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CNN Larry King Live

God and Good vs. Evil

Aired April 22, 2005 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, what makes someone kill? Why does God allow innocent children to be abducted and murdered? Is good actually stalked by evil? Spiritual leaders and other experts debate these profound, eternal and unsettling questions.
Dr. John MacArthur, Christian pastor of Grace Community Church in Southern California, also a best-selling author and a host of the Global Ministry Grace to You.

Deepak Chopra, the world renowned spiritual teacher and best- selling author.

Father Jim Keiter, Catholic priest and editor at large of Catholicexchange.com.

Plus Char Margolis, spiritual intuitive and best-selling author.

And Roger Depue, the legendary criminal profiler, formerly with the FBI, author of a remarkable new book "Between Good and Evil." And they're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Interesting topic tonight. Let's start with Roger. His new book "Between Good and Evil: A Master Profiler's Hunt For Society's Most Violent Predators." Interesting is that Roger Depue headed the FBI's -- there you see the cover of the book -- he headed the FBI's behavioral science unit, worked for the Bureau for 21 years and after retiring, joined a seminary and became a religious brother.

What is your concept, Roger, of evil?

ROGER DEPUE, FRM. FBI AGENT: Evil is the -- that which is not beneficial to a person's emotional well-being or general well-being. In other words, evil is destructive to one's personal well-being.

KING: Do you think it is -- with all your study of behavioral science and profiles, do you think there are people born evil?

DEPUE: It's an interesting question. There may be some genetic predispositions for evil, but I think that the majority of it is from the developmental process. The period of upbringing, socialization, if you will.

KING: So you don't believe in the bad seed or criminal mind?

DEPUE: I think that there's possible -- it's possible that there's a genetic predisposition to evil. Many traits are inherited, but I think it's the way the person lives in society and the experiences that he has which brings out this evil potential into reality.

KING: Deepak Chopra what do you believe?

DEEPAK CHOPRA, AUTHOR: Well, I believe that there are two forces in the universe. The first is creativity, and evolution and truth, goodness and harmony. And then there is the force of entropy, and inertia, and chaos, and separation, and anger and rage. It's our shadow self. All experiences by contrast.

I don't think people are evil. I think what happens is we have these two tendencies, divine and diabolical, the sinner and the saint, the sacred and profane. And what happens is when there are certain conditions like extreme degradation, lack of respect, sense of injustice, that fuels this for separation, anger and rage.

Because in our subconscious mind, we have these atavistic, primitive impulses that are dark and dangerous and secret. And it's potential in everyone. It's not that certain people are evil, it's a potential in everyone.

KING: John MacArthur, what do you believe?

JOHN MACARTHUR, PASTOR: Well, I think it's not only a potential in everyone, I think it's a reality in everyone.

KING: We all have some evil in us?

MACARTHUR: Absolutely. The Bible is very clear on that. All of us are evil. All have sinned, the Bible says.

KING: So, how then how do we separate? We put some in jail, and some we don't.

MACARTHUR: Evil doesn't manifest in all of us the same way. Not everybody is as bad as it is possible to be. There are restraints -- restraints because we've been taught moral law, the way we've been brought up, because we have come to know God, there's a Holy Spirit restraint, there's restraint by conscience, there's restraint by law and government. I mean, not everybody is as bad as they could be.

But I think that -- Roger Depue pointed out a really important point, he was talking about one of the guys in the FBI that he was speaking with who said to him, it is really easy to get into the criminal mind. And he said he lay down at night, this friend of his, and said, my God, that's me.

And I think every one of us know down inside there's potential for evil there and reality of evil is there.

KING: Char, what do you believe?

CHAR MARGOLIS, AUTHOR: I believe life is a school and we're here to learn. Life is like a battery, it is all made up of energy. And there's a positive and negative energy. A battery doesn't run unless there's a positive and negative charge. And we're always being tested and tempted by the negative or the evil energy or the negative energy, but goodness has more power than evil. But you have to work harder for it to win.

KING: And some might call this the devil, right?

MARGOLIS: Yeah, but I think there's also different levels. I don't think there's good and evil. I think -- I believe that there's a spirit world. And as in everyday life there are good and bad people, in the spirit world there are good and bad people.

And in the spirit world, there are different neighborhoods we can go to. And it depends on how we live, what our actions are, our conscience. When we die it is not how famous we are, how rich we are, it is our deeds. What did we do. And did we live with a clear conscience of goodness and love and compassion for others.

KING: Father Keiter what do you believe?

FATHER JIM KEITER, CATHOLIC PRIEST: We're obviously, on this journey to perfection. And so there's a constant struggle within each of us as created by God this evil and this good. And throughout life, through the constraints, the restraints that the other guests just mentioned, we learn through moral law, we learn through our parents, we learn through teachers and so forth. These are strengths. And the ultimate perfection, when we reach that, we choose good and we avoid sin, we avoid evil.

KING: And how about those who choose bad?

KEITER: You know what? That's the mystery in how God has created us. You know, we as Catholics believe that God has created us in this journey, this journey towards perfection, but he's created with us that free will, that free choice to choose. And there's within that choice is where exists that potential evil at all times.

KING: Roger, how do you look at the predator who says, I can't help it? I see a young person and I can't help it. Is that a choice?

DEPUE: I would, first of all, say that I see it as a continuum between good and evil. And that some people are clustered more on the good side, some closer to the evil side. Hopefully, most of us are somewhere closer to the good side.

However, there are people, Larry, who enjoy hurting others. There are people who enjoy killing. Ted Bundy, for instance, talked about how he enjoyed in the strangulation of his victim, how he enjoyed the moment when life passed from the eyes of the victim. And that made him feel like God.

And so here we're talking about a person who is very close to that edge of evil. And I think that much of that begins early in life. And has to do with a fantasy life where the person begins to have thoughts of evil and begins to nurture them and eventually they become a fantasy. And the fantasy moves toward an obsession and the obsession then... KING: Takes over.

DEPUE: ...allows him to have less and less control, that's correct.

KING: Deepak, what compels someone to harm a child?

CHOPRA: Well, that is a particular illness, I think. You know, when people go after children that is definitely impulse that is psychopathological.

But you know, in general, most people who do hurtful things have been harmed themselves. They've been the subject of abuse, or they've been brought up in degrading conditions.

KING: But that's not an excuse, is it?

CHOPRA: Sorry?

KING: Is that an excuse or a reason?

CHOPRA: No, it's an understanding. Unless we have understanding -- you know, if you always have this polarization that we are good and everybody else is evil, which we right now have this in our international conflicts, there's never going to be a resolution, because each side demonizes the other. You know? We are perceived as evil by our perceived enemies.

So we have to have an understanding of the conditions that create that. And if you don't do that, there will never be a resolution. It is always this fight between good and evil.

KING: We'll take a break and be back with more. Later, we'll include your phone calls. Our subject tonight is good and evil. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're talking about good and evil.

John MacArthur, do you understand the sexual predator of a young child?

MACARTHUR: I cannot comprehend that. I cannot comprehend anything...

KING: Is that the ultimate evil act?

MACARTHUR: On a human level, yes. On a human level, that has to be.

KING: What if it's not -- what if the person doing it has no control over the urge to do it?

MACARTHUR: I think by the time they do it, they have no control over it. It's how they got there. And how we have to go back to the beginning and see to put restraints on these kind of people so they don't end up that way. That's a series of choices that get you to that point.

KING: How do you spot them? You think it's a choice, someone chooses too?

MACARTHUR: I think there's a series of choices that begin in childhood maybe, because -- maybe informed by parental things, as you heard. It may be because of abusive situation in the home. Somewhere along the line, and the breakdown of the family and the breakdown of Godly character in the home and family, we potentate this kind of thing and those kinds of bizarre people who go that direction ultimately.

KING: What of the spiritual world -- you represent that world -- what does it thing of...

MARGOLIS: Well, first of all, I think it is really important for people to have healthy mental health. I think psychology is a very important field. And that thoughts create reality. Thoughts are things. And we have free will. We have choice. And it's not all planned out, because we're here to learn lessons, so we have a choice to do good or bad.

KING: Are you saying a predator of a 6-year-old boy chooses that he wants to do...

MARGOLIS: Well, first of all, if their parents hurt them or molested them, maybe they feel it's OK to do that. But if they were psychologically healthy, they wouldn't be doing this. And a lot of times, fathers are doing this to their kids, and the mother knows about it and doesn't want anyone to see it, so they put it under the carpet because they don't want to cause problems in the marriage.

KING: But then we go back to why is the father doing it to the kid?

MARGOLIS: Well, yes, exactly. Why is he doing it? Because some how he's either -- because either he's chemically imbalanced. But also in the spirit world, just one second, please. Sorry. I think that we all are guided by the universe. And if you want to call it God -- and I believe in God -- spirits that to me God is love. And that sometimes those trickster energies can come in and also influence...

KING: So it is not controlled by the person? The trickster coming in?

MARGOLIS: No, no. I'm just saying that sometimes that can happen.

KING: So then are we controlling it or not?

MARGOLIS: Sometimes we are and sometimes we're not.

KING: How do we know when we're not? MARGOLIS: Not everything in life is black and white.

MACARTHUR: And I would agree with that. I think, you can get so out of control in your life, that you yield up to demon power. Great illustration of that in the life of Jesus, there was a boy possessed of a demon. And the demon kept slamming the boy into the fire. This is classic destruction of a child in the scripture. And it was the demon that was slamming -- now you can ask the question how did that demon get residence in that boy? And of course, sin opens up anybody to that potential.

KING: We don't have all the answers, though, do we?

MACARTHUR: We don't know the exact answer to that.

KING: Father, is your church which was faced with the problem of this, has it investigated the whys, why someone does this?

KEITER: First of all, you know, it's an atrocity that, one, I personally cannot fathom. But when we talk about evil, I think we do need to make the distinction that evil can -- is objective. In that we as human beings, we're created by God. As created by God, we always seek the good. So even when we sin, we're not choosing an evil, we're seeing a good. And that's the great mystery and that's the malfeasance that takes place. The lie that takes place of evil. We actually are seeing something that's good, but because of culture, because of environment as we've heard, because of upbringing, the lack of family life, all these things, you know a person might not -- I mean, when you said they don't have that opportunity to choose the good, if they're in that presence and they're just so compelling, it's an addiction.

KING: Are you saying that the sinner thinks he's doing good?

KEITER: The sinner, as we believe as Catholics, as a human being we can only choose the good. And so when we sin, we're actually choosing something that we think is good, but objectively, it is evil. For example, a mother that may go out and steal bread to feed her child. Well, the intention of that mother is to feed the child. The circumstances is she needs to care for the child. But objectively stealing is always evil. It's always a sin.

MACARTHUR: That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Because you can talk about bread, but what are you going to talk about, when you talk about a predator. What are going to talk, when you talk about a guy burying a girl -- a little tiny girl in plastic bags alive in the...

KING: And the answer is you don't have an answer?

MACARTHUR: Well, The answer is this, that's not good no matter how you cut it. That's not somebody seeking good.

MARGOLIS: I agree.

(CROSSTALK) MACARTHUR: horrible evil.

KEITER: But that person...

KING: What are you saying, father?

KEITER: But that person that's committing that horrid crime at that moment in their minds, they don't see a wrong. I mean, something is compelling them to do that.

MARGOLIS: Oh, come on. Look, if you're raised with knowing good and bad as a child, you're going to know what's right and long.

KING: So, wait a minute. No, I'll back him up a minute. So in other words, this person doing this is saying, I know I'm evil, oh, boy I'm bad. You're saying they're saying that?

MARGOLIS: I think -- I think some people...

KING: The villain combs his hair in the morning.

MARGOLIS: I think some of them are and some of them aren't.

KING: Well, that's easy to say.

MARGOLIS: But some of them are -- but there is no answer -- there's no cut clean answer to this. Some of them are and some of them aren't. But many people know right and wrong. Weren't you taught right and wrong from your parents?

KING: Let me -- yes. But also -- all right, I'll get to the question of who's right is who's wrong. Who's evil is who's good?

We'll be right back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Now, Roger Depue, the men who took those planes on 9/11 into buildings, they thought that they were killing evil people. They thought that America was evil. So isn't a lot of this perspective? Now, we view that as an evil act, but if they view us as evil, where's the balance?

DEPUE: Yeah, I think that perspective is a good word, Larry. And what we need to do is put a lot of these things that we're talking about in perspective. The people make decisions and they're responsible for their decisions. We were talking about the child as a victim of the predator. I just wanted to weigh in on that for a minute.

I've never met a child molester who didn't believe that he was doing no harm to the child. I mean, they all believe that they're not hurting the child. In fact, the child likes it, enjoys it, and so there's no harm done. What they don't understand is that they're -- is that they're interfering with that child's future, that that child will probably never be able to have a normal sex life because of that experience.

KING: But why don't they know that? Why doesn't the victimizer not know that?

DEPUE: I think it's because we all have basic needs. Every human being has approximately 25 basic needs; one of them is sexual gratification. I think that's what father was talking about, in that the needs themselves are good.

However, if we have unsatisfied needs, what happens is that we begin to -- we begin to seek satisfaction. In other words, if you take a need like recognition, if you don't get enough recognition as a child, then you seek attention. You seek recognition. If you get too much recognition, then you're spoiled, you think that everyone in the world owes you adulation.

You see what I'm saying? And so walking down the middle line is critical for all 25 of these needs.

One of them is sexual gratification. If in your childhood, you have your need for sexual gratification satisfied in some bizarre way, then that carries with you. And there are many kinds of pedophiles. There's a fixated pedophile that will zero in on a child, let's say, between 8 and 10 before puberty. And that -- that molester may be -- may have been a victim at that time in their life. And so that idea of sexuality with children at that time in your life may become fixated. And now...

KING: I got you. Hold it. Deepak, I want to move with other -- there's so much to cover here.

CHOPRA: Sure, I know.

KING: Deepak, if they...

CHOPRA: There's one very important question that you raised, and that is...

KING: If the men on 9/11 thought they were attacking evil...

CHOPRA: Absolutely.

KING: ... then is it perspective? Who's evil is whose?

CHOPRA: It's perspective in that case. But you know, coming back to pedophilia and whether there's a choice or not, this is the eternal argument, you know, do we live in a universe of determinism or free will. And the answer is, it's simultaneously both. You know, if you don't have awareness, if your consciousness is constricted and fearful and isolated and you've been subjected to trauma and child abuse, then you more or less become a bundle of conditioned reflexes and nerves that's constantly triggered by people and circumstance into very predictable outcomes.

So many of these pedophiles cannot help themselves. And you know, not to really belabor the point, but there's been a huge scandal of pedophilia in the Catholic Church. And, you know, these are very good, upright people, brought up with high moral standards, but the repression and the guilt and the moral rage that comes with that allows this shadow to emerge. And these Catholic priests can't help themselves.

KING: John, don't you think that very often doctrinaire creates this?

CHOPRA: Absolutely.

MACARTHUR: No...

KING: You don't think so?

MACARTHUR: I would take another approach to that. I would say that's potentially true, but I would say the only thing that is going to end everybody having their own standards of what is right and wrong, the only thing is to have a uniform authority, a single set of laws that govern the whole world.

And that's of course why the Bible was written. God's law is there. It's explicit about how we conduct ourselves in this world.

KING: But there are moral people who don't believe that law.

MACARTHUR: Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the law of God. And if everybody does right in their own eyes, then you got a collision...

CHOPRA: There are five billion people on this planet. Not everybody is a Christian.

MACARTHUR: I didn't talk about being a Christian, although I wish everybody on the planet were a Christian.

CHOPRA: I know you would. I know you would.

MACARTHUR: But at the same time, I'm talking about law. I'm talking about moral law, given by God.

CHOPRA: Moral law is a byproduct of your awareness. It's not some law that you follow and...

(CROSSTALK)

MACARTHUR: Then I am the source of moral law? I don't think so. I think God is the source of that moral law. And that's...

CHOPRA: In your case, the definition of God is just, you know, some...

KING: Where does our -- where does it come from, Char? Where does our morality come from?

MARGOLIS: I think it comes from what we learn as a child. And also what our conscience tells us. KING: And where does the conscience come from?

MARGOLIS: Our conscience, I feel, comes from our guidance from a divine being -- call it God, call it the universe, call it ...

KING: What about sociopaths?

MARGOLIS: ... you know, Allah or God or Christ. Whatever, it doesn't matter, if we are all based in love and compassion and truth with one another.

KEITER: Larry, that last word that she said is truth, and that's the main thing that we really need to be focusing on here, is there's objective truth. When he was -- John was just referring to moral law, I mean, we could -- instead of saying moral law in relation to Christianity, we can just talk about natural law. And we're talking about objective truth. And what's going on in the culture and the world today is we have cultural relativism, individualistic relativism, where people are creating their own moral law rather than it being objective. For one person, this is a lie and for someone else it's not.

MARGOLIS: You know what the biggest problem is?

DEPUE: Larry, I just wanted to make one observation...

KING: Let me get a break in, and then we'll pick right up with hat. We'll take a break. I'll re-introduce the panel. We'll also include your phone calls. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Let me re-introduce our panel. John MacArthur, in addition to the others, is president of the Masters College and founder of the Masters Seminary.

Deepak Chopra is "The New York Times" best-selling author. One of his latest books is "The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success."

Father Jim Keiter is the editor at large of the CatholicExchange.com and pastor of Assumption parish in Omaha, Nebraska.

Char Margolis is a spiritual intuitive and author. Her newest book is "Life: The Spiritual Intuitive's Collection of Inspirational Thoughts." And there you see its cover.

And in Washington is Roger Depue, the retired chief of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit. Worked for the bureau for 21 years. After retiring, joined a seminary, became a religious brother, and is author of "Between Good and Evil: A Master Profiler's Hunt for Society's Most Violent Predators."

Before we take calls, you wanted to add something, Roger?

DEPUE: Yes, I just wanted to talk a little bit about the nature of life itself. If we look at life, we'll get some ideas about how people come to be the way they are. We begin as an infant with a totally selfish perspective. We're totally concerned with our own self and gratification of our own needs. But as we grow through childhood and move toward adulthood, the other becomes important. And so you have self on one side and other on the other. And we move from self to other, and we begin to realize the importance of others in our lives. And that goes all the way to the point of others being the common good, and even to the extent that in marriage we give ourselves to the other; the other gives themselves to us.

And then we go to the furthest extreme, and that is the other with the capital "O." And that's the religious concept, where we want to do the will of God and we completely submerge our personal self to the will of the other.

KING: How does that take us to evil?

DEPUE: Now, what I want to say is that in this whole selfishness, if we don't move toward the importance of the other, that's what happens. We become narcissistic. We become overwhelmed with our own importance and the satisfaction of our own needs no matter what. And I think M. Scott Peck referred to this as "the malignant narcissist." And many of these people fall into that category.

KING: Deepak, were the men who took the planes on 9/11, were they evil?

CHOPRA: Well, certainly from our perspective, they were. And anybody who...

KING: But from theirs, they weren't?

CHOPRA: From theirs, they weren't. I mean, you know, it's traditional, as I said, to demonize the enemy. Unless you do that, it's impossible to kill. So you know, we end up comparing our ideas of acceptable slaughter. So we don't think it's evil to drop a bomb with depleted uranium. And if women and children die on the streets, we call it collateral damage. From the other side's perspective, that's evil.

But of course, our idea of worse form of slaughter is a beheading or a suicide bombing. So you know, it is all a question of your cultural, your religious and your spiritual indoctrination.

KING: Well said. Now, John, how do you balance that? They don't think they're evil. They think you're evil?

MACARTHUR: Right, and I think you have to go back to the standard, the universal standard of the law of God which is that killing is evil.

KING: Therefore, we kill, and they kill, we're all evil?

MACARTHUR: The next question to ask is, are they the evil aggressor or are they the defender of those that are being killed? KING: They would argue that with you.

MACARTHUR: Well, they would say they are -- but there's no question they were the evil aggressor. I mean, the people they killed were not attacking them. The bottom line is, you can justify a war on the basis of defending people from deadly force that is being pushed upon them. Always in our country, we have stood for the people that are being harmed.

KING: Yeah, but if you're a mailman in Hiroshima, that explanation ain't going to go far.

MACARTHUR: I understand that. I understand that.

KING: It ain't going to work.

MACARTHUR: I'm not saying it's a perfect -- it's a perfect solution. But I at least can say there's a place to stand up and defend people who are being destroyed.

KING: Well, obviously, those people were innocents.

MACARTHUR: I mean, stopping Hitler with World War II, you know.

KING: But other innocents have always been killed.

MACARTHUR: Sure.

KING: Killing is...

CHOPRA: Larry?

KING: Killing is as American as apple pie.

MACARTHUR: It's not going to be a perfect situation, of course.

KING: Yes, Deepak?

CHOPRA: Since 1945, if you look at the statistics, more children have died as a result of war than soldiers. And you know, we have a very convenient term for it. We call it collateral damage. I mean, this is the way, you know, words can soften our perspective of what's really happening. Right now, there are 35 wars going on in the world. And you know, we, this country, which I'm proud to be a citizen of, is the purveyor of weapons of mass destruction all over the world. We are the largest seller, trader and...

KING: So, all right, what then, Char...

CHOPRA: We make the weapons that kill us frequently.

KING: We do evil things, too, right?

MARGOLIS: We do evil because...

KING: OK. MARGOLIS: ... one of the laws of the Ten Commandments is thou shalt not kill. OK? So...

KING: We've all broken that, right?

MARGOLIS: I grew up with the Ten Commandments. And I believe in them. But I also believe that thoughts have power, and that's why prayer is important. And our biggest problem in the world is communication. One person's angel is another person's devil.

KING: How do you change that?

MARGOLIS: How do we change it? By educating the children, by allowing people to be free, to have their beliefs...

KING: But your education may not be his education.

MARGOLIS: Well, that's true.

KING: Who does the educating?

MARGOLIS: Well, it has to start somewhere and it has to start with communication. And people basing it in love and compassion for others.

KING: But if they're born out of pain and anger, you're asking them to love something...

MARGOLIS: But that's where the mental health world comes in.

KING: OK. Let me get a break and we'll come right back with more. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Let's include some calls. Ann Arbor, Michigan. Hello.

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Hi.

CALLER: Hi. I just have one question. Maybe the father can answer this best.

KING: OK.

CALLER: What I was taught -- because I'm a traditional Catholic -- is that God created man and he gave them the inherent -- we were all born with the inherent choice to choose between good and evil. I mean, if we follow that line of thinking, don't we have a choice (AUDIO GAP) evil?

KING: Father?

KEITER: Yes. As created by God, we are created good. But if we go back to creation -- the story of Adam and Eve -- you know, when man chose -- when sin entered the world, it came into the world through that choice to, you know, take from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But that was a choice. So that potential of evil existed. And through the choice, the choice to sin, then evil entered the world. So we -- you know, any time we sin, you know, yes, ultimately it's becoming that evil's entering the world through our...

KING: How -- how father could a baby be born with the sin of something that happened 5,000 years ago, 20 million years ago?

KEITER: As human beings, correct, they are not the perpetrators of that original sin. But we as human beings, you know born even 2,000 years later, we suffer the effects of original sin. And so in the Catholic faith -- in the Christian faith and when we speak of Baptism, and that washing away of original sin, you know, we're still affected. Our will has been weakened. And it's much easier to fall into those temptations.

KING: Montague, California.

CALLER: Good evening, Larry. How are you?

KING: Fine.

CALLER: My question is for Pastor MacArthur. Somewhere in scripture it talks about the curses of man being passed on from generation to generation. I just wanted to know his thoughts on how that would be today on the subject that we're talking about and he has blessed my heart for many years. So, thank you.

MACARTHUR: Thank you very much. Yes, I think that that's the real issue. God created the world good. Man fell, as we just heard, he fell into sin. And when he fell, the whole race went with him because the whole race was in the loins of Adam and Eve. All that came out of that bear the weight of that fall.

KING: Just from eating an apple?

MACARTHUR: Well, from disobeying God, from distrusting God and believing Satan, rather than God, which was blasphemy toward God. Serious sin, not just eating an apple. Then what happens in the New Testament it says, as in Adam, all died. The whole race went down the drain. There's goodness left in the world, because the image of God is still there though it's marred and it's scarred by our fallenness, we still see that image there. We still see vestiges of that goodness. But the heart of man the bible says, is still wicked and evil and needs redemption. And that's where the gospel comes.

KING: Roger, you're an FBI guy that became a seminarian.

Do you believe that?

DEPUE: I believe that, yes. I think that -- that Jesus Christ was a redeemer, and that we desperately needed redemption. The problem is that not enough people are accepting that concept that we all need redemption.

KING: And why don't they accept it?

DEPUE: I think it's largely because the early childhood, it's an educational process. It's a socialization process. And we're not doing a very good job, especially in this day and age, of imparting those basic truths, those universal truths to our younger generation.

KING: Do you believe that, Char?

MARGOLIS: Yes, I do think that it starts in the home.

KING: And these are universal truths?

MARGOLIS: Yes, I think there are certain universal truths. But everyone's truth is a little bit different. So people need to kind of maybe have one basic simple rule to follow.

KING: Isn't there that one law that covers everybody in the world. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

MARGOLIS: And I think that's really wise of you to say. I agree with you.

KING: That covers -- that covers the red light and it covers income tax evasion and it covers murder. Right.

MARGOLIS: I agree with you.

KING: It covers everything. Do unto others...

MACARTHUR: But there's another one, the Old Testament gave before that. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.

KING: If you would do unto others as you would have them do unto you, you're a pretty good guy.

MACARTHUR: Yes, you'll get along with men. You'll get along with men. The question is how are you going to get along with God?

KING: Yes, but that I'll worry about later. If you do unto others as you have them do unto you, you're pretty good. You could be an atheist.

MARGOLIS: Right.

KEITER: But that's that tension -- but that's that tension...

MACARTHUR: You'll be a nicer atheist. You'll be able to get along with...

KING: Well, I'd rather be -- wouldn't you rather be a nicer atheist than be a bad Christian?

MACARTHUR: I'd rather be a Christian.

KEITER: That tension that exist within us, as far as we are, you know, to love God with all of our heart, mind and soul. But yet at that same time, you know, when we speak about being a good person, we need to be following, you know, the truth, the beauty, the goodness in which God has created us and how we treat other human beings. And there is that dichotomy that's going on constantly.

CHOPRA: Larry, you know...

KING: Deepak, do I have to believe in God to be good?

CHOPRA: No, you don't have to believe in God to be good. You know, the universe is so set up to express maximum diversity. So whatever you can think of in the realm of human imagination, that behavior exist there. And before we become so self righteous about the whole thing, I think it's important to remember another golden rule from Christ. He said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I think many times the self righteous morality turns out to be a lot of hypocrisy. Because when you look at the most self righteous, moralistic people, they have the deepest darkest shadows.

KEITER: But you know, on that point, if we use Jesus as an example, Jesus hated sin. So objective evil. He hated that. But he loved the sinner. But he loved the sinner.

CHOPRA: But because he was -- yes, that's a very good point. I think that's a very good point, by the way. The Dalai Lama says the same thing. Hate the sin, but not the sinner. And then you can do something about it.

MARGOLIS: And I agree with Deepak, in the Bible they say judge not lest ye be judged. And I have toll you, I love your book.

KING: Let me get a break, we'll be back with more.

MARGOLIS: Deepak, I have to tell you, I love your book, (INAUDIBLE) Spiritual."

KING: We'll be -- we'll be right back with more. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Hudson, North Carolina. Hello.

CALLER: Yes, sir. My question to the panel, is do they believe that there is a God that represents the good, you know, that they keep talking about? And a devil which represents the evil that they talk about? And that you must choose the Lord, Jesus Christ, as you're savior in order to go to heaven. And if you reject the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, that you will die and go to a devil's hell.

KING: No matter what good you do in life?

CALLER: No matter what good that we do in life, we can never be good enough.

KING: What, John MacArthur, what if you don't know about Jesus Christ -- an Aborigines. MACARTHUR: Well, first of all let me say, what she said is a reflection of Biblical Christianity, so it is accurate. If you don't know about the truth, there's no other way to be saved. That's why the Bible commands us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every preacher.

MARGOLIS: What if someone dedicates their life to helping homeless children, and people in third world countries and they happen to be Jewish and they don't accept Christ as their savior.

DEEPAK: Then they go to hell. Then they go to hell, just like you and me.

MARGOLIS: Yes, right. But you know what, there's the law -- I believe in the law of karma, what comes around goes around. And if you're good now, it will come back. And if you do something negative it comes back to you as well.

MACARTHUR: Let me clarify this. Let me just clarify this real simply. OK, there's two religions in world. Just two. One is the true Christian religion of divine accomplishment. You can't be good enough, nobody can. You only get there through Christ, goodness being applied to you when you believe in his death and resurrection. Every other system in the world, Hindu, Muslim, Spiritist, you name it, believes that you get there by your works. Those are the only two. Make your choice. You can pick from all the religions of the world, that's all the same thing. Christianity stands alone based upon the authority of scripture.

KEITER: You have to be careful, though, to say that Jesus Christ is my personal lord and savior and then believe that I'm going to be saved and I can do whatever I want is not true.

MACARTHUR: That's right.

KEITER: We believe in Jesus Christ, but then our actions need to exhume and show that we believe in Jesus Christ and how we live and how we act definitely has to display that, not just the statement.

MACARTHUR: You know what, I would go so far as to say that if they don't display that, then you're not a Christian, you don't have Christ, Christ doesn't reside in your life, you don't possess the Holy Spirit, because if you do, you will be transformed. You'll be a new creation.

KING: Why do bad things happen to good people? Do you know the answer to that, Deepak? Why do bad things happen to good people?

CHOPRA: I don't know. I don't know.

KING: Roger, do you know?

CHOPRA: The mystery of karma is inexplicable.

KING: Roger, do you know why bad things happen to good people? DEPUE: I have an idea, sure. Life is a test. It appears to me that life is a test and that as we go through these series of tests, some of them are painful. There's suffering in the world. But God brings goodness out of suffering. And brings goodness out of evil. The most evil act that ever occurred was the crucifixion Of Jesus Christ. And look what the bountiful Christian religion brought out of that.

But more than that, let me just say one other thing. And that is -- not more than that, but in addition to that, it's kind of like becoming an athlete. You have to suffer, you have to go through pain to become good at what you do. And we've all had experiences where we've lost a loved one or something tremendously evil has happened in our lives, yet we have grown and we've become better. Look at 9/11.

KING: But it didn't help the person that got hit in the head.

DEPUE: Look at the heroism that came out of 9/11.

KING: But that didn't help the person that leaped off the building and died.

MARGOLIS: I believe that life is a school and we're here to learn. And with all due respect, and I believe in many of the things in the Bible and I practice them. But man wrote the Bible. And man makes mistakes. None of us are perfect.

KING: Let me get a break and be back with more. We just touched the surface. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Tampa, Florida, hello.

CALLER: Yes, this is to Deepak Chopra. President Bush said God wants everyone to be free. But over 100,000 Iraqi men, women and children have died since we invaded their country. Do you believe God would approve of people being killed in order to spread freedom? Isn't something wrong with that picture?

CHOPRA: Something's drastically wrong. And that's President Bush's idea of God, what can we say?

KING: But all war is fought with God on their side?

CHOPRA: Of course. God has been -- religion has become divisive, quarrelsome and idiotic.

KING: But that isn't God's fault?

CHOPRA: That's not God's fault. It's the institutionalization of the truth that becomes the problem. You know, God gave humans the truth, and then the devil came and he said let's organize it, we'll call it religion.

KING: Beverly Hills, California, hello. CALLER: Yeah, hello. I'm confused about a few things. When my mother passed on, ten evil people were against me only because of money. In the Bible, the old testament, it said an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. The New Testament says forgive them, because they do not know better. Which way do you go here?

KING: John?

MACARTHUR: Yes, the Old Testament "La elex telioniun" (ph) "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" was given to the national entity of Israel as a governmental principle based in the justice system so that if somebody committed a crime a punishment consistent with that crime was to be brought upon that person's head, that's just justice.

Thou shalt not kill means do not murder someone. But if you commit that murder, then you lose your life, capital punishment. But nonetheless, the principle of forgiveness still exists. You forgive the person no matter what they do against you. That doesn't preclude government doing what it should do to bring about justice in the case of crime.

KEITER: The viewer's question also show transformation that takes place. I mean, in the Old Testament even prior to eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, it was you hurt someone in my family, I wipe out your family. And then it progressed to an eye to an eye. And then with Jesus Christ, we have this complete transformation, it was forgiveness, turn the other cheek.

MARGOLIS: Well, you know what, you don't cast pearls before a swine. And if you understand karma, you know that if people don't get it back in this world, they're going to get it back in the next world. They're going to pay for it.

KING: If you believe that?

MARGOLIS: Because I talk to spirits every day of my life. And I give proof to people and bridge that love...

KING: John, to you that's charlatan, right.

MARGOLIS: And heal, we do so much healing.

KING: But if you believe in there's life after death, you believe she can talk to -- why can't she talk to spirits?

MACARTHUR: No, I think that's very dangerous. The Bible would say she's interacting with demon powers and they all come from the darkness.

MARGOLIS: Well, you know what?

KING: You can say she's proven your point, though.

MARGOLIS: There's good and evil in every religion, in every practice, there's good doctors, bad doctors, good psychiatrists, good priests, bad priests. I mean, come on. There are people who are honorable and ethical, which I am in my work. And I help people with what I do. You can talk to -- I've been doing this for 30 years. You can call any one of my clients.

KING: Deepak, we're running short on time. Are we getting better?

CHOPRA: I think, overall, we're getting better, Larry. But, you know, Christianity is a religion of the meek, of forgiveness, of redemption. And what Christ said is forgive them, for they know not what they do, is another way of saying that everybody is doing the best they can from the level of awareness they're in.

And I think we should understand that there's a rule for love, compassion, understanding and rehabilitation. And not always have this idea that there is absolute good and there's absolute evil and we have to get rid of all the evil people because, you know, that will never solve the problem.

KING: Roger, you have 20 seconds. Roger.

(CROSSTALK)

DEPUE: The problem for me, Larry, is that you can't rehabilitate someone who has never been habilited. And what I mean by that is that...

KING: We're running out of time.

DEPUE: Some of these people have learned to be evil. And we must -- we can't rehabilitate them. We have to go into the prisons and change the way they think.

KING: Thank you all very much. John MacArthur, Deepak Chopra, Father Jim Keiter, Char Margolis and Roger Depue, author of "Between Good and Evil" on tonight's edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

MARGOLIS: Thank you so much.

KING: Tomorrow night, we'll repeat our discussion of the cancer that has afflicted Peter Jennings. And Sunday night, we'll repeat the program what happens when you die.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 22, 2005 - 21:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, what makes someone kill? Why does God allow innocent children to be abducted and murdered? Is good actually stalked by evil? Spiritual leaders and other experts debate these profound, eternal and unsettling questions.
Dr. John MacArthur, Christian pastor of Grace Community Church in Southern California, also a best-selling author and a host of the Global Ministry Grace to You.

Deepak Chopra, the world renowned spiritual teacher and best- selling author.

Father Jim Keiter, Catholic priest and editor at large of Catholicexchange.com.

Plus Char Margolis, spiritual intuitive and best-selling author.

And Roger Depue, the legendary criminal profiler, formerly with the FBI, author of a remarkable new book "Between Good and Evil." And they're all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Interesting topic tonight. Let's start with Roger. His new book "Between Good and Evil: A Master Profiler's Hunt For Society's Most Violent Predators." Interesting is that Roger Depue headed the FBI's -- there you see the cover of the book -- he headed the FBI's behavioral science unit, worked for the Bureau for 21 years and after retiring, joined a seminary and became a religious brother.

What is your concept, Roger, of evil?

ROGER DEPUE, FRM. FBI AGENT: Evil is the -- that which is not beneficial to a person's emotional well-being or general well-being. In other words, evil is destructive to one's personal well-being.

KING: Do you think it is -- with all your study of behavioral science and profiles, do you think there are people born evil?

DEPUE: It's an interesting question. There may be some genetic predispositions for evil, but I think that the majority of it is from the developmental process. The period of upbringing, socialization, if you will.

KING: So you don't believe in the bad seed or criminal mind?

DEPUE: I think that there's possible -- it's possible that there's a genetic predisposition to evil. Many traits are inherited, but I think it's the way the person lives in society and the experiences that he has which brings out this evil potential into reality.

KING: Deepak Chopra what do you believe?

DEEPAK CHOPRA, AUTHOR: Well, I believe that there are two forces in the universe. The first is creativity, and evolution and truth, goodness and harmony. And then there is the force of entropy, and inertia, and chaos, and separation, and anger and rage. It's our shadow self. All experiences by contrast.

I don't think people are evil. I think what happens is we have these two tendencies, divine and diabolical, the sinner and the saint, the sacred and profane. And what happens is when there are certain conditions like extreme degradation, lack of respect, sense of injustice, that fuels this for separation, anger and rage.

Because in our subconscious mind, we have these atavistic, primitive impulses that are dark and dangerous and secret. And it's potential in everyone. It's not that certain people are evil, it's a potential in everyone.

KING: John MacArthur, what do you believe?

JOHN MACARTHUR, PASTOR: Well, I think it's not only a potential in everyone, I think it's a reality in everyone.

KING: We all have some evil in us?

MACARTHUR: Absolutely. The Bible is very clear on that. All of us are evil. All have sinned, the Bible says.

KING: So, how then how do we separate? We put some in jail, and some we don't.

MACARTHUR: Evil doesn't manifest in all of us the same way. Not everybody is as bad as it is possible to be. There are restraints -- restraints because we've been taught moral law, the way we've been brought up, because we have come to know God, there's a Holy Spirit restraint, there's restraint by conscience, there's restraint by law and government. I mean, not everybody is as bad as they could be.

But I think that -- Roger Depue pointed out a really important point, he was talking about one of the guys in the FBI that he was speaking with who said to him, it is really easy to get into the criminal mind. And he said he lay down at night, this friend of his, and said, my God, that's me.

And I think every one of us know down inside there's potential for evil there and reality of evil is there.

KING: Char, what do you believe?

CHAR MARGOLIS, AUTHOR: I believe life is a school and we're here to learn. Life is like a battery, it is all made up of energy. And there's a positive and negative energy. A battery doesn't run unless there's a positive and negative charge. And we're always being tested and tempted by the negative or the evil energy or the negative energy, but goodness has more power than evil. But you have to work harder for it to win.

KING: And some might call this the devil, right?

MARGOLIS: Yeah, but I think there's also different levels. I don't think there's good and evil. I think -- I believe that there's a spirit world. And as in everyday life there are good and bad people, in the spirit world there are good and bad people.

And in the spirit world, there are different neighborhoods we can go to. And it depends on how we live, what our actions are, our conscience. When we die it is not how famous we are, how rich we are, it is our deeds. What did we do. And did we live with a clear conscience of goodness and love and compassion for others.

KING: Father Keiter what do you believe?

FATHER JIM KEITER, CATHOLIC PRIEST: We're obviously, on this journey to perfection. And so there's a constant struggle within each of us as created by God this evil and this good. And throughout life, through the constraints, the restraints that the other guests just mentioned, we learn through moral law, we learn through our parents, we learn through teachers and so forth. These are strengths. And the ultimate perfection, when we reach that, we choose good and we avoid sin, we avoid evil.

KING: And how about those who choose bad?

KEITER: You know what? That's the mystery in how God has created us. You know, we as Catholics believe that God has created us in this journey, this journey towards perfection, but he's created with us that free will, that free choice to choose. And there's within that choice is where exists that potential evil at all times.

KING: Roger, how do you look at the predator who says, I can't help it? I see a young person and I can't help it. Is that a choice?

DEPUE: I would, first of all, say that I see it as a continuum between good and evil. And that some people are clustered more on the good side, some closer to the evil side. Hopefully, most of us are somewhere closer to the good side.

However, there are people, Larry, who enjoy hurting others. There are people who enjoy killing. Ted Bundy, for instance, talked about how he enjoyed in the strangulation of his victim, how he enjoyed the moment when life passed from the eyes of the victim. And that made him feel like God.

And so here we're talking about a person who is very close to that edge of evil. And I think that much of that begins early in life. And has to do with a fantasy life where the person begins to have thoughts of evil and begins to nurture them and eventually they become a fantasy. And the fantasy moves toward an obsession and the obsession then... KING: Takes over.

DEPUE: ...allows him to have less and less control, that's correct.

KING: Deepak, what compels someone to harm a child?

CHOPRA: Well, that is a particular illness, I think. You know, when people go after children that is definitely impulse that is psychopathological.

But you know, in general, most people who do hurtful things have been harmed themselves. They've been the subject of abuse, or they've been brought up in degrading conditions.

KING: But that's not an excuse, is it?

CHOPRA: Sorry?

KING: Is that an excuse or a reason?

CHOPRA: No, it's an understanding. Unless we have understanding -- you know, if you always have this polarization that we are good and everybody else is evil, which we right now have this in our international conflicts, there's never going to be a resolution, because each side demonizes the other. You know? We are perceived as evil by our perceived enemies.

So we have to have an understanding of the conditions that create that. And if you don't do that, there will never be a resolution. It is always this fight between good and evil.

KING: We'll take a break and be back with more. Later, we'll include your phone calls. Our subject tonight is good and evil. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're talking about good and evil.

John MacArthur, do you understand the sexual predator of a young child?

MACARTHUR: I cannot comprehend that. I cannot comprehend anything...

KING: Is that the ultimate evil act?

MACARTHUR: On a human level, yes. On a human level, that has to be.

KING: What if it's not -- what if the person doing it has no control over the urge to do it?

MACARTHUR: I think by the time they do it, they have no control over it. It's how they got there. And how we have to go back to the beginning and see to put restraints on these kind of people so they don't end up that way. That's a series of choices that get you to that point.

KING: How do you spot them? You think it's a choice, someone chooses too?

MACARTHUR: I think there's a series of choices that begin in childhood maybe, because -- maybe informed by parental things, as you heard. It may be because of abusive situation in the home. Somewhere along the line, and the breakdown of the family and the breakdown of Godly character in the home and family, we potentate this kind of thing and those kinds of bizarre people who go that direction ultimately.

KING: What of the spiritual world -- you represent that world -- what does it thing of...

MARGOLIS: Well, first of all, I think it is really important for people to have healthy mental health. I think psychology is a very important field. And that thoughts create reality. Thoughts are things. And we have free will. We have choice. And it's not all planned out, because we're here to learn lessons, so we have a choice to do good or bad.

KING: Are you saying a predator of a 6-year-old boy chooses that he wants to do...

MARGOLIS: Well, first of all, if their parents hurt them or molested them, maybe they feel it's OK to do that. But if they were psychologically healthy, they wouldn't be doing this. And a lot of times, fathers are doing this to their kids, and the mother knows about it and doesn't want anyone to see it, so they put it under the carpet because they don't want to cause problems in the marriage.

KING: But then we go back to why is the father doing it to the kid?

MARGOLIS: Well, yes, exactly. Why is he doing it? Because some how he's either -- because either he's chemically imbalanced. But also in the spirit world, just one second, please. Sorry. I think that we all are guided by the universe. And if you want to call it God -- and I believe in God -- spirits that to me God is love. And that sometimes those trickster energies can come in and also influence...

KING: So it is not controlled by the person? The trickster coming in?

MARGOLIS: No, no. I'm just saying that sometimes that can happen.

KING: So then are we controlling it or not?

MARGOLIS: Sometimes we are and sometimes we're not.

KING: How do we know when we're not? MARGOLIS: Not everything in life is black and white.

MACARTHUR: And I would agree with that. I think, you can get so out of control in your life, that you yield up to demon power. Great illustration of that in the life of Jesus, there was a boy possessed of a demon. And the demon kept slamming the boy into the fire. This is classic destruction of a child in the scripture. And it was the demon that was slamming -- now you can ask the question how did that demon get residence in that boy? And of course, sin opens up anybody to that potential.

KING: We don't have all the answers, though, do we?

MACARTHUR: We don't know the exact answer to that.

KING: Father, is your church which was faced with the problem of this, has it investigated the whys, why someone does this?

KEITER: First of all, you know, it's an atrocity that, one, I personally cannot fathom. But when we talk about evil, I think we do need to make the distinction that evil can -- is objective. In that we as human beings, we're created by God. As created by God, we always seek the good. So even when we sin, we're not choosing an evil, we're seeing a good. And that's the great mystery and that's the malfeasance that takes place. The lie that takes place of evil. We actually are seeing something that's good, but because of culture, because of environment as we've heard, because of upbringing, the lack of family life, all these things, you know a person might not -- I mean, when you said they don't have that opportunity to choose the good, if they're in that presence and they're just so compelling, it's an addiction.

KING: Are you saying that the sinner thinks he's doing good?

KEITER: The sinner, as we believe as Catholics, as a human being we can only choose the good. And so when we sin, we're actually choosing something that we think is good, but objectively, it is evil. For example, a mother that may go out and steal bread to feed her child. Well, the intention of that mother is to feed the child. The circumstances is she needs to care for the child. But objectively stealing is always evil. It's always a sin.

MACARTHUR: That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Because you can talk about bread, but what are you going to talk about, when you talk about a predator. What are going to talk, when you talk about a guy burying a girl -- a little tiny girl in plastic bags alive in the...

KING: And the answer is you don't have an answer?

MACARTHUR: Well, The answer is this, that's not good no matter how you cut it. That's not somebody seeking good.

MARGOLIS: I agree.

(CROSSTALK) MACARTHUR: horrible evil.

KEITER: But that person...

KING: What are you saying, father?

KEITER: But that person that's committing that horrid crime at that moment in their minds, they don't see a wrong. I mean, something is compelling them to do that.

MARGOLIS: Oh, come on. Look, if you're raised with knowing good and bad as a child, you're going to know what's right and long.

KING: So, wait a minute. No, I'll back him up a minute. So in other words, this person doing this is saying, I know I'm evil, oh, boy I'm bad. You're saying they're saying that?

MARGOLIS: I think -- I think some people...

KING: The villain combs his hair in the morning.

MARGOLIS: I think some of them are and some of them aren't.

KING: Well, that's easy to say.

MARGOLIS: But some of them are -- but there is no answer -- there's no cut clean answer to this. Some of them are and some of them aren't. But many people know right and wrong. Weren't you taught right and wrong from your parents?

KING: Let me -- yes. But also -- all right, I'll get to the question of who's right is who's wrong. Who's evil is who's good?

We'll be right back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Now, Roger Depue, the men who took those planes on 9/11 into buildings, they thought that they were killing evil people. They thought that America was evil. So isn't a lot of this perspective? Now, we view that as an evil act, but if they view us as evil, where's the balance?

DEPUE: Yeah, I think that perspective is a good word, Larry. And what we need to do is put a lot of these things that we're talking about in perspective. The people make decisions and they're responsible for their decisions. We were talking about the child as a victim of the predator. I just wanted to weigh in on that for a minute.

I've never met a child molester who didn't believe that he was doing no harm to the child. I mean, they all believe that they're not hurting the child. In fact, the child likes it, enjoys it, and so there's no harm done. What they don't understand is that they're -- is that they're interfering with that child's future, that that child will probably never be able to have a normal sex life because of that experience.

KING: But why don't they know that? Why doesn't the victimizer not know that?

DEPUE: I think it's because we all have basic needs. Every human being has approximately 25 basic needs; one of them is sexual gratification. I think that's what father was talking about, in that the needs themselves are good.

However, if we have unsatisfied needs, what happens is that we begin to -- we begin to seek satisfaction. In other words, if you take a need like recognition, if you don't get enough recognition as a child, then you seek attention. You seek recognition. If you get too much recognition, then you're spoiled, you think that everyone in the world owes you adulation.

You see what I'm saying? And so walking down the middle line is critical for all 25 of these needs.

One of them is sexual gratification. If in your childhood, you have your need for sexual gratification satisfied in some bizarre way, then that carries with you. And there are many kinds of pedophiles. There's a fixated pedophile that will zero in on a child, let's say, between 8 and 10 before puberty. And that -- that molester may be -- may have been a victim at that time in their life. And so that idea of sexuality with children at that time in your life may become fixated. And now...

KING: I got you. Hold it. Deepak, I want to move with other -- there's so much to cover here.

CHOPRA: Sure, I know.

KING: Deepak, if they...

CHOPRA: There's one very important question that you raised, and that is...

KING: If the men on 9/11 thought they were attacking evil...

CHOPRA: Absolutely.

KING: ... then is it perspective? Who's evil is whose?

CHOPRA: It's perspective in that case. But you know, coming back to pedophilia and whether there's a choice or not, this is the eternal argument, you know, do we live in a universe of determinism or free will. And the answer is, it's simultaneously both. You know, if you don't have awareness, if your consciousness is constricted and fearful and isolated and you've been subjected to trauma and child abuse, then you more or less become a bundle of conditioned reflexes and nerves that's constantly triggered by people and circumstance into very predictable outcomes.

So many of these pedophiles cannot help themselves. And you know, not to really belabor the point, but there's been a huge scandal of pedophilia in the Catholic Church. And, you know, these are very good, upright people, brought up with high moral standards, but the repression and the guilt and the moral rage that comes with that allows this shadow to emerge. And these Catholic priests can't help themselves.

KING: John, don't you think that very often doctrinaire creates this?

CHOPRA: Absolutely.

MACARTHUR: No...

KING: You don't think so?

MACARTHUR: I would take another approach to that. I would say that's potentially true, but I would say the only thing that is going to end everybody having their own standards of what is right and wrong, the only thing is to have a uniform authority, a single set of laws that govern the whole world.

And that's of course why the Bible was written. God's law is there. It's explicit about how we conduct ourselves in this world.

KING: But there are moral people who don't believe that law.

MACARTHUR: Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it is the law of God. And if everybody does right in their own eyes, then you got a collision...

CHOPRA: There are five billion people on this planet. Not everybody is a Christian.

MACARTHUR: I didn't talk about being a Christian, although I wish everybody on the planet were a Christian.

CHOPRA: I know you would. I know you would.

MACARTHUR: But at the same time, I'm talking about law. I'm talking about moral law, given by God.

CHOPRA: Moral law is a byproduct of your awareness. It's not some law that you follow and...

(CROSSTALK)

MACARTHUR: Then I am the source of moral law? I don't think so. I think God is the source of that moral law. And that's...

CHOPRA: In your case, the definition of God is just, you know, some...

KING: Where does our -- where does it come from, Char? Where does our morality come from?

MARGOLIS: I think it comes from what we learn as a child. And also what our conscience tells us. KING: And where does the conscience come from?

MARGOLIS: Our conscience, I feel, comes from our guidance from a divine being -- call it God, call it the universe, call it ...

KING: What about sociopaths?

MARGOLIS: ... you know, Allah or God or Christ. Whatever, it doesn't matter, if we are all based in love and compassion and truth with one another.

KEITER: Larry, that last word that she said is truth, and that's the main thing that we really need to be focusing on here, is there's objective truth. When he was -- John was just referring to moral law, I mean, we could -- instead of saying moral law in relation to Christianity, we can just talk about natural law. And we're talking about objective truth. And what's going on in the culture and the world today is we have cultural relativism, individualistic relativism, where people are creating their own moral law rather than it being objective. For one person, this is a lie and for someone else it's not.

MARGOLIS: You know what the biggest problem is?

DEPUE: Larry, I just wanted to make one observation...

KING: Let me get a break in, and then we'll pick right up with hat. We'll take a break. I'll re-introduce the panel. We'll also include your phone calls. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Let me re-introduce our panel. John MacArthur, in addition to the others, is president of the Masters College and founder of the Masters Seminary.

Deepak Chopra is "The New York Times" best-selling author. One of his latest books is "The Seven Spiritual Laws of Success."

Father Jim Keiter is the editor at large of the CatholicExchange.com and pastor of Assumption parish in Omaha, Nebraska.

Char Margolis is a spiritual intuitive and author. Her newest book is "Life: The Spiritual Intuitive's Collection of Inspirational Thoughts." And there you see its cover.

And in Washington is Roger Depue, the retired chief of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit. Worked for the bureau for 21 years. After retiring, joined a seminary, became a religious brother, and is author of "Between Good and Evil: A Master Profiler's Hunt for Society's Most Violent Predators."

Before we take calls, you wanted to add something, Roger?

DEPUE: Yes, I just wanted to talk a little bit about the nature of life itself. If we look at life, we'll get some ideas about how people come to be the way they are. We begin as an infant with a totally selfish perspective. We're totally concerned with our own self and gratification of our own needs. But as we grow through childhood and move toward adulthood, the other becomes important. And so you have self on one side and other on the other. And we move from self to other, and we begin to realize the importance of others in our lives. And that goes all the way to the point of others being the common good, and even to the extent that in marriage we give ourselves to the other; the other gives themselves to us.

And then we go to the furthest extreme, and that is the other with the capital "O." And that's the religious concept, where we want to do the will of God and we completely submerge our personal self to the will of the other.

KING: How does that take us to evil?

DEPUE: Now, what I want to say is that in this whole selfishness, if we don't move toward the importance of the other, that's what happens. We become narcissistic. We become overwhelmed with our own importance and the satisfaction of our own needs no matter what. And I think M. Scott Peck referred to this as "the malignant narcissist." And many of these people fall into that category.

KING: Deepak, were the men who took the planes on 9/11, were they evil?

CHOPRA: Well, certainly from our perspective, they were. And anybody who...

KING: But from theirs, they weren't?

CHOPRA: From theirs, they weren't. I mean, you know, it's traditional, as I said, to demonize the enemy. Unless you do that, it's impossible to kill. So you know, we end up comparing our ideas of acceptable slaughter. So we don't think it's evil to drop a bomb with depleted uranium. And if women and children die on the streets, we call it collateral damage. From the other side's perspective, that's evil.

But of course, our idea of worse form of slaughter is a beheading or a suicide bombing. So you know, it is all a question of your cultural, your religious and your spiritual indoctrination.

KING: Well said. Now, John, how do you balance that? They don't think they're evil. They think you're evil?

MACARTHUR: Right, and I think you have to go back to the standard, the universal standard of the law of God which is that killing is evil.

KING: Therefore, we kill, and they kill, we're all evil?

MACARTHUR: The next question to ask is, are they the evil aggressor or are they the defender of those that are being killed? KING: They would argue that with you.

MACARTHUR: Well, they would say they are -- but there's no question they were the evil aggressor. I mean, the people they killed were not attacking them. The bottom line is, you can justify a war on the basis of defending people from deadly force that is being pushed upon them. Always in our country, we have stood for the people that are being harmed.

KING: Yeah, but if you're a mailman in Hiroshima, that explanation ain't going to go far.

MACARTHUR: I understand that. I understand that.

KING: It ain't going to work.

MACARTHUR: I'm not saying it's a perfect -- it's a perfect solution. But I at least can say there's a place to stand up and defend people who are being destroyed.

KING: Well, obviously, those people were innocents.

MACARTHUR: I mean, stopping Hitler with World War II, you know.

KING: But other innocents have always been killed.

MACARTHUR: Sure.

KING: Killing is...

CHOPRA: Larry?

KING: Killing is as American as apple pie.

MACARTHUR: It's not going to be a perfect situation, of course.

KING: Yes, Deepak?

CHOPRA: Since 1945, if you look at the statistics, more children have died as a result of war than soldiers. And you know, we have a very convenient term for it. We call it collateral damage. I mean, this is the way, you know, words can soften our perspective of what's really happening. Right now, there are 35 wars going on in the world. And you know, we, this country, which I'm proud to be a citizen of, is the purveyor of weapons of mass destruction all over the world. We are the largest seller, trader and...

KING: So, all right, what then, Char...

CHOPRA: We make the weapons that kill us frequently.

KING: We do evil things, too, right?

MARGOLIS: We do evil because...

KING: OK. MARGOLIS: ... one of the laws of the Ten Commandments is thou shalt not kill. OK? So...

KING: We've all broken that, right?

MARGOLIS: I grew up with the Ten Commandments. And I believe in them. But I also believe that thoughts have power, and that's why prayer is important. And our biggest problem in the world is communication. One person's angel is another person's devil.

KING: How do you change that?

MARGOLIS: How do we change it? By educating the children, by allowing people to be free, to have their beliefs...

KING: But your education may not be his education.

MARGOLIS: Well, that's true.

KING: Who does the educating?

MARGOLIS: Well, it has to start somewhere and it has to start with communication. And people basing it in love and compassion for others.

KING: But if they're born out of pain and anger, you're asking them to love something...

MARGOLIS: But that's where the mental health world comes in.

KING: OK. Let me get a break and we'll come right back with more. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Let's include some calls. Ann Arbor, Michigan. Hello.

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Hi.

CALLER: Hi. I just have one question. Maybe the father can answer this best.

KING: OK.

CALLER: What I was taught -- because I'm a traditional Catholic -- is that God created man and he gave them the inherent -- we were all born with the inherent choice to choose between good and evil. I mean, if we follow that line of thinking, don't we have a choice (AUDIO GAP) evil?

KING: Father?

KEITER: Yes. As created by God, we are created good. But if we go back to creation -- the story of Adam and Eve -- you know, when man chose -- when sin entered the world, it came into the world through that choice to, you know, take from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. But that was a choice. So that potential of evil existed. And through the choice, the choice to sin, then evil entered the world. So we -- you know, any time we sin, you know, yes, ultimately it's becoming that evil's entering the world through our...

KING: How -- how father could a baby be born with the sin of something that happened 5,000 years ago, 20 million years ago?

KEITER: As human beings, correct, they are not the perpetrators of that original sin. But we as human beings, you know born even 2,000 years later, we suffer the effects of original sin. And so in the Catholic faith -- in the Christian faith and when we speak of Baptism, and that washing away of original sin, you know, we're still affected. Our will has been weakened. And it's much easier to fall into those temptations.

KING: Montague, California.

CALLER: Good evening, Larry. How are you?

KING: Fine.

CALLER: My question is for Pastor MacArthur. Somewhere in scripture it talks about the curses of man being passed on from generation to generation. I just wanted to know his thoughts on how that would be today on the subject that we're talking about and he has blessed my heart for many years. So, thank you.

MACARTHUR: Thank you very much. Yes, I think that that's the real issue. God created the world good. Man fell, as we just heard, he fell into sin. And when he fell, the whole race went with him because the whole race was in the loins of Adam and Eve. All that came out of that bear the weight of that fall.

KING: Just from eating an apple?

MACARTHUR: Well, from disobeying God, from distrusting God and believing Satan, rather than God, which was blasphemy toward God. Serious sin, not just eating an apple. Then what happens in the New Testament it says, as in Adam, all died. The whole race went down the drain. There's goodness left in the world, because the image of God is still there though it's marred and it's scarred by our fallenness, we still see that image there. We still see vestiges of that goodness. But the heart of man the bible says, is still wicked and evil and needs redemption. And that's where the gospel comes.

KING: Roger, you're an FBI guy that became a seminarian.

Do you believe that?

DEPUE: I believe that, yes. I think that -- that Jesus Christ was a redeemer, and that we desperately needed redemption. The problem is that not enough people are accepting that concept that we all need redemption.

KING: And why don't they accept it?

DEPUE: I think it's largely because the early childhood, it's an educational process. It's a socialization process. And we're not doing a very good job, especially in this day and age, of imparting those basic truths, those universal truths to our younger generation.

KING: Do you believe that, Char?

MARGOLIS: Yes, I do think that it starts in the home.

KING: And these are universal truths?

MARGOLIS: Yes, I think there are certain universal truths. But everyone's truth is a little bit different. So people need to kind of maybe have one basic simple rule to follow.

KING: Isn't there that one law that covers everybody in the world. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

MARGOLIS: And I think that's really wise of you to say. I agree with you.

KING: That covers -- that covers the red light and it covers income tax evasion and it covers murder. Right.

MARGOLIS: I agree with you.

KING: It covers everything. Do unto others...

MACARTHUR: But there's another one, the Old Testament gave before that. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength.

KING: If you would do unto others as you would have them do unto you, you're a pretty good guy.

MACARTHUR: Yes, you'll get along with men. You'll get along with men. The question is how are you going to get along with God?

KING: Yes, but that I'll worry about later. If you do unto others as you have them do unto you, you're pretty good. You could be an atheist.

MARGOLIS: Right.

KEITER: But that's that tension -- but that's that tension...

MACARTHUR: You'll be a nicer atheist. You'll be able to get along with...

KING: Well, I'd rather be -- wouldn't you rather be a nicer atheist than be a bad Christian?

MACARTHUR: I'd rather be a Christian.

KEITER: That tension that exist within us, as far as we are, you know, to love God with all of our heart, mind and soul. But yet at that same time, you know, when we speak about being a good person, we need to be following, you know, the truth, the beauty, the goodness in which God has created us and how we treat other human beings. And there is that dichotomy that's going on constantly.

CHOPRA: Larry, you know...

KING: Deepak, do I have to believe in God to be good?

CHOPRA: No, you don't have to believe in God to be good. You know, the universe is so set up to express maximum diversity. So whatever you can think of in the realm of human imagination, that behavior exist there. And before we become so self righteous about the whole thing, I think it's important to remember another golden rule from Christ. He said, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I think many times the self righteous morality turns out to be a lot of hypocrisy. Because when you look at the most self righteous, moralistic people, they have the deepest darkest shadows.

KEITER: But you know, on that point, if we use Jesus as an example, Jesus hated sin. So objective evil. He hated that. But he loved the sinner. But he loved the sinner.

CHOPRA: But because he was -- yes, that's a very good point. I think that's a very good point, by the way. The Dalai Lama says the same thing. Hate the sin, but not the sinner. And then you can do something about it.

MARGOLIS: And I agree with Deepak, in the Bible they say judge not lest ye be judged. And I have toll you, I love your book.

KING: Let me get a break, we'll be back with more.

MARGOLIS: Deepak, I have to tell you, I love your book, (INAUDIBLE) Spiritual."

KING: We'll be -- we'll be right back with more. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Hudson, North Carolina. Hello.

CALLER: Yes, sir. My question to the panel, is do they believe that there is a God that represents the good, you know, that they keep talking about? And a devil which represents the evil that they talk about? And that you must choose the Lord, Jesus Christ, as you're savior in order to go to heaven. And if you reject the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior, that you will die and go to a devil's hell.

KING: No matter what good you do in life?

CALLER: No matter what good that we do in life, we can never be good enough.

KING: What, John MacArthur, what if you don't know about Jesus Christ -- an Aborigines. MACARTHUR: Well, first of all let me say, what she said is a reflection of Biblical Christianity, so it is accurate. If you don't know about the truth, there's no other way to be saved. That's why the Bible commands us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every preacher.

MARGOLIS: What if someone dedicates their life to helping homeless children, and people in third world countries and they happen to be Jewish and they don't accept Christ as their savior.

DEEPAK: Then they go to hell. Then they go to hell, just like you and me.

MARGOLIS: Yes, right. But you know what, there's the law -- I believe in the law of karma, what comes around goes around. And if you're good now, it will come back. And if you do something negative it comes back to you as well.

MACARTHUR: Let me clarify this. Let me just clarify this real simply. OK, there's two religions in world. Just two. One is the true Christian religion of divine accomplishment. You can't be good enough, nobody can. You only get there through Christ, goodness being applied to you when you believe in his death and resurrection. Every other system in the world, Hindu, Muslim, Spiritist, you name it, believes that you get there by your works. Those are the only two. Make your choice. You can pick from all the religions of the world, that's all the same thing. Christianity stands alone based upon the authority of scripture.

KEITER: You have to be careful, though, to say that Jesus Christ is my personal lord and savior and then believe that I'm going to be saved and I can do whatever I want is not true.

MACARTHUR: That's right.

KEITER: We believe in Jesus Christ, but then our actions need to exhume and show that we believe in Jesus Christ and how we live and how we act definitely has to display that, not just the statement.

MACARTHUR: You know what, I would go so far as to say that if they don't display that, then you're not a Christian, you don't have Christ, Christ doesn't reside in your life, you don't possess the Holy Spirit, because if you do, you will be transformed. You'll be a new creation.

KING: Why do bad things happen to good people? Do you know the answer to that, Deepak? Why do bad things happen to good people?

CHOPRA: I don't know. I don't know.

KING: Roger, do you know?

CHOPRA: The mystery of karma is inexplicable.

KING: Roger, do you know why bad things happen to good people? DEPUE: I have an idea, sure. Life is a test. It appears to me that life is a test and that as we go through these series of tests, some of them are painful. There's suffering in the world. But God brings goodness out of suffering. And brings goodness out of evil. The most evil act that ever occurred was the crucifixion Of Jesus Christ. And look what the bountiful Christian religion brought out of that.

But more than that, let me just say one other thing. And that is -- not more than that, but in addition to that, it's kind of like becoming an athlete. You have to suffer, you have to go through pain to become good at what you do. And we've all had experiences where we've lost a loved one or something tremendously evil has happened in our lives, yet we have grown and we've become better. Look at 9/11.

KING: But it didn't help the person that got hit in the head.

DEPUE: Look at the heroism that came out of 9/11.

KING: But that didn't help the person that leaped off the building and died.

MARGOLIS: I believe that life is a school and we're here to learn. And with all due respect, and I believe in many of the things in the Bible and I practice them. But man wrote the Bible. And man makes mistakes. None of us are perfect.

KING: Let me get a break and be back with more. We just touched the surface. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Tampa, Florida, hello.

CALLER: Yes, this is to Deepak Chopra. President Bush said God wants everyone to be free. But over 100,000 Iraqi men, women and children have died since we invaded their country. Do you believe God would approve of people being killed in order to spread freedom? Isn't something wrong with that picture?

CHOPRA: Something's drastically wrong. And that's President Bush's idea of God, what can we say?

KING: But all war is fought with God on their side?

CHOPRA: Of course. God has been -- religion has become divisive, quarrelsome and idiotic.

KING: But that isn't God's fault?

CHOPRA: That's not God's fault. It's the institutionalization of the truth that becomes the problem. You know, God gave humans the truth, and then the devil came and he said let's organize it, we'll call it religion.

KING: Beverly Hills, California, hello. CALLER: Yeah, hello. I'm confused about a few things. When my mother passed on, ten evil people were against me only because of money. In the Bible, the old testament, it said an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. The New Testament says forgive them, because they do not know better. Which way do you go here?

KING: John?

MACARTHUR: Yes, the Old Testament "La elex telioniun" (ph) "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" was given to the national entity of Israel as a governmental principle based in the justice system so that if somebody committed a crime a punishment consistent with that crime was to be brought upon that person's head, that's just justice.

Thou shalt not kill means do not murder someone. But if you commit that murder, then you lose your life, capital punishment. But nonetheless, the principle of forgiveness still exists. You forgive the person no matter what they do against you. That doesn't preclude government doing what it should do to bring about justice in the case of crime.

KEITER: The viewer's question also show transformation that takes place. I mean, in the Old Testament even prior to eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, it was you hurt someone in my family, I wipe out your family. And then it progressed to an eye to an eye. And then with Jesus Christ, we have this complete transformation, it was forgiveness, turn the other cheek.

MARGOLIS: Well, you know what, you don't cast pearls before a swine. And if you understand karma, you know that if people don't get it back in this world, they're going to get it back in the next world. They're going to pay for it.

KING: If you believe that?

MARGOLIS: Because I talk to spirits every day of my life. And I give proof to people and bridge that love...

KING: John, to you that's charlatan, right.

MARGOLIS: And heal, we do so much healing.

KING: But if you believe in there's life after death, you believe she can talk to -- why can't she talk to spirits?

MACARTHUR: No, I think that's very dangerous. The Bible would say she's interacting with demon powers and they all come from the darkness.

MARGOLIS: Well, you know what?

KING: You can say she's proven your point, though.

MARGOLIS: There's good and evil in every religion, in every practice, there's good doctors, bad doctors, good psychiatrists, good priests, bad priests. I mean, come on. There are people who are honorable and ethical, which I am in my work. And I help people with what I do. You can talk to -- I've been doing this for 30 years. You can call any one of my clients.

KING: Deepak, we're running short on time. Are we getting better?

CHOPRA: I think, overall, we're getting better, Larry. But, you know, Christianity is a religion of the meek, of forgiveness, of redemption. And what Christ said is forgive them, for they know not what they do, is another way of saying that everybody is doing the best they can from the level of awareness they're in.

And I think we should understand that there's a rule for love, compassion, understanding and rehabilitation. And not always have this idea that there is absolute good and there's absolute evil and we have to get rid of all the evil people because, you know, that will never solve the problem.

KING: Roger, you have 20 seconds. Roger.

(CROSSTALK)

DEPUE: The problem for me, Larry, is that you can't rehabilitate someone who has never been habilited. And what I mean by that is that...

KING: We're running out of time.

DEPUE: Some of these people have learned to be evil. And we must -- we can't rehabilitate them. We have to go into the prisons and change the way they think.

KING: Thank you all very much. John MacArthur, Deepak Chopra, Father Jim Keiter, Char Margolis and Roger Depue, author of "Between Good and Evil" on tonight's edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

MARGOLIS: Thank you so much.

KING: Tomorrow night, we'll repeat our discussion of the cancer that has afflicted Peter Jennings. And Sunday night, we'll repeat the program what happens when you die.

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