The Web      Powered by
powered by Yahoo!


Return to Transcripts main page


Illinois Police Find Bodies of Two Little Girls; Day Three for Defense in Michael Jackson Trial

Aired May 9, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news, a shocking discovery. Illinois police say they are investigating the discovery of the bodies of two little girls found today in a wooded area near Chicago.
And tonight, we need your help. A beautiful 16-month-old toddler, missing.

And day three for the defense in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. We go live to California.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

The Michael Jackson defense is on the offense. A Neverland security supervisor on the witness stand, and what a load of security: Alarms, video cameras, locks, dead bolts, all protecting Michael Jackson`s bedroom. And is "Home Alone" star Macaulay Culkin set to take the stand?

Tonight, a breaking Amber Alert for a 16-month-old little boy, reported missing when his mom was found dead. We take you live to New Mexico.

But first, breaking news tonight. A horrific discovery in a park. It`s about 45 miles north of Chicago. The bodies of two little girls, 8- and 9-years-old, best friends. The two seemed to vanish into thin air.

Tonight, from Chicago, Lake County, Illinois, coroner Dr. Richard Keller; in San Francisco, victims` rights advocate Marc Klaas; defense attorney Daniel Horowitz; psychotherapist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

But first, let`s go to CNN correspondent Jonathan Freed. He is there in Zion.

Jonathan, hello, Jonathan. Bring us up-to-date.

JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Nancy. This is one of those stories that is just every parent`s nightmare. And so far, it`s that kind of a worst-case scenario that`s come true.

Yesterday afternoon was the last time, Nancy, that anybody saw Laura Hobbs, who`s 8-years-old, and Krystal Tobias, who was 9-years-old. They were seen riding their bikes around the neighborhood as they usually did. These were two kids who were described as best friends, Nancy.

They were seen, according to neighbors, waiting in front of somebody`s house for another little friend to show up, doing the typical type of thing that kids of that age will do on a Sunday afternoon.

And it was a nice day yesterday. It was a beautiful day in the Chicago area. So no surprise that they were outside.

But the kids went missing. They did not come home. And both of their parents reported them gone yesterday evening, at which point a search went out, including dogs looking for scents. The entire scene that you are accustomed to seeing.

And then you fast forward to this morning, Nancy, at around 6:00 a.m. And that is when somebody walking through a wooded area near Beulah Park here in Zion -- which, as you pointed out, is about 45 miles or so north of downtown Chicago -- this person discovered the two bodies which later today were confirmed to be the bodies of the two missing girls.

GRACE: Jonathan, the two little girls not only best friends, but are they in the same class together at school?

FREED: Well, we know that they were at the same school together, both of them in the second grade. And the superintendent of the schools came out today and said that these two kids were really precious children, that they`re going to be missed dearly by their teachers, by their classmates.

They were described as artistic. One of them was even said to have potential to go on and really have a career as an artist. Even as early as 8- or 9-years-old, these were two of the type of kids that really stand out.

GRACE: Let`s go to Lake County coroner Dr. Richard Keller. Dr. Keller completed the autopsies on the two little girls just before he drove to Chicago tonight.

Welcome, Dr. Keller. Thank you for being with us. I understand the little girls` cause of death, multiple stab wounds?

DR. RICHARD KELLER, LAKE COUNTY CORONER: Yes. That`s true. They had been stabbed multiple times. I`m not necessarily at liberty to discuss how many times because the police are going to be using, you know, that information as part of their investigation.

GRACE: To Marc Klaas. Mark, I find that highly significant, multiple stab wounds. You know what it means. Explain.

MARC KLAAS, VICTIMS` RIGHTS ADVOCATE: Well, it seems to me, as it probably does to you and others, that this is some kind of a rage killing, that perhaps whoever murdered these children had something against one of the family members of one of the girls. The other girl happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

But we have to understand that the control factor is multiplied by two in this situation. Most people that would kill anybody, whether they`re an adult or a child, particularly using a knife, are going to go after one victim at a time. But when you have two together, it becomes increasingly difficult to be able to control those individuals. So this is just a horrific crime on every level. And it`s almost beyond reason.

GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig. Doctor, I understand what Marc Klaas is saying about this being a crime of rage. And that is very true when you have multiple stab wounds on either victim.

But I find it very difficult to believe it`s because someone had something against an 8-year-old or a 9-year-old girl or a member of their family? There`s all types of rage that Marc Klaas is talking about.

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Right, it`s true. That`s true. Well, my first thought was that there was some type of sexual predator on the loose and there was some sexual component to it -- I don`t know whether this person had sex with the girls or not -- but that there was some type of struggle that went on that was somehow sexually related, and that`s why there was an overkill quality to it.

GRACE: Very often, Robi, you`re right. When you see a frenzied murder such as multiple stab wounds it accompanies a sex act.

To Dr. Richard Keller. He`s the Lake County coroner with us tonight. Doctor, was there any evidence of a sex attack on the little girls?

KELLER: No, there is no evidence of any sexual act or attack that we found on autopsy.

GRACE: Doctor, there have already been reports that have been released that police believe the little girls were killed there in Beulah Park, that they were killed where they were found. What would lead police to believe such a thing?

KELLER: Well, I mean, there was certainly no evidence that they had been moved. There were the findings that one would expect, as far as the blood loss from the children there at the scene in the wooded area.

GRACE: Exactly.

You know, Daniel Horowitz, having prosecuted many murders, pretty often you can tell if the victim was killed on the scene, just as the doctor has told us. You will find the blood flow there. That indicates that they were killed there. If they`re dumped, bodies are dumped there, you will see signs of that on the bodies.

My question to you, Daniel Horowitz, and you`ve defended a lot of murder cases, is where this is going. Of course, everybody starts with the family first. But it`s my understanding that the family members all had alibis.

DANIEL HOROWITZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Nancy, the most frightening thing about this case is the thought that there is no sexual motive, no family motive, nothing that gives us the slightest clue as to who did this. What if this is our worst nightmare, somebody who just likes to kill children and leave them in a horrible condition?

GRACE: Daniel, take a listen to this.


DOUG MALCOLM, ZION, ILLINOIS, POLICE CHIEF: At approximately 8:50 last night, the Zion Police Department received a phone call from the mother of a juvenile. Shortly thereafter, another mother called us and reported her daughter missing. Apparently, these girls were best friends and had last been seen riding their bikes together earlier in the afternoon.


GRACE: So Jonathan Freed -- Jonathan is a CNN correspondent -- they were out riding their bikes together, you know, about mid-evening, it was the end of the day, between 5 and 7 o`clock, as I understand it.

Someone had to take them off their bikes, or take the bikes with them. And that would be quite a struggle, unless the girls knew the perpetrator. Can you imagine snatching two girls on a public street off their bikes and getting them into a van or something?

FREED: Well, Nancy, a couple of things I think we should clarify at this point. We`ve heard a number of theories that perhaps there was rage involved. There was even a suggestion of whether or not the family members themselves are suspects.

Here is what we know: We know that an 8-year-old and 9-year-old girl were stabbed to death. The coroner is telling us that there is no evidence of sexual assault. These things we know. We know that the girls went missing yesterday afternoon. And we know that so far, Nancy, the police have not given us any suggestion whatsoever as to who they think might be behind it.

Everything else is purely theory at this point. And these are not theories that I`ve heard coming from the police department, at least not openly.

GRACE: You know what? You`re right, Jonathan. There are theories and reports flying everywhere. But luckily with us tonight, Jonathan Freed of CNN and the Lake County coroner, Dr. Richard Keller, to set the record straight.

Two little girls, best friends, 8- and 9-years-old, their bodies found today in Beulah Park near Zion, Illinois. Stay with us.


KELLER: The cause of death appears to be stab wounds. And I know one of the questions that was out there was about sexual assault. We have found no evidence of sexual assault on exam.




MALCOLM: At about 6:04 this morning, an individual found two juvenile bodies in a heavily wooded area in the north part of our city. These bodies of these kids ended up being the same two girls that were reported missing yesterday.


GRACE: It`s hard to take in for most of us tonight that he`s talking about these two little girls, 8-year-old Laura Hobbs, 9-year-old Krystal Tobias. Their bodies found around 6:00 a.m. this morning in Beulah Park, Illinois.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to go straight to CNN correspondent Jonathan Freed.

Jonathan, how far were the bodies found from their home? I mean, could they have biked here? And were the bicycles with the girls?

FREED: Well, it`s not entirely clear. They were trying to get into that a bit today at the news conference. And if the coroner`s still with us, perhaps, he can elaborate a little more.

But our general understanding from the news conference is that they lived in the general area of this park, that they were biking through this wooded park area, that there were some dirt paths and paved paths, and that their bikes were found something like 50 yards in from one of the paths and that their bodies were found somewhere around, I think, 30 yards in front one of the paths.

I may have that math wrong. And again, if the coroner is with us, perhaps he could be more specific.

GRACE: I will do that exactly, Jonathan.

To Dr. Richard Keller, Lake County coroner. So, Doctor, if this was within biking distance of their home, it`s entirely possible that they were not snatched off the street. I mean, their bicycles were there in the park. They clearly rode their bikes through the parks, had gotten off their bikes to go play, as children will do.

Is this an opportunistic crime? Is this a random crime of opportunity? Some nut job there in the park that saw them?

KELLER: I mean, you know, they certainly were near their homes. And I think it`s not unusual for a lot of people to use that park for biking. It`s a bike path. And you know, whether it was some opportunistic event or something else, you know, hard for me to speculate.

GRACE: But that just doesn`t make sense, Doctor, because if there`s no sex attack, there`s clearly no robbery of an 8- and 9-year-old girl. Their bikes are right there. Who would see these girls in the park and suddenly decide, "I`m going to stab two girls to death and not leave a trace, not a clue, nothing," Doctor?

KELLER: You know, it`s difficult to know for sure. I have kids of my own. And you know, this is everybody`s worst nightmare, that this sort of thing, you know, would happen.

But I think that it`s really kind of early in the police investigation into what`s going on. And I think we need to wait and see what the major crime task force comes up with.

GRACE: But definitely no sex attack. You`re positive about that?

KELLER: Yes, no evidence of that at all.

GRACE: Well, you know, Marc Klaas, that throws this case into an entirely different category, because when you have a sex attack or a robbery, you get some general gist of motive. Here, no gist of motive whatsoever. And bottom line, Marc Klaas, how often do you get a random killer?

KLAAS: Well, I`ll tell you what, Nancy, generally, when children are murdered, it`s either involved in some kind of a sexual molestation of the children or it`s a botched ransom. We see those things less and less, which is why I`m going to stand by what I said earlier, that somebody knew one of these kids.

GRACE: Botched ransom?

KLAAS: They were able to control...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, botched ransom? You see two kids coming willy-nilly through the park and you suddenly think, "Hey, I don`t know who they are. But I`ll stab them to death and do a ransom."

KLAAS: I`m saying that when children are killed, those are the circumstances under which they`re killed.


KLAAS: That`s all I`m saying. I`m not trying to say that this had anything to do with that.

But certainly, I think what this leads to, though, is people have to understand that we can never put the burden of child safety on the shoulders of the children. We can`t give them rules and think we`ve done enough. We can`t send them to these little self-defense courses that are springing up all over the place and that are so popular right now and think that any child is going to be able to defend themselves against a determined predator, when in this case we had two children, neither of which was able to defend herself.

GRACE: You know, Dr. Richard Keller, Marc Klaas is right. I grew up in a very rural area. We would ride our bikes so far away from home they`d have to blow the car horn for us to hear that it`s time to come home. And these are two little girls, minding their own business, riding their bikes.

Look at them, 8 and 9 for Pete`s sake.

Ellie, how old are -- 9-years-old. That`s what, the third-grade, right? Oh, gosh. Second graders?

Doctor, what kind of an area was this, this Beulah Park?

KELLER: It`s really a fairly rural area. It`s undeveloped for the most part, forest preserve with trees. And you know, this morning there were singing birds, and flowers, and that sort of stuff. So it`s really -- even though it`s in the middle of our county, it`s really pretty remote once you get inside the area.

GRACE: Doctor, take a listen to this.


MALCOLM: We do have two murdered children. And we don`t have anybody in custody, I`ll say that.

Right now, there`s no solid leads that we`re focusing in on. This is a heinous crime. It`s a crime against not only those kids but against all of us. And we`re doing everything. But right now, it`s just a broad investigation.


GRACE: That`s the Zion, Illinois, police chief.

Dr. Robi Ludwig, with us tonight, Dr. Richard Keller, who is the Lake County coroner. He performed the autopsies on these two young girls.

And we were talking before the show, you know, an autopsy is tough enough. But to perform an autopsy on two little children like this, how do you sleep at night, for Pete`s sake, Doctor?

KELLER: Well, I mean, it gets tough sometimes. You have to develop the ability to be able to dissociate yourself a little bit. I worked in an E.R. for 20 years and so I saw a lot there that also wouldn`t be easy to take home. You just have to learn not to take it home.

Even though I have a 7-year-old at home, you know, it may be a little tough tonight to sleep. But we`ll get...

GRACE: Yes, you`re not kidding.

Dr. Robi Ludwig, even though Dr. Keller is sure -- he`s examined the bodies -- that there is no sex attack, how does that play into your theory?

LUDWIG: Well, it`s very possible that there was no actual sexual attack. But whoever killed these girls somehow was sexually stimulated, that there was a sexual fantasy. And in order not to act out on that sexual fantasy, one possibility is that he killed these two children -- or she, but it`s probably most likely a man.

So that`s always a possibility. Just because a sex act didn`t happen, it doesn`t mean that the fantasy wasn`t a very real component in what happened.

And also, it was a deserted area. So even if one child were to scream and try to get help, it doesn`t sound like someone would necessarily hear them. So if somebody had pedophilia fantasies, they could hide there and look for children.

GRACE: Before we go to Jonathan Freed, CNN correspondent, Jonathan, what can you tell me about these two little girls, Krystal and Laura?

FREED: I can tell you that they were very much appreciated, warmly so, by the community in which they lived. The school superintendent came out today and made that very, very clear. You can`t fake that.

And she made it very, very clear that the teachers at the school, that her classmates, and other people that we`ve spoken to today who in some way knew these kids just spoke very warmly about them. These were not a couple of troublemakers, at least as far as we can piece together at this point.

GRACE: So precious.

And before I go to break, Marc Klaas, how old was your little Polly when she was murder?

KLAAS: Polly was 12-years-old when she was murdered. And like Polly, like this little girl, Polly`s killer did not come out of nowhere. Polly`s killer had a history. Whoever did this had a history. They`ll look at who might have committed similar crimes in the past, who has been let out of prison recently, the various offenders that live in and around the community.

They`ll break this thing. It might take awhile. But somebody`s going to be brought to justice for this heinous crime.

GRACE: And very quickly, Marc Klaas, you and I have thought it a million times. Who would kill an 8-year-old little girl?

KLAAS: Unbelievable.


Quick break, everybody. To "Trial Tracking": Prosecutors promising to retry Charles McCoy, Jr., the Ohio highway sniper. A judge declared a mistrial after four long days of deliberations. A jury couldn`t decide whether to send McCoy to a mental hospital or the penitentiary.

Well, the defense admitted McCoy was the shooter in 12 attacks in Columbus highways. But they said he`s innocent because he`s insane. Defense psychiatrists claim McCoy hears voices in his head and he believes other people can read his mind.

Well, McCoy managed to terrorized highway drivers for over five months in 2003 and 2004, and ultimately took the life of 62-year-old Gail Knisley.



DETECTIVE JIM BIGGS, RUIDOSO POLICE DEPARTMENT: They had been living together. They were married. He`s gone, as well as her vehicle`s gone. And the child is gone. So we certainly want to talk to them.


GRACE: We are going live to New Mexico tonight. A 16-month-old little toddler named Justin Black missing tonight, his mom found dead.

With us tonight in Santa Fe, New Mexico, state police public information officer Lieutenant Jimmy Glascock. In Albuquerque, KRQE-TV reporter Tim Caputo.

Tim, bring me up-to-date.

TIM CAPUTO, KRQE-TV REPORTER: Well, at this point, they`re still searching for the suspect. The baby was missing yesterday afternoon when a friend went to that woman`s house, Kristy Black`s house, last night, found her dead. There was a domestic, as you said, earlier in that day.

Right now, they`re searching. They saw the car a little bit south of Ruidoso, New Mexico, where that family had lived. And at this point, they`re really low on leads. I just spoke with the lead investigator who said they`ve received a handful of tips but nothing really concrete at this point. And they`re searching for him.

At this point, they don`t believe that there`s any reason to believe the child was harmed, but obviously they want to get this child, this 16- month-old child, back in the family`s arms as soon as possible.

GRACE: Lieutenant Glascock, the mom has been murdered. Why are you so convinced the little boy hasn`t been harmed?

LT. JIMMY GLASCOCK, NEW MEXICO STATE POLICE: That`s certainly our overall concern is Justin`s overall safety and well-being. And that`s why we want him brought back just as soon as possible.

GRACE: What car do you think they`re traveling in?

GLASCOCK: The best information that we`ve received so far in the investigation is that he`s possibly driving a 2000 model silver or gray Ford Mustang.

GRACE: 2000, what color?

GLASCOCK: Silver or gray.

GRACE: Silver or gray Mustang.

With us, Tim Caputo, as well as Lieutenant Jimmy Glascock.

Take a look at this baby. Boy, he looks like a baby doll. Justin Black, just 16-months-old, missing tonight. There`s an Amber Alert. Breaking news. Take a look. We`ll all be right back.


GRACE: This is Justin Black. He`s only 16 months old, last seen in Lincoln County, New Mexico, 20 pounds. His height is 2`6``. He looks like a baby doll.

Welcome back, everybody. We are bringing you breaking news of an Amber Alert tonight. This little boy has gone missing. His mom has been killed. Now, it`s my understanding, Lieutenant Glascock -- he`s with New Mexico State Police -- that police went to the home that afternoon around 1:00 p.m. on a domestic call. There was a verbal dispute. Police left. When they were there, they saw the boy. They saw the mother. Everything`s fine.

By 6:00, the mom is dead. The baby is gone. And the stepfather is gone, right?

GLASCOCK: Yes, that`s correct. It`s extremely concerning and disturbing.

GRACE: What was Ivan Villa`s relationship to Kristi Black?

GLASCOCK: We`ve since learned that they have been married approximately six months or since August.

GRACE: So, they are married. Is this his biological son?

GLASCOCK: No. Justin is not his biological son.


And very quickly to Tim Caputo, KRQE reporter.

Tim, I know we`re looking for a 2000 silver -- what`s the name of the car?

CAPUTO: It`s a Ford mustang, a 2000 Ford Mustang.

GRACE: Ford Mustang. Ford Mustang.

Who found Kristi black dead?

CAPUTO: At this point, they`re not saying. They`re saying a friend went to her condominium around 6:30 last night Mountain time, found it, called police, and that`s when the investigation started getting under way looking for the 16-month-old child.

GRACE: And, Tim, when was the vehicle last seen and when?

Take a look, guys, Ivan Villa.

When was the vehicle last seen and where?

CAPUTO: Well, the Amber Alert came out at around 9:30 last night. There was a sobriety checkpoint in the town just of Ruidoso. And they say, at 7:30, an officer there possibly spotted the vehicle and/or Ivan Villa at that point. They believe he was possibly heading towards El Paso or on to Houston. They say he`s got a lot of ties in Juarez, which is just over the El Paso border, El Paso, Houston, and a handful of other places, both in New Mexico and in Texas.

GRACE: And, Tim, very quickly, does Villa have a criminal record?

CAPUTO: None whatsoever. Police say it`s amazing they haven`t found any record on him whatsoever, just that domestic call they went out to on Sunday afternoon, which I found out was just a squabble between him and his wife about, they were hiding things. His wife hid the car. He hid her purse. And that is why they called police.

GRACE: Well, you know, I know you said it was a typical domestic. But not everybody has the police show up on their front door, Tim. So I guess, in that sense of the world, it would be typical. But, suddenly, she`s dead and the baby`s missing.


CAPUTO: Well, for the Ruidoso Police Department`s sake...


CAPUTO: They said, when they went to the house that afternoon, there wasn`t any signs of physical abuse or any kind of violence at the house. And that`s why they went on their way and later came back to find out it possibly turned into violence, what they believe.


CAPUTO: But they said, when they got there, this was nothing more than a verbal dispute.

GRACE: Lieutenant Jimmy Glascock with New Mexico State Police and Tim Caputo, KRQE, thank you, gentlemen.

Very quickly, Elizabeth (ph), could you show Justin Black one more time before we go to California?

This is Justin Black and his mom, Justin missing. Breaking news, Amber Alert tonight, on this 16-month-old toddler out of New Mexico.

Switching gears, let`s go across the country to Santa Maria, California.

Standing by, "Inside Edition" senior correspondent Jim Moret, defense attorney Anne Bremner in L.A., district attorney Debra Opri.

But first to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, what happened in court today?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, I`ve got to tell you, a whole string, a parade of Neverland employees, took the stand and scored some big points for the defense.

First of all, they said they never witnessed any inappropriate activity between Michael Jackson and young boys. They also went on to say that this accusing family had plenty of opportunities to leave Neverland if they wanted to, even though they claimed they were being held against their will. They used examples like shopping trips and a trip to the dentist`s office.

And, finally, they painted a very unflattering picture of this accusing family, saying the boys were very destructive and the mother wanted to get a job as a housekeeper at Neverland, saying she needed money.

GRACE: Well, Debra Opri, I know that these witnesses today stated they didn`t see any child molestation. But I`m looking at the transcript here. I`m sorry. I don`t see it. Were they actually in bed with Jackson and all the little boys?

DEBRA OPRI, ATTORNEY FOR MICHAEL JACKSON`S PARENTS: What do you mean, some of the boys who had testified earlier in challenging the 1108? I don`t understand the question.

GRACE: Well, for instance, the current accuser, the `93 accuser, who took the $20 million settlement.

OPRI: Right.

GRACE: The accuser after that that came into court and testified. So were these witnesses around for that?

OPRI: No, not at all. These witnesses were not there to say these things never happened. These witnesses are what I call the fill-in-the- color chart.

These were the chipping-away witnesses, Nancy, to say, you know that note that said don`t let them off the property? Well, here`s the explanation for that. And you know how well behaved they say the children were? Well, let us tell you our view of that. And the mother, she was free to come and go as she pleased. She could use the phone any time she wanted.

The chipping-away evidence that we`re seeing and hearing now, we may not understand in its totality right now that it doesn`t have a full meaning. But these witnesses are all serving a purpose in and of themselves. And they`re all showing a vastly different picture than the prosecution showed.

GRACE: Jim Moret, agree or disagree?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, I agree with Debra, except for one thing. You`ve got the shadow of last Thursday and Friday`s testimony, where you had two boys on the stand who admittedly spent dozens, if not hundreds of nights in bed with Michael Jackson. And that really is looming over this trial right now, because the whole tenor seems to have changed.

You really have to buy into this view that it`s OK to sleep with boys who are between 7 and 14 years old and say nothing happened and then everything`s is appropriate and that you didn`t molest them. And I think that the jurors may have a big problem with that.

GRACE: And speaking of the jurors, Anne Bremner, how are they reacting to these witnesses? I didn`t think any of these witnesses made points for the defense or against the defense. They were kind of filler witnesses.

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: And we hear reports of yawning and bored jurors and looking around and everything else. But it`s a long trial. Like Debra says, these are important witnesses. And the jurors will probably take their notes on the salient points and move on.

But they`re waiting for Macaulay Culkin, Liz Taylor, Jay Leno. They know there`s some coming attractions and they`re big.

GRACE: Well, I understood that some of the jurors were actually falling asleep today in the jury box.

BREMNER: It happens. You know, when you`ve got these important witnesses...


GRACE: Is that a yes or a no?

BREMNER: Well, yes, but the thing is, we`ve got important witnesses, but parts of it are dull, Nancy.


GRACE: OK, home run for the defense. They managed to put the jury to sleep.

Daniel Horowitz, response?

HOROWITZ: Well, Nancy, sometimes, you`ve just got to put on a lot of witnesses just to have the force, the weight of the witnesses.

When you prosecuted, Nancy, you loved it when the defense said, we`ll rely upon reasonable doubt and trust the jury to follow the instructions. It doesn`t work that way. Throw a lot of witnesses on just for the heck of it and then put on some really good ones that really are meaningful. That`s what you want to do.

To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist.

You know, these witnesses say, well, I didn`t see any molestation.

LUDWIG: Right.

GRACE: He wasn`t fondling anybody when I looked at him.

That is such total B.S., because child molestations, rapes, sex assaults go down in private places. They don`t happen on the park bench. They don`t happen in front of the courthouse. No, they happen behind closed doors. So, are you surprised?


LUDWIG: No, I`m not, and also that there`s a shame involved in sexual molestation. So, not only does it happen privately, but usually the children are not inclined to report it.

But what these witnesses were doing is that they were painting a very different picture of Michael Jackson. These are people who are up close and personal to him and are basically saying, here`s another picture of Michael Jackson that`s not so disturbed. Here`s how we viewed this woman, who is the mother of this son. She was not as nice as she`s being presented to be. And so they are basically...

GRACE: Oh, killer, not nice.

I don`t know how far that`s going to go with the jury, Jane Velez- Mitchell. The mom of the accuser is not nice. OK, I don`t think that qualifies as a felony or even a misdemeanor. Is it true that some of the defense witnesses today had to admit that they were once charged with trying to steal things?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, let me tell you, a lot of people have sticky fingers in this case. Everybody accuses the other...


GRACE: What is it with this case? Everybody has stolen something.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think that water reaches its own level. Like attracts like. And the cast of characters you are seeing in this case...

GRACE: Well, I don`t know what that means.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... not people you would want to spend a lot of time with.

GRACE: Well, Jane, tell me, what happened on cross? Who got accused of sticky fingers?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, actually, a lot happened on cross.

Yes, one of the witnesses said, don`t believe Adrian McManus. She was a housekeeper who testified she saw a couple of butt grabs by Michael Jackson. She said, Adrian McManus is a thief. In fact, she had a room filled with stuff that she had taken from Neverland and created a kind of shrine to all the memorabilia she had taken from Neverland.

GRACE: Freaky.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Then the prosecutor turned around and accused the woman who accused Adrian of stealing. And it went on and on like that, back and forth. Everybody was accusing everybody, it seemed, of stealing.

So, there were a lot of points made by the prosecution on cross. I thought the biggest point was the point that Tom Sneddon made when he was cross-examining Violet Silva, who is the current safety coordinator at Neverland. And he said, weren`t you quoted once as saying that you wouldn`t have your own children participate in activities at the ranch? And she said, yes, that is correct. It`s beyond my comfort level.

GRACE: Uh-oh. That didn`t help anything. And that`s from a defense witness. So, everybody is stealing.

So, Jane Velez-Mitchell, what have you swiped out of the courtroom? We won`t tell anybody.


GRACE: A couple of trial files, an armband, what?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`ve gotten a lot of candy from fellow reporters. And that`s what we eat in order to stay awake.


GRACE: We`re on to you, Velez-Mitchell.

Quick break, everybody. We`ll be right back.


RAYMONE BAIN, SPOKESPERSON FOR MICHAEL JACKSON: Michael wants the world to know that he did not molest any children. And I would say that he would not be opposed to testifying. If his defense attorneys feel that he shouldn`t, he won`t. And if they feel that he should, he will.




MARTIN BASHIR, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: Is it really appropriate for a 44-year-old man to share a bedroom with a child who is not related to him at all?

MICHAEL JACKSON, DEFENDANT: That`s the beautiful thing.

BASHIR: That`s not a worrying thing?

JACKSON: Why should it be worrying? Who`s the criminal? Who`s Jack the Ripper in the room? This is a guy trying to help heal a child. I`m sleeping in a sleeping bag on the floor. I give him the bed, because he has a brother named Star (ph). So, him and Star took the bed. And I`m on the floor in the sleeping bag.

BASHIR: Did you ever sleep in the bed with them?

JACKSON: No. But I have slept in the bed with many children. I sleep in the bid with all of them. When Macaulay Culkin were little, Kieran Culkin would sleep on this side. Macaulay Culkin was on this side. His sister`s in there. We all would just jam in the bed. And we would wake up at like dawn and go in the hot air balloon.


GRACE: Elizabeth, did I just hear him say, I sleep with all of them? Did I hear that? OK. That`s from the ABC version of the Martin Bashir documentary. That was shown to the Jackson jury.

Very quickly, straight back out to Debra Opri.

But hold on. Elizabeth wants to show you something, Debra.


OPRI: This woman is nothing to me but a breeder.

She`s still a breeder. She`s still a breeder, Nancy. Breeder. Breeder. Breeder. Breeder. Breeder. Breeder, Nancy.


GRACE: I`m almost afraid to ask you what you thought of the witnesses today. Woohoo.

OPRI: Well, let me just wrap up the Debbie Rowe. She`s still a breeder. What about the witnesses today? Go ahead.

GRACE: We`ll add that one on.

OPRI: Still a breeder.

GRACE: But, Debra, how can you act like it`s a big score for the defense that a witness comes on and says, I didn`t see him molest anybody? It`s just ridiculous.

OPRI: But you`re giving it one slant, Nancy.

What you need to see is the accumulation of the witnesses and the purpose they`re serving. Tom Mesereau is one of the sharpest defense attorneys I`ve ever seen. Tom Mesereau is not afraid of putting his witness on the stand. He`s not afraid of the attacks to credibility and the character attacks. He`s famous for it. He`s putting these witnesses on for a reason.

And as you chip away at the prosecution`s case, the note, don`t let them leave the property, the people, oh, yes, I saw him touching him inappropriately and I saw him touching him inappropriately, and the other people who said, I worked for him and it was terrible, what was going on, one by one, Tom Mesereau is going to condition the jurors to see Michael Jackson`s reality, a reality where he has chosen to live the life of a child.

Now, this is very important, very, very important. Michael Jackson has not been charged with lewd behavior. It is not a crime for him to be sleeping in the bed with boys. Is it morally reprehensible to some? I suppose it is. But it is not a crime. Is it a crime to give the kids candy and stay up at all hours? That`s all I`m saying. That`s all I`m saying.

GRACE: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Reverend Opri. That was a beautiful sermon. And maybe Mesereau was listening and he can use it in his closing argument.

OPRI: Hallelujah. Pass the candy.

GRACE: To Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, pass a note to the prosecution for me. Get ready for a cross- exam of Michael Jackson, because, in my mind, this list of witnesses today did nothing for the defense. They weren`t bad, but they weren`t good either, which in my mind is making it more and more possible, although I think it will be a fiasco, for Jackson to take the stand. So, ask Sneddon if he`s got his cross ready, Jane Velez.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, somebody has to explain to the jury, if the defense wants to win its case, why Michael Jackson sleeps in bed with young boys. If it`s not sexual, what is it?

Actually, his publicist, Raymone Bain, was asked by me and others today that question over and over again. And she said at one point she`d like -- Michael likes to see that everybody who comes to Neverland is happy and comfortable. And she also said that Michael Jackson looks at the world through rose-colored glasses. And she talked about the Beatles song -- or the John Lennon song, "Imagine." Imagine there`s no war. Imagine there`s no hate and said Michael Jackson`s philosophy is so different.


GRACE: That`s just a song.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is so different from the rest of us.

Well, that`s what I`m saying. Will they come up with some kind of explanation for his behavior? If it`s not sexual what is it? I think that`s absolutely the crux of this case. That is something that I think has to be answered in the jurors` minds.

GRACE: OK. Got it.

And, Daniel Horowitz, I`ve only got 30 seconds left. Final thought?

HOROWITZ: The big problem that Michael Jackson has, if he testifies, is, he`ll say, I slept with these kids to be comfortable because I like children. But, if that`s true, why not sleep with your own kids? Why other people`s kids? That`s a very tough question for him to answer.

GRACE: And if he were worried about everybody`s comfort, Jim Moret, why were they comfortable in his bed and the moms were comfortable across the street in the guest house?

MORET: I don`t know. I`ll tell you, frankly, I can`t imagine why they called these moms on the stand, because, basically, what you wondered is, how could these women do this with their own children?

Whether or not anything happened with regard to molestation, how could you allow your child to sleep in bed with somebody else? It seems incomprehensible.

GRACE: Well, of course, to me, that`s attack on the moms. I`m worrying about Jackson was up to. But I agree with you, Jim Moret. You`re right and the jury is going to be thinking the same thing.

Very quickly to tonight`s all-points bulletin. The FBI and law enforcement authorities across this country on the lookout for this man, James Bulger, wanted by the FBI in connection with a number of organized crime murders committed since the early `70s through the mid-`80s. Bulger, armed and dangerous, 75 years old, 5`8``, 155 pounds, white hair, blue eyes.

If you have any information call the FBI`s Boston office, 617-742- 5533. There`s a $1 million reward leading to the arrest of Bulger.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Stay with us.


GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people.

Take a look at Gail Parker, found murdered in Tucson, Arizona, `93, last seen outside a Circle K convenience store on Tucson`s South Side, 51. No weapon found, purse missing. Her daughter, Danielle (ph), desperate to find her mom`s killer. Her Mother`s Day wish, if you have any information on her mom, please call the Tucson Police Department, 520-791-4487.

Welcome back, everybody. Final thoughts, as we head straight back out to California.

Very quickly, Jane Velez-Mitchell, what`s next?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I guess everybody waiting to see if Macaulay Culkin takes the stand. Now, "Celebrity Justice," our sources tell us that he`s kind of getting cold feet, in the sense that he saw the cross- examination of the two other young men who took the stand and said nothing happened and maybe feeling, I don`t want to go through that.

GRACE: And Macaulay Culkin and possibly Michael Jackson.

Robi Ludwig, you`ve said all along that you thought Jackson may take the stand. And you`re starting to chip away at me.

LUDWIG: Well, because Michael Jackson really believes his story. And he really believes in what he`s doing. So, if he believes himself, he believes he can also convince the jury. And he also loves the limelight. And the jury is a limelight of sorts.

GRACE: Well, that much is true.

Debra Opri, final thought?

OPRI: I believe -- I`ve said it from day one, when everybody else laughed at me -- he would testify, because he has the story to tell.


GRACE: Debra, how did you manage to turn him taking the stand to being about you?

OPRI: I beg your pardon?

GRACE: OK. This is not about people laughing at you and now you`re right.

OPRI: Oh, no, no, no.

GRACE: Do you think he`s going to take the stand?

OPRI: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Yes, I do.

GRACE: OK. I`m holding you to it, Debra.

OPRI: And stop laughing at me.


GRACE: Debra Opri, Jane Velez-Mitchell and, of course, here in the studio, Robi Ludwig, thank you.

And, of course, we`ll be live tomorrow at the Santa Maria courthouse.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight, but, of course, my biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from around the world. Larry is on CNN.

And, remember, live coverage of Jackson tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. Hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And, until then, good night, friend.


International Edition
CNN TV CNN International Headline News Transcripts Advertise With Us About Us
   The Web     
Powered by
© 2005 Cable News Network LP, LLLP.
A Time Warner Company. All Rights Reserved.
Terms under which this service is provided to you.
Read our privacy guidelines. Contact us.
external link
All external sites will open in a new browser. does not endorse external sites.
 Premium content icon Denotes premium content.
Add RSS headlines.