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Lou Dobbs Tonight
Military Under Stress; Iran's Nuclear Challenge; Nightmare Scenario
Aired May 03, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, our military is under stress. This country's top general declares the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could limit our ability to fight other conflicts. Our guest tonight, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Also ahead on LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, is the United Nations oil-for-food investigation simply a cover-up? Our guest is a U.S. senator who is demanding answers.
And exporting America, why American manufacturers want the federal government to allow hundreds of thousands of foreign workers to enter the United States.
This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Good evening.
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Richard Myers, declared the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have made it more difficult for our military to win other wars. In a report to Congress, General Myers said the strain of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan means other wars, should they occur, would last longer and more American casualties would result.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The report is classified but its conclusions are simply common sense, say Pentagon officials, who argue it's self-evident that with nearly 160,000 U.S. troops tied down in Iraq and Afghanistan another war would be harder to fight.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: The timelines may have to be extended. We may have to use additional resources. But it doesn't matter, because we are going to be successful in the end.
MCINTYRE: In his required annual risk assessment report to Congress, Myers warned the U.S. military could not respond with as much speed and precision to a major new threat, that another war would have significantly extended timelines and run the risk of higher casualties and collateral damage. That sounds different from what Myers has told President Bush; namely, that the war in Iraq is not hamstringing the U.S. military.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And the answer is, no, he doesn't feel we're limited. He feels like we've got plenty of capacity.
MCINTYRE: Myers argues it's not inconsistent to say, while winning a future war may take longer, victory is still certain, even in a major conflict with, say, Korea or Iran.
MYERS: We will be successful and we'll prevail. And there should be no doubt about it. And that's the bottom line.
MCINTYRE: But critics in Congress are already citing Myers' report as one more sign the U.S. military is too small.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: We need to increase the size of our armed forces by probably 15,000 to 25,000 a year for the next several years to make sure that our state of readiness is what it should be to protect the country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: But increasing the size of the U.S. military as casualties continue to mount in Iraq is getting harder by the day. For the past three months, the Army and, to a lesser extent, the Marine Corps, have missed their recruiting goals. And the trend for this month which has just started is already down -- Lou.
DOBBS: With the president's principal chief military adviser making these statements, what is the response on the part of General Myers to what should be done?
MCINTYRE: Well, General Myers is trying to walk a careful line between giving a frank reality check to Congress and making sure that he doesn't signal any potential adversaries of the United States that there's any weakness or resolve on the part of the U.S. military. That's why he makes the point that victory would still be certain but it just might take a little longer.
But the reality here is the solution to all these problems, whether it's the recruiting, the size of the military, the ability to respond to other threats. It all comes back to Iraq.
The only way to really truly solve these problems is to reduce or get the U.S. military presence out of Iraq. And that remains the main focus of the Pentagon. It's a very tough job, though. And if they are not able to have significant troop reduction sometime soon, these strains are only going to get worse.
DOBBS: Well, I don't think there's any question that it is fair to say that General Myers' blunt assessment, in point of fact, significantly strengthened the American arsenal with honesty and truth about the situation.
Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
General Myers' assessment comes at a time of rising tension between the United States and North Korea and, of course, Iran. Iran's foreign minister today declared his country is determined to press forward with its nuclear program, including processes that could be used to develop nuclear weapons.
Senior United Nations Correspondent Richard Roth with the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The United States demanded Monday at the U.N. nuclear conference that all of Iran's nuclear activities be shut down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We dare not look the other way.
ROTH: But Iran told the NPT review meeting Tuesday, watch us. Foreign minister Kamal Kharazzi blasted what he called an exclusive club of powers who want to limit technology development under the pretext of curbing the spread of nonproliferation. He minced no words on Iran's plans.
KAMAL KHARAZZI, IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Iran, for its part, is determined to pursue all legal areas of nuclear technology, including enrichment exclusively for peaceful purposes.
ROTH: But enrichment of uranium could also lead to the manufacture of nuclear bombs.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are completely supportive of what the EU3 is trying to achieve. And what they're trying to achieve is very simple. And that is that there needs to be a very clear commitment from the Iranians to live up to their international obligations, not to seek a nuclear weapon undercover of civilian nuclear power.
ROTH: Iran didn't give a timetable for resuming nuclear work, currently suspended while Tehran negotiated over incentives offered to stop production with three European countries, including Germany.
PAUL LEVENTHAL, NUCLEAR CONTROL INSTITUTE: Time is on Iran's side. The longer this negotiation is stretched out, the more likely they are able to develop the enrichment capacity and capability necessary to produce high enriched uranium.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: And late today, Condoleezza Rice saying the Iranians should take advantage of the opportunity being given them, economic incentives from the European Union. And she declined to give any timetable for referring the Iranian missile challenge to the Security Council for potential action on sanctions -- Lou.
DOBBS: Richard, thank you. Richard Roth from the U.N. The most serious nuclear threat to this country today probably originates with radical Islamist terrorists in possession of nuclear weapons. Today, "The Washington Post" reported the federal government is simply failing to prepare emergency workers and the American public for a possible nuclear terrorist attack.
Kimberly Osias reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We've all seen it on the silver screen...
BEN AFFLECK, "THE SUM OF ALL FEARS": The bomb is in place.
OSIAS: ... people screaming, scrambling for safety in the aftermath of a nuclear explosion. But that's Hollywood's rendition in "The Sum of All Fears." This could be reality.
AFFLECK: Your family and 25 million other families will be dead.
OSIAS: Just what would happen if a nuclear bomb went off near your home town? Even though the chance of an attack is considered slim, is the government doing enough?
RICHARD FALKENRATH, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: This is the most dangerous weapon ever invented. And there is no good consequence management strategy for it. There are only bad ones that we are trying to do as well as we can, but the government is not going to do them particularly well given how hard a task this is.
OSIAS: One thing the government has done is put information out on ready.gov, the Internet site designed by the Department of Homeland Security. The site claims, in the event of a detonation, you should take shelter, gain distance and minimize your exposure time. But some nuclear physicists say that advice is archaic and wrong.
For example, they say you don't want to take shelter at all. You just want to get out of the way.
The question is how to do that. According to the site, it's a bit unclear how to travel. And it mentions nothing about wind direction.
Scientists say a nuclear cloud is shaped much like a cigar, longer than it is wide, and that you want to run perpendicular or to the left or right of the cloud. As far as physical effects, there is heat, pressure and radiation. Experts say with the first two, there is nothing you can do.
FALKENRATH: If you are in the vicinity of the attack you are simply going to die. The radiation, there is something to do, because it will go up in the atmosphere and then drift downwind and spread this radioactive plume.
(END VIDEOTAPE) OSIAS: Although terrorists may well want to obtain nuclear weapons, it's important to reiterate that experts say the likelihood of that is slim. The Department of Homeland Security says ready.gov was never meant to be a comprehensive site but, rather, a way to begin a dialogue. And they say the Web site has been up for two years and is being improved -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kimberly, thank you very much.
In Iraq today, a new step forward for democracy. Iraqi officials swore in the country's first freely-elected government in Baghdad.
The ceremony comes three months after Iraqis voted for a new national assembly. The government faces two principal challenges now, writing a new constitution and ending the insurgency.
Meanwhile, the violence in Iraq continues. American and Iraqi troops today fought with insurgents in the western city of Ramadi. Twelve insurgents and one Iraqi soldier were killed.
Up next here, "Broken Borders." Who is benefiting from the invasion of illegal aliens? An industry that employs 700,000 of them at the expense of U.S. taxpayers and American workers.
And billboard wars in Los Angeles. The escalating battle over whether the City of Angels is American or, as some are insisting, part of Mexico.
Those stories are next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The construction industry in this country is taking full advantage of the seemingly never ending supply of illegal labor. While advocates of open borders and illegal immigration say that these construction jobs are jobs that Americans just won't do or take, this broadcast just found plenty of hardworking American citizens who disagree.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It seems that everywhere a person looks, a building is going up, a house is being built. But underneath all of that activity are some interesting numbers.
The unemployment rate in construction runs about twice as high as the overall economy. This union painter was out of work for three months this year.
MICHAEL SCALA, PAINTER: You can keep going down the hall, oh, yes, something's coming, something's coming. But meanwhile, you see all this construction, all this, you know, work going on. How come we're out? TUCKER: Because there's a stark difference between the wages of legal and unionized workers and illegal workers. The industry average is $19.30 an hour with benefits in commercial construction. In the home building business, where illegal labor is heavily used and skills required low, wages are $10 an hour less with no benefits, as this worker with a green card knows.
GERMAN HERNANDEZ, PAINTER: No, but I know that there's some bosses out there, they don't -- like I say, they don't care about the people, because they know illegals, they try to take advantage. That I know for a fact.
TUCKER: Hispanics are twice as likely to be hurt or killed on the job according to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. That's where the unions see an opening, and that's why many have dropped the provision from their bylaws questioning legal status in an effort to bring them in under the protection of the unions.
ROBERT ROSS, AUTHOR, "SLAVE TO FASHION": The whole meaning of civilization is that you draw a bright line below which you don't consider conditions acceptable or civilized. When we have foreign- born workers being killed on the job at twice the rate in construction of other workers, we've got a big problem. That's not civilization, that's barbarism.
TUCKER: Many contractors agree.
STEVE SANDHERR, ASSOCIATED GEN. CONTRACTORS OF AMERICA: Somebody who pays someone substandard wages and does not offer benefits and does not provide a safe workplace, is -- has got a competive advantage against contractors who are trying to do the right thing. So we don't want those people in our industry. We would rather have more of a level playing field.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: But as long as there are jobs and an ample supply of illegal aliens willing to work for lower wages and no benefits, well, Lou, many contractors just don't see why they should pay more.
DOBBS: Well, the fact is that the United States government, the federal government is not enforcing our immigration laws, not enforcing border security. And, in point of fact, with the encouragement of business associations, including some of the largest, including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, basically supporting illegal immigration and refusing at the same time to acknowledge the people who are hurt.
As the Pew research study -- Hispanic Center Study showed yesterday, it's Hispanic-Americans. It is our new immigrants who are being hurt by illegal immigration. That 12 percent number that you put up for construction, I mean, that's outrageous.
TUCKER: It is outrageous. And the injury rates are outrageous as well. And you're right, Lou. There's a complicity -- or at least appears to be one on the part of the federal government. They let it come in and they let this happen, the exploitation.
DOBBS: Well, there's no question about the complicity. It is clear, it is stark, and it is shameful.
Bill Tucker, thank you for that excellent report.
Border Patrol agents have uncovered a new tactic being used by illegal alien smugglers to move dozens of people into this country at a time. Agents working near the Arizona-California state line, just north of the Mexican border, seized five recreational vehicles. Hiding inside of those vehicles, 109 illegal aliens.
The Border Patrol says the RVs didn't drive the illegal aliens across the border. Instead, the smugglers gave the legal aliens walking directions to those RVs and then told them to wait inside the vehicles. The Border Patrol says once the RVs filled up with illegals, the smugglers then sent a driver to move them deeper into the United States.
A Spanish language television network is posting what many southern California citizens called outrageous billboards in Los Angeles. Those billboards claim the City of Angels is really part of Mexico.
California's Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger says those billboards promote illegal immigration and should be taken down immediately. And one Los Angeles radio station is fighting back.
Casey Wian has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the battle of the billboards, the latest fight over our nation's broken borders. Responding to listener outrage over this Spanish language TV station sign declaring that Los Angeles is part of Mexico, local talk radio station KFI is responding with billboards of its own.
They read, "Just to clarify, you are here, Los Angeles, California, USA. Gracias."
BILL HANDEL, KFI RADIO HOST: Number one is our listeners pay the bills. They are the ones that unfortunately are paying the bills for the illegal alien invasion.
And the other part of it, which I think is particularly difficult to deal with, is the billboard is more true than not. Unfortunately, we believe, and I think it's a fact, that Los Angeles is probably more part of Mexico than it is California. And that hurts. It rubs the salt in the wounds.
WIAN: The controversy is growing. In recent days activists have protested against the Los Angeles-Mexico sign outside KCRA channel 62 studio and gathered to support KFI's rebuttal sign. They included illegal residents from Mexico.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You cannot call me racist because I'm Mexican myself. We just want control.
WIAN: Even Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has demanded channel 62 remove the signs. Parent company Lieberman Broadcasting didn't return our calls. But one executive told CNN affiliate KTLA he's against illegal immigration, adding, "Hispanics living in Los Angeles have a right to a TV station that advertises itself to that market. I don't understand how that promotes illegal immigration."
Perhaps he should take another look at his signs, which display a well-known statue from Mexico City superimposed over the Los Angeles skyline.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Lieberman Broadcasting is familiar with controversy about illegal immigration. It's the same company that airs "Gana la Verde," the reality TV show that offers as its prize legal help for illegal aliens seeking a green card -- Lou.
DOBBS: Are the -- is that program still on the air? That was one of the more enterprising entrepreneurial aspects of illegal immigration.
WIAN: It's one of their highest-rated shows. It's on the air, if you want to catch it, 7:00 Friday evening.
DOBBS: Believe me, I don't. I absolutely don't.
Lieberman, quite an interesting fellow. I mean, this is his -- is incendiary. I don't know whether it encourages illegal immigration or not, but certainly would support Governor Schwarzenegger in that judgment, if that is his.
But it is certainly incendiary. It is provocative, and seemingly unnecessarily so. What is the reasoning on the part of the Lieberman Broadcasting people?
WIAN: Well, they didn't talk to us today. But in the past we have spoken to them. And they're in a ratings battle with two giant Spanish language television networks. They are getting a lot of publicity from this controversy, and it appeals to some people in their audience, these ads -- Lou.
DOBBS: Appeals, and certainly they are getting the attention they would desire. Unfortunately, it is just an absolutely unnecessary insult to all the citizens in southern California who take pride in their citizenship in being in California, not Mexico.
WIAN: And a growing number of those citizens are -- are protesting these signs. There's another protest scheduled for tomorrow -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, it's a -- it's a contest of freedom of expression m this country. A battle between KCRA and KFI. It will be interesting to watch, as I know you will. Thank you for that great report, Casey. Casey Wian from Los Angeles.
Coming up next here, an astonishing development in the exporting of America. American manufacturing companies are now claiming they don't have enough skilled workers. And you won't believe how they want to fill those jobs now.
We'll have that special report for you. You don't want to miss that.
And the Senate investigation into the U.N. oil-for-food scandal, why the head of that investigation says the U.N. is failing to cooperate, and why the lead investigator has resigned. Why the United States Senate now wants the United Nations to come clean.
Stay with us. That story is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, a group of American manufacturers are saying there aren't enough skilled workers in this country to fill the jobs that they have. Now that group of manufacturers is asking the federal government to help them out, to help them hire more highly skilled workers, you guessed it, from cheap overseas labor markets.
Lisa Sylvester has the story
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The National Association of Manufacturers wants to lift the cap on the H1B visa program to bring in as many foreign engineers and scientists as U.S. companies could hire. Business groups say there are not enough U.S. high-tech workers with critical skills to fill the need in the United States.
PHYLLIS EISEN, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MANUFACTURERS: You have 130-some odd million in the work force. And there's maybe 100,000, 50,000 to 100,000 of these visas left out. So it's hardly a blip on the statistical screen. And it certainly is not filling that innovation gap that we have that will continue to grow here.
SYLVESTER: But critics say importing foreign workers will only further undermine the country's diminished industrial base. The problem is a lack of homegrown talent.
Bright American students have shyed away from manufacturing, even in the high-tech industries because of the stigma. Off-shoring of jobs have made the a career choice even less appealing. And the country's weakened unions mean fewer apprenticeship programs to train newcomers.
The result? Eighty percent of U.S. manufacturers now report a moderate to serious shortage of highly-trained production workers. Oberg Industries is among the companies being impacted. GREG CHAMBERS, OBERG INDUSTRIES: We're a high precision industry. That's our niche market. So it's not -- it's not just enough to have a person be ale to run a machine. They have to run a machine at a certain speed. And we hold tolerances down a millionth of an inch. So you can't teach that overnight.
SYLVESTER: Oberg has 65 apprentices, up from 34 last year. Among them is James Mayoric.
JAMES MAYORIC, APPRENTICE, OBERG INDUSTRIES: It's great that we're able to provide so many services for our area and keep the business around, because it's important that we keep enough business in the states so we keep our area growing and keep people here.
SYLVESTER: Oberg's philosophy? The company needs to invest in its own people to stay competitive.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Bill Gates is among those advocating a no limit H1B visa program. But the AFL-CIO says that will do nothing to help train American workers. The union says the H1B program should be truly temporarily, limited to one non-renewable three-year term, and the rules should be written in a way to minimize the impact to American workers -- Lou.
DOBBS: The H1B, Lisa, the L1 visas, as we've reported here, consistently and frequently are not being enforced in terms of those who overstay them. The fact is that Congress took the initiative to reduce the number of those. And the idea that the National Association of Manufacturers or any other organization could suggest there's a shortage of skilled labor in this country when we have seen 2.5 million manufacturing jobs obliterated in the last five years is remarkable by any standard, don't you think?
SYLVESTER: Well, one of the things that they say is that the H1B program is ripe for fraud and that they have seen cases time and time again with people, as you mentioned, overstaying their visas. One of the clarifications that they're trying to distinguish here is the difference between traditional manufacturing jobs and the high tech jobs. But even with the high tech jobs, Lou, as you mentioned, there are so many workers in Seattle and different parts of the country, that those folks are still looking for work -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, as you say, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
Tonight, one Democratic congressman has released Labor Department reports that he says the White House tried to suppress for months. Congressman Sander Levin says those reports detail labor violations in five countries that the United States has signed the Central American Free Trade Agreement with.
Congressman Levin cited a number of abuses, including those countries' refusal to allow their workers to associate and to organize. Congressman Levin will join us here tonight for more on what he discovered in those suppressed reports from the Labor Department.
Coming up next, I'll be talking with a senator who is leading the investigation into the U.N. oil-for-food scandal who now says it's important to hear from two investigators who have resigned from that investigation.
Also ahead, the ranking Democrat on the Armed Services Committee will be here to tell us why he says the White House isn't addressing adequately the threat from North Korea.
And what takes 25 slices of cheese, a head of lettuce and three tomatoes to build? We'll tell you when we continue.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New developments tonight in the oil-for-food scandal at the United Nations. A leading U.S. senator is now demanding the United Nations allow two former oil-for-food investigators to give testimony to his committee. Senator Norm Coleman says only full and open disclosure will uncover the truth at the United Nations. But the chairman of the U.N. investigation into that scandal, Paul Volcker, is refusing to allow those former investigators to give their testimony.
Senator Coleman joins us tonight. He's chairman of the Senate's Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations.
Senator, the two people, including the lead on that investigation, a former FBI agent, why in the world would Paul Volcker want to deny you the opportunity to have their testimony?
SEN. NORM COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA: I think Paul Volcker is making a big mistake when he asserts a claim of diplomatic immunity for two investigators who resigned on principle. The original report was that -- from the commission was that they resigned because their work was done. And then they came back said no, they resigned on principle, concerned about the commission's soft-pedalling the reports involving Kofi Annan's relationship with his son, Kojo, and Kojo's relationship with Cotecna firm that got a big contract from the U.N.
The bottom line is, you now have a pall cast over the investigation. That can easily be lifted by simply giving us access to these individuals, letting them comply with the subpoena that will be issued. We will be subpoenaing them by the end of this week, seeking to sit down with them, and I would -- also, they worked with Paul Volcker, but Kofi Annan, the secretary-general, has the ability to waive any claim of diplomatic immunity. They should waive that claim. We'll deal with any issues of confidentiality. We just want to get to the bottom, has there been a soft-pedaling of the involvement of Kofi dealing with his son Kojo? What do these investigators have to say that's got to be dealt with?
DOBBS: Well, Robert Parton and Miranda Duncan, both in this investigation have resigned apparently as a matter of principle. It's important to understand why something in this important -- a $64 billion scandal, we might point out -- why they did so, what the issues were. And what you certainly -- your committee, which is doing the important work of investigating this entire matter from the perspective of the United States. The idea that the United Nations under the leadership of Kofi Annan putting Zimbabwe on the Human Rights Commission, the sex scandals with the United Nations, a list of -- at the best characterization would be horrible incidents over the past five or six years.
You've called for his resignation. Have you seen anything in the conduct of this secretary-general that would change your mind to this point?
COLEMAN: No, Lou. And by the way, I really believe that the U.N., we can work with the U.N. They can be a credible partner. But they got to clean up their act. History, oil-for-food, and the lapse of management, the fraud, Benon Sevan, head of the oil-for-food program, appointed by Kofi, on the take, being bribed by Saddam Hussein. Kofi's chief of staff destroying three year's worth of documents. Relationship between Kojo and Cotecna. That's the past -- Zimbabwe on the Human Rights Commission just the other day. By the way, Lou, if that's not a justification there for getting John Bolton to be our U.N. ambassador, get somebody with the strength and the ability to effect reform, an organization that surely needs it, I don't know what is. You have got Sudan that is committing genocide serving on the U.N. Human Rights Commission. The U.N. needs reform. We've got to deal with oil-for-food. More credibility, more transparency, and then we need a strong voice like John Bolton to serve as U.S. ambassador.
DOBBS: One last question, Senator, and that is the inference that has been drawn from many quarters that you know, that there are tapes from the part of Mr. Parton and his investigative team. Any substance to that?
COLEMAN: At this point, we're looking to speak to Mr. Parton. There is a clear concern that there's information out there that challenges the credibility of some things in the Volcker report. The best thing that Paul Volcker can do, the best thing Kofi Annan can do is give Congress access to these investigators. Get rid of any claims of immunity. And this -- sunlight is the best disinfectant, Lou, and the U.N. needs a lot more sunlight today than they are certainly giving access to.
DOBBS: And some would argue a lot more disinfectant of all kinds. Your subpoenas go out this Thursday, is that correct, Senator?
COLEMAN: That's correct.
DOBBS: And if there's a contest over the issue of both the confidentiality agreement signed by both Miranda Duncan and Mr. Parton, if there is an assertion of immunity on the part of Paul Volcker on behalf of the United Nations or the United Nations itself, what happens?
COLEMAN: We'll pursue this at the highest levels in each and every way we can. I think it would be a terrible mistake for the U.N. to try to assert some diplomatic immunity in this case. If their investigation itself appears to be compromised, then they are in deeper trouble than they were yesterday. So we're going to move forward. Hopefully, the right thing will be done.
DOBBS: Senator Norm Coleman, thanks for being here.
COLEMAN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: President Bush and the Pentagon's top general, General Richard Myers, the president's chief military adviser, tonight appear to be in disagreement about the full readiness of our military to fight any new wars. President Bush answering a question at last Thursday's news conference confidently stated that the military has sufficient troops and equipment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The person I asked that to, the person I asked that to at least, is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, my top military adviser. I said, do you feel that we've limited our capacity to deal with other problems because of our troop levels in Iraq? And the answer is, no, he doesn't feel we're limited. Feels like we got plenty of capacity.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: The timelines may have to be extended. We may have to use additional resources. But it doesn't matter, because we're going to be successful in the end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Joining me now, General David Grange, who has consistently on this broadcast called for an increase in the might of the U.S. military and greater support for our fighting men and women. General Grange, good to have you here.
Do you see an inconsistency between the president and the president's chief military adviser, General Myers?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I can't tell, Lou, if the president was referring to Iraq only or total military requirements for around the world. If it's around the world, I still stand by the fact that we're terribly short on ground troops, especially, to take on the commitments that the U.S. military has.
DOBBS: Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, reporting that General Myers, the president's chief military adviser, is walking a very difficult line here, because he does not want to give any encouragement to those who would be enemies of this country, those who are enemies of this country, and those against whom we're currently engaged.
But at the same time, it would be of greater comfort, would it not, not to deal honestly and openly with the strains that are obvious, that you have analyzed and remarked upon here on this broadcast for the better part of two years. And that is insufficiency in terms of some equipment, insufficiency in the number of men and women we have in uniform, particularly in the United States Army.
Isn't it time for us to address, as you have put it, the disparity between the mission and our capacity?
GRANGE: Absolutely. I mean, you know, the responsibility of the American GI is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. The customer is the American people. The requirement is to give the facts, give the truth to the American people, the customer, without violating anything -- any security issues that may compromise lives in future operations.
But the fact is that there's a lot of commitments that are not going to go away. The size of the force is small for what it's committed to, and the equipment is getting worn out.
DOBBS: The idea that General Myers would have to put forward this assessment to Congress -- in parts of it obviously classified -- but the fact is that even though there's been great discussion about increasing the size of the Army, improving support, weaponry and resources for our military in all forms, from the Reserves to National Guard to active duty forces. How long is it going to take us, in your best judgment, to bring the U.S. military to a state of readiness and full resource to carry out the missions?
GRANGE: The readiness is amazingly high, considering the use -- the -- you can almost argue overuse around the world. And it's that can-do spirit, that, again, the American GIs have. I mean, it's just astonishing. It was when I served. You couldn't believe that -- what you ask these people to do. But for the long-term, you know, we really should have started to regroup years ago, very similar to after the Vietnam War, because the future has a lot of danger in it. And you pay now, or you pay later.
DOBBS: Would you agree with the assessment, because our young warriors are so motivated and so committed, that it almost doubles our duty to provide them the resources that they require?
GRANGE: Exactly, Lou. You know, it's a tough thing to swallow, the amount of money it's going to take to prepare effectively for what is going on now, almost holding actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and possible conflicts in other countries that are very dangerous. And it costs money. People are expensive. Proper equipment and training is expensive, and then investing in some modernization to counter future enemies is expensive. But, again, you have to make that commitment. I believe yesterday, or at least today, in order for us to be ready or we're going to pay terribly.
DOBBS: Perhaps the United States Congress and the administration can benefit by absorbing that same can-do spirit that you're referring to on the part of our men and women in the U.S. military. General David Grange, thank you, sir.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight: do you believe the United States needs to increase the size and strength of our military? Yes or no. Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up in the broadcast.
Up next here, North Korea's nuclear threat: one prominent senator will tell us why he says the White House is failing to address the threat.
Then, reports of numerous labor violations in five countries that the Bush administration wants to sign a free-trade agreement with. I'll be talking with one leading Congressman who has fought for months to have reports that he says were suppressed by the Labor Department, released. We'll be talking about that next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says North Korea's apparent ballistic missile test is simply more evidence that the Bush administration's policy toward Pyongyang is failing. Senator Carl Levin of Michigan is the ranking Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, joining us tonight from Detroit.
Senator, good to have you with us.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Lou, always been -- always good to be with you.
North Korea is obviously one of the most difficult issues confronting the United States government and this administration, as it was the previous administration. Why do you say the Bush policies are failing?
Well, because the evidence is so clear. The North Koreans have now taken that plutonium which was under supervision, under inspection, under safeguards, and now taken those rods out, and they've said that they are now beginning, and have begun, to reprocess plutonium which is the most threatening of the fissile material. It's immediate stuff that's available. They have pulled out of the nonproliferation treaty. They have said they would no longer -- going to be bound by that self-imposed moratorium on the testing of missiles.
I mean, it's a much more dangerous place because this administration -- it's a dangerous place anyway, so there's no doubt about that, and these are bad guys, no doubt about that -- but it's been made worse by the refusal of this administration to talk with the North Koreans. They just simply say in Washington, well, we want to work multilaterally. Of course you want to work multilaterally, but that's no reason not to have discussions with the North Koreans.
DOBBS: At the same time, Senator, you and Senator Clinton have sent a letter to Secretary of State Rice, urging bilateral talks. What has been the response?
LEVIN: We haven't gotten a response, yet. But, what we heard on Sunday from Andy Card was that the administration wants to work with our allies, the South Koreans, the Japanese, work with the Russians and Chinese rather than doing this bilaterally. But, it's not either- or. We can have a common strategy, which we must, with our allies and with the neighbors, but at the same time, if they believe, as they do, that we should also talk directly with the North Koreans, we ought to, seems to me, follow that course as well. And not just simply say, unilaterally, we're not talking to people because we don't like them or don't trust them.
DOBBS: Well, beyond not liking them or trusting them, which I think there's more than ample evidence for that position to be taken on the part of this government and any other...
LEVIN: Of course.
DOBBS: ...the fact is, bilateral relationships, as pursued by Madeleine Albright as Secretary of State, did not succeed with the North Koreans. Most frustrating to those I've talked with, Senator, is China's recalcitrance and reluctance to engage in a way that is, frankly, that suits the United States, but also would be protected -- at least, it seems so -- in controlling, better, North Korea. What is your reaction to those who would suggest that is the proper course?
LEVIN: That is a essential step that China could take. It would be very helpful. By the way, we're urging China to have bilateral discussions directly with the North Koreans. It's kind of inconsistent for us to be urging them to do it and at the same time saying we refuse to do it. Yes, we need the Chinese to be much more actively involved. They've got the leverage, much more than we do, but we also should be willing to follow the advice of people in the neighborhood, including the South Koreans, at least privately, that we should also engage in these discussions as part of a common strategy, and not as an alternative to it.
DOBBS: Senator Levin, we have just, well, actually, about 30 seconds. I need to ask you -- I would like to ask you your reaction to General Myers' statements about the constraint of the U.S. military, given the missions it has and its impact should there be future conflicts. Your thoughts?
LEVIN: He's right, and he's being straightforward and I admire him for saying what is common sensical. When you got as many commitments as we do, in Iraq and in Afghanistan and other places, we're overstretched and we are trying to increase the size of the army by at least 20,000 in the Marines, and I think we're going to succeed even though the administration has not supported us doing so in the Congress.
DOBBS: Senator Carl Levin. Thanks for being here.
LEVIN: Good being with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour here on this network, "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Anderson, now, with a preview. Anderson?
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Yeah, Lou, thanks very much.
Yeah, in about 12 minutes on 360, the man accused of being the BTK serial killer says he is innocent. Tonight, a close look at the case and those hidden clues the killer left behind.
Also ahead tonight, a 360 exclusive: a soldier who admitted he took part in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal is out of jail and back home. Tonight he explains what really happened inside the prison walls.
And, on a far happier note, dolphins who nearly died are sent back into the deep blue sea. We're taking you into the water for the rescue mission that saved their lives. That, a lot more, at the top of the hour, Lou.
DOBBS: Look forward to it, as always. Thank you very much, Anderson.
One report that reveals disturbing news about a trade deal President Bush wants to sign: the details of that report from the Congressman who fought for the release of suppressed reports from the U.S. Labor Department. That story is next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The House and the Senate have today moved closer to approving new rules that would stop illegal aliens and potential terrorists from obtaining driver's licenses in this country. A recommendation in point of fact of the 9/11 Commission. The Real I.D. Act is part of the $82 billion military spending bill for Iraq and Afghanistan. The House votes on the measure Thursday. The Senate will vote when it returns from a week-long recess which they will return on the 6th of May.
Turning now to the debate over free trade. My next guest has accused the Labor Department of suppressing reports on oppressive labor conditions on Central America. Congressman Sander Levin, has now won the release of those reports. He says they show all five CAFTA countries violate international labor laws.
Congressman Levin joins us tonight from Capital. Congressman good to have you with us.
REP. SANDER LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Glad to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: It took you almost a year to get the reports from the Labor Department, why?
LEVIN: They did not like what was in them. These reports confirm what the State Department has been saying, also ILRF (ph) reports that workers in these countries do not have their basic rights, especially those to associate. That has dire consequences for them, for their countries that need a middle class. For our workers that don't want to work in competition with those who are suppressed in their rights, and also for our businesses, they need middle classes to buy their products. So it's a bad deal all around when the rights to associate are snuffed out or aren't granted in these countries.
DOBBS: Senator, let's show our viewers what the Labor Department did say, if we could put up the statement from the Labor Department. "Unlike some people, we just don't put our documents without checking for accuracy and quality first. It was important to communicate directly to the International Labor Rights Funds, the organization doing the study, "concerning the organization's failure to substantially improve its work. Once the department reported the inadequacies to the ILRF, the department was happy to provide the documentation to the congressman.
How long did it take, congressman, or is that just an excuse?
LEVIN: I think it's basically an excuse. Look, it took us a year to get these reports. And I wish that the Labor Department and the administration would focus on the content of these reports and what's in the State Department records and their own reports. That is that these countries fail to provide their workers internationally recognized rights. We're not talking at about U.S. minimum wage. We're talking about the basic rights to associate. And essentially what CAFTA does is set up a double standard. And that is countries enforce your own laws even if they're terrible. And they don't say that about intellectual property or about anything else. So, there's this standard that is bad all around.
DOBBS: CAFTA, does it have the votes to move forward in Congress?
LEVIN: It doesn't today. And I hope that the reports, my making them public, making them forcing them to come forth with these reports will stimulate some debate about this basic issue. That is what is globalization all about? I think it has to be not a race to the bottom, but has to be sharing the benefits of expanded trade. That's what this argument is all about.
DOBBS: It would be nice, wouldn't it, congressman, if the United States were to find some markets to which we could export products and services. Maybe that's the next step in the grand design of free trade as its been practiced for the next 30 years.
Congressman Levin...
LEVIN: I hope so. I hope expanded trade will share benefits widely. That's the only way it's a good deal for us and for other countries.
Absolutely. Congressman, thank you very much for being here. We appreciate it.
LEVIN: Glad to be with you. Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead the results of our poll tonight. A preview of what is ahead here tomorrow. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of our poll tonight, 69 percent of you say the United States needs to increase the size and strength of our military, 31 percent disagree.
Taking a look now at some of "Your Thoughts."
Dennis Maher in Eden, Utah, "Dear Lou, I am having a hard time seeing the difference between coyote illegal immigrant smugglers whom our government hates and the U.S. corporations who hire illegals, who the government loves. Both groups are exploiting illegal immigrants for profit.
Grant Simpson in Phoenix, Arizona, "I find it laughable that so many government officials can say that there are thousands of illegal aliens coming across the border, getting licenses, working in secure positions, and so on. And then say no terrorist are involved, all with a straight face. How could they know that when they don't know who the people are?
Steve Fox in Seymour, Missouri, "We are a nation of laws or so I am told. We spend billions of dollars each year on law enforcement. So when was the last time any employer, anywhere, was arrested, hauled into court and thrown into jail or even fined for hiring illegal immigrants.
Steve, we've been in contact with Immigration and Customs Enforcement which keeps track of such things. ICE says they don't know the exact number of corporations that have been prosecuted. But they say it happens all the time. It's where their companies find. ICE says Wal-Mart was fined is 11 million for hiring illegal aliens. Their subcontractors were recently fined another $4 million.
As always we love hearing "Your Thoughts." Send us those thoughts on LouDobbs.com. Each of you who's e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book "Exporting America. Also if you would like to receive our e-mail news liter sign up at our Web site, LouDobbs.com.
Well, the World's biggest burger can now be found at Denny's Beer Barrel Pub in Clearfield, Pennsylvania. This burger a massive 15 pounds, it is made of 10 and a half pounds, that's 10 and half of ground beef, no quarter pounders here. Twenty-five slices of cheese, a head of lettuce, that's an entire head lettuce, three tomatoes and two whole onions. It has also a cup half of mayonnaise, relish, ketchup and mustard. If a customer eat entire burger in under five hours Denny's Beer Barrel pub picks up the entire $30 tab. Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow.
Thanks for being with us here tonight. We'll have a very special edition of this broadcast. I'll be joined by the legendary Warren Buffet. He will be with us for a rare live television interview, tomorrow here, 6:00 p.m. Eastern. And we hope that you will be with us, because we're going to talk about everything under the son, corporate corruption to radical Islamist terrorism.
Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York.
"ANDERSON COOPER 360 starts right now -- Anderson.
END
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Aired May 3, 2005 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, our military is under stress. This country's top general declares the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could limit our ability to fight other conflicts. Our guest tonight, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Armed Services Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Also ahead on LOU DOBBS TONIGHT, is the United Nations oil-for-food investigation simply a cover-up? Our guest is a U.S. senator who is demanding answers.
And exporting America, why American manufacturers want the federal government to allow hundreds of thousands of foreign workers to enter the United States.
This is LOU DOBBS, for news, debate and opinion, tonight.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DOBBS: Good evening.
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Richard Myers, declared the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have made it more difficult for our military to win other wars. In a report to Congress, General Myers said the strain of fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan means other wars, should they occur, would last longer and more American casualties would result.
Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The report is classified but its conclusions are simply common sense, say Pentagon officials, who argue it's self-evident that with nearly 160,000 U.S. troops tied down in Iraq and Afghanistan another war would be harder to fight.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: The timelines may have to be extended. We may have to use additional resources. But it doesn't matter, because we are going to be successful in the end.
MCINTYRE: In his required annual risk assessment report to Congress, Myers warned the U.S. military could not respond with as much speed and precision to a major new threat, that another war would have significantly extended timelines and run the risk of higher casualties and collateral damage. That sounds different from what Myers has told President Bush; namely, that the war in Iraq is not hamstringing the U.S. military.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And the answer is, no, he doesn't feel we're limited. He feels like we've got plenty of capacity.
MCINTYRE: Myers argues it's not inconsistent to say, while winning a future war may take longer, victory is still certain, even in a major conflict with, say, Korea or Iran.
MYERS: We will be successful and we'll prevail. And there should be no doubt about it. And that's the bottom line.
MCINTYRE: But critics in Congress are already citing Myers' report as one more sign the U.S. military is too small.
REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D), CALIFORNIA: We need to increase the size of our armed forces by probably 15,000 to 25,000 a year for the next several years to make sure that our state of readiness is what it should be to protect the country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: But increasing the size of the U.S. military as casualties continue to mount in Iraq is getting harder by the day. For the past three months, the Army and, to a lesser extent, the Marine Corps, have missed their recruiting goals. And the trend for this month which has just started is already down -- Lou.
DOBBS: With the president's principal chief military adviser making these statements, what is the response on the part of General Myers to what should be done?
MCINTYRE: Well, General Myers is trying to walk a careful line between giving a frank reality check to Congress and making sure that he doesn't signal any potential adversaries of the United States that there's any weakness or resolve on the part of the U.S. military. That's why he makes the point that victory would still be certain but it just might take a little longer.
But the reality here is the solution to all these problems, whether it's the recruiting, the size of the military, the ability to respond to other threats. It all comes back to Iraq.
The only way to really truly solve these problems is to reduce or get the U.S. military presence out of Iraq. And that remains the main focus of the Pentagon. It's a very tough job, though. And if they are not able to have significant troop reduction sometime soon, these strains are only going to get worse.
DOBBS: Well, I don't think there's any question that it is fair to say that General Myers' blunt assessment, in point of fact, significantly strengthened the American arsenal with honesty and truth about the situation.
Jamie, thank you very much. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.
General Myers' assessment comes at a time of rising tension between the United States and North Korea and, of course, Iran. Iran's foreign minister today declared his country is determined to press forward with its nuclear program, including processes that could be used to develop nuclear weapons.
Senior United Nations Correspondent Richard Roth with the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The United States demanded Monday at the U.N. nuclear conference that all of Iran's nuclear activities be shut down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We dare not look the other way.
ROTH: But Iran told the NPT review meeting Tuesday, watch us. Foreign minister Kamal Kharazzi blasted what he called an exclusive club of powers who want to limit technology development under the pretext of curbing the spread of nonproliferation. He minced no words on Iran's plans.
KAMAL KHARAZZI, IRANIAN FOREIGN MINISTER: Iran, for its part, is determined to pursue all legal areas of nuclear technology, including enrichment exclusively for peaceful purposes.
ROTH: But enrichment of uranium could also lead to the manufacture of nuclear bombs.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are completely supportive of what the EU3 is trying to achieve. And what they're trying to achieve is very simple. And that is that there needs to be a very clear commitment from the Iranians to live up to their international obligations, not to seek a nuclear weapon undercover of civilian nuclear power.
ROTH: Iran didn't give a timetable for resuming nuclear work, currently suspended while Tehran negotiated over incentives offered to stop production with three European countries, including Germany.
PAUL LEVENTHAL, NUCLEAR CONTROL INSTITUTE: Time is on Iran's side. The longer this negotiation is stretched out, the more likely they are able to develop the enrichment capacity and capability necessary to produce high enriched uranium.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROTH: And late today, Condoleezza Rice saying the Iranians should take advantage of the opportunity being given them, economic incentives from the European Union. And she declined to give any timetable for referring the Iranian missile challenge to the Security Council for potential action on sanctions -- Lou.
DOBBS: Richard, thank you. Richard Roth from the U.N. The most serious nuclear threat to this country today probably originates with radical Islamist terrorists in possession of nuclear weapons. Today, "The Washington Post" reported the federal government is simply failing to prepare emergency workers and the American public for a possible nuclear terrorist attack.
Kimberly Osias reports from Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We've all seen it on the silver screen...
BEN AFFLECK, "THE SUM OF ALL FEARS": The bomb is in place.
OSIAS: ... people screaming, scrambling for safety in the aftermath of a nuclear explosion. But that's Hollywood's rendition in "The Sum of All Fears." This could be reality.
AFFLECK: Your family and 25 million other families will be dead.
OSIAS: Just what would happen if a nuclear bomb went off near your home town? Even though the chance of an attack is considered slim, is the government doing enough?
RICHARD FALKENRATH, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: This is the most dangerous weapon ever invented. And there is no good consequence management strategy for it. There are only bad ones that we are trying to do as well as we can, but the government is not going to do them particularly well given how hard a task this is.
OSIAS: One thing the government has done is put information out on ready.gov, the Internet site designed by the Department of Homeland Security. The site claims, in the event of a detonation, you should take shelter, gain distance and minimize your exposure time. But some nuclear physicists say that advice is archaic and wrong.
For example, they say you don't want to take shelter at all. You just want to get out of the way.
The question is how to do that. According to the site, it's a bit unclear how to travel. And it mentions nothing about wind direction.
Scientists say a nuclear cloud is shaped much like a cigar, longer than it is wide, and that you want to run perpendicular or to the left or right of the cloud. As far as physical effects, there is heat, pressure and radiation. Experts say with the first two, there is nothing you can do.
FALKENRATH: If you are in the vicinity of the attack you are simply going to die. The radiation, there is something to do, because it will go up in the atmosphere and then drift downwind and spread this radioactive plume.
(END VIDEOTAPE) OSIAS: Although terrorists may well want to obtain nuclear weapons, it's important to reiterate that experts say the likelihood of that is slim. The Department of Homeland Security says ready.gov was never meant to be a comprehensive site but, rather, a way to begin a dialogue. And they say the Web site has been up for two years and is being improved -- Lou.
DOBBS: Kimberly, thank you very much.
In Iraq today, a new step forward for democracy. Iraqi officials swore in the country's first freely-elected government in Baghdad.
The ceremony comes three months after Iraqis voted for a new national assembly. The government faces two principal challenges now, writing a new constitution and ending the insurgency.
Meanwhile, the violence in Iraq continues. American and Iraqi troops today fought with insurgents in the western city of Ramadi. Twelve insurgents and one Iraqi soldier were killed.
Up next here, "Broken Borders." Who is benefiting from the invasion of illegal aliens? An industry that employs 700,000 of them at the expense of U.S. taxpayers and American workers.
And billboard wars in Los Angeles. The escalating battle over whether the City of Angels is American or, as some are insisting, part of Mexico.
Those stories are next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The construction industry in this country is taking full advantage of the seemingly never ending supply of illegal labor. While advocates of open borders and illegal immigration say that these construction jobs are jobs that Americans just won't do or take, this broadcast just found plenty of hardworking American citizens who disagree.
Bill Tucker reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It seems that everywhere a person looks, a building is going up, a house is being built. But underneath all of that activity are some interesting numbers.
The unemployment rate in construction runs about twice as high as the overall economy. This union painter was out of work for three months this year.
MICHAEL SCALA, PAINTER: You can keep going down the hall, oh, yes, something's coming, something's coming. But meanwhile, you see all this construction, all this, you know, work going on. How come we're out? TUCKER: Because there's a stark difference between the wages of legal and unionized workers and illegal workers. The industry average is $19.30 an hour with benefits in commercial construction. In the home building business, where illegal labor is heavily used and skills required low, wages are $10 an hour less with no benefits, as this worker with a green card knows.
GERMAN HERNANDEZ, PAINTER: No, but I know that there's some bosses out there, they don't -- like I say, they don't care about the people, because they know illegals, they try to take advantage. That I know for a fact.
TUCKER: Hispanics are twice as likely to be hurt or killed on the job according to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration. That's where the unions see an opening, and that's why many have dropped the provision from their bylaws questioning legal status in an effort to bring them in under the protection of the unions.
ROBERT ROSS, AUTHOR, "SLAVE TO FASHION": The whole meaning of civilization is that you draw a bright line below which you don't consider conditions acceptable or civilized. When we have foreign- born workers being killed on the job at twice the rate in construction of other workers, we've got a big problem. That's not civilization, that's barbarism.
TUCKER: Many contractors agree.
STEVE SANDHERR, ASSOCIATED GEN. CONTRACTORS OF AMERICA: Somebody who pays someone substandard wages and does not offer benefits and does not provide a safe workplace, is -- has got a competive advantage against contractors who are trying to do the right thing. So we don't want those people in our industry. We would rather have more of a level playing field.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TUCKER: But as long as there are jobs and an ample supply of illegal aliens willing to work for lower wages and no benefits, well, Lou, many contractors just don't see why they should pay more.
DOBBS: Well, the fact is that the United States government, the federal government is not enforcing our immigration laws, not enforcing border security. And, in point of fact, with the encouragement of business associations, including some of the largest, including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, basically supporting illegal immigration and refusing at the same time to acknowledge the people who are hurt.
As the Pew research study -- Hispanic Center Study showed yesterday, it's Hispanic-Americans. It is our new immigrants who are being hurt by illegal immigration. That 12 percent number that you put up for construction, I mean, that's outrageous.
TUCKER: It is outrageous. And the injury rates are outrageous as well. And you're right, Lou. There's a complicity -- or at least appears to be one on the part of the federal government. They let it come in and they let this happen, the exploitation.
DOBBS: Well, there's no question about the complicity. It is clear, it is stark, and it is shameful.
Bill Tucker, thank you for that excellent report.
Border Patrol agents have uncovered a new tactic being used by illegal alien smugglers to move dozens of people into this country at a time. Agents working near the Arizona-California state line, just north of the Mexican border, seized five recreational vehicles. Hiding inside of those vehicles, 109 illegal aliens.
The Border Patrol says the RVs didn't drive the illegal aliens across the border. Instead, the smugglers gave the legal aliens walking directions to those RVs and then told them to wait inside the vehicles. The Border Patrol says once the RVs filled up with illegals, the smugglers then sent a driver to move them deeper into the United States.
A Spanish language television network is posting what many southern California citizens called outrageous billboards in Los Angeles. Those billboards claim the City of Angels is really part of Mexico.
California's Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger says those billboards promote illegal immigration and should be taken down immediately. And one Los Angeles radio station is fighting back.
Casey Wian has the report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CASEY WIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the battle of the billboards, the latest fight over our nation's broken borders. Responding to listener outrage over this Spanish language TV station sign declaring that Los Angeles is part of Mexico, local talk radio station KFI is responding with billboards of its own.
They read, "Just to clarify, you are here, Los Angeles, California, USA. Gracias."
BILL HANDEL, KFI RADIO HOST: Number one is our listeners pay the bills. They are the ones that unfortunately are paying the bills for the illegal alien invasion.
And the other part of it, which I think is particularly difficult to deal with, is the billboard is more true than not. Unfortunately, we believe, and I think it's a fact, that Los Angeles is probably more part of Mexico than it is California. And that hurts. It rubs the salt in the wounds.
WIAN: The controversy is growing. In recent days activists have protested against the Los Angeles-Mexico sign outside KCRA channel 62 studio and gathered to support KFI's rebuttal sign. They included illegal residents from Mexico.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You cannot call me racist because I'm Mexican myself. We just want control.
WIAN: Even Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has demanded channel 62 remove the signs. Parent company Lieberman Broadcasting didn't return our calls. But one executive told CNN affiliate KTLA he's against illegal immigration, adding, "Hispanics living in Los Angeles have a right to a TV station that advertises itself to that market. I don't understand how that promotes illegal immigration."
Perhaps he should take another look at his signs, which display a well-known statue from Mexico City superimposed over the Los Angeles skyline.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WIAN: Lieberman Broadcasting is familiar with controversy about illegal immigration. It's the same company that airs "Gana la Verde," the reality TV show that offers as its prize legal help for illegal aliens seeking a green card -- Lou.
DOBBS: Are the -- is that program still on the air? That was one of the more enterprising entrepreneurial aspects of illegal immigration.
WIAN: It's one of their highest-rated shows. It's on the air, if you want to catch it, 7:00 Friday evening.
DOBBS: Believe me, I don't. I absolutely don't.
Lieberman, quite an interesting fellow. I mean, this is his -- is incendiary. I don't know whether it encourages illegal immigration or not, but certainly would support Governor Schwarzenegger in that judgment, if that is his.
But it is certainly incendiary. It is provocative, and seemingly unnecessarily so. What is the reasoning on the part of the Lieberman Broadcasting people?
WIAN: Well, they didn't talk to us today. But in the past we have spoken to them. And they're in a ratings battle with two giant Spanish language television networks. They are getting a lot of publicity from this controversy, and it appeals to some people in their audience, these ads -- Lou.
DOBBS: Appeals, and certainly they are getting the attention they would desire. Unfortunately, it is just an absolutely unnecessary insult to all the citizens in southern California who take pride in their citizenship in being in California, not Mexico.
WIAN: And a growing number of those citizens are -- are protesting these signs. There's another protest scheduled for tomorrow -- Lou.
DOBBS: Well, it's a -- it's a contest of freedom of expression m this country. A battle between KCRA and KFI. It will be interesting to watch, as I know you will. Thank you for that great report, Casey. Casey Wian from Los Angeles.
Coming up next here, an astonishing development in the exporting of America. American manufacturing companies are now claiming they don't have enough skilled workers. And you won't believe how they want to fill those jobs now.
We'll have that special report for you. You don't want to miss that.
And the Senate investigation into the U.N. oil-for-food scandal, why the head of that investigation says the U.N. is failing to cooperate, and why the lead investigator has resigned. Why the United States Senate now wants the United Nations to come clean.
Stay with us. That story is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Tonight, a group of American manufacturers are saying there aren't enough skilled workers in this country to fill the jobs that they have. Now that group of manufacturers is asking the federal government to help them out, to help them hire more highly skilled workers, you guessed it, from cheap overseas labor markets.
Lisa Sylvester has the story
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The National Association of Manufacturers wants to lift the cap on the H1B visa program to bring in as many foreign engineers and scientists as U.S. companies could hire. Business groups say there are not enough U.S. high-tech workers with critical skills to fill the need in the United States.
PHYLLIS EISEN, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF MANUFACTURERS: You have 130-some odd million in the work force. And there's maybe 100,000, 50,000 to 100,000 of these visas left out. So it's hardly a blip on the statistical screen. And it certainly is not filling that innovation gap that we have that will continue to grow here.
SYLVESTER: But critics say importing foreign workers will only further undermine the country's diminished industrial base. The problem is a lack of homegrown talent.
Bright American students have shyed away from manufacturing, even in the high-tech industries because of the stigma. Off-shoring of jobs have made the a career choice even less appealing. And the country's weakened unions mean fewer apprenticeship programs to train newcomers.
The result? Eighty percent of U.S. manufacturers now report a moderate to serious shortage of highly-trained production workers. Oberg Industries is among the companies being impacted. GREG CHAMBERS, OBERG INDUSTRIES: We're a high precision industry. That's our niche market. So it's not -- it's not just enough to have a person be ale to run a machine. They have to run a machine at a certain speed. And we hold tolerances down a millionth of an inch. So you can't teach that overnight.
SYLVESTER: Oberg has 65 apprentices, up from 34 last year. Among them is James Mayoric.
JAMES MAYORIC, APPRENTICE, OBERG INDUSTRIES: It's great that we're able to provide so many services for our area and keep the business around, because it's important that we keep enough business in the states so we keep our area growing and keep people here.
SYLVESTER: Oberg's philosophy? The company needs to invest in its own people to stay competitive.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SYLVESTER: Bill Gates is among those advocating a no limit H1B visa program. But the AFL-CIO says that will do nothing to help train American workers. The union says the H1B program should be truly temporarily, limited to one non-renewable three-year term, and the rules should be written in a way to minimize the impact to American workers -- Lou.
DOBBS: The H1B, Lisa, the L1 visas, as we've reported here, consistently and frequently are not being enforced in terms of those who overstay them. The fact is that Congress took the initiative to reduce the number of those. And the idea that the National Association of Manufacturers or any other organization could suggest there's a shortage of skilled labor in this country when we have seen 2.5 million manufacturing jobs obliterated in the last five years is remarkable by any standard, don't you think?
SYLVESTER: Well, one of the things that they say is that the H1B program is ripe for fraud and that they have seen cases time and time again with people, as you mentioned, overstaying their visas. One of the clarifications that they're trying to distinguish here is the difference between traditional manufacturing jobs and the high tech jobs. But even with the high tech jobs, Lou, as you mentioned, there are so many workers in Seattle and different parts of the country, that those folks are still looking for work -- Lou.
DOBBS: Lisa, as you say, thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.
Tonight, one Democratic congressman has released Labor Department reports that he says the White House tried to suppress for months. Congressman Sander Levin says those reports detail labor violations in five countries that the United States has signed the Central American Free Trade Agreement with.
Congressman Levin cited a number of abuses, including those countries' refusal to allow their workers to associate and to organize. Congressman Levin will join us here tonight for more on what he discovered in those suppressed reports from the Labor Department.
Coming up next, I'll be talking with a senator who is leading the investigation into the U.N. oil-for-food scandal who now says it's important to hear from two investigators who have resigned from that investigation.
Also ahead, the ranking Democrat on the Armed Services Committee will be here to tell us why he says the White House isn't addressing adequately the threat from North Korea.
And what takes 25 slices of cheese, a head of lettuce and three tomatoes to build? We'll tell you when we continue.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: New developments tonight in the oil-for-food scandal at the United Nations. A leading U.S. senator is now demanding the United Nations allow two former oil-for-food investigators to give testimony to his committee. Senator Norm Coleman says only full and open disclosure will uncover the truth at the United Nations. But the chairman of the U.N. investigation into that scandal, Paul Volcker, is refusing to allow those former investigators to give their testimony.
Senator Coleman joins us tonight. He's chairman of the Senate's Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations.
Senator, the two people, including the lead on that investigation, a former FBI agent, why in the world would Paul Volcker want to deny you the opportunity to have their testimony?
SEN. NORM COLEMAN (R), MINNESOTA: I think Paul Volcker is making a big mistake when he asserts a claim of diplomatic immunity for two investigators who resigned on principle. The original report was that -- from the commission was that they resigned because their work was done. And then they came back said no, they resigned on principle, concerned about the commission's soft-pedalling the reports involving Kofi Annan's relationship with his son, Kojo, and Kojo's relationship with Cotecna firm that got a big contract from the U.N.
The bottom line is, you now have a pall cast over the investigation. That can easily be lifted by simply giving us access to these individuals, letting them comply with the subpoena that will be issued. We will be subpoenaing them by the end of this week, seeking to sit down with them, and I would -- also, they worked with Paul Volcker, but Kofi Annan, the secretary-general, has the ability to waive any claim of diplomatic immunity. They should waive that claim. We'll deal with any issues of confidentiality. We just want to get to the bottom, has there been a soft-pedaling of the involvement of Kofi dealing with his son Kojo? What do these investigators have to say that's got to be dealt with?
DOBBS: Well, Robert Parton and Miranda Duncan, both in this investigation have resigned apparently as a matter of principle. It's important to understand why something in this important -- a $64 billion scandal, we might point out -- why they did so, what the issues were. And what you certainly -- your committee, which is doing the important work of investigating this entire matter from the perspective of the United States. The idea that the United Nations under the leadership of Kofi Annan putting Zimbabwe on the Human Rights Commission, the sex scandals with the United Nations, a list of -- at the best characterization would be horrible incidents over the past five or six years.
You've called for his resignation. Have you seen anything in the conduct of this secretary-general that would change your mind to this point?
COLEMAN: No, Lou. And by the way, I really believe that the U.N., we can work with the U.N. They can be a credible partner. But they got to clean up their act. History, oil-for-food, and the lapse of management, the fraud, Benon Sevan, head of the oil-for-food program, appointed by Kofi, on the take, being bribed by Saddam Hussein. Kofi's chief of staff destroying three year's worth of documents. Relationship between Kojo and Cotecna. That's the past -- Zimbabwe on the Human Rights Commission just the other day. By the way, Lou, if that's not a justification there for getting John Bolton to be our U.N. ambassador, get somebody with the strength and the ability to effect reform, an organization that surely needs it, I don't know what is. You have got Sudan that is committing genocide serving on the U.N. Human Rights Commission. The U.N. needs reform. We've got to deal with oil-for-food. More credibility, more transparency, and then we need a strong voice like John Bolton to serve as U.S. ambassador.
DOBBS: One last question, Senator, and that is the inference that has been drawn from many quarters that you know, that there are tapes from the part of Mr. Parton and his investigative team. Any substance to that?
COLEMAN: At this point, we're looking to speak to Mr. Parton. There is a clear concern that there's information out there that challenges the credibility of some things in the Volcker report. The best thing that Paul Volcker can do, the best thing Kofi Annan can do is give Congress access to these investigators. Get rid of any claims of immunity. And this -- sunlight is the best disinfectant, Lou, and the U.N. needs a lot more sunlight today than they are certainly giving access to.
DOBBS: And some would argue a lot more disinfectant of all kinds. Your subpoenas go out this Thursday, is that correct, Senator?
COLEMAN: That's correct.
DOBBS: And if there's a contest over the issue of both the confidentiality agreement signed by both Miranda Duncan and Mr. Parton, if there is an assertion of immunity on the part of Paul Volcker on behalf of the United Nations or the United Nations itself, what happens?
COLEMAN: We'll pursue this at the highest levels in each and every way we can. I think it would be a terrible mistake for the U.N. to try to assert some diplomatic immunity in this case. If their investigation itself appears to be compromised, then they are in deeper trouble than they were yesterday. So we're going to move forward. Hopefully, the right thing will be done.
DOBBS: Senator Norm Coleman, thanks for being here.
COLEMAN: Thank you, Lou.
DOBBS: President Bush and the Pentagon's top general, General Richard Myers, the president's chief military adviser, tonight appear to be in disagreement about the full readiness of our military to fight any new wars. President Bush answering a question at last Thursday's news conference confidently stated that the military has sufficient troops and equipment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The person I asked that to, the person I asked that to at least, is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, my top military adviser. I said, do you feel that we've limited our capacity to deal with other problems because of our troop levels in Iraq? And the answer is, no, he doesn't feel we're limited. Feels like we got plenty of capacity.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: The timelines may have to be extended. We may have to use additional resources. But it doesn't matter, because we're going to be successful in the end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DOBBS: Joining me now, General David Grange, who has consistently on this broadcast called for an increase in the might of the U.S. military and greater support for our fighting men and women. General Grange, good to have you here.
Do you see an inconsistency between the president and the president's chief military adviser, General Myers?
BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I can't tell, Lou, if the president was referring to Iraq only or total military requirements for around the world. If it's around the world, I still stand by the fact that we're terribly short on ground troops, especially, to take on the commitments that the U.S. military has.
DOBBS: Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, reporting that General Myers, the president's chief military adviser, is walking a very difficult line here, because he does not want to give any encouragement to those who would be enemies of this country, those who are enemies of this country, and those against whom we're currently engaged.
But at the same time, it would be of greater comfort, would it not, not to deal honestly and openly with the strains that are obvious, that you have analyzed and remarked upon here on this broadcast for the better part of two years. And that is insufficiency in terms of some equipment, insufficiency in the number of men and women we have in uniform, particularly in the United States Army.
Isn't it time for us to address, as you have put it, the disparity between the mission and our capacity?
GRANGE: Absolutely. I mean, you know, the responsibility of the American GI is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. The customer is the American people. The requirement is to give the facts, give the truth to the American people, the customer, without violating anything -- any security issues that may compromise lives in future operations.
But the fact is that there's a lot of commitments that are not going to go away. The size of the force is small for what it's committed to, and the equipment is getting worn out.
DOBBS: The idea that General Myers would have to put forward this assessment to Congress -- in parts of it obviously classified -- but the fact is that even though there's been great discussion about increasing the size of the Army, improving support, weaponry and resources for our military in all forms, from the Reserves to National Guard to active duty forces. How long is it going to take us, in your best judgment, to bring the U.S. military to a state of readiness and full resource to carry out the missions?
GRANGE: The readiness is amazingly high, considering the use -- the -- you can almost argue overuse around the world. And it's that can-do spirit, that, again, the American GIs have. I mean, it's just astonishing. It was when I served. You couldn't believe that -- what you ask these people to do. But for the long-term, you know, we really should have started to regroup years ago, very similar to after the Vietnam War, because the future has a lot of danger in it. And you pay now, or you pay later.
DOBBS: Would you agree with the assessment, because our young warriors are so motivated and so committed, that it almost doubles our duty to provide them the resources that they require?
GRANGE: Exactly, Lou. You know, it's a tough thing to swallow, the amount of money it's going to take to prepare effectively for what is going on now, almost holding actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, and possible conflicts in other countries that are very dangerous. And it costs money. People are expensive. Proper equipment and training is expensive, and then investing in some modernization to counter future enemies is expensive. But, again, you have to make that commitment. I believe yesterday, or at least today, in order for us to be ready or we're going to pay terribly.
DOBBS: Perhaps the United States Congress and the administration can benefit by absorbing that same can-do spirit that you're referring to on the part of our men and women in the U.S. military. General David Grange, thank you, sir.
GRANGE: My pleasure.
DOBBS: That brings us to the subject of our poll tonight: do you believe the United States needs to increase the size and strength of our military? Yes or no. Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com. We'll have the results coming up in the broadcast.
Up next here, North Korea's nuclear threat: one prominent senator will tell us why he says the White House is failing to address the threat.
Then, reports of numerous labor violations in five countries that the Bush administration wants to sign a free-trade agreement with. I'll be talking with one leading Congressman who has fought for months to have reports that he says were suppressed by the Labor Department, released. We'll be talking about that next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: My next guest says North Korea's apparent ballistic missile test is simply more evidence that the Bush administration's policy toward Pyongyang is failing. Senator Carl Levin of Michigan is the ranking Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, joining us tonight from Detroit.
Senator, good to have you with us.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Lou, always been -- always good to be with you.
North Korea is obviously one of the most difficult issues confronting the United States government and this administration, as it was the previous administration. Why do you say the Bush policies are failing?
Well, because the evidence is so clear. The North Koreans have now taken that plutonium which was under supervision, under inspection, under safeguards, and now taken those rods out, and they've said that they are now beginning, and have begun, to reprocess plutonium which is the most threatening of the fissile material. It's immediate stuff that's available. They have pulled out of the nonproliferation treaty. They have said they would no longer -- going to be bound by that self-imposed moratorium on the testing of missiles.
I mean, it's a much more dangerous place because this administration -- it's a dangerous place anyway, so there's no doubt about that, and these are bad guys, no doubt about that -- but it's been made worse by the refusal of this administration to talk with the North Koreans. They just simply say in Washington, well, we want to work multilaterally. Of course you want to work multilaterally, but that's no reason not to have discussions with the North Koreans.
DOBBS: At the same time, Senator, you and Senator Clinton have sent a letter to Secretary of State Rice, urging bilateral talks. What has been the response?
LEVIN: We haven't gotten a response, yet. But, what we heard on Sunday from Andy Card was that the administration wants to work with our allies, the South Koreans, the Japanese, work with the Russians and Chinese rather than doing this bilaterally. But, it's not either- or. We can have a common strategy, which we must, with our allies and with the neighbors, but at the same time, if they believe, as they do, that we should also talk directly with the North Koreans, we ought to, seems to me, follow that course as well. And not just simply say, unilaterally, we're not talking to people because we don't like them or don't trust them.
DOBBS: Well, beyond not liking them or trusting them, which I think there's more than ample evidence for that position to be taken on the part of this government and any other...
LEVIN: Of course.
DOBBS: ...the fact is, bilateral relationships, as pursued by Madeleine Albright as Secretary of State, did not succeed with the North Koreans. Most frustrating to those I've talked with, Senator, is China's recalcitrance and reluctance to engage in a way that is, frankly, that suits the United States, but also would be protected -- at least, it seems so -- in controlling, better, North Korea. What is your reaction to those who would suggest that is the proper course?
LEVIN: That is a essential step that China could take. It would be very helpful. By the way, we're urging China to have bilateral discussions directly with the North Koreans. It's kind of inconsistent for us to be urging them to do it and at the same time saying we refuse to do it. Yes, we need the Chinese to be much more actively involved. They've got the leverage, much more than we do, but we also should be willing to follow the advice of people in the neighborhood, including the South Koreans, at least privately, that we should also engage in these discussions as part of a common strategy, and not as an alternative to it.
DOBBS: Senator Levin, we have just, well, actually, about 30 seconds. I need to ask you -- I would like to ask you your reaction to General Myers' statements about the constraint of the U.S. military, given the missions it has and its impact should there be future conflicts. Your thoughts?
LEVIN: He's right, and he's being straightforward and I admire him for saying what is common sensical. When you got as many commitments as we do, in Iraq and in Afghanistan and other places, we're overstretched and we are trying to increase the size of the army by at least 20,000 in the Marines, and I think we're going to succeed even though the administration has not supported us doing so in the Congress.
DOBBS: Senator Carl Levin. Thanks for being here.
LEVIN: Good being with you, Lou.
DOBBS: Coming up at the top of the hour here on this network, "ANDERSON COOPER 360." Anderson, now, with a preview. Anderson?
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Yeah, Lou, thanks very much.
Yeah, in about 12 minutes on 360, the man accused of being the BTK serial killer says he is innocent. Tonight, a close look at the case and those hidden clues the killer left behind.
Also ahead tonight, a 360 exclusive: a soldier who admitted he took part in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal is out of jail and back home. Tonight he explains what really happened inside the prison walls.
And, on a far happier note, dolphins who nearly died are sent back into the deep blue sea. We're taking you into the water for the rescue mission that saved their lives. That, a lot more, at the top of the hour, Lou.
DOBBS: Look forward to it, as always. Thank you very much, Anderson.
One report that reveals disturbing news about a trade deal President Bush wants to sign: the details of that report from the Congressman who fought for the release of suppressed reports from the U.S. Labor Department. That story is next. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: The House and the Senate have today moved closer to approving new rules that would stop illegal aliens and potential terrorists from obtaining driver's licenses in this country. A recommendation in point of fact of the 9/11 Commission. The Real I.D. Act is part of the $82 billion military spending bill for Iraq and Afghanistan. The House votes on the measure Thursday. The Senate will vote when it returns from a week-long recess which they will return on the 6th of May.
Turning now to the debate over free trade. My next guest has accused the Labor Department of suppressing reports on oppressive labor conditions on Central America. Congressman Sander Levin, has now won the release of those reports. He says they show all five CAFTA countries violate international labor laws.
Congressman Levin joins us tonight from Capital. Congressman good to have you with us.
REP. SANDER LEVIN (D), MICHIGAN: Glad to be with you, Lou.
DOBBS: It took you almost a year to get the reports from the Labor Department, why?
LEVIN: They did not like what was in them. These reports confirm what the State Department has been saying, also ILRF (ph) reports that workers in these countries do not have their basic rights, especially those to associate. That has dire consequences for them, for their countries that need a middle class. For our workers that don't want to work in competition with those who are suppressed in their rights, and also for our businesses, they need middle classes to buy their products. So it's a bad deal all around when the rights to associate are snuffed out or aren't granted in these countries.
DOBBS: Senator, let's show our viewers what the Labor Department did say, if we could put up the statement from the Labor Department. "Unlike some people, we just don't put our documents without checking for accuracy and quality first. It was important to communicate directly to the International Labor Rights Funds, the organization doing the study, "concerning the organization's failure to substantially improve its work. Once the department reported the inadequacies to the ILRF, the department was happy to provide the documentation to the congressman.
How long did it take, congressman, or is that just an excuse?
LEVIN: I think it's basically an excuse. Look, it took us a year to get these reports. And I wish that the Labor Department and the administration would focus on the content of these reports and what's in the State Department records and their own reports. That is that these countries fail to provide their workers internationally recognized rights. We're not talking at about U.S. minimum wage. We're talking about the basic rights to associate. And essentially what CAFTA does is set up a double standard. And that is countries enforce your own laws even if they're terrible. And they don't say that about intellectual property or about anything else. So, there's this standard that is bad all around.
DOBBS: CAFTA, does it have the votes to move forward in Congress?
LEVIN: It doesn't today. And I hope that the reports, my making them public, making them forcing them to come forth with these reports will stimulate some debate about this basic issue. That is what is globalization all about? I think it has to be not a race to the bottom, but has to be sharing the benefits of expanded trade. That's what this argument is all about.
DOBBS: It would be nice, wouldn't it, congressman, if the United States were to find some markets to which we could export products and services. Maybe that's the next step in the grand design of free trade as its been practiced for the next 30 years.
Congressman Levin...
LEVIN: I hope so. I hope expanded trade will share benefits widely. That's the only way it's a good deal for us and for other countries.
Absolutely. Congressman, thank you very much for being here. We appreciate it.
LEVIN: Glad to be with you. Thanks, Lou.
DOBBS: Still ahead the results of our poll tonight. A preview of what is ahead here tomorrow. Please stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DOBBS: Now the results of our poll tonight, 69 percent of you say the United States needs to increase the size and strength of our military, 31 percent disagree.
Taking a look now at some of "Your Thoughts."
Dennis Maher in Eden, Utah, "Dear Lou, I am having a hard time seeing the difference between coyote illegal immigrant smugglers whom our government hates and the U.S. corporations who hire illegals, who the government loves. Both groups are exploiting illegal immigrants for profit.
Grant Simpson in Phoenix, Arizona, "I find it laughable that so many government officials can say that there are thousands of illegal aliens coming across the border, getting licenses, working in secure positions, and so on. And then say no terrorist are involved, all with a straight face. How could they know that when they don't know who the people are?
Steve Fox in Seymour, Missouri, "We are a nation of laws or so I am told. We spend billions of dollars each year on law enforcement. So when was the last time any employer, anywhere, was arrested, hauled into court and thrown into jail or even fined for hiring illegal immigrants.
Steve, we've been in contact with Immigration and Customs Enforcement which keeps track of such things. ICE says they don't know the exact number of corporations that have been prosecuted. But they say it happens all the time. It's where their companies find. ICE says Wal-Mart was fined is 11 million for hiring illegal aliens. Their subcontractors were recently fined another $4 million.
As always we love hearing "Your Thoughts." Send us those thoughts on LouDobbs.com. Each of you who's e-mail is read here receives a copy of my book "Exporting America. Also if you would like to receive our e-mail news liter sign up at our Web site, LouDobbs.com.
Well, the World's biggest burger can now be found at Denny's Beer Barrel Pub in Clearfield, Pennsylvania. This burger a massive 15 pounds, it is made of 10 and a half pounds, that's 10 and half of ground beef, no quarter pounders here. Twenty-five slices of cheese, a head of lettuce, that's an entire head lettuce, three tomatoes and two whole onions. It has also a cup half of mayonnaise, relish, ketchup and mustard. If a customer eat entire burger in under five hours Denny's Beer Barrel pub picks up the entire $30 tab. Thanks for being with us here tonight. Please join us tomorrow.
Thanks for being with us here tonight. We'll have a very special edition of this broadcast. I'll be joined by the legendary Warren Buffet. He will be with us for a rare live television interview, tomorrow here, 6:00 p.m. Eastern. And we hope that you will be with us, because we're going to talk about everything under the son, corporate corruption to radical Islamist terrorism.
Please be with us. For all of us here, good night from New York.
"ANDERSON COOPER 360 starts right now -- Anderson.
END
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