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American Morning

U.S. Strikes Out Against Iraqi Insurgents; President Bush in Russia

Aired May 09, 2005 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: The family of an Australian man being held hostage in Iraq is offering to make a generous contribution to help secure his release. This as an apparent deadline for Douglas Wood gets closer. A new videotape reportedly showing Wood appeared on Friday, demanding Australia pull out of Iraq within 72 hours.
To California now. Michael Jackson's lawyers are starting the first full week of their defense. Jackson's lawyers are trying to refute claims from the prosecution that Jackson acted inappropriately with boys. Among the people expected to testify, actor Macaulay Culkin. No word yet on whether Jackson himself will take the stand.

And Vijay Singh came through again, winning his third PGA tournament this year. The world's number two came out on top at the Wachovia Championship in Charlotte, North Carolina. He beat Sergio Garcia and Jim Furyk. In a sudden death playoff -- Garcia had a six- shot lead going into the final round -- but Vijay Singh came back and this is as exciting as golf gets.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Right there.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: How do you blow a six-shot lead?

COSTELLO: I don't know. Choke!

O'BRIEN: Ooh!

COSTELLO: Well.

O'BRIEN: Ooh, but true. All right, Carol, thanks.

Another suicide attack in Iraqi security forces to tell you about this morning. A car bomb detonated at a checkpoint in Southern Baghdad, killing four, including two police officers and wounding eight others. U.S. casualties in Iraq passed the 1,600 mark this weekend, when three U.S. troops were killed. Two soldiers were killed near Khaldiya and also a third in Samarra. The U.S. military says all three were killed by roadside bombs.

Meanwhile, U.S.-led coalition forces striking out today against the relentless Iraqi insurgency. Their new offensive is taking place far away from Baghdad, in the western Anbar province near Syria. And it comes amid word about a shift in Pentagon strategy in the fight against insurgents.

Let's get right to Barbara Starr. She's at the Pentagon this morning. Barbara, good morning to you. A little bit of a lull in the attacks after the election, of course. Once again, we're seeing violence. I mean, we're reporting day after day after day of massive violence. Give me a sense, then, where does the offensive today in the western part of the country fit into all this?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, it does, Soledad. It is very key to what is going on in Iraq right now. There are two statistics that may be quite staggering to people that tell a lot about what is going on. The U.S. military now estimates 300 Iraqi civilians and security forces killed in this wave of violence in the last ten days alone in Iraq.

And the number of car bomb attacks in April now doubled over what it was in February during that post-election lull. The feeling is that the insurgents, the foreign terrorists, had been working very hard during that lull, possibly stockpiling car bombs and weapons and now, they are letting loose. So senior U.S. military commanders tell CNN that they are shifting their priorities just a bit right now, refocusing their attention on the foreign fighters who are launching so many of these terrorist attacks.

The belief is that many of them are out in the west, where we are seeing the new offensive by the U.S. military. They are going after them. Not that the foreign fighters are necessarily stopping political progress in Iraq, but with this wave of very visible violence, there is great concern about the impact they are having on Iraqi society and the U.S. military wants to move to stop it -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Barbara, as you well know, massive efforts to try to nab Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Is there a sense that if they can get him, they can cut the insurgency at the knees, or is it more of a symbolic point? If they can grab him, it sort of sends a bigger message.

STARR: Again, senior U.S. military commanders looking at that very question, Soledad, tell us that if and when they can capture or kill Zarqawi, certainly that will have an impact, they say, on this very violent segment of the foreign terrorists operating inside Iraq. They do believe it will have an impact, but no one in the military at this point is counting on it ending the violence. One indicator of that, U.S. military intelligence already is moving to identify the terrorist leaders that might already be inside Iraq, ready to step in and fill Zarqawi's shoes if and when he is captured or killed.

O'BRIEN: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon for us. Barbara, thanks -- Bill.

HEMMER: About 25 minutes before the hour now, President Bush paid tribute to Russia today. It is the 60th anniversary of the allied victory over the Nazis in World War II. And this parade we're watching now also helped to highlight the post-war Soviet domination of Eastern Europe. President Bush has been speaking out against that.

Perfect topic today for Kamber and May. Democratic consultant Vic Kamber is back with us. Vic, good morning to you.

VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: And former RNC communications director Cliff May. Both in D.C. Cliff, how you doing? Good morning to you, as well.

CLIFFORD MAY, FMR. RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Good morning.

HEMMER: Let's get first -- Vic, let's get to this issue of President Bush, slamming the Soviet Union in speech after speech, literally. Is this the right strategy to carry this message through Moscow?

KAMBER: Well, I don't think so. I think, once again, it's the cowboy from Texas shooting from the hip. I mean, bottom line is, we all support democracy. It's wonderful that this country's committed to promoting democracy. He went over to Russia for a specific point, which was to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the end of the Nazis and World War II. I think inappropriate timing to go into an area surrounding Russia and promote something that is offensive to Putin.

HEMMER: He calls it inappropriate and offensive, Cliff.

MAY: He's missing the point. What Bush is doing is showing that he's pro-Russian, but anti-Soviet. Very important distinction. The Russian people sacrificed a lot to defeat the Nazis, but the Soviet Union was in league with the Nazis. Stalin signed the pact with Hitler that led to the takeover of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Stalin was right up there as one of the great villains of the 20th century, along with Hitler. It is not a good idea to sort of make that all go away. You don't -- diplomacy doesn't mean that you whitewash history. And the history of the Soviet Union is a very terrible...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Victor, I'm wondering if we just go ahead and accept the fact that these men choose to disagree on a number of issues, especially how democracy is formed in many different forums around the world.

KAMBER: No question. I mean, I'm willing to accept that. I'm only suggesting there's a time and a place. I think we do disagree ideologically on a number of issues, and should. I mean -- and I'm glad we're there promoting -- I'm glad we are promoting the concept of a free world and democracy. All I'm saying is the timing and the place.

MAY: Straight talk is a good thing. And the timing and place, that's correct, is when Putin is actually with Bush. Otherwise, you can't do it. Right now, Putin wants to be part of the developed democracies of the world. Well, you know what? Then you got to develop and you got to be Democratic.

HEMMER: Let's talk about the next topic.

KAMBER: Well, you do that in a private meeting.

HEMMER: Go ahead, Vic, final word?

KAMBER: Oh, I just said, then you do that in the private meetings.

MAY: No, you pressure them by doing some of it in the public meetings as well.

HEMMER: Let's talk about North Korea. Apparently they're getting ready for some sort of nuclear test, if the intelligence is true. The IAEA, Mohamed ElBaradei very concerned at this point. Cliff, take it from here. What do we know to believe is true out of North Korea?

MAY: Yes, well, we know to be believe is true is that it's very likely they have nuclear weapons. They haven't tested them yet, doesn't mean they don't work. They probably do. We also know that Kim Jong-Il, who is the rather crazy dictator there, if he has these weapons, he'd sell them to just about anybody. And if one of those weapons were to go off in New York or Los Angeles, he'd probably be giggling there with his cigars and...

HEMMER: But do you believe the preemptive strike is the right way to go? Do I understand that to be true?

MAY: No. I would say that between doing nothing and a preemptive strike, I hope we have other options as well, including openly throwing leaflets down and talking to colonels secretly who may not be happy with Kim Jong-Il, clandestine activities. There should be a range of things before you get actually into a military conflict.

HEMMER: Let me get back to the original question with Victor. What do we believe to be true about North Korea? What can we believe and what is something that is still up for dispute?

KAMBER: Well, I think we believe that he has nuclear capability. We've known that, or been told that, for the last six to nine months. I mean, and one of the problems -- you know, I'm assuming it's true, unlike the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq -- that we do know something about North Korea. The difficulty is we've -- we're so stretched so thin, the concept of a preemptive strike makes no sense. This is a country that frankly could do damage to us, North Korea, or to our allies. This is a time we need world commitment. We need to reach out to our allies. We need to isolate North Korea. We need to make sure that they do not use those weapons in any way, shape or form.

HEMMER: Cliff, you think we're taking the right moves towards that? What Victor's describing there/

MAY: We've been stumbling, in terms of our policy with North Korea, for more than a decade now. I don't think Victor's wrong about our allies. And not just our allies -- also, we need to pressure China to help. They've not been helpful so far. That suggests our relations with China are in somewhat of disrepair. Very soon, it seems to me that the Japanese are going to have to decide if they're going to want to have nuclear weapons. They will, if North Korea has it. China doesn't want that. We need to play that card. But right now, we've got a terrible situation and I think we're trying very hard to figure out what to do about it and nobody has really good answers.

HEMMER: Let's leave it there. Also, I read something about they were setting up a reviewing stand for this test.

MAY: Yes, that's right.

HEMMER: Forget about that, huh, guys? I don't know a whole lot of people raising their hands to stand on that reviewing stand, if, indeed, they test fire one of these missile.

Thank you, gentlemen. Have a good Monday, OK? Vic, Cliff, always good to have you on with us. Kamber and May on a Monday morning. Here's Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Thanks very much, Bill.

This morning, we're talking a little bit about underwater investigations. Sanjay Gupta, our very own medical investigator, is going to have more on that, just ahead this morning.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: There's a plan out there to put a tax on Big Mac attacks. Andy explains that "Minding Your Business" in a moment.

O'BRIEN: Just the attack, or do you have to actually go buy the food.

HEMMER: We'll find out.

O'BRIEN: Also, searching for illuminating clues in murky waters. We are "Paging Dr. Gupta" for an up-close look at underwater "CSI." That's up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Pretty much everybody knows that CSI stands for "crime scene investigation." It's America's top-rated TV franchise, obviously, but this week, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who is also a certified medical investigators, will show us how they do it on TV and in a real CSI unit.

Sanjay's at the CNN Center this morning. Hey, Sanjay. I didn't know you were a medical investigator.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, certified medical examiner.

I've always been really fascinated by this. And clearly a lot of people around the country, around the world are as well. It's the number-one franchise around the world.

What I found fascinating, Soledad, was that people were really interested in the science of it, strands of hair, DNA, a drop of blood, what that can tell us, what the body can tell us.

What I want to introduce you to is a team of people who will take their investigations to the depths of the ocean floor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you watch the television drama "CSI Miami," you'll see plenty of water scenes, but little underwater investigating. There will be an occasional body in the water, but the detailed investigations the shows are known for rarely take place beneath the waves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Eric, what've you got?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Five bodies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: So is Hollywood accurately portraying reality? A few years ago, the answer would be yes.

But today, these instructors at Florida State University's underwater CSI program would beg to differ. They've built a program from scratch based on their experiences in law enforcement, criminology, forensics, even archaeology. There, students learn how to properly handle an underwater crime scene.

BANYAN PELHAM, FSU CSI TRAINING COORD.: Well, an underwater crime scene before was basically just treated as a recovery. You'd go down, anything that looks like potential evidence, you bring it up.

GUPTA: The students are not your typical coeds. They are all accomplished divers who already work in law enforcement. On this day, they're following a missing-persons case. Because it is an active investigation, we can't get into the details.

MISSY ADAMS, UNDERWATER CSI STUDENT: This was a project that I came across in some of our older files, and is regarding a missing person, and we just came to do it as a school project.

TOM KELLEY, FSU UNDERWATER CSI: Our students are actually taken out on active crime scenes. In fact, all of our instructors are called in on a regular basis to assist police officers all over the state and actually all over the country.

GUPTA: For the Clarks, they learn how to use the latest technology, a GPS, a side-scan sonar to see the bottom of the pond. They even use a remote-operating vehicle, or ROV, which has a camera that can help show where evidence might be located.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, there it is. Drop the buoy. Drop the buoy. Yes, there's a barrel there, or a bucket.

GUPTA: The students find something they think might be important, so they send in the divers. A closer look, and it appears to be a barrel that could hold a body. But the day is running out, so they'll have to come back again for further inspection.

DALE NUTE, FSU CRIMINOLOGY PROFESSOR: You will spend a lot of time, a lot of preparation, a lot of resources, and possibly come up with negative results.

GUPTA: Another class studies how to properly document a case. The assignment is to find some boats that have been intentionally sunk in the bay.

MICHAEL ZINSZER, FSU UNDERWATER CSI: The same rules and requirements that are on land are also in the water. There is no changes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we document a case, we're taking exact photographs and measurements of where the evidence is recovered or seen.

GUPTA: Sometimes that's easier said than done.

MARK FEULNER, FSU TECHNICAL ADVISER: No visibility. Like two, three feet. No visibility at all.

GUPTA: But that doesn't stop this team. They continue to measure and document the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Literally, we call that diving by braille. If you can see your tape, you can take your measurement.

GUPTA: Back at the missing person case, the students have returned to the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got her.

GUPTA: They've located and documented the barrel. It appears big enough for a body, so they bring it to shore.

So what was in that barrel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Empty as it can be. Well, you've got to look. You've got to check it.

GUPTA: The crime remains a mystery.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE; It just an old case, and we hope maybe some day we'll find something, but none of this is helpful to it.

GUPTA: The students learn a life lesson. Unlike on TV, investigations take more than an hour and aren't always solved.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: And that was probably the biggest lesson that we learned as we researched for this special coming up, Soledad. It's unlike TV in that these investigations do take a while, but this particular underwater unit called out several times a month now to try and solve some of these crimes -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: I was going to ask you that. So it's fairly common? Is that why they started creating the course in the first place?

GUPTA: Yes, you know, it was really interesting the history of this. Actually it was after the bombing of the USS Cole they decided to actually put together a formal underwater crime scene investigation unit to try and recover bodies and try and collect evidence as well. So it's pretty recently that this was actually formed -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Sanjay, final quick question for you. Is evidence that's in the water more likely to be damaged, and destroyed and sort of fall apart? Or is it more likely to be not touched because no one's really walked through it or had access to it?

GUPTA: It really depends on the type of evidence that you're looking for. Certain things, like DNA for example, can still be collected, even from the water, strands of hair. You can get information from that. But there's other types of physical evidence which may be more damaged, or just forgotten, and as a result eroded over time as well -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right, Sanjay, really interesting. Fascinating. Of course you're going have more on the forensics phenomenon all this week. Also, he's hosting a primetime special Sunday night, 10:00 p.m. Eastern, called "ANATOMY OF MURDER: CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION." Looking forward to that.

HEMMER: Break here. In a moment. Jack's back with the File.

Today, he tells us about some guy named Jesus having trouble with the DMV. That's up after a break, right after this on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: OK. Welcome back.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: You can have it your way, but your next burger may come with a tax. Whether you like it or not, the politicians out in Michigan running a high fever here. Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: This is kind of a fun one. I mean, if it doesn't happen, it's fun. If it does happen, it's really pathetic and sad. Detroit has a $300 million budget deficit. And Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick thinks he has a solution. He's proposed a fast food tax, a 2 percent tax on all fast food in the city of Detroit.

Now, here's how it works, 2 percent on top of the 6 percent tax. So you have a Big Mac for $2.50, you throw another nickel in. Now Jack and I just coming up the stairs here to the studio came up with about five or six reasons why this is wrong. No. 1, Jack. Regressive. Who pays the tax?

CAFFERTY: It's just stupid. The poorest people in the town wind up paying this tax.

SERWER: Poor people pay the tax. That's number one. Number two, apparently even salads at McDonald's would be taxed. So say you're a poor person, or a rich person, and you're eating McDonald's and you're eating healthy, you'd still be taxed.

And then the other question is, what's fast food? McDonald's is fast food. Is Applebee's fast food? Is Chinese food fast food?

CAFFERTY: Can they even do this legally? I bet they can't. I bet if they went to court, if McDonald's says you're not allowed to do this, I'll bet the courts would rule in their favor. You can't just go and slap a tax on one hamburger stand on the corner and say you've got to pay more for the food in there.

HEMMER: I think what they're doing is they're trying to extend what they did to liquor and cigarettes. They're saying the stuff is bad.

CAFFERTY: Yes, but that stuff's legislated. You've got to go and get a law passed.

(CROSSTALK)

SERWER: They tried to do this to lattes in Seattle, too.

CAFFERTY: Well, they should tax lattes. Those people who drink lattes should pay more taxes, just as a rule, just as matter of social policy.

SERWER: By definition, yes.

CAFFERTY: Absolutely.

SERWER: All right, let's talk about the markets really quickly. Though we had a good week last week, Jack, third week in a row. We're up for the year. We're still looking at a lot of red ink here, you can see. And this morning, we do have some mergers to talk about, maybe some consolidation in the online trading business. E*Trade and Ameritrade talking. A big deal in the utility business as well, Duke Power buying Cinergy.

That's all she wrote.

CAFFERTY: That's all she wrote.

SERWER: Yes.

CAFFERTY: Cell phone use on the rise. So are the taxes on cell phones. State and local governments -- pardon me -- pardon me. I told you earlier, it's like working in a petri dish. Last week, she was sick. This week, he's sick. You get a terminal disease doing AMERICAN MORNING. Cell phone taxes. As governments see revenues fall from traditional land lines, they're adding new taxes to your cell phone bill, two to 10 bucks or more a month. So on top of the existing federal and state taxes, the cell phone industry says it's already taxed heavily and unfairly, about $9 of the average $51-a-month bill. As part of its lobbying effort to kill these new taxes, the cell phone industry has started a consumer Web site, www.stopaddingtomybill.com. Write in and complain.

SERWER: Sign me up.

CAFFERTY: No secret here. Teenage girls can be nasty to one another, and they get started early. Girls as young as three or four use manipulation and peer pressure to get what they want. A new study in this month's "Early Education and Development Journal" finds 17 percent to 20 percent of preschool and school-aged girls do this stuff. They regularly exclude others and threaten to withdraw friendship when they don't get their way. These are also the girls who eventually turn out to be the most popular.

As for boys, they are much less likely, Soledad, to display this kind of aggressive behavior.

O'BRIEN: Kind of a good news/bad news story for me, huh?

CAFFERTY: It's all good.

West Virginia is refusing to issue a driver's license to a guy named Jesus Christ. The man has a passport, Social Security card and a Washington D.C. driver's license with that name. But his birth certificate says he's Peter Robert Phillips Jr. Phillips applied for a legal name change two years ago, but the judge turned him down, saying the name Jesus Christ would provoke a, quote, "violent reaction," or, quote, "significantly offend people," unquote.

Now an appeals court is actually going to hear this idiot's case. This is the stuff they waste our money doing. They're going to take this guy's application for a driver's license in the name of Jesus Christ, and the judge says you're an idiot get out of my courtroom. Now he's going to go to the appellate court, and the appellate courts says, oh, OK, we can hear this.

SERWER: It might be easier to pronounce his name "hey-sus."

HEMMER: Maybe.

SERWER: You know, that might be more palatable.

(CROSSTALK)

CAFFERTY: His name is Peter Robert Phillips Jr. That's your name. Deal with it. Or get out of the country, and go get a Bolivian driver's license. Leave us alone.

Pardon me, I'm not feeling well.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Oh! So not my fault, by the way.

Thanks, Jack.

Coming up in just a moment, a problem that affects as many as 15 million women, the midlife crisis. How do we women cope? Some advice is ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired May 9, 2005 - 08:30   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAROL COSTELLO, CNN ANCHOR: The family of an Australian man being held hostage in Iraq is offering to make a generous contribution to help secure his release. This as an apparent deadline for Douglas Wood gets closer. A new videotape reportedly showing Wood appeared on Friday, demanding Australia pull out of Iraq within 72 hours.
To California now. Michael Jackson's lawyers are starting the first full week of their defense. Jackson's lawyers are trying to refute claims from the prosecution that Jackson acted inappropriately with boys. Among the people expected to testify, actor Macaulay Culkin. No word yet on whether Jackson himself will take the stand.

And Vijay Singh came through again, winning his third PGA tournament this year. The world's number two came out on top at the Wachovia Championship in Charlotte, North Carolina. He beat Sergio Garcia and Jim Furyk. In a sudden death playoff -- Garcia had a six- shot lead going into the final round -- but Vijay Singh came back and this is as exciting as golf gets.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Right there.

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: How do you blow a six-shot lead?

COSTELLO: I don't know. Choke!

O'BRIEN: Ooh!

COSTELLO: Well.

O'BRIEN: Ooh, but true. All right, Carol, thanks.

Another suicide attack in Iraqi security forces to tell you about this morning. A car bomb detonated at a checkpoint in Southern Baghdad, killing four, including two police officers and wounding eight others. U.S. casualties in Iraq passed the 1,600 mark this weekend, when three U.S. troops were killed. Two soldiers were killed near Khaldiya and also a third in Samarra. The U.S. military says all three were killed by roadside bombs.

Meanwhile, U.S.-led coalition forces striking out today against the relentless Iraqi insurgency. Their new offensive is taking place far away from Baghdad, in the western Anbar province near Syria. And it comes amid word about a shift in Pentagon strategy in the fight against insurgents.

Let's get right to Barbara Starr. She's at the Pentagon this morning. Barbara, good morning to you. A little bit of a lull in the attacks after the election, of course. Once again, we're seeing violence. I mean, we're reporting day after day after day of massive violence. Give me a sense, then, where does the offensive today in the western part of the country fit into all this?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, it does, Soledad. It is very key to what is going on in Iraq right now. There are two statistics that may be quite staggering to people that tell a lot about what is going on. The U.S. military now estimates 300 Iraqi civilians and security forces killed in this wave of violence in the last ten days alone in Iraq.

And the number of car bomb attacks in April now doubled over what it was in February during that post-election lull. The feeling is that the insurgents, the foreign terrorists, had been working very hard during that lull, possibly stockpiling car bombs and weapons and now, they are letting loose. So senior U.S. military commanders tell CNN that they are shifting their priorities just a bit right now, refocusing their attention on the foreign fighters who are launching so many of these terrorist attacks.

The belief is that many of them are out in the west, where we are seeing the new offensive by the U.S. military. They are going after them. Not that the foreign fighters are necessarily stopping political progress in Iraq, but with this wave of very visible violence, there is great concern about the impact they are having on Iraqi society and the U.S. military wants to move to stop it -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Barbara, as you well know, massive efforts to try to nab Abu Musab al Zarqawi. Is there a sense that if they can get him, they can cut the insurgency at the knees, or is it more of a symbolic point? If they can grab him, it sort of sends a bigger message.

STARR: Again, senior U.S. military commanders looking at that very question, Soledad, tell us that if and when they can capture or kill Zarqawi, certainly that will have an impact, they say, on this very violent segment of the foreign terrorists operating inside Iraq. They do believe it will have an impact, but no one in the military at this point is counting on it ending the violence. One indicator of that, U.S. military intelligence already is moving to identify the terrorist leaders that might already be inside Iraq, ready to step in and fill Zarqawi's shoes if and when he is captured or killed.

O'BRIEN: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon for us. Barbara, thanks -- Bill.

HEMMER: About 25 minutes before the hour now, President Bush paid tribute to Russia today. It is the 60th anniversary of the allied victory over the Nazis in World War II. And this parade we're watching now also helped to highlight the post-war Soviet domination of Eastern Europe. President Bush has been speaking out against that.

Perfect topic today for Kamber and May. Democratic consultant Vic Kamber is back with us. Vic, good morning to you.

VICTOR KAMBER, DEMOCRATIC CONSULTANT: Good morning, Bill.

HEMMER: And former RNC communications director Cliff May. Both in D.C. Cliff, how you doing? Good morning to you, as well.

CLIFFORD MAY, FMR. RNC COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Good morning.

HEMMER: Let's get first -- Vic, let's get to this issue of President Bush, slamming the Soviet Union in speech after speech, literally. Is this the right strategy to carry this message through Moscow?

KAMBER: Well, I don't think so. I think, once again, it's the cowboy from Texas shooting from the hip. I mean, bottom line is, we all support democracy. It's wonderful that this country's committed to promoting democracy. He went over to Russia for a specific point, which was to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the end of the Nazis and World War II. I think inappropriate timing to go into an area surrounding Russia and promote something that is offensive to Putin.

HEMMER: He calls it inappropriate and offensive, Cliff.

MAY: He's missing the point. What Bush is doing is showing that he's pro-Russian, but anti-Soviet. Very important distinction. The Russian people sacrificed a lot to defeat the Nazis, but the Soviet Union was in league with the Nazis. Stalin signed the pact with Hitler that led to the takeover of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia. Stalin was right up there as one of the great villains of the 20th century, along with Hitler. It is not a good idea to sort of make that all go away. You don't -- diplomacy doesn't mean that you whitewash history. And the history of the Soviet Union is a very terrible...

(CROSSTALK)

HEMMER: Victor, I'm wondering if we just go ahead and accept the fact that these men choose to disagree on a number of issues, especially how democracy is formed in many different forums around the world.

KAMBER: No question. I mean, I'm willing to accept that. I'm only suggesting there's a time and a place. I think we do disagree ideologically on a number of issues, and should. I mean -- and I'm glad we're there promoting -- I'm glad we are promoting the concept of a free world and democracy. All I'm saying is the timing and the place.

MAY: Straight talk is a good thing. And the timing and place, that's correct, is when Putin is actually with Bush. Otherwise, you can't do it. Right now, Putin wants to be part of the developed democracies of the world. Well, you know what? Then you got to develop and you got to be Democratic.

HEMMER: Let's talk about the next topic.

KAMBER: Well, you do that in a private meeting.

HEMMER: Go ahead, Vic, final word?

KAMBER: Oh, I just said, then you do that in the private meetings.

MAY: No, you pressure them by doing some of it in the public meetings as well.

HEMMER: Let's talk about North Korea. Apparently they're getting ready for some sort of nuclear test, if the intelligence is true. The IAEA, Mohamed ElBaradei very concerned at this point. Cliff, take it from here. What do we know to believe is true out of North Korea?

MAY: Yes, well, we know to be believe is true is that it's very likely they have nuclear weapons. They haven't tested them yet, doesn't mean they don't work. They probably do. We also know that Kim Jong-Il, who is the rather crazy dictator there, if he has these weapons, he'd sell them to just about anybody. And if one of those weapons were to go off in New York or Los Angeles, he'd probably be giggling there with his cigars and...

HEMMER: But do you believe the preemptive strike is the right way to go? Do I understand that to be true?

MAY: No. I would say that between doing nothing and a preemptive strike, I hope we have other options as well, including openly throwing leaflets down and talking to colonels secretly who may not be happy with Kim Jong-Il, clandestine activities. There should be a range of things before you get actually into a military conflict.

HEMMER: Let me get back to the original question with Victor. What do we believe to be true about North Korea? What can we believe and what is something that is still up for dispute?

KAMBER: Well, I think we believe that he has nuclear capability. We've known that, or been told that, for the last six to nine months. I mean, and one of the problems -- you know, I'm assuming it's true, unlike the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq -- that we do know something about North Korea. The difficulty is we've -- we're so stretched so thin, the concept of a preemptive strike makes no sense. This is a country that frankly could do damage to us, North Korea, or to our allies. This is a time we need world commitment. We need to reach out to our allies. We need to isolate North Korea. We need to make sure that they do not use those weapons in any way, shape or form.

HEMMER: Cliff, you think we're taking the right moves towards that? What Victor's describing there/

MAY: We've been stumbling, in terms of our policy with North Korea, for more than a decade now. I don't think Victor's wrong about our allies. And not just our allies -- also, we need to pressure China to help. They've not been helpful so far. That suggests our relations with China are in somewhat of disrepair. Very soon, it seems to me that the Japanese are going to have to decide if they're going to want to have nuclear weapons. They will, if North Korea has it. China doesn't want that. We need to play that card. But right now, we've got a terrible situation and I think we're trying very hard to figure out what to do about it and nobody has really good answers.

HEMMER: Let's leave it there. Also, I read something about they were setting up a reviewing stand for this test.

MAY: Yes, that's right.

HEMMER: Forget about that, huh, guys? I don't know a whole lot of people raising their hands to stand on that reviewing stand, if, indeed, they test fire one of these missile.

Thank you, gentlemen. Have a good Monday, OK? Vic, Cliff, always good to have you on with us. Kamber and May on a Monday morning. Here's Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Thanks very much, Bill.

This morning, we're talking a little bit about underwater investigations. Sanjay Gupta, our very own medical investigator, is going to have more on that, just ahead this morning.

(WEATHER REPORT)

HEMMER: There's a plan out there to put a tax on Big Mac attacks. Andy explains that "Minding Your Business" in a moment.

O'BRIEN: Just the attack, or do you have to actually go buy the food.

HEMMER: We'll find out.

O'BRIEN: Also, searching for illuminating clues in murky waters. We are "Paging Dr. Gupta" for an up-close look at underwater "CSI." That's up next on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: Pretty much everybody knows that CSI stands for "crime scene investigation." It's America's top-rated TV franchise, obviously, but this week, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, who is also a certified medical investigators, will show us how they do it on TV and in a real CSI unit.

Sanjay's at the CNN Center this morning. Hey, Sanjay. I didn't know you were a medical investigator.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, certified medical examiner.

I've always been really fascinated by this. And clearly a lot of people around the country, around the world are as well. It's the number-one franchise around the world.

What I found fascinating, Soledad, was that people were really interested in the science of it, strands of hair, DNA, a drop of blood, what that can tell us, what the body can tell us.

What I want to introduce you to is a team of people who will take their investigations to the depths of the ocean floor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If you watch the television drama "CSI Miami," you'll see plenty of water scenes, but little underwater investigating. There will be an occasional body in the water, but the detailed investigations the shows are known for rarely take place beneath the waves.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Eric, what've you got?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Five bodies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: So is Hollywood accurately portraying reality? A few years ago, the answer would be yes.

But today, these instructors at Florida State University's underwater CSI program would beg to differ. They've built a program from scratch based on their experiences in law enforcement, criminology, forensics, even archaeology. There, students learn how to properly handle an underwater crime scene.

BANYAN PELHAM, FSU CSI TRAINING COORD.: Well, an underwater crime scene before was basically just treated as a recovery. You'd go down, anything that looks like potential evidence, you bring it up.

GUPTA: The students are not your typical coeds. They are all accomplished divers who already work in law enforcement. On this day, they're following a missing-persons case. Because it is an active investigation, we can't get into the details.

MISSY ADAMS, UNDERWATER CSI STUDENT: This was a project that I came across in some of our older files, and is regarding a missing person, and we just came to do it as a school project.

TOM KELLEY, FSU UNDERWATER CSI: Our students are actually taken out on active crime scenes. In fact, all of our instructors are called in on a regular basis to assist police officers all over the state and actually all over the country.

GUPTA: For the Clarks, they learn how to use the latest technology, a GPS, a side-scan sonar to see the bottom of the pond. They even use a remote-operating vehicle, or ROV, which has a camera that can help show where evidence might be located.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, there it is. Drop the buoy. Drop the buoy. Yes, there's a barrel there, or a bucket.

GUPTA: The students find something they think might be important, so they send in the divers. A closer look, and it appears to be a barrel that could hold a body. But the day is running out, so they'll have to come back again for further inspection.

DALE NUTE, FSU CRIMINOLOGY PROFESSOR: You will spend a lot of time, a lot of preparation, a lot of resources, and possibly come up with negative results.

GUPTA: Another class studies how to properly document a case. The assignment is to find some boats that have been intentionally sunk in the bay.

MICHAEL ZINSZER, FSU UNDERWATER CSI: The same rules and requirements that are on land are also in the water. There is no changes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we document a case, we're taking exact photographs and measurements of where the evidence is recovered or seen.

GUPTA: Sometimes that's easier said than done.

MARK FEULNER, FSU TECHNICAL ADVISER: No visibility. Like two, three feet. No visibility at all.

GUPTA: But that doesn't stop this team. They continue to measure and document the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Literally, we call that diving by braille. If you can see your tape, you can take your measurement.

GUPTA: Back at the missing person case, the students have returned to the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Got her.

GUPTA: They've located and documented the barrel. It appears big enough for a body, so they bring it to shore.

So what was in that barrel?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Empty as it can be. Well, you've got to look. You've got to check it.

GUPTA: The crime remains a mystery.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE; It just an old case, and we hope maybe some day we'll find something, but none of this is helpful to it.

GUPTA: The students learn a life lesson. Unlike on TV, investigations take more than an hour and aren't always solved.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: And that was probably the biggest lesson that we learned as we researched for this special coming up, Soledad. It's unlike TV in that these investigations do take a while, but this particular underwater unit called out several times a month now to try and solve some of these crimes -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: I was going to ask you that. So it's fairly common? Is that why they started creating the course in the first place?

GUPTA: Yes, you know, it was really interesting the history of this. Actually it was after the bombing of the USS Cole they decided to actually put together a formal underwater crime scene investigation unit to try and recover bodies and try and collect evidence as well. So it's pretty recently that this was actually formed -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: Sanjay, final quick question for you. Is evidence that's in the water more likely to be damaged, and destroyed and sort of fall apart? Or is it more likely to be not touched because no one's really walked through it or had access to it?

GUPTA: It really depends on the type of evidence that you're looking for. Certain things, like DNA for example, can still be collected, even from the water, strands of hair. You can get information from that. But there's other types of physical evidence which may be more damaged, or just forgotten, and as a result eroded over time as well -- Soledad.

O'BRIEN: All right, Sanjay, really interesting. Fascinating. Of course you're going have more on the forensics phenomenon all this week. Also, he's hosting a primetime special Sunday night, 10:00 p.m. Eastern, called "ANATOMY OF MURDER: CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION." Looking forward to that.

HEMMER: Break here. In a moment. Jack's back with the File.

Today, he tells us about some guy named Jesus having trouble with the DMV. That's up after a break, right after this on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HEMMER: OK. Welcome back.

JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: You can have it your way, but your next burger may come with a tax. Whether you like it or not, the politicians out in Michigan running a high fever here. Andy Serwer is "Minding Your Business."

ANDY SERWER, "FORTUNE" MAGAZINE: This is kind of a fun one. I mean, if it doesn't happen, it's fun. If it does happen, it's really pathetic and sad. Detroit has a $300 million budget deficit. And Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick thinks he has a solution. He's proposed a fast food tax, a 2 percent tax on all fast food in the city of Detroit.

Now, here's how it works, 2 percent on top of the 6 percent tax. So you have a Big Mac for $2.50, you throw another nickel in. Now Jack and I just coming up the stairs here to the studio came up with about five or six reasons why this is wrong. No. 1, Jack. Regressive. Who pays the tax?

CAFFERTY: It's just stupid. The poorest people in the town wind up paying this tax.

SERWER: Poor people pay the tax. That's number one. Number two, apparently even salads at McDonald's would be taxed. So say you're a poor person, or a rich person, and you're eating McDonald's and you're eating healthy, you'd still be taxed.

And then the other question is, what's fast food? McDonald's is fast food. Is Applebee's fast food? Is Chinese food fast food?

CAFFERTY: Can they even do this legally? I bet they can't. I bet if they went to court, if McDonald's says you're not allowed to do this, I'll bet the courts would rule in their favor. You can't just go and slap a tax on one hamburger stand on the corner and say you've got to pay more for the food in there.

HEMMER: I think what they're doing is they're trying to extend what they did to liquor and cigarettes. They're saying the stuff is bad.

CAFFERTY: Yes, but that stuff's legislated. You've got to go and get a law passed.

(CROSSTALK)

SERWER: They tried to do this to lattes in Seattle, too.

CAFFERTY: Well, they should tax lattes. Those people who drink lattes should pay more taxes, just as a rule, just as matter of social policy.

SERWER: By definition, yes.

CAFFERTY: Absolutely.

SERWER: All right, let's talk about the markets really quickly. Though we had a good week last week, Jack, third week in a row. We're up for the year. We're still looking at a lot of red ink here, you can see. And this morning, we do have some mergers to talk about, maybe some consolidation in the online trading business. E*Trade and Ameritrade talking. A big deal in the utility business as well, Duke Power buying Cinergy.

That's all she wrote.

CAFFERTY: That's all she wrote.

SERWER: Yes.

CAFFERTY: Cell phone use on the rise. So are the taxes on cell phones. State and local governments -- pardon me -- pardon me. I told you earlier, it's like working in a petri dish. Last week, she was sick. This week, he's sick. You get a terminal disease doing AMERICAN MORNING. Cell phone taxes. As governments see revenues fall from traditional land lines, they're adding new taxes to your cell phone bill, two to 10 bucks or more a month. So on top of the existing federal and state taxes, the cell phone industry says it's already taxed heavily and unfairly, about $9 of the average $51-a-month bill. As part of its lobbying effort to kill these new taxes, the cell phone industry has started a consumer Web site, www.stopaddingtomybill.com. Write in and complain.

SERWER: Sign me up.

CAFFERTY: No secret here. Teenage girls can be nasty to one another, and they get started early. Girls as young as three or four use manipulation and peer pressure to get what they want. A new study in this month's "Early Education and Development Journal" finds 17 percent to 20 percent of preschool and school-aged girls do this stuff. They regularly exclude others and threaten to withdraw friendship when they don't get their way. These are also the girls who eventually turn out to be the most popular.

As for boys, they are much less likely, Soledad, to display this kind of aggressive behavior.

O'BRIEN: Kind of a good news/bad news story for me, huh?

CAFFERTY: It's all good.

West Virginia is refusing to issue a driver's license to a guy named Jesus Christ. The man has a passport, Social Security card and a Washington D.C. driver's license with that name. But his birth certificate says he's Peter Robert Phillips Jr. Phillips applied for a legal name change two years ago, but the judge turned him down, saying the name Jesus Christ would provoke a, quote, "violent reaction," or, quote, "significantly offend people," unquote.

Now an appeals court is actually going to hear this idiot's case. This is the stuff they waste our money doing. They're going to take this guy's application for a driver's license in the name of Jesus Christ, and the judge says you're an idiot get out of my courtroom. Now he's going to go to the appellate court, and the appellate courts says, oh, OK, we can hear this.

SERWER: It might be easier to pronounce his name "hey-sus."

HEMMER: Maybe.

SERWER: You know, that might be more palatable.

(CROSSTALK)

CAFFERTY: His name is Peter Robert Phillips Jr. That's your name. Deal with it. Or get out of the country, and go get a Bolivian driver's license. Leave us alone.

Pardon me, I'm not feeling well.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Oh! So not my fault, by the way.

Thanks, Jack.

Coming up in just a moment, a problem that affects as many as 15 million women, the midlife crisis. How do we women cope? Some advice is ahead on AMERICAN MORNING.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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