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Nancy Grace

NANCY GRACE for May 4, 2005, CNNHN

Aired May 04, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, lock the doors with the kids inside. A stunning decision by Texas Pardons and Paroles who gave early release today for a convicted child molester who claims over 200 child victims.
Plus, a suspected serial killer goes free because of a clerical mistake. The victim`s daughter speak out tonight.

And the prosecution rests in State vs. Michael Jackson. Now it`s on the defense.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Day 45 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial, the state rests. Now all eyes on the Jackson defense team. Will Jackson be forced to take the stand? And will Macaulay Culkin soon follow?

And a horrific case of justice gone wrong. Did an FBI fingerprint mistake help a suspected serial killer walk free and then add four more murder victims to his list?

But first, Sarah Michelle Lunde, Jessica Lunsford, Samantha Runnion, Danielle van Dam, Polly Klaas, hundreds more, each one murdered by sex offenders. In Texas, a convicted child molester, Larry Don McQuay, was released.

Years ago, he warned us all he would kill his next child victim if not castrated. Well, McQuay did less than half his sentence behind prison.

With us tonight, in Houston, McQuay`s lawyer, Paul Looney; and the president of Justice for All, Dianne Clements; in New York, defense attorney Jason Oshins; and clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders.

But first, let`s go to San Antonio, Texas, and KSAT reporter Gina Galaviz.

Welcome, Gina. Bring us up-to-date, friend.

GINA GALAVIZ, KSAT-TV REPORTER: Well, he arrived here in San Antonio about 11:30 yesterday morning, little fan fare. It was really cameras and reporters who greeted him. We did ask him a few questions. We asked him if he had been castrated. He said he wasn`t ready to talk about it at this time.

I asked him if he would re-offend. He said, "No, ma`am." Now, he is in Bexar County Jail near downtown San Antonio in a work-release program. And it doesn`t mean he`s going to be getting out. He`s not quite a free man. He`s still under very intense supervision.

He has created quite a stir, and the public was very concerned. But he`s in the Bexar County Jail right now, so he`s still not a free man, even though he has been paroled from prison.

GRACE: Isn`t it true that he gets to work during the day?

GALAVIZ: Well, he doesn`t have a job right now. And if he does leave the facility, if he does leave the jail to go to treatments, to look for a job, any kind of job training, he will be supervised. He`ll have his parole officer with him at all times.

GRACE: Supervised?

GALAVIZ: Supervised.

GRACE: Out from behind bars, am I hearing that right?

GALAVIZ: That`s correct.

GRACE: OK.

GALAVIZ: He also has a global positioning ankle bracelet which is monitored 24 hours a day. So he will not be able to leave the jail like the other inmates who are there in that work-release program.

There`s about 120 men in that program right now. And they`re able to, you know, come and go to work. And then they come back in the evening. But Larry Don McQuay will not be given those privileges at this time.

GRACE: Let`s go to Dianne Clements, the president of Justice for All. Dianne, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY DON MCQUAY, CONVICTED PEDOPHILE: I`m a monster. I look at myself as a monster.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?

MCQUAY: Because of what I`ve done in the past. I`ve done some pretty hideous things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, I couldn`t hear that. But we`ll replay that in just a moment. To Dianne Clements, what`s your take on this?

DIANNE CLEMENTS, PRESIDENT, JUSTICE FOR ALL: Well, what the reporter told you is true. However, he is on graduated sanctions. That means, at some point, he is going to walk out of there without someone supervising him and with no GPS monitoring on him.

So he will be in the community at some point in the future. Larry Don McQuay is a very dangerous man. And he needs to be stigmatized so we know who he is and where he is all the time.

GRACE: Let me get this straight, Dianne. He has claimed over 240 child victims, right or wrong?

CLEMENTS: You`re absolutely right, Nancy.

GRACE: OK.

CLEMENTS: He has claimed that.

GRACE: Didn`t he say, Dianne, that unless he was castrated he would kill his next victim?

CLEMENTS: He did, Nancy, in a letter. He wrote to our organization said very clearly, "I will molest again, and I will murder the next child that I molest, because I don`t want to go back to prison." Those are his words. He said that. We should believe that he will do that.

GRACE: Well, you know, just recently, Erin Runnion broke down in the courthouse. Her daughter, Samantha Runnion, killed by a guy who was acquitted on child molestation, screaming in the halls of the courtroom, in the halls of the courthouse, "Why, why, why do convicted sex offenders get released?"

Why do they, Dianne?

CLEMENTS: You know, they get released because we have a legislative body that`s more concerned about money than they are about public safety. We should change every state law to mandate every child sex offender be incarcerated for the rest of their natural life. And until the public demands that, it`s not going to happen.

GRACE: Let me go to Mr. McQuay`s lawyer. Joining us tonight, Paul Looney.

Paul, your guy said he would kill his next victim if he was not castrated. Has he or has he not been castrated?

PAUL LOONEY, LARRY DON MCQUAY`S LAWYER: Well, he has. He was castrated six months to a year ago. And subsequently, he`s had the hormone adjustment. And it`s helped. It`s helped.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCQUAY: I think there`s a distinct possibility, because I`ve made some pretty outrageous statements, you know. And I wouldn`t blame them one bit for wanting to be hostile.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, Dr. Saunders, the whole theory of castrating sex offenders, it`s not what the public thinks. What is it?

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, there are two kinds of castration. There`s chemical castration and there`s surgical castration. This man, apparently, had surgical castration.

But this is all based on a myth. There were studies done in Scandinavia and Europe where men were surgically castrated. These are sex offenders. That includes adult, people who had adults as their victims, with a small percentage of pedophiles. And apparently their recidivism rate went down.

We don`t know enough about it with pedophiles. And what we do know is that human sexuality is complex. The problem is above the waist, not below, with pedophiles.

GRACE: The reality is, is even with chemical or surgical castration, the violence continues. Dianne Clements, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN RUNNION, MOTHER OF SLAIN CHILD: He is guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. And that feels really good, because nobody should get away with this. And in honor of Samantha, in honor of Jessica, and Molly Bish, and Polly Klaas, and Adam Walsh, how many children do we have to take away before we as Americans get organized? We outnumber you so many times over. There is no excuse, and we`re not going to let you get away with this any more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, I guess the Texas Pardon and Paroles board wasn`t listening to Erin Runnion.

Dianne Clements, his lawyer, Paul Looney says yes, he has been castrated. We were talking about physical castration. Believe me, there is no guillotine on anybody`s private parts. Explain what the process is.

CLEMENTS: Well, his testicles are removed, quite simply, if it happened. And like your doctor said, it doesn`t matter if he has been castrated or not. He still is a danger, because it starts in the head and ends in the hands. He can be very violent.

He can molest children without having the libido to perform that act. So it is a physical castration, if it happened to Mr. McQuay. We don`t know really.

GRACE: Why do you say if?

CLEMENTS: Because he will not release his medical records. We had a contract with him. And when we presented that to the Board of Pardons and Paroles, to the prison officials, they went directly to his prison cell. He rescinded the contract. He said, "You may not see my medical records."

Anyone who has been clamoring publicly for the past ten years that he wanted to be castrated now becomes very coy if he is or is not castrated? Mr. Looney, who represents him, says six months or a year ago, eh, somewhere in there, he was castrated. He doesn`t know. None of us know.

And really does it matter? What matters is that he will molest if he is allowed to walk the streets. Children are in danger. That`s the bottom line.

GRACE: Paul Looney, why won`t he reveal his medical records?

LOONEY: You know, he just doesn`t like those people. They`re vigilantes. And they have treated him very poorly and...

GRACE: Well, how about releasing them to the local newspaper?

LOONEY: If a proper request is made, I wouldn`t be surprised that he didn`t release at least a little bit of it. He doesn`t have a need to release...

CLEMENTS: Yes, he does have a need. He absolutely has a need because he is the one...

LOONEY: Well, I disagree with you.

CLEMENTS: Well, you may disagree, but you`re very wrong, because he does.

LOONEY: No, I`m...

(CROSSTALK)

CLEMENTS: He does. He owes that to the public.

LOONEY: He doesn`t have a need to prove anything to anybody.

CLEMENTS: He owes that to the people who will perhaps...

LOONEY: Why?

CLEMENTS: ... be his victims.

LOONEY: Why?

CLEMENTS: Because he is a convicted serial pedophile. That`s why. As much as you admire him, that`s who he is.

GRACE: I`m going to quickly go to...

LOONEY: You`re telling me that the castration makes no difference. That, by the way, is very uninformed and wrong.

CLEMENTS: I`m telling you...

LOONEY: Castration does make a big difference on impulse control for any male mammal. Ask any veterinarian, from horses, to goats, to...

CLEMENTS: So you`re telling me...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Ask a vet? Look. Your guy is the guy that said -- sir, hold on -- your guy is the one who said I will kill my next victim unless I am castrated. Now he is playing coy and demure. Has he had physical, has he had chemical castration?

Look, 240 victims? That`s a lot of children.

LOONEY: I would like to respond to several of those things. First of all, not one of those 230 victims has ever come forward, even with the publicity. It is my belief that...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: So? Come forward for what?

LOONEY: It is my belief and expectation that that was an exaggeration made by a man who desperately did not want to get out of prison because he believed he would re-offend. And he didn`t want to do that again. He still doesn`t want to do it.

Eight or nine years ago, I could have gotten him out then. He wouldn`t let me because he wasn`t ready. Before he had more therapy, before he had the castration, he wasn`t ready. He wouldn`t let me do what I could have done to get him out.

He`s ready now. And the kinds of things he has done while behind bars are exactly what we should be encouraging not discouraging.

GRACE: You know what? I`m not worried about what he did behind bars, Mr. Looney. I`m worried about those 240 victims that he has confessed to.

Quick break. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE HILBIG, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, BEXAR COUNTY: I don`t give a dang about this castration process. You know, what we do is we punish folks by putting them in prison. And that`s what we`re trying to do with Mr. McQuay, is put him back in prison for the offenses he`s committed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM LYCHNER, JUSTICE FOR ALL: Larry Don McQuay has requested a treatment from the state of Texas which was declined. He then requested the treatment from Justice for All. And we`re willing as private citizens and as a non-profit corporation in the state of Texas to raise the monies for him to be castrated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, there`s no nice way to describe it. That treatment is castration. I know it sounds harsh, but this is a guy who brags of having 240 child molestation victims. He has promised, repeat, promised us, if he is not castrated upon his release, he will murder his next victim.

How many times do we have to be hit over the head with a hammer before we get it? Sex offenders, child molesters will molest again.

Now, Dr. Patricia Saunders, very quickly, when we talk about chemical castration, it`s taking a pill. What is physical?

SAUNDERS: OK. It`s a surgical procedure called an orchiectomy where the testes are removed from the scrotum. Everything else is left intact.

GRACE: Very quickly to Dianne Clements. She is the president for Justice for All. How early in life -- how many years ago did this guy admit he started molesting children?

CLEMENTS: Well, his first conviction were for molestations in 1987. He was a school bus driver and worked at Sea World. I really don`t know if it started earlier in life. I really don`t know that history. But we do know that, as early as 1987, those were his first convictions.

GRACE: To Mr. Looney, right now, he was rejected by a halfway house, as I understand the facts. So he is going to be sleeping at the county jail. That cannot possibly last until 2016. No county jail has room for a sleepover. It`s not a pajama party. He`s going to get out.

LOONEY: Of course, he is. And he should. And the reason that I say he should is that what you`re missing is we have hundreds of thousands of these sexual predators in our society. We can`t possibly warehouse all of them.

And somebody that has done the work necessary to put himself in a position to be unlikely to re-offend, he is wasting space that is needed for somebody that hasn`t done it. The answer to this problem is not warehousing hundreds of thousands of people. The answer to the problem is addressing the problem at its source.

I have never represented a pedophile -- and I have represented scores of them -- but I have never represented even one that wasn`t first a victim before he became a victimizer. And we have got to do a much, much better job of finding these victims.

GRACE: Mr. Looney, Mr. Looney, thank you for defending your client by saying he`s a victim. But I bet 240 kids out there might disagree with you.

To defense attorney Jason Oshins. Jason, you`ve handled a ton of defense cases, criminal cases. There`s more than one way to skin a cat, Jason Oshins. Instead of keeping drug offenders who smoke a joint one night on their way home from a concert, let`s kick them into rehab and put the child molesters in and keep them in.

Am I crazy? Does that not make sense to you?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, sure. And to all defense attorneys it makes sense. But as Mr. Looney said, you know, this is a matter of warehousing felons.

GRACE: What`s wrong with that?

OSHINS: There`s nothing wrong with that. But that`s a legislative decision based on an allocation of resources towards the Bureau of Prisons and towards these situations. Mr. Looney is right. Most of these offenders have been victims themselves at some point in their life.

GRACE: I`m not excusing them for molesting children because they claim they were a victim.

OSHINS: Nancy, there`s no excuse to any of this. And all of us within the defense counsel community, we`re performing our jobs and we`re doing it the best that we can. But you know, to go after, you know, the publicity of this particular sex offender...

GRACE: Jason, Jason, he`s not like other sex offenders. This guy has 240 victims to his credit.

Dianne, response?

CLEMENTS: No. This guy said he would murder. Wouldn`t we be glad if every sex offender would tell us what they were going to do? Yes, we should go after him.

And what Mr. Looney fails to recall is that Mr. McQuay is on patrol until 2016. So he is under state supervision. And absolutely he should house every one of them.

GRACE: Dianne, please, save your breath, OK? He`s under supervision.

CLEMENTS: You`re right.

GRACE: So is John Evander Couey. Alejandro Avila had just beaten the wrap on two child molestation cases. I mean, when you take a look at child predators, they`re all under supervision.

CLEMENTS: Supervision, I don`t mean that in a good sense. What I mean is, Mr. Looney seems to believe that McQuay deserves to walk the streets. Mr. McQuay deserves to be behind prison for the entire 20 years and then some. So the supervision part is almost non-existent...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I want to go back to Mr. Looney. Mr. Looney is McQuay`s defense attorney. McQuay is out of the penitentiary. He claims he will kill his next child molestation victim.

Mr. Looney, you said, under the right circumstances, with the right request, you would release your client`s medical records to prove to me that he has actually been castrated. What if I say please, pretty please with sugar on top? I would love to see those medical records and so would the state of Texas.

LOONEY: What I said was that, under the right circumstances, I suspected that he would. I have not discussed it with him. And I can`t release them. I don`t have the right to do that. But you know, he has not been a hard-to-get-along-with person. He doesn`t like the vigilante group...

GRACE: That`s because you`re a grown man. If you were an 8-year-old kid, it might be a different story.

LOONEY: You know, he was once an 8-year-old kid that was sexually molested, too.

GRACE: Yes, and I`m sorry for that. And I would like to put his perp behind bars, too. But right now, I want your guy.

LOONEY: OK. But we have a man here that, eight or nine years ago, could have gotten out, didn`t want to get out, because he was afraid he would re-offend. He made a lot of outrageous statements to make sure that he wouldn`t get out because he knew that his fantasy life was active and that he would re-offend.

The man has desperately tried to stay in prison for as long as it took for him to be comfortable that he wouldn`t do it again.

GRACE: Is that true, Dianne? Is that true? Has he tried to stay behind bars?

CLEMENTS: He was mandatorily released from prison nine years ago. He was indicted on additional molestation charges, and convicted, and received three consecutive 20-year sentences. He has had four parole reviews since then has been denied. He is now out again on a mandatory release.

GRACE: OK. Guys, we are...

LOONEY: That`s not exactly correct. That`s not exactly correct.

GRACE: OK, I`ve only got 20 seconds left for you to correct it.

CLEMENTS: That`s exactly correct.

LOONEY: The young man did not receive a new case after the first case. He was re-indicted for incidents that occurred at the same time with the sister of the young man that he was originally convicted...

GRACE: Do you really think that`s any better, that he had a different victim than the one she`s talking about? But Mr. Looney...

LOONEY: What I`m getting at is that it was an untimely indictment. And we had the motion that would have killed that case. He refused to let me pursue it because he said he wasn`t ready to get out.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I know this. I know your guy was a bus driver. How he got to be a bus driver, I don`t know. Interaction with children and was writing love letters to a 13-year-old boy?

LOONEY: Right.

GRACE: You know what? Good luck, Mr. Looney, because I think you`re going to need it.

Quick break, everybody. And to "Trial Tracking": Members of the jury cried today as Samantha Runnion`s mom and grandmother testified against Alejandro Avila in the penalty phase of his trial. Avila convicted of kidnap, rape and murder of 5-year-old Samantha Runnion.

The grand jury has got to decide whether to sentence Avila to death or life. Prosecutors say that, after molesting Samantha, Avila suffocated her and left her body by the roadside.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN RUNNION, MOTHER OF SLAIN CHILD: He is guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. And that feels really good, because nobody should get away with this. And in honor of Samantha, in honor of Jessica, and Molly Bish, and Polly Klaas, and Adam Walsh, how many children do we have to take away before we as Americans get organized? We outnumber you so many times over. There is no excuse, and we`re not going to let you get away with this any more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: We all saw on the Bashir special that there was nothing done, the kid stated and his mother stated. And Mike was kind to them. And you tell me, how can someone be held against their will at Neverland? Is it that people doesn`t want to leave there because of the joy and the fun? And it`s just -- Larry, I`m very disappointed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Jermaine Jackson, Michael Jackson`s brother. Remember the Jackson Five? Well, it`s got an all-new meaning, Jackson Five. It often refers to the five alleged co-conspirators with Michael Jackson, Jackson on trial for alleged child molestation.

Let`s go straight to the courthouse. Standing by, Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice."

Jane, hello, dear. Bring me up-to-date.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, the prosecution did score some points today. But they were hoping to wrap up their case with a bombshell witness, Rudy Provencio. The bombshell did not explode as planned.

This morning, the judge limited his testimony regarding this Brazil trip that they had allegedly been planning for the family. That`s where he had told us that he had reportedly heard Jackson referring to this conspiracy.

But because of those limits, he was not asked about that area. He did not link Michael Jackson to any criminal activity. That was a big disappointment for the prosecution team.

GRACE: But I heard the jury really liked this guy, this witness for the state. We`ll be right back with Jane Velez-Mitchell at the courthouse. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, DEFENDANT: Throughout my life, I have only tried to help thousands upon thousands of children to live happy lives. It brings tears to my eyes when I see any child who suffers. I am not guilty of these allegations. But if I am guilty of anything, it is of giving all that I have to -- all that I have to give to help children all over the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Jackson claims he`s only guilty of loving too much.

Let`s go straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice" standing by the courthouse.

The state has rested. But Jane is not going to let it rest. She`s all over the state, the state`s last witness, saying, he`s nothing.

Jane, didn`t this guy, Rudy Provencio, claim under oath that Jackson`s entourage made up stories about killers stalking the family of this little boy?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": He did make some very good points in that regard for the prosecution. When I say that we hear what he`s going to say, I am, of course, referring, Nancy, to sources connected to the case. The witnesses themselves, including Rudy, are covered obviously by the gag order.

Yes, he scored some points. He said that he heard some of these alleged unindicted co-conspirators talking about the family having escaped from Neverland. He said two of them used that word and that he became concerned for this family and sensed that something fishy was going on, but he couldn`t figure out exactly what. That is why he started taking journal notes.

He also discussed Debbie Rowe`s rebuttal interview that he gave on tape in the wake of the Bashir documentary and claims that Mark Schaffel, one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, coached her and prodded her to say certain things and even told her to cry better, said, you`re not crying good enough. You have got to do the scene again. And Rudy claims that, the second time around, she cried better.

GRACE: OK, Jason Oshins, you want to tell me that`s not coaching? Hey, you didn`t cry enough. Cry harder. Cry harder.

OSHINS: Nancy, you know what? We need our own documentary on the prosecution`s case. I mean, talk about your own self-fulfilling prophecies here.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Could you just address what I asked you?

OSHINS: What, about crying harder?

GRACE: Well, about Debbie -- them telling, directing Debbie Rowe to cry harder in this rebuttal video, you know, the one with all the mood music and the fire crackling in the background and her talking about what a great guy Jackson was.

OSHINS: Listen, Nancy, every one of these prosecution witnesses has their own little axe to grind to some degree. It`s been conspiratorially, conspiratorially consecutive on every day.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Conspiratorially consecutive? What? Whoa.

OSHINS: Each witness every day has gone successively witnesses afterwards in order to fulfill whatever the prosecution wants. It`s taken sometimes...

GRACE: You`re melting. You`re melting, Oshins. You`re...

OSHINS: It`s taken seven or eight witnesses to fulfill what the prosecution wants. So, talk about your own conspiratorial theories here.

GRACE: OK. I`m going to back to you on -- I was going to say hold that thought, but don`t. Don`t hold the thought.

OSHINS: Thank you.

GRACE: Back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, wasn`t there a picture that came in with Rudy Provencio that shows during the Debbie Rowe rebuttal somebody, one of the guys sitting on the floor surrounded by scripts? Scripts?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. A photo was presented. It was published on the big screen. And there`s Debbie Rowe sitting in the coach where she did that now infamous or famous rebuttal video and there is a man that Rudy identified as Mark Schaffel.

And he`s on the floor and he looks like he`s scribbling. And the prosecutors asked him, what`s he doing? And Rudy said something to the effect of he`s preparing questions and answers. And there was a little gasp in the courtroom, because he brought in the idea that, by preparing the answers, he was in fact participating in scripting Debbie Rowe, something she vehemently denied on the stand, even though prosecutors had expected she would take the stand and say she was scripted.

One of the things about this case, nobody seems to say what`s expected of them. There`s a lot going on underneath the service.

GRACE: Debra Opri, what do you think about the whole ending for the state`s case with Rudy Provencio?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S PARENTS: Like all the witnesses, this one was supposed to sizzle and this one fizzled.

First, let me say a happy birthday to my client Katherine Jackson. I hope you`re watching. And we`ll see you soon.

As far as all the other witnesses out there, Nancy, the prosecution`s case, it was -- I don`t think anything of it. I think Mesereau`s motion to dismiss tomorrow is going to be -- I hope it will be granted in terms of the conspiracy, hopefully granted in terms of the false imprisonment and hopefully left with the gist of the case that can be defended intelligently and without people snickering, the child molestation, with, as I have long predicted, Macaulay Culkin as one of the lead defense witnesses.

GRACE: So, what about that?

Jane Velez-Mitchell, will Macaulay Culkin actually come into court and testify for Jackson?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I will never say for sure anything about this case, since everybody does the unexpected and seemingly the opposite of what they have said they are going to do.

But, yes, the published reports are right now that the defense is going to start off its case with a steamroller of witnesses, three young men, reportedly, who were involved in the alleged past acts portion of the prosecution`s case, all three of whom have said publicly, nothing ever happened to me, the most famous, of course, Macaulay Culkin, who has said numerous times on television -- we`ve all seen the clips -- nothing happened.

When I say I stay over at Michael Jackson`s bedroom, you have to understand, the bedroom is like an apartment in itself. It`s got a couple of floors. It has got several bathrooms, couches all over the place. It`s not like anybody`s bedroom. That`s been his explanation all along.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Jane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

MACAULAY CULKIN, ACTOR: Look what happened the first time, the first time this happened to him. If someone had done something like that to my kid, I wouldn`t just settle for some money. I would make sure the guy was in jail.

And it just really goes to show. As soon as -- they got the money and they ran. That`s really what happened the first time. And so, you know, I don`t know. It`s just -- it`s a little crazy. And I kind of have taken a step back from the whole thing, because it is a bit of a circus. And if the same thing was happening to me, I wouldn`t want to drag him into it and vice versa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Dr. Patricia Saunders, what do you make of Culkin`s possible appearance? There are two other boys that it`s been alleged were molested by Jackson, Wade Robson, Macaulay Culkin.

One other, right, Jane Velez-Mitchell?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beg your pardon?

GRACE: There was one -- the defense is going to bring on possibly three people to say they were not molested. That would be Wade Robson, Macaulay Culkin. And who is the other?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brett Barnes.

GRACE: Brett Barnes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Supposedly.

GRACE: Right. That`s it.

Dr. Saunders?

SAUNDERS: I don`t think it means very much, Nancy. Saying that they were not molested really doesn`t address the central issues in the case.

With Culkin, there was testimony that he had been fondled. And he was young enough that he may not have remembered it as such.

GRACE: And let me go to Jason Oshins on this.

Jason, I was saying the other night it`s just like a killer`s cousin showing up at Thanksgiving and going, you know, the last time I was around him, he didn`t kill anybody. So, he must not have killed anybody this time. What good is it to bring in these three people and say, well, he didn`t molest me? What does that have to do with the molestation charges?

OSHINS: Well, not necessarily anything directly as it relates to these charges with these victims, alleged victims, but, nonetheless, it is going to work towards his character, indicating, at least from Macaulay Culkin -- he should get some pop out of that, the defense should, at whatever point in time that he does testify.

Here`s this major star. I`m sure that the jury will be riveted to hear what he has to say.

GRACE: Yes.

OSHINS: There`s been a lot of buildup on both ends, from prosecution, from the defense, certainly out in the public, as to what he has to say. I mean, it should work. Obviously, if we expect, as the defense does, that he`s going to come out and say that he`s never been assaulted or, you know, touched improperly by Michael, it`s certainly going to work in the defense`s favor.

GRACE: Yes. Well, you`re right about that, and especially about celebrity, because we saw what happened with Debbie Rowe. The moment she got in the courtroom, took the witness stand, took one look at Jackson, she melted like an ice cube.

Hey, Debra Opri, you remember this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRI: Well, forgive my candor, but this woman is nothing to me but a breeder. She was hired to carry Michael`s children, to bear them and to sell them to him. And that`s what she did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OPRI: Yes, I remember it very well. You played it at the end of last week.

GRACE: Yes.

Debra, but now, now that she worked out for the defense, you want me to believe her?

OPRI: No, no.

GRACE: yes.

OPRI: She`s still a breeder.

And I`ll tell you what the prosecution did, which I do not agree with. And you`ve been a prosecutor. And you may agree with me. Number one, the prosecution should not have waited three days to put the lead investigator, Robel, on the stand to say, she lied to you. What they should have done is treated her on redirect as a hostile witness and said, didn`t you say this? And didn`t you say this? And didn`t you say this?

Didn`t you actually lie to us earlier today? And then play her audiotape. And then put Robel on the stand, because, in the end, she`s still a breeder. She still made a deal to sell her children. That doesn`t mean anything other than who she is in terms of her character. Did she kiss Michael Jackson`s rear end to try to make nice? Yes, she did. Does that make her any worse or any better off than anybody else who has testified? No.

She, like every other witness, has not connected the dots to make Michael Jackson connected to the conspiracy, connected to the false imprisonment, even a child molester, period.

GRACE: OK.

And to Jason Oshins, if Opri is correct that she sold her children, clear this up for me, Jason. Who is the one in the market of buying children? That would be Michael Jackson?

OSHINS: Well, I`m not going to follow as eloquently as Debbie said.

But I will say that she is dead on point as it relates to all of these witnesses, what I was inarticulately saying earlier, that they`ve worked so hard, the prosecution has, at trying to get so many witnesses to buttress what they wanted their chief witness to say, that they`ve sort of worked against themselves. And they have not connected the dots and they made it their own unfortunate docudrama on trying to go where they wanted to go in the first place. And they did not do a good job of it.

GRACE: That was a beautiful closing argument. I`m going to come back at you with a question after this commercial break, everybody.

And we`ll also go to Jane Velez-Mitchell at the courthouse.

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: My greatest inspiration comes from kids. Every song I write, every dance I do, all the poetry I write is all inspired from that level of innocence, that consciousness of purity. And children have that. I see God in the face of children. And, man, I just love being around that all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, there`s just so much you can say about this, children being the inspiration for all of his dance moves.

Welcome back, everybody.

That sound bite was from the ABC version of the Bashir documentary. It was shown to the Jackson jury.

Welcome back.

And before we switch gears, I want to go straight back to Jane Velez- Mitchell.

Jane, how do you believe the defense is going to kick off the case?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think they`re going to bring on these young men to testify that nothing happened. And they`re not just like somebody at a party saying, well, nothing happened to me. They are men that specifically the prosecution has brought in third-party witnesses to say, I saw Michael Jackson do something, for example, with Macaulay Culkin.

GRACE: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, if Macaulay Culkin gets on the stand, he is specifically rebutting that claim.

GRACE: That`s right. That`s right.

And, Debra Opri, will Jackson take the stand?

Everyone, Debra represents Jackson`s parents, as well as being a veteran defense attorney.

Will he take the stand?

OPRI: I`m telling you, in my opinion, he will, based upon three things. First, Mesereau said, you will hear from Michael Jackson. Two, Mesereau is known for putting his clients on the stand. And, number three, I think Michael Jackson wants to testify. As a criminal defense attorney, would I put him on the stand? Number one rule is don`t.

GRACE: Don`t.

OPRI: But I think he will.

GRACE: You know what? He has cried in court. He has puked outside of the courtroom. He has come in, in his pajamas. No way would I subject this guy to cross-examination, if I were his defense attorney. As the prosecution, I would be dying for him to take the stand.

OPRI: I agree with you.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, see you tomorrow, friend.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

GRACE: Everybody else is staying on board. We are switching gears to a stunning case.

Did a clerical error allow a suspected serial killer to walk free and add four victims to his list?

Tonight, in Mobile, Alabama, Lisa Nichols` daughter -- Lisa is a murder victim -- Jennifer Murphy and Amber Nichols.

But first to Atlanta and CNN correspondent Sara Dorsey.

Sara, bring me up to date, friend.

SARA DORSEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, the FBI has basically admitted that their national database, the one that they take fingerprints from and check them to anyone to see if they have a criminal record across the state, failed and was not able to make a match on a man who was going by the name John Paul Chapman, but was, indeed, Jeremy Bryan Jones.

Now, at the time, Jones was arrested three different times in Georgia. And no match was made. The significance of this is that he was wanted in Oklahoma on a sexual assault charge. Because that match was never made, he was allowed out. And, since then, he has been charged with three murders and is being looked at for several others at this point.

GRACE: With me, Lisa Nichols` two girls, they`re beautiful, Jennifer Murphy, Amber Nichols.

Jennifer, when was the last time you spoke to your mom, dear?

JENNIFER MURPHY, DAUGHTER OF LISA NICHOLS: That was September 17.

GRACE: What is that you have with you?

Can we zoom in on that, guys, those pictures you`ve got?

MURPHY: The picture -- yes, the picture, they`re all of our mom, the one in the red dress and then my wedding picture. And then it`s just an action picture that was taken in July. She was actually having a water balloon fight with her grandchildren.

GRACE: Jennifer, you know that this guy -- oh, yes, please keep showing me those pictures. Those are fantastic. Thanks, Renee (ph).

You know, this guy got released because of a clerical error on a fingerprint match.

MURPHY: Correct.

GRACE: And, but for that -- there she is in the water balloon fight - - your mom might still with be with us today.

MURPHY: Absolutely.

GRACE: Jennifer, what is your response?

MURPHY: We`re kind of still a little bit, I guess, in shell shock.

But, you know, we don`t blame anybody. The only person we blame is Jeremy Jones. Our questions are, how can something like this happen, when the FBI is supposed to have the best technology available? Every year, they have like about a $4 billion budget. What went wrong? And how are -- what are they going to do in the future to prevent things like this from happening again?

GRACE: I have got in my hands here the criminal complaint on Jeremy Jones` victim, Lisa Nichols. In a sworn affidavit, Jones confesses to killing Ms. Nichols with a pistol stolen from a neighbor.

Jennifer, when you got to the home, what did you find?

MURPHY: When we got to the home, we didn`t know at that time that it was, indeed, a homicide. They were looking more toward an accident, because there was a fire.

GRACE: Yes. Right.

MURPHY: We found out the next day that, indeed, it was a homicide and that the person...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: We`ll be right back, dear. We`ve got to go to a break. But, girls, don`t move, OK?

Quick break, everybody.

And to tonight`s all-points bulletin. The FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Romney Lynn Prince, wanted by the FBI in connection with a sex assault of a teenage boy in Alabama July 2003, FBI offering a reward for info leading to his arrest, 37, 5`8``, 155, brown hair, blue eyes, pierced tongue with a stud in it.

If you have any info, call the FBI, 251-438-3674.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want desperately to solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Tonight, take a look at Jenni Lueth, murdered May `96, her body found in the high desert north of Phoenix. She was just 19. Police have still not found her killer. If you have any information on this girl, what a beauty, Jenni Lueth, call the Carole Sund/Carrington Foundation toll free, 888-813-8389. Please, help us.

Welcome back, everybody.

With me tonight, in addition to Dr. Saunders, two crime victims, their mom murdered, murdered by a guy, allegedly, who was released from jail by a snafu regarding fingerprints, after that release, four more victims, allegedly, added to his list.

Dr. Saunders, analysis?

SAUNDERS: This guy sounds like he`s an organized serial killer of the sadistic type. One of the lawyers called him a low-rent Ted Bundy. But he`s in the same category as the BTK killer, where sadism, sex and violence are all mixed.

To Amber Nichols.

Mother`s Day is coming up May 8. How do you and Jennifer celebrate? I mean, what do you do on Mother`s Day? You must be so lonely, Amber.

AMBER NICHOLS, DAUGHTER OF LISA NICHOLS: And I haven`t even thought about it. I don`t know if it`s something that I don`t want to think about, because I don`t want to think -- to me, the whole thing is still not real.

GRACE: Jennifer?

MURPHY: It`s going to be different. Normally, we would go to her house and spend the day with her. And now that`s not going to happen. So, it`s going to be different. I think it`s just going to be a very emotional day.

GRACE: You know what? I`m looking at that picture of your mom in the red dress. And she is just the prettiest thing.

MURPHY: Thank you.

NICHOLS: Thank you.

GRACE: We`re praying for you girls, Jennifer and Amber. I`ll think about you on Sunday. Thank you for being with us.

MURPHY: Thank you.

NICHOLS: Thank you.

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight, inviting all of us into your homes.

Coming up, headlines from around the world and Larry on CNN.

And, remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And, until tomorrow night, good night, friend.

END


Aired May 4, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, lock the doors with the kids inside. A stunning decision by Texas Pardons and Paroles who gave early release today for a convicted child molester who claims over 200 child victims.
Plus, a suspected serial killer goes free because of a clerical mistake. The victim`s daughter speak out tonight.

And the prosecution rests in State vs. Michael Jackson. Now it`s on the defense.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

Day 45 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial, the state rests. Now all eyes on the Jackson defense team. Will Jackson be forced to take the stand? And will Macaulay Culkin soon follow?

And a horrific case of justice gone wrong. Did an FBI fingerprint mistake help a suspected serial killer walk free and then add four more murder victims to his list?

But first, Sarah Michelle Lunde, Jessica Lunsford, Samantha Runnion, Danielle van Dam, Polly Klaas, hundreds more, each one murdered by sex offenders. In Texas, a convicted child molester, Larry Don McQuay, was released.

Years ago, he warned us all he would kill his next child victim if not castrated. Well, McQuay did less than half his sentence behind prison.

With us tonight, in Houston, McQuay`s lawyer, Paul Looney; and the president of Justice for All, Dianne Clements; in New York, defense attorney Jason Oshins; and clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders.

But first, let`s go to San Antonio, Texas, and KSAT reporter Gina Galaviz.

Welcome, Gina. Bring us up-to-date, friend.

GINA GALAVIZ, KSAT-TV REPORTER: Well, he arrived here in San Antonio about 11:30 yesterday morning, little fan fare. It was really cameras and reporters who greeted him. We did ask him a few questions. We asked him if he had been castrated. He said he wasn`t ready to talk about it at this time.

I asked him if he would re-offend. He said, "No, ma`am." Now, he is in Bexar County Jail near downtown San Antonio in a work-release program. And it doesn`t mean he`s going to be getting out. He`s not quite a free man. He`s still under very intense supervision.

He has created quite a stir, and the public was very concerned. But he`s in the Bexar County Jail right now, so he`s still not a free man, even though he has been paroled from prison.

GRACE: Isn`t it true that he gets to work during the day?

GALAVIZ: Well, he doesn`t have a job right now. And if he does leave the facility, if he does leave the jail to go to treatments, to look for a job, any kind of job training, he will be supervised. He`ll have his parole officer with him at all times.

GRACE: Supervised?

GALAVIZ: Supervised.

GRACE: Out from behind bars, am I hearing that right?

GALAVIZ: That`s correct.

GRACE: OK.

GALAVIZ: He also has a global positioning ankle bracelet which is monitored 24 hours a day. So he will not be able to leave the jail like the other inmates who are there in that work-release program.

There`s about 120 men in that program right now. And they`re able to, you know, come and go to work. And then they come back in the evening. But Larry Don McQuay will not be given those privileges at this time.

GRACE: Let`s go to Dianne Clements, the president of Justice for All. Dianne, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY DON MCQUAY, CONVICTED PEDOPHILE: I`m a monster. I look at myself as a monster.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?

MCQUAY: Because of what I`ve done in the past. I`ve done some pretty hideous things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, I couldn`t hear that. But we`ll replay that in just a moment. To Dianne Clements, what`s your take on this?

DIANNE CLEMENTS, PRESIDENT, JUSTICE FOR ALL: Well, what the reporter told you is true. However, he is on graduated sanctions. That means, at some point, he is going to walk out of there without someone supervising him and with no GPS monitoring on him.

So he will be in the community at some point in the future. Larry Don McQuay is a very dangerous man. And he needs to be stigmatized so we know who he is and where he is all the time.

GRACE: Let me get this straight, Dianne. He has claimed over 240 child victims, right or wrong?

CLEMENTS: You`re absolutely right, Nancy.

GRACE: OK.

CLEMENTS: He has claimed that.

GRACE: Didn`t he say, Dianne, that unless he was castrated he would kill his next victim?

CLEMENTS: He did, Nancy, in a letter. He wrote to our organization said very clearly, "I will molest again, and I will murder the next child that I molest, because I don`t want to go back to prison." Those are his words. He said that. We should believe that he will do that.

GRACE: Well, you know, just recently, Erin Runnion broke down in the courthouse. Her daughter, Samantha Runnion, killed by a guy who was acquitted on child molestation, screaming in the halls of the courtroom, in the halls of the courthouse, "Why, why, why do convicted sex offenders get released?"

Why do they, Dianne?

CLEMENTS: You know, they get released because we have a legislative body that`s more concerned about money than they are about public safety. We should change every state law to mandate every child sex offender be incarcerated for the rest of their natural life. And until the public demands that, it`s not going to happen.

GRACE: Let me go to Mr. McQuay`s lawyer. Joining us tonight, Paul Looney.

Paul, your guy said he would kill his next victim if he was not castrated. Has he or has he not been castrated?

PAUL LOONEY, LARRY DON MCQUAY`S LAWYER: Well, he has. He was castrated six months to a year ago. And subsequently, he`s had the hormone adjustment. And it`s helped. It`s helped.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCQUAY: I think there`s a distinct possibility, because I`ve made some pretty outrageous statements, you know. And I wouldn`t blame them one bit for wanting to be hostile.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, Dr. Saunders, the whole theory of castrating sex offenders, it`s not what the public thinks. What is it?

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, there are two kinds of castration. There`s chemical castration and there`s surgical castration. This man, apparently, had surgical castration.

But this is all based on a myth. There were studies done in Scandinavia and Europe where men were surgically castrated. These are sex offenders. That includes adult, people who had adults as their victims, with a small percentage of pedophiles. And apparently their recidivism rate went down.

We don`t know enough about it with pedophiles. And what we do know is that human sexuality is complex. The problem is above the waist, not below, with pedophiles.

GRACE: The reality is, is even with chemical or surgical castration, the violence continues. Dianne Clements, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN RUNNION, MOTHER OF SLAIN CHILD: He is guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. And that feels really good, because nobody should get away with this. And in honor of Samantha, in honor of Jessica, and Molly Bish, and Polly Klaas, and Adam Walsh, how many children do we have to take away before we as Americans get organized? We outnumber you so many times over. There is no excuse, and we`re not going to let you get away with this any more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, I guess the Texas Pardon and Paroles board wasn`t listening to Erin Runnion.

Dianne Clements, his lawyer, Paul Looney says yes, he has been castrated. We were talking about physical castration. Believe me, there is no guillotine on anybody`s private parts. Explain what the process is.

CLEMENTS: Well, his testicles are removed, quite simply, if it happened. And like your doctor said, it doesn`t matter if he has been castrated or not. He still is a danger, because it starts in the head and ends in the hands. He can be very violent.

He can molest children without having the libido to perform that act. So it is a physical castration, if it happened to Mr. McQuay. We don`t know really.

GRACE: Why do you say if?

CLEMENTS: Because he will not release his medical records. We had a contract with him. And when we presented that to the Board of Pardons and Paroles, to the prison officials, they went directly to his prison cell. He rescinded the contract. He said, "You may not see my medical records."

Anyone who has been clamoring publicly for the past ten years that he wanted to be castrated now becomes very coy if he is or is not castrated? Mr. Looney, who represents him, says six months or a year ago, eh, somewhere in there, he was castrated. He doesn`t know. None of us know.

And really does it matter? What matters is that he will molest if he is allowed to walk the streets. Children are in danger. That`s the bottom line.

GRACE: Paul Looney, why won`t he reveal his medical records?

LOONEY: You know, he just doesn`t like those people. They`re vigilantes. And they have treated him very poorly and...

GRACE: Well, how about releasing them to the local newspaper?

LOONEY: If a proper request is made, I wouldn`t be surprised that he didn`t release at least a little bit of it. He doesn`t have a need to release...

CLEMENTS: Yes, he does have a need. He absolutely has a need because he is the one...

LOONEY: Well, I disagree with you.

CLEMENTS: Well, you may disagree, but you`re very wrong, because he does.

LOONEY: No, I`m...

(CROSSTALK)

CLEMENTS: He does. He owes that to the public.

LOONEY: He doesn`t have a need to prove anything to anybody.

CLEMENTS: He owes that to the people who will perhaps...

LOONEY: Why?

CLEMENTS: ... be his victims.

LOONEY: Why?

CLEMENTS: Because he is a convicted serial pedophile. That`s why. As much as you admire him, that`s who he is.

GRACE: I`m going to quickly go to...

LOONEY: You`re telling me that the castration makes no difference. That, by the way, is very uninformed and wrong.

CLEMENTS: I`m telling you...

LOONEY: Castration does make a big difference on impulse control for any male mammal. Ask any veterinarian, from horses, to goats, to...

CLEMENTS: So you`re telling me...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Ask a vet? Look. Your guy is the guy that said -- sir, hold on -- your guy is the one who said I will kill my next victim unless I am castrated. Now he is playing coy and demure. Has he had physical, has he had chemical castration?

Look, 240 victims? That`s a lot of children.

LOONEY: I would like to respond to several of those things. First of all, not one of those 230 victims has ever come forward, even with the publicity. It is my belief that...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: So? Come forward for what?

LOONEY: It is my belief and expectation that that was an exaggeration made by a man who desperately did not want to get out of prison because he believed he would re-offend. And he didn`t want to do that again. He still doesn`t want to do it.

Eight or nine years ago, I could have gotten him out then. He wouldn`t let me because he wasn`t ready. Before he had more therapy, before he had the castration, he wasn`t ready. He wouldn`t let me do what I could have done to get him out.

He`s ready now. And the kinds of things he has done while behind bars are exactly what we should be encouraging not discouraging.

GRACE: You know what? I`m not worried about what he did behind bars, Mr. Looney. I`m worried about those 240 victims that he has confessed to.

Quick break. Please stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE HILBIG, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, BEXAR COUNTY: I don`t give a dang about this castration process. You know, what we do is we punish folks by putting them in prison. And that`s what we`re trying to do with Mr. McQuay, is put him back in prison for the offenses he`s committed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM LYCHNER, JUSTICE FOR ALL: Larry Don McQuay has requested a treatment from the state of Texas which was declined. He then requested the treatment from Justice for All. And we`re willing as private citizens and as a non-profit corporation in the state of Texas to raise the monies for him to be castrated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, there`s no nice way to describe it. That treatment is castration. I know it sounds harsh, but this is a guy who brags of having 240 child molestation victims. He has promised, repeat, promised us, if he is not castrated upon his release, he will murder his next victim.

How many times do we have to be hit over the head with a hammer before we get it? Sex offenders, child molesters will molest again.

Now, Dr. Patricia Saunders, very quickly, when we talk about chemical castration, it`s taking a pill. What is physical?

SAUNDERS: OK. It`s a surgical procedure called an orchiectomy where the testes are removed from the scrotum. Everything else is left intact.

GRACE: Very quickly to Dianne Clements. She is the president for Justice for All. How early in life -- how many years ago did this guy admit he started molesting children?

CLEMENTS: Well, his first conviction were for molestations in 1987. He was a school bus driver and worked at Sea World. I really don`t know if it started earlier in life. I really don`t know that history. But we do know that, as early as 1987, those were his first convictions.

GRACE: To Mr. Looney, right now, he was rejected by a halfway house, as I understand the facts. So he is going to be sleeping at the county jail. That cannot possibly last until 2016. No county jail has room for a sleepover. It`s not a pajama party. He`s going to get out.

LOONEY: Of course, he is. And he should. And the reason that I say he should is that what you`re missing is we have hundreds of thousands of these sexual predators in our society. We can`t possibly warehouse all of them.

And somebody that has done the work necessary to put himself in a position to be unlikely to re-offend, he is wasting space that is needed for somebody that hasn`t done it. The answer to this problem is not warehousing hundreds of thousands of people. The answer to the problem is addressing the problem at its source.

I have never represented a pedophile -- and I have represented scores of them -- but I have never represented even one that wasn`t first a victim before he became a victimizer. And we have got to do a much, much better job of finding these victims.

GRACE: Mr. Looney, Mr. Looney, thank you for defending your client by saying he`s a victim. But I bet 240 kids out there might disagree with you.

To defense attorney Jason Oshins. Jason, you`ve handled a ton of defense cases, criminal cases. There`s more than one way to skin a cat, Jason Oshins. Instead of keeping drug offenders who smoke a joint one night on their way home from a concert, let`s kick them into rehab and put the child molesters in and keep them in.

Am I crazy? Does that not make sense to you?

JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, sure. And to all defense attorneys it makes sense. But as Mr. Looney said, you know, this is a matter of warehousing felons.

GRACE: What`s wrong with that?

OSHINS: There`s nothing wrong with that. But that`s a legislative decision based on an allocation of resources towards the Bureau of Prisons and towards these situations. Mr. Looney is right. Most of these offenders have been victims themselves at some point in their life.

GRACE: I`m not excusing them for molesting children because they claim they were a victim.

OSHINS: Nancy, there`s no excuse to any of this. And all of us within the defense counsel community, we`re performing our jobs and we`re doing it the best that we can. But you know, to go after, you know, the publicity of this particular sex offender...

GRACE: Jason, Jason, he`s not like other sex offenders. This guy has 240 victims to his credit.

Dianne, response?

CLEMENTS: No. This guy said he would murder. Wouldn`t we be glad if every sex offender would tell us what they were going to do? Yes, we should go after him.

And what Mr. Looney fails to recall is that Mr. McQuay is on patrol until 2016. So he is under state supervision. And absolutely he should house every one of them.

GRACE: Dianne, please, save your breath, OK? He`s under supervision.

CLEMENTS: You`re right.

GRACE: So is John Evander Couey. Alejandro Avila had just beaten the wrap on two child molestation cases. I mean, when you take a look at child predators, they`re all under supervision.

CLEMENTS: Supervision, I don`t mean that in a good sense. What I mean is, Mr. Looney seems to believe that McQuay deserves to walk the streets. Mr. McQuay deserves to be behind prison for the entire 20 years and then some. So the supervision part is almost non-existent...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I want to go back to Mr. Looney. Mr. Looney is McQuay`s defense attorney. McQuay is out of the penitentiary. He claims he will kill his next child molestation victim.

Mr. Looney, you said, under the right circumstances, with the right request, you would release your client`s medical records to prove to me that he has actually been castrated. What if I say please, pretty please with sugar on top? I would love to see those medical records and so would the state of Texas.

LOONEY: What I said was that, under the right circumstances, I suspected that he would. I have not discussed it with him. And I can`t release them. I don`t have the right to do that. But you know, he has not been a hard-to-get-along-with person. He doesn`t like the vigilante group...

GRACE: That`s because you`re a grown man. If you were an 8-year-old kid, it might be a different story.

LOONEY: You know, he was once an 8-year-old kid that was sexually molested, too.

GRACE: Yes, and I`m sorry for that. And I would like to put his perp behind bars, too. But right now, I want your guy.

LOONEY: OK. But we have a man here that, eight or nine years ago, could have gotten out, didn`t want to get out, because he was afraid he would re-offend. He made a lot of outrageous statements to make sure that he wouldn`t get out because he knew that his fantasy life was active and that he would re-offend.

The man has desperately tried to stay in prison for as long as it took for him to be comfortable that he wouldn`t do it again.

GRACE: Is that true, Dianne? Is that true? Has he tried to stay behind bars?

CLEMENTS: He was mandatorily released from prison nine years ago. He was indicted on additional molestation charges, and convicted, and received three consecutive 20-year sentences. He has had four parole reviews since then has been denied. He is now out again on a mandatory release.

GRACE: OK. Guys, we are...

LOONEY: That`s not exactly correct. That`s not exactly correct.

GRACE: OK, I`ve only got 20 seconds left for you to correct it.

CLEMENTS: That`s exactly correct.

LOONEY: The young man did not receive a new case after the first case. He was re-indicted for incidents that occurred at the same time with the sister of the young man that he was originally convicted...

GRACE: Do you really think that`s any better, that he had a different victim than the one she`s talking about? But Mr. Looney...

LOONEY: What I`m getting at is that it was an untimely indictment. And we had the motion that would have killed that case. He refused to let me pursue it because he said he wasn`t ready to get out.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I know this. I know your guy was a bus driver. How he got to be a bus driver, I don`t know. Interaction with children and was writing love letters to a 13-year-old boy?

LOONEY: Right.

GRACE: You know what? Good luck, Mr. Looney, because I think you`re going to need it.

Quick break, everybody. And to "Trial Tracking": Members of the jury cried today as Samantha Runnion`s mom and grandmother testified against Alejandro Avila in the penalty phase of his trial. Avila convicted of kidnap, rape and murder of 5-year-old Samantha Runnion.

The grand jury has got to decide whether to sentence Avila to death or life. Prosecutors say that, after molesting Samantha, Avila suffocated her and left her body by the roadside.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN RUNNION, MOTHER OF SLAIN CHILD: He is guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. And that feels really good, because nobody should get away with this. And in honor of Samantha, in honor of Jessica, and Molly Bish, and Polly Klaas, and Adam Walsh, how many children do we have to take away before we as Americans get organized? We outnumber you so many times over. There is no excuse, and we`re not going to let you get away with this any more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: We all saw on the Bashir special that there was nothing done, the kid stated and his mother stated. And Mike was kind to them. And you tell me, how can someone be held against their will at Neverland? Is it that people doesn`t want to leave there because of the joy and the fun? And it`s just -- Larry, I`m very disappointed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Jermaine Jackson, Michael Jackson`s brother. Remember the Jackson Five? Well, it`s got an all-new meaning, Jackson Five. It often refers to the five alleged co-conspirators with Michael Jackson, Jackson on trial for alleged child molestation.

Let`s go straight to the courthouse. Standing by, Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice."

Jane, hello, dear. Bring me up-to-date.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, the prosecution did score some points today. But they were hoping to wrap up their case with a bombshell witness, Rudy Provencio. The bombshell did not explode as planned.

This morning, the judge limited his testimony regarding this Brazil trip that they had allegedly been planning for the family. That`s where he had told us that he had reportedly heard Jackson referring to this conspiracy.

But because of those limits, he was not asked about that area. He did not link Michael Jackson to any criminal activity. That was a big disappointment for the prosecution team.

GRACE: But I heard the jury really liked this guy, this witness for the state. We`ll be right back with Jane Velez-Mitchell at the courthouse. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, DEFENDANT: Throughout my life, I have only tried to help thousands upon thousands of children to live happy lives. It brings tears to my eyes when I see any child who suffers. I am not guilty of these allegations. But if I am guilty of anything, it is of giving all that I have to -- all that I have to give to help children all over the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Jackson claims he`s only guilty of loving too much.

Let`s go straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice" standing by the courthouse.

The state has rested. But Jane is not going to let it rest. She`s all over the state, the state`s last witness, saying, he`s nothing.

Jane, didn`t this guy, Rudy Provencio, claim under oath that Jackson`s entourage made up stories about killers stalking the family of this little boy?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": He did make some very good points in that regard for the prosecution. When I say that we hear what he`s going to say, I am, of course, referring, Nancy, to sources connected to the case. The witnesses themselves, including Rudy, are covered obviously by the gag order.

Yes, he scored some points. He said that he heard some of these alleged unindicted co-conspirators talking about the family having escaped from Neverland. He said two of them used that word and that he became concerned for this family and sensed that something fishy was going on, but he couldn`t figure out exactly what. That is why he started taking journal notes.

He also discussed Debbie Rowe`s rebuttal interview that he gave on tape in the wake of the Bashir documentary and claims that Mark Schaffel, one of the alleged unindicted co-conspirators, coached her and prodded her to say certain things and even told her to cry better, said, you`re not crying good enough. You have got to do the scene again. And Rudy claims that, the second time around, she cried better.

GRACE: OK, Jason Oshins, you want to tell me that`s not coaching? Hey, you didn`t cry enough. Cry harder. Cry harder.

OSHINS: Nancy, you know what? We need our own documentary on the prosecution`s case. I mean, talk about your own self-fulfilling prophecies here.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Could you just address what I asked you?

OSHINS: What, about crying harder?

GRACE: Well, about Debbie -- them telling, directing Debbie Rowe to cry harder in this rebuttal video, you know, the one with all the mood music and the fire crackling in the background and her talking about what a great guy Jackson was.

OSHINS: Listen, Nancy, every one of these prosecution witnesses has their own little axe to grind to some degree. It`s been conspiratorially, conspiratorially consecutive on every day.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Conspiratorially consecutive? What? Whoa.

OSHINS: Each witness every day has gone successively witnesses afterwards in order to fulfill whatever the prosecution wants. It`s taken sometimes...

GRACE: You`re melting. You`re melting, Oshins. You`re...

OSHINS: It`s taken seven or eight witnesses to fulfill what the prosecution wants. So, talk about your own conspiratorial theories here.

GRACE: OK. I`m going to back to you on -- I was going to say hold that thought, but don`t. Don`t hold the thought.

OSHINS: Thank you.

GRACE: Back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, wasn`t there a picture that came in with Rudy Provencio that shows during the Debbie Rowe rebuttal somebody, one of the guys sitting on the floor surrounded by scripts? Scripts?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. A photo was presented. It was published on the big screen. And there`s Debbie Rowe sitting in the coach where she did that now infamous or famous rebuttal video and there is a man that Rudy identified as Mark Schaffel.

And he`s on the floor and he looks like he`s scribbling. And the prosecutors asked him, what`s he doing? And Rudy said something to the effect of he`s preparing questions and answers. And there was a little gasp in the courtroom, because he brought in the idea that, by preparing the answers, he was in fact participating in scripting Debbie Rowe, something she vehemently denied on the stand, even though prosecutors had expected she would take the stand and say she was scripted.

One of the things about this case, nobody seems to say what`s expected of them. There`s a lot going on underneath the service.

GRACE: Debra Opri, what do you think about the whole ending for the state`s case with Rudy Provencio?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S PARENTS: Like all the witnesses, this one was supposed to sizzle and this one fizzled.

First, let me say a happy birthday to my client Katherine Jackson. I hope you`re watching. And we`ll see you soon.

As far as all the other witnesses out there, Nancy, the prosecution`s case, it was -- I don`t think anything of it. I think Mesereau`s motion to dismiss tomorrow is going to be -- I hope it will be granted in terms of the conspiracy, hopefully granted in terms of the false imprisonment and hopefully left with the gist of the case that can be defended intelligently and without people snickering, the child molestation, with, as I have long predicted, Macaulay Culkin as one of the lead defense witnesses.

GRACE: So, what about that?

Jane Velez-Mitchell, will Macaulay Culkin actually come into court and testify for Jackson?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I will never say for sure anything about this case, since everybody does the unexpected and seemingly the opposite of what they have said they are going to do.

But, yes, the published reports are right now that the defense is going to start off its case with a steamroller of witnesses, three young men, reportedly, who were involved in the alleged past acts portion of the prosecution`s case, all three of whom have said publicly, nothing ever happened to me, the most famous, of course, Macaulay Culkin, who has said numerous times on television -- we`ve all seen the clips -- nothing happened.

When I say I stay over at Michael Jackson`s bedroom, you have to understand, the bedroom is like an apartment in itself. It`s got a couple of floors. It has got several bathrooms, couches all over the place. It`s not like anybody`s bedroom. That`s been his explanation all along.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Jane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

MACAULAY CULKIN, ACTOR: Look what happened the first time, the first time this happened to him. If someone had done something like that to my kid, I wouldn`t just settle for some money. I would make sure the guy was in jail.

And it just really goes to show. As soon as -- they got the money and they ran. That`s really what happened the first time. And so, you know, I don`t know. It`s just -- it`s a little crazy. And I kind of have taken a step back from the whole thing, because it is a bit of a circus. And if the same thing was happening to me, I wouldn`t want to drag him into it and vice versa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Dr. Patricia Saunders, what do you make of Culkin`s possible appearance? There are two other boys that it`s been alleged were molested by Jackson, Wade Robson, Macaulay Culkin.

One other, right, Jane Velez-Mitchell?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Beg your pardon?

GRACE: There was one -- the defense is going to bring on possibly three people to say they were not molested. That would be Wade Robson, Macaulay Culkin. And who is the other?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brett Barnes.

GRACE: Brett Barnes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Supposedly.

GRACE: Right. That`s it.

Dr. Saunders?

SAUNDERS: I don`t think it means very much, Nancy. Saying that they were not molested really doesn`t address the central issues in the case.

With Culkin, there was testimony that he had been fondled. And he was young enough that he may not have remembered it as such.

GRACE: And let me go to Jason Oshins on this.

Jason, I was saying the other night it`s just like a killer`s cousin showing up at Thanksgiving and going, you know, the last time I was around him, he didn`t kill anybody. So, he must not have killed anybody this time. What good is it to bring in these three people and say, well, he didn`t molest me? What does that have to do with the molestation charges?

OSHINS: Well, not necessarily anything directly as it relates to these charges with these victims, alleged victims, but, nonetheless, it is going to work towards his character, indicating, at least from Macaulay Culkin -- he should get some pop out of that, the defense should, at whatever point in time that he does testify.

Here`s this major star. I`m sure that the jury will be riveted to hear what he has to say.

GRACE: Yes.

OSHINS: There`s been a lot of buildup on both ends, from prosecution, from the defense, certainly out in the public, as to what he has to say. I mean, it should work. Obviously, if we expect, as the defense does, that he`s going to come out and say that he`s never been assaulted or, you know, touched improperly by Michael, it`s certainly going to work in the defense`s favor.

GRACE: Yes. Well, you`re right about that, and especially about celebrity, because we saw what happened with Debbie Rowe. The moment she got in the courtroom, took the witness stand, took one look at Jackson, she melted like an ice cube.

Hey, Debra Opri, you remember this?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRI: Well, forgive my candor, but this woman is nothing to me but a breeder. She was hired to carry Michael`s children, to bear them and to sell them to him. And that`s what she did.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OPRI: Yes, I remember it very well. You played it at the end of last week.

GRACE: Yes.

Debra, but now, now that she worked out for the defense, you want me to believe her?

OPRI: No, no.

GRACE: yes.

OPRI: She`s still a breeder.

And I`ll tell you what the prosecution did, which I do not agree with. And you`ve been a prosecutor. And you may agree with me. Number one, the prosecution should not have waited three days to put the lead investigator, Robel, on the stand to say, she lied to you. What they should have done is treated her on redirect as a hostile witness and said, didn`t you say this? And didn`t you say this? And didn`t you say this?

Didn`t you actually lie to us earlier today? And then play her audiotape. And then put Robel on the stand, because, in the end, she`s still a breeder. She still made a deal to sell her children. That doesn`t mean anything other than who she is in terms of her character. Did she kiss Michael Jackson`s rear end to try to make nice? Yes, she did. Does that make her any worse or any better off than anybody else who has testified? No.

She, like every other witness, has not connected the dots to make Michael Jackson connected to the conspiracy, connected to the false imprisonment, even a child molester, period.

GRACE: OK.

And to Jason Oshins, if Opri is correct that she sold her children, clear this up for me, Jason. Who is the one in the market of buying children? That would be Michael Jackson?

OSHINS: Well, I`m not going to follow as eloquently as Debbie said.

But I will say that she is dead on point as it relates to all of these witnesses, what I was inarticulately saying earlier, that they`ve worked so hard, the prosecution has, at trying to get so many witnesses to buttress what they wanted their chief witness to say, that they`ve sort of worked against themselves. And they have not connected the dots and they made it their own unfortunate docudrama on trying to go where they wanted to go in the first place. And they did not do a good job of it.

GRACE: That was a beautiful closing argument. I`m going to come back at you with a question after this commercial break, everybody.

And we`ll also go to Jane Velez-Mitchell at the courthouse.

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACKSON: My greatest inspiration comes from kids. Every song I write, every dance I do, all the poetry I write is all inspired from that level of innocence, that consciousness of purity. And children have that. I see God in the face of children. And, man, I just love being around that all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, there`s just so much you can say about this, children being the inspiration for all of his dance moves.

Welcome back, everybody.

That sound bite was from the ABC version of the Bashir documentary. It was shown to the Jackson jury.

Welcome back.

And before we switch gears, I want to go straight back to Jane Velez- Mitchell.

Jane, how do you believe the defense is going to kick off the case?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think they`re going to bring on these young men to testify that nothing happened. And they`re not just like somebody at a party saying, well, nothing happened to me. They are men that specifically the prosecution has brought in third-party witnesses to say, I saw Michael Jackson do something, for example, with Macaulay Culkin.

GRACE: Yes.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: So, if Macaulay Culkin gets on the stand, he is specifically rebutting that claim.

GRACE: That`s right. That`s right.

And, Debra Opri, will Jackson take the stand?

Everyone, Debra represents Jackson`s parents, as well as being a veteran defense attorney.

Will he take the stand?

OPRI: I`m telling you, in my opinion, he will, based upon three things. First, Mesereau said, you will hear from Michael Jackson. Two, Mesereau is known for putting his clients on the stand. And, number three, I think Michael Jackson wants to testify. As a criminal defense attorney, would I put him on the stand? Number one rule is don`t.

GRACE: Don`t.

OPRI: But I think he will.

GRACE: You know what? He has cried in court. He has puked outside of the courtroom. He has come in, in his pajamas. No way would I subject this guy to cross-examination, if I were his defense attorney. As the prosecution, I would be dying for him to take the stand.

OPRI: I agree with you.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, see you tomorrow, friend.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.

GRACE: Everybody else is staying on board. We are switching gears to a stunning case.

Did a clerical error allow a suspected serial killer to walk free and add four victims to his list?

Tonight, in Mobile, Alabama, Lisa Nichols` daughter -- Lisa is a murder victim -- Jennifer Murphy and Amber Nichols.

But first to Atlanta and CNN correspondent Sara Dorsey.

Sara, bring me up to date, friend.

SARA DORSEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, the FBI has basically admitted that their national database, the one that they take fingerprints from and check them to anyone to see if they have a criminal record across the state, failed and was not able to make a match on a man who was going by the name John Paul Chapman, but was, indeed, Jeremy Bryan Jones.

Now, at the time, Jones was arrested three different times in Georgia. And no match was made. The significance of this is that he was wanted in Oklahoma on a sexual assault charge. Because that match was never made, he was allowed out. And, since then, he has been charged with three murders and is being looked at for several others at this point.

GRACE: With me, Lisa Nichols` two girls, they`re beautiful, Jennifer Murphy, Amber Nichols.

Jennifer, when was the last time you spoke to your mom, dear?

JENNIFER MURPHY, DAUGHTER OF LISA NICHOLS: That was September 17.

GRACE: What is that you have with you?

Can we zoom in on that, guys, those pictures you`ve got?

MURPHY: The picture -- yes, the picture, they`re all of our mom, the one in the red dress and then my wedding picture. And then it`s just an action picture that was taken in July. She was actually having a water balloon fight with her grandchildren.

GRACE: Jennifer, you know that this guy -- oh, yes, please keep showing me those pictures. Those are fantastic. Thanks, Renee (ph).

You know, this guy got released because of a clerical error on a fingerprint match.

MURPHY: Correct.

GRACE: And, but for that -- there she is in the water balloon fight - - your mom might still with be with us today.

MURPHY: Absolutely.

GRACE: Jennifer, what is your response?

MURPHY: We`re kind of still a little bit, I guess, in shell shock.

But, you know, we don`t blame anybody. The only person we blame is Jeremy Jones. Our questions are, how can something like this happen, when the FBI is supposed to have the best technology available? Every year, they have like about a $4 billion budget. What went wrong? And how are -- what are they going to do in the future to prevent things like this from happening again?

GRACE: I have got in my hands here the criminal complaint on Jeremy Jones` victim, Lisa Nichols. In a sworn affidavit, Jones confesses to killing Ms. Nichols with a pistol stolen from a neighbor.

Jennifer, when you got to the home, what did you find?

MURPHY: When we got to the home, we didn`t know at that time that it was, indeed, a homicide. They were looking more toward an accident, because there was a fire.

GRACE: Yes. Right.

MURPHY: We found out the next day that, indeed, it was a homicide and that the person...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: We`ll be right back, dear. We`ve got to go to a break. But, girls, don`t move, OK?

Quick break, everybody.

And to tonight`s all-points bulletin. The FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Romney Lynn Prince, wanted by the FBI in connection with a sex assault of a teenage boy in Alabama July 2003, FBI offering a reward for info leading to his arrest, 37, 5`8``, 155, brown hair, blue eyes, pierced tongue with a stud in it.

If you have any info, call the FBI, 251-438-3674.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want desperately to solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Tonight, take a look at Jenni Lueth, murdered May `96, her body found in the high desert north of Phoenix. She was just 19. Police have still not found her killer. If you have any information on this girl, what a beauty, Jenni Lueth, call the Carole Sund/Carrington Foundation toll free, 888-813-8389. Please, help us.

Welcome back, everybody.

With me tonight, in addition to Dr. Saunders, two crime victims, their mom murdered, murdered by a guy, allegedly, who was released from jail by a snafu regarding fingerprints, after that release, four more victims, allegedly, added to his list.

Dr. Saunders, analysis?

SAUNDERS: This guy sounds like he`s an organized serial killer of the sadistic type. One of the lawyers called him a low-rent Ted Bundy. But he`s in the same category as the BTK killer, where sadism, sex and violence are all mixed.

To Amber Nichols.

Mother`s Day is coming up May 8. How do you and Jennifer celebrate? I mean, what do you do on Mother`s Day? You must be so lonely, Amber.

AMBER NICHOLS, DAUGHTER OF LISA NICHOLS: And I haven`t even thought about it. I don`t know if it`s something that I don`t want to think about, because I don`t want to think -- to me, the whole thing is still not real.

GRACE: Jennifer?

MURPHY: It`s going to be different. Normally, we would go to her house and spend the day with her. And now that`s not going to happen. So, it`s going to be different. I think it`s just going to be a very emotional day.

GRACE: You know what? I`m looking at that picture of your mom in the red dress. And she is just the prettiest thing.

MURPHY: Thank you.

NICHOLS: Thank you.

GRACE: We`re praying for you girls, Jennifer and Amber. I`ll think about you on Sunday. Thank you for being with us.

MURPHY: Thank you.

NICHOLS: Thank you.

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but my biggest thank you is to you for being with us tonight, inviting all of us into your homes.

Coming up, headlines from around the world and Larry on CNN.

And, remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And, until tomorrow night, good night, friend.

END