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Nancy Grace
Triple Homicide in Idaho; Day 54 of Michael Jackson Trial
Aired May 17, 2005 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a triple homicide in Idaho. Two innocent children, possible witnesses to this horrific crime, are missing from the home. Help us find out what happened to an 8-year old girl and her 9-year old brother. Every minute counts tonight.
And we go live to California, day 54 of the Michael Jackson trial.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
Breaking news tonight. An Amber Alert after a triple homicide at their home. Two beautiful children go missing. Three people found there murdered last night. It`s in their Idaho home. And now 8-year old Shasta Groene and her 9-year old brother, Dylan, are missing.
Police say the mom, the missing children`s older brother, aged 13, and an unidentified adult male, all found dead in the home. We`re taking you live to Idaho.
But first, straight out to the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Tonight, in Atlanta, investigative reporter Art Harris is with us; in New York, defense attorneys Richard Herman and Bruce Koffsky; in L.A., psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall. And boy, do we need a shrink. And in Santa Maria, California, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez- Mitchell is with us.
Jane, hit me.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, the parade of defense witnesses continues. Two social workers took the stand and testified they interviewed this family now accusing Jackson just a couple of weeks after the Martin Bashir documentary aired.
Now, this is smack dab in the middle of the alleged conspiracy, at the very time this family said it is being held against its will allegedly, but they didn`t say that to the social workers. They didn`t complain to them. The social workers say they never asked for help at all.
Instead, they said, they praised Michael Jackson to the hilt, calling him an ideal father figure, even suggesting that Jackson had helped this boy recover from cancer.
Now, the prosecution, of course, contends that this mother was under duress, that Jackson`s henchmen were circling, that one of them had tried to stay unsuccessfully for this interview, and when told to leave, handed the mother a tape recorder and tried to force her to tape record the interview, and that this mother felt under the threat of retaliation, that they knew where her parents lived. What the jury will make of all of this, who the heck knows?
GRACE: Well, let me go back to you, Jane Velez. Why would Jackson`s cronies be there when this mom was speaking to the DFACS, Department of Family Children Services? Why would they feel it`s necessary to be there for that interview?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because people called after the Bashir documentary aired that showed this boy holding hands with Michael Jackson, him resting his head on Michael Jackson`s shoulder, and they were outraged and they wanted an investigation. They wanted to know if this mother was neglectful for allowing her children to stay at Neverland, possibly in Michael Jackson`s bed.
So theoretically, if the mother had said something incriminating about Michael Jackson, that could have been very, very bad news for the King of Pop. So he obviously wanted to know what this family was going to say.
Now, interestingly enough, this is all before the molestation allegedly occurred. So even though the boy said nothing happened, I don`t think that`s very significant, since prosecutors are saying that the alleged molestation didn`t happen until after this interview, which was held on February 20, 2003.
GRACE: Let`s go to investigative reporter Art Harris. Art, what do you make of the DFACS investigation?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Nancy, my prosecution sources at the time were telling me this report was, quote, "not worth the paper it was printed on," for several reasons that Jane mentioned. Number one, any alleged molestation had not yet occurred. Number two, there was a huge intimidation factor, with this Jackson aide (INAUDIBLE) really watching over their shoulders to make sure that they said the right things.
There was tremendous pressure, the mother had later told, you know, investigators. And that`s what they were feeling. They put on a good act, according to the prosecution.
GRACE: You know, I want to go to Richard Herman, defense attorney. Richard, a lot of time has been spent by the prosecution in the Jackson case focusing on a so-called conspiracy, a conspiracy where Jackson`s hench-people are allegedly to have kept the family there on Neverland, not let them leave.
Let me ask you something, Richard. You know, this family, this little boy`s family, had their whole apartment cleaned out by the Jackson gang, all right? Cleaned out, furnishings, papers, pictures, you name it, and put in storage.
The last month`s rent was paid on the apartment by the Jackson people. And the mom couldn`t get her furniture back. You have got a one-way ticket for the family to Brazil. You have travel papers, visas, documentation, got for the family by Jackson. What do you make of it, Richard?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, Nancy, there`s a lot of conjecture there.
GRACE: No, there`s not. No, there`s not. Those are facts in evidence.
HERMAN: They`re facts in evidence, but we don`t know the balance of the facts, whether or not Jackson was going to buy them a house or buy them another place to live.
GRACE: What? What?
HERMAN: We don`t know. We don`t know about this...
GRACE: Do you have one shred, a scintilla, a shred of evidence to suggest that Jackson was buying them a home? Are you just making that up tonight?
HERMAN: I don`t have that. But what I do know...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You`re making it up? OK, it`s free country.
HERMAN: No, Nancy. What I have is this...
GRACE: It`s a free country. Say whatever you want to. It`s just B.S., but go ahead.
HERMAN: With each defense witness that Mesereau puts on, the prosecution`s case is being dismantling. And Nancy Grace, I saw you on "LARRY KING" last week, and even you and your 90 pounds of tiger meat could not help Sneddon`s case.
GRACE: That was not on "LARRY KING." That was with Jiminy Glick.
HERMAN: Who was covering for "LARRY KING."
GRACE: Very quickly -- thank you for the compliment, I think -- to Bruce Koffsky.
Bruce, since Richard Herman so artfully dodged the question, how can you explain the Jackson people cleaning out this woman`s apartment, putting all of her possessions in storage, refusing to give her her stuff back, one-way ticket to Brazil for her and the family, getting all their visas and travel documents together? Got any idea why Jackson would want this kid and his family out of the country?
BRUCE KOFFSKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I don`t have to tell you anything. You know that the victims in this case, or the Jacksons in this case, don`t have to prove anything. It`s the prosecution...
GRACE: I`m asking you.
KOFFSKY: It`s the prosecution that has to prove something. And in this very case, every time a defense witness takes the stand, a little piece of the prosecution`s tree gets nibbled away. And at the end of the case, that tree is going to come tumbling down.
GRACE: OK, you know, I`m going to try one more person. P.S., note to self, when charged with a felony, hire Bruce Koffsky and Richard Herman. They refuse to answer questions.
Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, help me out here. Why won`t anybody touch this fact? Isn`t it in evidence, Jane Velez-Mitchell, that the apartment was cleaned out by the Jackson cohorts?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, I think the big issue here -- I remember sitting in this very courtroom when they announced the conspiracy charge, which of course did not exist when they originally raided Neverland and they originally charged Jackson. This was only after the grand jury.
And I kind of naively turned to someone and said, "Is that really bad news for Jackson or not?" And they looked at me like I was an idiot. And they said, "Of course, it`s bad news for Jackson." Well, guess what? This conspiracy charge may have been the best thing that ever happened to Michael Jackson. It`s so confusing, it`s so convoluted, with 28 alleged overt acts.
GRACE: Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s very hard to make heads or tails of.
GRACE: Jane? Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they may throw the baby out with the bath water.
GRACE: Jane, Jane, did they clean out the woman`s apartment and refuse to give her her belongings?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
GRACE: Thank you. Did they try to arrange a one-way ticket to Brazil? Yes, no?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
GRACE: OK.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Allegedly, yes.
GRACE: Bethany Marshall, why won`t anybody touch these facts with a ten-foot pole?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Because they don`t understand the frame of the mind of the mother. She is so immature. She`s like a 14- year-old little girl. One day she feels one thing; another day she feels the next. It`s conceivable that at one point she was excited about a trip to Brazil, and going to the spa (INAUDIBLE) and a Brazilian wax, and that the next week then she felt terrified and she felt abducted.
And for this kind of personality, it`s probably the fact that both feeling states felts equally true. It`s just that her experiences aren`t integrated. She feels one way one day, one way the next. And if the allegations are true, the Michael Jackson camp took the days where she felt that she wanted to go to Brazil. And they exploited her frame of mind on those particular days.
GRACE: To Art Harris. Art, I have got a feeling that you may react like me if you went home to your place and everything was gone, moved into a storage unit, and Michael Jackson`s peeps had it all, and they would not give it back to you. Why won`t anybody address this? He`s trying to get them out of the country, or at least his people are, cleaned out their apartment.
HARRIS: Nancy, this is a mother who felt brainwashed. I have a copy of her exclusive police interview with the Santa Barbara detectives. And what she says is that she thought this was very peculiar, that they wanted to move her things out.
They didn`t want to move them out, though, Nancy, until they found out that she had letters Michael Jackson had written her son and a pet rabbit that she says Michael wanted her son to call Michael, among other things.
GRACE: OK. This is the first news I have heard of the Michael rabbit. Art Harris, investigative reporter, hold that thought. Take a listen to what Raymone Bain had to say today after court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Can you say if Michael is encouraged today?
RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPOKESPERSON: Michael has a great deal of confidence in his defense team. He was encouraged some days even during the prosecution`s case. His team did a great job in cross-examining some of the witnesses during that time.
He is hearing people come in to give his side of what happened. He`s been vilified, and he`s concerned about that. And he`s looking forward to the truth coming out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live tonight in Santa Maria, California, with the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. And at the bottom of the hour, we are taking you to Idaho. There`s an Amber Alert tonight for an 8-year-old and a 9-year-old. Their whole family has been wiped out, murdered, and they are missing tonight. Please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAIN: Michael has said that he shares his bed with children. He does not see anything wrong with that, because it is not criminal. And he sleeps on the floor or on a cot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thanks for being with us.
Let`s go straight back out to Santa Maria, California. You know, Jane Velez-Mitchell -- she is a correspondent with "Celebrity Justice" -- you`re right. The conspiracy charge kind of took over the whole courtroom. It did, when the heart of the case is all about child molestation and feeding alcohol to a minor -- P.S., that is very sick under cancer treatment.
But the reality is, points made about the conspiracy theory have helped support the molestation, even if the jury, as you say may throw out the baby with the bath water, still these conspiracy points may have helped with the other charges.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it just seems to me, every time we get toward the allegations of molestation, the prosecution`s case seems to get stronger. And every time we get toward the conspiracy aspect of the case, the defense case seems to get stronger.
The problem with the whole conspiracy is that you have the mother and the kids on tape, and in this DCFS interview with social workers, basically saying the opposite of what they supposedly believed. So the prosecution is in the very bizarre position of having to argue that they are not telling the truth and the defense is in the odd position of having to argue, yes, they are telling the truth. It`s kind of an upside-down world.
GRACE: Question, Jane Velez-Mitchell, on cross-examination, didn`t the DFACS worker have to admit she never bothered to speak to Michael Jackson?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I mean, the prosecution tried to argue this whole interview by social workers was a sham, that basically they took the family`s word for whatever they said. They never went to Neverland. They never talked to anybody else about what they may have seen about Michael Jackson allegedly sleeping in the bed with this accuser or anybody else.
And what the social worker said in turn was that Neverland was really beyond their jurisdiction. They were based in Los Angeles and they couldn`t go that far. But it wasn`t that thorough of an investigation, from what we heard.
GRACE: Well, the reality is, Art Harris, how far away can a Jackson camp get from the fact that Jackson goes on the Bashir documentary and admits to sleeping -- didn`t he say with this boy or with other little boys?
HARRIS: There are lots of different stories about where Michael Jackson actually slept with different boys at different times. And he talks about sleeping in the bed with Macaulay Culkin and his little brother. Here, he talks about sleeping sometimes in the bed, sometimes in a cot, on his sleeping bag.
I mean, you have got to be a Boy Scout leader to be able to tell, you know, where they were camping out at all times, it seems. But lots of contradictions here.
But getting back to this, you know, this police report that the mother talked about where the stuff is stored, Nancy, do you know who put everything in storage? It was Mark Geragos` private investigator.
GRACE: Ruh-roh. Now, what does that mean for Geragos?
HARRIS: Well, he could be questioned about this on Friday. If the prosecution is smart, they will ask him about, "Why did it take months for you all to give back the furniture of this mother and her family?"
GRACE: You know, and the family, you know, they don`t have anything. They don`t have any money. They don`t have a college degree like all of us who are sitting around talking about this mom being wacky.
You know what? Everybody on this panel either has a law degree or a journalism degree, came from a nice home where people took care of you and pushed you through school. They didn`t have any of this.
And to have everything they owned taken away and put in a storage unit by one of the most powerful men in the world, Jackson, I don`t know. I have got a problem with that. It seems to me as if he was moving them out of the country. But you know, maybe I`m wrong.
To Richard Herman, defense attorney, Richard, how good of a defense is it, that, "Hey, here are three kids. I didn`t molest them. Yes, I slept with, you know, hundreds of kids, but these three I didn`t molest." That`s the defense?
HERMAN: Hey, Nancy, the molestation for one person right now, this accuser. And this accuser has already been destroyed by witnesses with respect to the drinking charges, the witness, the accuser, testified that he only drank with Michael Jackson. And just recently, defense witnesses have said on three separate occasions they saw this young accuser drinking at Neverland when Michael wasn`t around. That goes right to his credibility.
GRACE: Yes, always at Neverland. But you`re right.
You know, it sounds like there were no rules there, Bethany Marshall, that Neverland was just a big party where kids could stay up all night. They could eat whatever they want, drink alcohol, look at porn.
MARSHALL: Right. But I think something more sinister was happening, and that is -- children under times of stress, children will treat adults how the adults are treating them. So if the allegations are true, this accuser may have said, "Hey, Michael Jackson, you are putting your hands on my private property, I`m going to put my hands on your private property. You`re threatening me and holding me hostage? I`m going to hold your chef`s assistant hostage with a knife."
And so, the defacing of the property, the grabbing of the alcohol, the taking of things that weren`t theirs, in fact, reflected how they felt Michael Jackson was treating them.
GRACE: And you know, Jane Velez-Mitchell, the other day in court -- I think it was yesterday -- the boys took a beating. They were described as being misbehaving, rambunctious, rude. You know, I don`t know if you have ever covered other child molestation cases, but child molestation victims act just like that.
They get out of control. Their grades drop. They get bad habits. They`ll start, for instance, biting their fingernails. They`ll talk back to their parents. They won`t behave. Sometimes they wet the bed, even into later years, such as 8-, 9-, 10-years-old. They become problems, behavioral problems at school. So none of this really surprised me.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you know, there seemed to be absolutely no rules at all at Neverland for any youngsters. For example, Michael Jackson`s cousin, who`s 16 now, took the stand today. And she said, when she was there in 2003, she spotted the accuser and his kid brother going in and taking some wine bottles from the kitchen.
Interestingly enough, she said it was 1:00 in the morning and she was sitting near the kitchen playing video games. And the first thing I thought of was, "Why is a kid that age playing video games at 1:00 in the morning?" It seems like these kids just had the run of the place all day and all night.
And that in itself is very disturbing. When the man who accuses Michael Jackson -- the majordomo -- says he is delivering French fries, it`s at 3:00 in the morning, to Michael Jackson playing video games with Macaulay Culkin. Just the fact that these children are up at that hour raises a question.
GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We are live in Santa Maria. And I am waiting to take you to Idaho where there is a very serious Amber Alert tonight and time is of the essence. We`re going to hook you up to our satellite truck in just a few moments.
An 8-year-old and 9-year-old missing, their whole family dead tonight, found dead in their home.
Quickly, to "Trial Tracking": Today, it`s no bail, says the judge in the murder case of an international writer, Christa Worthington. Christopher McCowen, who collected trash at Worthington`s home, is facing trial in the rape and stabbing death of Christa Worthington. Her daughter, 2-years-old at the time, was found with her mom`s body a full day after the death. DNA links McCowen to the murder, allegedly. McCowen pled not guilty to all charges.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: D-day, Friday. Mark Geragos back on the stand in the Michael Jackson trial.
Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.
We are live in Santa Maria, California, and the latest in the Jackson trial. Then shortly, we are taking you to Idaho where there is an Amber Alert for two kids tonight, 8- and 9-years-old.
First, straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice." Jane, tell me is Larry -- everybody knows I`m talking about Larry King -- is Larry really going to be subpoenaed into court and have to take the stand along with Jay Leno?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are told Larry King is going to be here on Thursday, then Mark Geragos on Friday, then Jay Leno on Monday. So it`s going to be quite a week. Explosive testimony expected.
GRACE: Now, now, wait a minute. Explosive testimony? We don`t know -- of course, Larry is under a gag order. He`s not talking. We don`t know if Larry really even knows anything about this case or if Jay Leno knows about this case.
Remember, Jane Velez, at the get-go, Mesereau in the opening statement said, "Oh, well, the Laugh Factory guy, Massada (ph), the female comic, all these various people are going to say how this boy and his mom tried to get money out of them, grifters"? They haven`t said that at all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, when it comes to Jay Leno, the boy said he never spoke to Jay Leno. And the reports are that Jay Leno may take the stand and said, yes, this boy did call him, and that he heard the mother in the background of the phone conversation, and he became quite suspicious, that he felt that they were looking out for money or up to no good.
So we shall see. Nobody says exactly what`s expected in this case. So I`ve given up predicting exactly what anybody is going to say.
GRACE: Well, I have got my fingers crossed for Larry King to, you know, endure cross-examination. You know, he is kind of shy. He may not say very much. He doesn`t like to talk very much. Hey, take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAIN: Michael wasn`t there a lot of the times that the children were sneaking the alcohol. So I mean, it`s like someone coming to your house. You`re not going to be able to look at them 24/7.
You are going to hope that there is some honor system. You`re going to hope that people that you have in your house have integrity and that they know how to act. And what we`re seeing here coming out in court, open court, is that they did not know how to act. There was not a lot of integrity, and they did take advantage of the situation. And that`s unfortunate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Integrity? Art Harris, I have got 20 seconds left. They`re kids. Integrity, are you kidding?
HARRIS: This was Neverland and there were no rules. And you know, the fact that you have someone who is in Michael Jackson`s camp actually raining on their parade in public, I don`t know, Nancy. That`s sort of smacks up against the gag order, doesn`t it?
GRACE: OK, everybody, dig in for Friday, D-Day, Geragos back in court.
Thank you to my Jackson panel.
As we go to break, I want to remind you, we here at NANCY GRACE want very much to help find missing people, solve unsolved homicides. Take a look at Ashley Martinez. She disappeared July 2004, Saint Joseph, Missouri. If you have any information on Ashley, please call Saint Joseph police.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, OF SHERIFFS DEPT. COEUR D`ALENE, IDAHO: About 6:15 last night, we got a call of suspicious circumstances of residence here on Frontage Road. When deputies arrived, they found three deceased people inside the residence. They swept the residence, didn`t find anybody who was injured, needing assistance. They backed out, sealed the place up, contacted investigators. By law, the investigators had to get a search warrant at that point to -- that took until a little after midnight. They`re meeting right now with the state forensic people and, giving a briefing with that team, that investigative team, and will be out here in the next 30, 45 minutes to start the actual investigation at the scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Breaks news out of in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, tonight. An Amber Alert, an 8-year-old and a 9-year-old missing, their entire family wiped out. The family found dead in their home, there in Coeur d`Alene. With us tonight from Kootenai County Sheriff`s office, captain Ben Wolfinger. Also with us, of course, "Beyond Missing`s" Marc Klaas, joining us. Tonight, on the scene, CNN reporter, Sean Callebs. First to Sean.
Sean, bring us update to date, friend.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well we can tell you, Nancy, that authorities identified the three victims. Brenda Groene, she is someone, a female estimated to be somewhere in late 30s, early 40s, she has two grown children not involved this. Also, her 13-year-old son, Slade Groene, also a victim of a homicide here, authorities found last night, and Mark McKenzie who is said to be the boyfriend of Brenda Groene. Authorities have no idea how old he is.
But really, Nancy, you hit on the -- one of the serious points of all this, the fact there is the Amber Alert. Authorities, the FBI, authorities from Idaho, authorities from neighboring Washington state, doing what they can, trying to find the 8-year-old child Shasta Groene, she`s about just under 4 feet, very slight, about 40 pounds, and Dylan Groene he is 9 years old, he`s a little heavier, about 60 pounds. There`s Amber Alerts all over the drive here on I-90. We saw three separate highway signs listing the information for those two children and tonight the search is out across the country.
GRACE: I think I have some of those ages. I`ve just gotten them, Sean, the mother, 40-year-old Brenda Groene, the boyfriend Mark McKenzie, age 37, and the age you gave me, 13-year-old Slade Groene. I want to go quickly to Captain Ben Wolfinger.
Sir, what can you tell us about the investigation tonight? You got a whole family, basically, wiped out, two kids missing.
WOLFINGER: Well, the investigators started this morning working in the outside of the residence, right to the road working their way into the residence. Late this afternoon, they went inside the residence to start the processing the scene inside. About 45 minutes, an hour ago, they were able to remove the bodies and take them to the forensic pathologist. The autopsies will be done tomorrow. They`ll be here late into the evening and probably late tomorrow as well processing the inside of the residence.
GRACE: Can you tell us the cause of death?
WOLFINGER: No, we can`t at this point. After the autopsies, tomorrow, we`ll be able to narrow it down. We know it was a traumatic death, there was a good amount of blood in the house, but that`s all we know at this time.
GRACE: Was the house in disarray? Where there signs of a break- in or a robbery?
WOLFINGER: Well, there was no sign of a break will have in, according to the neighbor who called us and reported the suspicious circumstances. But we don`t know about the robbery at this point, that`ll come with the processing of the scene inside.
GRACE: Captain, was there any sign of a sex attack on the victims?
WOLFINGER: I don`t know at this point. That`ll be in the processing at the autopsy and the report that comes from them.
GRACE: Well, that says to me there was no overt sign. In other words, the victims were not unclothed or in posed in unusual positions. I`m gathering from what you`re saying fully clothed and you will only know a sex attack once their bodies have been autopsied. You know, it says to me, back to Sean Callebs, that obviously the same person took the kids that wanted to kill the family. Or kill the family to get the kids. It`s got to be somebody that knows this family.
CALLEBS: Well that`s what -- well, think about it, too. I mean, if this -- this is the home, you can se it behind us, the yellow tape. This is an area that`s pretty far away from the main town, in terms of an area this small. And also, one thing we did find out from the sheriff`s office, 40-year-old Brenda Groene have a history of trouble with drugs, she has been arrested on at least one occasion that we know of. The authorities trying to determine just how many times she has.
GRACE: Whoop, whoop, whoop. Before we start saying the mom has trouble, for all I know, it could be a bounced check. Hey, a lot of people -- including a couple of people on this set can plead guilty to that, tonight. Now, when you say she`s been in trouble, what do you mean by that?
CALLEBS: Well, she`s been arrested for drugs, Nancy.
GRACE: Oh, OK.
CALLEBS: That`s one thing that the captain told me a minute ago. Maybe I didn`t make that terribly clear a moment ago, but that`s what we`re trying to find out. This is a house that`s, as I mentioned, off the beaten path and it is not just some.
GRACE: Oh, man.
CALLEBS: .some random incident, you think, where somebody would go in and kill three people and also two children missing, so really the captain tells us there are two parallel investigations going on this evening, the FBI really focusing on the missing children. If you look around us, this is a very lush area, it simply poured here last night, that`s what the police tell us, so that`s going to make any kind of investigation that much more difficult. We asked what the best set of circumstances could be, and the captain says he hopes that whoever took these children will drop them off somewhere safe and sound and notify authorities and then that, hopefully, is a way they`ll try to find Shasta and Dylan. But you know, Nancy, as time goes on, it`s been 24 hours since authorities first got to this crime scene, the news gets a little more bleak.
GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, I was going under the theory that this is such a small town, that it had to be somebody that knew the family, but now I know there`s a drug arrest in the background of one of the decedents, that changes the whole picture. For all we -- and this is a rural area, but the house is situated on an access road, you know roads running parallel to the interstate. People, truckers, you name it, going down the interstate, could see this house. So that does take it out of the small town milieu.
MARC KLAAS, "BEYOND MISSING": No, absolutely, there is an interstate near there, but you know, that drug arrest could have been 20 years ago for all we know. So, I don`t think we should push that conclusion. We -- just as in the case of the two children in Zion, Illinois, just a couple of weeks ago, there were two kids involved in this, and it makes it doubly difficult to control two children than one child, so that might lead you one direction. But I think what we have to understand is that the federal government has created an Amber Alert system that is really very problematic and the really created a very cumbersome kind of a bureaucracy. If it weren`t for cable news, I speculate that the word would not have gotten out nearly as quickly as it did on this case or in many other cases that are in confined areas. We`re dealing with Canada, we`re dealing with Montana, Idaho, Oregon, and Washington within a 200-mile radius of this situation. So, what we have to do is get the word out very quickly to everybody as one does, but I think that was more of a victory for the cable news industry than it was for the Amber Alert systems that are set up.
GRACE: Good point, good point, Marc Klaas. And everyone, Marc Klaas has lived through this ordeal himself. He`s not just a victims` rights advocate. He is a crime victim, as you can see, he`s wearing the pin of his daughter, Polly, who was abducted many years ago.
Very quickly, back to Sean Callebs, and captain don`t move a hair, please stay with us.
Sean, any date on that arrest of the mom? That alleged arrest, the drug arrest of the mom? Because, frankly, in my mind, that change it is scenario. If you`re by an interstate, there is a drug issue going on in the family. If there is a killing over drugs, then these two kids were witnesses, but why kill one kid and take the other two, if they were all witnesses?
CALLEBS: You know, I really can want answer those questions. And one thing, in talking to the captain, and we`ve been here talking to him for a while before coming on the air and really doesn`t want to overstate that. We don`t know when the arrest was. The captain has been out here at the crime scene, basically, the past 24 hours. We ask him the questions, just like anybody would. What`s going on here? Why would someone come and kill three people? That`s when I asked, is there a history with drugs? He said, yes, she has some involvement with drugs. Didn`t know any specifics on any date, what she`d been arrested for, anything of -- along those lines.
And really Nancy, one thing else I would like to point out too, the biological father, Steve Groene, last night, authorities spoke at length with him. Steve Groene is said to be terribly distraught and at this point, he is not a suspect, at all. Authorities have no reason to believe that he is involved in this, whatsoever. He has certainly lost a former wife and a 13-year-old son and certainly panicked of both 9-year-old son and 8-year-old daughter are missing this evening.
GRACE: Captain Ben Wolfinger is with us with the Kootenai County Sheriff`s Office. Captain, I`m so glad you said that, because of course, all investigations start with the family and then move out. Because statistically, that`s normally who commits a homicide. Somebody you know, somebody in your family, somebody you work with. How is the scene being processed? Is it done yet, captain?
WOLFINGER: No. And I guess that`s the thing is that we`re really taking our time here; we want to do this right. We brought in the best people we have, here in Idaho, to process this scene. And, we`re going to take our time and just, you know, dot every "I" and cross every "T" to make sure this is all done correctly.
GRACE: Captain, I`m just sick that it started raining because a tiny bit of evidence, a scrap of material, a footprint, even could make all the difference.
WOLFINGER: Absolutely.
GRACE: And with the rain.
WOLFINGER: You`re right, Nancy. It rained here hard last night and we recognize that, but there was just no way to stop the rain or protect the scene. It`s a pretty wide open area right here, you know. Fortunately, though, all three bodies were found in the residence, all that crime scene was protected. Once the initial officers on the scene swept the residence and made sure there was no one inside who needed help, they just backed out, sealed the place up, and waited for investigators to get here and begin this processing.
GRACE: Captain, I`ve got a lot more questions for you and I don`t want to jeopardize your investigation, but this is such an upsetting story. Elizabeth, let`s go out with a shot of the boy and the girl.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. ROCKY WATSON, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: We don`t have any leads of abductions or directions of travel or people of interest, so we`re just doing everything we can. We`re starting the search around the house and we use cadaver dogs around the house and tracking dogs in surrounding the area and at the same time we`re doing the Amber Alert instead of starting small and working out, we`re just doing everything we can early because time is the essence with children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, truer words were never spoken. Time is of the essence. An 8-year-old, a 9-year-old missing, tonight. Here they are. Their family, basically, wiped out, murdered in their Idaho home. And it`s a small town, but it`s -- the home was situated near an access road, easily seen off the interstate.
To psychoanalyst, Bethany Marshall.
Bethany, why would, just common sense, why would somebody kill the three people including a 13-year-old child and abduct the other two children if the children were not the target?
MARSHALL: Right. Well, this is an extremely rare situation. Only one half of one percent of all homicides involve three family members. And usually when there`s so many family members, it`s someone within the family that perpetrates the crime, but that`s ruled out in this case, so I think there`s one of two possibilities. One is that there was somebody who was on a mission to punish the family or retaliate in some way, but the second, and I think the more terrible possibility for these two children is that this could have been a sexual sadist and that he thought nothing of getting rid of the family members so that he could have access to the children and now he`s in a state of sexual frenzy and agitation and that the children are at great risk.
GRACE: To Bruce Koffsky. What should be a focus -- what should be the focus of the crime scene investigation?
KOFFSKY: I think the crime scene investigation should look at all the forensics. They`re going to sweep the carpets; they`re going to sweep the wall for blood splatter. They`re going to look on the ground for footprints, tire tracks. I mean, this could easily have been somebody driving off the interstate, a crime of opportunity, grabbing the children, taking them as hostages, making sure he had enough in the way of hostage.
GRACE: A crime of opportunity?
KOFFSKY: Absolutely.
GRACE: Now, that`s a good theory in my mind for a movie, but Richard Herman, crime of opportunity? How convenient is it to go wipe out a family, a man, a woman and a 13-year-old boy and kidnap two kids? That doesn`t sound like much of an opportunity.
HERMAN: No, it doesn`t. I think this is some sort of revenge factor here like it was just discussed previously and this person is absolutely snapped. I mean, to kill, slaughter three people like that and take the little kids, I just hope they find the kids, because...
GRACE: As you see, two veteran criminal defense attorneys disagree, Richard Herman and Bruce Koffsky have both handled homicide cases. To the Captain Ben Wolfinger. Captain, I -- that sounds to elaborate to me. Oh sorry, guys, we`ve lost him (INAUDIBLE) we`ll go back to him.
Do we have Sean, Elizabeth?
OK. We`ll get right -- hooked right back up to the satellite in just a moment. I`ll go to Marc Klaas.
Marc, it just seems like such a fantastical scenario, that people are killed over revenge. Isn`t that mostly in the movies?
KLAAS: No. I think it happens all the time. You know, in January of nine -- January of `04, in Ranger, Georgia, Jerry Jones committed a quadruple murder and then kidnapped three little girls and then drove around, apparently aimlessly for the next 24 hours.
GRACE: Right. What year was that?
KLAAS: That was last year.
GRACE: OK.
KLAAS: Last January.
GRACE: Yep.
KLAAS: And in fact, those children were ultimately recovered, but it was the same kind of a situation where you had a -- over a multistate Amber Alert that wasn`t effectively responded to by anybody other than the cable news networks, so...
GRACE: Well, you know what? I`m just not buying into this revenge, you kill three people over revenge. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: Our main concern right now, are the two children we cannot find. We`re do -- we`ve got search dogs and the search and rescue teams working immediate area. Surrounding law enforcement agencies are notified Amber Alert trying to find out where the children are or what happens to them.
We don`t have any leads of abductions or directions of travel or people of interest, so we`re just doing everything we can. We`re starting the search around the house and we use cadaver dogs around the house and tracking dogs in the surrounding area and at the same time we`re doing the Amber Alert instead of starting small and working out, we`re just doing everything we can early because time is the essence with children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Captain Ben Wolfinger, we`ve got our satellite connection back. All these stories about revenge killings and drug killings, in my practice of felony crimes, that has been few and far between. It`s never really that elaborate.
WOLFINGER: Well, I guess I don`t follow your question, Grace.
GRACE: Well, people are wondering the possible motivation to wipe out an entire family and take these two kids.
WOLFINGER: Well, I guess that`s a question we`re certainly asking, our investigators are certainly asking here, but and hopefully more will come as we process the evidence and learn who is responsible for this crime.
GRACE: Guys, don`t move, we`re going to be right back with the Captain Ben Wolfinger and Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent, there in Idaho. Let`s quickly go to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin."
FBI and law enforcement across the nation are on the lookout for this man: Jimmy Polite. Wanted by the FBI in connection with the 1996 rape of a Mississippi girl. He`s 48, 6` 5", black hair, brown eyes. Any info call the FBI at 601-948-5000. Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember live coverage of the Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on "Court TV."
Please stay with us as we remember an American hero.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Shasta Groene is just 8 years old, she`s only 3` 10" tall. Her brother, Dylan Groene, 9 years old, 4`, 60 pounds. They`re missing tonight out of Idaho. Please take a look. Nearly their entire family has been wiped out. The family found in the home, the two kids missing. Let me go straight back to CNN correspondent, there on the scene, Sean Callebs with us.
Sean, describe the area for me.
CALLEBS: Yeah. This -- Coeur d`Alene is really something that`s made the transition from a logging and mining area into a tourist area over the past 15 years. It`s a town of about 40,000 in the summer; it swells to more than 100,000. A lot of transients, in the sense that a lot of people come in for a short time, enjoy these woods then move on.
And one other interesting point, Nancy, a lot of law enforcement retire to this area. The captain says there are legions of cops and sheriff`s officers who have retired to this area and he say those are people who are curious by nature. So, if they notice something out of the norm, they`re going to check it out, they`re going to ask questions and they`re also going to call the local sheriff`s office and try and point them in any kind of direction and the sheriff says that`s been a big help in the past and certainly, they hope it is going to be a big help again.
GRACE: And to Captain Wolfinger, you know, every hour counts. If those kids are in a car right now, every hour is another 75 miles away or so. Are your people working the scene around the clock, captain?
WOLFINGER: Yes, they are. They`ve been here since late last -- yesterday afternoon, early evening, and they`ll continue to work this scene. We`ve got a tip line set up now, in our office, so people can call right in. I think you`ve got that number and anyone who sees...
GRACE: Oh, what is it? What is it?
WOLFINGER: It`s area code 208-446-2922.
GRACE: Two, nine, two, two. And captain, you have brought in the cadaver dogs and there`s no response, right?
WOLFINGER: No response. We brought cadaver dogs and tracking dogs in this morning, as well as a helicopter to search the area around the residence, the 40 or 50 acres around this residence. A lot of brush, lot of tall grass it`s kind of marshy in the area and so we wanted to bring the dogs right -- in as soon as possible, as well as the helicopter. See if we can find anything in the area of the residence.
GRACE: Well, even the rain wouldn`t stop a cadaver dog, and that the high point for me is that they haven`t hit on anything around the home. Thank you to all of my guests.
My biggest thank you to you for being with us again tonight, inviting us into your home. Coming up, "Headlines Around the World." Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you tomorrow. Good night, friend.
END
Aired May 17, 2005 - 20:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a triple homicide in Idaho. Two innocent children, possible witnesses to this horrific crime, are missing from the home. Help us find out what happened to an 8-year old girl and her 9-year old brother. Every minute counts tonight.
And we go live to California, day 54 of the Michael Jackson trial.
Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.
Breaking news tonight. An Amber Alert after a triple homicide at their home. Two beautiful children go missing. Three people found there murdered last night. It`s in their Idaho home. And now 8-year old Shasta Groene and her 9-year old brother, Dylan, are missing.
Police say the mom, the missing children`s older brother, aged 13, and an unidentified adult male, all found dead in the home. We`re taking you live to Idaho.
But first, straight out to the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Tonight, in Atlanta, investigative reporter Art Harris is with us; in New York, defense attorneys Richard Herman and Bruce Koffsky; in L.A., psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall. And boy, do we need a shrink. And in Santa Maria, California, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez- Mitchell is with us.
Jane, hit me.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, the parade of defense witnesses continues. Two social workers took the stand and testified they interviewed this family now accusing Jackson just a couple of weeks after the Martin Bashir documentary aired.
Now, this is smack dab in the middle of the alleged conspiracy, at the very time this family said it is being held against its will allegedly, but they didn`t say that to the social workers. They didn`t complain to them. The social workers say they never asked for help at all.
Instead, they said, they praised Michael Jackson to the hilt, calling him an ideal father figure, even suggesting that Jackson had helped this boy recover from cancer.
Now, the prosecution, of course, contends that this mother was under duress, that Jackson`s henchmen were circling, that one of them had tried to stay unsuccessfully for this interview, and when told to leave, handed the mother a tape recorder and tried to force her to tape record the interview, and that this mother felt under the threat of retaliation, that they knew where her parents lived. What the jury will make of all of this, who the heck knows?
GRACE: Well, let me go back to you, Jane Velez. Why would Jackson`s cronies be there when this mom was speaking to the DFACS, Department of Family Children Services? Why would they feel it`s necessary to be there for that interview?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because people called after the Bashir documentary aired that showed this boy holding hands with Michael Jackson, him resting his head on Michael Jackson`s shoulder, and they were outraged and they wanted an investigation. They wanted to know if this mother was neglectful for allowing her children to stay at Neverland, possibly in Michael Jackson`s bed.
So theoretically, if the mother had said something incriminating about Michael Jackson, that could have been very, very bad news for the King of Pop. So he obviously wanted to know what this family was going to say.
Now, interestingly enough, this is all before the molestation allegedly occurred. So even though the boy said nothing happened, I don`t think that`s very significant, since prosecutors are saying that the alleged molestation didn`t happen until after this interview, which was held on February 20, 2003.
GRACE: Let`s go to investigative reporter Art Harris. Art, what do you make of the DFACS investigation?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Nancy, my prosecution sources at the time were telling me this report was, quote, "not worth the paper it was printed on," for several reasons that Jane mentioned. Number one, any alleged molestation had not yet occurred. Number two, there was a huge intimidation factor, with this Jackson aide (INAUDIBLE) really watching over their shoulders to make sure that they said the right things.
There was tremendous pressure, the mother had later told, you know, investigators. And that`s what they were feeling. They put on a good act, according to the prosecution.
GRACE: You know, I want to go to Richard Herman, defense attorney. Richard, a lot of time has been spent by the prosecution in the Jackson case focusing on a so-called conspiracy, a conspiracy where Jackson`s hench-people are allegedly to have kept the family there on Neverland, not let them leave.
Let me ask you something, Richard. You know, this family, this little boy`s family, had their whole apartment cleaned out by the Jackson gang, all right? Cleaned out, furnishings, papers, pictures, you name it, and put in storage.
The last month`s rent was paid on the apartment by the Jackson people. And the mom couldn`t get her furniture back. You have got a one-way ticket for the family to Brazil. You have travel papers, visas, documentation, got for the family by Jackson. What do you make of it, Richard?
RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Oh, Nancy, there`s a lot of conjecture there.
GRACE: No, there`s not. No, there`s not. Those are facts in evidence.
HERMAN: They`re facts in evidence, but we don`t know the balance of the facts, whether or not Jackson was going to buy them a house or buy them another place to live.
GRACE: What? What?
HERMAN: We don`t know. We don`t know about this...
GRACE: Do you have one shred, a scintilla, a shred of evidence to suggest that Jackson was buying them a home? Are you just making that up tonight?
HERMAN: I don`t have that. But what I do know...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You`re making it up? OK, it`s free country.
HERMAN: No, Nancy. What I have is this...
GRACE: It`s a free country. Say whatever you want to. It`s just B.S., but go ahead.
HERMAN: With each defense witness that Mesereau puts on, the prosecution`s case is being dismantling. And Nancy Grace, I saw you on "LARRY KING" last week, and even you and your 90 pounds of tiger meat could not help Sneddon`s case.
GRACE: That was not on "LARRY KING." That was with Jiminy Glick.
HERMAN: Who was covering for "LARRY KING."
GRACE: Very quickly -- thank you for the compliment, I think -- to Bruce Koffsky.
Bruce, since Richard Herman so artfully dodged the question, how can you explain the Jackson people cleaning out this woman`s apartment, putting all of her possessions in storage, refusing to give her her stuff back, one-way ticket to Brazil for her and the family, getting all their visas and travel documents together? Got any idea why Jackson would want this kid and his family out of the country?
BRUCE KOFFSKY, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, I don`t have to tell you anything. You know that the victims in this case, or the Jacksons in this case, don`t have to prove anything. It`s the prosecution...
GRACE: I`m asking you.
KOFFSKY: It`s the prosecution that has to prove something. And in this very case, every time a defense witness takes the stand, a little piece of the prosecution`s tree gets nibbled away. And at the end of the case, that tree is going to come tumbling down.
GRACE: OK, you know, I`m going to try one more person. P.S., note to self, when charged with a felony, hire Bruce Koffsky and Richard Herman. They refuse to answer questions.
Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, help me out here. Why won`t anybody touch this fact? Isn`t it in evidence, Jane Velez-Mitchell, that the apartment was cleaned out by the Jackson cohorts?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nancy, I think the big issue here -- I remember sitting in this very courtroom when they announced the conspiracy charge, which of course did not exist when they originally raided Neverland and they originally charged Jackson. This was only after the grand jury.
And I kind of naively turned to someone and said, "Is that really bad news for Jackson or not?" And they looked at me like I was an idiot. And they said, "Of course, it`s bad news for Jackson." Well, guess what? This conspiracy charge may have been the best thing that ever happened to Michael Jackson. It`s so confusing, it`s so convoluted, with 28 alleged overt acts.
GRACE: Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s very hard to make heads or tails of.
GRACE: Jane? Jane?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And they may throw the baby out with the bath water.
GRACE: Jane, Jane, did they clean out the woman`s apartment and refuse to give her her belongings?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
GRACE: Thank you. Did they try to arrange a one-way ticket to Brazil? Yes, no?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
GRACE: OK.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Allegedly, yes.
GRACE: Bethany Marshall, why won`t anybody touch these facts with a ten-foot pole?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Because they don`t understand the frame of the mind of the mother. She is so immature. She`s like a 14- year-old little girl. One day she feels one thing; another day she feels the next. It`s conceivable that at one point she was excited about a trip to Brazil, and going to the spa (INAUDIBLE) and a Brazilian wax, and that the next week then she felt terrified and she felt abducted.
And for this kind of personality, it`s probably the fact that both feeling states felts equally true. It`s just that her experiences aren`t integrated. She feels one way one day, one way the next. And if the allegations are true, the Michael Jackson camp took the days where she felt that she wanted to go to Brazil. And they exploited her frame of mind on those particular days.
GRACE: To Art Harris. Art, I have got a feeling that you may react like me if you went home to your place and everything was gone, moved into a storage unit, and Michael Jackson`s peeps had it all, and they would not give it back to you. Why won`t anybody address this? He`s trying to get them out of the country, or at least his people are, cleaned out their apartment.
HARRIS: Nancy, this is a mother who felt brainwashed. I have a copy of her exclusive police interview with the Santa Barbara detectives. And what she says is that she thought this was very peculiar, that they wanted to move her things out.
They didn`t want to move them out, though, Nancy, until they found out that she had letters Michael Jackson had written her son and a pet rabbit that she says Michael wanted her son to call Michael, among other things.
GRACE: OK. This is the first news I have heard of the Michael rabbit. Art Harris, investigative reporter, hold that thought. Take a listen to what Raymone Bain had to say today after court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Can you say if Michael is encouraged today?
RAYMONE BAIN, MICHAEL JACKSON`S SPOKESPERSON: Michael has a great deal of confidence in his defense team. He was encouraged some days even during the prosecution`s case. His team did a great job in cross-examining some of the witnesses during that time.
He is hearing people come in to give his side of what happened. He`s been vilified, and he`s concerned about that. And he`s looking forward to the truth coming out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are live tonight in Santa Maria, California, with the latest in the Michael Jackson trial. And at the bottom of the hour, we are taking you to Idaho. There`s an Amber Alert tonight for an 8-year-old and a 9-year-old. Their whole family has been wiped out, murdered, and they are missing tonight. Please stay with us.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAIN: Michael has said that he shares his bed with children. He does not see anything wrong with that, because it is not criminal. And he sleeps on the floor or on a cot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thanks for being with us.
Let`s go straight back out to Santa Maria, California. You know, Jane Velez-Mitchell -- she is a correspondent with "Celebrity Justice" -- you`re right. The conspiracy charge kind of took over the whole courtroom. It did, when the heart of the case is all about child molestation and feeding alcohol to a minor -- P.S., that is very sick under cancer treatment.
But the reality is, points made about the conspiracy theory have helped support the molestation, even if the jury, as you say may throw out the baby with the bath water, still these conspiracy points may have helped with the other charges.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, it just seems to me, every time we get toward the allegations of molestation, the prosecution`s case seems to get stronger. And every time we get toward the conspiracy aspect of the case, the defense case seems to get stronger.
The problem with the whole conspiracy is that you have the mother and the kids on tape, and in this DCFS interview with social workers, basically saying the opposite of what they supposedly believed. So the prosecution is in the very bizarre position of having to argue that they are not telling the truth and the defense is in the odd position of having to argue, yes, they are telling the truth. It`s kind of an upside-down world.
GRACE: Question, Jane Velez-Mitchell, on cross-examination, didn`t the DFACS worker have to admit she never bothered to speak to Michael Jackson?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I mean, the prosecution tried to argue this whole interview by social workers was a sham, that basically they took the family`s word for whatever they said. They never went to Neverland. They never talked to anybody else about what they may have seen about Michael Jackson allegedly sleeping in the bed with this accuser or anybody else.
And what the social worker said in turn was that Neverland was really beyond their jurisdiction. They were based in Los Angeles and they couldn`t go that far. But it wasn`t that thorough of an investigation, from what we heard.
GRACE: Well, the reality is, Art Harris, how far away can a Jackson camp get from the fact that Jackson goes on the Bashir documentary and admits to sleeping -- didn`t he say with this boy or with other little boys?
HARRIS: There are lots of different stories about where Michael Jackson actually slept with different boys at different times. And he talks about sleeping in the bed with Macaulay Culkin and his little brother. Here, he talks about sleeping sometimes in the bed, sometimes in a cot, on his sleeping bag.
I mean, you have got to be a Boy Scout leader to be able to tell, you know, where they were camping out at all times, it seems. But lots of contradictions here.
But getting back to this, you know, this police report that the mother talked about where the stuff is stored, Nancy, do you know who put everything in storage? It was Mark Geragos` private investigator.
GRACE: Ruh-roh. Now, what does that mean for Geragos?
HARRIS: Well, he could be questioned about this on Friday. If the prosecution is smart, they will ask him about, "Why did it take months for you all to give back the furniture of this mother and her family?"
GRACE: You know, and the family, you know, they don`t have anything. They don`t have any money. They don`t have a college degree like all of us who are sitting around talking about this mom being wacky.
You know what? Everybody on this panel either has a law degree or a journalism degree, came from a nice home where people took care of you and pushed you through school. They didn`t have any of this.
And to have everything they owned taken away and put in a storage unit by one of the most powerful men in the world, Jackson, I don`t know. I have got a problem with that. It seems to me as if he was moving them out of the country. But you know, maybe I`m wrong.
To Richard Herman, defense attorney, Richard, how good of a defense is it, that, "Hey, here are three kids. I didn`t molest them. Yes, I slept with, you know, hundreds of kids, but these three I didn`t molest." That`s the defense?
HERMAN: Hey, Nancy, the molestation for one person right now, this accuser. And this accuser has already been destroyed by witnesses with respect to the drinking charges, the witness, the accuser, testified that he only drank with Michael Jackson. And just recently, defense witnesses have said on three separate occasions they saw this young accuser drinking at Neverland when Michael wasn`t around. That goes right to his credibility.
GRACE: Yes, always at Neverland. But you`re right.
You know, it sounds like there were no rules there, Bethany Marshall, that Neverland was just a big party where kids could stay up all night. They could eat whatever they want, drink alcohol, look at porn.
MARSHALL: Right. But I think something more sinister was happening, and that is -- children under times of stress, children will treat adults how the adults are treating them. So if the allegations are true, this accuser may have said, "Hey, Michael Jackson, you are putting your hands on my private property, I`m going to put my hands on your private property. You`re threatening me and holding me hostage? I`m going to hold your chef`s assistant hostage with a knife."
And so, the defacing of the property, the grabbing of the alcohol, the taking of things that weren`t theirs, in fact, reflected how they felt Michael Jackson was treating them.
GRACE: And you know, Jane Velez-Mitchell, the other day in court -- I think it was yesterday -- the boys took a beating. They were described as being misbehaving, rambunctious, rude. You know, I don`t know if you have ever covered other child molestation cases, but child molestation victims act just like that.
They get out of control. Their grades drop. They get bad habits. They`ll start, for instance, biting their fingernails. They`ll talk back to their parents. They won`t behave. Sometimes they wet the bed, even into later years, such as 8-, 9-, 10-years-old. They become problems, behavioral problems at school. So none of this really surprised me.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you know, there seemed to be absolutely no rules at all at Neverland for any youngsters. For example, Michael Jackson`s cousin, who`s 16 now, took the stand today. And she said, when she was there in 2003, she spotted the accuser and his kid brother going in and taking some wine bottles from the kitchen.
Interestingly enough, she said it was 1:00 in the morning and she was sitting near the kitchen playing video games. And the first thing I thought of was, "Why is a kid that age playing video games at 1:00 in the morning?" It seems like these kids just had the run of the place all day and all night.
And that in itself is very disturbing. When the man who accuses Michael Jackson -- the majordomo -- says he is delivering French fries, it`s at 3:00 in the morning, to Michael Jackson playing video games with Macaulay Culkin. Just the fact that these children are up at that hour raises a question.
GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We are live in Santa Maria. And I am waiting to take you to Idaho where there is a very serious Amber Alert tonight and time is of the essence. We`re going to hook you up to our satellite truck in just a few moments.
An 8-year-old and 9-year-old missing, their whole family dead tonight, found dead in their home.
Quickly, to "Trial Tracking": Today, it`s no bail, says the judge in the murder case of an international writer, Christa Worthington. Christopher McCowen, who collected trash at Worthington`s home, is facing trial in the rape and stabbing death of Christa Worthington. Her daughter, 2-years-old at the time, was found with her mom`s body a full day after the death. DNA links McCowen to the murder, allegedly. McCowen pled not guilty to all charges.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: D-day, Friday. Mark Geragos back on the stand in the Michael Jackson trial.
Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us.
We are live in Santa Maria, California, and the latest in the Jackson trial. Then shortly, we are taking you to Idaho where there is an Amber Alert for two kids tonight, 8- and 9-years-old.
First, straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice." Jane, tell me is Larry -- everybody knows I`m talking about Larry King -- is Larry really going to be subpoenaed into court and have to take the stand along with Jay Leno?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We are told Larry King is going to be here on Thursday, then Mark Geragos on Friday, then Jay Leno on Monday. So it`s going to be quite a week. Explosive testimony expected.
GRACE: Now, now, wait a minute. Explosive testimony? We don`t know -- of course, Larry is under a gag order. He`s not talking. We don`t know if Larry really even knows anything about this case or if Jay Leno knows about this case.
Remember, Jane Velez, at the get-go, Mesereau in the opening statement said, "Oh, well, the Laugh Factory guy, Massada (ph), the female comic, all these various people are going to say how this boy and his mom tried to get money out of them, grifters"? They haven`t said that at all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, when it comes to Jay Leno, the boy said he never spoke to Jay Leno. And the reports are that Jay Leno may take the stand and said, yes, this boy did call him, and that he heard the mother in the background of the phone conversation, and he became quite suspicious, that he felt that they were looking out for money or up to no good.
So we shall see. Nobody says exactly what`s expected in this case. So I`ve given up predicting exactly what anybody is going to say.
GRACE: Well, I have got my fingers crossed for Larry King to, you know, endure cross-examination. You know, he is kind of shy. He may not say very much. He doesn`t like to talk very much. Hey, take a listen to this.
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BAIN: Michael wasn`t there a lot of the times that the children were sneaking the alcohol. So I mean, it`s like someone coming to your house. You`re not going to be able to look at them 24/7.
You are going to hope that there is some honor system. You`re going to hope that people that you have in your house have integrity and that they know how to act. And what we`re seeing here coming out in court, open court, is that they did not know how to act. There was not a lot of integrity, and they did take advantage of the situation. And that`s unfortunate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Integrity? Art Harris, I have got 20 seconds left. They`re kids. Integrity, are you kidding?
HARRIS: This was Neverland and there were no rules. And you know, the fact that you have someone who is in Michael Jackson`s camp actually raining on their parade in public, I don`t know, Nancy. That`s sort of smacks up against the gag order, doesn`t it?
GRACE: OK, everybody, dig in for Friday, D-Day, Geragos back in court.
Thank you to my Jackson panel.
As we go to break, I want to remind you, we here at NANCY GRACE want very much to help find missing people, solve unsolved homicides. Take a look at Ashley Martinez. She disappeared July 2004, Saint Joseph, Missouri. If you have any information on Ashley, please call Saint Joseph police.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, OF SHERIFFS DEPT. COEUR D`ALENE, IDAHO: About 6:15 last night, we got a call of suspicious circumstances of residence here on Frontage Road. When deputies arrived, they found three deceased people inside the residence. They swept the residence, didn`t find anybody who was injured, needing assistance. They backed out, sealed the place up, contacted investigators. By law, the investigators had to get a search warrant at that point to -- that took until a little after midnight. They`re meeting right now with the state forensic people and, giving a briefing with that team, that investigative team, and will be out here in the next 30, 45 minutes to start the actual investigation at the scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Breaks news out of in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, tonight. An Amber Alert, an 8-year-old and a 9-year-old missing, their entire family wiped out. The family found dead in their home, there in Coeur d`Alene. With us tonight from Kootenai County Sheriff`s office, captain Ben Wolfinger. Also with us, of course, "Beyond Missing`s" Marc Klaas, joining us. Tonight, on the scene, CNN reporter, Sean Callebs. First to Sean.
Sean, bring us update to date, friend.
SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well we can tell you, Nancy, that authorities identified the three victims. Brenda Groene, she is someone, a female estimated to be somewhere in late 30s, early 40s, she has two grown children not involved this. Also, her 13-year-old son, Slade Groene, also a victim of a homicide here, authorities found last night, and Mark McKenzie who is said to be the boyfriend of Brenda Groene. Authorities have no idea how old he is.
But really, Nancy, you hit on the -- one of the serious points of all this, the fact there is the Amber Alert. Authorities, the FBI, authorities from Idaho, authorities from neighboring Washington state, doing what they can, trying to find the 8-year-old child Shasta Groene, she`s about just under 4 feet, very slight, about 40 pounds, and Dylan Groene he is 9 years old, he`s a little heavier, about 60 pounds. There`s Amber Alerts all over the drive here on I-90. We saw three separate highway signs listing the information for those two children and tonight the search is out across the country.
GRACE: I think I have some of those ages. I`ve just gotten them, Sean, the mother, 40-year-old Brenda Groene, the boyfriend Mark McKenzie, age 37, and the age you gave me, 13-year-old Slade Groene. I want to go quickly to Captain Ben Wolfinger.
Sir, what can you tell us about the investigation tonight? You got a whole family, basically, wiped out, two kids missing.
WOLFINGER: Well, the investigators started this morning working in the outside of the residence, right to the road working their way into the residence. Late this afternoon, they went inside the residence to start the processing the scene inside. About 45 minutes, an hour ago, they were able to remove the bodies and take them to the forensic pathologist. The autopsies will be done tomorrow. They`ll be here late into the evening and probably late tomorrow as well processing the inside of the residence.
GRACE: Can you tell us the cause of death?
WOLFINGER: No, we can`t at this point. After the autopsies, tomorrow, we`ll be able to narrow it down. We know it was a traumatic death, there was a good amount of blood in the house, but that`s all we know at this time.
GRACE: Was the house in disarray? Where there signs of a break- in or a robbery?
WOLFINGER: Well, there was no sign of a break will have in, according to the neighbor who called us and reported the suspicious circumstances. But we don`t know about the robbery at this point, that`ll come with the processing of the scene inside.
GRACE: Captain, was there any sign of a sex attack on the victims?
WOLFINGER: I don`t know at this point. That`ll be in the processing at the autopsy and the report that comes from them.
GRACE: Well, that says to me there was no overt sign. In other words, the victims were not unclothed or in posed in unusual positions. I`m gathering from what you`re saying fully clothed and you will only know a sex attack once their bodies have been autopsied. You know, it says to me, back to Sean Callebs, that obviously the same person took the kids that wanted to kill the family. Or kill the family to get the kids. It`s got to be somebody that knows this family.
CALLEBS: Well that`s what -- well, think about it, too. I mean, if this -- this is the home, you can se it behind us, the yellow tape. This is an area that`s pretty far away from the main town, in terms of an area this small. And also, one thing we did find out from the sheriff`s office, 40-year-old Brenda Groene have a history of trouble with drugs, she has been arrested on at least one occasion that we know of. The authorities trying to determine just how many times she has.
GRACE: Whoop, whoop, whoop. Before we start saying the mom has trouble, for all I know, it could be a bounced check. Hey, a lot of people -- including a couple of people on this set can plead guilty to that, tonight. Now, when you say she`s been in trouble, what do you mean by that?
CALLEBS: Well, she`s been arrested for drugs, Nancy.
GRACE: Oh, OK.
CALLEBS: That`s one thing that the captain told me a minute ago. Maybe I didn`t make that terribly clear a moment ago, but that`s what we`re trying to find out. This is a house that`s, as I mentioned, off the beaten path and it is not just some.
GRACE: Oh, man.
CALLEBS: .some random incident, you think, where somebody would go in and kill three people and also two children missing, so really the captain tells us there are two parallel investigations going on this evening, the FBI really focusing on the missing children. If you look around us, this is a very lush area, it simply poured here last night, that`s what the police tell us, so that`s going to make any kind of investigation that much more difficult. We asked what the best set of circumstances could be, and the captain says he hopes that whoever took these children will drop them off somewhere safe and sound and notify authorities and then that, hopefully, is a way they`ll try to find Shasta and Dylan. But you know, Nancy, as time goes on, it`s been 24 hours since authorities first got to this crime scene, the news gets a little more bleak.
GRACE: You know, Marc Klaas, I was going under the theory that this is such a small town, that it had to be somebody that knew the family, but now I know there`s a drug arrest in the background of one of the decedents, that changes the whole picture. For all we -- and this is a rural area, but the house is situated on an access road, you know roads running parallel to the interstate. People, truckers, you name it, going down the interstate, could see this house. So that does take it out of the small town milieu.
MARC KLAAS, "BEYOND MISSING": No, absolutely, there is an interstate near there, but you know, that drug arrest could have been 20 years ago for all we know. So, I don`t think we should push that conclusion. We -- just as in the case of the two children in Zion, Illinois, just a couple of weeks ago, there were two kids involved in this, and it makes it doubly difficult to control two children than one child, so that might lead you one direction. But I think what we have to understand is that the federal government has created an Amber Alert system that is really very problematic and the really created a very cumbersome kind of a bureaucracy. If it weren`t for cable news, I speculate that the word would not have gotten out nearly as quickly as it did on this case or in many other cases that are in confined areas. We`re dealing with Canada, we`re dealing with Montana, Idaho, Oregon, and Washington within a 200-mile radius of this situation. So, what we have to do is get the word out very quickly to everybody as one does, but I think that was more of a victory for the cable news industry than it was for the Amber Alert systems that are set up.
GRACE: Good point, good point, Marc Klaas. And everyone, Marc Klaas has lived through this ordeal himself. He`s not just a victims` rights advocate. He is a crime victim, as you can see, he`s wearing the pin of his daughter, Polly, who was abducted many years ago.
Very quickly, back to Sean Callebs, and captain don`t move a hair, please stay with us.
Sean, any date on that arrest of the mom? That alleged arrest, the drug arrest of the mom? Because, frankly, in my mind, that change it is scenario. If you`re by an interstate, there is a drug issue going on in the family. If there is a killing over drugs, then these two kids were witnesses, but why kill one kid and take the other two, if they were all witnesses?
CALLEBS: You know, I really can want answer those questions. And one thing, in talking to the captain, and we`ve been here talking to him for a while before coming on the air and really doesn`t want to overstate that. We don`t know when the arrest was. The captain has been out here at the crime scene, basically, the past 24 hours. We ask him the questions, just like anybody would. What`s going on here? Why would someone come and kill three people? That`s when I asked, is there a history with drugs? He said, yes, she has some involvement with drugs. Didn`t know any specifics on any date, what she`d been arrested for, anything of -- along those lines.
And really Nancy, one thing else I would like to point out too, the biological father, Steve Groene, last night, authorities spoke at length with him. Steve Groene is said to be terribly distraught and at this point, he is not a suspect, at all. Authorities have no reason to believe that he is involved in this, whatsoever. He has certainly lost a former wife and a 13-year-old son and certainly panicked of both 9-year-old son and 8-year-old daughter are missing this evening.
GRACE: Captain Ben Wolfinger is with us with the Kootenai County Sheriff`s Office. Captain, I`m so glad you said that, because of course, all investigations start with the family and then move out. Because statistically, that`s normally who commits a homicide. Somebody you know, somebody in your family, somebody you work with. How is the scene being processed? Is it done yet, captain?
WOLFINGER: No. And I guess that`s the thing is that we`re really taking our time here; we want to do this right. We brought in the best people we have, here in Idaho, to process this scene. And, we`re going to take our time and just, you know, dot every "I" and cross every "T" to make sure this is all done correctly.
GRACE: Captain, I`m just sick that it started raining because a tiny bit of evidence, a scrap of material, a footprint, even could make all the difference.
WOLFINGER: Absolutely.
GRACE: And with the rain.
WOLFINGER: You`re right, Nancy. It rained here hard last night and we recognize that, but there was just no way to stop the rain or protect the scene. It`s a pretty wide open area right here, you know. Fortunately, though, all three bodies were found in the residence, all that crime scene was protected. Once the initial officers on the scene swept the residence and made sure there was no one inside who needed help, they just backed out, sealed the place up, and waited for investigators to get here and begin this processing.
GRACE: Captain, I`ve got a lot more questions for you and I don`t want to jeopardize your investigation, but this is such an upsetting story. Elizabeth, let`s go out with a shot of the boy and the girl.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CAPT. ROCKY WATSON, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: We don`t have any leads of abductions or directions of travel or people of interest, so we`re just doing everything we can. We`re starting the search around the house and we use cadaver dogs around the house and tracking dogs in surrounding the area and at the same time we`re doing the Amber Alert instead of starting small and working out, we`re just doing everything we can early because time is the essence with children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Well, truer words were never spoken. Time is of the essence. An 8-year-old, a 9-year-old missing, tonight. Here they are. Their family, basically, wiped out, murdered in their Idaho home. And it`s a small town, but it`s -- the home was situated near an access road, easily seen off the interstate.
To psychoanalyst, Bethany Marshall.
Bethany, why would, just common sense, why would somebody kill the three people including a 13-year-old child and abduct the other two children if the children were not the target?
MARSHALL: Right. Well, this is an extremely rare situation. Only one half of one percent of all homicides involve three family members. And usually when there`s so many family members, it`s someone within the family that perpetrates the crime, but that`s ruled out in this case, so I think there`s one of two possibilities. One is that there was somebody who was on a mission to punish the family or retaliate in some way, but the second, and I think the more terrible possibility for these two children is that this could have been a sexual sadist and that he thought nothing of getting rid of the family members so that he could have access to the children and now he`s in a state of sexual frenzy and agitation and that the children are at great risk.
GRACE: To Bruce Koffsky. What should be a focus -- what should be the focus of the crime scene investigation?
KOFFSKY: I think the crime scene investigation should look at all the forensics. They`re going to sweep the carpets; they`re going to sweep the wall for blood splatter. They`re going to look on the ground for footprints, tire tracks. I mean, this could easily have been somebody driving off the interstate, a crime of opportunity, grabbing the children, taking them as hostages, making sure he had enough in the way of hostage.
GRACE: A crime of opportunity?
KOFFSKY: Absolutely.
GRACE: Now, that`s a good theory in my mind for a movie, but Richard Herman, crime of opportunity? How convenient is it to go wipe out a family, a man, a woman and a 13-year-old boy and kidnap two kids? That doesn`t sound like much of an opportunity.
HERMAN: No, it doesn`t. I think this is some sort of revenge factor here like it was just discussed previously and this person is absolutely snapped. I mean, to kill, slaughter three people like that and take the little kids, I just hope they find the kids, because...
GRACE: As you see, two veteran criminal defense attorneys disagree, Richard Herman and Bruce Koffsky have both handled homicide cases. To the Captain Ben Wolfinger. Captain, I -- that sounds to elaborate to me. Oh sorry, guys, we`ve lost him (INAUDIBLE) we`ll go back to him.
Do we have Sean, Elizabeth?
OK. We`ll get right -- hooked right back up to the satellite in just a moment. I`ll go to Marc Klaas.
Marc, it just seems like such a fantastical scenario, that people are killed over revenge. Isn`t that mostly in the movies?
KLAAS: No. I think it happens all the time. You know, in January of nine -- January of `04, in Ranger, Georgia, Jerry Jones committed a quadruple murder and then kidnapped three little girls and then drove around, apparently aimlessly for the next 24 hours.
GRACE: Right. What year was that?
KLAAS: That was last year.
GRACE: OK.
KLAAS: Last January.
GRACE: Yep.
KLAAS: And in fact, those children were ultimately recovered, but it was the same kind of a situation where you had a -- over a multistate Amber Alert that wasn`t effectively responded to by anybody other than the cable news networks, so...
GRACE: Well, you know what? I`m just not buying into this revenge, you kill three people over revenge. Take a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WATSON: Our main concern right now, are the two children we cannot find. We`re do -- we`ve got search dogs and the search and rescue teams working immediate area. Surrounding law enforcement agencies are notified Amber Alert trying to find out where the children are or what happens to them.
We don`t have any leads of abductions or directions of travel or people of interest, so we`re just doing everything we can. We`re starting the search around the house and we use cadaver dogs around the house and tracking dogs in the surrounding area and at the same time we`re doing the Amber Alert instead of starting small and working out, we`re just doing everything we can early because time is the essence with children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Captain Ben Wolfinger, we`ve got our satellite connection back. All these stories about revenge killings and drug killings, in my practice of felony crimes, that has been few and far between. It`s never really that elaborate.
WOLFINGER: Well, I guess I don`t follow your question, Grace.
GRACE: Well, people are wondering the possible motivation to wipe out an entire family and take these two kids.
WOLFINGER: Well, I guess that`s a question we`re certainly asking, our investigators are certainly asking here, but and hopefully more will come as we process the evidence and learn who is responsible for this crime.
GRACE: Guys, don`t move, we`re going to be right back with the Captain Ben Wolfinger and Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent, there in Idaho. Let`s quickly go to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin."
FBI and law enforcement across the nation are on the lookout for this man: Jimmy Polite. Wanted by the FBI in connection with the 1996 rape of a Mississippi girl. He`s 48, 6` 5", black hair, brown eyes. Any info call the FBI at 601-948-5000. Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back. And remember live coverage of the Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on "Court TV."
Please stay with us as we remember an American hero.
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GRACE: Shasta Groene is just 8 years old, she`s only 3` 10" tall. Her brother, Dylan Groene, 9 years old, 4`, 60 pounds. They`re missing tonight out of Idaho. Please take a look. Nearly their entire family has been wiped out. The family found in the home, the two kids missing. Let me go straight back to CNN correspondent, there on the scene, Sean Callebs with us.
Sean, describe the area for me.
CALLEBS: Yeah. This -- Coeur d`Alene is really something that`s made the transition from a logging and mining area into a tourist area over the past 15 years. It`s a town of about 40,000 in the summer; it swells to more than 100,000. A lot of transients, in the sense that a lot of people come in for a short time, enjoy these woods then move on.
And one other interesting point, Nancy, a lot of law enforcement retire to this area. The captain says there are legions of cops and sheriff`s officers who have retired to this area and he say those are people who are curious by nature. So, if they notice something out of the norm, they`re going to check it out, they`re going to ask questions and they`re also going to call the local sheriff`s office and try and point them in any kind of direction and the sheriff says that`s been a big help in the past and certainly, they hope it is going to be a big help again.
GRACE: And to Captain Wolfinger, you know, every hour counts. If those kids are in a car right now, every hour is another 75 miles away or so. Are your people working the scene around the clock, captain?
WOLFINGER: Yes, they are. They`ve been here since late last -- yesterday afternoon, early evening, and they`ll continue to work this scene. We`ve got a tip line set up now, in our office, so people can call right in. I think you`ve got that number and anyone who sees...
GRACE: Oh, what is it? What is it?
WOLFINGER: It`s area code 208-446-2922.
GRACE: Two, nine, two, two. And captain, you have brought in the cadaver dogs and there`s no response, right?
WOLFINGER: No response. We brought cadaver dogs and tracking dogs in this morning, as well as a helicopter to search the area around the residence, the 40 or 50 acres around this residence. A lot of brush, lot of tall grass it`s kind of marshy in the area and so we wanted to bring the dogs right -- in as soon as possible, as well as the helicopter. See if we can find anything in the area of the residence.
GRACE: Well, even the rain wouldn`t stop a cadaver dog, and that the high point for me is that they haven`t hit on anything around the home. Thank you to all of my guests.
My biggest thank you to you for being with us again tonight, inviting us into your home. Coming up, "Headlines Around the World." Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. See you tomorrow. Good night, friend.
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