Return to Transcripts main page

DIPLOMATIC LICENSE

Current Events at the United Nations

Aired April 22, 2005 - 21:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This ought to be indictable, not to promote something. I'm amazed it's not a crime.

JAMES BONE, "TIMES OF LONDON" CORRESPONDENT: You might have people that are corrupt still working here, and you're not doing anything to stop them working here.

FRED ECKHARD, U.N. SPOKESMAN: But that's in the hands of a competent judicial authority.

TED TURNER, FOUNDER OF CNN: I'll bet there's not one person in this room that would launch a nuclear attack on anybody, would they? See. We just need everybody to think like we do and there's no problem, you know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN ANCHOR: Before a new ballgame kicks off, spectators purchase scorecards to keep track of the action. As we welcome you to this week's DIPLOMATIC LICENSE, I kindly suggest you take out your U.N. scandals score sheet to keep track of the latest results. The pages may be greasy from oil and food stains, but here we go.

This week, yet another senior Kofi Annan advisor was under a cloud and prompted to step aside while allegations were investigated in the overall Oil For Food drama.

Maurice Strong, a Canadian businessman and environmental activist stepped down from his role as U.N. pointman on the Korean peninsula. This came days after an indictment was unsealed against a South Korean citizen for illegal representation of a foreign government, in this case Iraq. The link: Tongsun Park is the Korean lobbyist who it turns out had conducted some business with Strong in 1997 and advised him on Korea.

The indictment charged that Park invested $1 million in Iraqi funds in a Canadian firm owned by the son of a high-ranking U.N. official. In an interview Thursday with the "Toronto Globe and Mail," Maurice Strong conceded it was his son Frederick Strong who headed the company Park invested in, though Strong denies any links to Oil For Food, which does appear to make him the unidentified U.N. official number two cited in the U.S. government indictment of Park.

That indictment said Park had met with the official and that he had money ready to lobby for Iraq. Park remains out of touch in Sough Korea, but others indicted last week appeared in court in New York this week. An American businessman accused in Oil For Food scandal arrived from his Texas home where he runs Bay Oil Companies. In front of a judge, David Chalmers and a Bulgarian associated pleaded not guilty to charges they schemed with Saddam Hussein to make millions of dollars looted from the humanitarian program.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: David Chalmers and Bay Oil pled not guilty to the charges the government has levied against them for the best reason possible: they are not guilty of any crimes in this case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Remember the main U.N. approved investigation led by Paul Volcker? Kofi Annan announced he felt exonerated by Volcker's last report, which did not accuse Annan of corruption but did fault him on management. It's been brewing ever since. Was the report too soft on Annan? Apparently some leading members of Volcker's team felt so.

This week, two investigators resigned. The Volcker panel response: the collective judgment was that this was the best conclusion reached and said the two investigators' jobs were over anyway.

Volcker Deputy Richard Goldstone (ph) told me they did not resign in protest, but the two who left, Robert Parton (ph) and Miranda Duncan (ph) have not surfaced to clear up the suspicion they quit in anger.

So what does all of this mount up to? Is Oil For Food an albatross that doesn't allow the United Nations to do its work or is it a media got- you game while seven investigations toil away?

To avoid answering these questions while making better points of their own, please welcome Benny Avni of the "New York Sun" and, from Radio France Internationale, Philippe Bolopion.

Welcome to you both.

Benny, what's the most significant Oil For Food related development of the week?

BENNY AVNI, "NEW YORK SUN": I think it's the resignation of Duncan and Parton (ph), because it shows that there are very deep political differences inside the Volcker Committee. The reason why this is such a big piece of news is that, you know, the Volcker Committee has been leaned on by the United Nations as an answer to any scandal in that scandal sheet that you just mentioned, and they always say, you know, there is a scandal. OK, Volcker is dealing with this, we'll find out when Volcker comes out.

Turns out there is no Volcker. There is like a lot of arguments inside and --

ROTH: Well, but that would be expected.

And, Philippe, I want to know -- Philippe, months ago on our program you said Oil For Food was a boring story. Do you still feel that way or have you --

PHILIPPE BOLOPION, RADIO FRANCE INTL: You know, I do, I do. I mean, for example, that's typical. The story all week long has been about these two investigators resigning in protest. None of them has come out to say, hey, we resigned in protest. When you want to resign in protest, you say there is no way I am going to attach my name to that report, it's a whitewash and here you go, outside in front of the cameras, and you say, hey, this is a whitewash, I'm not about to (INAUDIBLE) it's a shame.

These guys have not done that and all we see is speculation that perhaps they don't agree with some of the conclusions, but they haven't said so.

ROTH: Benny?

AVNI: What is highlights more than anything is the difference between the Volcker Committee investigation and the Kelly investigation that you mentioned before.

The Kelly investigation keeps yielding results, and the reason is that Kofi Annan can come in front of the Volcker Commission and say I don't remember something and then they show him his schedule and he says oh, I do remember that. Whereas in the Kelly investigation, if Tongsun Park is now considering a deal with them and Samir Vincent cut a deal already with them, they are afraid.

Kelly can tell them, look, you guys, you either tell me the truth or you spend the next 35 years in jail.

ROTH: Philippe?

BOLOPION: But up to now no U.N. officials have been indicted by that, and even though the United Nations has been trashed for weeks, months, almost years now by that --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLOPION: There is a lot of smoke. There are questions. When you read the Volcker report, there are questions. Did Kofi Annan mismanage some programs? Of course he did. There is suspicion. But remember, it reminds me that old climate -- it reminds me of before the war in Iraq, the question of weapons of mass destruction. There was a lot of smoke but then, a lot of suspicions, and in the end there was no weapons there, and perhaps again there is no fire there. But because it is such a media frenzy on that, it is very difficult now for the people just to --

(CROSSTALK)

AVNI: The problem is -- the problem with what you call a media frenzy is that the United Nations for the longest time has been one of the darkest places on earth as far as media scrutiny is concerned. Once scrutiny is started, every place you turn on the flashlight, or the sun, as I would like to call it, the cockroaches just run under the table.

BOLOPION: But that would be the case with any investigation the United Nations has --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLOPION: I mean, Kofi Annan has been questioned for hours, he's turned all in e-mails. Everybody has been questioned. There is a huge openness, and then meanwhile, you know, in the Congress, you see the people like Tom DeLay who are taking golf trips in Europe paid by --

(CROSSTALK)

AVNI: And the minute they did, it was up in the media, whereas here they are not used to this.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLOPION: The Heritage Foundation is not calling for their resignation.

Now, it's funny now --

(CROSSTALK)

AVNI: Lots of people are calling for it.

BOLOPION: -- the Heritage Foundation is now calling for the resignation of Volcker himself because, you know, there is an inquiry. When they don't like the results of the inquiry, well, they say that not only Kofi Annan should resign but people who are doing the inquiry should resign too because they are not telling them what they want to hear.

AVNI: Look, you said before that even in the Kelly case, in the federal case, there are no real allegations against United Nations officials.

There are two U.N. officials that are named as targets for major bribery by Saddam Hussein's agents, two Saddam Hussein's agents. Two of them met in restaurants and places with very high U.N. officials, they are described, they are not named. They met with those agents.

BOLOPION: Allegations again. These are allegations. They are serious, they should be investigated fully and I totally trust the American justice to get to whether this is true or not, but for now it is not -- there is nothing very solid, very concrete. That's what I'm saying.

AVNI: Well, Maurice Strong has admitted --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLOPION: The impression that you get from the media circus around that is that the United Nations is the most bribed place on the earth and, you know, nothing is working here, and you know, this is not totally true. I'm sure it isn't.

AVNI: Maurice Strong served as Kofi Annan's ambassador, envoy, to the Korean peninsula at the same time that he was doing business with a man that was charged in the 70's as a major Korean influence peddler, and there is --

BOLOPION: He is a businessman. Maurice Strong is a businessman.

AVNI: Well, Maurice Strong is a genius. Maurice Strong is a guy that can be a hero, both to the oil industry and at the same time to the environmental industry. How many people do you know in the world that can do both those things.

BOLOPION: But this is not the question to me. You know, the question is whether he received money to influence the United Nations, and there is no proof of that yet. If there is some day --

(CROSSTALK)

AVNI: We know for sure from his admission that he was doing business with a Korean influence peddler at the same time that he was the U.N. envoy to the Korean peninsula. If that's no interest --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLOPION: We don't know that there is a quid pro quo there. The question is what did he do? What did he do for these guys? Did he pay -- did he get paid by these guys? Then what did he do for them? Can you answer that question?

AVNI: I'm not talking about whether he got paid regarding Iraq. He admits that he got paid by a Korean man for --

BOLOPION: He didn't get paid. His son got some investment in a family owned firm --

AVNI: $1 million. He's not disputing that.

BOLOPION: There is an appearance of conflict of interest, but --

(CROSSTALK)

ROTH: All right, well, what -- you know, what about -- you know, Paul Volcker, it was revealed, had surgery April 1 involving his aorta, although he got out within a day or so. Do you think, Philippe, that the Volcker report and credibility is going to hold up as he reports on corporations, companies, businesses, which really involve, Benny, a lot more of the smuggling, but has not gotten the attention. That's where he's headed to next, while all the focus is still on Annan.

BOLOPION: I'm very interested to see what is going to come out this summer. I really want to see the big picture right now because what U.S. congressmen have been alleging for a while is that this is the biggest scandal that the universe has ever seen, and I think Volcker is going to say now whether, you know, all these billions of dollars that were taken away from the Oil For Food program were taken away by some corrupt U.N. officials or whether this was the product of some U.S. and U.K. accepted policy that --

ROTH: All right, we're going to have to hold it right there. Benny Avni, on the left, of the "New York Sun," on the case; on the right, Philippe Bolopion of Radio France Internationale. Thank you both.

A huge verbal and fiscal supporter of the United Nations is Ted Turner, the founder of CNN. Ted won the Alan Cranston Global security Award this week for efforts on nuclear disarmament. The cable visionary says the United Nations will survive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TURNER: We have to have the United Nations just like we have to have a federal government here in the United States. Is it perfect? Is it free of corruption? Is everybody honest and ethical? No. But we still have to have it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SENATOR JOSEPH BIDEN (D-DEL.): In your heart -- in your heart, you know this guy doesn't deserve to go to the United Nations. In your heart you know that to be true. This time, follow your heart, not your head. Follow your heart, because your head is going to tell you to be really practical and don't screw around with the president's nominee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: The nominee Senator Joe Biden is referring to is John Bolton, the White House choice to be the next U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. Bolton, still not there yet. We talked about it on last week's program. Bolton's name can't get out of the important Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Democrats succeeded in getting more time for the committee to hear allegations against Bolton's past conduct. And that didn't sit well with President Bush.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: Sometimes politics gets in the way of doing the people's business. Take John Bolton, a good man.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Bush spoke two days after a raucous Senate Foreign Relations Committee debate on whether more time was required to listen to new complaints against Bolton. Democrats wanted the committee to listen in private to hear new witnesses. Republicans wanted to get to the vote, already having heard of Bolton's past in committee hearings. After the storm, though, one Republican wavered. Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SENATOR JOHN KERRY (D-MA): If you don't know some of the allegations that have come across the transom in the last few days, since Carl Ford (ph) testified, you're voting in the blind.

BIDEN: Every single time, every time Mr. Bolton asked to have something done about a subordinate about his career he was overruled. Every time.

GEORGE VOINOVICH (R-OH): I've heard enough today that I don't feel comfortable about voting for Mr. Bolton. I think one's interpersonal skills and their relations with their fellow man is a very important ingredient in anyone that works for me. I call it the kitchen test. Do we feel comfortable about the kitchen test.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Because of that last minute waiver by a Republican senator in the end, there was more discussions, more delay, more time granted to listen to new testimony, and a vote has now been rescheduled for May 12.

Also on Friday Vice President Dick Cheney, a strong Bolton proponent, fired back at the Democrats who say Bolton needs anger management.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I have looked at all of the charges that have been made. I don't think any of them stand up to scrutiny and if being occasionally tough and abrasive and aggressive were a problem, there are a lot of members of the U.S. Senate who wouldn't qualify. They're all friends of mine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: So will Bolton qualify and get to be the new U.N. ambassador? We've asked Martin Kady of "Congressional Quarterly" to join us from CNN's Washington bureau.

Senator Dodd said Bolton is damaged goods. Senator Allen says the U.N. needs a plain-speaking American to whip it into shape. Let me ask you, will Bolton get there?

MARTIN KADY, "CONGRESSIONAL QUARTERLY": That's the question everyone is asking on this. It's really 50/50 right now, and this all hinges on the votes of three Republicans in that committee; Voinovich, who we heard from; Senator Chuck Hagel, from Nebraska; and Senator Lincoln Chafee, from Rhode Island. They're all undecided right now.

ROTH: How rare is this type of delay for a president's nomination?

KADY: Well, we've seen a lot of delays on a lot of nominations. In fact, Bolton's predecessor, John Negroponte, was held up for six months before he was finally confirmed, and Negroponte is now the new National Intelligence Director. Richard Holbrook, during the Clinton administration, was held up for almost a year before he finally got through.

ROTH: How much of it is politics, as the president of the United States charged? One gets the feeling, though, there's still a little bit more to this, or is it just politics?

KADY: Well, just about every day something new comes out. The Democrats have told me that almost every day someone else who has dealt with Bolton somewhere along the way on his career wants to talk to them, wants to tell them about how he may have treated subordinates. He's got a confrontational management stye.

So there is more out there. There may be some substance to it, but it's very hard to substantiate these kinds of things, which is why President Bush thinks it's just politics.

ROTH: Thomas Hubbard, though, a former ambassador to South Korea for President Bush, he came out and challenged some of Bolton's testimony and also had some criticism over the way Bolton acted in anger.

KADY: Yes, that's going to be critical, because Republicans can say, well, you just don't like the guy and you're not going to vote for him. But Democrats have a new tact, that they're going to try to say, well, he also mislead us in his testimony.

During Bolton's testimony, he said that Hubbard was fine with the pretty harsh speech he gave about North Korea. Turns out that Hubbard says he was not fine with that speech at all back in 2003.

ROTH: And now we have Colin Powell, former secretary of state, talking to some of these senators. Powell did not sign on to, what we talked about on last week's program, a pro-Bolton letter, as other former secretaries of state did. How much weight will he carry? And he's also not seemingly going either way, just sort of saying competent man, but he has concerns, right?

KADY: Powell is not overtly coming out against Bolton. He didn't sign that letter of support. He's trying to be neutral. But, yes, Powell has a lot of influence with moderate Republicans especially. You know, his voice carries a lot of weight, but he's not being very public about it. He's apparently talked to Hagel and Chafee. Hagel and Chafee have reached out to him to get his opinion, and apparently Powell has given kind of a back and forth. He hasn't condemned him, but he hasn't exactly said vote for him and sent him to the Senate.

ROTH: So is it hypocritical of some of these senators, as Vice President Cheney said, and others have said, some of these Democratic senators have anger problems and they lash out at their staff. What's going on here?

KADY: Well, Cheney made a point that sounded like it got some chuckles out of his audience, because, yes, there is a lot of confrontational people in Washington. It's what makes this town so fascinating.

ROTH: Is it like payback now? People are emboldened because some people are coming out of the woodwork and now you have a former contract worker for the agency for international development. She is saying that Bolton harassed her and chased her, but she's a big Democratic supporter. Is her testimony being given any credibility?

KADY: Yes, I think is. I talked to this subcontractor, her name is Melody Townsel (ph). She's now a businesswoman in Dallas. And she says she is going to file an affidavit where she will be sworn to, you know, tell the truth, and that's going to be filed with the committee.

I don't know if it's payback, but this is one of the few powers that Democrats in the Senate have. They're in the minority. They're outnumbered on almost every vote. But they have been effective in blocking the nominees that they don't like.

ROTH: And so should people -- for people to understand, they need one of these Republicans to switch to get a tie vote in the Senate, for it either to be killed or the nominee to drop out or to be sent to the full Senate with a recommendation of no recommendation, right?

KADY: Right. What would happen is there's 10 Republicans and eight Democrats on the Foreign Relations Committee. We know the eight Democrats are going to vote against Bolton. So if just one of these three undecided Republicans votes against Bolton, you have a nine-nine. It stalls in committee. It doesn't go anywhere.

ROTH: Did you think it was odd that Senator Dodd said, look, the U.N. ambassador post, that's not important, what's important here is some other things. Was that a slip?

KADY: It sounded like a slip. I mean, I don't think he thinks that the U.N. ambassador post is unimportant, but maybe he thinks that in the context of the fight that they are having over federal judges, because judges are lifetime appointments, he sees the judges fight as more.

ROTH: But it is interesting that we're talking about a man's conduct and his skills in diplomacy, and yet most of this is about character and is he going to lash out or erupt, and what happens when he meets the French in New York.

KADY: Yes, well, you know, that's a good question. You know, I called the secretary-general's office the day that Bolton got nominated and they said, you know, we're looking forward to working with him. We might have our differences, but we think he'd be a breath of fresh air. So, at least Kofi Annan's office is playing --

ROTH: Well, they're in no position to start fighting back right now on George Bush.

How odd was that meeting in Washington, the debate this week, where it seemed like a schoolmarm calling the roll. The Democrats were upset, muttering under their breath, Senator Kerry lashing out. What was happening on that meeting?

KADY: Well, there were some serious theatrics there. I mean, we often go into these hearings knowing exactly what the vote is going to be. We pretty much know what people are going to say. But there were a lot of twists and turns. You may have heard the gasp from the audience when Voinovich decided suddenly that he needed more time, he was uncomfortable.

Well, what was happening there, when you may have heard the clerk calling the roll for the votes, Senator Lugar, the chairman of this committee, wanted to force through the vote. He said, "Call the roll, call the roll," and the Democrats said, "Wait, wait," so they disrupted it. It was pretty chaotic.

ROTH: All right, well, they should see the United Nations in action at times. But I want to thank you there, Mr. Kady, of "Congressional Quarterly," thank you very much. We'll see what happens with Mr. Bolton on May 12 at the earliest.

Don't like Bolton's treatment of subordinates? Like his blunt style to fight waste at the United Nations? Can't decide? Well, what about facial hair as an issue? Comedy Central "Daily Show" host Jon Stewart had new evidence for the Senate to consider.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JON STEWART, "DAILY SHOW" HOST: John Bolton, seen here having just polished off an enormous glass of milk, is the White House's choice for the United Nations, and he immediately set a diplomatic tone.

JOHN BOLTON, U.S. AMB. NOMINEE: All freedom loving peoples must be protected. Close cooperation in the time honored tradition of frank communication is central to achieving our mutually-held objectives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can be done to bring the issue of dealerting forward and what can you do, either through government and nongovernmental efforts, to take these thousands of weapons off alert?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: OK, people like to point fingers at the United Nations, but that was a cute finger face-off between two friends, Mikhail Gorbachev and Ted Turner.

Instead of pointing a finger at us, how about an e-mail. If you'd like to comment on any of the opinions expressed on the program, please e- mail us at Diplomatic.License@CNN.com. It used to be Turner.com. It still should be. But that's Diplomatic.License@CNN.com.

And if you have seen the movie "The Interpreter," which has opened, I would like to hear your opinion.

That is DIPLOMATIC LICENSE. I'm Richard Roth, here in New York. Thanks for watching.

END

TO ORDER VIDEOTAPES AND TRANSCRIPTS OF CNN INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMMING, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE THE SECURE ONLINE ORDER FROM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com