Return to Transcripts main page

Nancy Grace

Onstott Tries to Break Out of Prison; Week Two for Defense in Michael Jackson Trial

Aired May 16, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the 16-month-old toddler we told you about Friday night has been found alive in Mexico, while tonight police double their efforts to find the suspected kidnapper, Ivan Villa. Now, the baby`s mom, Kristi Black, was found strangled when little Justin disappeared.
Plus, a convicted sex offender arrested for the murder of 13-year-old Sarah Michelle Lunde tries to make a jailhouse break down in Florida.

And it is week two for the defense in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

We go live to California and the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

And in Florida, 13-year-old Sarah Michelle Lunde`s accused killer, David Onstott, attempts a prison escape. Now, Onstott could face the Florida death penalty if convicted of the 13-year-old`s murder.

But first, a miracle tonight. Just hours after a toddler`s mom, murder victim Kristi Black`s, funeral took place, her baby, Justin, is found alive across the border in Mexico. Tonight, a massive manhunt still underway for the boy`s stepfather, Ivan Villa.

With us tonight in California, Dee Dee Black, Kristi`s mother, grandmother of Justin; in West Palm Beach, Florida, defense attorney Michelle Suskauer; in New York, defense attorney Alex Sanchez; and psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

But first, let`s go out to KOA-TV reporter Jeff DeMars. He`s joining us from New Mexico.

Jeff, bring me up-to-date. Where was baby Justin found?

JEFF DEMARS, KOA-TV REPORTER: Baby Justin was found about 14 hours from the last time somebody saw him down in Durango, Mexico, which is about ten hours south of the El Paso, Texas, and New Mexico border. And he was found on Friday, as you said, just hours after the funeral, sort of bittersweet for the family there.

But right now, they`re still looking for Ivan Villa, as you said, in an international manhunt, as well, down in Mexico, and up here in New Mexico, and possibly -- I spoke with FBI this morning -- they think he may have come back to the United States. He`s a U.S. citizen. They believe he`s familiar with the U.S. more than he would be with Mexico. So it`s possible he may have crossed that border back here in the United States.

GRACE: OK, you know what? This is what I don`t get, Jeff DeMars. Have you ever gone to K-Mart and used a bad check, maybe get a bad response on your credit card? Where are all the photos? How is this guy getting back and forth through the Border Patrol at Mexico? I mean, he is a suspect in the kidnap of this 16-month-old toddler, the mom found dead.

DEMARS: And that`s a good question. I don`t think there`s any photos, as you said. But there have been public reports. Initially, when they thought that the baby went across the border with Ivan, initially, they may have driven across. And then somebody said they had spotted them coming back across the border to El Paso.

But that information, I mean, it`s really vague. It just depends on people calling in, basically. They did find the missing car down in Juarez. So they find a missing car that was used in the kidnapping or they believe was used in the kidnapping, and then they find the child ten hours south of that.

GRACE: Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, forget about the car. Forget the car. I want to hear about this baby.

This is a shot of baby Justin. Baby Justin, safe tonight. He was found in Mexico. We told you about him on Friday night. His mom was found strangled to death. Baby Justin, alive, found in Mexico. Ivan Villa, still wanted for kidnap.

What were the conditions? Can you tell me, Jeff, as to how baby Justin was found? Where was he?

DEMARS: He was found just south of the New Mexico-Texas border, about ten hours south. And then they flew him up back to the United States with family, and family, of course, greeted him as he exited the airplane -- or exited...

GRACE: Well, was he in a home? Was he in a home? Was he in a car? Was he dropped off at a hospital?

DEMARS: You know what? And those are great questions. And the FBI right now is not answering those questions for one reason or another, possibly investigation, possibly they may be on the heels of Ivan Villa and therefore not really giving us any indication as to...

GRACE: You know what, Jeff? That`s a very, very good point. You`re right. The FBI not releasing a lot of information tonight.

With us, reporter from KOA-TV, Jeff DeMars. Jeff, don`t move.

I`m now hooked up to a very special guest, the mother of murder victim Kristi Black. This is the grandmother of little Justin.

Ma`am, thank you for being with us. I know, after all you`ve been through, finding out about your daughter`s death, this is just a miracle for you that you have baby Justin alive.

DEE DEE BLACK, MOTHER OF KRISTI BLACK: We`ve had several miracles, Nancy. And first, I want to thank the media. I want to thank the FBI. I want to thank Detective Jim Biggs out of Ruidoso Police Department. He`s the detective in charge. And all the prayer networks from all over the country, all over the world.

The miracles that have happened -- and it`s been more than one -- wouldn`t have happened without the support and help from everybody. Thank you, too.

GRACE: Dee Dee, you don`t have to thank us. We`re just fingers crossed. Where do you think Ivan Villa is tonight?

BLACK: I don`t know. But I try to think of his mind-frame and, with everything that`s happened, the walls closing in on him. He`s going to be limited on where he can go. So I really don`t have a clue if he`s in -- I don`t have a gut feeling if he`s in the states or in Mexico.

GRACE: We`re showing you a picture of Ivan Villa, 22-years-old, 5`10", 190 pounds, black hair, brown eyes, usually wearing a goatee.

Dee Dee, I know you`ve just gone through the funeral of your girl, Kristi, baby Justin`s mom. How did you find out Kristi was dead?

BLACK: Her dad called me. I guess when they found her he was in Ruidoso there. He trains race horses on the track. And he had gone to the apartment. I`m assuming he was at the apartment. He called me and told me.

GRACE: How long had he been with Kristi?

BLACK: Well, all her life, up until about the last four years. She moved to New Mexico when she was 15, almost 16, actually, 16, had just turned 16. So she had been with me the whole time up until that point.

GRACE: Where is Justin tonight?

BLACK: He`s in Las -- I`m assuming Las Cruces and the Las Cruces Child Protective Services have him. When I talked to him today, I`m just assuming the Las Cruces area, they placed him somewhere there.

GRACE: We are taking...

BLACK: I was real concerned. Go ahead, I`m sorry.

GRACE: We are taking a quick break. With us tonight, Kristi Black`s mother. Kristi Black found murdered in her home, her baby missing. There has been an international search for baby Justin Black.

A miracle has happened. The baby has been found in Mexico. Still missing, his suspected abductor, his stepfather, not his biological father, Ivan Villa. Still no arrests or suspects announced in the murder of Justin`s mother.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLENE ANDERSON, JUSTIN BLACK`S GREAT AUNT: This afternoon, I kept getting all these phone calls. People asking me or telling me, "How do you feel?" You know, asking me, "How do you feel, because now that you, you know, found out Justin`s fine?" And I hadn`t heard anything yet. So I had to call and confirm it myself. And sure enough, they had released it. And before I could even get off the phone, it was all over the media.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Baby Justin Black has been found in Mexico. His mother`s murder still remains a mystery. Let`s go straight out to KOA-TV, Jeff DeMars, reporter for them.

Jeff, tell me about the murder of Kristi Black. How was she murdered? Where was she murdered? And how close in relation to Ivan Villa allegedly taking the baby with him?

DEMARS: Right. Now, all of this started with a phone call from Kristi herself, a 911 call around 1 o`clock that Mother`s Day afternoon with a domestic dispute between Ivan Villa and herself. What that entailed, apparently, there was some talk about a purse and money and that sort thing.

But then, later on that afternoon, police had to return after they got another phone call around 6 o`clock that evening, 7 o`clock that evening, saying that her friend had found her dead. Now, of course, at that point, police arrived at the scene, found her in a back bedroom allegedly strangled. That`s what preliminary autopsy reports indicate.

And then what they didn`t find was Villa and then the son, as well. Justin was gone. And they were both gone in a gray Mustang. So an Amber Alert went out about two hours after police discovered her body dead, about 9:00, 9:30 New Mexico time. Amber Alert, of course, nationwide.

And it wasn`t until a few days later that they ended up finding that gray Mustang in Juarez, Mexico. It was Friday where they found -- just this past Friday, where they found baby Justin just ten hours south of the Mexican-American border.

GRACE: Gotcha.

DEMARS: And now still an international search for Villa.

GRACE: And according to Jeff DeMars and other sources, the FBI is not releasing a lot of details about where baby Justin was found.

Hey, Elizabeth, can you put up that shot of baby Justin? He looks just like a baby doll, a little doll. He`s just beautiful. And I`m wondering tonight whether he was found at a hospital, an orphanage, was he left at a shopping mall, was he left at somebody`s house? We don`t know. But baby Justin, I told you about him all last week, has been found alive in Mexico.

Very quickly, back to Justin`s grandmother, the mother of murder victim Kristi. What I`m trying to find out is the nature of the relationship between Ivan Villa and your daughter, Kristi. What was that relationship?

BLACK: Well, they had been -- they had gotten married last August. They actually only spent a few months physically together. His job had transferred him from Ruidoso to Farmington, to the race track there. And then, from that meet, they transferred him down to southern Texas.

So at that point, he moved to southern Texas. And Kristi moved to El Paso. She didn`t want to live in southern Texas. So she had just -- the Sunday before Mother`s Day was moving back in with him in Ruidoso. He had transferred from southern Texas back to Ruidoso.

GRACE: Dee Dee, hold on. Take a listen to the police lieutenant.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Lieutenant Glascock, the mom has been murdered. Why are you so convinced the little boy hasn`t been harmed?

LT. JIMMY GLASCOCK, NEW MEXICO STATE POLICE: That`s certainly our overall concern, is Justin`s overall safety and well-being. And that`s why we want him brought back just as soon as possible.

GRACE: What car do you think they`re traveling in?

GLASCOCK: The best information that we received so far in the investigation is that he`s possibly driving a 2000 model silver or gray Ford Mustang.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Dee Dee, the grandmother of little Justin, Dee Dee, why would he take the baby away from the mom?

BLACK: Well, I have a feeling he wouldn`t have left Justin there by - - I know he wouldn`t have left Justin by himself, for one thing. And then, with Kristi being deceased, he definitely wouldn`t have left him. He loved Justin and was going to try and take the best care he could, which he ended up doing, thank goodness, because we got him back safe, and healthy, and alive.

So there`s no way he would have left him in the apartment by himself, if he was the only live person there.

GRACE: Back to Jeff DeMars...

BLACK: I think that`s why he took him.

GRACE: ... with KOA-TV. What is being done tonight to find Ivan Villa?

DEMARS: Ivan Villa, there`s an international manhunt out right now. FBI are searching, I imagine, on the local border. We spoke with them this morning again. And they said that it`s possible he may have crossed the border once again because he is a U.S. citizen, more familiar with the United States.

But they`re also looking into areas south of the border in Mexico. So there is an international manhunt, if you will, for him right now.

GRACE: I want to thank Jeff DeMars, reporter with KOA-TV, as well as Dee Dee Black, the mother of Kristi Black, and the grandmother of baby Justin.

Ma`am, I`m so happy for you that you have Justin back in the states.

BLACK: With everything that happened with Kristi, this is the bright light of everything. So we are, too. And again, I can`t thank the media, and the police departments, and everybody enough for, you know -- everybody, people we didn`t even know that have been praying and thinking positive thoughts for us. That`s been a big part of this, the support system.

Thank you, Nancy, too.

GRACE: Oh, yes, ma`am. Thank you for being with us tonight. And we`re not going to let go of this case, Ms. Black, thank you.

Quick break, everybody. And we are going to "Trial Tracking" very quickly. Just hours ago, a California jury hands down the death penalty for convicted child molester Alejandro Avila. Last month, the same jury convicted Avila of the kidnap, sex assault, and murder of 5-year-old little Samantha Runnion.

The jury deliberated two long days before bringing home a unanimous verdict that Avila should go to death row. Samantha, kidnapped outside her California home, 2002. Samantha`s body, unclothed, found the next day 50 miles from home. Avila`s sentencing set for July 22.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN RUNNION, MOTHER OF SLAIN SAMANTHA RUNNION: He is guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. And that feels really good, because nobody should get away with this. And in honor of Samantha, in honor of Jessica, and Molly Bish, and Polly Klaas, and Adam Walsh, how many children do we have to take away before we as Americans get organized? We outnumber you so many times over. There is no excuse, and we`re not going to let you get away with this anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody.

The Michael Jackson child sex trial rages on. The defense not going down without taking plenty of swings at the state. Let`s go straight out to California.

Standing by in Santa Maria, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, what happened in court today?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, as you said, a slew of defense witnesses punching holes in the prosecution`s case. At the very time that this family accusing Jackson says it`s being held against its will at Neverland, a dentist and a dental assistant testify they came in for procedures, did not appear afraid, did not try to call 911, did not try to run out the back door.

Pretty much the same testimony from a spa worker who says she gave the mother a full body wax for more than an hour. The woman never asked for help, never showed fear, never tried to call police. Now, alcohol is also an important aspect of this case...

GRACE: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Did you say a full body wax and the woman showed no fear?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, very, very, very funny.

GRACE: She`s more of a man than me, go ahead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The fact is that full body wax phrase is a very key aspect of this case, because the mother insisted repeatedly it wasn`t a full body wax, it was a leg wax.

GRACE: Who cares? Who cares?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it could show that she`s prone to lying when she insists it`s a full body wax and the spa worker gets up today and says -- she said it was a leg wax. And the spa worker says, "No, it was a full body wax." They showed the actual receipt on the big screen. It was a full body wax, bikini wax, lip, the whole nine yards.

GRACE: Ow, ooh, ouch, ow.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It wasn`t a Brazilian bikini wax, though.

GRACE: OK, stop right there, right there. You`re going to Howard Stern me.

Let me go to Jackson family attorney Debra Opri. You know what? Here`s my advice to the mom. Go ahead and plead guilty. You had a bikini wax, not a leg wax. All right. Now, what have they proved?

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: What have they proved? The lady`s got a lot of guts, and she had a lot of hair taken off of her because she was running from her estranged husband, wanted to start a whole new life. Uncle Mikey Jackson was going to help her.

And isn`t it strange how there was no false imprisonment, no conspiracy with these witnesses? These witnesses said, "Hey, she was having a grand old time. She came in and said, `Get the braces off my son. Get me my full body wax. And let`s have a good old time.`"

And these witnesses, incidentally, very well-respected people in and around the Santa Barbara County. And these are the people these jurors connect with.

GRACE: Well, Anne Bremner, high-profile Seattle defense lawyer, she`s been in the courtroom from the get-go.

Anne, they`ve got a point. I know that they`ve got the mom over a barrel about having the mustache wax. But is there a bigger picture here, a bigger issue with credibility with the mom?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE LAWYER: Well, there is, Nancy. But you know, you`d have to falsely imprison me for me to do a full body wax. So maybe that`s part of it.

But you know? So you`ve got credibility issues. But here`s the deal, Nancy. It`s the family, not the mom, that`s falsely imprisoned. Notes at the ranch that the child and the accuser`s family can`t leave the ranch. Never before has he had notes like that before, except for with this family.

One-way ticket to Brazil, passports in Geragos` office. They there were like (INAUDIBLE) set them off to Brazil. Taking them to Florida, having them have this whole press conference. You know, and the children were there at Neverland.

And guess what else? Death threats. There`s death threats against your family, they say to the mother, and against your parents. And her parents are followed and put under surveillance. So it`s a bigger picture for the prosecution to show false imprisonment, which is limited. It`s not forever. It`s limited.

So there may be a few forays in all of this. It doesn`t in any way discount what the claim is. And it`s pretty scary stuff that was going out there in a nightmare at Neverland.

GRACE: To Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, are we getting lost in the sauce here? This is a molestation case. And today, we`re hearing about a body wax on the alleged victim`s mom.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I`ll tell you. The defense is not merely poking holes in the prosecution`s case. They`re knocking down walls.

GRACE: Over a mustache wax? OK.

SANCHEZ: Well, if this woman and her family felt that they were being held captive, or all these other accusations, why is she being waxed at all, whether it`s wax on her face, or on her legs, or on her arms. That sounds like bizarre conduct to me. And it doesn`t sound like the type of conduct someone would engage in if they were under this type of threatening behavior.

GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Robi, it seems to me that the defense is pointing every which way in the courtroom except to the alleged molestation, except to the possession of the boy book with all the naked little boys in it.

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, what they`re doing is, they`re pointing to the credibility of the main witness, which is the mother. And they`re saying, like, here is this woman who`s saying that she was -- had no freedom, and she was treating Michael Jackson`s Neverland like it was a spa to enjoy. I mean, I don`t have time for a full body wax.

GRACE: The whole thing cost $140.

LUDWIG: It doesn`t matter. It sets the stage.

GRACE: It`s not like that`s a lot of money.

LUDWIG: But it sets the stage. Would you go into a spa where you felt afraid and where you couldn`t leave? People only engage in those activities when they have the mindset that it`s something that you do because it`s pleasurable. It`s something that you do because you have the time to do.

GRACE: OK, quick break, everybody. With us at the courthouse, Jane Velez-Mitchell from "Celebrity Justice." And we`ll go straight back out there.

But as we go to break, we at "Nancy Grace" want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, to help find missing people. Take a look at Gina Holliday, 20-years-old, her body found in the Nevada desert Feb. 2001. Take a look.

If you have any information on this girl, Gina Holliday, call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "20/20")

MARTIN BASHIR, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: Is it really appropriate for a 44-year-old man to share a bedroom with a child who is not related to him at all?

MICHAEL JACKSON, DEFENDANT: That`s the beautiful thing.

BASHIR: That`s not a worrying thing?

JACKSON: Why should it be worrying? Who`s the criminal? Who`s Jack the Ripper in the room? This is a guy trying to help heal a child. I`m sleeping in a sleeping bag on the floor. I give him the bed, because he has a brother named Star (ph). So, him and Star took the bed. And I`m on the floor in the sleeping bag.

BASHIR: Did you ever sleep in the bed with them?

JACKSON: No. But I have slept in the bed with many children. I sleep in the bid with all of them. When Macaulay Culkin were little, Kieran Culkin would sleep on this side. Macaulay Culkin was on this side. His sister`s in there. We all would just jam in the bed. And we would wake up at like dawn and go in the hot air balloon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s from the ABC version of the Bashir documentary that was shown to the Jackson jury.

Quickly out to Jane Velez-Mitchell. She`s standing by at the courthouse with "Celebrity Justice."

Jane, OK, I get the string of witnesses saying the mom had a full body wax. They went to an orthodontist appointment. If they were falsely imprisoned, they could have run then. What comes next and how is the jury responding to this, or were they?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes, they were very, very fascinated. There was a lot of other testimony that`s very significant. Alcohol and porn are two key aspects of this case.

And, of course, prosecutors that Jackson used alcohol and porn to seduce this boy. Well, today, the defense brought in testimony. A security guard said he caught the accuser and his kid brother in Jackson`s wine cellar with an open bottle. An assistant chef testified that the kid brother demanded a milk shake with booze in it and said, if you don`t do it, I`m going to tell Michael Jackson and you`re going to get fired. A housekeeper testified she saw in the kid brother`s backpack some porn magazines.

So, what the defense is trying to do is say these kids aren`t so innocent. They were getting this stuff on their own, perhaps rifling through closets, sneaking into the wine closet, that sort of thing. And it was definitely some eye-opening testimony.

To Dr. Robi Ludwig, here in studio with me.

It seems as if Neverland had no rules whatsoever.

LUDWIG: Right.

GRACE: And these kids were running wild, as children will do, without anyone taking care of them. But how does that get Jackson off the hook? It`s his place. He`s in charge.

LUDWIG: Right.

Well, you know, I don`t know if it gets him off the hook at all. But it certainly -- you know, Michael Jackson looks like the bizarre babysitter, almost, that he is this rebellious 13-year-old in his mind-set. And when he`s operating with these children, he almost operates the way he wished he had been treated. So, I`m sure he wished that someone would drink alcohol, give him...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You mean getting drunk and looking at porn?

LUDWIG: Yes. It sounds like he was raised in a very strict environment, where he wasn`t able to engage in the normal rebellious adolescent activities. So he feels that, in his mind-set, he`s healing children by giving them an opportunity to engage in some of these normal activities.

GRACE: Every day, the Jackson family spokesperson, Raymone Bain, gives a statement to the press. I think it`s every day. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAYMONE BAIN, JACKSON FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: I just know that Larry is scheduled for Thursday.

QUESTION: That`s a for-sure?

BAIN: Well, nothing is absolutely for sure. But right now he is scheduled for Thursday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And, of course, she is referring to Larry King.

To Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, what celebrities are on the tap for court?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you have Larry king. You have Chris Tucker. You have Jay Leno. And then, of course, there`s a debate about all the others that perhaps the defense would like to bring in, like Elizabeth Taylor, just to say what a nice guy Michael Jackson is. You have the Quincy Joneses, the Liz Taylors, the Stevie Wonders.

They are not germane to the case. They didn`t necessarily see anything at a key time. But they could be character witnesses. And, as we have discussed before, that could open the door for the prosecution to bring in negative character witnesses and to bring in the alleged dirty laundry.

GRACE: You know, Debra Opri, I can`t wait to hear what Elizabeth Taylor has to say that is actually relevant to the molestation charges.

OPRI: Well, I think the key of what she would say if she got on the stand is to talk about his love of children and the innocence of being a child and his childlike choices of living like a child.

I think, if they allow her character testimony, I`m afraid Judge Melville would probably cut it off with her. I mean, we can go on and on and on. And I don`t think there will be so many rebuttal witnesses to Elizabeth Taylor. But she has been through everything with Michael Jackson since the `93 case. And I think she would be the best person to talk about the 1108 character evidence. I.e., you settled the case. You paid big bucks?

Well, she made the recommendation to him to follow the advice of the insurance company. I think, in that respect, to rebut the 1108, it would be extremely relevant to this case.

Well, Alex Sanchez, it seems Liz Taylor is very close with Jackson. In fact, she married Larry Fortensky, one of her husbands, there at Neverland. So, their bond is very strong. Alex, though, they are handing over to the state the possibility to bring in bad character, bad character evidence that has so far been kept away from this jury, by introducing all this good character, Alex.

SANCHEZ: That`s very true, except the real purpose of bringing in Liz Taylor is because Jackson and his attorneys want to awe the jury.

What do you think the jury is going to think when Liz Taylor walks into that courtroom? They`re going to forget about the trial. They`re going to concentrate on Liz Taylor. She`s a famous actress. They`re going to be completely in awe of her. And it doesn`t even make a difference what she says. She`s just saying that she`s a friend of Jackson and that`s what`s important.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAIN: The first thing Michael Jackson is interested in doing is telling the truth. He wants to clear his name. This is very, very, very important to him. It is causing him some concern about how he has been perceived and how he has been vilified. So, he wants to share with the whole world the fact that he is innocent of these charges. And if it takes him testifying to do it, he will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, that`s good to know. Raymone Bain says Jackson will definitely testify because he wants to share with the world his innocence.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, what is Larry King going to share with the world? What`s his anticipated testimony?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, "Celebrity Justice" broke the story that Larry King was purportedly having lunch at Nate `n` Al`s, which a very famous landmark in Beverly Hills, with a friend, a book publisher, Michael Viner.

And a source tells us that Larry Feldman came along and a conversation evolved. And we`ve heard Larry Feldman may have said, purportedly, although he completely denies it, unflattering things about the mother, that she was after money. Now, I think that Larry King, who obviously has more credibility than probably anybody else on planet Earth, will set the record straight, what exactly happened in that conversation, and what did he hear. And it could be very, very good testimony for the defense.

GRACE: And, of course, what has become of Mark Geragos, Debra Opri? Do you still expect him back in the courtroom on Friday?

OPRI: I do. And I`m not going to say I was surprised. I saw this as a key warfare strategy by that waiver, written waiver never being given to the judge. But I think the judge is the one who made the mistake here, Nancy. The judge should have said, Mr. Geragos is coming. Where`s the waiver? I want to see it.

By him getting on the stand and testifying, I understand he did open a door as far as information post-arrest. That the opening of the door may entitle the judge to say, you`ve waived the hold waiver. But I think he`ll be back.

GRACE: Debra, limited waiver?

OPRI: I know.

GRACE: Who made that up? Look, this is what happened.

OPRI: But he got away with it. He got away with it.

GRACE: Not yet. It ain`t over yet. It ain`t over yet.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold on. This is what happened, everybody. Correct me if I`m wrong, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Just jump in.

In court last week, Geragos comes into court, sunglasses, cell phone, you know the deal. And he says, I`m not going to testify unless I get a waiver, attorney-client privilege waiver as to the time when I represented Jackson. So, the defense attorney stands up and goes, oh, we`re going to bring you a written waiver, Judge. We just don`t have it in writing yet.

So, everybody says, OK, go ahead. Then he testifies to everything the defense wants. Then it comes time for cross. And Geragos says, wait, this was a limited waiver. I was only going to testify to basically what the defense wanted me to up, until these certain dates. So, bottom line, right now, Debra Opri, the defense has its cake and they`re eating it, too. Melville is not going to stand for that.

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: This is how the judge will handle it. He will say to Geragos, look, you answered a question beyond the waiver of the time of the arrest, and you opened the door, Mr. Geragos, and you`re going to answer the questions.

I do not understand the limited waiver. I really think Mesereau pulled a coup. And I think the judge made a mistake saying, let me see the written waiver before he even takes the stand.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Anne Bremner, you`ve tried a lot of cases, just like Opri. Limited waiver of attorney-client privilege?

BREMNER: No, no. No, it`s like being almost pregnant. Either you waive or you don`t.

And, in this case, I was in there. We heard Mesereau say this is a full waiver. And then we heard later, oops. It`s limited. That`s like you say, Nancy, ruh-roh. It was a big deal, and the judge was not pleased. You can`t just say, oh, piece of cake, can of corn, oops, I made a mistake, Oh, we`re going to limit this. There is not a limited waiver. And this is a serious matter. And, you know, I think that Geragos was limited in what he said and that really hampered the prosecution.

But it can be rectified by the judge.

GRACE: OK, quick break, everybody. Thank you to my Jackson people.

I want to tell you what`s coming up next. A man who has allegedly confessed to the murder of a little girl out of Florida tried to break out of prison.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAIN: When the Bashir documentary is reported on, it`s still edited. So, many people don`t even hear Michael Jackson say, you know, I find nothing wrong with sleeping with children, as long as I`m on the bed -- as long as I`m on a cot or I`m on the floor. They don`t even hear that. I mean, they repeat over and over and over again, oh, there`s nothing wrong with sharing my bed. But they don`t even air the whole documentary now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: This is Sarah Michelle Lunde. We covered her search intensely in Florida. The 13-year-old girl went missing. Two days later, her family reported her missing. Shortly thereafter, her body was found in a nearby pond. It was identified with this green cast on her arm. She was partially clothed, submerged in water.

Soon after, 36-year-old David Onstott, the man who dated her mother, an unregistered sex offender, was taken into custody. Around 4:30 a.m. this weekend, Onstott tried to break out of jail, this jail, Orient Road jail. If convicted, Onstott could face the Florida death penalty. In an incredible turn of events, Onstott tries a jailhouse break.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace.

The turn of events, amazing to me.

Let`s go down to Florida. Standing by, Michelle Suskauer.

Michelle, the DA has not yet announced as to whether there will be a death penalty sought in this case. But the jury, when they hear these facts, will obviously believe that Onstott thought he didn`t have a chance at trial because he is guilty. Won`t that be the argument by the prosecution? He was trying to make a jailhouse break this weekend.

MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, you know, a jailhouse break. This was a half-inch deep and eight inches long. And he wasn`t -- he didn`t bring contraband into the jail. I don`t whether this would be a jailhouse break. I don`t whether a mouse could escape from the hole that he was digging.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. Michelle, I didn`t say he was successful.

But, keep in mind, a towel rack was welded onto the wall. And Onstott got it off and proceeded to start digging. Now, how he got the towel rack welded onto the wall off, and then the guards hear him at 4:30 a.m., the man`s trying to get through the wall. Incredible.

SUSKAUER: Well, again, if he`s even charged with escape, which is a third-degree felony, or even bringing contraband into a facility, which I don`t think he did in this case, that is really the least of this guy`s worries.

GRACE: Yes. Well, you`re right about that, but this could go to him believing, at the trial for murder, that he didn`t stand a chance. Now, why would he think he doesn`t stand a chance? Wait. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW LUNDE, BROTHER OF SARAH LUNDE: He`s Hispanic. He`s a big, built guy. But I`ve heard of stuff before, but I don`t know if it`s true or not.

QUESTION: Just about him and his past?

LUNDE: Yes, his past.

QUESTION: What kind of -- I mean, what can you tell me about his personality?

LUNDE: Well, he -- I really didn`t like him, because he tried stuff with me, like try to fight me and stuff. But I`ve never really like sat down and talked with him, because I just stayed away from him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: An attempted prison escape this weekend by David Onstott, that will certainly be tacked on to his charges when he finally goes to trial for the murder of 13-year-old Sarah Michelle Lunde.

To Dr. Robi Ludwig.

Well, we just heard about his past. Explain.

LUDWIG: Yes. Well, this guy has a very violent history, too. A former wife of his said that he was very violent and raped her repeatedly. So this is a guy...

GRACE: Well, he had a conviction, a rape conviction.

LUDWIG: Yes. So, he is a person who does not like women, clearly, and is very violent and very impulsive and animalistic. It`s all about expedience. He has no frustration tolerance. It`s all about what he wants in the moment.

It`s the same thing -- people murder for that reason and people try to escape prison for that reason. They want out. They want what they want when they want it.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Robi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID GEE, HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY SHERIFF: The sheriff`s office alleges that, on April 10, 2005, between the hours and midnight and 05:00 a.m., the defendant, David Lee Onstott, arrived at the victim`s residence at 2812, 30th Street Southeast in Ruskin, Florida, looking for the victim`s mother, Kelly May. The defendant knocked on the door and the victim invited him to open the door and come in.

After entering the residence, the victim and defendant became involved in a verbal confrontation. During the confrontation, the defendant put the victim in a choke hold, causing her to become unconscious, and eventually causing her death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And amazingly, Robi, the mom didn`t report the girl`s disappearance for two days.

LUDWIG: Yes. Yes. So, we don`t know what was going on in her head. But, as you and I both know, you don`t -- just because you become a parent doesn`t mean you`re an adequate parent.

GRACE: To Alex Sanchez very quickly. Will the escape attempt come into evidence at the murder trial?

SANCHEZ: No, it won`t. The jury will never...

GRACE: Yes, it will.

SANCHEZ: The jury will never hear about that, because flight, although is evidence of risk, it has to be shortly at the time -- shortly near the scene of the event. And this was, what, a couple of days later.

GRACE: I say...

SANCHEZ: So, more likely than not, the jury`s never going to hear about that. He`ll be tried separately for that.

GRACE: Alex, I think it will come in. We`ll argue about that in just a moment.

Very quickly to tonight`s all-points bulletin. FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Francisco Martinez, Martinez wanted in connection with the shooting of his employer in Passaic, New Jersey, September 14, 2001. Martinez, 43, 5`8``, 350. If you have info, call the FBI, 973-792-3000.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of the Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us, as we remember an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, please call 1-888-GRACE-01, 888-472-2301. Or go to the Web site, CNN.com/NancyGrace.

I don`t know about you, but I will never forget 13-year-old Sarah Michelle Lunde. She had literally just come home from church, singing church songs with her youth fellowship class. She went missing that evening from her home. Her mother did not report her missing until the following Monday, two days later.

The man under arrest for this girl`s murder, David Onstott, a convicted sex offender, tried to make a prison break at 4:30 a.m. out of Orient Road Jail in Florida. Deputies heard a scratching sound coming from within unit six Charlie and found Onstott had broken off from the wall, welded to the wall, a towel rack and was using it as crude implement to make an escape.

Now, there`s a thought, Alex , defense attorney, that I can enjoy looking out my window and seeing this guy tromping across the backyard.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I got news for you. Why should Onstott try to escape from jail when, you know what? There`s a chance that he may walk out of that jail scot-free. And the reason is because the case is based entirely upon a statement of a confession that he allegedly made.

GRACE: Believe me, they got him to sign the Miranda. Don`t worry about that.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Right. But he was represented by an attorney, because he had already been in jail on another case. And when you`re already represented by an attorney, you may not be able to just waive your Miranda rights without the presence of that lawyer. And if those statements get suppressed, he is walking out.

GRACE: Very quickly to Dr. Robi Ludwig. The mentality behind an escape attempt?

LUDWIG: I don`t deserve to be here. Who`s the system to tell me what to do? This person made me do it. I`m not to blame.

Rage, anger, entitlement and a primitive desire to free oneself. Not everybody feels guilty. Not everybody has those moralities in place.

GRACE: I want to thank all my guests tonight, but, as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world and Larry on CNN.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until tomorrow night, good night, friend.

END


Aired May 16, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, the 16-month-old toddler we told you about Friday night has been found alive in Mexico, while tonight police double their efforts to find the suspected kidnapper, Ivan Villa. Now, the baby`s mom, Kristi Black, was found strangled when little Justin disappeared.
Plus, a convicted sex offender arrested for the murder of 13-year-old Sarah Michelle Lunde tries to make a jailhouse break down in Florida.

And it is week two for the defense in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

We go live to California and the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

And in Florida, 13-year-old Sarah Michelle Lunde`s accused killer, David Onstott, attempts a prison escape. Now, Onstott could face the Florida death penalty if convicted of the 13-year-old`s murder.

But first, a miracle tonight. Just hours after a toddler`s mom, murder victim Kristi Black`s, funeral took place, her baby, Justin, is found alive across the border in Mexico. Tonight, a massive manhunt still underway for the boy`s stepfather, Ivan Villa.

With us tonight in California, Dee Dee Black, Kristi`s mother, grandmother of Justin; in West Palm Beach, Florida, defense attorney Michelle Suskauer; in New York, defense attorney Alex Sanchez; and psychologist Dr. Robi Ludwig.

But first, let`s go out to KOA-TV reporter Jeff DeMars. He`s joining us from New Mexico.

Jeff, bring me up-to-date. Where was baby Justin found?

JEFF DEMARS, KOA-TV REPORTER: Baby Justin was found about 14 hours from the last time somebody saw him down in Durango, Mexico, which is about ten hours south of the El Paso, Texas, and New Mexico border. And he was found on Friday, as you said, just hours after the funeral, sort of bittersweet for the family there.

But right now, they`re still looking for Ivan Villa, as you said, in an international manhunt, as well, down in Mexico, and up here in New Mexico, and possibly -- I spoke with FBI this morning -- they think he may have come back to the United States. He`s a U.S. citizen. They believe he`s familiar with the U.S. more than he would be with Mexico. So it`s possible he may have crossed that border back here in the United States.

GRACE: OK, you know what? This is what I don`t get, Jeff DeMars. Have you ever gone to K-Mart and used a bad check, maybe get a bad response on your credit card? Where are all the photos? How is this guy getting back and forth through the Border Patrol at Mexico? I mean, he is a suspect in the kidnap of this 16-month-old toddler, the mom found dead.

DEMARS: And that`s a good question. I don`t think there`s any photos, as you said. But there have been public reports. Initially, when they thought that the baby went across the border with Ivan, initially, they may have driven across. And then somebody said they had spotted them coming back across the border to El Paso.

But that information, I mean, it`s really vague. It just depends on people calling in, basically. They did find the missing car down in Juarez. So they find a missing car that was used in the kidnapping or they believe was used in the kidnapping, and then they find the child ten hours south of that.

GRACE: Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, forget about the car. Forget the car. I want to hear about this baby.

This is a shot of baby Justin. Baby Justin, safe tonight. He was found in Mexico. We told you about him on Friday night. His mom was found strangled to death. Baby Justin, alive, found in Mexico. Ivan Villa, still wanted for kidnap.

What were the conditions? Can you tell me, Jeff, as to how baby Justin was found? Where was he?

DEMARS: He was found just south of the New Mexico-Texas border, about ten hours south. And then they flew him up back to the United States with family, and family, of course, greeted him as he exited the airplane -- or exited...

GRACE: Well, was he in a home? Was he in a home? Was he in a car? Was he dropped off at a hospital?

DEMARS: You know what? And those are great questions. And the FBI right now is not answering those questions for one reason or another, possibly investigation, possibly they may be on the heels of Ivan Villa and therefore not really giving us any indication as to...

GRACE: You know what, Jeff? That`s a very, very good point. You`re right. The FBI not releasing a lot of information tonight.

With us, reporter from KOA-TV, Jeff DeMars. Jeff, don`t move.

I`m now hooked up to a very special guest, the mother of murder victim Kristi Black. This is the grandmother of little Justin.

Ma`am, thank you for being with us. I know, after all you`ve been through, finding out about your daughter`s death, this is just a miracle for you that you have baby Justin alive.

DEE DEE BLACK, MOTHER OF KRISTI BLACK: We`ve had several miracles, Nancy. And first, I want to thank the media. I want to thank the FBI. I want to thank Detective Jim Biggs out of Ruidoso Police Department. He`s the detective in charge. And all the prayer networks from all over the country, all over the world.

The miracles that have happened -- and it`s been more than one -- wouldn`t have happened without the support and help from everybody. Thank you, too.

GRACE: Dee Dee, you don`t have to thank us. We`re just fingers crossed. Where do you think Ivan Villa is tonight?

BLACK: I don`t know. But I try to think of his mind-frame and, with everything that`s happened, the walls closing in on him. He`s going to be limited on where he can go. So I really don`t have a clue if he`s in -- I don`t have a gut feeling if he`s in the states or in Mexico.

GRACE: We`re showing you a picture of Ivan Villa, 22-years-old, 5`10", 190 pounds, black hair, brown eyes, usually wearing a goatee.

Dee Dee, I know you`ve just gone through the funeral of your girl, Kristi, baby Justin`s mom. How did you find out Kristi was dead?

BLACK: Her dad called me. I guess when they found her he was in Ruidoso there. He trains race horses on the track. And he had gone to the apartment. I`m assuming he was at the apartment. He called me and told me.

GRACE: How long had he been with Kristi?

BLACK: Well, all her life, up until about the last four years. She moved to New Mexico when she was 15, almost 16, actually, 16, had just turned 16. So she had been with me the whole time up until that point.

GRACE: Where is Justin tonight?

BLACK: He`s in Las -- I`m assuming Las Cruces and the Las Cruces Child Protective Services have him. When I talked to him today, I`m just assuming the Las Cruces area, they placed him somewhere there.

GRACE: We are taking...

BLACK: I was real concerned. Go ahead, I`m sorry.

GRACE: We are taking a quick break. With us tonight, Kristi Black`s mother. Kristi Black found murdered in her home, her baby missing. There has been an international search for baby Justin Black.

A miracle has happened. The baby has been found in Mexico. Still missing, his suspected abductor, his stepfather, not his biological father, Ivan Villa. Still no arrests or suspects announced in the murder of Justin`s mother.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHARLENE ANDERSON, JUSTIN BLACK`S GREAT AUNT: This afternoon, I kept getting all these phone calls. People asking me or telling me, "How do you feel?" You know, asking me, "How do you feel, because now that you, you know, found out Justin`s fine?" And I hadn`t heard anything yet. So I had to call and confirm it myself. And sure enough, they had released it. And before I could even get off the phone, it was all over the media.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Baby Justin Black has been found in Mexico. His mother`s murder still remains a mystery. Let`s go straight out to KOA-TV, Jeff DeMars, reporter for them.

Jeff, tell me about the murder of Kristi Black. How was she murdered? Where was she murdered? And how close in relation to Ivan Villa allegedly taking the baby with him?

DEMARS: Right. Now, all of this started with a phone call from Kristi herself, a 911 call around 1 o`clock that Mother`s Day afternoon with a domestic dispute between Ivan Villa and herself. What that entailed, apparently, there was some talk about a purse and money and that sort thing.

But then, later on that afternoon, police had to return after they got another phone call around 6 o`clock that evening, 7 o`clock that evening, saying that her friend had found her dead. Now, of course, at that point, police arrived at the scene, found her in a back bedroom allegedly strangled. That`s what preliminary autopsy reports indicate.

And then what they didn`t find was Villa and then the son, as well. Justin was gone. And they were both gone in a gray Mustang. So an Amber Alert went out about two hours after police discovered her body dead, about 9:00, 9:30 New Mexico time. Amber Alert, of course, nationwide.

And it wasn`t until a few days later that they ended up finding that gray Mustang in Juarez, Mexico. It was Friday where they found -- just this past Friday, where they found baby Justin just ten hours south of the Mexican-American border.

GRACE: Gotcha.

DEMARS: And now still an international search for Villa.

GRACE: And according to Jeff DeMars and other sources, the FBI is not releasing a lot of details about where baby Justin was found.

Hey, Elizabeth, can you put up that shot of baby Justin? He looks just like a baby doll, a little doll. He`s just beautiful. And I`m wondering tonight whether he was found at a hospital, an orphanage, was he left at a shopping mall, was he left at somebody`s house? We don`t know. But baby Justin, I told you about him all last week, has been found alive in Mexico.

Very quickly, back to Justin`s grandmother, the mother of murder victim Kristi. What I`m trying to find out is the nature of the relationship between Ivan Villa and your daughter, Kristi. What was that relationship?

BLACK: Well, they had been -- they had gotten married last August. They actually only spent a few months physically together. His job had transferred him from Ruidoso to Farmington, to the race track there. And then, from that meet, they transferred him down to southern Texas.

So at that point, he moved to southern Texas. And Kristi moved to El Paso. She didn`t want to live in southern Texas. So she had just -- the Sunday before Mother`s Day was moving back in with him in Ruidoso. He had transferred from southern Texas back to Ruidoso.

GRACE: Dee Dee, hold on. Take a listen to the police lieutenant.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Lieutenant Glascock, the mom has been murdered. Why are you so convinced the little boy hasn`t been harmed?

LT. JIMMY GLASCOCK, NEW MEXICO STATE POLICE: That`s certainly our overall concern, is Justin`s overall safety and well-being. And that`s why we want him brought back just as soon as possible.

GRACE: What car do you think they`re traveling in?

GLASCOCK: The best information that we received so far in the investigation is that he`s possibly driving a 2000 model silver or gray Ford Mustang.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To Dee Dee, the grandmother of little Justin, Dee Dee, why would he take the baby away from the mom?

BLACK: Well, I have a feeling he wouldn`t have left Justin there by - - I know he wouldn`t have left Justin by himself, for one thing. And then, with Kristi being deceased, he definitely wouldn`t have left him. He loved Justin and was going to try and take the best care he could, which he ended up doing, thank goodness, because we got him back safe, and healthy, and alive.

So there`s no way he would have left him in the apartment by himself, if he was the only live person there.

GRACE: Back to Jeff DeMars...

BLACK: I think that`s why he took him.

GRACE: ... with KOA-TV. What is being done tonight to find Ivan Villa?

DEMARS: Ivan Villa, there`s an international manhunt out right now. FBI are searching, I imagine, on the local border. We spoke with them this morning again. And they said that it`s possible he may have crossed the border once again because he is a U.S. citizen, more familiar with the United States.

But they`re also looking into areas south of the border in Mexico. So there is an international manhunt, if you will, for him right now.

GRACE: I want to thank Jeff DeMars, reporter with KOA-TV, as well as Dee Dee Black, the mother of Kristi Black, and the grandmother of baby Justin.

Ma`am, I`m so happy for you that you have Justin back in the states.

BLACK: With everything that happened with Kristi, this is the bright light of everything. So we are, too. And again, I can`t thank the media, and the police departments, and everybody enough for, you know -- everybody, people we didn`t even know that have been praying and thinking positive thoughts for us. That`s been a big part of this, the support system.

Thank you, Nancy, too.

GRACE: Oh, yes, ma`am. Thank you for being with us tonight. And we`re not going to let go of this case, Ms. Black, thank you.

Quick break, everybody. And we are going to "Trial Tracking" very quickly. Just hours ago, a California jury hands down the death penalty for convicted child molester Alejandro Avila. Last month, the same jury convicted Avila of the kidnap, sex assault, and murder of 5-year-old little Samantha Runnion.

The jury deliberated two long days before bringing home a unanimous verdict that Avila should go to death row. Samantha, kidnapped outside her California home, 2002. Samantha`s body, unclothed, found the next day 50 miles from home. Avila`s sentencing set for July 22.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIN RUNNION, MOTHER OF SLAIN SAMANTHA RUNNION: He is guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. And that feels really good, because nobody should get away with this. And in honor of Samantha, in honor of Jessica, and Molly Bish, and Polly Klaas, and Adam Walsh, how many children do we have to take away before we as Americans get organized? We outnumber you so many times over. There is no excuse, and we`re not going to let you get away with this anymore.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody.

The Michael Jackson child sex trial rages on. The defense not going down without taking plenty of swings at the state. Let`s go straight out to California.

Standing by in Santa Maria, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell. Jane, what happened in court today?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, as you said, a slew of defense witnesses punching holes in the prosecution`s case. At the very time that this family accusing Jackson says it`s being held against its will at Neverland, a dentist and a dental assistant testify they came in for procedures, did not appear afraid, did not try to call 911, did not try to run out the back door.

Pretty much the same testimony from a spa worker who says she gave the mother a full body wax for more than an hour. The woman never asked for help, never showed fear, never tried to call police. Now, alcohol is also an important aspect of this case...

GRACE: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Did you say a full body wax and the woman showed no fear?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, very, very, very funny.

GRACE: She`s more of a man than me, go ahead.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The fact is that full body wax phrase is a very key aspect of this case, because the mother insisted repeatedly it wasn`t a full body wax, it was a leg wax.

GRACE: Who cares? Who cares?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it could show that she`s prone to lying when she insists it`s a full body wax and the spa worker gets up today and says -- she said it was a leg wax. And the spa worker says, "No, it was a full body wax." They showed the actual receipt on the big screen. It was a full body wax, bikini wax, lip, the whole nine yards.

GRACE: Ow, ooh, ouch, ow.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It wasn`t a Brazilian bikini wax, though.

GRACE: OK, stop right there, right there. You`re going to Howard Stern me.

Let me go to Jackson family attorney Debra Opri. You know what? Here`s my advice to the mom. Go ahead and plead guilty. You had a bikini wax, not a leg wax. All right. Now, what have they proved?

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: What have they proved? The lady`s got a lot of guts, and she had a lot of hair taken off of her because she was running from her estranged husband, wanted to start a whole new life. Uncle Mikey Jackson was going to help her.

And isn`t it strange how there was no false imprisonment, no conspiracy with these witnesses? These witnesses said, "Hey, she was having a grand old time. She came in and said, `Get the braces off my son. Get me my full body wax. And let`s have a good old time.`"

And these witnesses, incidentally, very well-respected people in and around the Santa Barbara County. And these are the people these jurors connect with.

GRACE: Well, Anne Bremner, high-profile Seattle defense lawyer, she`s been in the courtroom from the get-go.

Anne, they`ve got a point. I know that they`ve got the mom over a barrel about having the mustache wax. But is there a bigger picture here, a bigger issue with credibility with the mom?

ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE LAWYER: Well, there is, Nancy. But you know, you`d have to falsely imprison me for me to do a full body wax. So maybe that`s part of it.

But you know? So you`ve got credibility issues. But here`s the deal, Nancy. It`s the family, not the mom, that`s falsely imprisoned. Notes at the ranch that the child and the accuser`s family can`t leave the ranch. Never before has he had notes like that before, except for with this family.

One-way ticket to Brazil, passports in Geragos` office. They there were like (INAUDIBLE) set them off to Brazil. Taking them to Florida, having them have this whole press conference. You know, and the children were there at Neverland.

And guess what else? Death threats. There`s death threats against your family, they say to the mother, and against your parents. And her parents are followed and put under surveillance. So it`s a bigger picture for the prosecution to show false imprisonment, which is limited. It`s not forever. It`s limited.

So there may be a few forays in all of this. It doesn`t in any way discount what the claim is. And it`s pretty scary stuff that was going out there in a nightmare at Neverland.

GRACE: To Alex Sanchez, defense attorney, are we getting lost in the sauce here? This is a molestation case. And today, we`re hearing about a body wax on the alleged victim`s mom.

ALEX SANCHEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I`ll tell you. The defense is not merely poking holes in the prosecution`s case. They`re knocking down walls.

GRACE: Over a mustache wax? OK.

SANCHEZ: Well, if this woman and her family felt that they were being held captive, or all these other accusations, why is she being waxed at all, whether it`s wax on her face, or on her legs, or on her arms. That sounds like bizarre conduct to me. And it doesn`t sound like the type of conduct someone would engage in if they were under this type of threatening behavior.

GRACE: To Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist. Robi, it seems to me that the defense is pointing every which way in the courtroom except to the alleged molestation, except to the possession of the boy book with all the naked little boys in it.

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, what they`re doing is, they`re pointing to the credibility of the main witness, which is the mother. And they`re saying, like, here is this woman who`s saying that she was -- had no freedom, and she was treating Michael Jackson`s Neverland like it was a spa to enjoy. I mean, I don`t have time for a full body wax.

GRACE: The whole thing cost $140.

LUDWIG: It doesn`t matter. It sets the stage.

GRACE: It`s not like that`s a lot of money.

LUDWIG: But it sets the stage. Would you go into a spa where you felt afraid and where you couldn`t leave? People only engage in those activities when they have the mindset that it`s something that you do because it`s pleasurable. It`s something that you do because you have the time to do.

GRACE: OK, quick break, everybody. With us at the courthouse, Jane Velez-Mitchell from "Celebrity Justice." And we`ll go straight back out there.

But as we go to break, we at "Nancy Grace" want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, to help find missing people. Take a look at Gina Holliday, 20-years-old, her body found in the Nevada desert Feb. 2001. Take a look.

If you have any information on this girl, Gina Holliday, call the Carole Sund Carrington Foundation toll-free, 888-813-8389. Please help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "20/20")

MARTIN BASHIR, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: Is it really appropriate for a 44-year-old man to share a bedroom with a child who is not related to him at all?

MICHAEL JACKSON, DEFENDANT: That`s the beautiful thing.

BASHIR: That`s not a worrying thing?

JACKSON: Why should it be worrying? Who`s the criminal? Who`s Jack the Ripper in the room? This is a guy trying to help heal a child. I`m sleeping in a sleeping bag on the floor. I give him the bed, because he has a brother named Star (ph). So, him and Star took the bed. And I`m on the floor in the sleeping bag.

BASHIR: Did you ever sleep in the bed with them?

JACKSON: No. But I have slept in the bed with many children. I sleep in the bid with all of them. When Macaulay Culkin were little, Kieran Culkin would sleep on this side. Macaulay Culkin was on this side. His sister`s in there. We all would just jam in the bed. And we would wake up at like dawn and go in the hot air balloon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s from the ABC version of the Bashir documentary that was shown to the Jackson jury.

Quickly out to Jane Velez-Mitchell. She`s standing by at the courthouse with "Celebrity Justice."

Jane, OK, I get the string of witnesses saying the mom had a full body wax. They went to an orthodontist appointment. If they were falsely imprisoned, they could have run then. What comes next and how is the jury responding to this, or were they?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes, they were very, very fascinated. There was a lot of other testimony that`s very significant. Alcohol and porn are two key aspects of this case.

And, of course, prosecutors that Jackson used alcohol and porn to seduce this boy. Well, today, the defense brought in testimony. A security guard said he caught the accuser and his kid brother in Jackson`s wine cellar with an open bottle. An assistant chef testified that the kid brother demanded a milk shake with booze in it and said, if you don`t do it, I`m going to tell Michael Jackson and you`re going to get fired. A housekeeper testified she saw in the kid brother`s backpack some porn magazines.

So, what the defense is trying to do is say these kids aren`t so innocent. They were getting this stuff on their own, perhaps rifling through closets, sneaking into the wine closet, that sort of thing. And it was definitely some eye-opening testimony.

To Dr. Robi Ludwig, here in studio with me.

It seems as if Neverland had no rules whatsoever.

LUDWIG: Right.

GRACE: And these kids were running wild, as children will do, without anyone taking care of them. But how does that get Jackson off the hook? It`s his place. He`s in charge.

LUDWIG: Right.

Well, you know, I don`t know if it gets him off the hook at all. But it certainly -- you know, Michael Jackson looks like the bizarre babysitter, almost, that he is this rebellious 13-year-old in his mind-set. And when he`s operating with these children, he almost operates the way he wished he had been treated. So, I`m sure he wished that someone would drink alcohol, give him...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You mean getting drunk and looking at porn?

LUDWIG: Yes. It sounds like he was raised in a very strict environment, where he wasn`t able to engage in the normal rebellious adolescent activities. So he feels that, in his mind-set, he`s healing children by giving them an opportunity to engage in some of these normal activities.

GRACE: Every day, the Jackson family spokesperson, Raymone Bain, gives a statement to the press. I think it`s every day. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAYMONE BAIN, JACKSON FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: I just know that Larry is scheduled for Thursday.

QUESTION: That`s a for-sure?

BAIN: Well, nothing is absolutely for sure. But right now he is scheduled for Thursday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And, of course, she is referring to Larry King.

To Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, what celebrities are on the tap for court?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you have Larry king. You have Chris Tucker. You have Jay Leno. And then, of course, there`s a debate about all the others that perhaps the defense would like to bring in, like Elizabeth Taylor, just to say what a nice guy Michael Jackson is. You have the Quincy Joneses, the Liz Taylors, the Stevie Wonders.

They are not germane to the case. They didn`t necessarily see anything at a key time. But they could be character witnesses. And, as we have discussed before, that could open the door for the prosecution to bring in negative character witnesses and to bring in the alleged dirty laundry.

GRACE: You know, Debra Opri, I can`t wait to hear what Elizabeth Taylor has to say that is actually relevant to the molestation charges.

OPRI: Well, I think the key of what she would say if she got on the stand is to talk about his love of children and the innocence of being a child and his childlike choices of living like a child.

I think, if they allow her character testimony, I`m afraid Judge Melville would probably cut it off with her. I mean, we can go on and on and on. And I don`t think there will be so many rebuttal witnesses to Elizabeth Taylor. But she has been through everything with Michael Jackson since the `93 case. And I think she would be the best person to talk about the 1108 character evidence. I.e., you settled the case. You paid big bucks?

Well, she made the recommendation to him to follow the advice of the insurance company. I think, in that respect, to rebut the 1108, it would be extremely relevant to this case.

Well, Alex Sanchez, it seems Liz Taylor is very close with Jackson. In fact, she married Larry Fortensky, one of her husbands, there at Neverland. So, their bond is very strong. Alex, though, they are handing over to the state the possibility to bring in bad character, bad character evidence that has so far been kept away from this jury, by introducing all this good character, Alex.

SANCHEZ: That`s very true, except the real purpose of bringing in Liz Taylor is because Jackson and his attorneys want to awe the jury.

What do you think the jury is going to think when Liz Taylor walks into that courtroom? They`re going to forget about the trial. They`re going to concentrate on Liz Taylor. She`s a famous actress. They`re going to be completely in awe of her. And it doesn`t even make a difference what she says. She`s just saying that she`s a friend of Jackson and that`s what`s important.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAIN: The first thing Michael Jackson is interested in doing is telling the truth. He wants to clear his name. This is very, very, very important to him. It is causing him some concern about how he has been perceived and how he has been vilified. So, he wants to share with the whole world the fact that he is innocent of these charges. And if it takes him testifying to do it, he will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Well, that`s good to know. Raymone Bain says Jackson will definitely testify because he wants to share with the world his innocence.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, what is Larry King going to share with the world? What`s his anticipated testimony?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, "Celebrity Justice" broke the story that Larry King was purportedly having lunch at Nate `n` Al`s, which a very famous landmark in Beverly Hills, with a friend, a book publisher, Michael Viner.

And a source tells us that Larry Feldman came along and a conversation evolved. And we`ve heard Larry Feldman may have said, purportedly, although he completely denies it, unflattering things about the mother, that she was after money. Now, I think that Larry King, who obviously has more credibility than probably anybody else on planet Earth, will set the record straight, what exactly happened in that conversation, and what did he hear. And it could be very, very good testimony for the defense.

GRACE: And, of course, what has become of Mark Geragos, Debra Opri? Do you still expect him back in the courtroom on Friday?

OPRI: I do. And I`m not going to say I was surprised. I saw this as a key warfare strategy by that waiver, written waiver never being given to the judge. But I think the judge is the one who made the mistake here, Nancy. The judge should have said, Mr. Geragos is coming. Where`s the waiver? I want to see it.

By him getting on the stand and testifying, I understand he did open a door as far as information post-arrest. That the opening of the door may entitle the judge to say, you`ve waived the hold waiver. But I think he`ll be back.

GRACE: Debra, limited waiver?

OPRI: I know.

GRACE: Who made that up? Look, this is what happened.

OPRI: But he got away with it. He got away with it.

GRACE: Not yet. It ain`t over yet. It ain`t over yet.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Hold on. This is what happened, everybody. Correct me if I`m wrong, Jane Velez-Mitchell. Just jump in.

In court last week, Geragos comes into court, sunglasses, cell phone, you know the deal. And he says, I`m not going to testify unless I get a waiver, attorney-client privilege waiver as to the time when I represented Jackson. So, the defense attorney stands up and goes, oh, we`re going to bring you a written waiver, Judge. We just don`t have it in writing yet.

So, everybody says, OK, go ahead. Then he testifies to everything the defense wants. Then it comes time for cross. And Geragos says, wait, this was a limited waiver. I was only going to testify to basically what the defense wanted me to up, until these certain dates. So, bottom line, right now, Debra Opri, the defense has its cake and they`re eating it, too. Melville is not going to stand for that.

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: This is how the judge will handle it. He will say to Geragos, look, you answered a question beyond the waiver of the time of the arrest, and you opened the door, Mr. Geragos, and you`re going to answer the questions.

I do not understand the limited waiver. I really think Mesereau pulled a coup. And I think the judge made a mistake saying, let me see the written waiver before he even takes the stand.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute.

Anne Bremner, you`ve tried a lot of cases, just like Opri. Limited waiver of attorney-client privilege?

BREMNER: No, no. No, it`s like being almost pregnant. Either you waive or you don`t.

And, in this case, I was in there. We heard Mesereau say this is a full waiver. And then we heard later, oops. It`s limited. That`s like you say, Nancy, ruh-roh. It was a big deal, and the judge was not pleased. You can`t just say, oh, piece of cake, can of corn, oops, I made a mistake, Oh, we`re going to limit this. There is not a limited waiver. And this is a serious matter. And, you know, I think that Geragos was limited in what he said and that really hampered the prosecution.

But it can be rectified by the judge.

GRACE: OK, quick break, everybody. Thank you to my Jackson people.

I want to tell you what`s coming up next. A man who has allegedly confessed to the murder of a little girl out of Florida tried to break out of prison.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAIN: When the Bashir documentary is reported on, it`s still edited. So, many people don`t even hear Michael Jackson say, you know, I find nothing wrong with sleeping with children, as long as I`m on the bed -- as long as I`m on a cot or I`m on the floor. They don`t even hear that. I mean, they repeat over and over and over again, oh, there`s nothing wrong with sharing my bed. But they don`t even air the whole documentary now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: This is Sarah Michelle Lunde. We covered her search intensely in Florida. The 13-year-old girl went missing. Two days later, her family reported her missing. Shortly thereafter, her body was found in a nearby pond. It was identified with this green cast on her arm. She was partially clothed, submerged in water.

Soon after, 36-year-old David Onstott, the man who dated her mother, an unregistered sex offender, was taken into custody. Around 4:30 a.m. this weekend, Onstott tried to break out of jail, this jail, Orient Road jail. If convicted, Onstott could face the Florida death penalty. In an incredible turn of events, Onstott tries a jailhouse break.

Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace.

The turn of events, amazing to me.

Let`s go down to Florida. Standing by, Michelle Suskauer.

Michelle, the DA has not yet announced as to whether there will be a death penalty sought in this case. But the jury, when they hear these facts, will obviously believe that Onstott thought he didn`t have a chance at trial because he is guilty. Won`t that be the argument by the prosecution? He was trying to make a jailhouse break this weekend.

MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, you know, a jailhouse break. This was a half-inch deep and eight inches long. And he wasn`t -- he didn`t bring contraband into the jail. I don`t whether this would be a jailhouse break. I don`t whether a mouse could escape from the hole that he was digging.

GRACE: OK. Hold on. Michelle, I didn`t say he was successful.

But, keep in mind, a towel rack was welded onto the wall. And Onstott got it off and proceeded to start digging. Now, how he got the towel rack welded onto the wall off, and then the guards hear him at 4:30 a.m., the man`s trying to get through the wall. Incredible.

SUSKAUER: Well, again, if he`s even charged with escape, which is a third-degree felony, or even bringing contraband into a facility, which I don`t think he did in this case, that is really the least of this guy`s worries.

GRACE: Yes. Well, you`re right about that, but this could go to him believing, at the trial for murder, that he didn`t stand a chance. Now, why would he think he doesn`t stand a chance? Wait. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDREW LUNDE, BROTHER OF SARAH LUNDE: He`s Hispanic. He`s a big, built guy. But I`ve heard of stuff before, but I don`t know if it`s true or not.

QUESTION: Just about him and his past?

LUNDE: Yes, his past.

QUESTION: What kind of -- I mean, what can you tell me about his personality?

LUNDE: Well, he -- I really didn`t like him, because he tried stuff with me, like try to fight me and stuff. But I`ve never really like sat down and talked with him, because I just stayed away from him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: An attempted prison escape this weekend by David Onstott, that will certainly be tacked on to his charges when he finally goes to trial for the murder of 13-year-old Sarah Michelle Lunde.

To Dr. Robi Ludwig.

Well, we just heard about his past. Explain.

LUDWIG: Yes. Well, this guy has a very violent history, too. A former wife of his said that he was very violent and raped her repeatedly. So this is a guy...

GRACE: Well, he had a conviction, a rape conviction.

LUDWIG: Yes. So, he is a person who does not like women, clearly, and is very violent and very impulsive and animalistic. It`s all about expedience. He has no frustration tolerance. It`s all about what he wants in the moment.

It`s the same thing -- people murder for that reason and people try to escape prison for that reason. They want out. They want what they want when they want it.

GRACE: Take a listen to this, Robi.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID GEE, HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY SHERIFF: The sheriff`s office alleges that, on April 10, 2005, between the hours and midnight and 05:00 a.m., the defendant, David Lee Onstott, arrived at the victim`s residence at 2812, 30th Street Southeast in Ruskin, Florida, looking for the victim`s mother, Kelly May. The defendant knocked on the door and the victim invited him to open the door and come in.

After entering the residence, the victim and defendant became involved in a verbal confrontation. During the confrontation, the defendant put the victim in a choke hold, causing her to become unconscious, and eventually causing her death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And amazingly, Robi, the mom didn`t report the girl`s disappearance for two days.

LUDWIG: Yes. Yes. So, we don`t know what was going on in her head. But, as you and I both know, you don`t -- just because you become a parent doesn`t mean you`re an adequate parent.

GRACE: To Alex Sanchez very quickly. Will the escape attempt come into evidence at the murder trial?

SANCHEZ: No, it won`t. The jury will never...

GRACE: Yes, it will.

SANCHEZ: The jury will never hear about that, because flight, although is evidence of risk, it has to be shortly at the time -- shortly near the scene of the event. And this was, what, a couple of days later.

GRACE: I say...

SANCHEZ: So, more likely than not, the jury`s never going to hear about that. He`ll be tried separately for that.

GRACE: Alex, I think it will come in. We`ll argue about that in just a moment.

Very quickly to tonight`s all-points bulletin. FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Francisco Martinez, Martinez wanted in connection with the shooting of his employer in Passaic, New Jersey, September 14, 2001. Martinez, 43, 5`8``, 350. If you have info, call the FBI, 973-792-3000.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of the Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us, as we remember an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, please call 1-888-GRACE-01, 888-472-2301. Or go to the Web site, CNN.com/NancyGrace.

I don`t know about you, but I will never forget 13-year-old Sarah Michelle Lunde. She had literally just come home from church, singing church songs with her youth fellowship class. She went missing that evening from her home. Her mother did not report her missing until the following Monday, two days later.

The man under arrest for this girl`s murder, David Onstott, a convicted sex offender, tried to make a prison break at 4:30 a.m. out of Orient Road Jail in Florida. Deputies heard a scratching sound coming from within unit six Charlie and found Onstott had broken off from the wall, welded to the wall, a towel rack and was using it as crude implement to make an escape.

Now, there`s a thought, Alex , defense attorney, that I can enjoy looking out my window and seeing this guy tromping across the backyard.

SANCHEZ: Yes, I got news for you. Why should Onstott try to escape from jail when, you know what? There`s a chance that he may walk out of that jail scot-free. And the reason is because the case is based entirely upon a statement of a confession that he allegedly made.

GRACE: Believe me, they got him to sign the Miranda. Don`t worry about that.

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Right. But he was represented by an attorney, because he had already been in jail on another case. And when you`re already represented by an attorney, you may not be able to just waive your Miranda rights without the presence of that lawyer. And if those statements get suppressed, he is walking out.

GRACE: Very quickly to Dr. Robi Ludwig. The mentality behind an escape attempt?

LUDWIG: I don`t deserve to be here. Who`s the system to tell me what to do? This person made me do it. I`m not to blame.

Rage, anger, entitlement and a primitive desire to free oneself. Not everybody feels guilty. Not everybody has those moralities in place.

GRACE: I want to thank all my guests tonight, but, as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world and Larry on CNN.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until tomorrow night, good night, friend.

END