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NANCY GRACE

Investigators Identify Child Porn Model; Developments in Michael Jackson Trial

Aired May 13, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news, child porn. Over 200 sexually explicitly photos of a girl as young as 9 years old flooded the Internet. It took an international manhunt over two years, but tonight, a break in the case.
And defense attorney Mark Geragos has resurfaced today in California courtroom. No, not for shoplifter Winona Rider or double killer Scott Peterson, but as a witness for the defense in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

And Daniel Hiers, once a respected police officer, now the focus of an intense search, wanted for alleged child molestation and the murder of his own wife.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

We go live to California and the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Week one wraps up with star witness Mark Geragos. And once a sworn police officer, Daniel Hiers on the run tonight -- take a look -- accused of the murder of his wife and the molestation of a little girl he met through a karate class. We need your help to find this fugitive, Daniel Hiers.

But first, breaking news in an international hunt for not only the victim of Internet child pornography, a 9-year-old girl, but perp.

Tonight, defense attorney Joe Episcopo in West Tampa, Florida. In Las Vegas, defense attorney Lisa Wayne. Psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall here in New York.

But first to CNN correspondent Dave Mattingly, joining us from Atlanta. Dave, bring us up to date on this case.

DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, this is truly an extraordinary case. Authorities in Toronto and in Orlando have been working on this. There`s been a national manhunt here in the U.S. and in Canada dating back almost two years, looking for this girl. And this is all we`ve been able to see and know about her, other than the fact that her photographs have been all over the Internet.

What Toronto police have been able to do is use a computer to try and take her out of some of the photographs that they saw on the Internet. They were able to take those photographs and reproduce what, in a sense, were a crime scene. So then they were able to go to U.S. authorities and say, We`ve got a tip that this girl might have stayed in a hotel in Orlando. So that`s when Orlando police picked up on it.

They have been searching high and low. They actually had a news conference last week or two weeks ago, talking about the need for more public input on this, and they`ve been involving multiple agencies.

GRACE: Right.

MATTINGLY: And come to find out -- come to find out, Nancy, that the FBI actually solved this case well over a year ago. They had taken a man into custody, and that he was actually sentenced to federal prison, where he is now in prison, serving a sentence of 15 years...

GRACE: But just...

MATTINGLY: ... and that the girl had been rescued.

GRACE: Just one moment. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DET. MATT ERWIN, ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: The offender in this case is believed to be in federal prison at this point, facing about a 15-year sentence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: You know, it`s amazing to me that the FBI could remove the girl from the photo and then take a look at the surroundings and determine what hotel she was at. How did they do that? And where had she been when all these explicit sex photos were taken?

MATTINGLY: Well, let`s make sure the credit goes to the right agency. The FBI was not the one who was doing this, it was actually the police at the child exploitation unit for the Toronto Police Department. They were the ones who came up with the idea to erase the victim from the photograph. They then decided, Well, we`re going to take this photograph public.

And this has been very important because in cases of child exploitation and pornography, they just cannot go to the public and show everyone the child`s face. So they`re very hamstrung in trying to track these children down. So with this idea, they had a picture they could go to the public with and say, Hey, have you seen anything in these photographs that jobs your memory? Somebody in the public recognized that bedspread from a resort in Orlando, and that`s how...

GRACE: Disneyland!

MATTINGLY: ... police got involved.

GRACE: Why are you saying "a resort in Orlando"? It was Disneyworld, right?

MATTINGLY: It was a Disney resort. They have many of them down there.

GRACE: Yes. Yes. Let -- let me go very quickly to Joe Episcopo, defense attorney out of Florida. Joe, Disneyworld, child porn photos taken, over 200, a . Why don`t you just say Disneyland? Joe, Disneyworld, child porn photos, taken over 200, a 9-year-old girl, flooding the Internet. This took an international manhunt, Joe Episcopo. Thoughts tonight?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, it seems to me there ought to be an exception to this rule that you can`t show the victim because she continues to be a victim and she`ll continue to be a victim until you can find her. So I think that this hard and fast rule needs some sort of an exception. And of course, the fact that it happened in Disneyworld is obviously the incentive. They bring these kids down there and they promise them that they`re going to go to Disneyworld after they do whatever it is they want them to do.

GRACE: And to Lisa Wayne. How difficult is it, Lisa, to actually prosecute Internet porn?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think they`re really difficult cases, Nancy, because, let me tell you, I see a defense arising as a result of the nature of this investigation. And that is, the FBI agencies -- law enforcement agencies, they can manipulate digitally these photos. That`s exactly the kind of defense that is used in these cases, that these photos may have been manipulated, that perhaps...

GRACE: Right.

WAYNE: ... the defendant or the suspect used the face, but he didn`t know anything about the body, or whatever. And so the nature of the investigation is also what leads to a defense in the case. And they`re very, very difficult for prosecution, and they`re very difficult for defense.

GRACE: Well, you`re right about that, Lisa, because, number one, it`s so difficult to track down the actual participants in Internet porn, especially child Internet porn.

Here in the studio with me, psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall. Bethany, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERWIN: The victim is apparently in foster care, and so I don`t -- I say we have identified her. I don`t know where she`s at. We are working on getting that information, and I understand that there may be ongoing charges.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And very quickly, back to you, David Mattingly, that first -- excuse me, Bethany Marshall. It`s hard enough to pin down child molestation...

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Right.

GRACE: ... much less child porn, on the Internet...

MARSHALL: Right.

GRACE: ... which is very often equivalent to child molestation.

MARSHALL: Right. Of course, it is. But what`s interesting is that voyeurism is a perversion, as well as pedophilia. So when you have pedophiles engaging in acts of voyeurism, the whole thing just escalates out of control. And did you know that rapists and child molesters watch porn more than normal men do, and also that one third of rapists and child molesters who are incarcerated report that they were incited by porn to commit their crime?

GRACE: And let me go back to David Mattingly, CNN correspondent. Is the perpetrator -- the alleged perpetrator in this case -- you told us he was behind bars tonight. Is he related to the girl?

MATTINGLY: Orlando police say that they`ve been told that he is her adopted stepfather. So yes, they`ve always believed that this was someone very close to her, and it turns out...

GRACE: Where is the girl?

MATTINGLY: ... probably, they were right.

GRACE: Where is the girl?

MATTINGLY: It`s possible the girl is in foster care, possibly -- we haven`t confirmed this -- in Pennsylvania, which they believe that`s where the victim was from. And that`s where the man is now serving his federal sentence.

GRACE: What do we know about the mother, if anything, in this case?

MATTINGLY: We don`t know anything about the mother right now.

GRACE: So she marries this guy, and then, allegedly, the guy takes her little girl, as young as 9 years old, to Disneyworld in Florida and takes over 200 explicit photos, sexually explicit photos of this girl, and she doesn`t know anything happened?

MATTINGLY: There were only a few photos taken of this girl at the resort that they can see. There were photos taken of this girl over a long period of time and...

GRACE: Well, that makes it even worse, David! Don`t you see that? I mean, how could the mother not know that all these photos were being taken, over 200 photos, of her little girl on the Internet?

MATTINGLY: The authorities have not said anything to us about anything about the mother or the home situation that the girl has had. Now that she`s been found and now it`s been made public that she has been found, those details might be coming out very soon.

GRACE: And back to Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst. You know, I know this guy is the alleged perp...

MARSHALL: Right.

GRACE: ... but somehow in here, I feel like the mother had to know what was happening...

MARSHALL: Right.

GRACE: ... or chose to be blind.

MARSHALL: Of course! The mothers always know. They may not know consciously, but they at least know unconsciously. And so in my professional opinion, the mothers are complicit in the crime. Of course. And usually, what you see with these mothers is they have a history of being molested, so they minimize what`s going on in their own lives, as well in as the life of the child.

GRACE: Well, tonight, a happy ending to one story that started off horribly wrong. This girl, the victim of over 200 sexually explicit photos on the Internet, we believe is in foster care tonight, the alleged perpetrator behind bars. And tonight, I`m looking for the mother. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP - "LARRY KING LIVE," DECEMBER 18, 2003)

MARK GERAGOS, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FORMER ATTORNEY: Michael has spent his entire adult life helping children. If you wanted to design a charge to try to hurt him, if you wanted to go out and try to hurt him in the worst way possible, this would be the charge. If these were true, Michael would be the first person to tell you this is outrageous, because he would never, ever want to see anybody hurt a child, and he never has.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Mark Geragos, star witness for the defense today. He entered the courthouse with his customary sunglasses and ever-present cell phone. Here you go, Mark. Keep it going, buddy! Nancy Grace calling Mark Geragos. Time to report to court. Another high-profile celebrity defendant!

OK. All joking aside, let`s go straight out to Santa Maria, California. Standing by, senior correspondent from "Inside Edition" Jim Moret. But first, to "Celebrity Justice" reporter Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, what the hey? Have you ever seen Geragos show up without his shades and his cell?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Oh, he was a rock star today in court. And you know what, Nancy? It really felt like Michael Jackson had two of the world`s most famous attorneys battling for him inside the very same courtroom, one of them, of course, from the witness stand. We`re talking about Mark Geragos, his former attorney, but still very much in Michael Jackson`s corner. And he deftly explained away what the prosecution calls a conspiracy by saying that it was, instead, a justified attempt to prevent a crime -- namely, a shakedown by the family accusing Jackson, saying, yes, he did order surveillance on the family to prevent them from selling their story to the tabloids, which he suspected they were about to do.

Now, on cross-examination, something truly wild happened. Geragos suddenly started saying, I can`t answer certain questions, certain questions, because Michael Jackson only gave me a limited waiver of attorney-client privilege. The judge looked like he was just hit by a thunderbolt. He turned to Jackson`s other attorney, Tom Mesereau, and said, You misrepresented this situation to the court. And it was just a shocking scene in court. The judge still has to decide...

GRACE: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... ultimately, what he`s...

GRACE: Jane!

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... going to do about that.

GRACE: Jane! Jane! How did the jury respond?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the jury was ordered out of court before the confrontation really got under way between the judge and Mesereau because the judge wanted to prevent the jury from being tainted by this wild development.

GRACE: Well, bottom line to Jim Moret. You`ve got Geragos on the stand, who did not just fall off the turnip truck, OK? He knows what he`s doing. We know Michael Jackson is the one who put him on the stand. We know that to do that, Michael Jackson had to waive the attorney-client privilege.

JIM MORET, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Right.

GRACE: So exactly what privilege is Geragos going to claim?

MORET: Well, Mark Geragos, before he started his testimony, he said, Your Honor, I just want you to know, I`m not allowed to talk until I have a written waiver in my hands, and I don`t have one. And Tom Mesereau stood up and said, Your Honor, I represent that I will give Mr. Geragos and the court and the prosecutor a written waiver. And so on that representation, Mark Geragos was under the impression that he had a knowing waiver from Michael Jackson. Remember, this is Michael Jackson`s privilege to waive, not Mark Geragos`s.

GRACE: Right.

MORET: And basically, on cross-examination -- not even on direct, but on cross-examination, after a break, Tom Mesereau handed Mark Geragos a document that basically said Michael Jackson waives the attorney-client privilege with respect to the period from February, 2003, to just after his arrest, December, 2003, and that`s it. And the only reason we knew about it is because the prosecutor asked Mark Geragos a question that had to do with this area outside. And the judge was, frankly...

GRACE: Well, hold on. Hold on.

MORET: ... furious, and he had every right to be.

GRACE: Hold on. Joe Episcopo, we`ve just had the wool pulled over our eyes. Because you know what this means? This means that they go in, Joe Episcopo, say, No, we want him to testify, we waive, we waive the attorney-client privilege, Geragos, get on the stand, Geragos gets on the stand, he goes all the way through direct, says everything the defense wants him to say. Then when it`s time for the prosecution to cross-examine him, he goes, (INAUDIBLE) that was a limited waiver. I can`t answer all these cross-exam questions. That is inappropriate!

EPISCOPO: I don`t think so. I think a limited waiver`s all right. I think it`s going to...

GRACE: Well, why didn`t -- why wasn`t that in place at the beginning, when the direct for the defense happened? Why did the prosecution learn only on cross that there would be a limited waiver? That is not fair play!

EPISCOPO: Well, you know -- no, let me tell you the mistake that was made here by the prosecution. Most bars require this waiver in writing. It should have been done from the beginning and it should have been exposed from the beginning. But the prosecution...

GRACE: Yes, you`re right. You`re right. That`s what we get for trusting the defense lawyers!

EPISCOPO: The prosecution screwed up. They made a mistake.

GRACE: Yes, they trusted...

EPISCOPO: And now they`re going to pay for it.

GRACE: ... what an officer of the court said. That is Mesereau and Geragos. That`s where they went wrong. They trusted their representation in open court.

EPISCOPO: No.

GRACE: Yes.

EPISCOPO: He didn`t misrepresent. He didn`t say...

GRACE: Jane Velez...

EPISCOPO: ... it was unlimited.

GRACE: ... question to you.

EPISCOPO: He did not say it was unlimited.

GRACE: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, listen, I...

GRACE: ... Velez-Mitchell, what was said?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Look, I think Tom Mesereau is a fine attorney, and I certainly wouldn`t be the one to say that that was anything but what he suggested, an accidental oversight and something that he didn`t plan, because, obviously, to say the contrary would be serious, indeed.

It obviously, however, seems, at least on the face of it, to work in the benefit of the defense, as you mentioned. They get through their direct. Geragos says everything he wants to say, lays out to this alternative to the prosecution`s conspiracy theory, and then suddenly refuses to answer the prosecutor`s questions about when did he learn certain things. OK, well, no, that`s after Michael Jackson was arrested. I can`t talk about that. Well, when did you learn about this surreptitious taping? When did you learn about this secretly recorded phone call? Oh, I can`t answer that question.

He said it several times, about a half a dozen times. So it really leaves the judge with a huge problem. Geragos is going to come back next Friday, and the judge has said each side has to submit briefs on what...

GRACE: Next Friday?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... they want to -- yes, because he has court on Monday. He has court back in, I believe, Orange County on Monday. So he`s got a trial to go to. And he even said to the judge, Listen, I could be in trouble with two courts. And the judge said, Well, which court do you want to be in trouble with?

GRACE: What kind of trial?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s -- actually, he said it`s been appealed all the way up to a very, very high court, and this is a very long-running trial and...

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa!

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... there`s a jury present...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait, wait!

VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... and it`s a serious situation.

GRACE: Appealed all the way to a higher court, but there`s a jury in play? How do you have an appeal going at the same time you`ve got a jury sitting? What kind of case is this? Is this civil or criminal?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Mark Geragos is a criminal defense attorney.

GRACE: No! No! No!

VELEZ-MITCHELL: My understanding is it`s a criminal proceeding with a jury under way in Orange County, and he has to be there on Monday. And so what happened is that the judge said, Come back here Friday. That gives them time to resolve this issue because they have to submit written briefs, each side, about how they want to handle this. Let`s say the judge decides to throw out all the testimony. Well, that could work to the defense advantage because they`ve heard everything they wanted them to hear. Now the genie`s out of the bottle.

GRACE: Well, Jim Moret, regarding where Geragos says he`s going next week -- I was there when he didn`t show up at the Scott Peterson sentencing, after all those...

MORET: I know.

GRACE: ... months of trial. Oh, yes. You were -- you were right there with me in courtroom. So when Geragos...

MORET: And frankly...

GRACE: ... says, I got to go, I want to know where you have to go, because Geragos is a criminal lawyer, but he`s also a member of the civil bar, as well. So under the rules of procedure, normally, a criminal case proceeds before and takes precedent over a civil case, such as a divorce jury or child custody case or a contract case. So I`m very interested to find out where Geragos is really headed on Monday morning. Do you have any idea, Jim?

MORET: Well, I don`t know if it`s civil or criminal, but he did say it`s a long-running trial. The jury is in place. And look, this judge was mindful of the fact that there are other jurors involved. He wants to accommodate those other jurors, but he`s got people who`ve been sitting here for 10, 11 weeks, and may be looking at another four or five weeks. And I think this judge was really trying to make an accommodation.

The reason why they settled on next Friday, frankly, is because this court was originally going to be dark next Friday, and Geragos was available next Friday. So the judge says, I`ll tell you what. Instead of having this court dark -- and the only reason it was dark is to accommodate one of the defense attorneys for another appointment. He said, Why don`t we bring the jurors in, and they can hear the rest of this testimony? It`ll give me time to get the points (ph) and authorities (ph) because this judge really wants to know, What am I supposed to do? He`s never been faced with this, and I suspect that...

GRACE: Yes, well...

MORET: ... most people have not been faced with this waiver.

GRACE: Frankly, Jim...

MORET: It`s very unusual.

GRACE: Jim, out of all the cases I have ever tried, I`ve never been snookered on this one. It`s new to me, too. I`m going to go on Lexis- Nexis in the commercial break.

Quick break, everybody.

MORET: Me, too!

GRACE: Very quickly, to trial tracking. Death by lethal injection. Convicted serial killer Michael Ross pronounced dead this morning, 2:25 AM. the execution at the prison in Summers (ph), Connecticut, was New England`s first execution in 45 years.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEBBIE DUPRIS, SISTER OF VICTIM ROBIN DAWN STAVINSKY: Finally, justice has been served. Our sister, Robin Dawn Stavinsky, is looking down upon us. She will rest easier knowing that the person who ended her life no longer has the privilege of having his own. I thought I would feel closure, but I felt anger just watching him lay there and sleep after what he did to these women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: No final words or statement from Ross, who admitted to raping and killing eight innocent women, including two 14-year-old girls murdered on Easter day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Mark Geragos wrapped up the first week for the defense in the Michael Jackson trial. He showed up ready for battle, with his shades and his cell. OK, we`re ready for court. I don`t know. Is that the Winona trial, Elizabeth, or the Peterson trial or -- we don`t know. It`s always the same shades and the same cell. Thank you, Elizabeth. That helps.

Here in the studio with me, psychotherapist Bethany Marshall. What effect will Geragos have on this jury?

MARSHALL: Well, Geragos has a certain amount of star power. And I think when he walks into the courtroom, it`s going to be like big daddy`s going to come in and set everything straight. So he`s going to help Michael Jackson. And I think, unfortunately, star power has worked against the victims in this case all the way around because we think of pedophiles in our society as men in trenchcoats lurking in dark alleys with dirt under their fingernails, and it`s not true. Pedophiles can be attorneys, mayors, politicians, bankers.

And so the fact is, the jurors are going to have to be educated and to think very carefully and to look beyond the star power to see that Michael Jackson could conceivably be a pedophile and a very famous attorney could conceivably be covering up for him.

GRACE: OK. I think I got that. That wasn`t psychoanalyst speak. Quick break, everybody. We`ll be right back. We are live in Santa Maria. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK GERAGOS, MICHAEL JACKSON`S FMR. ATTORNEY: Once and for all, we are no longer going to allow people to abuse this man. This is a gentleman who, I think, has been totally mischaracterized whether it`s in the media and anything else. This is a gentleman who, in my experience with him, is idealistic, he`s innocent, he is absolutely giving to the point where he doesn`t really care about what people think.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes. Jackson was giving all right. He gave Geragos a pink slip, along with Ben Brafman and then brought on Mesereau as his defense lawyer. OK, we see Geragos there ready for action. Got the cell, got the shades, let`s go to court.

Very quickly to defense attorney, Lisa Wayne.

What do you make of putting Geragos on the stand for the defense?

WAYNE: Well, you know, Nancy, one of the things I think that`s really important for the public to understand, and that is, I believe the prosecution dropped the ball, here. Under the rules, you and I both know, the defense has to give notice of all the witnesses they`re going to call. So, the prosecution knew Geragos was going to be called and they should have found out about this waiver way ahead of this trial, you know, before he came into this courtroom, before any of this occurred. So, they dropped the ball and, you know...

GRACE: Lisa...

WAYNE: It was a difficult thing...

GRACE: Lisa, Lisa...

WAYNE: They dropped the ball here. You know, they ought to had found these things out ahead of time.

GRACE: Let`s just clear out...

WAYNE: What?

GRACE: Clear the facts up. They asked. Correct me if I`m wrong, Jane Velez-Mitchell, before Geragos got on stand, it was established in court by a verbal representation by Mesereau that there was a waiver of attorney-client privilege. Yes, no?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Indeed, and it would be documented by the end of the day, that they`d have the letter by the end of the day. I think the big issue here, the big picture is that it`s getting really ugly. This is war. And if all of this looks suspicious, all you have to do is look at this trial brief that was filed by the prosecution earlier this week threatening to really bring out the dirty laundry to impeach any character witnesses that the defense might bring on to say Michael Jackson`s just a terrific guy, let`s say people like Liz Taylor, Quincy Jones, Stevie Wonder.

The dirty laundry, alleged list of dirty laundry, that the prosecution has put on this piece of paper is truly extraordinary. I wouldn`t even want to summarize it, I`d have to read directly, but it includes allegations of prescription drug addiction, allegations of hush money, all sorts of things. So, the trial`s getting, it`s getting ugly, it`s down and dirty.

GRACE: Well, when you say there`s a big list, and I see the document, it`s thick, it`s huge. Now, what we`re talking about, everybody, is the state wants to enter bad reputation; bad character evidence on Michael Jackson. Normally, that is not allowed. You are not tried in this country on your bad reputation. However, the state is arguing the defense has brought in already good reputation about how if philanthropic and wonderful and loving and caring Michael Jackson is, and now they can fire back. What else is on that list, Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I can tell you, they want to bring in some more 1108 witness information. They mention two other young men that may have been, quote, unquote, "special friends." They talk about the statement of LaToya Jackson, the defendant`s sister, who said, this is quoting, said on national television, she saw a payment of $1 million check to -- and I`ll cross out the name, "for the purposes of buying silence." Evidence that the defendant has taken numerous children into his room in bed while heavily addicted to Demerol and other controlled substances.

This is a very explosive information and that`s why I would rather have the piece of paper in my hand than just to try to summarize it because it is that explosive.

GRACE: Jim Moret, aside from what happened in court today, do you think Melville, Judge Melville, is going to let the state fire back to the good character with bad character evidence?

JIM MORET, SR. CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, he gave an indication early on and warned the defense, he said, if you try to bring in good character evidence, be warned that the prosecution will be able to rebut that. So, I think that was a hint of things to come. I don`t know if the judge will let all of the items that Jane was, you know, going over, there, but I think that when you put a couple of moms on and they say, well, we felt comfortable with our son sleeping in bed with Michael Jackson because he`s such a wonderful person, you know, the prosecution wants to be able to say to them, well what about -- would you feel comfortable putting your son in bed with a man who was accused of A, B, C, D and E? And they want to bring out these specific allegations of that 1993 case with that young boy that was settled for over $20 million. They want to go over the allegations one by one, because they want those people to come back, perhaps, only one or two of the witnesses and say, how do you feel about these allegations? Do you still feel comfortable with your son in bed with this person? And the answer, presumably, would be no.

GRACE: So, what do you think? Joe Episcopo, you`re a veteran defense attorney. I believe that the defense has brought in good character specifically, and not intentionally. You know, you can bring on good character witnesses and say, "Do you know Michael Jackson? How long have you known him? What`s his reputation in the community?" that is a legitimate good character witness. That`s when your client doesn`t have a criminal history and doesn`t have anything they want to hide. Here, by bringing, in my mind, Joe, the Bashir documentary outtakes talking about Jackson`s philanthropy, what a great guy he is, how he wants peace on earth, that`s all he cares about, that is good character, Joe.

EPISCOPO: No, it doesn`t fit the, well, the proper format. Remember, you have to say, OK friends, when you sit around in a group and you talk about Michael Jackson, what do you say about him? That`s the way it`s brought in. They haven`t` done that and Geragos wasn`t a character witness, either...

GRACE: That is a formal introduction of good character. Lisa Wayne, all the time, defendants, during their case, accidentally, there`s a slip and they bring in good character. They don`t mean to. They don`t want to. Believe me, every time I`ve had a defendant, I`m trying, and they bring up their mother, I have the rap sheet ready, because you know the mother is going to say "He`s a good boy, he didn`t do this" and then you have your rap sheet.

WAYNE: You`re totally right, Nancy, yeah. You`re totally right. I mean, it`s walking a very tightrope for the defense, and I think the door has been opened and I think once that door is open the prosecution opens it wide and flies right in there. And I think that`s what`s happened here and I think the judge will let evidence come in to negate and rebut all this good character.

GRACE: And you know what else, Lisa Wayne? About this waiver today, the defense got it over, all right? It may be something there is no remedy for. Geragos testified under direct -- under what the state thought was complete waiver of attorney/client privilege. When the water got hot on cross, he went, uh-uh, this was a limited waiver, I can`t talk about that. If they`re over the barrel, if the judge and the prosecution is over the barrel, I guarantee you, Melville is going to go ballistic on this, if he is caught in the law.

WAYNE: I, I -- right, right. And I don`t know if there`s such a thing, truly, as a limited waiver. I think once you waive that privilege, under most states in this country, you waive that privilege and it is waived, there`s not a limited situation, because it is unfair to the other side. Now, you know, frankly, Geragos, I think they knew about that and I knew that`s what they were going to do and at this point, I think, the only remedy could be a mistrial. I mean, you can`t really undo this. It`s either a mistrial or there is some other remedy here that we don`t know about...

GRACE: Yeah, but you know what Lisa? You`re right, I know that one of the major remedies would be for the state to request a mistrial. They`re not going to do that. That actually hurts the state. It sounds like a remedy, but for the state to have to start all over hurts the state.

WAYNE: Yeah.

GRACE: Very quickly, back out to Santa Maria, Jane Velez-Mitchell, if Geragos has the week of, he`s not coming back until Friday, what happens on Monday?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s an excellent question and I think the prosecution may be trying to -- excuse me, the defense may be trying to figure that out now. We had heard that Brad Miller, the private investigator, who was said to work for Mark Geragos, was going to be possibly the next to take the witness stand. Now, they don`t release their witness list, so all of this is relative conjecture. But, it will be very interesting to see how this week progresses, because, do you interview the next witness, which is kind of based on a witness who hasn`t really finished his testimony and finished his cross-examination.

GRACE: Yeah...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It, all of this, presents big problems for both sides, I think.

GRACE: Well, Jane Velez, you`ve got a very good grasp on trial strategy, because when you start taking your witnesses in piecemeal and out of order, you lose the cohesiveness of what you`re trying to present to a jury. It`s very bad to take witnesses out of order.

To Jim Moret very quickly. Did we find out today why -- why Geragos got the boot off the Jackson defense?

MORET: Well, I think we really know that, it`s because he was spending a lot of his time on the Scott Peterson case and Michael Jackson said, look, my life is on the line here too, you can`t do both, so you`ve to go. But, I`ll tell you something, I think in many ways Mark Geragos...

GRACE: But what about Brafman? Brafman wasn`t on Scott Peterson. He cleaned out house.

MORET: Well, Michael Jackson has a history -- that`s true, he has a history, though, of firing a number of people. If he hears things that he doesn`t like, he sometimes gets in a position where he fires them. He did that with former management, we`ve seen him do that with other attorneys. It`s just, it seems to me an M.O.

GRACE: It`s a certain erraticism on the part of the defense. Very quickly, psychotherapist, Bethany Marshall, aside from celebrity lawyer, Mark Geragos, in court today, let`s get down to the facts. Do you see any pattern of pedophilia in this case?

MARSHALL: Of course. I mean, he picks children between the age of 17 (SIC) and 14. When they hit 14, he drops them like a hot potato. Pedophiles want children who are within certain age ranges, and the cancer victim said at one point Michael Jackson was soliciting his attention and calling him all the time and then when he hit 14, he couldn`t get Michael Jackson to return his phone call for a certain period of time. So yes, that completely fits the pattern. And I think we just have to look at Never-Neverland and all those toys and everything that he has built to attract children, the arcades, the theater, the rides, the trains and, yes, of course this fits a pattern, because these are the things that Michael Jackson uses to attract children to his pad.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody.

We here at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, to help find missing people. Take a look at David Gonzales. David disappeared on a camping trip with his parents near San Bernardino, California, he`s just 9. Last seen July 31, 2004, blue T-shirt and gray sweat pants. Take a look at this boy. If you have any info on David Gonzales, please call the San Bernardino County Sheriff 909-356-3854. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: When Hiers didn`t turn himself in to face a second round of molestation charges; they came here to his home. They found his wife dead and Hiers missing, launching an international manhunt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That manhunt continues tonight. Tonight in Greenville, South Carolina, U.S. Marshal Johnny Mack Brown. But first, to CNN correspondent, Randi Kaye.

Randi, welcome. Bring me up-to-date, friend.

KAYE: Well let me tell you, the scariest part of this case, Nancy, is that it involves a South Carolina, a Charleston, South Carolina police officer, now a former police officer.

He befriended a young girl. There he, Daniel William Hiers, befriended a young girl in karate class, where the two met. They became fast friends. He would take her shopping, he would take her to and from karate class. And one day, this little girl comes home from school after seeing a video about inappropriate touching, she tells her mother that Daniel Hiers had been touching her, sometimes as often that is three times a week for a year-and-a-half.

Police say he was taking her to the Wal-Mart parking lot, there in town, and fondling her and even making her touch him. They charged him with lewd acts on a minor and when they were about to charge him with more serious charges of molestation, he did not show up in court to turn himself in, so they went to his house, and as you just heard, they found his wife, Mila, dead, Hiers missing. And that, indeed, launched the international manhunt.

GRACE: Incredible story. The guy is still missing tonight. He is a fugitive as of tonight. To Johnny Mack Brown.

Johnny, this guy is former law enforcement, he knows how to disguise himself and beat the cops at their own game.

JOHNNY MACK BROWN, U.S. MARSHAL: He certainly does, Nancy, and there`s no question in my mind he`s probably changed his identity from what we`re looking for now.

GRACE: You know what? I`m sorry. I couldn`t hear your last words. Would you repeat, Johnny?

BROWN: Yeah, I said, he`s probably changed his identity, because he knows we`re looking for him and he`s probably changed his -- probably grown a beard and changed his identity.

GRACE: A question to Bethany Marshall. He`s wanted on child molestation. Why kill his wife?

MARSHALL: Well, here`s what happened. If the allegations are true, this is a man who feels dangerously inadequate and was dependent upon a petrol car and a karate class as symbols of authority. When he was brought up on charges, he lost his job, his wife had to sell her car, because they couldn`t afford it anymore, he felt ashamed and humiliated. Shame was converted to rage and rage was converted to the wish to obliterate the person in front of whom he felt the most humiliated. And who was that? His wife. And why did he shoot her in the back of the head? Because he couldn`t bear to face her. And why did he run away? Because he can`t face the community.

GRACE: Very quickly, back to Randi Kaye, CNN correspondent. This little girl was clearly under age. How old was his wife, Mila, when he married her?

KAYE: Mila was 15. She was vacationing in Miami and that`s where the two of them met. And then she was from Brazil so he would go back and forth from South Carolina to Brazil. He did that for a couple of years. So, she was about 17, close to 18 when the two of them married. And from what I understand, from interviewing her sister, Alessandra, she -- her sister tells us that after Mila got back to the states with Daniel Hiers, that he eventually lost interest in her as she matured from a 17-year-old, 18-year-old into a woman, he lost interest with her and their sexual relationship failed as a result.

GRACE: Bethany?

MARSHALL: The reason he lost interest is that in order to maintain his position of power, he needed younger and younger and younger women. So, you see him go from a 15-year-old, she starts to grow up, then he needs to a 9-year-old. By the way, I hear that he molested the 9-year-old some of the times in the patrol car, which is the symbol of authority.

GRACE: To Johnny Mack Brown, U.S. Marshal. Is Hiers considered dangerous?

Elizabeth, could you show that picture again, please?

BROWN: We consider him, Nancy, armed and dangerous. And again, he`s an 11-year veteran police officer. He knows the ropes, he knows the tactics and...

GRACE: OK.

BROWN: We do consider him dangerous.

GRACE: And, back to Randi.

Where was he last seen, Randi?

KAYE: Last seen -- I do want to mention, first of all, that this is a manhunt, but he has not been found guilty. There is a warrant for his arrest for both molestation and...

GRACE: Right. These are all alleged crimes tonight.

KAYE: Right, right. But, he was last seen, actually, on surveillance video captured at a gas station, a convenience store. He walked in, he used an ATM. There it is right there. He walks in, very calmly, withdraws hundreds of dollars. And here, you`ll see him wave to the cashier on his way out, and gets into a car, apparently his wife`s car, according to police. The car hasn`t been seen since. Daniel Hiers hasn`t been seen since and the gun used to kill Mila, his wife, has not been found either.

GRACE: I`ve only got a few seconds left. Bethany, why is he so calm, even jovial?

MARSHALL: Because these type of murders, sudden murders, feel tremendous relief after the commission of the crime and the relief lasts hours, weeks, sometimes even months, because they`ve gotten rid of the woman who makes them feel humiliated.

GRACE: Quick break, everyone. And to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Zahidul Islam, a former doctor. Islam, wanted in connection with the `96 rape of a female patient at a Philadelphia hospital patient: 5`5", 160 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. Take a look. If you have any info on Islam, call the FBI at 215-418-4000.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial, weekdays 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern. "Court TV`s, Closing arguments." Please stay with us as we remember an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories, and more important, the people who have touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE (voice-over): We only knew her by the name Precious Doe for many, many years. Her remains found without a head, but now we know her name. This little beauty is Michelle Marie (SIC) Green. May she rest in peace.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I challenged the media and the community to put this story in the front of the news. I said, there`s no way a child should be discarded like trash...

GRACE (on camera): And you never gave up. You never gave up.

Two second grade girls brutally beaten and stabbed to death while out riding their bikes. What was this guy doing out of jail? Somebody, help me, for Pete`s sake. He had driving license suspended, marijuana, fugitive from justice, assault with bodily injury, resisting arrest, evading police. It goes on. One of these assaults was with a chainsaw. A chainsaw!

A missing 16-month-old toddler`s mom found strangled to death. The search for little Justin Black turns desperate. Police believe they`re with Christy Black`s husband, Ivan Villa. Villa wanted on felony kidnapping charges.

And to Michael Jackson`s sex trial. Macaulay Culkin, big screen star, on the stand today for the defense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I thought Macaulay Culkin was charping, he was appropriate, he was a great, great witness. When he came into that courtroom, I understand, the jury perked up, the audience perked up. Everybody loved him.

GRACE: Death by lethal injection. Serial killer Michael Ross bragged that the rape and murder of eight innocent women really wasn`t that many. His killing spree started in 1981 on the campus of Cornell University with the rape and murder of Dzung Ngoc Tu.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ever since we lost her, there has been empty space in our family. I hope that she has peace.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: May they rest in peace. I want to thank all of my guests tonight. My biggest thanks is to you, for being with us and inviting all of us into your homes.

Coming up, headlines around the world and Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here, 8:00 sharp Eastern on Monday. And until then, good night, friend.

END


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