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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Nuclear Defiance From North Korea; Blunder at Pentagon; Blair's Battle
Aired May 02, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, nuclear defiance from North Korea. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice gives the North Koreans today a blunt warning.
And an astonishing Pentagon blunder. Classified military information accidentally released on the Internet.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Also ahead on LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, "Broken Borders." The agriculture industry makes big profits by employing illegal aliens. Our guest is a congressman who says border security is a national security issue.
And Blair's battle. Tony Blair fights to win an historic third term as Britain's prime minister.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, the United States is facing new and escalating nuclear threats from both Iran and North Korea. Iran is threatening to restart its uranium enrichment program. The White House says that program is simply a cover to build nuclear weapons.
And North Korea apparently test-fired a ballistic missile into the Sea of Japan. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today declared no one should doubt the U.S. ability to deter North Korea.
Andrea Koppel reports from the White House -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPT. CORRESPONDENT: Lou, for the second day in a row, the White House sought to downplay the significance of that North Korean missile test, saying it was just a continuation of a series of provocative acts by the world's most isolated country. The test of what is believed to have been a short- range missile took place Sunday. And while landing in the Sea of Japan, did not reach as far as Japan. In 1998, North Korea, you'll remember, test-fired a missile which actually flew over the island.
Now, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was asked today about the test and she basically dismissed it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't think there should be any -- any doubt about our ability to deter whatever the North Koreans are up to. But that does not mean that it's not a serious problem and that the North Koreans shouldn't come back to the six- party talks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: But those talks have been a bust. They haven't taken place now for more than a year.
The Bush administration has been bracing in recent days for a more ominous test, a test that they were greatly concerned could happen of a North Korean nuclear device. That as yet has to happen.
In recent days -- in fact, just last week -- the vice admiral, Lowell Jacoby of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said that the U.S. had intelligence that did believe the assessment was that North Korea could place a nuclear device on top of one of those missiles. The Pentagon quickly walked back from that.
And the timing of North Korea's missile test on Sunday is noteworthy, Lou, because all of it takes place against the backdrop of talks in New York to review what is known as the nuclear nonproliferation treaty, also known as the NPT. That was a treaty that North Korea withdrew from back in 2003 and since announced that it did have nuclear weapons -- Lou.
DOBBS: Andrea, thank you very much.
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan today appeared to suggest that the United States and Russian nuclear weapons are just as troubling, at least to him, as the nuclear ambitions of Iran and North Korea. Annan challenged the United States and Russia to slash their stockpiles of nuclear weapons to just a few hundred warheads.
Both countries already plan to reduce the number of warheads to about 2,000 each. Annan declared all countries must work toward a world that is free of nuclear weapons.
Turning to the war in Iraq, insurgents today launched a new wave of bomb attacks against Iraqi government officials. The insurgents exploded eight car bombs in Baghdad in the northern city of Mosul. Thirteen Iraqis he were killed, 50 other Iraqis wounded. The target of one of those attacks, a general commanding the interior ministry special security troops. The general was not injured.
An astonishing blunder at the Pentagon. Officials inadvertently released a classified report about the death of an Italian intelligence agent at a U.S. checkpoint in Iraq. Tonight, the United States and Italy are blaming each other for that shooting.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. investigators have concluded an American soldier did nothing wrong when he fired bullets into this Toyota, killing Italian agent Nicola Calipari and wounding both Giuliana Sgrena, an Italian journalist whose release he had just secured, and the car's driver. The checkpoint shooting occurred the evening of March 4 along Route Irish, the seven-and-a-half mile road between Baghdad and the airport dubbed the deadliest in Iraq.
Among the findings, 15 to 30 vehicles had been safely stopped at the checkpoint earlier that night. The driver admitted going as fast as 50 miles per hour. The U.S. thinks it might have been faster.
The car did not slow down when signaled by a U.S. soldier holding a search light and laser pointer. The car didn't respond to a burst of warning fire.
Disabling firing hit the car in the right and front. And the time between the first shot and the car coming to a stop was no more than seven seconds. In addition, an American soldier told investigators the driver said afterward he heard shots from somewhere and that he panicked and started speeding, trying to get to the airport as quickly as possible.
And finally, the report found no coordination by the Italians with the U.S., stating flatly the U.S. military was totally unaware of the recovery and transport of Ms. Sgrena on 4 March, 2005, until after the shooting indent had occurred. In fact, the only American who even had a hint of what was going on at the time, an Army captain assigned as an aide to an Italian general was told by the Italians it is best if no one knows.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Now, just a short time ago, the Italians released their version of the report. They blame stress and inexperience on the part of U.S. soldiers for the incident, something the Pentagon rejects.
Neither report made mention of any ransom. The Italians deny paying one, but privately Pentagon officials say they believe Italy put as much as $10 million in the hands of terrorists to secure the release of their hostage -- Lou.
DOBBS: Let's go back to your report in which you said it's better that no one knows. Could you repeat again precisely what it is it's better that no one knows?
MCINTYRE: Well, the context there was that one U.S. soldier who was assigned to an Italian general when this was going on had some idea that they might be trying to rescue or obtain the release of the Italian journalist. And when he was asked about it, he asked if that was what was going on, and he was told, yes, that's what is happening, but it's better that nobody know about it. This is before the shooting incident. So at that -- the indication there is that the Italians were trying to keep the information to themselves. And again, the Pentagon could find no evidence that anyone other than that one person in the U.S. military had any idea that this was going on, there had been any coordination at all.
DOBBS: Does the Italian report dispute that?
MCINTYRE: Well, we haven't seen the full tex of the Italian report. So far, we haven't found anything that indicates who they say they coordinated with. There have been some broad statements by Italian officials indicating that there was some coordination, some notification, but we haven't seen any evidence of that yet.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, as always, thank you. Jamie McIntyre reporting from the Pentagon.
A new opinion poll out tonight gives President Bush one of his lowest ratings for his administration's handling of post-war Iraq. The CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup poll says 55 percent of voters disapprove of the president's handling, 42 percent approve.
The poll also gives the president more low marks for his efforts on Social Security. Fifty-eight percent disapprove, only 35 percent support the president's calls for reform.
With all of the talk about reforming Social Security and cutting benefits or raising taxes, it turns out that our Social Security system is far less generous than those of other developed countries. According to the OECD, retirees on average receive in this country just 51 percent of our after-tax earnings from Social Security. That's substantially less than the 70 percent average paid out in other developed nations.
At the top of that list, Luxembourg, which pays out 102 percent of after-tax earnings, and close behind Turkey and Greece. Way down at the bottom of the list, in 25th position out of 30 countries surveyed, the United States. But the United Kingdom is below us, at least, 26.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair faces a general election in just three days now. And illegal immigration is a huge issue in this campaign.
Both the ruling Labor Party and the opposition Conservative Party have made illegal immigration and how to stop it one of their top priorities and principle issues of the election.
Senior political analyst Bill Schneider reports now from Basildon, England.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Here in Britain the issue of illegal immigration used to be like the elephant in the room that everyone pretended not to notice. Until this year.
MICHAEL HOWARD, CONSERVATIVE PARTY LEADER: For far too long immigration has been a taboo subject. However bad the situation has been, we've not been allowed to talk about it. Well, I am not going to let the government sweep this under the carpet any more.
SCHNEIDER: Conservative Party leader Michael Howard hopes to replace Tony Blair as prime minister in Thursday's election. Polls and pundits say he hasn't got a chance. But polls also show deep public concern about rapidly rising numbers of immigrants to Britain, legal and illegal.
GERALD HOWARTH, CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE: Immigration is trampled (ph) under this government. We now have 150,000 people a year coming legally into this country. And then you have untold numbers of illegal immigrants.
SCHNEIDER: The conservatives' campaign slogan is, "Are you thinking what we're thinking?" What does it mean?
DAVID DAVIS, CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE: It means exactly that. I mean, there are plenty of people out there about every issue I talked about. And we say to them, you know, "Do you agree with us?"
SCHNEIDER: The conservatives try to preempt any charge of racism by asserting it's not racist to impose limits on immigration. We went out with a conservative candidate in Basildon, east of London, and watched him campaign in a quintessentially middle class area.
(on camera): Basildon is a bellwether. It's voted for the winning party for 40 years. If illegal immigration is an issue in this election, it has to be an issue here.
AARON POWELL, CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE: I have lost count of the number of time I have knocked on somebody's door and they said to me, "I'm not racist, but..."
SCHNEIDER: But what?
TOM FISHER, BASILDON VOTER: The problem we've got is (INAUDIBLE) unscrupulous people are coming to this country.
SCHNEIDER: And taking advantage of the system.
POWEL: Then that breeds a sense of injustice.
SCHNEIDER: Which the prime minister does not dispute.
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Concern over asylum and immigration is not about racism. It is about fairness.
SCHNEIDER: Immigration is a sleeper issue in the British campaign. In towns like Basildon, Blair is hoping it will stay asleep.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SCHNEIDER: An upset victory for the conservatives here in Britain on Thursday, that would be a wakeup call for all the politicians -- Lou.
DOBBS: A wakeup call, Bill. But at the same time, it appears both labor and the Tories are equally focused on it, expressing concern about it. In Basildon, what did you find? What is the degree of concern there amongst the voters? And does anyone expect it to be a driver in the results of this election?
SCHNEIDER: Well, two separate questions. The voters talk about it a great deal. They are concerned about it.
The polls show it isn't a top concern, but there are a lot of people wondering, are the polls really accurate, are the voters somehow inhibited about talking openly about their concern over both immigration, which is high and has risen, and illegal immigration? And no one knows what those numbers are.
Will it drive the campaign? It doesn't appear to yet. But the Labor Party is very, very worried that it is precisely that, a sleeper issue that suddenly will show up on Thursday.
DOBBS: And I have to ask you this, because within your report, and just now talking about illegal immigration and immigration, illegal immigration is obviously a very important issue in this country and the crisis...
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
DOBBS: ... of illegal immigration is intensifying. But it's very clear here, we're talking in the United States about illegal immigration. There seems to be the suggestion, and correct me if I'm wrong, that in the U.K. it's immigration and legal immigration that's a concern there.
SCHNEIDER: That's correct. The level of immigration has risen during the eight years of the labor government under Tony Blair. There's no denying that. Those are the official figures.
The level of illegal immigration no one knows. But people are worried about it, and they believe that there are growing numbers of people who are in this country illegally. So they are both issues here.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, thank you very much, sir.
Still ahead, this economy does not benefit from illegal immigration. Employers do. Our special report tonight on an industry that benefits immensely from exploiting illegal labor.
And buy American. America's manufacturing base has been so diminished that there is no way we can comply with a proposed law to buy American. That story coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: A new group of volunteers is planning to help the Minuteman Project monitor our border with Mexico. The Friends of the Border Patrol will be deployed in California this coming August. The group's leader, Andy Ramirez, says citizens volunteering to defend our nation in time of war and crisis is a time-honored tradition. So far, 300 people have volunteered for the project, including former law enforcement and military officials.
The Minuteman Project, which attracted thousands of volunteers, ended over the weekend. The group said the month-long project helped apprehend 335 illegal aliens. That is despite intense criticism of the group, even from President Bush, who called the minutemen vigilantes. Even "The New York Times" this weekend ran what appeared to be a begrudging article about the success of the Minuteman Project.
A new study out today highlights the rising number of Hispanic workers in this country. Many of those new workers are, of course, illegal, illegal aliens who are displacing American workers and bringing wages for working U.S. citizens down.
Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Plenty of Americans want to work in the construction industry. But new immigrant workers snapped up about half the new jobs last year. And the Pew Hispanic Center says 70 percent of immigrants from Latin America are illegal.
The trend can be seen all over the economy in a range of jobs: plaster workers, hotel workers, service jobs in hotels and restaurants, hospital workers.
RAKESH KOCHHAR, PEW HISPANIC CENTER: What we found in the last year is that out of the 2.5 million jobs created in the economy, one million went to Latino workers, almost all of whom were recently- arrived immigrants.
PILGRIM: Newly-arrived immigrants are not just staying on the border. States showing the largest growth in immigrant population in the last four years, Tennessee, Alaska, Georgia, North Carolina, Washington, and Maryland. Legal or not, employers are hiring them. And wages are falling as new immigrants are willing to work for less.
The Pew Hispanic study found those who lose out the most are legal American-born Latinos. American Hispanic workers lost 44,000 jobs in laundry services and housework, and recent immigrants picked up nearly all of those jobs.
DANIEL GRISWOLD, CATO INSTITUTE: It confirms a lot of things that we already knew. One, that Hispanics who come here as immigrants are competing most directly with other recent Hispanic immigrants. Secondly, that immigrants are moving beyond traditional urban centers and out more into the countryside or suburban areas. PILGRIM: New immigrants are taking any work they can get and getting it in disproportionate numbers. Forty percent of new jobs went to newly-arrived Latino workers, even though they make up only 15 percent of the work force.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the numbers from the Pew Center point out what many Americans have known intuitively for years, the recent wave of immigrant has made finding a job in certain industries harder to do and the wages in those industries, Lou, a lot harder to live on.
DOBBS: Now, the Pew study did not break out numbers in terms of illegal and legal immigrants.
PILGRIM: That's right. But when pressed, they said that they estimate from other studies about 70 percent of the Latino immigrants are illegal.
DOBBS: Why would they not put that bold faced straightforwardly in front of the readers of that study, those that they are trying to communicate?
PILGRIM: Yes. It was enigmatic why they didn't break it out into two different groups. But -- but when pressed, they did come up with that.
DOBBS: And it's enigmatic why any organization that has "Pew Hispanic Center" with the word "Hispanic," why it would not take great pains to differentiate the interest of illegal immigrants and those who are legal and who are embraced in this country.
PILGRIM: Particularly when the Hispanic population is the population that's being hurt. The legal Hispanic population is being hurt by this wave of illegal immigration.
DOBBS: And yet Hispanic activists, open border activists in this country, will try to claim some sort of basic ownership of Hispanic values when talking about illegal immigration. And they seem to be absolutely disdainful of the true interest of Hispanic-American workers in this country. It's mind-boggling.
PILGRIM: It certainly is. And -- but one thing is clear about this. Hispanics are being hurt, legal Hispanics are being hurt by this.
DOBBS: And nationally, wages are estimated to be somewhere around $150 billion, working wages in this country for U.S. citizens, $150 billion, and depressed wages a year. That, in addition to all of the other burdens, has obviously a tremendous impact on the economy. Not to mention society and our culture.
Kitty Pilgrim, thank you very much for the report.
One American industry that benefits greatly, perhaps more than any other, in fact, from the millions of illegal aliens in this country is agriculture. More than half of all of the farm workers in this country are illegal aliens working for low, exploitive wages.
Casey Wian reports from Santa Paula, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hundreds of thousands of farm workers in this country are illegal aliens. Growers know it, so does the government. It's a business grown dependent on lawbreakers and accomplices with little interference from authorities.
Growers hire middlemen harvesting companies or farm labor contractors who in turn hire the workers. This contractor who spoke on condition we conceal his identity says illegal aliens are often the only people willing to endure the physical demands and seasonal nature of farm labor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're forced to hire, you know, whoever is out there. And those type of workers are workers that are coming across the border, whether that is legal or otherwise. We're in kind of a catch-22 situation where if we don't come up with laborers we are just not going to be able to harvest the fruit
WIAN: Most harvesting companies require immigration documents from their workers. But the only real requirement is that documents can't be obvious frauds.
(on camera): The Labor Department estimates about half of the nation's farm workers are illegal aliens. Here in Ventura County, California, the number is much higher, about 80 percent. And farm labor contractors say they could double the wages they pay and still not attract enough legal workers.
(voice-over): Workers here average $8 to $9 an hour depending on the crop. The most productive can make twice that. But only for a few weeks at a time.
LANCE COMPA, LABOR LAW PROFESSOR, CORNELL UNIVERSITY: The hourly wage for a lot of farm workers isn't that bad, you know. I think this idea that growers are getting rich off exploiting low wages, there is a lot of exploitation, but it's not so much wages.
WIAN: Compa says California is one of only a handful of states that recognize farm worker unions. And even the largest of those say the beneficiary of illegal alien labor is not big agriculture but U.S. consumers. The average American spends just $7 a week on fresh produce.
ARTURO RODRIGUEZ, PRESIDENT, UNITED FARM WORKERS: Consumers obviously want the best food that they can, the best produced food that they can possibly get, at the best price that they can receive. And so those pressures are always on the agricultural industry, as well as the farm labor force.
WIAN: Other pressures include increased competition from Chinese and South American produce imports, harvested where wages and labor conditions are much worse. Casey Wian, CNN, Santa Paula, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And on the subject of illegal immigration and border security, tonight the Mexican government is taking on one of our guests who appeared on this broadcast almost three weeks ago. Peter Gadiel, the president of the 9/11 Families for a Secure America was here as our guest to discuss his support for the Real I.D. Act, which is designed, of course, in part to keep drivers' licenses out of the hands of illegal aliens.
While he was here, Mr. Gadtiel showed us just how easily it is to obtain a Mexican I.D. card that many illegals are using to obtain drivers' licenses in some states. And he showed us his, his phony matricula consular.
Mr. Gadiel's appearance here prompted a sharply-worded letter from Mexico's counsel general. That leader asked Gadiel to surrender his matricula consular card, saying in part, "Our attorneys are currently exploring all legal avenues on this matter to determine responsibilities in the purchase and use of a forged Mexican government-issued I.D."
Peter Gadiel, for his part, says he is amazed by the letter from the Mexican government and says he has done nothing illegal. He will be here to talk about this astonishing development this coming Thursday. And we have yet to hear from the Mexican government as to how many letters of complaint they have sent to illegal aliens using matricula consulars as -- and other forged documents in this country to obtain jobs and entry to this country.
We'll continue to explore that with the Mexican government here.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe the Bush administration will ever get serious about border security, yes or no? Cast your vote, loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up tonight.
Next here, how some foreign manufacturers are getting away with labeling their products "Made in America." It's a good thing, too. We'll explain why. Our special report on that is next.
And then, new hope for the Real I.D. Act. Just weeks after it appeared stalled, perhaps dead. One sponsor of the legislation will tell us how it survived and its prospects now on Capitol Hill.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Congress appears near an agreement on the $82 billion emergency spending bill for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. That measure also includes now the Real I.D. Act, which would, among other things, make it tougher for illegal aliens to get drivers' licenses and reform our asylum laws. My guest tonight is one of the co-sponsors of the Real I.D. Act. Congressman Ed Royce joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
Congressman, good to have you with us. Are you confident tonight that this is going to make it into law?
REP. ED ROYCE (R), CALIFORNIA: We are confident now that the Senate is -- has concurred with the House position. It looks as though the Real I.D. Act will be -- will be on the president's desk probably within a week. And it's lucky that we're enacting it.
DOBBS: All right. Explain that, if you will.
ROYCE: I chair the International Terrorism and Nonproliferation Subcommittee. And we have a very great concern over the communications that al-Zarqawi has had, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed also, that those in al Qaeda have had with their lieutenants, press accounts about the desire to bring people in through the southern border. And the Real I.D. Act will do a great deal to help secure that border.
DOBBS: Are these threats and other intelligence, have they been helpful and persuasive among some recalcitrant senators -- there's no other way to say it -- in attaching this legislation to the supplemental, must-pass legislation as was promised originally to Congressman Sensenbrenner?
ROYCE: Absolutely, because it's the 9/11 Commission that has told us that these four provisions must be put into law in order to make certain that another 9/11 doesn't occur in the United States. But I'll just share with you that when I was down on the southern border for a press conference with Chairman Sensenbrenner and several of my colleagues, I talked with a border security agent there who had intercepted an individual originally from (INAUDIBLE), who had been trained in jihad in Afghanistan. He had caught this individual trying to come over the border. And from what we have seen, and accounts, and commentary by our FBI director, Director Mueller, about the incidents of people changing their names from an Arabic to Hispanic surname and then coming over the border, this represents a very real concern for us right now.
DOBBS: The idea of the visa waiver program, you are also concerned about that and specifically with Mexico and Brazil?
ROYCE: Absolutely. There is an area in southern Brazil where Hezbollah and Hamas have long had operations and the triborder region down there in southern Brazil. And as a consequence of that activity, and as a result of this new visa waiver program between Mexico and Brazil, we have seen a tremendous surge in illegal immigration from Brazil over our southern border, over 8,000 incidences last year.
Monitoring this surge and seeing that a number of it involves people from countries of concern, or countries that had traditionally sponsored terrorism should give great pause to our policy makers. And this is another reason why the enactment of the Real I.D. Act is so important. DOBBS: Just to reinforce what -- your point on Brazil. They are now -- the illegal aliens from Brazil are now the fourth largest group of those crossing our borders illegally.
The idea that border security is in such terrible condition -- you were mentioning smugglers, (INAUDIBLE), so-called, when you appeared with Congressman James Sensenbrenner. The number of people crossing our borders, estimates run as high as 3 million last year. Bear Stearns puts the number of illegal aliens in this country as high as 20 million. That would be for those who are counting, two-thirds the population of Canada. It's extraordinary.
Is there any hope in your mind that we're going to see people get serious, first of all, about border security, particularly this administration, since it is in power?
ROYCE: Well, the Real I.D. Act is the first step, and the administration has indicated it will sign that.
But then we have to move toward interior enforcement. And as you know, the administration has yet to see the light in terms of supporting the type of interior enforcement we would like to see have.
Lastly, I just mention that in some counties around the United States, like Orange County, California, my county, where Sheriff Carona is now developing a program, they are targeting criminal aliens and putting together a special program that will allow access to records, to federal databases, so that those who commit crimes in the United States can be checked, if they are in those databases. They can partner up with federal immigration authorities, and we can have them deported.
This represents a big step forward. And we're crafting legislation right now to try to expand that program beyond these few counties in Florida and California nationwide.
DOBBS: Well, and the end of these sanctuary laws, so-called, couldn't come too soon to provide for the national security.
Congressman Royce, we thank you very much for being here. Come back soon.
ROYCE: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Coming up next here, why a proposed "buy American" law -- would-be law for transportation equipment, might be just simply impossible to comply with should it become law.
And North Korea's nuclear and missile threat. I'll be talking with a former top State Department official, who says North Korea is simply insulting our president.
And later, she's not usually one to steal the show, but the first lady did just that over the weekend. We'll have her hilarious roast of her husband. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A new bill passed by the House of Representatives calls for 60 percent of all transportation equipment to be made in the USA. The Senate has yet to take up the legislation, but critics are saying our diminished manufacturing base is now so small that that bill, should it become law, would be impossible to comply with. Lisa Sylvester has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lenora Talley has worked as a welder for the Gillig Corporation for three years, building transit buses. But she worries foreign competition, which has been eroding the U.S. manufacturing base, may one day cost her her job.
LENORE TALLEY, WELDER, GILLIG CORPORATION: It makes me feel angry, mad, because they are taking the jobs from us and giving them to somebody else.
SYLVESTER: Gillig, which began building buggies and carriages in 1890 is one of only two remaining American owned and operated bus manufacturers in the United States. Gillig's future now rests on a "buy American" amendment to a congressional bill authorizing future transportation projects.
The amendment would strengthen the existing law that requires 60 percent domestic content for transit contracts. Supporters say the law has been watered down by exemptions and waivers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could have a machine that has a thousand parts. Every one of those could be made in China, but as long as you assemble it in a garage in the United States, it has got the stamp of made in the USA.
SYLVESTER: Foreign competitors also make a range of other transit equipment, including subway card readers. Foreign companies are often subsidized by their governments, creating an unlevel playing field for U.S. companies.
DENNIS HOWARD, PRESIDENT, GILLIG CORPORATION: I think American jobs are at issue. I think that the tax dollars should be used to make jobs for Americans versus jobs for foreigners.
SYLVESTER: The House included the "buy American" amendment in its $284 billion version of the transportation bill that passed in the last Congress.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Senate has not passed its transportation legislation yet, but senators are being pressured to act soon, because the current extension expires at the end of this month, and the construction season is already under way -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the effect of not meeting that extension deadline? SYLVESTER: Well, one of the things they are looking at is that as we push further and further into the summer months, that it means that it's the status quo, and it means projects are languished, it means that a lot of businesses, for instance, that were relying on these contracts, their future is sort of up in the air right now, Lou.
DOBBS: Is this a wake-up call to any of our lawmakers, Lisa, that the fact that we can't even comply with the 60 percent composition law is a suggestion we have a real fundamental problem here in this country?
SYLVESTER: Well, it certainly is a problem. And one of the things that has been happening over the years is that as more -- as foreign competition has increased, it's better positioned the foreign companies and it's left the American companies behind, which is one of the reasons why we're in this situation today. Those American companies can't compete with the subsidized foreign companies, and then fast forward and you find ourselves in this situation, Lou.
DOBBS: Brilliant policy, over so many years.
Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.
Coming up next here, North Korea's bold military test. We'll be joined here by one foreign policy expert who says the test proves North Korea poses a real nuclear threat to the rest of the world.
And then, illegal alien crisis. A new movement to stop one state from giving in-state tuition to illegal aliens and denying in-state tuition to American citizens. I'll be talking with a man leading the movement, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says North Korea's apparent missile test into the Sea of Japan is nothing less than an insult to President Bush. He says the missile test and the escalating rhetoric of the North Korean regime clearly demonstrate Pyongyang's threat to peace and security worldwide. Mitchell Reiss, vice provost for International Affairs at William and Mary. He served as director for policy planning for Secretary of State Colin Powell. Good to have you with us.
MITCHELL REISS, WILLIAM AND MARY: Thank you. Good to be here.
DOBBS: This -- first, let's start with the language that has been adopted by every news organization and apparently every arm of the government: "an apparent missile test." We don't know for certain that there was a missile test?
REISS: Well, I think it's been pretty clearly shown that it was a short-range missile. It's unclear whether it was a new missile, whether it was a surface-to-ship missile or not, so some of the details are yet unknown but it was -- there's no ambiguity the North did in fact test a short-range missile. DOBBS: With the nonproliferation talks about to commence, is this a clear provocation in your mind on the part of the North Koreans?
REISS: Well, it's actually the latest in a series of provocative actions and statements that they have taken in the last few months, really starting with February 10, where they issued a statement admitting they had a nuclear deterrent. So, it's a continuation of an escalatory pattern that they have shown over the last few months. I'm not sure it's necessarily tied to the MPT Review Conference starting in New York earlier today.
DOBBS: The fact of the matter is that Condoleezza Rice, our secretary of state, said that the United States -- there should be no doubt the United States can deter the aggression of North Korea. Are you as confident?
REISS: Oh, I think that's absolutely right. It's not just the United States, it's our South Korean allies, also, who stand shoulder to shoulder with us on the peninsula. So, there is no doubt that we can deter North Korea from taking provocative action, militarily, against our position in northeast Asia.
DOBBS: The -- while you're confident, the fact of the matter is, the absence of any initiative, at least one that is overt on the part of the Chinese government here, which seems to hold within its political sphere of influence absolute sway over the North Koreans, why have they been so hesitant to deal directly with this issue, deal directly with North Korea?
REISS: That's exactly the right question to ask because China does have the most influence, short of war, over North Korea. They provide upwards of 80 percent of the energy and food assistance that North Korea gets from the outside. The United States has tried to persuade China to ratchet up the pressure on North Korea. The Chinese in turn have tried to persuade the North Koreans the return to Beijing for the six-party talks. So far, they've had no success in doing so. In fact, the North Koreans have behaved in a very insulting manner towards the Chinese, recently declining to host the President's Hu Jintao's visit to Pyongyang.
DOBBS: Would it not be wiser, on the part of the United States government, to make it very clear to the Chinese, given all that is been built on our relationship, principally U.S. capital, that this is a Chinese problem, and that we would expect them, in sharing hegemony, if you will, in the area, because, at least they certainly share it, to deal with North Korean problem and deal with it forthwith?
REISS: Well, I think that has in fact been one of the approaches the United States has pursued for the last four years. We have engaged in long conversations with the Chinese about the threat that North Korea poses, not just to us, but also to China and also to stability and security in northeast Asia. The question is, how much pressure is China willing to bring to bear on North Korea? So far, clearly, the answer is not enough. DOBBS: And, clearly, we need to make the message absolutely blunt, direct, and unequivocal. Mitchell Reiss, we thank you for being here. We'll be discussing this, I'm sure, much more in the weeks ahead, unfortunately. Mitchell Reiss, please join us again soon.
REISS: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Coming up next at the top of the hour here on CNN, "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Anderson joins us now to tell us what is in store.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Hey, Lou. Thanks very much.
Tonight on 360, a run away bride and a jilted groom that still wants to walk down the aisle with her. Should Jennifer Wilbanks be prosecuted for lying to police, and should her groom still stand by her side? Everyone seems to have taken sides tonight. We cover all the angles.
Also, Laura Bush letting loose: we're getting up close and personal with the first lady to find out her guilty pleasure and her best punch lines. That and more at the top of the hour. Lou?
DOBBS: She had quite a few of them. Anderson, thank you very much.
Illegal alien crisis. Next I'll be talking with the attorney representing a group of college students who say they should have -- it's unimaginable -- they should have the same rights as illegal aliens in this country.
Also a stand-up lady: the lighter side, as Anderson Cooper just pointed out, the lighter side of Laura Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: George and I are complete opposite. I'm quiet. He's talkative. I'm introverted. He's extroverted. I can pronounce nuclear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: We'll have more of the first lady when we continue. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest is taking on a new law in Kansas that allows illegal aliens to attend state universities there is for greatly reduced in-state tuition rates. Kris Kobach's representing 20 students from outside the state of Kansas who are suing the state. They say that law is nothing short of unconstitutional. Kris Kobach, a law professor, University of Missouri, former counsel to Attorney General John Ashcroft, joining us from Kansas City. Good to have you with us.
KRIS KOBACH, LAW PROFESSOR, UMKC: Great to be back.
DOBBS: I think most people would be shocked to find that there is actually a law that tries to level the playing field between U.S. citizens and illegal aliens on these issues, particularly in-state tuition.
KOBACH: Yeah, in 1996, Congress predicted that some states might try to do this, that is, give in-state tuition to illegal aliens. And so Congress passed a law, saying no state can give in-state tuition unless they give in-state tuition to all U.S. citizens no matter where they live. And that's the law that we are suing under to get this Kansas statute invalidated.
DOBBS: Let's put this -- the statute just so our viewers can see that understand this is the law of the land. The fact of the matter is, there's a huge liability here if your clients were to win, isn't there?
KOBACH: Potentially, Yes. All of the out of state students in Kansas and there are eight other states doing this, by the way. All of the out of state students are entitled to be attending college at the same reduced rate that the illegal aliens are. Right now we're just suing to invalidate the law and get our plaintiffs a refund of the tuition that they've -- the extra tuition they've been paying.
DOBBS: Mat All (ph), who's a chief counselor for Governor Kathie Sebelius of Kansas, said the state would defend the law if challenged. Saying, federal preventing states from providing it, but the have a number of ways of saying that it is a key wording difference, that would make the law, in his judgment, stand up to scrutiny. Because it's just an immigrant tuition law.
KOBACH: Well, the other side is trying some very clever legalese to try that one term doesn't fit within this law. They have a tough job, because Congress predicted exactly this thing. Plus, we're also suing under the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution. Right now U.S. citizens are being discriminated against when it comes to the availability of in-state tuition vs. illegal aliens. And there's a clear constitutional violation there, as well. Not to mention the fact that this law encourages illegal aliens to violate the immigration law of the United States by rewarding illegal behavior.
DOBBS: Frankly, to me, to be straightforward about it. I guess my views on this are fairly well known. The idea that one would give illegal aliens the rights superior to those of U.S. citizens or benefits is unconsciousable.
KOBACH: Well, there's one aspect of this law, Lou, I think you'll find really interesting. The law expressly says, that if you are a foreigner here legally attending the University in Kansas, you have to pay out of state tuition. They only reward illegal aliens with instate tuition. It's crazy.
DOBBS: This is a state -- a spokeswoman, Nicole Curken (ph), representing Governor Sebelius said.
The governor supported this bill over the past two years, has been outspoken about her belief the doors of our college and universities be open to all our high school graduates, referring to Kansas public school graduates, whether legal or illegal.
KOBACH: Well, I think it's kind of interesting. The same people who are defending this law, are the same people who say we noticed to have illegal immigration in the United States, because these are low skilled workers who are -- and they are the only people who will take the jobs. Yet, in the same breath they say, but we need to give them a college education at taxpayer expense. It just doesn't fit.
DOBBS: All of this a part -- a tremendous canvas of rationalization that has been built up in this country over the last two decade on illegal immigration, that is now, at least, in part because of your work, Chris, and others beginning to come unraveled and people beginning to see the clear direct truth of what's happening.
KOBACH: Well, I think in this case people see the injustice of it all. When a U.S. citizen is taxed to subsidize the education of someone who is violating federal criminal law.
DOBBS: Kris Kobach, thank you very much.
KOBACH: My pleasure.
DOBBS: We'll be back with you soon.
KOBACH: OK.
DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll. Do you believe the Bush administration will ever get serious about border security, yes or no? Give us your vote please, yes or no at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up in just a few minutes.
Next a preview of what is ahead tomorrow. And Laura Bush proves she is a stand-up first lady. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well first the results of our poll tonight, overwhelming you might say. Ninety-eight percent of you say the Bush administration will never get serious about border security, 2 percent remain hopeful.
President Bush was the guest of honor at the White House correspondents dinner this past Saturday. But it was first lady Laura Bush who had the guests doubled over in laughter. The butt of most of the jokes, her husband.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: I am married to the president of the United States, and here's our typical evening. 9:00 Mr. Excitement is sound asleep, and I'm watching "Desperate House Wives" -- with Lynne Cheney. Ladies and gentlemen, I am a desperate housewife. I mean, if those women on that show think they're desperate, they ought to be with George.
One night -- one night after George went to bed, Lynne Cheney, Condi Rice, Karen Hughes and I went to Chip n' Dales. I wouldn't even mention it, except Ruth Ginsberg and Sandra Day O'Connor saw us there. I won't tell you what happened, but Lynn's Secret Service code name is now dollar bill.
George always says he's delighted to come to these press dinners -- baloney. He's usually in bed by now. I'm not kidding. I said to him the other day, George, if you really want to end tyranny in the world, you're going to have to stay up later.
The amazing thing, however, is that George and I were just meant to be. I was a librarian who spent 12 hours a day in the library. Yet somehow I met George. People often wonder what my mother-in-law is really like. People think she's a sweet grand motherly Aunt B. type. She's actually more like Don Corleone.
I'm proud of George. He's learned a lot about ranching, since that first year when he tried to milk the horse. What's worse it was a male horse. George's answer to any problem at the ranch is to cut it down with a chain saw. Which I think is why he and Cheney and Rumsfeld get along so well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The president today said simply his wife had a couple of funny lines and got carried away, referring to her as Laura "Leno" Bush. Whatever, he should start getting his hands on those writers of hers.
Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. "Broken Borders," how the construction industry is benefiting from the illegal labor of hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens in this country.
And the senator leading the investigation into the U.N. Oil-for- Food scandal will be our special guest.
Tomorrow, please join us. For all of us here, good night from New York.
"ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now -- Anderson.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired May 2, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, nuclear defiance from North Korea. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice gives the North Koreans today a blunt warning.
And an astonishing Pentagon blunder. Classified military information accidentally released on the Internet.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Also ahead on LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, "Broken Borders." The agriculture industry makes big profits by employing illegal aliens. Our guest is a congressman who says border security is a national security issue.
And Blair's battle. Tony Blair fights to win an historic third term as Britain's prime minister.
ANNOUNCER: This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Good evening.
Tonight, the United States is facing new and escalating nuclear threats from both Iran and North Korea. Iran is threatening to restart its uranium enrichment program. The White House says that program is simply a cover to build nuclear weapons.
And North Korea apparently test-fired a ballistic missile into the Sea of Japan. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice today declared no one should doubt the U.S. ability to deter North Korea.
Andrea Koppel reports from the White House -- Andrea.
ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPT. CORRESPONDENT: Lou, for the second day in a row, the White House sought to downplay the significance of that North Korean missile test, saying it was just a continuation of a series of provocative acts by the world's most isolated country. The test of what is believed to have been a short- range missile took place Sunday. And while landing in the Sea of Japan, did not reach as far as Japan. In 1998, North Korea, you'll remember, test-fired a missile which actually flew over the island.
Now, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was asked today about the test and she basically dismissed it. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: I don't think there should be any -- any doubt about our ability to deter whatever the North Koreans are up to. But that does not mean that it's not a serious problem and that the North Koreans shouldn't come back to the six- party talks.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KOPPEL: But those talks have been a bust. They haven't taken place now for more than a year.
The Bush administration has been bracing in recent days for a more ominous test, a test that they were greatly concerned could happen of a North Korean nuclear device. That as yet has to happen.
In recent days -- in fact, just last week -- the vice admiral, Lowell Jacoby of the Defense Intelligence Agency, said that the U.S. had intelligence that did believe the assessment was that North Korea could place a nuclear device on top of one of those missiles. The Pentagon quickly walked back from that.
And the timing of North Korea's missile test on Sunday is noteworthy, Lou, because all of it takes place against the backdrop of talks in New York to review what is known as the nuclear nonproliferation treaty, also known as the NPT. That was a treaty that North Korea withdrew from back in 2003 and since announced that it did have nuclear weapons -- Lou.
DOBBS: Andrea, thank you very much.
U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan today appeared to suggest that the United States and Russian nuclear weapons are just as troubling, at least to him, as the nuclear ambitions of Iran and North Korea. Annan challenged the United States and Russia to slash their stockpiles of nuclear weapons to just a few hundred warheads.
Both countries already plan to reduce the number of warheads to about 2,000 each. Annan declared all countries must work toward a world that is free of nuclear weapons.
Turning to the war in Iraq, insurgents today launched a new wave of bomb attacks against Iraqi government officials. The insurgents exploded eight car bombs in Baghdad in the northern city of Mosul. Thirteen Iraqis he were killed, 50 other Iraqis wounded. The target of one of those attacks, a general commanding the interior ministry special security troops. The general was not injured.
An astonishing blunder at the Pentagon. Officials inadvertently released a classified report about the death of an Italian intelligence agent at a U.S. checkpoint in Iraq. Tonight, the United States and Italy are blaming each other for that shooting.
Senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. investigators have concluded an American soldier did nothing wrong when he fired bullets into this Toyota, killing Italian agent Nicola Calipari and wounding both Giuliana Sgrena, an Italian journalist whose release he had just secured, and the car's driver. The checkpoint shooting occurred the evening of March 4 along Route Irish, the seven-and-a-half mile road between Baghdad and the airport dubbed the deadliest in Iraq.
Among the findings, 15 to 30 vehicles had been safely stopped at the checkpoint earlier that night. The driver admitted going as fast as 50 miles per hour. The U.S. thinks it might have been faster.
The car did not slow down when signaled by a U.S. soldier holding a search light and laser pointer. The car didn't respond to a burst of warning fire.
Disabling firing hit the car in the right and front. And the time between the first shot and the car coming to a stop was no more than seven seconds. In addition, an American soldier told investigators the driver said afterward he heard shots from somewhere and that he panicked and started speeding, trying to get to the airport as quickly as possible.
And finally, the report found no coordination by the Italians with the U.S., stating flatly the U.S. military was totally unaware of the recovery and transport of Ms. Sgrena on 4 March, 2005, until after the shooting indent had occurred. In fact, the only American who even had a hint of what was going on at the time, an Army captain assigned as an aide to an Italian general was told by the Italians it is best if no one knows.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Now, just a short time ago, the Italians released their version of the report. They blame stress and inexperience on the part of U.S. soldiers for the incident, something the Pentagon rejects.
Neither report made mention of any ransom. The Italians deny paying one, but privately Pentagon officials say they believe Italy put as much as $10 million in the hands of terrorists to secure the release of their hostage -- Lou.
DOBBS: Let's go back to your report in which you said it's better that no one knows. Could you repeat again precisely what it is it's better that no one knows?
MCINTYRE: Well, the context there was that one U.S. soldier who was assigned to an Italian general when this was going on had some idea that they might be trying to rescue or obtain the release of the Italian journalist. And when he was asked about it, he asked if that was what was going on, and he was told, yes, that's what is happening, but it's better that nobody know about it. This is before the shooting incident. So at that -- the indication there is that the Italians were trying to keep the information to themselves. And again, the Pentagon could find no evidence that anyone other than that one person in the U.S. military had any idea that this was going on, there had been any coordination at all.
DOBBS: Does the Italian report dispute that?
MCINTYRE: Well, we haven't seen the full tex of the Italian report. So far, we haven't found anything that indicates who they say they coordinated with. There have been some broad statements by Italian officials indicating that there was some coordination, some notification, but we haven't seen any evidence of that yet.
DOBBS: Jamie McIntyre, as always, thank you. Jamie McIntyre reporting from the Pentagon.
A new opinion poll out tonight gives President Bush one of his lowest ratings for his administration's handling of post-war Iraq. The CNN-"USA Today"-Gallup poll says 55 percent of voters disapprove of the president's handling, 42 percent approve.
The poll also gives the president more low marks for his efforts on Social Security. Fifty-eight percent disapprove, only 35 percent support the president's calls for reform.
With all of the talk about reforming Social Security and cutting benefits or raising taxes, it turns out that our Social Security system is far less generous than those of other developed countries. According to the OECD, retirees on average receive in this country just 51 percent of our after-tax earnings from Social Security. That's substantially less than the 70 percent average paid out in other developed nations.
At the top of that list, Luxembourg, which pays out 102 percent of after-tax earnings, and close behind Turkey and Greece. Way down at the bottom of the list, in 25th position out of 30 countries surveyed, the United States. But the United Kingdom is below us, at least, 26.
British Prime Minister Tony Blair faces a general election in just three days now. And illegal immigration is a huge issue in this campaign.
Both the ruling Labor Party and the opposition Conservative Party have made illegal immigration and how to stop it one of their top priorities and principle issues of the election.
Senior political analyst Bill Schneider reports now from Basildon, England.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST (voice-over): Here in Britain the issue of illegal immigration used to be like the elephant in the room that everyone pretended not to notice. Until this year.
MICHAEL HOWARD, CONSERVATIVE PARTY LEADER: For far too long immigration has been a taboo subject. However bad the situation has been, we've not been allowed to talk about it. Well, I am not going to let the government sweep this under the carpet any more.
SCHNEIDER: Conservative Party leader Michael Howard hopes to replace Tony Blair as prime minister in Thursday's election. Polls and pundits say he hasn't got a chance. But polls also show deep public concern about rapidly rising numbers of immigrants to Britain, legal and illegal.
GERALD HOWARTH, CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE: Immigration is trampled (ph) under this government. We now have 150,000 people a year coming legally into this country. And then you have untold numbers of illegal immigrants.
SCHNEIDER: The conservatives' campaign slogan is, "Are you thinking what we're thinking?" What does it mean?
DAVID DAVIS, CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE: It means exactly that. I mean, there are plenty of people out there about every issue I talked about. And we say to them, you know, "Do you agree with us?"
SCHNEIDER: The conservatives try to preempt any charge of racism by asserting it's not racist to impose limits on immigration. We went out with a conservative candidate in Basildon, east of London, and watched him campaign in a quintessentially middle class area.
(on camera): Basildon is a bellwether. It's voted for the winning party for 40 years. If illegal immigration is an issue in this election, it has to be an issue here.
AARON POWELL, CONSERVATIVE CANDIDATE: I have lost count of the number of time I have knocked on somebody's door and they said to me, "I'm not racist, but..."
SCHNEIDER: But what?
TOM FISHER, BASILDON VOTER: The problem we've got is (INAUDIBLE) unscrupulous people are coming to this country.
SCHNEIDER: And taking advantage of the system.
POWEL: Then that breeds a sense of injustice.
SCHNEIDER: Which the prime minister does not dispute.
TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Concern over asylum and immigration is not about racism. It is about fairness.
SCHNEIDER: Immigration is a sleeper issue in the British campaign. In towns like Basildon, Blair is hoping it will stay asleep.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SCHNEIDER: An upset victory for the conservatives here in Britain on Thursday, that would be a wakeup call for all the politicians -- Lou.
DOBBS: A wakeup call, Bill. But at the same time, it appears both labor and the Tories are equally focused on it, expressing concern about it. In Basildon, what did you find? What is the degree of concern there amongst the voters? And does anyone expect it to be a driver in the results of this election?
SCHNEIDER: Well, two separate questions. The voters talk about it a great deal. They are concerned about it.
The polls show it isn't a top concern, but there are a lot of people wondering, are the polls really accurate, are the voters somehow inhibited about talking openly about their concern over both immigration, which is high and has risen, and illegal immigration? And no one knows what those numbers are.
Will it drive the campaign? It doesn't appear to yet. But the Labor Party is very, very worried that it is precisely that, a sleeper issue that suddenly will show up on Thursday.
DOBBS: And I have to ask you this, because within your report, and just now talking about illegal immigration and immigration, illegal immigration is obviously a very important issue in this country and the crisis...
SCHNEIDER: Yes.
DOBBS: ... of illegal immigration is intensifying. But it's very clear here, we're talking in the United States about illegal immigration. There seems to be the suggestion, and correct me if I'm wrong, that in the U.K. it's immigration and legal immigration that's a concern there.
SCHNEIDER: That's correct. The level of immigration has risen during the eight years of the labor government under Tony Blair. There's no denying that. Those are the official figures.
The level of illegal immigration no one knows. But people are worried about it, and they believe that there are growing numbers of people who are in this country illegally. So they are both issues here.
DOBBS: Bill Schneider, thank you very much, sir.
Still ahead, this economy does not benefit from illegal immigration. Employers do. Our special report tonight on an industry that benefits immensely from exploiting illegal labor.
And buy American. America's manufacturing base has been so diminished that there is no way we can comply with a proposed law to buy American. That story coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) DOBBS: A new group of volunteers is planning to help the Minuteman Project monitor our border with Mexico. The Friends of the Border Patrol will be deployed in California this coming August. The group's leader, Andy Ramirez, says citizens volunteering to defend our nation in time of war and crisis is a time-honored tradition. So far, 300 people have volunteered for the project, including former law enforcement and military officials.
The Minuteman Project, which attracted thousands of volunteers, ended over the weekend. The group said the month-long project helped apprehend 335 illegal aliens. That is despite intense criticism of the group, even from President Bush, who called the minutemen vigilantes. Even "The New York Times" this weekend ran what appeared to be a begrudging article about the success of the Minuteman Project.
A new study out today highlights the rising number of Hispanic workers in this country. Many of those new workers are, of course, illegal, illegal aliens who are displacing American workers and bringing wages for working U.S. citizens down.
Kitty Pilgrim has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Plenty of Americans want to work in the construction industry. But new immigrant workers snapped up about half the new jobs last year. And the Pew Hispanic Center says 70 percent of immigrants from Latin America are illegal.
The trend can be seen all over the economy in a range of jobs: plaster workers, hotel workers, service jobs in hotels and restaurants, hospital workers.
RAKESH KOCHHAR, PEW HISPANIC CENTER: What we found in the last year is that out of the 2.5 million jobs created in the economy, one million went to Latino workers, almost all of whom were recently- arrived immigrants.
PILGRIM: Newly-arrived immigrants are not just staying on the border. States showing the largest growth in immigrant population in the last four years, Tennessee, Alaska, Georgia, North Carolina, Washington, and Maryland. Legal or not, employers are hiring them. And wages are falling as new immigrants are willing to work for less.
The Pew Hispanic study found those who lose out the most are legal American-born Latinos. American Hispanic workers lost 44,000 jobs in laundry services and housework, and recent immigrants picked up nearly all of those jobs.
DANIEL GRISWOLD, CATO INSTITUTE: It confirms a lot of things that we already knew. One, that Hispanics who come here as immigrants are competing most directly with other recent Hispanic immigrants. Secondly, that immigrants are moving beyond traditional urban centers and out more into the countryside or suburban areas. PILGRIM: New immigrants are taking any work they can get and getting it in disproportionate numbers. Forty percent of new jobs went to newly-arrived Latino workers, even though they make up only 15 percent of the work force.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PILGRIM: Now, the numbers from the Pew Center point out what many Americans have known intuitively for years, the recent wave of immigrant has made finding a job in certain industries harder to do and the wages in those industries, Lou, a lot harder to live on.
DOBBS: Now, the Pew study did not break out numbers in terms of illegal and legal immigrants.
PILGRIM: That's right. But when pressed, they said that they estimate from other studies about 70 percent of the Latino immigrants are illegal.
DOBBS: Why would they not put that bold faced straightforwardly in front of the readers of that study, those that they are trying to communicate?
PILGRIM: Yes. It was enigmatic why they didn't break it out into two different groups. But -- but when pressed, they did come up with that.
DOBBS: And it's enigmatic why any organization that has "Pew Hispanic Center" with the word "Hispanic," why it would not take great pains to differentiate the interest of illegal immigrants and those who are legal and who are embraced in this country.
PILGRIM: Particularly when the Hispanic population is the population that's being hurt. The legal Hispanic population is being hurt by this wave of illegal immigration.
DOBBS: And yet Hispanic activists, open border activists in this country, will try to claim some sort of basic ownership of Hispanic values when talking about illegal immigration. And they seem to be absolutely disdainful of the true interest of Hispanic-American workers in this country. It's mind-boggling.
PILGRIM: It certainly is. And -- but one thing is clear about this. Hispanics are being hurt, legal Hispanics are being hurt by this.
DOBBS: And nationally, wages are estimated to be somewhere around $150 billion, working wages in this country for U.S. citizens, $150 billion, and depressed wages a year. That, in addition to all of the other burdens, has obviously a tremendous impact on the economy. Not to mention society and our culture.
Kitty Pilgrim, thank you very much for the report.
One American industry that benefits greatly, perhaps more than any other, in fact, from the millions of illegal aliens in this country is agriculture. More than half of all of the farm workers in this country are illegal aliens working for low, exploitive wages.
Casey Wian reports from Santa Paula, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Hundreds of thousands of farm workers in this country are illegal aliens. Growers know it, so does the government. It's a business grown dependent on lawbreakers and accomplices with little interference from authorities.
Growers hire middlemen harvesting companies or farm labor contractors who in turn hire the workers. This contractor who spoke on condition we conceal his identity says illegal aliens are often the only people willing to endure the physical demands and seasonal nature of farm labor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're forced to hire, you know, whoever is out there. And those type of workers are workers that are coming across the border, whether that is legal or otherwise. We're in kind of a catch-22 situation where if we don't come up with laborers we are just not going to be able to harvest the fruit
WIAN: Most harvesting companies require immigration documents from their workers. But the only real requirement is that documents can't be obvious frauds.
(on camera): The Labor Department estimates about half of the nation's farm workers are illegal aliens. Here in Ventura County, California, the number is much higher, about 80 percent. And farm labor contractors say they could double the wages they pay and still not attract enough legal workers.
(voice-over): Workers here average $8 to $9 an hour depending on the crop. The most productive can make twice that. But only for a few weeks at a time.
LANCE COMPA, LABOR LAW PROFESSOR, CORNELL UNIVERSITY: The hourly wage for a lot of farm workers isn't that bad, you know. I think this idea that growers are getting rich off exploiting low wages, there is a lot of exploitation, but it's not so much wages.
WIAN: Compa says California is one of only a handful of states that recognize farm worker unions. And even the largest of those say the beneficiary of illegal alien labor is not big agriculture but U.S. consumers. The average American spends just $7 a week on fresh produce.
ARTURO RODRIGUEZ, PRESIDENT, UNITED FARM WORKERS: Consumers obviously want the best food that they can, the best produced food that they can possibly get, at the best price that they can receive. And so those pressures are always on the agricultural industry, as well as the farm labor force.
WIAN: Other pressures include increased competition from Chinese and South American produce imports, harvested where wages and labor conditions are much worse. Casey Wian, CNN, Santa Paula, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: And on the subject of illegal immigration and border security, tonight the Mexican government is taking on one of our guests who appeared on this broadcast almost three weeks ago. Peter Gadiel, the president of the 9/11 Families for a Secure America was here as our guest to discuss his support for the Real I.D. Act, which is designed, of course, in part to keep drivers' licenses out of the hands of illegal aliens.
While he was here, Mr. Gadtiel showed us just how easily it is to obtain a Mexican I.D. card that many illegals are using to obtain drivers' licenses in some states. And he showed us his, his phony matricula consular.
Mr. Gadiel's appearance here prompted a sharply-worded letter from Mexico's counsel general. That leader asked Gadiel to surrender his matricula consular card, saying in part, "Our attorneys are currently exploring all legal avenues on this matter to determine responsibilities in the purchase and use of a forged Mexican government-issued I.D."
Peter Gadiel, for his part, says he is amazed by the letter from the Mexican government and says he has done nothing illegal. He will be here to talk about this astonishing development this coming Thursday. And we have yet to hear from the Mexican government as to how many letters of complaint they have sent to illegal aliens using matricula consulars as -- and other forged documents in this country to obtain jobs and entry to this country.
We'll continue to explore that with the Mexican government here.
That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight. Do you believe the Bush administration will ever get serious about border security, yes or no? Cast your vote, loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up tonight.
Next here, how some foreign manufacturers are getting away with labeling their products "Made in America." It's a good thing, too. We'll explain why. Our special report on that is next.
And then, new hope for the Real I.D. Act. Just weeks after it appeared stalled, perhaps dead. One sponsor of the legislation will tell us how it survived and its prospects now on Capitol Hill.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Congress appears near an agreement on the $82 billion emergency spending bill for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. That measure also includes now the Real I.D. Act, which would, among other things, make it tougher for illegal aliens to get drivers' licenses and reform our asylum laws. My guest tonight is one of the co-sponsors of the Real I.D. Act. Congressman Ed Royce joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.
Congressman, good to have you with us. Are you confident tonight that this is going to make it into law?
REP. ED ROYCE (R), CALIFORNIA: We are confident now that the Senate is -- has concurred with the House position. It looks as though the Real I.D. Act will be -- will be on the president's desk probably within a week. And it's lucky that we're enacting it.
DOBBS: All right. Explain that, if you will.
ROYCE: I chair the International Terrorism and Nonproliferation Subcommittee. And we have a very great concern over the communications that al-Zarqawi has had, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed also, that those in al Qaeda have had with their lieutenants, press accounts about the desire to bring people in through the southern border. And the Real I.D. Act will do a great deal to help secure that border.
DOBBS: Are these threats and other intelligence, have they been helpful and persuasive among some recalcitrant senators -- there's no other way to say it -- in attaching this legislation to the supplemental, must-pass legislation as was promised originally to Congressman Sensenbrenner?
ROYCE: Absolutely, because it's the 9/11 Commission that has told us that these four provisions must be put into law in order to make certain that another 9/11 doesn't occur in the United States. But I'll just share with you that when I was down on the southern border for a press conference with Chairman Sensenbrenner and several of my colleagues, I talked with a border security agent there who had intercepted an individual originally from (INAUDIBLE), who had been trained in jihad in Afghanistan. He had caught this individual trying to come over the border. And from what we have seen, and accounts, and commentary by our FBI director, Director Mueller, about the incidents of people changing their names from an Arabic to Hispanic surname and then coming over the border, this represents a very real concern for us right now.
DOBBS: The idea of the visa waiver program, you are also concerned about that and specifically with Mexico and Brazil?
ROYCE: Absolutely. There is an area in southern Brazil where Hezbollah and Hamas have long had operations and the triborder region down there in southern Brazil. And as a consequence of that activity, and as a result of this new visa waiver program between Mexico and Brazil, we have seen a tremendous surge in illegal immigration from Brazil over our southern border, over 8,000 incidences last year.
Monitoring this surge and seeing that a number of it involves people from countries of concern, or countries that had traditionally sponsored terrorism should give great pause to our policy makers. And this is another reason why the enactment of the Real I.D. Act is so important. DOBBS: Just to reinforce what -- your point on Brazil. They are now -- the illegal aliens from Brazil are now the fourth largest group of those crossing our borders illegally.
The idea that border security is in such terrible condition -- you were mentioning smugglers, (INAUDIBLE), so-called, when you appeared with Congressman James Sensenbrenner. The number of people crossing our borders, estimates run as high as 3 million last year. Bear Stearns puts the number of illegal aliens in this country as high as 20 million. That would be for those who are counting, two-thirds the population of Canada. It's extraordinary.
Is there any hope in your mind that we're going to see people get serious, first of all, about border security, particularly this administration, since it is in power?
ROYCE: Well, the Real I.D. Act is the first step, and the administration has indicated it will sign that.
But then we have to move toward interior enforcement. And as you know, the administration has yet to see the light in terms of supporting the type of interior enforcement we would like to see have.
Lastly, I just mention that in some counties around the United States, like Orange County, California, my county, where Sheriff Carona is now developing a program, they are targeting criminal aliens and putting together a special program that will allow access to records, to federal databases, so that those who commit crimes in the United States can be checked, if they are in those databases. They can partner up with federal immigration authorities, and we can have them deported.
This represents a big step forward. And we're crafting legislation right now to try to expand that program beyond these few counties in Florida and California nationwide.
DOBBS: Well, and the end of these sanctuary laws, so-called, couldn't come too soon to provide for the national security.
Congressman Royce, we thank you very much for being here. Come back soon.
ROYCE: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Coming up next here, why a proposed "buy American" law -- would-be law for transportation equipment, might be just simply impossible to comply with should it become law.
And North Korea's nuclear and missile threat. I'll be talking with a former top State Department official, who says North Korea is simply insulting our president.
And later, she's not usually one to steal the show, but the first lady did just that over the weekend. We'll have her hilarious roast of her husband. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: A new bill passed by the House of Representatives calls for 60 percent of all transportation equipment to be made in the USA. The Senate has yet to take up the legislation, but critics are saying our diminished manufacturing base is now so small that that bill, should it become law, would be impossible to comply with. Lisa Sylvester has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Lenora Talley has worked as a welder for the Gillig Corporation for three years, building transit buses. But she worries foreign competition, which has been eroding the U.S. manufacturing base, may one day cost her her job.
LENORE TALLEY, WELDER, GILLIG CORPORATION: It makes me feel angry, mad, because they are taking the jobs from us and giving them to somebody else.
SYLVESTER: Gillig, which began building buggies and carriages in 1890 is one of only two remaining American owned and operated bus manufacturers in the United States. Gillig's future now rests on a "buy American" amendment to a congressional bill authorizing future transportation projects.
The amendment would strengthen the existing law that requires 60 percent domestic content for transit contracts. Supporters say the law has been watered down by exemptions and waivers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You could have a machine that has a thousand parts. Every one of those could be made in China, but as long as you assemble it in a garage in the United States, it has got the stamp of made in the USA.
SYLVESTER: Foreign competitors also make a range of other transit equipment, including subway card readers. Foreign companies are often subsidized by their governments, creating an unlevel playing field for U.S. companies.
DENNIS HOWARD, PRESIDENT, GILLIG CORPORATION: I think American jobs are at issue. I think that the tax dollars should be used to make jobs for Americans versus jobs for foreigners.
SYLVESTER: The House included the "buy American" amendment in its $284 billion version of the transportation bill that passed in the last Congress.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: The Senate has not passed its transportation legislation yet, but senators are being pressured to act soon, because the current extension expires at the end of this month, and the construction season is already under way -- Lou.
DOBBS: And the effect of not meeting that extension deadline? SYLVESTER: Well, one of the things they are looking at is that as we push further and further into the summer months, that it means that it's the status quo, and it means projects are languished, it means that a lot of businesses, for instance, that were relying on these contracts, their future is sort of up in the air right now, Lou.
DOBBS: Is this a wake-up call to any of our lawmakers, Lisa, that the fact that we can't even comply with the 60 percent composition law is a suggestion we have a real fundamental problem here in this country?
SYLVESTER: Well, it certainly is a problem. And one of the things that has been happening over the years is that as more -- as foreign competition has increased, it's better positioned the foreign companies and it's left the American companies behind, which is one of the reasons why we're in this situation today. Those American companies can't compete with the subsidized foreign companies, and then fast forward and you find ourselves in this situation, Lou.
DOBBS: Brilliant policy, over so many years.
Lisa, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester.
Coming up next here, North Korea's bold military test. We'll be joined here by one foreign policy expert who says the test proves North Korea poses a real nuclear threat to the rest of the world.
And then, illegal alien crisis. A new movement to stop one state from giving in-state tuition to illegal aliens and denying in-state tuition to American citizens. I'll be talking with a man leading the movement, next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says North Korea's apparent missile test into the Sea of Japan is nothing less than an insult to President Bush. He says the missile test and the escalating rhetoric of the North Korean regime clearly demonstrate Pyongyang's threat to peace and security worldwide. Mitchell Reiss, vice provost for International Affairs at William and Mary. He served as director for policy planning for Secretary of State Colin Powell. Good to have you with us.
MITCHELL REISS, WILLIAM AND MARY: Thank you. Good to be here.
DOBBS: This -- first, let's start with the language that has been adopted by every news organization and apparently every arm of the government: "an apparent missile test." We don't know for certain that there was a missile test?
REISS: Well, I think it's been pretty clearly shown that it was a short-range missile. It's unclear whether it was a new missile, whether it was a surface-to-ship missile or not, so some of the details are yet unknown but it was -- there's no ambiguity the North did in fact test a short-range missile. DOBBS: With the nonproliferation talks about to commence, is this a clear provocation in your mind on the part of the North Koreans?
REISS: Well, it's actually the latest in a series of provocative actions and statements that they have taken in the last few months, really starting with February 10, where they issued a statement admitting they had a nuclear deterrent. So, it's a continuation of an escalatory pattern that they have shown over the last few months. I'm not sure it's necessarily tied to the MPT Review Conference starting in New York earlier today.
DOBBS: The fact of the matter is that Condoleezza Rice, our secretary of state, said that the United States -- there should be no doubt the United States can deter the aggression of North Korea. Are you as confident?
REISS: Oh, I think that's absolutely right. It's not just the United States, it's our South Korean allies, also, who stand shoulder to shoulder with us on the peninsula. So, there is no doubt that we can deter North Korea from taking provocative action, militarily, against our position in northeast Asia.
DOBBS: The -- while you're confident, the fact of the matter is, the absence of any initiative, at least one that is overt on the part of the Chinese government here, which seems to hold within its political sphere of influence absolute sway over the North Koreans, why have they been so hesitant to deal directly with this issue, deal directly with North Korea?
REISS: That's exactly the right question to ask because China does have the most influence, short of war, over North Korea. They provide upwards of 80 percent of the energy and food assistance that North Korea gets from the outside. The United States has tried to persuade China to ratchet up the pressure on North Korea. The Chinese in turn have tried to persuade the North Koreans the return to Beijing for the six-party talks. So far, they've had no success in doing so. In fact, the North Koreans have behaved in a very insulting manner towards the Chinese, recently declining to host the President's Hu Jintao's visit to Pyongyang.
DOBBS: Would it not be wiser, on the part of the United States government, to make it very clear to the Chinese, given all that is been built on our relationship, principally U.S. capital, that this is a Chinese problem, and that we would expect them, in sharing hegemony, if you will, in the area, because, at least they certainly share it, to deal with North Korean problem and deal with it forthwith?
REISS: Well, I think that has in fact been one of the approaches the United States has pursued for the last four years. We have engaged in long conversations with the Chinese about the threat that North Korea poses, not just to us, but also to China and also to stability and security in northeast Asia. The question is, how much pressure is China willing to bring to bear on North Korea? So far, clearly, the answer is not enough. DOBBS: And, clearly, we need to make the message absolutely blunt, direct, and unequivocal. Mitchell Reiss, we thank you for being here. We'll be discussing this, I'm sure, much more in the weeks ahead, unfortunately. Mitchell Reiss, please join us again soon.
REISS: Thank you very much.
DOBBS: Coming up next at the top of the hour here on CNN, "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Anderson joins us now to tell us what is in store.
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Hey, Lou. Thanks very much.
Tonight on 360, a run away bride and a jilted groom that still wants to walk down the aisle with her. Should Jennifer Wilbanks be prosecuted for lying to police, and should her groom still stand by her side? Everyone seems to have taken sides tonight. We cover all the angles.
Also, Laura Bush letting loose: we're getting up close and personal with the first lady to find out her guilty pleasure and her best punch lines. That and more at the top of the hour. Lou?
DOBBS: She had quite a few of them. Anderson, thank you very much.
Illegal alien crisis. Next I'll be talking with the attorney representing a group of college students who say they should have -- it's unimaginable -- they should have the same rights as illegal aliens in this country.
Also a stand-up lady: the lighter side, as Anderson Cooper just pointed out, the lighter side of Laura Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: George and I are complete opposite. I'm quiet. He's talkative. I'm introverted. He's extroverted. I can pronounce nuclear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: We'll have more of the first lady when we continue. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My guest is taking on a new law in Kansas that allows illegal aliens to attend state universities there is for greatly reduced in-state tuition rates. Kris Kobach's representing 20 students from outside the state of Kansas who are suing the state. They say that law is nothing short of unconstitutional. Kris Kobach, a law professor, University of Missouri, former counsel to Attorney General John Ashcroft, joining us from Kansas City. Good to have you with us.
KRIS KOBACH, LAW PROFESSOR, UMKC: Great to be back.
DOBBS: I think most people would be shocked to find that there is actually a law that tries to level the playing field between U.S. citizens and illegal aliens on these issues, particularly in-state tuition.
KOBACH: Yeah, in 1996, Congress predicted that some states might try to do this, that is, give in-state tuition to illegal aliens. And so Congress passed a law, saying no state can give in-state tuition unless they give in-state tuition to all U.S. citizens no matter where they live. And that's the law that we are suing under to get this Kansas statute invalidated.
DOBBS: Let's put this -- the statute just so our viewers can see that understand this is the law of the land. The fact of the matter is, there's a huge liability here if your clients were to win, isn't there?
KOBACH: Potentially, Yes. All of the out of state students in Kansas and there are eight other states doing this, by the way. All of the out of state students are entitled to be attending college at the same reduced rate that the illegal aliens are. Right now we're just suing to invalidate the law and get our plaintiffs a refund of the tuition that they've -- the extra tuition they've been paying.
DOBBS: Mat All (ph), who's a chief counselor for Governor Kathie Sebelius of Kansas, said the state would defend the law if challenged. Saying, federal preventing states from providing it, but the have a number of ways of saying that it is a key wording difference, that would make the law, in his judgment, stand up to scrutiny. Because it's just an immigrant tuition law.
KOBACH: Well, the other side is trying some very clever legalese to try that one term doesn't fit within this law. They have a tough job, because Congress predicted exactly this thing. Plus, we're also suing under the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution. Right now U.S. citizens are being discriminated against when it comes to the availability of in-state tuition vs. illegal aliens. And there's a clear constitutional violation there, as well. Not to mention the fact that this law encourages illegal aliens to violate the immigration law of the United States by rewarding illegal behavior.
DOBBS: Frankly, to me, to be straightforward about it. I guess my views on this are fairly well known. The idea that one would give illegal aliens the rights superior to those of U.S. citizens or benefits is unconsciousable.
KOBACH: Well, there's one aspect of this law, Lou, I think you'll find really interesting. The law expressly says, that if you are a foreigner here legally attending the University in Kansas, you have to pay out of state tuition. They only reward illegal aliens with instate tuition. It's crazy.
DOBBS: This is a state -- a spokeswoman, Nicole Curken (ph), representing Governor Sebelius said.
The governor supported this bill over the past two years, has been outspoken about her belief the doors of our college and universities be open to all our high school graduates, referring to Kansas public school graduates, whether legal or illegal.
KOBACH: Well, I think it's kind of interesting. The same people who are defending this law, are the same people who say we noticed to have illegal immigration in the United States, because these are low skilled workers who are -- and they are the only people who will take the jobs. Yet, in the same breath they say, but we need to give them a college education at taxpayer expense. It just doesn't fit.
DOBBS: All of this a part -- a tremendous canvas of rationalization that has been built up in this country over the last two decade on illegal immigration, that is now, at least, in part because of your work, Chris, and others beginning to come unraveled and people beginning to see the clear direct truth of what's happening.
KOBACH: Well, I think in this case people see the injustice of it all. When a U.S. citizen is taxed to subsidize the education of someone who is violating federal criminal law.
DOBBS: Kris Kobach, thank you very much.
KOBACH: My pleasure.
DOBBS: We'll be back with you soon.
KOBACH: OK.
DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll. Do you believe the Bush administration will ever get serious about border security, yes or no? Give us your vote please, yes or no at loudobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up in just a few minutes.
Next a preview of what is ahead tomorrow. And Laura Bush proves she is a stand-up first lady. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Well first the results of our poll tonight, overwhelming you might say. Ninety-eight percent of you say the Bush administration will never get serious about border security, 2 percent remain hopeful.
President Bush was the guest of honor at the White House correspondents dinner this past Saturday. But it was first lady Laura Bush who had the guests doubled over in laughter. The butt of most of the jokes, her husband.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LAURA BUSH, FIRST LADY: I am married to the president of the United States, and here's our typical evening. 9:00 Mr. Excitement is sound asleep, and I'm watching "Desperate House Wives" -- with Lynne Cheney. Ladies and gentlemen, I am a desperate housewife. I mean, if those women on that show think they're desperate, they ought to be with George.
One night -- one night after George went to bed, Lynne Cheney, Condi Rice, Karen Hughes and I went to Chip n' Dales. I wouldn't even mention it, except Ruth Ginsberg and Sandra Day O'Connor saw us there. I won't tell you what happened, but Lynn's Secret Service code name is now dollar bill.
George always says he's delighted to come to these press dinners -- baloney. He's usually in bed by now. I'm not kidding. I said to him the other day, George, if you really want to end tyranny in the world, you're going to have to stay up later.
The amazing thing, however, is that George and I were just meant to be. I was a librarian who spent 12 hours a day in the library. Yet somehow I met George. People often wonder what my mother-in-law is really like. People think she's a sweet grand motherly Aunt B. type. She's actually more like Don Corleone.
I'm proud of George. He's learned a lot about ranching, since that first year when he tried to milk the horse. What's worse it was a male horse. George's answer to any problem at the ranch is to cut it down with a chain saw. Which I think is why he and Cheney and Rumsfeld get along so well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: The president today said simply his wife had a couple of funny lines and got carried away, referring to her as Laura "Leno" Bush. Whatever, he should start getting his hands on those writers of hers.
Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow. "Broken Borders," how the construction industry is benefiting from the illegal labor of hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens in this country.
And the senator leading the investigation into the U.N. Oil-for- Food scandal will be our special guest.
Tomorrow, please join us. For all of us here, good night from New York.
"ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now -- Anderson.
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