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Nancy Grace

Amber Alert Issued for 12-Year-Old Florida Girl; Debbie Rowe to Testify Tomorrow

Aired April 26, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, we need your help again. An Amber Alert over the airwaves for a 12-year-old Florida girl last seen with a man in a red van.
And Michael Jackson`s ex-wife, Debbie Rowe, is on a collision course with the witness stand and is threatening to rip the Jackson defense wide open.

And more questions tonight after two toddlers found dead in a Georgia pond.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

As the state`s case comes to an end, the evidence ratchets up for the prosecution. Jackson`s ex-wife, the mother of two of his children, set to appear under oath for the state against Michael Jackson.

And 2-year-old Nicole, 3-year-old Jonah Payne touched a nation when the toddlers went missing. Their bodies found in a nearby pond. What happened to Nicole and her brother, Jonah? We are looking for answers.

And help us tonight. An Amber Alert out of Bradenton, Florida, for a missing 12-year-old girl last seen with a man in a red van. There still may be time to save this girl.

Tonight, in Atlanta, defense attorney Ray Giudice; in San Francisco, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz; in New York, psychologist Dr. Jeff Gardere; and with us by phone from Bradenton, Florida, Police Major William Tokajer; and from Sarasota, Clear Channel radio news reporter, Ryan Rafferdy.

First, to Ryan Rafferdy. Bring us up-to-date, friend.

RYAN RAFFERDY, CLEAR CHANNEL RADIO NEWS: Yes. Well, we have, as you said at the top of the show, we have an Amber Alert. The search team has been activated out of Sarasota County. That means the child abduction response team has been activated for 12-year-old Margarita Lopez.

She`s a Hispanic white female, 4`10", 65 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. She was last seen wearing a white shirt and blue pants. She was last seen at a hotel here in the Bradenton area last night, Nancy.

GRACE: My question to you is, what can you tell me about her disappearance?

RAFFERDY: What we can tell her you about her disappearance is that she was last actually seen in the Ruskin area, which is the county just north of Manatee County, where she was reported missing. And she was reported missing from the Bradenton Motel by her brothers early this morning. Prior to that, she was last seen around 7:30 last night.

Now, apparently, she was in the room with a 3- and 4-year-old and with the suspect, 26-year-old Antonio Paulino-Perez. Now, both of these brothers went to the store, the brothers of the missing girl. They came back and the girl and the suspect were gone, but the 3- and the 4-year-old were there at the time.

GRACE: I`ve got a question for you, Ryan. What were these kids doing living in a motel? Were they in school? What was happening to them during the day?

RAFFERDY: According to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, they are migrant workers. The family is migrant workers from Mexico. So that`s why they are here. No word why they`re staying in a motel, though.

GRACE: Let`s go to Major William Tokajer with the Bradenton Police Department.

Major, what can you tell us tonight about the little girl?

WILLIAM TOKAJER, MAJOR, BRADENTON POLICE DEPARTMENT: We are still actively looking for her. We do have an Amber Alert out. We still believe that she is with Antonio Paulino-Perez. Last that they were seen was about 11 o`clock last night at a migrant farm in Ruskin. And they`re said to be in a red Aerostar-style van.

GRACE: Do police have any type of a tag license number for the car?

TOKAJER: No. The car was just recently purchased by Mr. Perez at a flea market in Palmetto. So we don`t even believe it`s actually properly registered yet.

GRACE: So this would be an Aerostar-looking red van without a proper tag on the back? Maybe just sold or what?

TOKAJER: It could have a Florida tag. We`re not really sure what type of tag it has, if any.

GRACE: What I don`t understand, Major, is why the brothers did not report their little sister missing last night.

TOKAJER: I wish that we could actually answer that. The only answer we have is that we believe that both the brothers had been drinking and that clouded their vision, as well as the fact that there is the cultural difference with them being from Mexico, not being here legally, and not wanting to actually interact with the police very much.

GRACE: Let me talk to Ray Giudice about that. Ray, we know the problems that befall illegal immigrants. They`re afraid to go to police about anything. They`re afraid they`ll be deported.

And here, the one paying the price is little girl. What could happen to the brothers now? I think I have got Ray Giudice with me. Ray?

OK. Don`t have Ray. Let`s go to Daniel Horowitz.

Daniel, what could happen to the brothers now?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, first of all, they could be accessories after the fact by hiding her disappearance. But more than that, let`s look at the immigration issue.

Let me tell the police chief and the governor of Florida, put out on the airwaves, if you come forward with information, you will not be deported or prosecuted for being here illegally. This little girl`s life is far more important than immigration issues. And that`s what we`re facing right now with this case.

GRACE: Let me go back to Ray. Ray, can you hear me? No. No, Ray Giudice. All right.

Let me go quickly back to Ryan Rafferdy, Clear Channel radio reporter. Ryan, I understand that this is a red Aerostar-looking van. What was the area in which the little girl was last seen?

RAFFERDY: The area in which she was last seen was Ruskin, Florida, where Sarah Lunde, who was just found murdered a couple of weeks ago, was found and where she was from. The guy, the suspect in this case, apparently lives in Ruskin, Florida. And that`s where they were last spotted.

GRACE: Ryan, could you give me Margarita`s description one more time?

RAFFERDY: Sure. She is 4`10" inches tall. She`s a light Hispanic female, 65 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. She was last seen wearing a white t-shirt and blue pants.

GRACE: You know, what`s interesting here, Dr. Jeff Gardere, children are brought up to go along with whoever is in charge of them.

DR. JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right.

GRACE: And I guarantee you this guy was an acquaintance of the brothers. There are no parents around.

And Elizabeth, if you could keep showing the little girl`s picture, please.

Everybody, take a look at Margarita Aguilar-Lopez. This little girl is missing. She is an illegal immigrant. She was here with her brothers and other family members. Her parents are not here. She is missing out of the Bradenton, Florida, area, last seen with a man in a red Aerostar- looking van. Take a look, please.

Back to you.

GARDERE: Yes.

GRACE: Children will go along willingly with adults. Why?

GARDERE: Well, because that is who may be providing direction. And Nancy, you are right on. This may have been a makeshift family, since the parents of this girl may not have been with them, or was not with them from what we know.

And therefore, the brothers may have thought, hey, look, we can leave her for a little while, while we go out to get whatever we`re getting. But when you mix the alcohol, when you have the lack of boundaries between this makeshift family, that`s a recipe for disaster.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel kind of stranded. Hey, right next door to me, things are happening. And that`s really bad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s too close to home. This is the third one in a couple of weeks. It`s awful. My daughter plays with her all the time. It could have been her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Another issue I have, Dr. Jeff Gardere, is, there had to be people living in that motel. It looked like a motel where you would rent by the week or the month.

GARDERE: That`s right.

GRACE: They had to know these children were there without parents.

GARDERE: Yes.

GRACE: That they were not in school. I mean, the kids come out and play all day long. They know they`re not in school. So why does everybody stand back and do nothing?

GARDERE: I think, Nancy, a lot of people really feel that it`s not their business. As long as everything is going OK, there`s no real trouble or noise coming out of that particular room, that it`s OK. But we do know that there are issues of the alcohol and may have been some issues with violence having to do with the brothers.

GRACE: But you know what? I disagree with you. Just because the brothers may have alcohol issues, that doesn`t mean all the neighbors can`t see the kids are home all day long, not in school, not where they`re supposed to be, totally unsupervised. And now this little girl is paying the price. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOKAJER: The suspect was in the house. He was a friend of the family that was over there, a 24-year-old male. And he left with the girl when her two brothers went to the store.

He took the girl and we have not been able to find her. We haven`t heard from him. We don`t know where he is, except for that he`s possibly left the state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Before we have to go to break, I want to go back to Clear Channel radio news reporter out of Sarasota, Ryan Rafferdy.

Ryan, any idea where the parents are exactly? Have they been contacted?

RAFFERDY: That`s hard to tell at this point. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is working a number of angles with other authorities, including the Mexican police.

And I`d just like to add, Nancy, that state`s law enforcement and states from here to Mexico are being put on alert by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement because, at this point, they are hearing that this guy is heading back to Mexico.

GRACE: OK. Take a look, everybody. Margarita Aguilar-Lopez. We`re flashing a number at the bottom of the screen for you if you have any information. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL LOWE, WARRENTON COUNTY CORONER: As we suspected, we have gotten our results back from the regional crime lab. At this time, Dr. Brown (ph) has ruled the preliminary cause of death is drowning, as we expected. And an investigation will be ongoing. We`ll be looking at some other avenues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Not only the disappearance but the discovery of a little boy and girl, ages two and three, in Georgia have touched a nation. And tonight, still more questions hanging in the air.

Tonight, in Warrenton, Georgia, "Warrenton Clipper" reporter, Karl Haywood; in Minneapolis, coroner and author of "Forever Ours," Dr. Janis Amatuzio; but first, to Augusta, Georgia, WRDW reporter Kristen Cosby joining us.

Kristen, bring me up-to-date, friend.

KRISTEN COSBY, WRDW REPORTER: Well, Nancy, the latest on this case is that the -- first of all, these children were missing Saturday night. They went missing a little before 6 o`clock. Police and the investigators searched for them Saturday night. They searched for them all day Sunday.

Then they went to retrace their steps on Monday and they found them about 12:15. They had fallen into a sewage pond. And they drowned inside of that pond. The mother says she went to the bathroom for five minutes and her children wandered out of the house, unlocked the door, and that`s how they got there. But we have just learned that...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Interesting, Kristen. Last night, the father came on the show and stated the mom was in the bathroom for 15 minutes.

COSBY: That is interesting. They told us five minutes. So there might be a little discrepancy.

GRACE: Yes.

COSBY: But investigators said the mom told them less than five minutes.

GRACE: Where does this stand...

COSBY: But one thing...

GRACE: Go ahead, dear.

COSBY: Go ahead.

I was just going to say, one thing that we just learned about the family just a few minutes ago is that the Department of Family and Children Services has been visiting that family since 2003. They made weekly visits there. And their last visit there on April 20th. And the reason they made those visits is because of lack of supervision. So that`s kind of an interesting point.

GRACE: Well, it`s highly interesting. And in light of the fact that the father told me last night the neighbors had found the children outside before, that the little girl, who was actually the younger of the two, I believe, had learned to get out of the house. And if, you know, she got out of your eyesight, they were out of there.

Let me quickly go to Karl Haywood with the "Warrenton Clipper." For sure, Karl, are the autopsy reports in? And is this final?

KARL HAYWOOD, "WARRENTON CLIPPER": As far as we know, what we heard from Paul Lowe, the coroner, the autopsy results were final, and they determined that the children drowned. There was algae and water in their lungs and their stomach.

GRACE: There was algae in the lungs?

HAYWOOD: That`s what we understand.

GRACE: No. That`s a very interesting point, Dr. Janis Amatuzio, because one of the first things I believe the coroner or the medical examiner would do was test the water in the lungs to see if it was pond water with algae in it or bath water, tap water, clear water. What do you think?

DR. JANIS AMATUZIO, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I don`t think that a coroner or medical examiner might necessarily test the water.

Drowning has a specific type of signature. And basically, understand that, when we do death investigation, we don`t just draw our conclusions from the autopsy. We have to take into account the death scene investigation and the circumstances.

And remember, an autopsy can give you a cause of death, but an entire death investigation is going to give you the manner of death. And that may be, as it sounds in this case, accidental. But I also heard investigators saying that they were still leaving the investigation open to see if there was anything else they needed yet to figure out.

GRACE: Doctor, I think you are correct.

Elizabeth, if you could put the statement up from the coroner. Dr. Amatuzio is actually correct. The statement from the coroner is, "Autopsies were completed today. Preliminary findings indicate drowning cause of death. Investigation ongoing. GBI, Georgia Bureau of Investigations, will be releasing a statement in the next few days on the manner" -- that`s the manner of death. "There are no visible signs of trauma. Death appears accidental."

Doctor, what do you make of it?

AMATUZIO: That sounds to me like they`re doing an absolutely excellent job in this investigation. Understand the most important tool in any death investigation is an open mind. It`s so important that we stick to making observations and wait until all of the facts are in before we draw to a conclusion as to what really happened.

GRACE: Yes.

AMATUZIO: You know, we are really there, as our coroners and medical examiners, and with the whole death investigation team, to say what happened. And so it sounds to me like they`re doing a really excellent job here.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, doctor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOWE: There`s still no evidence of foul play. And we are going to turn our investigation back over to the GBI. And they`ll be concluding, maybe later this afternoon. But right now, there`s no evidence of foul play. And the cause of death is drowning of the toddlers in Warrenton.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Ray Giudice out of the Atlanta CNN center.

Ray, you and I have both dealt with the Georgia medical examiners and local coroners. I don`t see how they can get a full autopsy report as of tonight. I think Dr. Amatuzio is correct.

You can`t just look at the bodies of the children and say, "We don`t see manual strangulation. We don`t see ligature strangulation. We don`t see bruises on the body." The tissue in the body, the lungs, the water in the lungs, their blood, it all has to be tested.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right, Nancy. They have got to start from this crime scene from the house all the way to the pond and back again. They have got to look at the fence. They have got to look at the area where these kids may have climbed under. And they have got to continue to examine the parents.

I understand there`s been some preliminary decisions about the parents, but they have got to continue to push on that. Both of these terrible stories show a consistent pattern of our failure as a society to protect little kids and children, both as neighbors, and friends, and parents.

GRACE: Now, hold on. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. DFCS, Department of Family and Children Services, Ray, according to the reporter, Kristen Cosby, had been out there -- Kristen, did you say on a weekly basis? Did I hear correctly?

Because normally, when you read a story in the paper, it`s because DFCS didn`t go and the children end up dead. In this case, they were going weekly?

COSBY: That`s correct. Weekly since 2003.

GRACE: And what prompted DFCS going weekly since 2003? I`m stunned.

COSBY: There were reports from neighbors -- they were concerned that these children weren`t supervised. And DFCS has told us that they actually offered these parents classes on parenting, classes on budgeting, classes on organizing their home, that they saw issues with all of this inside the household.

GRACE: Now, Ray, back to you, issues of organizing the home.

GIUDICE: Well, I mean, do you lock the doors at night? Do you have secure locks that children can`t reach? Do you have a dog for security? Are you in the bathroom for 15 or 20 minutes with the television on so loud that you can`t hear what`s going on?

Nancy, as you know, I`m a new stepfather. We have got a 7-year-old and a 4-year-old in our household. And you cannot turn your head for 15 or 20 minutes with a 2- and a 3-year-old when you know that there`s already a pattern that 3-year-old getting out that door and going out that house.

You know, the question that we need to ask is not why DFCS was coming out there every week. Why is has that been going on for two years without somebody doing something? Let`s bring this to a conclusion. Did they take these classes? What is going on?

GRACE: Very quickly, before we go to break, with me, WRDW-TV reporter Kristen Cosby.

Kristen, I understand it was a very heavily wooded area. How do a 2- year-old and a 3-year-old get all the way through this heavily wooded area, through a chain-link fence, and fling themselves into a pond?

COSBY: Well, that`s the concern of a lot of residents in the area. They`re certainly offering questions. There`s nothing been confirmed by investigators.

But they live surrounded by trees, and there`s a lot of different pathways in those woods. They would had have to take the exact pathway from the side of their house all the way down to that pond and then find an opening in that fence. So definitely something to investigate.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with the story.

But very quickly to "Trial Tracking": Day 12 in the search for the missing Pennsylvania prosecutor, Ray Gricar, still no leads. Police looked at Gricar`s medical records but found no evidence of physical or mental impairment. Police are ruling that out for now, foul play. Gricar disappeared nine months before he was set to retire. Tonight, his loved ones are begging for his return.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATTY FORNICOLA, GIRLFRIEND OF MISSING PROSECUTOR: Ray, I love you. I miss you. Lara loves you and Lara misses you. The entire family loves you and misses you. And if for some reason you are fearful to call home, there are others you can call to contact us to let us know you`re OK and you want help.

If there`s someone out there who knows where Ray is, please contact the police. We really want to bring ray home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: These are images that many of us will never forget, Michael Jackson at the top of his game, his arrest, and the daily parade into the courtroom. That courthouse is surrounded by, basically, worshippers. Many people actually think Jackson is deity, a god on Earth.

Let`s go straight out to the courthouse. Standing by in Santa Maria, California, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, it was a heck of a day in the courtroom. Bring me up-to-date.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": It was, indeed. As you know, Nancy, the prosecution says it`s going to wrap up its case by the end of this week. So they`re really trying to connect the dots and bring it all together.

To that end, they call to the stand Cynthia Montgomery. She was Michael Jackson`s -- formerly Michael Jackson`s travel agent. And she testified that one of Michael Jackson`s associates, one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, Mark Schaffel, ordered her to arrange for four one-way tickets to Brazil for the accuser, his brother, his sister, and his mother. That flight scheduled to leave March 1, 2003, smack dab in the middle of the alleged conspiracy.

She also made one other point for the prosecution. She said one of Michael Jackson`s regular flight attendants instructed her that Michael Jackson preferred to have his wine served in soda cans and to pass that along if she were ever not working on the flights to other flight attendants.

GRACE: Now, correct me if I`m wrong. Jane Velez-Mitchell, Montgomery, the travel agent, main purpose of testimony, one-way ticket for the mom and kids to Brazil. I guess they weren`t planning on a return back home to California.

But remember, her testimony at first had been ruled out by the judge because she was going to take the Fifth. In California, in the Ninth Circuit, that is, if taking the Fifth impairs the defense`s ability to cross-examine you, you can`t even take the stand. So suddenly, she turns up with an immunity agreement.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. She was granted immunity. And her lawyer really wanted that for her, because she was also the travel agent who booked the now-infamous extra jet flight from Las Vegas to Santa Barbara when Michael Jackson came back from Vegas to surrender.

And we all know by now that there was a hidden video camera on that secretly recording Jackson and his then-attorney. And there`s a lot of lawsuits over that.

GRACE: OK, we`re taking a quick break. With us at the courthouse, Jane Velez-Mitchell, and all the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, DEFENDANT: Parents have power over children. They feel they have to do what their parents say. But money is the root of all evil, as you know. The love of money is the root of all evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was from Jackson`s first public response to these child molestation charges.

Welcome back, everybody.

I want to go quickly to Ray Giudice.

Ray, I think we all know where the defense is headed on cross- examination with Debbie Rowe.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: Michael Jackson`s ex-wife, the mother of his two children.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: Before I tee you up for a question, take a listen to this. This is Debra Opri, Jackson`s parents` lawyer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S PARENTS: Well, forgive my candor, but this woman is nothing to me but a breeder. She was hired to carry Michael`s children, to bear them and to sell them to him. And that`s what she did.

GRACE: You said she was hired as a breeder. Hired by who?

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: I`m just giving a what-if. She carried his children. Complete that sentence. It`s obvious that he...

GRACE: Actually, you said she was hired to be a breeder. And my question to you is, who hired her?

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: No, come on, Nancy. I said she is nothing but a breeder to me. She was...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You said she was hired to be a breeder.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You`re saying that Michael Jackson paid her off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So, Ray, where are they going on cross?

GIUDICE: Well, Nancy, that`s where they`re going. They`re going to start -- Mesereau is going to come right after Ms. Rowe, show that she is a hired child maker. This woman sold her children. Can you imagine what kind of mother would sell their children?

GRACE: I have got a question for you.

GIUDICE: And give up parental rights?

GRACE: Who would buy children and ask the mom to give up parental rights?

GIUDICE: Well, listen, that may be morally wrong. But that doesn`t make it illegal. Jackson had a contract with her. He paid her. But she gave up her children.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Oh, are you saying that`s illegal?

GIUDICE: No. It`s not illegal. But that`s what kind of witness the state`s got. Look, she is make or break for the state.

GRACE: You know what? It`s the pot calling the kettle black, because, in this case, he didn`t do anything different than she did.

GIUDICE: Listen, if the state doesn`t hit a home run with Rowe, they have got major problems. You know it`s a cardinal principle of prosecution. You need to end your case with a powerful witness, a strong witness and tie everything together.

Mesereau is going to have a field day with her. And right out of the box, the state`s going to have to say, now, isn`t it true, Ms. Rowe, that you had these two children and you sold them back to Mr. Jackson?

GRACE: So, hold on. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, Ray. You have got a point.

But, Daniel Horowitz, if the defense brings that up on cross- examination with Debbie Rowe, you sold your kids, basically, you know what they`re doing. They`re opening up Pandora`s box, because she will say, you know what? I did because I was so afraid of all the whatever, pressure, the money, the hero worship of Michael Jackson. They made me do it.

I don`t know if she he`s going to trip up that way.

HOROWITZ: I don`t think so, Nancy.

I actually agree with you, Nancy Grace. What Mesereau should do is say, you`re a real mother and what you said on the videos about how Michael would never harm a child necessarily was true, because you trusted your children to him. And if he pulls that out of her, she has to say, yes. Otherwise, she`s not only selling the children to Michael Jackson, which has some sense of surrogacy to it, which is not the worst thing, but to a molester?

She has to give Mesereau what he needs. He`s not a molester. And then he gets a lot out of her.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. There`s always the argument that she handed the kids over earlier before she was aware of any problems within the home and that is when she filed for sole custody.

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBBIE ROWE, EX-WIFE OF JACKSON: He would never hurt a child. Never. It`s not in him. It`s -- no way. He would never do anything inappropriate with a child. It`s the furthest thing from his mind. When those allegations came, `93 I think it was, he was devastated. I mean, talk about going for the jugular.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Doctor Jeff Gardere, that`s some serious mood music going on in the back of that thing.

(LAUGHTER)

GARDERE: Check that out.

GRACE: It got me in the mood, Dr. Jeff Gardere, to think that the whole thing was a setup. Thoughts?

GARDERE: Very, very dramatic. As we know with the media, when we play that music, it enhances...

GRACE: Fireplace.

GARDERE: Exactly. Enhances the emotion.

GRACE: The lighting.

GARDERE: Well, that`s part of what was going on.

But I`ll tell you one thing. The prosecution can go with Debbie Rowe and say, hey, listen. Maybe you weren`t such a great mom, but you were enough of a good mom that you wanted more face time with your children and was this the reason that you made this three-hour video, because you were promised that you would have more visitation time on the rights? She wanted to maintain her rights with those children.

GRACE: Good point.

What about it, Jane Velez-Mitchell?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, the prosecution, Nancy, has maintained that the rebuttal video that Debbie Rowe did was highly scripted.

There`s a big problem with that contention. Hamid Moslehi, Michael Jackson`s videographer who shot that video, took the stand today and he didn`t confirm that Debbie Rowe`s interview was highly scripted and he didn`t confirm that the accuser`s mother -- he also shot that video -- was highly scripted.

The problem is that the prosecution sticks to this highly scripted. It`s a three-hour video. You would have to be Meryl Streep to memorize three hours of a script.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Wait a minute.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it just doesn`t make sense.

GRACE: For you and I to hear the words highly scripted means everything you`re saying is a script. To a non-TV person, highly scripted has a completely different meaning.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I agree with you, but I think the prosecution needs to clarify that language.

GRACE: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: When they say it was scripted, that means scripted. If they`re saying that she had to hit some bullet points, that`s a different thing. They need to clarify that for the jury.

GRACE: OK.

Jane Velez, let`s back to the basics. The witnesses on the stand today were Cynthia Montgomery, the travel agent who booked the one-way ticket for the family to Brazil. And what is the other guy`s name?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hamid Moslehi, the videographer for Michael who shot Debbie Rowe in the rebuttal and the accuser and his family in their rebuttal tape. That rebuttal tape never made air. Debbie Rowe`s did.

And he did say things that dovetailed with the prosecution`s theory. He said the accuser`s mother wasn`t happy at first about making this rebuttal video. She kind of fought it. She finally went there and did it. But even then, she was fighting over signing the consent form. So there were things that he said that buttressed the prosecution case.

But he didn`t nail down this whole scripted thing, which is what supposedly Debbie Rowe is going to be limited to testifying about. The judge says, even though she could say a number of things -- she`s known Michael Jackson for decades -- they`re going to try to limit it to that one issue.

GRACE: Well, the other thing, Ray, a common misperception is, it`s not the witness who invokes the privilege. It won`t be Debbie Rowe that jumps up and says, I can`t answer that, husband-wife marital privilege.

Jackson will invoke it in front of the jury if the state or the -- well, just the state goes into any area that they don`t want to hear about.

GIUDICE: Well, that`s right. And it puts Jackson in a very precarious position. Mesereau is going to have to invoke that privilege only in a dire circumstance.

I did want to go back to a point that was just made, however. Keep in mind that this rebuttal tape was not made at the Neverland Ranch. It was made at the videographer`s home with -- I think it was only one Jackson confidante there. He negotiated over the phone with the accuser`s mother who, according to Hamid, apparently became happy and satisfied with the resolution of whatever issue and debate they had and agreed to go ahead and make the rebuttal tape.

So, I think the fact that it`s not at Neverland, it`s a safe place, if she needed to outcry for help, she had that opportunity there to do so. So, I think that really puts a dagger in the conspiracy theory.

GRACE: Well, what about it, Daniel Horowitz? The way I see it, the conspiracy theory goes more toward keeping the family on Neverland. That`s the allegation. I think, with Debbie Rowe, though, where do you think it fits in, Daniel?

HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, to me, this entire conspiracy theory is based on the sense that you can control a mother and these children by a variety of means, with the ultimate one being ferreting them out of country to Brazil.

It doesn`t hold water to me. Brazil, for example, is a very large country. You are giving up control of the mother once you put her in a major civilized country basically on her own. And this whole business about keeping her a prisoner in Neverland, when she has access, again, to cell phones and her boyfriend does not make sense.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, wait, wait.

False imprisonment goes toward keeping someone out, as well as keeping someone in. If I lock you out of your house, that is restricting your movement.

HOROWITZ: True.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And if I lock you in your house, so that`s a -- sending them to Brazil, hello, and a one-way ticket. How are they going to get back? They`re broke.

HOROWITZ: Nancy, how are they going to get back?

GRACE: Hitchhike?

HOROWITZ: Once you`re in Brazil, you call up "The National Enquirer" or you call Nancy grace and say, help. Get me out of Brazil.

GRACE: You know...

HOROWITZ: Nancy, you would fly her back.

GRACE: No. I got you right there. Sending them to Brazil -- Ray, am I right or wrong?

GIUDICE: Well...

GRACE: Sending them to Brazil, one-way ticket, is just as much of a false imprisonment under the law.

GIUDICE: It is. It is.

I think the point is well-made, though. Again, it would allow the accuser`s mother -- if she needed help, she is not out in the Outback.

GRACE: Yes.

GIUDICE: She`s in Brazil. She could get assistance. She could go to the American Consulate and get help.

I don`t necessarily think that that bolsters the conspiracy theory. And again, keep in mind, the messenger, this travel agent, I mean, how much immunity -- they`re going to run out of immunity to give to these witnesses by the state.

GRACE: Well, you know what? I`m not sure.

But, Jane Velez-Mitchell, has there been immunity deals with anybody else?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, certainly, there was another witness who was able to take the Fifth. And then Chris Carter...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Immunity deals. Was there an immunity deal?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. I haven`t heard of those, no.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: All right, Ray, I`ll give you a chance to step back and punt when we get back.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I can`t go into a park. I can`t go to Disneyland as myself. I can`t go out and walk down the street. There`s crowds and bumper-to- bumper cars. And so I create my world behind my gates. Everything that I love is behind those gates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is from Jackson`s first public response to the current child molestation charges.

Welcome back.

Out to Daniel Horowitz.

Daniel Horowitz, we know Debbie Rowe testifying tomorrow. Do you think that will be the last state`s witness?

HOROWITZ: Nancy, I think so. It seems like that`s the big wrap-up. It makes sense for Sneddon to try to end on a high note.

Just because I think it is not a high note for him doesn`t mean that he sees it the same way. This is somebody close to Michael who essentially was intimate with him, we think. So that could be a big bang for the buck if she really nails him. However...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Intimate with him? Don`t go there, Daniel. You`re opening up a can of worms on that one.

HOROWITZ: I know. But, you know, Nancy, that`s an interesting issue. Did he have any attraction to her as an adult woman? That`s going to be an issue on the minds of these jurors. And we`ll see where it goes tomorrow. Maybe Sneddon knows something that we don`t quite know, but we`re thinking.

GRACE: Hey, Jane Velez-Mitchell, question to you. I`m guessing that that would be off-limits for cross-examine?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s such an interesting question because the defense threatened to play the entire three-hour rebuttal interview that Debbie Rowe did. And she covers a whole wide range of subjects, why she gave her children to Michael as a gift, on and on.

Michael Jackson, in that same documentary that aired on FOX, said they conceived of their children in the old fashioned way. So, if that rebuttal interview is played, it really opens a door for a lot of stuff to come in. And where does it end? I mean, she knows so much about Michael Jackson. She goes back so many years. She was his nurse for his dermatologist years before they got married. So, it really is going to be interesting how the judge limits this testimony.

GRACE: Right.

What do you make of it, Dr. Gardere, her marriage to Jackson and then the immediate dissolution of the marriage once the children were born?

GARDERE: Well, I think we heard it directly from the -- Jacksons` parents` attorney, where many people believe that she was hired in order to have those children for on and, for two, to play this role, as perhaps Lisa Marie Presley did, of him being this very viral heterosexual individual. So it certainly can play in a very fascinating way with Debbie Rowe`s testimony.

GRACE: And what about the jury?

GARDERE: I think the jury certainly sees that she`s got some baggage. They`re not quite sure of what kind of mom she is, whether she was in some ways hired or whether she is someone who really does care about her children and has been enamored by the Michael Jackson charisma.

GRACE: But, Daniel Horowitz, have you ever had a witness, a single witness, that didn`t have baggage? That goes without saying. Of course there`s going to be something for cross-examination.

HOROWITZ: Really, I don`t see her having that much baggage, Nancy. I see her as a surrogate mother, not so much as somebody that sold her children. It`s a little bit different.

She`s just an odd person in a very odd world of Michael Jackson. There`s nobody normal close to Michael Jackson. So, in that universe, she is actually fairly straightforward.

GRACE: Let`s go, Ray Giudice, to issue of Brian Oxman.

Hey, Elizabeth (ph), do we have that footage of Oxman and lead attorney Mesereau? Oh, not it. There`s Michael Jackson giving Oxman a big hug, followed by hugs from Jackson`s family.

Ray, he got fired about an hour later. Then there was a blast-out out in the parking lot after, Oxman and Mesereau. What do make of it, Ray?

GIUDICE: Well, Nancy, we`re coming down to crunch time. Mesereau doesn`t need any distractions. He`s in charge of this ship. He`s the captain of the ship. And there might have been some problems from this other attorney, who have may been trying to ingrate himself into the case or may have been reflecting some concerns about the family members.

But I totally agree...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Uh-oh. Somebody is in trouble.

GIUDICE: Well, that may be, but...

GRACE: Take a look at that. And another thing, Oxman.

(CROSSTALK)

GIUDICE: I agree with Mesereau. There`s no time to play around. If this guy has been a problem or is any distraction, you cut him loose.

GRACE: Hey, Ray.

GIUDICE: Yes.

GRACE: When you don`t know a horse. Look at his track record.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: Remember somebody named Benjamin Brafman?

GIUDICE: That`s right.

GRACE: The tough-talking, street-fighting New York lawyer that went out there to take control of this case? Jackson fired him. Remember Mark Geragos, the lawyer that oozes charm? He got the boot, too. Now Oxman.

(CROSSTALK)

GIUDICE: Well, I don`t think that`s a similar reaction. I think this is clearly a Mesereau decision. He`s coming down to the final work on this case. And he wants total control. He doesn`t want any distractions. I don`t think it`s any more complicated than that, Nancy.

GRACE: All right.

Let`s go to the source.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, agree or disagree?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I can tell you, I have heard a lot of rumors and speculation about what was really going on.

I think I agree. Mesereau has to be in charge. Everybody acknowledges that he`s done a brilliant job thus far and it`s really his right to call who his team is going to be. There`s been some speculation that perhaps Brian was really trying hard to help, but without Mesereau`s approval in terms of how he was trying to help and Mesereau wasn`t too happy about perhaps working overtime.

GRACE: Jane, wasn`t there an Oxman cell phone call in the lobby of the courthouse or just outside the courthouse that was picked up by a reporter and it reflected badly on the case?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes. There was that, too. Apparently, there were some arguments over even ego things, like who`s going to stay where, at what hotel.

GRACE: Oh, good lord. There you go.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what we hear.

GRACE: You know...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey, people are people. You can`t get past it. There`s a lot of egos involved here. There`s a lot of tension. There`s a lot of ego.

GRACE: And, Jane, Jane, it takes so much to make a lawyer look bad. You know, we have kind of got a bad reputation.

Everybody, we are going to a very quick break. We`ll be back shortly.

But to tonight`s all-points bulletin. The FBI and law enforcement around the country looking for this man, Alejandro Santana, wanted for the shooting death of an used car salesman during a test drive in Sacramento, California, August 2000. Santana, 24 years old, 5`8``, 200 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes, considered armed and dangerous. If you have any information on Alejandro Santana, call the FBI at 202-324-3000.

Local news coming up for some of you. But we`ll be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson child sex trial tomorrow 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: As you know, we here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Tonight, take a look at Latricia Fipps. She`s a mother from Tulsa, Oklahoma. On November 20, 2002, she never came home from work. If you have any information on this woman, Latricia Fipps, please call the Carole Sund/Carrington Foundation toll free, 888-813-8389. A reward could be involved for any information relating to this mother, Latricia Fipps.

Welcome back, everybody.

Very quickly, Daniel Horowitz, we have only got a few moments left. What`s the worst they can throw at Debbie Rowe?

HOROWITZ: The financial motive, Nancy. Michael`s a sinking ship and that is when she finally says, I want the children. I bet these kids have big trust accounts. As Michael goes under financially, she gets the kids and the money. That`s what they will throw at her.

GRACE: Ray, what is the worst thing? They`ve got to have more than money to throw at her.

GIUDICE: Mesereau is going to take that tape that we saw earlier and make her repeat those statements, that Michael would never, ever harm a child. And he`s going to repeat it as many times as that judge will let him do it.

GRACE: Yes. Good point.

Dr. Jeff Gardere, what about it?

GARDERE: She gave up custody of her children at the beginning. She let Michael be the father and only parent. And they will look at a mom allowing that to happen in her life.

There are prejudices in that way.

GRACE: I think he is right about that, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Women are held to a different standard. If she`s perceived as being a bad girl, not following the rules, or, God forbid, a bad mother, she is up the creek without a paddle. Bye-bye.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely.

There`s a lot of emotion under-riding all of this. You`re talking about motherhood. You`re talking about children. And all these people come in with such baggage. You have to wonder what the jurors are thinking about all of these mothers. And are they going to blame them for everything that`s happened?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Oh, man. Don`t you know, Jane, this jury goes home every night and takes an aspirin and an Alka-Seltzer and goes to bed. Whew.

OK, I want to thank all of my guests tonight. What a panel.

But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us again tonight, inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up next, headlines from all around the world.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I hope to see you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And, until tomorrow night, good night, friend.

END


Aired April 26, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, we need your help again. An Amber Alert over the airwaves for a 12-year-old Florida girl last seen with a man in a red van.
And Michael Jackson`s ex-wife, Debbie Rowe, is on a collision course with the witness stand and is threatening to rip the Jackson defense wide open.

And more questions tonight after two toddlers found dead in a Georgia pond.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

As the state`s case comes to an end, the evidence ratchets up for the prosecution. Jackson`s ex-wife, the mother of two of his children, set to appear under oath for the state against Michael Jackson.

And 2-year-old Nicole, 3-year-old Jonah Payne touched a nation when the toddlers went missing. Their bodies found in a nearby pond. What happened to Nicole and her brother, Jonah? We are looking for answers.

And help us tonight. An Amber Alert out of Bradenton, Florida, for a missing 12-year-old girl last seen with a man in a red van. There still may be time to save this girl.

Tonight, in Atlanta, defense attorney Ray Giudice; in San Francisco, defense attorney Daniel Horowitz; in New York, psychologist Dr. Jeff Gardere; and with us by phone from Bradenton, Florida, Police Major William Tokajer; and from Sarasota, Clear Channel radio news reporter, Ryan Rafferdy.

First, to Ryan Rafferdy. Bring us up-to-date, friend.

RYAN RAFFERDY, CLEAR CHANNEL RADIO NEWS: Yes. Well, we have, as you said at the top of the show, we have an Amber Alert. The search team has been activated out of Sarasota County. That means the child abduction response team has been activated for 12-year-old Margarita Lopez.

She`s a Hispanic white female, 4`10", 65 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. She was last seen wearing a white shirt and blue pants. She was last seen at a hotel here in the Bradenton area last night, Nancy.

GRACE: My question to you is, what can you tell me about her disappearance?

RAFFERDY: What we can tell her you about her disappearance is that she was last actually seen in the Ruskin area, which is the county just north of Manatee County, where she was reported missing. And she was reported missing from the Bradenton Motel by her brothers early this morning. Prior to that, she was last seen around 7:30 last night.

Now, apparently, she was in the room with a 3- and 4-year-old and with the suspect, 26-year-old Antonio Paulino-Perez. Now, both of these brothers went to the store, the brothers of the missing girl. They came back and the girl and the suspect were gone, but the 3- and the 4-year-old were there at the time.

GRACE: I`ve got a question for you, Ryan. What were these kids doing living in a motel? Were they in school? What was happening to them during the day?

RAFFERDY: According to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, they are migrant workers. The family is migrant workers from Mexico. So that`s why they are here. No word why they`re staying in a motel, though.

GRACE: Let`s go to Major William Tokajer with the Bradenton Police Department.

Major, what can you tell us tonight about the little girl?

WILLIAM TOKAJER, MAJOR, BRADENTON POLICE DEPARTMENT: We are still actively looking for her. We do have an Amber Alert out. We still believe that she is with Antonio Paulino-Perez. Last that they were seen was about 11 o`clock last night at a migrant farm in Ruskin. And they`re said to be in a red Aerostar-style van.

GRACE: Do police have any type of a tag license number for the car?

TOKAJER: No. The car was just recently purchased by Mr. Perez at a flea market in Palmetto. So we don`t even believe it`s actually properly registered yet.

GRACE: So this would be an Aerostar-looking red van without a proper tag on the back? Maybe just sold or what?

TOKAJER: It could have a Florida tag. We`re not really sure what type of tag it has, if any.

GRACE: What I don`t understand, Major, is why the brothers did not report their little sister missing last night.

TOKAJER: I wish that we could actually answer that. The only answer we have is that we believe that both the brothers had been drinking and that clouded their vision, as well as the fact that there is the cultural difference with them being from Mexico, not being here legally, and not wanting to actually interact with the police very much.

GRACE: Let me talk to Ray Giudice about that. Ray, we know the problems that befall illegal immigrants. They`re afraid to go to police about anything. They`re afraid they`ll be deported.

And here, the one paying the price is little girl. What could happen to the brothers now? I think I have got Ray Giudice with me. Ray?

OK. Don`t have Ray. Let`s go to Daniel Horowitz.

Daniel, what could happen to the brothers now?

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I mean, first of all, they could be accessories after the fact by hiding her disappearance. But more than that, let`s look at the immigration issue.

Let me tell the police chief and the governor of Florida, put out on the airwaves, if you come forward with information, you will not be deported or prosecuted for being here illegally. This little girl`s life is far more important than immigration issues. And that`s what we`re facing right now with this case.

GRACE: Let me go back to Ray. Ray, can you hear me? No. No, Ray Giudice. All right.

Let me go quickly back to Ryan Rafferdy, Clear Channel radio reporter. Ryan, I understand that this is a red Aerostar-looking van. What was the area in which the little girl was last seen?

RAFFERDY: The area in which she was last seen was Ruskin, Florida, where Sarah Lunde, who was just found murdered a couple of weeks ago, was found and where she was from. The guy, the suspect in this case, apparently lives in Ruskin, Florida. And that`s where they were last spotted.

GRACE: Ryan, could you give me Margarita`s description one more time?

RAFFERDY: Sure. She is 4`10" inches tall. She`s a light Hispanic female, 65 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. She was last seen wearing a white t-shirt and blue pants.

GRACE: You know, what`s interesting here, Dr. Jeff Gardere, children are brought up to go along with whoever is in charge of them.

DR. JEFF GARDERE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: That`s right.

GRACE: And I guarantee you this guy was an acquaintance of the brothers. There are no parents around.

And Elizabeth, if you could keep showing the little girl`s picture, please.

Everybody, take a look at Margarita Aguilar-Lopez. This little girl is missing. She is an illegal immigrant. She was here with her brothers and other family members. Her parents are not here. She is missing out of the Bradenton, Florida, area, last seen with a man in a red Aerostar- looking van. Take a look, please.

Back to you.

GARDERE: Yes.

GRACE: Children will go along willingly with adults. Why?

GARDERE: Well, because that is who may be providing direction. And Nancy, you are right on. This may have been a makeshift family, since the parents of this girl may not have been with them, or was not with them from what we know.

And therefore, the brothers may have thought, hey, look, we can leave her for a little while, while we go out to get whatever we`re getting. But when you mix the alcohol, when you have the lack of boundaries between this makeshift family, that`s a recipe for disaster.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel kind of stranded. Hey, right next door to me, things are happening. And that`s really bad.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s too close to home. This is the third one in a couple of weeks. It`s awful. My daughter plays with her all the time. It could have been her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Another issue I have, Dr. Jeff Gardere, is, there had to be people living in that motel. It looked like a motel where you would rent by the week or the month.

GARDERE: That`s right.

GRACE: They had to know these children were there without parents.

GARDERE: Yes.

GRACE: That they were not in school. I mean, the kids come out and play all day long. They know they`re not in school. So why does everybody stand back and do nothing?

GARDERE: I think, Nancy, a lot of people really feel that it`s not their business. As long as everything is going OK, there`s no real trouble or noise coming out of that particular room, that it`s OK. But we do know that there are issues of the alcohol and may have been some issues with violence having to do with the brothers.

GRACE: But you know what? I disagree with you. Just because the brothers may have alcohol issues, that doesn`t mean all the neighbors can`t see the kids are home all day long, not in school, not where they`re supposed to be, totally unsupervised. And now this little girl is paying the price. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOKAJER: The suspect was in the house. He was a friend of the family that was over there, a 24-year-old male. And he left with the girl when her two brothers went to the store.

He took the girl and we have not been able to find her. We haven`t heard from him. We don`t know where he is, except for that he`s possibly left the state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Before we have to go to break, I want to go back to Clear Channel radio news reporter out of Sarasota, Ryan Rafferdy.

Ryan, any idea where the parents are exactly? Have they been contacted?

RAFFERDY: That`s hard to tell at this point. The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is working a number of angles with other authorities, including the Mexican police.

And I`d just like to add, Nancy, that state`s law enforcement and states from here to Mexico are being put on alert by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement because, at this point, they are hearing that this guy is heading back to Mexico.

GRACE: OK. Take a look, everybody. Margarita Aguilar-Lopez. We`re flashing a number at the bottom of the screen for you if you have any information. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL LOWE, WARRENTON COUNTY CORONER: As we suspected, we have gotten our results back from the regional crime lab. At this time, Dr. Brown (ph) has ruled the preliminary cause of death is drowning, as we expected. And an investigation will be ongoing. We`ll be looking at some other avenues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Not only the disappearance but the discovery of a little boy and girl, ages two and three, in Georgia have touched a nation. And tonight, still more questions hanging in the air.

Tonight, in Warrenton, Georgia, "Warrenton Clipper" reporter, Karl Haywood; in Minneapolis, coroner and author of "Forever Ours," Dr. Janis Amatuzio; but first, to Augusta, Georgia, WRDW reporter Kristen Cosby joining us.

Kristen, bring me up-to-date, friend.

KRISTEN COSBY, WRDW REPORTER: Well, Nancy, the latest on this case is that the -- first of all, these children were missing Saturday night. They went missing a little before 6 o`clock. Police and the investigators searched for them Saturday night. They searched for them all day Sunday.

Then they went to retrace their steps on Monday and they found them about 12:15. They had fallen into a sewage pond. And they drowned inside of that pond. The mother says she went to the bathroom for five minutes and her children wandered out of the house, unlocked the door, and that`s how they got there. But we have just learned that...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Interesting, Kristen. Last night, the father came on the show and stated the mom was in the bathroom for 15 minutes.

COSBY: That is interesting. They told us five minutes. So there might be a little discrepancy.

GRACE: Yes.

COSBY: But investigators said the mom told them less than five minutes.

GRACE: Where does this stand...

COSBY: But one thing...

GRACE: Go ahead, dear.

COSBY: Go ahead.

I was just going to say, one thing that we just learned about the family just a few minutes ago is that the Department of Family and Children Services has been visiting that family since 2003. They made weekly visits there. And their last visit there on April 20th. And the reason they made those visits is because of lack of supervision. So that`s kind of an interesting point.

GRACE: Well, it`s highly interesting. And in light of the fact that the father told me last night the neighbors had found the children outside before, that the little girl, who was actually the younger of the two, I believe, had learned to get out of the house. And if, you know, she got out of your eyesight, they were out of there.

Let me quickly go to Karl Haywood with the "Warrenton Clipper." For sure, Karl, are the autopsy reports in? And is this final?

KARL HAYWOOD, "WARRENTON CLIPPER": As far as we know, what we heard from Paul Lowe, the coroner, the autopsy results were final, and they determined that the children drowned. There was algae and water in their lungs and their stomach.

GRACE: There was algae in the lungs?

HAYWOOD: That`s what we understand.

GRACE: No. That`s a very interesting point, Dr. Janis Amatuzio, because one of the first things I believe the coroner or the medical examiner would do was test the water in the lungs to see if it was pond water with algae in it or bath water, tap water, clear water. What do you think?

DR. JANIS AMATUZIO, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I don`t think that a coroner or medical examiner might necessarily test the water.

Drowning has a specific type of signature. And basically, understand that, when we do death investigation, we don`t just draw our conclusions from the autopsy. We have to take into account the death scene investigation and the circumstances.

And remember, an autopsy can give you a cause of death, but an entire death investigation is going to give you the manner of death. And that may be, as it sounds in this case, accidental. But I also heard investigators saying that they were still leaving the investigation open to see if there was anything else they needed yet to figure out.

GRACE: Doctor, I think you are correct.

Elizabeth, if you could put the statement up from the coroner. Dr. Amatuzio is actually correct. The statement from the coroner is, "Autopsies were completed today. Preliminary findings indicate drowning cause of death. Investigation ongoing. GBI, Georgia Bureau of Investigations, will be releasing a statement in the next few days on the manner" -- that`s the manner of death. "There are no visible signs of trauma. Death appears accidental."

Doctor, what do you make of it?

AMATUZIO: That sounds to me like they`re doing an absolutely excellent job in this investigation. Understand the most important tool in any death investigation is an open mind. It`s so important that we stick to making observations and wait until all of the facts are in before we draw to a conclusion as to what really happened.

GRACE: Yes.

AMATUZIO: You know, we are really there, as our coroners and medical examiners, and with the whole death investigation team, to say what happened. And so it sounds to me like they`re doing a really excellent job here.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, doctor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LOWE: There`s still no evidence of foul play. And we are going to turn our investigation back over to the GBI. And they`ll be concluding, maybe later this afternoon. But right now, there`s no evidence of foul play. And the cause of death is drowning of the toddlers in Warrenton.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Ray Giudice out of the Atlanta CNN center.

Ray, you and I have both dealt with the Georgia medical examiners and local coroners. I don`t see how they can get a full autopsy report as of tonight. I think Dr. Amatuzio is correct.

You can`t just look at the bodies of the children and say, "We don`t see manual strangulation. We don`t see ligature strangulation. We don`t see bruises on the body." The tissue in the body, the lungs, the water in the lungs, their blood, it all has to be tested.

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s right, Nancy. They have got to start from this crime scene from the house all the way to the pond and back again. They have got to look at the fence. They have got to look at the area where these kids may have climbed under. And they have got to continue to examine the parents.

I understand there`s been some preliminary decisions about the parents, but they have got to continue to push on that. Both of these terrible stories show a consistent pattern of our failure as a society to protect little kids and children, both as neighbors, and friends, and parents.

GRACE: Now, hold on. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. DFCS, Department of Family and Children Services, Ray, according to the reporter, Kristen Cosby, had been out there -- Kristen, did you say on a weekly basis? Did I hear correctly?

Because normally, when you read a story in the paper, it`s because DFCS didn`t go and the children end up dead. In this case, they were going weekly?

COSBY: That`s correct. Weekly since 2003.

GRACE: And what prompted DFCS going weekly since 2003? I`m stunned.

COSBY: There were reports from neighbors -- they were concerned that these children weren`t supervised. And DFCS has told us that they actually offered these parents classes on parenting, classes on budgeting, classes on organizing their home, that they saw issues with all of this inside the household.

GRACE: Now, Ray, back to you, issues of organizing the home.

GIUDICE: Well, I mean, do you lock the doors at night? Do you have secure locks that children can`t reach? Do you have a dog for security? Are you in the bathroom for 15 or 20 minutes with the television on so loud that you can`t hear what`s going on?

Nancy, as you know, I`m a new stepfather. We have got a 7-year-old and a 4-year-old in our household. And you cannot turn your head for 15 or 20 minutes with a 2- and a 3-year-old when you know that there`s already a pattern that 3-year-old getting out that door and going out that house.

You know, the question that we need to ask is not why DFCS was coming out there every week. Why is has that been going on for two years without somebody doing something? Let`s bring this to a conclusion. Did they take these classes? What is going on?

GRACE: Very quickly, before we go to break, with me, WRDW-TV reporter Kristen Cosby.

Kristen, I understand it was a very heavily wooded area. How do a 2- year-old and a 3-year-old get all the way through this heavily wooded area, through a chain-link fence, and fling themselves into a pond?

COSBY: Well, that`s the concern of a lot of residents in the area. They`re certainly offering questions. There`s nothing been confirmed by investigators.

But they live surrounded by trees, and there`s a lot of different pathways in those woods. They would had have to take the exact pathway from the side of their house all the way down to that pond and then find an opening in that fence. So definitely something to investigate.

GRACE: We`ll be right back with the story.

But very quickly to "Trial Tracking": Day 12 in the search for the missing Pennsylvania prosecutor, Ray Gricar, still no leads. Police looked at Gricar`s medical records but found no evidence of physical or mental impairment. Police are ruling that out for now, foul play. Gricar disappeared nine months before he was set to retire. Tonight, his loved ones are begging for his return.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PATTY FORNICOLA, GIRLFRIEND OF MISSING PROSECUTOR: Ray, I love you. I miss you. Lara loves you and Lara misses you. The entire family loves you and misses you. And if for some reason you are fearful to call home, there are others you can call to contact us to let us know you`re OK and you want help.

If there`s someone out there who knows where Ray is, please contact the police. We really want to bring ray home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: These are images that many of us will never forget, Michael Jackson at the top of his game, his arrest, and the daily parade into the courtroom. That courthouse is surrounded by, basically, worshippers. Many people actually think Jackson is deity, a god on Earth.

Let`s go straight out to the courthouse. Standing by in Santa Maria, California, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, it was a heck of a day in the courtroom. Bring me up-to-date.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": It was, indeed. As you know, Nancy, the prosecution says it`s going to wrap up its case by the end of this week. So they`re really trying to connect the dots and bring it all together.

To that end, they call to the stand Cynthia Montgomery. She was Michael Jackson`s -- formerly Michael Jackson`s travel agent. And she testified that one of Michael Jackson`s associates, one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, Mark Schaffel, ordered her to arrange for four one-way tickets to Brazil for the accuser, his brother, his sister, and his mother. That flight scheduled to leave March 1, 2003, smack dab in the middle of the alleged conspiracy.

She also made one other point for the prosecution. She said one of Michael Jackson`s regular flight attendants instructed her that Michael Jackson preferred to have his wine served in soda cans and to pass that along if she were ever not working on the flights to other flight attendants.

GRACE: Now, correct me if I`m wrong. Jane Velez-Mitchell, Montgomery, the travel agent, main purpose of testimony, one-way ticket for the mom and kids to Brazil. I guess they weren`t planning on a return back home to California.

But remember, her testimony at first had been ruled out by the judge because she was going to take the Fifth. In California, in the Ninth Circuit, that is, if taking the Fifth impairs the defense`s ability to cross-examine you, you can`t even take the stand. So suddenly, she turns up with an immunity agreement.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. She was granted immunity. And her lawyer really wanted that for her, because she was also the travel agent who booked the now-infamous extra jet flight from Las Vegas to Santa Barbara when Michael Jackson came back from Vegas to surrender.

And we all know by now that there was a hidden video camera on that secretly recording Jackson and his then-attorney. And there`s a lot of lawsuits over that.

GRACE: OK, we`re taking a quick break. With us at the courthouse, Jane Velez-Mitchell, and all the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, DEFENDANT: Parents have power over children. They feel they have to do what their parents say. But money is the root of all evil, as you know. The love of money is the root of all evil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was from Jackson`s first public response to these child molestation charges.

Welcome back, everybody.

I want to go quickly to Ray Giudice.

Ray, I think we all know where the defense is headed on cross- examination with Debbie Rowe.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: Michael Jackson`s ex-wife, the mother of his two children.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: Before I tee you up for a question, take a listen to this. This is Debra Opri, Jackson`s parents` lawyer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S PARENTS: Well, forgive my candor, but this woman is nothing to me but a breeder. She was hired to carry Michael`s children, to bear them and to sell them to him. And that`s what she did.

GRACE: You said she was hired as a breeder. Hired by who?

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: I`m just giving a what-if. She carried his children. Complete that sentence. It`s obvious that he...

GRACE: Actually, you said she was hired to be a breeder. And my question to you is, who hired her?

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: No, come on, Nancy. I said she is nothing but a breeder to me. She was...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You said she was hired to be a breeder.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You`re saying that Michael Jackson paid her off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: So, Ray, where are they going on cross?

GIUDICE: Well, Nancy, that`s where they`re going. They`re going to start -- Mesereau is going to come right after Ms. Rowe, show that she is a hired child maker. This woman sold her children. Can you imagine what kind of mother would sell their children?

GRACE: I have got a question for you.

GIUDICE: And give up parental rights?

GRACE: Who would buy children and ask the mom to give up parental rights?

GIUDICE: Well, listen, that may be morally wrong. But that doesn`t make it illegal. Jackson had a contract with her. He paid her. But she gave up her children.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Oh, are you saying that`s illegal?

GIUDICE: No. It`s not illegal. But that`s what kind of witness the state`s got. Look, she is make or break for the state.

GRACE: You know what? It`s the pot calling the kettle black, because, in this case, he didn`t do anything different than she did.

GIUDICE: Listen, if the state doesn`t hit a home run with Rowe, they have got major problems. You know it`s a cardinal principle of prosecution. You need to end your case with a powerful witness, a strong witness and tie everything together.

Mesereau is going to have a field day with her. And right out of the box, the state`s going to have to say, now, isn`t it true, Ms. Rowe, that you had these two children and you sold them back to Mr. Jackson?

GRACE: So, hold on. Wait a minute. Wait a minute, Ray. You have got a point.

But, Daniel Horowitz, if the defense brings that up on cross- examination with Debbie Rowe, you sold your kids, basically, you know what they`re doing. They`re opening up Pandora`s box, because she will say, you know what? I did because I was so afraid of all the whatever, pressure, the money, the hero worship of Michael Jackson. They made me do it.

I don`t know if she he`s going to trip up that way.

HOROWITZ: I don`t think so, Nancy.

I actually agree with you, Nancy Grace. What Mesereau should do is say, you`re a real mother and what you said on the videos about how Michael would never harm a child necessarily was true, because you trusted your children to him. And if he pulls that out of her, she has to say, yes. Otherwise, she`s not only selling the children to Michael Jackson, which has some sense of surrogacy to it, which is not the worst thing, but to a molester?

She has to give Mesereau what he needs. He`s not a molester. And then he gets a lot out of her.

GRACE: Well, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. There`s always the argument that she handed the kids over earlier before she was aware of any problems within the home and that is when she filed for sole custody.

Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBBIE ROWE, EX-WIFE OF JACKSON: He would never hurt a child. Never. It`s not in him. It`s -- no way. He would never do anything inappropriate with a child. It`s the furthest thing from his mind. When those allegations came, `93 I think it was, he was devastated. I mean, talk about going for the jugular.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Doctor Jeff Gardere, that`s some serious mood music going on in the back of that thing.

(LAUGHTER)

GARDERE: Check that out.

GRACE: It got me in the mood, Dr. Jeff Gardere, to think that the whole thing was a setup. Thoughts?

GARDERE: Very, very dramatic. As we know with the media, when we play that music, it enhances...

GRACE: Fireplace.

GARDERE: Exactly. Enhances the emotion.

GRACE: The lighting.

GARDERE: Well, that`s part of what was going on.

But I`ll tell you one thing. The prosecution can go with Debbie Rowe and say, hey, listen. Maybe you weren`t such a great mom, but you were enough of a good mom that you wanted more face time with your children and was this the reason that you made this three-hour video, because you were promised that you would have more visitation time on the rights? She wanted to maintain her rights with those children.

GRACE: Good point.

What about it, Jane Velez-Mitchell?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, the prosecution, Nancy, has maintained that the rebuttal video that Debbie Rowe did was highly scripted.

There`s a big problem with that contention. Hamid Moslehi, Michael Jackson`s videographer who shot that video, took the stand today and he didn`t confirm that Debbie Rowe`s interview was highly scripted and he didn`t confirm that the accuser`s mother -- he also shot that video -- was highly scripted.

The problem is that the prosecution sticks to this highly scripted. It`s a three-hour video. You would have to be Meryl Streep to memorize three hours of a script.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Wait a minute.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it just doesn`t make sense.

GRACE: For you and I to hear the words highly scripted means everything you`re saying is a script. To a non-TV person, highly scripted has a completely different meaning.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I agree with you, but I think the prosecution needs to clarify that language.

GRACE: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: When they say it was scripted, that means scripted. If they`re saying that she had to hit some bullet points, that`s a different thing. They need to clarify that for the jury.

GRACE: OK.

Jane Velez, let`s back to the basics. The witnesses on the stand today were Cynthia Montgomery, the travel agent who booked the one-way ticket for the family to Brazil. And what is the other guy`s name?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hamid Moslehi, the videographer for Michael who shot Debbie Rowe in the rebuttal and the accuser and his family in their rebuttal tape. That rebuttal tape never made air. Debbie Rowe`s did.

And he did say things that dovetailed with the prosecution`s theory. He said the accuser`s mother wasn`t happy at first about making this rebuttal video. She kind of fought it. She finally went there and did it. But even then, she was fighting over signing the consent form. So there were things that he said that buttressed the prosecution case.

But he didn`t nail down this whole scripted thing, which is what supposedly Debbie Rowe is going to be limited to testifying about. The judge says, even though she could say a number of things -- she`s known Michael Jackson for decades -- they`re going to try to limit it to that one issue.

GRACE: Well, the other thing, Ray, a common misperception is, it`s not the witness who invokes the privilege. It won`t be Debbie Rowe that jumps up and says, I can`t answer that, husband-wife marital privilege.

Jackson will invoke it in front of the jury if the state or the -- well, just the state goes into any area that they don`t want to hear about.

GIUDICE: Well, that`s right. And it puts Jackson in a very precarious position. Mesereau is going to have to invoke that privilege only in a dire circumstance.

I did want to go back to a point that was just made, however. Keep in mind that this rebuttal tape was not made at the Neverland Ranch. It was made at the videographer`s home with -- I think it was only one Jackson confidante there. He negotiated over the phone with the accuser`s mother who, according to Hamid, apparently became happy and satisfied with the resolution of whatever issue and debate they had and agreed to go ahead and make the rebuttal tape.

So, I think the fact that it`s not at Neverland, it`s a safe place, if she needed to outcry for help, she had that opportunity there to do so. So, I think that really puts a dagger in the conspiracy theory.

GRACE: Well, what about it, Daniel Horowitz? The way I see it, the conspiracy theory goes more toward keeping the family on Neverland. That`s the allegation. I think, with Debbie Rowe, though, where do you think it fits in, Daniel?

HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, to me, this entire conspiracy theory is based on the sense that you can control a mother and these children by a variety of means, with the ultimate one being ferreting them out of country to Brazil.

It doesn`t hold water to me. Brazil, for example, is a very large country. You are giving up control of the mother once you put her in a major civilized country basically on her own. And this whole business about keeping her a prisoner in Neverland, when she has access, again, to cell phones and her boyfriend does not make sense.

GRACE: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, wait, wait.

False imprisonment goes toward keeping someone out, as well as keeping someone in. If I lock you out of your house, that is restricting your movement.

HOROWITZ: True.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: And if I lock you in your house, so that`s a -- sending them to Brazil, hello, and a one-way ticket. How are they going to get back? They`re broke.

HOROWITZ: Nancy, how are they going to get back?

GRACE: Hitchhike?

HOROWITZ: Once you`re in Brazil, you call up "The National Enquirer" or you call Nancy grace and say, help. Get me out of Brazil.

GRACE: You know...

HOROWITZ: Nancy, you would fly her back.

GRACE: No. I got you right there. Sending them to Brazil -- Ray, am I right or wrong?

GIUDICE: Well...

GRACE: Sending them to Brazil, one-way ticket, is just as much of a false imprisonment under the law.

GIUDICE: It is. It is.

I think the point is well-made, though. Again, it would allow the accuser`s mother -- if she needed help, she is not out in the Outback.

GRACE: Yes.

GIUDICE: She`s in Brazil. She could get assistance. She could go to the American Consulate and get help.

I don`t necessarily think that that bolsters the conspiracy theory. And again, keep in mind, the messenger, this travel agent, I mean, how much immunity -- they`re going to run out of immunity to give to these witnesses by the state.

GRACE: Well, you know what? I`m not sure.

But, Jane Velez-Mitchell, has there been immunity deals with anybody else?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, certainly, there was another witness who was able to take the Fifth. And then Chris Carter...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Immunity deals. Was there an immunity deal?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: No. I haven`t heard of those, no.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: All right, Ray, I`ll give you a chance to step back and punt when we get back.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: I can`t go into a park. I can`t go to Disneyland as myself. I can`t go out and walk down the street. There`s crowds and bumper-to- bumper cars. And so I create my world behind my gates. Everything that I love is behind those gates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is from Jackson`s first public response to the current child molestation charges.

Welcome back.

Out to Daniel Horowitz.

Daniel Horowitz, we know Debbie Rowe testifying tomorrow. Do you think that will be the last state`s witness?

HOROWITZ: Nancy, I think so. It seems like that`s the big wrap-up. It makes sense for Sneddon to try to end on a high note.

Just because I think it is not a high note for him doesn`t mean that he sees it the same way. This is somebody close to Michael who essentially was intimate with him, we think. So that could be a big bang for the buck if she really nails him. However...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Intimate with him? Don`t go there, Daniel. You`re opening up a can of worms on that one.

HOROWITZ: I know. But, you know, Nancy, that`s an interesting issue. Did he have any attraction to her as an adult woman? That`s going to be an issue on the minds of these jurors. And we`ll see where it goes tomorrow. Maybe Sneddon knows something that we don`t quite know, but we`re thinking.

GRACE: Hey, Jane Velez-Mitchell, question to you. I`m guessing that that would be off-limits for cross-examine?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it`s such an interesting question because the defense threatened to play the entire three-hour rebuttal interview that Debbie Rowe did. And she covers a whole wide range of subjects, why she gave her children to Michael as a gift, on and on.

Michael Jackson, in that same documentary that aired on FOX, said they conceived of their children in the old fashioned way. So, if that rebuttal interview is played, it really opens a door for a lot of stuff to come in. And where does it end? I mean, she knows so much about Michael Jackson. She goes back so many years. She was his nurse for his dermatologist years before they got married. So, it really is going to be interesting how the judge limits this testimony.

GRACE: Right.

What do you make of it, Dr. Gardere, her marriage to Jackson and then the immediate dissolution of the marriage once the children were born?

GARDERE: Well, I think we heard it directly from the -- Jacksons` parents` attorney, where many people believe that she was hired in order to have those children for on and, for two, to play this role, as perhaps Lisa Marie Presley did, of him being this very viral heterosexual individual. So it certainly can play in a very fascinating way with Debbie Rowe`s testimony.

GRACE: And what about the jury?

GARDERE: I think the jury certainly sees that she`s got some baggage. They`re not quite sure of what kind of mom she is, whether she was in some ways hired or whether she is someone who really does care about her children and has been enamored by the Michael Jackson charisma.

GRACE: But, Daniel Horowitz, have you ever had a witness, a single witness, that didn`t have baggage? That goes without saying. Of course there`s going to be something for cross-examination.

HOROWITZ: Really, I don`t see her having that much baggage, Nancy. I see her as a surrogate mother, not so much as somebody that sold her children. It`s a little bit different.

She`s just an odd person in a very odd world of Michael Jackson. There`s nobody normal close to Michael Jackson. So, in that universe, she is actually fairly straightforward.

GRACE: Let`s go, Ray Giudice, to issue of Brian Oxman.

Hey, Elizabeth (ph), do we have that footage of Oxman and lead attorney Mesereau? Oh, not it. There`s Michael Jackson giving Oxman a big hug, followed by hugs from Jackson`s family.

Ray, he got fired about an hour later. Then there was a blast-out out in the parking lot after, Oxman and Mesereau. What do make of it, Ray?

GIUDICE: Well, Nancy, we`re coming down to crunch time. Mesereau doesn`t need any distractions. He`s in charge of this ship. He`s the captain of the ship. And there might have been some problems from this other attorney, who have may been trying to ingrate himself into the case or may have been reflecting some concerns about the family members.

But I totally agree...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Uh-oh. Somebody is in trouble.

GIUDICE: Well, that may be, but...

GRACE: Take a look at that. And another thing, Oxman.

(CROSSTALK)

GIUDICE: I agree with Mesereau. There`s no time to play around. If this guy has been a problem or is any distraction, you cut him loose.

GRACE: Hey, Ray.

GIUDICE: Yes.

GRACE: When you don`t know a horse. Look at his track record.

GIUDICE: Right.

GRACE: Remember somebody named Benjamin Brafman?

GIUDICE: That`s right.

GRACE: The tough-talking, street-fighting New York lawyer that went out there to take control of this case? Jackson fired him. Remember Mark Geragos, the lawyer that oozes charm? He got the boot, too. Now Oxman.

(CROSSTALK)

GIUDICE: Well, I don`t think that`s a similar reaction. I think this is clearly a Mesereau decision. He`s coming down to the final work on this case. And he wants total control. He doesn`t want any distractions. I don`t think it`s any more complicated than that, Nancy.

GRACE: All right.

Let`s go to the source.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, agree or disagree?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I can tell you, I have heard a lot of rumors and speculation about what was really going on.

I think I agree. Mesereau has to be in charge. Everybody acknowledges that he`s done a brilliant job thus far and it`s really his right to call who his team is going to be. There`s been some speculation that perhaps Brian was really trying hard to help, but without Mesereau`s approval in terms of how he was trying to help and Mesereau wasn`t too happy about perhaps working overtime.

GRACE: Jane, wasn`t there an Oxman cell phone call in the lobby of the courthouse or just outside the courthouse that was picked up by a reporter and it reflected badly on the case?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes. There was that, too. Apparently, there were some arguments over even ego things, like who`s going to stay where, at what hotel.

GRACE: Oh, good lord. There you go.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what we hear.

GRACE: You know...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hey, people are people. You can`t get past it. There`s a lot of egos involved here. There`s a lot of tension. There`s a lot of ego.

GRACE: And, Jane, Jane, it takes so much to make a lawyer look bad. You know, we have kind of got a bad reputation.

Everybody, we are going to a very quick break. We`ll be back shortly.

But to tonight`s all-points bulletin. The FBI and law enforcement around the country looking for this man, Alejandro Santana, wanted for the shooting death of an used car salesman during a test drive in Sacramento, California, August 2000. Santana, 24 years old, 5`8``, 200 pounds, brown hair, brown eyes, considered armed and dangerous. If you have any information on Alejandro Santana, call the FBI at 202-324-3000.

Local news coming up for some of you. But we`ll be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson child sex trial tomorrow 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: As you know, we here at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Tonight, take a look at Latricia Fipps. She`s a mother from Tulsa, Oklahoma. On November 20, 2002, she never came home from work. If you have any information on this woman, Latricia Fipps, please call the Carole Sund/Carrington Foundation toll free, 888-813-8389. A reward could be involved for any information relating to this mother, Latricia Fipps.

Welcome back, everybody.

Very quickly, Daniel Horowitz, we have only got a few moments left. What`s the worst they can throw at Debbie Rowe?

HOROWITZ: The financial motive, Nancy. Michael`s a sinking ship and that is when she finally says, I want the children. I bet these kids have big trust accounts. As Michael goes under financially, she gets the kids and the money. That`s what they will throw at her.

GRACE: Ray, what is the worst thing? They`ve got to have more than money to throw at her.

GIUDICE: Mesereau is going to take that tape that we saw earlier and make her repeat those statements, that Michael would never, ever harm a child. And he`s going to repeat it as many times as that judge will let him do it.

GRACE: Yes. Good point.

Dr. Jeff Gardere, what about it?

GARDERE: She gave up custody of her children at the beginning. She let Michael be the father and only parent. And they will look at a mom allowing that to happen in her life.

There are prejudices in that way.

GRACE: I think he is right about that, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Women are held to a different standard. If she`s perceived as being a bad girl, not following the rules, or, God forbid, a bad mother, she is up the creek without a paddle. Bye-bye.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely.

There`s a lot of emotion under-riding all of this. You`re talking about motherhood. You`re talking about children. And all these people come in with such baggage. You have to wonder what the jurors are thinking about all of these mothers. And are they going to blame them for everything that`s happened?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Oh, man. Don`t you know, Jane, this jury goes home every night and takes an aspirin and an Alka-Seltzer and goes to bed. Whew.

OK, I want to thank all of my guests tonight. What a panel.

But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us again tonight, inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up next, headlines from all around the world.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I hope to see you here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And, until tomorrow night, good night, friend.

END