Florida home. Sarah went missing last Saturday night, remember, after she opened the front door to an unregistered -- repeat, unregistered -- convicted sex offender, David Onstott.

Onstott, as of tonight, has confessed he strangled the little girl to death. He`s being held tonight without bond, charged with murder one.

With us tonight, in Ruskin, Florida, little Sarah`s surrogate dad, Pastor Johnny Cook; in San Francisco, victims` rights advocate Marc Klaas; in New York, defense attorneys Dino Lombardi and Mercedes Cohen, and psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

But first, let`s go to Florida and CNN correspondent Rick Sanchez.

Rick, what`s the latest, friend?

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It`s an amazing story.

It involves a little girl who was doing everything possible to try and change her life, who really came from some very difficult obstacles, and yet somehow, Nancy, was able to pull it all together, despite the obstacles, despite everything that she`d been up against, and had really found in many ways her own salvation by getting so tied to the people who operate this church. This is the First Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ here in Ruskin, Florida.

And we have found out now, as you had said earlier in the show, that indeed police have not original found her body but they`re now charging a man who had dated her mother several months back who had finally shown up one night, as you have probably heard by now. Showing up at her house to ask for her mother, and instead the little girl was there. Little Sarah Lunde was there.

She was all alone, Nancy. And because she was all alone, police say a scuffle broke out of some form. We don`t know why. We don`t have many of the specifics on that. But we do know that there was quite a scuffle...

GRACE: Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick, how can you say -- was the little girl half...

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: ... found a couple blocks away. It was found in a pond, a fish pond. It had been weighted down. And police are saying that they definitely have their man.

GRACE: With us is Rick Sanchez.

Let me quickly go to Dino Lombardi, defense attorney.

Dino, this scuffle business, I don`t think Rick could hear me. This scuffle business obviously is a ruse. Dino, the little girl was found half-naked. What kind of a scuffle is that?

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, a scuffle between a grown man with a violent past and a young girl, no, that`s really not an issue here. I mean, it looks like an open-and-shut case, obviously...

GRACE: Oh, that`s the first time I`ve heard that from you.

LOMBARDI: Well, I said looks like. And now, obviously, you know, this is the second time this has happened in as many months in Florida. I know you would agree me, Nancy, due process has to take its course.

The confession we`re hearing about has to be looked at to see if it`s a reliable confession, a real confession. The autopsy will yield some evidence. But I think the defense in this case is going to have to be very careful to make sure that what they are looking for...

GRACE: Right.

LOMBARDI: ... is perhaps to spare him the death penalty and that`s about it.

GRACE: Very quickly to Marc Klaas. As you know, Marc`s little girl went missing, was kidnapped, ultimately, murdered.

Marc Klaas, what about this mother? Where was she? I was talking to Rick Sanchez earlier. Marc, this little girl had to basically hitchhike to get to church. She had to go around the neighborhood begging for rides to get to church. Where was the mother the night she went missing?

Remember, the little girl came home after a church event, Marc Klaas, Saturday night. The brother, 17-years-old, was there. The girl was gone Sunday morning.

The mom didn`t drag home until -- when was it, Rick Sanchez? When did the mom come home finally?

SANCHEZ: We`re told the mother came home like a day later after the incident. And she didn`t report it to police at least that long. So that`s obviously a major part of the story that police have looked into.

But obviously, you know, it`s hard to second-guess in that situation. The fact of the matter is, that the mother had a relationship with that man. I talked to some friends today who were saying, well, it wasn`t really a relationship. Obviously, there was something going on several months ago.

GRACE: Back to Marc Klaas.

Marc, the mother didn`t come home for days on end. Then they didn`t report the girl missing. This is a lot different from the last case we covered. That little girl -- remember Jessica Lunsford?

MARC KLAAS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Sure.

GRACE: She lived with her grandmother. It wasn`t as if she was under her own supervision, like this girl was.

KLAAS: But it was not that unlike the case that happened in Iowa not long ago, where the sex offender was invited into the home.

The reality is, is that parents, an awful lot of people in this country, shouldn`t be parents to begin with. And when they are parents, they don`t take the responsibility to raise their children in the way that you or I, or so many others would. And they leave these children to their own devices.

Thank goodness little Sarah had found sanctuary in the church. Thank goodness there were wonderful people like her pastor who took her in. But even then, he`s very, very limited in what he can do, since he doesn`t have any kind of parental custody.

GRACE: Well, Marc, the pastor, who is with us tonight, couldn`t throw Onstott out of the house when he came a-knockin`.

And I want to go to Reverend Johnny Cook. Reverend, is it true this little girl had to get to church all on her own, her parents wouldn`t even -- mother wouldn`t even bother to give her a ride?

PASTOR JOHNNY COOK, SARAH LUNDE`S SURROGATE FATHER: No, if she was home, she would bring her. If she didn`t have a way, she would always call us to come and get her.

GRACE: What does the mother do for a living, Reverend?

COOK: I`m not really sure of that.

GRACE: When did you get the news, Reverend, that Sarah`s body had been found?

COOK: We got the news when the sheriff had announced -- just prior to him announcing that they had found a body but wasn`t sure of who it was, but let us know that they were fixing to go out and tell the public about the situation, probably just a few minutes before.

GRACE: Let me get my director.

Renee (ph), could you show that shot again of Sarah with her little green cast on her arm? When I heard that the body found had a green cast on it, obviously, it was this girl.

Reverend Cook, did Sarah ever tell you what she wanted to be when she grew up?

COOK: She had always just let us know that she wanted to be a great servant in the church and to sing. And she was just doing all of that. She was great, great in coming to church, and supporting everybody, and loving everybody. So we just worked with her.

GRACE: Well, you know, Dr. Robi Ludwig is with us. You know, I didn`t have a way out. My mom was the youth fellowship leader, and my father was the Sunday school teacher. OK, so -- but it seems to me so odd that the mother doesn`t come home.

This child has to go around the neighborhood to get rides to church, of all places to go. It`s not like she`s out doing something inappropriate. And that night, nobody was there to kick Onstott out.

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, the mother was obviously neglectful. Now, either she was working hard and trying to support herself, but it sounds like there was neglect and she was absent. And probably Child Protective Services should have been called by somebody if they were aware of the situation.

But what`s so particularly sad is you have this girl who`s looking for a surrogate family, and looking for a way to be healthy, and to heal, and to get out of an unhealthy situation. And she wasn`t able to escape, because of the way the family system was designed.

That`s what`s so tragic. Here`s a girl who was looking to get out and be healthy and seemed to be doing all the right things. And that`s why we need adults in our life to take care of us.

GRACE: Mercedes Colwin, defense attorney, a lot of people are saying tonight is not a time to attack the mother. Well, the girl is dead. The mother was AWOL, missing in action. And I could easily see charges coming down against her for neglect. What do you think?

MERCEDES COLWIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. I mean, I tell you, I have such rage against that mother for what she did. Because as a parent, you have to protect your child.

And I have plenty of single friends who are out here in New York City, and they look to who they`re dating, and they don`t expose whomever they`re dating to their children until well into the relationship, because they know they are to protect their children.

So certainly as a prosecutor, when I worked at the Queens D.A.`s office, Alice Vachss, who was the district attorney at the time, the assistant district attorney of sex crimes, she would prosecute the mothers, as well as the fathers, if she showed any neglect towards...

GRACE: Well, I don`t want to take away any of the blame from Onstott. He is the one that police say committed murder. The mother was just missing in action that Saturday night, the whole day long.

Let`s see. The whole night long Saturday night, the whole day long Sunday. Finally, they decide to report the little girl missing on Monday. That`s a heck of a note.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m angry. I`m just very angry. This guy is going to burn. God`s going to take care of him. Sarah was very close to us. She shouldn`t have had to die or go this way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE OBER, HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY STATE ATTORNEY: They`re the most despicable crimes that an individual can commit. And of course, if you have that type of event coupled with the homicide of a child, they`re terrible, terrible cases. This community is heartbroken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Quickly, back down to Florida, to CNN correspondent Rick Sanchez. Rick, do we know if Sarah was sexually assaulted? And what was the cause of death?

SANCHEZ: At this point, they`re not saying. They`re waiting for the autopsy report to be released, Nancy. At that point, we might find out if there was any indication that she was sexually assaulted in any way.

All we know at this point is that they found her at the bottom of a pond. Interestingly enough, this area where we live right now, there are many fish ponds in the area. And she was at the very bottom of one of those.

We do know, according to the police, that she had been weighted down. We also know that she was partially disrobed. Whether that happened as a result of the attack, the scuffle, the fight, or the fact that she was put in the pond, is something that police are going to have to release the details on later.

GRACE: Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick, how would her clothes be torn off during the, as you say, "scuffle"? I mean, a grown man and a 13-year-old girl, what kind of scuffle is that? That`s like putting perfume on a pig. A scuffle? Are you kidding me? This wasn`t a scuffle.

SANCHEZ: Well, and you make a good point, Nancy, because I`ve talked to some of folks who know her very well. And I especially talked to some of the folks you were talking to a little while ago, and that is the reverend and his wife.

And they have indicated to me that the way she was -- I mean, as they left her now, she was a very peaceful gal. She was not someone to be starting arguments with anyone. So they say if there was any kind of altercation, they`re absolutely positive that it was not started by Sarah, their words.

GRACE: Robi?

LUDWIG: I mean, one thought I had is that maybe there was sexual molestation going on before, prior to this incident, and maybe he tried to come on to her. And since she had some connection to the church, he could have said, "If you come on to me, I`m going to tell people that I have connections to," and it could have threatened him.

GRACE: Let me quickly go back to Dino Lombardi. Dino, in the state of Florida, of course, they`re not shy about seeking the death penalty.

LOMBARDI: No, they`re not.

GRACE: But do we have to have a rape or some type of sexual assault as an aggravating circumstance? We could have kidnapping.

LOMBARDI: Yes, they don`t have to have a rape. Or it basically doesn`t have to be a felony murder, I don`t think, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, what other grounds would there be?

LOMBARDI: Well, the manner, the extreme -- if they find extreme brutality, that`s a circumstance under Florida law.

GRACE: Right.

LOMBARDI: And I think, given his background, given the circumstances of this, her age, the nature of the whole thing, they may well find a way to bring a death penalty prosecution here.

GRACE: Find a way? Find a way? Like they`ve got to look? Like it`s going to be hard?

LOMBARDI: Well, no, no, they`re going to look. They`re going to look at that and not need a felony murder ground to pin a death penalty prosecution. I would be very surprised if they didn`t bring a death penalty prosecution.

GRACE: Well, another issue to Rick Sanchez is -- of course, we`re waiting on the autopsy. But the reason I`m talking about a sexual assault, Rick, is that, if another felony was being committed at the time of the death, that could qualify as death penalty in the state of Florida, such as rape, murder, kidnap-murder, that would qualify.

Also, why are they being so coy, Rick? Why haven`t they announced if they are or are not seeking the death penalty? And is it true he gave a confession?

SANCHEZ: Well, because, as you know, Nancy, oftentimes when we cover cases like this, they jump the gun and then they have some defense attorney who will come in and say, "You know, you`re going a little too fast here, and we`re going to look for some mistakes." So I think they`re going to be able to try and do everything possible to dot their i`s and cross their t`s.

But you know, there`s something in the state of Florida about repeat offenders, too. And when you look at his particular case load, or his past, sexual battery, 1995, convicted, served six years, got out six years later. And then, according to police officials, he was charged with attacking a man with a machete. He was able to beat that case, in fact, he was acquitted there. And then they had another case...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. Did I hear you say machete? Machete?

SANCHEZ: Yes, I talked to -- I had a long conversation...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What was he doing out walking around? I don`t get it. You`ve got a sexual battery. He did six years. Then he comes out, and gets a machete?

SANCHEZ: He got into a fight with someone who he says was attacking him while he was sleeping. The only way he said he was able to defend himself was to be able to get a machete that he found on a yard worker at the time and he used that machete against that other man. His attorney says it was a clear case of self-defense, and a jury, in all fairness, agreed with that.

GRACE: Self-defense with a machete. You know, just the fact that you would have a machete to me raises a red flag.

Very quickly, Rick Sanchez, I`ve only got 30 seconds left. When is his next court appearance?

SANCHEZ: We`ve been hearing from officials that they haven`t decided yet exactly when his next court appearance could be. As you know, he had a court appearance this morning when he appeared before a judge. We`re still waiting for police to get some of the very latest details on that.

GRACE: Rick Sanchez, thank you so much.

SANCHEZ: They`re being cautious.

GRACE: Yes, yes, they really are. And I`m anxious to find out the cause of death and the condition of little Sarah`s body. Thank you, friend.

Very quickly, to "Trial Tracking": Families and friends of a suspected cop-killer, Esteban Carpio, reacted strongly today in a Rhode Island courtroom when they saw him for the first time since his arrest. He is charged with gunning down Detective James Allen inside the Providence police headquarters on Sunday.

He was being questioned on another crime when police say he grabbed a cop`s gun and opened fire. He then jumped from a third floor window and fled. His family claims police brutality.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Initially, when we went to the hospital and talked to the police, they said he only had a leg injury. It`s a minor laceration. They wouldn`t let us see him. Seeing him now, his whole face is just massacred.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The trial of Michael Jackson still raging on in a Santa Maria, California, courtroom. The boy accuser`s mother still on the stand under cross-examination. Apparently, she is giving as good as she gets.

Tonight, in Santa Maria, California, from "The Insider," Art Harris. But first, to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, how did the mom hold up today under cross?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": I got to tell you, Nancy, they went at it again today. In fact, there should have been a fight card that said "Mesereau versus the mom." They both scored quite a few points.

Tom Mesereau, very effective in trying to portray this mother as an attention-seeking, celebrity-seeking, money-grabbing woman who can`t be trusted to tell the truth. But for her part, she gave a number of very dramatic speeches on the stand.

At one point she said, "Michael Jackson has managed to fool the world, and now because of this criminal case, the world knows who he really is." And believe it or not, the judge let that comment stand, even though the defense wanted it to be struck.

GRACE: You know, to Art Harris, very often the more the attorneys haggle and argue in front of the jury over a particular statement, the more the jury remembers it. I mean, once it`s out, it`s out. If you tangle over it in front of the jury, they only pay that much more attention to it.

Art, isn`t it true that her story that she is telling now, even though she`s fumbling under cross-exam, is the same story she told years ago?

ART HARRIS, "THE INSIDER": That`s right, Nancy. Actually, in 2003, I obtained a copy of a police videotape where detectives who are on the team now interviewed her outside Santa Maria and she told the same story she`s telling now.

Mesereau has been referring to that, but only in specifics, trying to get her to trip herself up. But if you look at the whole tape -- and the prosecutors could use that tape to shore her credibility up with her own statements. It`s an option.

GRACE: Hmm, interesting. And back to you, Jane Velez-Mitchell, any reaction from the jury during the mom`s testimony?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they were scribbling very furiously today. I have to say, there is a rift here in the media. Some people are completely discounting her and saying, "Oh, she`s just a liar. She has no credibility." Others are saying, "Listen, she`s an uneducated woman. She doesn`t know what a lot of key words are," like extortion, for instance. She didn`t know what that meant. We have to kind of translate and try to figure out what she means.

I think the jury could be having a similar rift, with maybe some of the higher-educated people, discounting her testimony. And some of the blue-collar types sort of translating as to what she`s trying to say, not what she`s actually saying word-for-word.

Jane Velez, take a listen to this. This is Jackson`s "60 Minutes" interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: Well, what`s wrong with sharing your bed? I didn`t say I slept in the bed. Even if I did sleep in the bed, it`s OK. I am not going to do anything sexual to a child. That`s not where my heart is. I will slit my wrists first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, Dino Lombardi, that`s not what the civil action filed and paid -- that was paid out, $20 million on one claim, $2 million-plus on another claim, now this one.

LOMBARDI: Right. And that`s a lot of money to then claim afterwards it doesn`t contain some kind of implicit admission of wrongdoing.

But you know, I think it`s one thing for a witness on the stand to be getting speeches out. It`s another thing for her to be giving as good as Tom Mesereau. I think Mesereau is not really trying to show that the story she came up with a couple of years ago is changing here on the stand. I think he`s trying to show that the story she said then, the story she said now, is not worthy of belief. And I think he`s probably accomplishing that task.

GRACE: Quick break. We`ll go straight back out to Santa Maria, California, in just one moment when we get back.

But I want to remind you, we at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Jennifer Servo, beautiful. She had her whole life ahead of her.

She was found beaten and strangled in the bathroom of her apartment, just 22-years-old. Police still have not been able to find her killer. Take a look, Jennifer Servo.

If you have any information on Jennifer Servo, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation at 888-813-8389. It`s a toll-free number. And there could be a reward in connection with information on Jennifer Servo. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Parents have power over children. They feel they have to do what their parents say. But money is the root of all evil, as you know. The love of money is the root of all evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is sound from Michael Jackson`s first public response to the child molestation charges.

Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. We are live at the Santa Maria courthouse here in California.

But I want to go to Marc Klaas. He is a victims rights advocate.

Marc, what do you think about the case so far?

KLAAS: Well, that`s a good question.

Obviously, watching this guy Michael Jackson and listening to some of the things that he says about bringing children into his bed and the fact that people are out to get him, he`s a very -- kind of an unsavory and uncomfortable character. But what I have found is, more and more, in this case and in the last case, we`re focusing on the mothers of these kids.

And although these women may not be perfect women, they had children involved that either were victims or, in this case, if the patterns that seem to be getting established prove out, this child is a victim, too. And we seem to be losing focus of that, that there`s a dead girl. There`s a little boy who is being dragged through the mud, as is his family. And we have to -- what we have to do is serve justice, whether the perpetrator is a psychopathic monster, like the fellow in Florida, or the fellows in Florida, or whether he`s some kind of a celebrity profile, as Michael Jackson may turn out to be.

This is about the kids. It`s not about the mothers.

GRACE: You know, that`s a good point, Marc Klaas.

I want to go back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, even if the jury agrees with the press, which I have found quite often not to be the case, even if they do agree that this mom has made an erratic appearance on the stand, how much does that take away from the molestation charges?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she is the linchpin of the conspiracy case, Nancy. And it`s believed, if the conspiracy case goes down the drain, that`s certainly going to bleed over or poison the case in general. But I have to tell you that there could be some corroborating evidence coming up for her wild and crazy story.

For example, what if they actually had a script? Well, one source tells me that there may be at least a partial script of this rebuttal video that she said she had to memorize. If prosecutors were able to bring that out and show it to the jury, that could really back up at least part of her story.

GRACE: To you, Art Harris. If they come up with a script that Jackson allegedly wanted this family to read to make him look good, to make him look like he did not molest children, I mean, wasn`t that the whole point of the rebuttal video, Art?

HARRIS: Absolutely, Nancy.

And it may be hard to believe that this woman says she was rehearsed 10 times for this so-called script. You know, she was doing improv on that tape. That is what it appeared to me. She knew the theme they want from her, purportedly, and she gave it. But if they have got a script, sure, that will help.

But, Nancy, you know from prosecuting criminal cases, there`s no perfect witness, especially when you`re going after -- and she`s not a felon, but when you`re using unsavory characters. Feds get convictions all the times with drug dealers, hitmen. And, today, Ron Zonen, the deputy DA, went a long way in resurrecting her at the end. He went back to the J.C. Penney`s case, in which she`s alleged to have gotten and she admitted getting more than $150,000 for her and her family.

But he showed bruises from what you could call guards gone wild in that parking lot. And she looked like a battered woman, did not come from her husband, she said. She went to the hospital the next morning. Pictures were taken. And this had quite an impact at the end of the day, Nancy. I have to say, you looked at those photos and you said, wow.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know what? You know what? Just hear me out on this, Art. If some rich, white, educated woman drove up in her Mercedes to J.C. Penney`s and they grabbed her and said she had been shoplifting and left bruises on her, I guarantee you, there wouldn`t be this discussion tonight. All right?

This is a minority woman, uneducated, low-income, unsophisticated. So, suddenly, she must have got over on a big corporation like J.C. Penney`s? Art, you know if it was a rich, white female, educated, this would never be an issue. Everybody would be outraged at Penney`s security.

HARRIS: Nancy, it was this woman against Tom Mesereau. Look at that disparity in education. And she did hold her own in that part, in that point.

And, actually, when Ron Zonen, was questioning her, explained that she wasn`t even at J.C. Penney`s, she came out of a job interview nearby, went across the street, saw her husband getting beat up, saw her kids injured, and asked what was going on. And then she gets attacked. And the police reports were -- back that up and the case was dismissed. The charges were dropped.

So, this was very interesting, when you had heard the whole story of a woman, grifter mom allegedly, telling this shake-down cruise to the jury, she was able to get her ship back on course.

GRACE: Yes. So, Art, what charges are you talking about were dropped?

HARRIS: There were charges against her for battery, for shoplifting. And she wasn`t even in the store. So, those charges were dropped, Zonen pointed out, along with everything else.

GRACE: You know what? You know what is so amazing? Art, I`m glad you straightened that out for me.

Why is it, Mercedes Colwin, we never hear that side of the story about this J.C. Penney`s incident? Why is that?

COLWIN: I think a lot of it has to do with the way it`s being covered, frankly.

I mean, I think there is a lot of criticism, but I think it`s well- founded criticism, Nancy, because you look at some of the things that she has done.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, let`s talk about the J.C. Penney`s. She`s the one that got the $150,000 reward. She`s the one that had the bruises. The charges against her were dropped by police.

COLWIN: She admits during this trial that she admitted that she did - - that she used her children and that she did exaggerate the injuries in order to gain financial benefit from this case. I mean, if we look at this case, she doesn`t come out squeaky-clean.

GRACE: No, she really doesn`t.

COLWIN: She comes across and saying, you know, she manipulated her children. She did it for financial gain. Those are the theories that Mesereau has to be able to look at this jury and say, this is exactly what she`s doing here.

And you know what? One of these salvos that she said, she looked at Michael Jackson. She said, I don`t need your money, Michael Jackson. Of course she doesn`t. Because how many books will she write? How many shows will she appear on? How many movies will be done about this case? So, there has to be a lot said about whether she has some financial incentive. Maybe she won`t bring a lawsuit against Michael Jackson.

GRACE: You know what, Mercedes? Why don`t we just deal with the here and now? As of right now, there is no book. There is no movie. OK? Nothing. So that is all speculation on what may happen.

And let me remind everybody, the `93 accuser won`t even show his face. OK? There`s no book. There`s no movie from him. So, there`s no way you can predict that this is all about money.

And, very quickly, back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, was it made that clear in court the outcome of the J.C. Penney`s incident?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it depends who you talk to.

I mean, Tom Mesereau points out that she lied during a deposition, said her husband never beat her, and then, afterwards, she said many times her husband had beaten her for years. So, he`s implying that maybe some of the injuries she received could have been from her husband. And, of course, the prosecution trying to make the point that, no, these injuries were sustained immediately after this incident.

And what I found really interesting is that she had just gotten a job at this mall. And after she was released and she was all bloodied and battered, she went to take a drug test, so that she could still get this job, which I think showed really true grit on her part, if in fact it`s true, that she was a woman interested in making some money to help support her family.

GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, that really beats all. After all that that she went through out in the parking lot, she went to go try to get her little job.

KLAAS: You know, listen, I`m just absolutely appalled that these defense attorneys will sit here and vilify this woman and just speculate on the things that she might or might not do.

She has stated time and again that this is not about money, that this is about the molestation of her son. Yet, they keep pointing the finger back at her and the things that she did. This is just absolutely outrageous. It`s outrageous in all of these cases. This is a revictimization time and time again. I just -- I just throw my hands up at this kind of activity.

GRACE: Marc, Marc, but you can`t throw your hands up, because someone has got to keep speaking out on behalf of this family. They`re under a gag order.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And they don`t have a Web site, like Michael Jackson does, whenever he feels like talking.

KLAAS: No, that`s absolutely true. That`s absolutely true.

GRACE: Hey. Hey, Marc, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Greed, money. Somewhere, greed got in there and somebody -- I can`t quite say, but it has to do with money. It`s Michael Jackson. Look what we have here. We can get money out of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: After losing over $22 million in settlements over other alleged child molestation, why did he keep sleeping with boys? That was from Jackson`s first public response to the earlier child molestation -- no, to these child molestation charges.

And also take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: One time I asked to use the restroom. And they said, sure, it`s around the corner there. Once I went in the restroom, they locked me in there for like 45 minutes. There was doo-doo, feces thrown all over the walls, the floor, the ceiling. And it stunk so bad. And one of the policemen came by the window and he made a sarcastic remark. He said, does it smell good enough for you in there? How do you like the smell? Is it good?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Also from Jackson`s response.

Hey, Jane Velez-Mitchell, weren`t you the one that told me that Jackson`s maid, who made about $7 an hour, had to clean monkey poop off his bedroom wall and change the monkey`s diapers? A little more than in the job description, OK? Is that right?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that was her testimony.

GRACE: That was you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In fact, a couple of the housekeepers testified they were bitten by the monkey. So, another one, another man, the majordomo, testified he had to deliver french fries at 3:00 in the morning.

While Michael Jackson has certainly been noted for his generosity to charitable causes, there are some humiliations that some of the employees said they had to endure.

GRACE: Well, another thing I would like to point out very quickly is, also, after his arrest, Jackson claimed that there was police brutality. That has been totally discounted. I wonder if Jackson`s going to take the stand and be forced to discuss that on cross-examination.

Quick break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back.

We are live in California in the Michael Jackson case. Before we switch gears to the missing prosecutor -- he vanished into thin air -- very quickly back to Art Harris.

Art, I find it just such a convergence of events and coincidence that Jackson is complaining about feces on the wall in the jail when he got arrested; yet, according to Jane Velez, he lived like that with a darn monkey in the bedroom.

HARRIS: Not only that, Nancy, but I`ve gotten totally different stories from people I have interviewed who were in jail with him. I broke the attorney general`s report that investigated that.

They interview 87 people. And one inmate who was there at the jail told me that it was the most courteous booking he`d ever seen. I asked him, well, how can you say that? He said, well, I`ve been booked three times in the last seven months and I ought to know.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Well, there`s an expert.

And, also, remember, he had as an escort Mark Geragos. You know the police weren`t going to do a thing wrong with Geragos in tow.

To all my Jackson guests tonight, see you soon, Jane Velez-Mitchell and Art Harris there at the courthouse. The panel is staying on.

Bye, friends.

I want to switch gears very quickly. A felony prosecutor has gone missing, vanished seemingly into thin air.

Tonight, on the phone from Bellefonte, Pennsylvania, WTHA reporter Chris Cekot.

Hi, Chris. Bring us up to date, friend.

CHRIS CEKOT, WTHA REPORTER: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for having me on the show.

GRACE: Hey. What can you tell me, Chris?

CEKOT: Well, here`s what we know so far.

District attorney Ray Gricar, he`s been the prosecutor here in Centre County for about 20 years now. They haven`t heard from him since Friday at 11:30 in the morning. He had called into his office, telling folks he was taking the day off. He was driving out of town to an adjacent county and basically hasn`t been heard from since.

GRACE: Take a listen. This is what his girlfriend had to say.

CEKOT: She addressed the media...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATTY FORNICOLA, RAY GRICAR`S LONGTIME GIRLFRIEND: Ray, I love you very much. And I miss you. I want for you to come home. Please call us. We will wait for as long as we need to. For everyone else, again, if you have seen Ray, please contact the police, your local police, as quickly as you can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let me go back to WTHA reporter Chris Cekot.

Chris, that was the girlfriend of the missing prosecutor speaking out. When was he last seen? Where was he headed?

CEKOT: Police tell he was headed towards the Lewisburg area. That`s about 40 minutes or so east of where we are, in the Bellefonte area. Supposedly, he was taking a country drive, was headed towards an antique store. And, again, that`s the last that anybody`s heard from District Attorney Gricar.

GRACE: Any cell phone calls?

CEKOT: He did make a cell phone call Friday morning at 11:30. And that`s when he let folks in his office know that he was taking the day off and heading out on a drive. Since then, no sightings and no word from Gricar.

GRACE: Any activity on his credit cards?

CEKOT: We`re told the FBI is involved in the case and specifically they`re looking at any bank account activity, things like that, but, so far, no word on if any money has been moving around in his account.

GRACE: Here is what his daughter had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARA GRICAR, DAUGHTER OF RAY GRICAR: I want you to know that I will wait for as long as it takes to hear from you. I miss you so much. And I love you. And please call.

To everyone else out there, if you have seen my father, if you could please contact the police.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to WTHA reporter Chris Cekot.

Chris, what kind of a prosecutor was he? What kind of cases did he handle? How long had he been a prosecutor?

CEKOT: Well, again, Mr. Gricar had been a prosecutor for 20 years here in Centre County. Before he came to our area, he was a prosecutor in Ohio. He`s been involved in many high-profile cases, including capital murder cases.

We do know that he was opposed to the death penalty, often would ask for co-counsel once a capital murder case reached that stage.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police have to say about the case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DUANE DIXON, BELLEFONTE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Of course, this is getting more attention due to the position of Mr. Gricar, being a county prosecutor, the head prosecutor in the county and having dealt with numerous individuals in his past. Everything has to be looked at a little differently because of his position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Chris, where are police searching now?

CEKOT: Well, right now, police are looking in Union County. That`s, again, where the Lewisburg area is.

They have found his car in that area, but, again, no signs of District Attorney Gricar. They`ve had helicopters involved. They`ve also had dogs looking in the area, but, again, no signs of the district attorney.

GRACE: We`re taking a look at the car. Could you show, Elizabeth (ph), the shot of the missing prosecutor, Gricar, one more time before we go to break? There`s the car. And I`m looking for the head shot. There we go.

Take a look, everybody, felony prosecutor missing since this weekend.

As we go to break, let`s go to tonight`s all-points bulletin. The FBI and law enforcement across the country are looking for 54-year-old Alvin Scott, wanted in connection with the shooting deaths of his wife and one of her friends in Atlanta August 2001. The FBI says Scott may be armed and dangerous, is a possible suicide risk. Scott, 6 feet tall, 170 pounds, gray hair. If you have any information on Alvin Scott, contact the FBI, 404-679-9000. There is a reward.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back.

As you know by now, a felony prosecutor missing, last seen over the weekend, has totally disappeared seemingly into thin air. I believe it was Friday morning he was last seen.

Very quickly to Dino Lombardi.

You know, following the attack on Judge Rowland Barnes, his court reporter, Julie Brandau.

LOMBARDI: Yes.

GRACE: Then there was Judge Lefkow, her family.

LOMBARDI: Sure.

GRACE: There have been many, many others.

LOMBARDI: There have been, Nancy.

And it happens more in this country than I think we as Americans would like to think. Sometimes, we think it happens in Colombia or places like that. But when I was a young prosecutor in Queens, in the mid `80s, at the outset of the violent crack gangs, a probation officer was basically assassinated by a Jamaican drug gang. And the prosecutor, a good friend and colleague of mine, and the judge on the case, an old-time Queens judge, received death threats. And this was a gang that had already proven they could carry these out.

They went to court and to and from home every day with an armed guard and with bulletproof vests. It was a shocking thing to see. And, again, it happens. We`ve seen the Atlanta thing recently. But it happens sometimes and you never hear about it. And the risks that are run in that profession are great, even in this country.

GRACE: And, of course, I think I`ve still got Marc Klaas with me.

Marc, are you with me?

OK, don`t have Marc.

Mercedes Colwin, I don`t know, maybe is it just the cost of doing business as a prosecutor now in 2005?

COLWIN: I think it`s amazing that some people still continue to prosecute cases, considering all of the media attention on these crimes.

But I also think that, before we look at this case and say this is possible homicide, there have been -- and I remember this in the last 18 to 24 months -- there was another prosecutor that they suspected foul play and, as it turns out, he took his own life. I can`t recall the name as I say this to you.

So, I think everyone`s going to have to look beyond perhaps foul play and say perhaps -- that he may have taken his life.

GRACE: We`ll find out.

Quick break, everyone. We are headed out. I want to thank all of my guests, remember, our guests earlier on the Jackson panel as well.

But my biggest thank you to you for being with us tonight, inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from around the world.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern.

And, until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired April 18, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a heartbreaking ending to the search for 13-year-old girl, Sarah Michelle Lunde. Sarah went missing last Saturday, last seen following a church youth meeting. Then she went to her own home.
This weekend, the 13-year-old girl`s body was found submerged nearby in a fish pond. Convicted sex offender David Onstott, who dated Sarah`s mother, tonight stands charged with murder one.

And in the Michael Jackson child sex trial, the alleged victim`s mom is back on the stand. Cross-examination is raging in that court of law. The boy`s mother apparently is giving as good as she gets.

And in Pennsylvania, a prominent prosecutor goes missing without a trace.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

In the Michael Jackson child sex trial, the boy accuser`s mother is on the stand, day two of cross-exam. And tonight in Pennsylvania, a massive manhunt underway for a felony prosecutor missing since Friday. Ray Gricar went for a drive to a nearby town antiquing. He never came home.

But first, the intense search for 13-year-old Sarah Michelle Lunde is over. Sarah`s body, found in a nearby pond, only a half-mile from her Florida home. Sarah went missing last Saturday night, remember, after she opened the front door to an unregistered -- repeat, unregistered -- convicted sex offender, David Onstott.

Onstott, as of tonight, has confessed he strangled the little girl to death. He`s being held tonight without bond, charged with murder one.

With us tonight, in Ruskin, Florida, little Sarah`s surrogate dad, Pastor Johnny Cook; in San Francisco, victims` rights advocate Marc Klaas; in New York, defense attorneys Dino Lombardi and Mercedes Cohen, and psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

But first, let`s go to Florida and CNN correspondent Rick Sanchez.

Rick, what`s the latest, friend?

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It`s an amazing story.

It involves a little girl who was doing everything possible to try and change her life, who really came from some very difficult obstacles, and yet somehow, Nancy, was able to pull it all together, despite the obstacles, despite everything that she`d been up against, and had really found in many ways her own salvation by getting so tied to the people who operate this church. This is the First Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ here in Ruskin, Florida.

And we have found out now, as you had said earlier in the show, that indeed police have not original found her body but they`re now charging a man who had dated her mother several months back who had finally shown up one night, as you have probably heard by now. Showing up at her house to ask for her mother, and instead the little girl was there. Little Sarah Lunde was there.

She was all alone, Nancy. And because she was all alone, police say a scuffle broke out of some form. We don`t know why. We don`t have many of the specifics on that. But we do know that there was quite a scuffle...

GRACE: Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick, how can you say -- was the little girl half...

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: ... found a couple blocks away. It was found in a pond, a fish pond. It had been weighted down. And police are saying that they definitely have their man.

GRACE: With us is Rick Sanchez.

Let me quickly go to Dino Lombardi, defense attorney.

Dino, this scuffle business, I don`t think Rick could hear me. This scuffle business obviously is a ruse. Dino, the little girl was found half-naked. What kind of a scuffle is that?

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, I mean, a scuffle between a grown man with a violent past and a young girl, no, that`s really not an issue here. I mean, it looks like an open-and-shut case, obviously...

GRACE: Oh, that`s the first time I`ve heard that from you.

LOMBARDI: Well, I said looks like. And now, obviously, you know, this is the second time this has happened in as many months in Florida. I know you would agree me, Nancy, due process has to take its course.

The confession we`re hearing about has to be looked at to see if it`s a reliable confession, a real confession. The autopsy will yield some evidence. But I think the defense in this case is going to have to be very careful to make sure that what they are looking for...

GRACE: Right.

LOMBARDI: ... is perhaps to spare him the death penalty and that`s about it.

GRACE: Very quickly to Marc Klaas. As you know, Marc`s little girl went missing, was kidnapped, ultimately, murdered.

Marc Klaas, what about this mother? Where was she? I was talking to Rick Sanchez earlier. Marc, this little girl had to basically hitchhike to get to church. She had to go around the neighborhood begging for rides to get to church. Where was the mother the night she went missing?

Remember, the little girl came home after a church event, Marc Klaas, Saturday night. The brother, 17-years-old, was there. The girl was gone Sunday morning.

The mom didn`t drag home until -- when was it, Rick Sanchez? When did the mom come home finally?

SANCHEZ: We`re told the mother came home like a day later after the incident. And she didn`t report it to police at least that long. So that`s obviously a major part of the story that police have looked into.

But obviously, you know, it`s hard to second-guess in that situation. The fact of the matter is, that the mother had a relationship with that man. I talked to some friends today who were saying, well, it wasn`t really a relationship. Obviously, there was something going on several months ago.

GRACE: Back to Marc Klaas.

Marc, the mother didn`t come home for days on end. Then they didn`t report the girl missing. This is a lot different from the last case we covered. That little girl -- remember Jessica Lunsford?

MARC KLAAS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Sure.

GRACE: She lived with her grandmother. It wasn`t as if she was under her own supervision, like this girl was.

KLAAS: But it was not that unlike the case that happened in Iowa not long ago, where the sex offender was invited into the home.

The reality is, is that parents, an awful lot of people in this country, shouldn`t be parents to begin with. And when they are parents, they don`t take the responsibility to raise their children in the way that you or I, or so many others would. And they leave these children to their own devices.

Thank goodness little Sarah had found sanctuary in the church. Thank goodness there were wonderful people like her pastor who took her in. But even then, he`s very, very limited in what he can do, since he doesn`t have any kind of parental custody.

GRACE: Well, Marc, the pastor, who is with us tonight, couldn`t throw Onstott out of the house when he came a-knockin`.

And I want to go to Reverend Johnny Cook. Reverend, is it true this little girl had to get to church all on her own, her parents wouldn`t even -- mother wouldn`t even bother to give her a ride?

PASTOR JOHNNY COOK, SARAH LUNDE`S SURROGATE FATHER: No, if she was home, she would bring her. If she didn`t have a way, she would always call us to come and get her.

GRACE: What does the mother do for a living, Reverend?

COOK: I`m not really sure of that.

GRACE: When did you get the news, Reverend, that Sarah`s body had been found?

COOK: We got the news when the sheriff had announced -- just prior to him announcing that they had found a body but wasn`t sure of who it was, but let us know that they were fixing to go out and tell the public about the situation, probably just a few minutes before.

GRACE: Let me get my director.

Renee (ph), could you show that shot again of Sarah with her little green cast on her arm? When I heard that the body found had a green cast on it, obviously, it was this girl.

Reverend Cook, did Sarah ever tell you what she wanted to be when she grew up?

COOK: She had always just let us know that she wanted to be a great servant in the church and to sing. And she was just doing all of that. She was great, great in coming to church, and supporting everybody, and loving everybody. So we just worked with her.

GRACE: Well, you know, Dr. Robi Ludwig is with us. You know, I didn`t have a way out. My mom was the youth fellowship leader, and my father was the Sunday school teacher. OK, so -- but it seems to me so odd that the mother doesn`t come home.

This child has to go around the neighborhood to get rides to church, of all places to go. It`s not like she`s out doing something inappropriate. And that night, nobody was there to kick Onstott out.

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, the mother was obviously neglectful. Now, either she was working hard and trying to support herself, but it sounds like there was neglect and she was absent. And probably Child Protective Services should have been called by somebody if they were aware of the situation.

But what`s so particularly sad is you have this girl who`s looking for a surrogate family, and looking for a way to be healthy, and to heal, and to get out of an unhealthy situation. And she wasn`t able to escape, because of the way the family system was designed.

That`s what`s so tragic. Here`s a girl who was looking to get out and be healthy and seemed to be doing all the right things. And that`s why we need adults in our life to take care of us.

GRACE: Mercedes Colwin, defense attorney, a lot of people are saying tonight is not a time to attack the mother. Well, the girl is dead. The mother was AWOL, missing in action. And I could easily see charges coming down against her for neglect. What do you think?

MERCEDES COLWIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. I mean, I tell you, I have such rage against that mother for what she did. Because as a parent, you have to protect your child.

And I have plenty of single friends who are out here in New York City, and they look to who they`re dating, and they don`t expose whomever they`re dating to their children until well into the relationship, because they know they are to protect their children.

So certainly as a prosecutor, when I worked at the Queens D.A.`s office, Alice Vachss, who was the district attorney at the time, the assistant district attorney of sex crimes, she would prosecute the mothers, as well as the fathers, if she showed any neglect towards...

GRACE: Well, I don`t want to take away any of the blame from Onstott. He is the one that police say committed murder. The mother was just missing in action that Saturday night, the whole day long.

Let`s see. The whole night long Saturday night, the whole day long Sunday. Finally, they decide to report the little girl missing on Monday. That`s a heck of a note.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I`m angry. I`m just very angry. This guy is going to burn. God`s going to take care of him. Sarah was very close to us. She shouldn`t have had to die or go this way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE OBER, HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY STATE ATTORNEY: They`re the most despicable crimes that an individual can commit. And of course, if you have that type of event coupled with the homicide of a child, they`re terrible, terrible cases. This community is heartbroken.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us.

Quickly, back down to Florida, to CNN correspondent Rick Sanchez. Rick, do we know if Sarah was sexually assaulted? And what was the cause of death?

SANCHEZ: At this point, they`re not saying. They`re waiting for the autopsy report to be released, Nancy. At that point, we might find out if there was any indication that she was sexually assaulted in any way.

All we know at this point is that they found her at the bottom of a pond. Interestingly enough, this area where we live right now, there are many fish ponds in the area. And she was at the very bottom of one of those.

We do know, according to the police, that she had been weighted down. We also know that she was partially disrobed. Whether that happened as a result of the attack, the scuffle, the fight, or the fact that she was put in the pond, is something that police are going to have to release the details on later.

GRACE: Rick, Rick, Rick, Rick, how would her clothes be torn off during the, as you say, "scuffle"? I mean, a grown man and a 13-year-old girl, what kind of scuffle is that? That`s like putting perfume on a pig. A scuffle? Are you kidding me? This wasn`t a scuffle.

SANCHEZ: Well, and you make a good point, Nancy, because I`ve talked to some of folks who know her very well. And I especially talked to some of the folks you were talking to a little while ago, and that is the reverend and his wife.

And they have indicated to me that the way she was -- I mean, as they left her now, she was a very peaceful gal. She was not someone to be starting arguments with anyone. So they say if there was any kind of altercation, they`re absolutely positive that it was not started by Sarah, their words.

GRACE: Robi?

LUDWIG: I mean, one thought I had is that maybe there was sexual molestation going on before, prior to this incident, and maybe he tried to come on to her. And since she had some connection to the church, he could have said, "If you come on to me, I`m going to tell people that I have connections to," and it could have threatened him.

GRACE: Let me quickly go back to Dino Lombardi. Dino, in the state of Florida, of course, they`re not shy about seeking the death penalty.

LOMBARDI: No, they`re not.

GRACE: But do we have to have a rape or some type of sexual assault as an aggravating circumstance? We could have kidnapping.

LOMBARDI: Yes, they don`t have to have a rape. Or it basically doesn`t have to be a felony murder, I don`t think, Nancy.

GRACE: Well, what other grounds would there be?

LOMBARDI: Well, the manner, the extreme -- if they find extreme brutality, that`s a circumstance under Florida law.

GRACE: Right.

LOMBARDI: And I think, given his background, given the circumstances of this, her age, the nature of the whole thing, they may well find a way to bring a death penalty prosecution here.

GRACE: Find a way? Find a way? Like they`ve got to look? Like it`s going to be hard?

LOMBARDI: Well, no, no, they`re going to look. They`re going to look at that and not need a felony murder ground to pin a death penalty prosecution. I would be very surprised if they didn`t bring a death penalty prosecution.

GRACE: Well, another issue to Rick Sanchez is -- of course, we`re waiting on the autopsy. But the reason I`m talking about a sexual assault, Rick, is that, if another felony was being committed at the time of the death, that could qualify as death penalty in the state of Florida, such as rape, murder, kidnap-murder, that would qualify.

Also, why are they being so coy, Rick? Why haven`t they announced if they are or are not seeking the death penalty? And is it true he gave a confession?

SANCHEZ: Well, because, as you know, Nancy, oftentimes when we cover cases like this, they jump the gun and then they have some defense attorney who will come in and say, "You know, you`re going a little too fast here, and we`re going to look for some mistakes." So I think they`re going to be able to try and do everything possible to dot their i`s and cross their t`s.

But you know, there`s something in the state of Florida about repeat offenders, too. And when you look at his particular case load, or his past, sexual battery, 1995, convicted, served six years, got out six years later. And then, according to police officials, he was charged with attacking a man with a machete. He was able to beat that case, in fact, he was acquitted there. And then they had another case...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Whoa, wait a minute, wait a minute. Wait, wait, wait. Did I hear you say machete? Machete?

SANCHEZ: Yes, I talked to -- I had a long conversation...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What was he doing out walking around? I don`t get it. You`ve got a sexual battery. He did six years. Then he comes out, and gets a machete?

SANCHEZ: He got into a fight with someone who he says was attacking him while he was sleeping. The only way he said he was able to defend himself was to be able to get a machete that he found on a yard worker at the time and he used that machete against that other man. His attorney says it was a clear case of self-defense, and a jury, in all fairness, agreed with that.

GRACE: Self-defense with a machete. You know, just the fact that you would have a machete to me raises a red flag.

Very quickly, Rick Sanchez, I`ve only got 30 seconds left. When is his next court appearance?

SANCHEZ: We`ve been hearing from officials that they haven`t decided yet exactly when his next court appearance could be. As you know, he had a court appearance this morning when he appeared before a judge. We`re still waiting for police to get some of the very latest details on that.

GRACE: Rick Sanchez, thank you so much.

SANCHEZ: They`re being cautious.

GRACE: Yes, yes, they really are. And I`m anxious to find out the cause of death and the condition of little Sarah`s body. Thank you, friend.

Very quickly, to "Trial Tracking": Families and friends of a suspected cop-killer, Esteban Carpio, reacted strongly today in a Rhode Island courtroom when they saw him for the first time since his arrest. He is charged with gunning down Detective James Allen inside the Providence police headquarters on Sunday.

He was being questioned on another crime when police say he grabbed a cop`s gun and opened fire. He then jumped from a third floor window and fled. His family claims police brutality.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Initially, when we went to the hospital and talked to the police, they said he only had a leg injury. It`s a minor laceration. They wouldn`t let us see him. Seeing him now, his whole face is just massacred.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The trial of Michael Jackson still raging on in a Santa Maria, California, courtroom. The boy accuser`s mother still on the stand under cross-examination. Apparently, she is giving as good as she gets.

Tonight, in Santa Maria, California, from "The Insider," Art Harris. But first, to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, how did the mom hold up today under cross?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": I got to tell you, Nancy, they went at it again today. In fact, there should have been a fight card that said "Mesereau versus the mom." They both scored quite a few points.

Tom Mesereau, very effective in trying to portray this mother as an attention-seeking, celebrity-seeking, money-grabbing woman who can`t be trusted to tell the truth. But for her part, she gave a number of very dramatic speeches on the stand.

At one point she said, "Michael Jackson has managed to fool the world, and now because of this criminal case, the world knows who he really is." And believe it or not, the judge let that comment stand, even though the defense wanted it to be struck.

GRACE: You know, to Art Harris, very often the more the attorneys haggle and argue in front of the jury over a particular statement, the more the jury remembers it. I mean, once it`s out, it`s out. If you tangle over it in front of the jury, they only pay that much more attention to it.

Art, isn`t it true that her story that she is telling now, even though she`s fumbling under cross-exam, is the same story she told years ago?

ART HARRIS, "THE INSIDER": That`s right, Nancy. Actually, in 2003, I obtained a copy of a police videotape where detectives who are on the team now interviewed her outside Santa Maria and she told the same story she`s telling now.

Mesereau has been referring to that, but only in specifics, trying to get her to trip herself up. But if you look at the whole tape -- and the prosecutors could use that tape to shore her credibility up with her own statements. It`s an option.

GRACE: Hmm, interesting. And back to you, Jane Velez-Mitchell, any reaction from the jury during the mom`s testimony?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they were scribbling very furiously today. I have to say, there is a rift here in the media. Some people are completely discounting her and saying, "Oh, she`s just a liar. She has no credibility." Others are saying, "Listen, she`s an uneducated woman. She doesn`t know what a lot of key words are," like extortion, for instance. She didn`t know what that meant. We have to kind of translate and try to figure out what she means.

I think the jury could be having a similar rift, with maybe some of the higher-educated people, discounting her testimony. And some of the blue-collar types sort of translating as to what she`s trying to say, not what she`s actually saying word-for-word.

Jane Velez, take a listen to this. This is Jackson`s "60 Minutes" interview.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: Well, what`s wrong with sharing your bed? I didn`t say I slept in the bed. Even if I did sleep in the bed, it`s OK. I am not going to do anything sexual to a child. That`s not where my heart is. I will slit my wrists first.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, Dino Lombardi, that`s not what the civil action filed and paid -- that was paid out, $20 million on one claim, $2 million-plus on another claim, now this one.

LOMBARDI: Right. And that`s a lot of money to then claim afterwards it doesn`t contain some kind of implicit admission of wrongdoing.

But you know, I think it`s one thing for a witness on the stand to be getting speeches out. It`s another thing for her to be giving as good as Tom Mesereau. I think Mesereau is not really trying to show that the story she came up with a couple of years ago is changing here on the stand. I think he`s trying to show that the story she said then, the story she said now, is not worthy of belief. And I think he`s probably accomplishing that task.

GRACE: Quick break. We`ll go straight back out to Santa Maria, California, in just one moment when we get back.

But I want to remind you, we at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Jennifer Servo, beautiful. She had her whole life ahead of her.

She was found beaten and strangled in the bathroom of her apartment, just 22-years-old. Police still have not been able to find her killer. Take a look, Jennifer Servo.

If you have any information on Jennifer Servo, please call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation at 888-813-8389. It`s a toll-free number. And there could be a reward in connection with information on Jennifer Servo. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Parents have power over children. They feel they have to do what their parents say. But money is the root of all evil, as you know. The love of money is the root of all evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is sound from Michael Jackson`s first public response to the child molestation charges.

Welcome back. I`m Nancy Grace. We are live at the Santa Maria courthouse here in California.

But I want to go to Marc Klaas. He is a victims rights advocate.

Marc, what do you think about the case so far?

KLAAS: Well, that`s a good question.

Obviously, watching this guy Michael Jackson and listening to some of the things that he says about bringing children into his bed and the fact that people are out to get him, he`s a very -- kind of an unsavory and uncomfortable character. But what I have found is, more and more, in this case and in the last case, we`re focusing on the mothers of these kids.

And although these women may not be perfect women, they had children involved that either were victims or, in this case, if the patterns that seem to be getting established prove out, this child is a victim, too. And we seem to be losing focus of that, that there`s a dead girl. There`s a little boy who is being dragged through the mud, as is his family. And we have to -- what we have to do is serve justice, whether the perpetrator is a psychopathic monster, like the fellow in Florida, or the fellows in Florida, or whether he`s some kind of a celebrity profile, as Michael Jackson may turn out to be.

This is about the kids. It`s not about the mothers.

GRACE: You know, that`s a good point, Marc Klaas.

I want to go back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, even if the jury agrees with the press, which I have found quite often not to be the case, even if they do agree that this mom has made an erratic appearance on the stand, how much does that take away from the molestation charges?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, she is the linchpin of the conspiracy case, Nancy. And it`s believed, if the conspiracy case goes down the drain, that`s certainly going to bleed over or poison the case in general. But I have to tell you that there could be some corroborating evidence coming up for her wild and crazy story.

For example, what if they actually had a script? Well, one source tells me that there may be at least a partial script of this rebuttal video that she said she had to memorize. If prosecutors were able to bring that out and show it to the jury, that could really back up at least part of her story.

GRACE: To you, Art Harris. If they come up with a script that Jackson allegedly wanted this family to read to make him look good, to make him look like he did not molest children, I mean, wasn`t that the whole point of the rebuttal video, Art?

HARRIS: Absolutely, Nancy.

And it may be hard to believe that this woman says she was rehearsed 10 times for this so-called script. You know, she was doing improv on that tape. That is what it appeared to me. She knew the theme they want from her, purportedly, and she gave it. But if they have got a script, sure, that will help.

But, Nancy, you know from prosecuting criminal cases, there`s no perfect witness, especially when you`re going after -- and she`s not a felon, but when you`re using unsavory characters. Feds get convictions all the times with drug dealers, hitmen. And, today, Ron Zonen, the deputy DA, went a long way in resurrecting her at the end. He went back to the J.C. Penney`s case, in which she`s alleged to have gotten and she admitted getting more than $150,000 for her and her family.

But he showed bruises from what you could call guards gone wild in that parking lot. And she looked like a battered woman, did not come from her husband, she said. She went to the hospital the next morning. Pictures were taken. And this had quite an impact at the end of the day, Nancy. I have to say, you looked at those photos and you said, wow.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know what? You know what? Just hear me out on this, Art. If some rich, white, educated woman drove up in her Mercedes to J.C. Penney`s and they grabbed her and said she had been shoplifting and left bruises on her, I guarantee you, there wouldn`t be this discussion tonight. All right?

This is a minority woman, uneducated, low-income, unsophisticated. So, suddenly, she must have got over on a big corporation like J.C. Penney`s? Art, you know if it was a rich, white female, educated, this would never be an issue. Everybody would be outraged at Penney`s security.

HARRIS: Nancy, it was this woman against Tom Mesereau. Look at that disparity in education. And she did hold her own in that part, in that point.

And, actually, when Ron Zonen, was questioning her, explained that she wasn`t even at J.C. Penney`s, she came out of a job interview nearby, went across the street, saw her husband getting beat up, saw her kids injured, and asked what was going on. And then she gets attacked. And the police reports were -- back that up and the case was dismissed. The charges were dropped.

So, this was very interesting, when you had heard the whole story of a woman, grifter mom allegedly, telling this shake-down cruise to the jury, she was able to get her ship back on course.

GRACE: Yes. So, Art, what charges are you talking about were dropped?

HARRIS: There were charges against her for battery, for shoplifting. And she wasn`t even in the store. So, those charges were dropped, Zonen pointed out, along with everything else.

GRACE: You know what? You know what is so amazing? Art, I`m glad you straightened that out for me.

Why is it, Mercedes Colwin, we never hear that side of the story about this J.C. Penney`s incident? Why is that?

COLWIN: I think a lot of it has to do with the way it`s being covered, frankly.

I mean, I think there is a lot of criticism, but I think it`s well- founded criticism, Nancy, because you look at some of the things that she has done.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Well, let`s talk about the J.C. Penney`s. She`s the one that got the $150,000 reward. She`s the one that had the bruises. The charges against her were dropped by police.

COLWIN: She admits during this trial that she admitted that she did - - that she used her children and that she did exaggerate the injuries in order to gain financial benefit from this case. I mean, if we look at this case, she doesn`t come out squeaky-clean.

GRACE: No, she really doesn`t.

COLWIN: She comes across and saying, you know, she manipulated her children. She did it for financial gain. Those are the theories that Mesereau has to be able to look at this jury and say, this is exactly what she`s doing here.

And you know what? One of these salvos that she said, she looked at Michael Jackson. She said, I don`t need your money, Michael Jackson. Of course she doesn`t. Because how many books will she write? How many shows will she appear on? How many movies will be done about this case? So, there has to be a lot said about whether she has some financial incentive. Maybe she won`t bring a lawsuit against Michael Jackson.

GRACE: You know what, Mercedes? Why don`t we just deal with the here and now? As of right now, there is no book. There is no movie. OK? Nothing. So that is all speculation on what may happen.

And let me remind everybody, the `93 accuser won`t even show his face. OK? There`s no book. There`s no movie from him. So, there`s no way you can predict that this is all about money.

And, very quickly, back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, was it made that clear in court the outcome of the J.C. Penney`s incident?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it depends who you talk to.

I mean, Tom Mesereau points out that she lied during a deposition, said her husband never beat her, and then, afterwards, she said many times her husband had beaten her for years. So, he`s implying that maybe some of the injuries she received could have been from her husband. And, of course, the prosecution trying to make the point that, no, these injuries were sustained immediately after this incident.

And what I found really interesting is that she had just gotten a job at this mall. And after she was released and she was all bloodied and battered, she went to take a drug test, so that she could still get this job, which I think showed really true grit on her part, if in fact it`s true, that she was a woman interested in making some money to help support her family.

GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, that really beats all. After all that that she went through out in the parking lot, she went to go try to get her little job.

KLAAS: You know, listen, I`m just absolutely appalled that these defense attorneys will sit here and vilify this woman and just speculate on the things that she might or might not do.

She has stated time and again that this is not about money, that this is about the molestation of her son. Yet, they keep pointing the finger back at her and the things that she did. This is just absolutely outrageous. It`s outrageous in all of these cases. This is a revictimization time and time again. I just -- I just throw my hands up at this kind of activity.

GRACE: Marc, Marc, but you can`t throw your hands up, because someone has got to keep speaking out on behalf of this family. They`re under a gag order.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And they don`t have a Web site, like Michael Jackson does, whenever he feels like talking.

KLAAS: No, that`s absolutely true. That`s absolutely true.

GRACE: Hey. Hey, Marc, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: Greed, money. Somewhere, greed got in there and somebody -- I can`t quite say, but it has to do with money. It`s Michael Jackson. Look what we have here. We can get money out of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: After losing over $22 million in settlements over other alleged child molestation, why did he keep sleeping with boys? That was from Jackson`s first public response to the earlier child molestation -- no, to these child molestation charges.

And also take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: One time I asked to use the restroom. And they said, sure, it`s around the corner there. Once I went in the restroom, they locked me in there for like 45 minutes. There was doo-doo, feces thrown all over the walls, the floor, the ceiling. And it stunk so bad. And one of the policemen came by the window and he made a sarcastic remark. He said, does it smell good enough for you in there? How do you like the smell? Is it good?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Also from Jackson`s response.

Hey, Jane Velez-Mitchell, weren`t you the one that told me that Jackson`s maid, who made about $7 an hour, had to clean monkey poop off his bedroom wall and change the monkey`s diapers? A little more than in the job description, OK? Is that right?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, that was her testimony.

GRACE: That was you.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: In fact, a couple of the housekeepers testified they were bitten by the monkey. So, another one, another man, the majordomo, testified he had to deliver french fries at 3:00 in the morning.

While Michael Jackson has certainly been noted for his generosity to charitable causes, there are some humiliations that some of the employees said they had to endure.

GRACE: Well, another thing I would like to point out very quickly is, also, after his arrest, Jackson claimed that there was police brutality. That has been totally discounted. I wonder if Jackson`s going to take the stand and be forced to discuss that on cross-examination.

Quick break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back.

We are live in California in the Michael Jackson case. Before we switch gears to the missing prosecutor -- he vanished into thin air -- very quickly back to Art Harris.

Art, I find it just such a convergence of events and coincidence that Jackson is complaining about feces on the wall in the jail when he got arrested; yet, according to Jane Velez, he lived like that with a darn monkey in the bedroom.

HARRIS: Not only that, Nancy, but I`ve gotten totally different stories from people I have interviewed who were in jail with him. I broke the attorney general`s report that investigated that.

They interview 87 people. And one inmate who was there at the jail told me that it was the most courteous booking he`d ever seen. I asked him, well, how can you say that? He said, well, I`ve been booked three times in the last seven months and I ought to know.

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Well, there`s an expert.

And, also, remember, he had as an escort Mark Geragos. You know the police weren`t going to do a thing wrong with Geragos in tow.

To all my Jackson guests tonight, see you soon, Jane Velez-Mitchell and Art Harris there at the courthouse. The panel is staying on.

Bye, friends.

I want to switch gears very quickly. A felony prosecutor has gone missing, vanished seemingly into thin air.

Tonight, on the phone from Bellefonte, Pennsylvania, WTHA reporter Chris Cekot.

Hi, Chris. Bring us up to date, friend.

CHRIS CEKOT, WTHA REPORTER: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for having me on the show.

GRACE: Hey. What can you tell me, Chris?

CEKOT: Well, here`s what we know so far.

District attorney Ray Gricar, he`s been the prosecutor here in Centre County for about 20 years now. They haven`t heard from him since Friday at 11:30 in the morning. He had called into his office, telling folks he was taking the day off. He was driving out of town to an adjacent county and basically hasn`t been heard from since.

GRACE: Take a listen. This is what his girlfriend had to say.

CEKOT: She addressed the media...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATTY FORNICOLA, RAY GRICAR`S LONGTIME GIRLFRIEND: Ray, I love you very much. And I miss you. I want for you to come home. Please call us. We will wait for as long as we need to. For everyone else, again, if you have seen Ray, please contact the police, your local police, as quickly as you can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let me go back to WTHA reporter Chris Cekot.

Chris, that was the girlfriend of the missing prosecutor speaking out. When was he last seen? Where was he headed?

CEKOT: Police tell he was headed towards the Lewisburg area. That`s about 40 minutes or so east of where we are, in the Bellefonte area. Supposedly, he was taking a country drive, was headed towards an antique store. And, again, that`s the last that anybody`s heard from District Attorney Gricar.

GRACE: Any cell phone calls?

CEKOT: He did make a cell phone call Friday morning at 11:30. And that`s when he let folks in his office know that he was taking the day off and heading out on a drive. Since then, no sightings and no word from Gricar.

GRACE: Any activity on his credit cards?

CEKOT: We`re told the FBI is involved in the case and specifically they`re looking at any bank account activity, things like that, but, so far, no word on if any money has been moving around in his account.

GRACE: Here is what his daughter had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARA GRICAR, DAUGHTER OF RAY GRICAR: I want you to know that I will wait for as long as it takes to hear from you. I miss you so much. And I love you. And please call.

To everyone else out there, if you have seen my father, if you could please contact the police.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to WTHA reporter Chris Cekot.

Chris, what kind of a prosecutor was he? What kind of cases did he handle? How long had he been a prosecutor?

CEKOT: Well, again, Mr. Gricar had been a prosecutor for 20 years here in Centre County. Before he came to our area, he was a prosecutor in Ohio. He`s been involved in many high-profile cases, including capital murder cases.

We do know that he was opposed to the death penalty, often would ask for co-counsel once a capital murder case reached that stage.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police have to say about the case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DUANE DIXON, BELLEFONTE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Of course, this is getting more attention due to the position of Mr. Gricar, being a county prosecutor, the head prosecutor in the county and having dealt with numerous individuals in his past. Everything has to be looked at a little differently because of his position.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Chris, where are police searching now?

CEKOT: Well, right now, police are looking in Union County. That`s, again, where the Lewisburg area is.

They have found his car in that area, but, again, no signs of District Attorney Gricar. They`ve had helicopters involved. They`ve also had dogs looking in the area, but, again, no signs of the district attorney.

GRACE: We`re taking a look at the car. Could you show, Elizabeth (ph), the shot of the missing prosecutor, Gricar, one more time before we go to break? There`s the car. And I`m looking for the head shot. There we go.

Take a look, everybody, felony prosecutor missing since this weekend.

As we go to break, let`s go to tonight`s all-points bulletin. The FBI and law enforcement across the country are looking for 54-year-old Alvin Scott, wanted in connection with the shooting deaths of his wife and one of her friends in Atlanta August 2001. The FBI says Scott may be armed and dangerous, is a possible suicide risk. Scott, 6 feet tall, 170 pounds, gray hair. If you have any information on Alvin Scott, contact the FBI, 404-679-9000. There is a reward.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back.

As you know by now, a felony prosecutor missing, last seen over the weekend, has totally disappeared seemingly into thin air. I believe it was Friday morning he was last seen.

Very quickly to Dino Lombardi.

You know, following the attack on Judge Rowland Barnes, his court reporter, Julie Brandau.

LOMBARDI: Yes.

GRACE: Then there was Judge Lefkow, her family.

LOMBARDI: Sure.

GRACE: There have been many, many others.

LOMBARDI: There have been, Nancy.

And it happens more in this country than I think we as Americans would like to think. Sometimes, we think it happens in Colombia or places like that. But when I was a young prosecutor in Queens, in the mid `80s, at the outset of the violent crack gangs, a probation officer was basically assassinated by a Jamaican drug gang. And the prosecutor, a good friend and colleague of mine, and the judge on the case, an old-time Queens judge, received death threats. And this was a gang that had already proven they could carry these out.

They went to court and to and from home every day with an armed guard and with bulletproof vests. It was a shocking thing to see. And, again, it happens. We`ve seen the Atlanta thing recently. But it happens sometimes and you never hear about it. And the risks that are run in that profession are great, even in this country.

GRACE: And, of course, I think I`ve still got Marc Klaas with me.

Marc, are you with me?

OK, don`t have Marc.

Mercedes Colwin, I don`t know, maybe is it just the cost of doing business as a prosecutor now in 2005?

COLWIN: I think it`s amazing that some people still continue to prosecute cases, considering all of the media attention on these crimes.

But I also think that, before we look at this case and say this is possible homicide, there have been -- and I remember this in the last 18 to 24 months -- there was another prosecutor that they suspected foul play and, as it turns out, he took his own life. I can`t recall the name as I say this to you.

So, I think everyone`s going to have to look beyond perhaps foul play and say perhaps -- that he may have taken his life.

GRACE: We`ll find out.

Quick break, everyone. We are headed out. I want to thank all of my guests, remember, our guests earlier on the Jackson panel as well.

But my biggest thank you to you for being with us tonight, inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from around the world.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern.

And, until then, good night, friend.

END