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Nancy Grace

Nancy Grace for May 18, 2005, CNNHN

Aired May 18, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the Idaho triple murder and Amber Alert. Tonight 33-year-old Rob Roy Lutner wanted for police questioning, and as of tonight, is named as a person of interest. Tonight, the hunt still on for the two missing kids, ages 8 and 9, their family found bound and murdered in their own home.
And it`s day 55 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

We go live to California, day 55 -- 55 -- in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. A 12-year-old boy, a cousin of Michael Jackson, used by the defense under oath today.

But first, breaking news. There is a person of interest in the Idaho triple homicide and Amber Alert. Robert Roy Lutner has been located. Police found the victims bound and murdered, but tonight, still missing, 8- year-old Shasta and her 9-year-old brother, Dylan Groene, missing from the same house. Their mother found brutally murdered, along with her 13-year- old son and the mom`s boyfriend.

With us, Kootenai County Sheriff Rocky Watson; defense attorney Debra Opri in L.A.; defense attorney Dino Lombardi in New York; psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders.

But first, let`s all go out to CNN correspondent Sean Callebs. He is there in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. Welcome, Sean. Bring us up-to-date.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, we can tell you it was about a couple of hours ago when we learned that Robert Roy Lutner had been apprehended by authorities. He actually called and turned himself in. At the time, authorities didn`t say or won`t say where Lutner was. But apparently, he was very close, because it only took about an hour for sheriff`s officials, FBI and other investigators to reach him.

We know that there`s an interrogation going on now. We don`t know what Lutner is saying, if anything. Certainly, this is someone that the authorities have called a "person of interest," Nancy. That`s significant, because they are not calling him a suspect.

Perhaps the most significant of all of this, they believe that he was at this modest home where the crime took place as late as Sunday, perhaps the same timeframe the crime was going on. So perhaps this is someone who can shed some light on to what happened, the brutal murders you talked about.

GRACE: Also with us is Kootenai County sheriff, Sheriff Rocky Watson.

Sheriff, thank you for being with us tonight. Now, I`m hearing that this person of interest was there in the home, and our reporter has just told us around the time of the murders. Now, can`t the autopsies tell us when the murders occurred?

ROCKY WATSON, SHERIFF INVESTIGATING CASE: They will pin down the time very close for us. And we expect those autopsies to be done today. But because of the volume of three, we`re not sure it will be completed today.

GRACE: What can you tell me about Lutner, this person of interest?

WATSON: He was a local person. He is known to the sheriff`s office, but on not any major issues, I believe possession of marijuana, drunk driving, some misdemeanor charges. He is the last known person we know to have been at the residence before the bodies were discovered.

We`re glad we found him or he turned himself in. We`re anxious to find out what those interviews produce.

GRACE: So he is a local resident?

WATSON: Yes, he is. He lives in Hayden Lake, a small community about eight miles north of us.

GRACE: Have you searched his home and his car, or is this just an instance of questioning right now?

WATSON: No, this is just an interview with him right now.

GRACE: Now, my question to you is, can you nail down the time he was at the home? And why was he there?

WATSON: A semi was going by. Could you say that again?

GRACE: Yes, why was he in the home and what time was he there?

WATSON: He`s apparently a friend of the family, frequents the home. And he was there sometime Sunday afternoon. And that`s the closest time we can pin down right now.

GRACE: Let me go back to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent. Do we know how Lutner was located? I know he turned himself in. Has he actually gone to the police station?

CALLEBS: Lutner called and told authorities where he was. Now, at the time, the sheriff`s office wouldn`t tell us where it was, if it was in this area outside. But we know, within an hour, the investigators did reach Lutner.

We don`t know exactly where he is or what kind of information he is providing, but he is someone who called and then the authorities went to him. That is our understanding. There had been an APB out, all kinds of information about the old pickup truck that he was apparently driving, either a `75 Ford or a 1990 Toyota pickup truck. Apparently, the last truck he was seen driving was that `75.

GRACE: OK. We`re going to be right back with CNN reporter Sean Callebs.

But right, straight back to Sheriff Rocky Watson. Sheriff, about this Robert Lutner. What else can you tell us about him? I think I`ve got the sheriff with me. Sheriff, can you hear me? OK.

WATSON: Yes, I can.

GRACE: Sheriff, what else can you tell me about Robert Lutner? Is he married? Does he have a family? Does he have a job?

WATSON: He is employed locally. I don`t believe he`s married, but that -- I`m sorry, I don`t have that exact -- I don`t have that information for you.

GRACE: We`re going to be right back with the sheriff. We`re going to get that hearing problem cleared up.

Very quickly to Dino Lombardi, joining us tonight, veteran defense attorney. Dino, it will certainly make a big impression on the police that this guy turned himself in.

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, very much so. And if I`m hearing the sheriff correctly, I don`t think he had gone very far. Certainly, nothing in what was reported as his minor encounters with the police seem to have anything to do with his family or with crimes of violence.

So, just like the sheriff, I think we`re all sitting here and waiting to see what emerges from these interviews. But to go out on a limb a little bit, he doesn`t seem like a suspect.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF DEPARTMENT: We want to search every nook and cranny. You know, we were all kids once. We understand how kids, you know, have little forts or favorite places out in the woods near their home, things like that. We`re looking for those places. We`re checking every possible angle out. We`re going to leave no stone unturned in this thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And to Debra Opri, also a veteran defense attorney. Debra, if they are not searching his home, searching his car, he doesn`t sound like a suspect to me, either.

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Yes.

GRACE: If they really believe this guy was involved, they would be looking in the car, in the home for any traces of blood, traces of these two missing kids.

OPRI: Absolutely, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes.

OPRI: What I think is he`s going to help with the timeline, when they might have disappeared. I`m going to go out on a limb here and say I smell a drug-related crime. These people were bound, gagged, and, from what I understand, brutally tortured and beaten.

So I think, if these kids were taken, it may be reminiscent of drug crimes where they`re hostages at this point in time. And that`s what I think. I think that Lutner will be able to lend some credence as to a timeline, and perhaps he may know some individuals.

GRACE: Well, Debra, that was our speculation last night, because I know the mom has a drug arrest.

OPRI: Yes.

GRACE: For all I know, that could have been some marijuana when she was in high school, for Pete`s sake. Now this guy has a drug issue.

And this is what impresses me even more, the fact that the family was bound. That does not sound like somebody going off in a fit of anger, like a crazy relative or anything.

OPRI: No, no.

GRACE: And this house, Debra, is located right...

OPRI: Interrogation.

GRACE: ... beside the interstate, people passing on I-90 all the time. They`re on an access road. That removes it from the small town (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that we had thought it was in.

OPRI: No, I`ll tell you what I think. This is very reminiscent to me of the kidnapping, and binding, and torture of what had happened with the Jesse James Hollywood killings in Santa Barbara county some years ago. If this is a drug-related crime, we`ll know soon enough what`s going on.

I would suspect at this point in time the questioning of Lutner may, in fact, give a timeline. And there has to be some DNA evidence, some connection to something. And I think they should round up all the connections she had to the drug people.

I don`t think it was just marijuana. I think, in fact -- and I may be wrong -- that it might have been methamphetamine possession.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSE GROENE, SON OF SLAIN WOMAN: I wish I had had a suspicion or I wish I knew who it was, you know? I cannot place it, who would do a thing like this. This is just tragedy, you know? I can`t think of anybody who was twisted, and evil, and lunatic enough to do this, you know?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the son of the slain woman in this case.

And tonight, Elizabeth, can you show us the shots of Dylan and Shasta please? These two kids still missing, no trace of an 8-year-old and a 9- year-old.

To Dr. Patricia Saunders, what`s your take on this as of tonight, Doctor?

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree that it looks like it`s drug-related...

GRACE: Why?

SAUNDERS: ... that it`s revenge. Well, what you said about it being bound. Mom does have a more extensive drug history than...

GRACE: It`s paraphernalia. You know what that is? That could be a roach clip, for all I know. Paraphernalia.

SAUNDERS: There was a report -- and I don`t know if it`s true -- that she was ordered by a judge to a substance abuse treatment program. And she had trouble going.

GRACE: She`s a user. Why would that entail a drug hit? This is not the mafia, OK?

SAUNDERS: Drug users buy from people. And if they don`t make good on it, they can get into really serious trouble.

GRACE: Well, serious trouble like breaking your knees, but if you kill the person that owes you money, you`re not going to get your next payment.

SAUNDERS: But if you`re a dealer who is on meth and totally out of your mind, you`re going to lose it.

GRACE: You know what? Dino Lombardi, before we go to break, Patricia Saunders and Debra Opri brought up an important point. There`s a big difference -- and you know it, Dino -- in a meth issue and a pot issue. If we`re talking about methamphetamines being at the heart of this drug issue, that`s a lot more prone to violence than somebody that has a pot problem.

LOMBARDI: Absolutely right, that there isn`t the kind, whether for cultural reasons or monetary reasons, we have seen violence and the use and threat of violence surround hard drugs, meth. There`s a lot more money involved and willingness to use violence to protect one`s interest.

GRACE: And also, what it does to you -- what methamphetamine does to you, physically, you get crazy. You have a joint, people sit back and watch TV for twelve hours.

LOMBARDI: Right. Exactly. Exactly.

GRACE: With meth, they break into a liquor store and kill everybody.

LOMBARDI: Right. And it might even be -- and even dealers are users sometimes, too. So it may be a mixed kind of situation like that. But I want to -- let`s have everybody pull back just a little bit. And I applaud you, Nancy for...

GRACE: Pull back? There`s two kids missing. Pull back? What are you talking about?

LOMBARDI: No, no, no, I mean in speculating about this mother`s situation. And I applaud you, Nancy for pointing out we don`t know that this poor, dead woman...

GRACE: Oh, god, I know I`m in trouble now. Dino Lombardi is applauding me. You know what? I`m not even going to let you finish that sentence.

Quick break, everybody. Tonight, an 8-year-old and a 9-year-old still missing. There`s been a triple homicide in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. These two kids still missing, taken from the home. The mom, the 13-year-old brother, the boyfriend bound and murdered. We`ll go straight back out to Coeur d`Alene when we get back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s always been the media that have given us the lead that broke the case or broke the story for us. And we`re counting on somebody out there knowing something about the family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reality is, investigators have no suspects at this time, and three bodies, and a question unanswered: Why?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN MESSERLY, NEIGHBOR: I came over last night, and I knocked on the door. When I pulled up, Mark`s truck was there. Yes, and I knocked on the door. There was blood on the door. I didn`t think to notice. I just didn`t. Because yes, Mark`s a hunter, and I didn`t think nothing of it. I should have went in the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. There has been a triple homicide, the family bound and murdered in the home, blood everywhere. Two children tonight still missing, 8 years old, 9 years old.

Let`s go straight out to CNN correspondent Sean Callebs. Sean, let`s nail down the timeline. Now, nobody realized the kids were missing until about six hours later. How did that happen?

CALLEBS: Nancy, I think that is a very important point that we`re going to continue to hammer away as this investigation goes on. Apparently, an individual came to the house. He was going to pay the 13- year-old son for cutting his lawn. At that time, noticed something is wrong. That is when authorities were called.

They arrived here Monday evening local time around 6:00 p.m. For three people in the house who had been murdered, no one to tell authorities that there were two children missing. It wasn`t until they identified the victims, they were able to talk to next of kin that they realized there were two children unaccounted for.

That is when the word went out, things began moving quickly. And the following morning, the Amber Alert went out, which, of course has spawned so many calls into this area.

But really, we were talking to the sheriff a short while ago. And he said that that time period, you can`t overstate how important it is. Look, the first two hours after a child has been abducted usually yields the most information. If you think about it, six hours from where we are in Idaho, somebody could have driven all the way from Seattle. And from there, who knows where they could have gone?

GRACE: Now, you said a neighbor came to the door to pay the 13-year- old, who was murdered, for doing some work for him, saw something unusual. You`re darn right. Wasn`t it blood on the door to the home?

CALLEBS: Well, that`s something we`ll have to ask the sheriff about. I don`t think that the individual actually went into the house. I just think that...

GRACE: The door, the doorknob.

CALLEBS: ... he had indications something was wrong.

GRACE: The doorknob. Look, you know what? Good point.

Let`s go to Sheriff Rocky Watson. What alarmed the neighbor? What made the neighbor think something was amiss?

WATSON: More that just nobody answered the door, and the house was dark. And he knew they should have been home. And he called us for a welfare check to go out and check. And that`s when we checked and found -- when we entered the house to find the three bodies.

GRACE: Back to Sean Callebs. The wife of the neighbor told our show that blood was spotted, and it alarmed the neighbor, naturally. But you`re telling me, at that point already, about six hours were lost.

Now, let me ask you this. After that, it rained heavily in the area. Are they still looking for clues around the house? Have they called in cadaver dogs yet again?

CALLEBS: Yes, without question. There`s been a great deal of activity around here.

Firstly, you`re exactly right. The integrity of the crime scene outside the home certainly suffered. It simply poured here for about 12 hours. And think about it. They were looking for a very specific truck for that person of interest.

So if they`re going to use that crime scene, try and see if there were any kind of tire tracks made by a truck or if there were footprints, somebody was heavy, were there two people, were there three people? That`s the kind of information they would have been able to gather. But once the rain came down, the driveway is dirt. It certainly had an adverse effect on that area.

Secondly, there are both cadaver and rescue dogs that have working these hills out here. If you look behind us, it`s very thick undergrowth. The brush is very thick. Authorities have actually been going out with sticks in some areas.

There are horses, Nancy, that are actually going up into the mountains this evening. And the sheriff just told me that tomorrow they`re going to put divers in some of the water around here, see if they can determine if any of the lakes, streams or small rivers -- see if there`s anything in there that leads them to believe that perhaps the children could have ended up there.

GRACE: Yes. Well, the reality is, to me, that wouldn`t make any sense. Of course, they`ve got to look in those areas, because why would you wipe out the family, bound and murdered in the home, then take two kids away, and murder them, and dispose of their bodies separately?

Of course, you know, truth is stranger than fiction. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: We don`t know if he`s involved in the crime. But we know he was here Sunday evening. That`s the last timeframe we can put everybody here at the house last alive.

So he`s a person of interest. He may have seen something. He may have known someone else was here at the residence. He may have met somebody as he was leaving the residence, as he was leaving, they may have been coming in. That`s the kind of information we hope to glean from him.

ROB HOLLINGSWORTH, NEIGHBOR WHO CALLED POLICE: I had had Slade do some work for me the day before. He mowed the grass along my fence. And I owed him $10. And I didn`t have the change.

So I got the change and came back the next day to pay him. And of course, when I knocked on the door, and no one came to the door -- it was pitch black in there, and the dogs were barking -- but both vehicles were there. And so that`s when I got suspicious. And one door of the car was open, and it just looked suspicious. So I called the sheriff`s department at that point.

QUESTION: Did you have any idea that...

HOLLINGSWORTH: No, but I had a real bad feeling. Because always, some kid or the dog or something comes out of there, you know?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: One door to the car was open. Back to Sheriff Rocky Watson with the Kootenai County sheriff`s office. I understand that forensic experts from Spokane are there. Are you trying to retrieve fingerprints from the bodies?

WATSON: They`re not missing any of the opportunities. The Idaho state police has got both their crime lab teams here. And they`re going through the body -- or they`re going through the house very meticulously for all the blood samples, DNAs, any evidence in the house. And then there`s another team working with the coroner at the autopsy for any signs of evidence left on the bodies.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll be right back in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho.

But first, to "Trial Tracking": The middle school reading teacher, Debra LaFave, accused of having sex with a 14-year-old student wants to cut a deal. Prosecutor`s say LaFave`s psychiatric evaluation is in.

Now, her lawyer promised he would use the insanity defense if he couldn`t get a deal. Now, if she`s convicted, LaFave faces 15 years behind bars and a lifetime labeled as a sex predator.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN FITZGIBBONS, ATTY. FOR TEACHER ACCUSED OF HAVING SEX WITH STUDENT: I still believe that there`s probably not going to be any doctors in this case who are going to disagree with each other that Debbie is ill, and has had some very profound emotional and mental issues over the years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MESSERLY: I came over last night, and I knocked on the door. When I pulled up, Mark`s truck was there. Yes, and I knocked on the door. There was blood on the door. I didn`t think to notice. I just didn`t. Because yes, Mark`s a hunter, and I didn`t think nothing of it. I should have went in the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Valuable time lost, at least six hours. Two children missing tonight, ages 8 and 9. Three family members dead, the mom, the boyfriend, and the 13-year-old brother.

Very quickly, let`s go straight out to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent. When do you expect the autopsies to be completed? Let me just tell you, it is very difficult, Sean, to get fingerprints off a body. That`s hard.

CALLEBS: Well, I`m sure it is. I`m not a forensics expert. But I can tell you, the FBI is here. They`ve been working very closely with the sheriff`s office, as you mentioned, law enforcement officers from Washington State. Information has gone all the way up into Canada.

We understand that two of these autopsies are expected to be completed today, the third tomorrow. At that time, Nancy, we perhaps will know the exact cause of death. All we know is it is very brutal, as you mentioned, blood in the room, and the victims were bound.

GRACE: So Sean, we don`t know if they were stabbed or shot? I doubt they were asphyxiated, strangled, because there was so much blood. There was even blood, as the neighbor just said, on the doorknob, Sean.

CALLEBS: Yes, very difficult to say. Anything would be pure speculation. The authorities have been very tight-lipped about that, certainly wanting to control any information that gets out, because, as you know, these hours are very crucial, trying to determine exactly what happened and who was involved.

And they`re really behind the eight ball at this point, because events out of their control. First, not finding out that the children were missing for six hours. And then, simply, the weather, how it affected the outside scene, the outside crime scene.

GRACE: Sean, I`ve only got 30 seconds left to break. What can you tell me about Mark McKenzie?

CALLEBS: Mark McKenzie, the boyfriend, apparently had a couple of arrests for misdemeanors, no serious involvement in any kind of trouble, any kind of drugs. Someone who had been seeing Brenda Groene for some time.

GRACE: Got you.

CALLEBS: But that`s really about all the information that we have.

GRACE: I`ll be right back with you, Sean. We are live in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, OF SHERIFFS DEPT. COEUR D`ALENE, IDAHO: We know this is a triple homicide, because all three victims were bound. And that`s new information, I know, for you guys. That`s important to us as far as processing this crime scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back, let`s go straight out to Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. Standing by, Sheriff Rocky Watson, the Kootenai County sheriff.

Sheriff, has a murder weapon been recovered?

ROCKY WATSON, SHERIFF KOOTENAI COUNTY: We have not determined the cause of death yet. That won`t be done until we have the results of the autopsy. So, no, there have been no murder weapons recovered.

GRACE: There`s been a lot of discussion, tonight, that these murders were drug related. What do you think, sheriff?

WATSON: When I toured the crime scene I saw no drugs, no paraphernalia, no apparatus, so I`ve got nothing to support that.

GRACE: OK. Has the ex-husband of Brenda Groene been eliminated as a suspect?

WATSON: I don`t know the detectives -- the detectives excluded him early in the process. I didn`t ask, there was enough going on. We`ve really have been directing our energies, my energies towards the search of the children.

GRACE: Yeah.

WATSON: And the Amber Alert and finding those kids.

GRACE: Right. That was my question, if he had been excluded and I hear you say he has been. The ex-husband has been excluded. Is the family cooperating with this investigation?

WATSON: Yes.

GRACE: Is your agency getting help tonight from other agencies and who?

WATSON: We`re getting help from everybody. The Idaho, or the FBI has given us their objective Abused Child Unit and they`re working on the missing children aspect. There`s a national group on an abducted and abused children that have helped here with their resources and they`re working in the emergency operations that are helping screen the tips that are coming in and directing those. Our neighboring counties and cities in Spokane, Washington, have got their teams over here. Idaho State Police is here, Coeur d`Alene city, there is not anybody that`s not -- everybody`s offered help and we`ve taken them up and we`ve all paired off in teams. They`re all pursuing different leads and different aspects of it. Then they re-group a different couple times a day and debrief and redirect and go out again.

GRACE: Sheriff, you guys are working around the clock, aren`t you?

WATSON: Yes, we are.

GRACE: Let`s go to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent. A lot of speculation about possibly being a drug-related murder, any ideas from the crime scene itself, Sean?

CALLEBS: Well, I think we heard the sheriff say when he went in there, no drugs, no paraphernalia, but there are some things about this area you should know. This is an area where crystal meth is a big problem. It`s rural area, it`s very use easy to cook it out here. It`s cheaper than cocaine, it gives those who are interested a greater high, and it certainly has caused a certain degree of people in this area to wind up in the county jail, about 30 percent of those in the jail, there, for drug charges. But, the sheriff told me a short while ago, he believes that about 70, about three out of four people in the jail do use drugs regularly.

GRACE: Well you know, Sean, that changes the fact it is possibly drug related and that that drug is crystal meth, changes the whole scenario. Listen, you don`t have a lot of shootouts over a joint, but when you`re talking about crystal meth, that`s a completely different ball game, Sean.

CALLEBS: Well, without question. I think that one thing that the authorities are doing, and perhaps they`re not openly saying it, they`re trying to find a motive for all of this. What would it -- what caused somebody to go in, tie these three people up, brutally kill them, and apparently take the two children? That`s going to be the big question. We know that the mother, Brenda Groene, had a history of drug arrest. A lot of them were pleaded down to misdemeanors. Don`t know anything about the boyfriend, any serious drug involvement, whatsoever. But also, the person of interest, that we talked about, this is somebody too, who dabbled in drugs, so they are certainly skirting this on the fringe. Whether this all come back and be connected in some way, that`s what we`re going to have to find out.

GRACE: Yeah, interesting point, Sean Callebs, that we already know of three people involved who have a drug past. I mean, there`s no way to get around that. Very quickly to Debra Opri.

Why are you insistent that this is drug related?

DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the as a criminal defense attorney, you always look to the region and the area and the environment. First of all, tell me who you go with, I`ll tell you what you are. This is a crystal methamphetamine area and it just doesn`t seem to be a random act of violence, though it may be. Blood on the door is a key here. Bounding -- binding these people, killing them, and two missing children? It has every topnotch element, here, that these kids were taken for a reason: A message.

GRACE: Dr. Patricia Saunders is with us, psychotherapist.

Do you think this could be a random murder?

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Not likely, Nancy.

GRACE: I don`t either.

SAUNDERS: And as you know, only about 14 percent of all homicides are a stranger or random.

GRACE: No, the fact that they were bound speaks a lot to me, because that took some planning, that took some foresight and they had to be bound before they were shot.

Dino Lombardi, let`s talk about the crime scene. There`s no need, obviously, to bind someone after the shooting. So, these people were contained, bound, and then murdered. Why? And why were the two kids not taken? I want to go back quickly to the theory of getting fingerprints off a body. Thoughts?

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s very difficult to get fingerprints off a body or off of clothing. If somebody is a very heavily secretor from their fingertip, that would make it more likely to get a useable print from a body, but...

GRACE: Have you ever seen it done? Have you ever seen it done except on TV? Be honest.

LOMBARDI: Honestly, I have -- I have read a reported decision that I`m thinking of right now where it was, and there was a lot of contest in the litigation about...

GRACE: I didn`t ask you, had you read about it in a book.

LOMBARDI: Seen it, no. Experienced it, no.

GRACE: You know what? I have tried, I have to have crime labs, to have autopsies lift prints off bodies.

LOMBARDI: Right.

GRACE: I`ve tried it many, many times and it`s never worked. Here`s the exception. This is a very bloody crime scene, Dino.

LOMBARDI: Right.

GRACE: And with that, maybe you can get a fingerprint.

LOMBARDI: Maybe you`ll get a fingerprint in the blood, hopefully, is going to yield something because, obviously, the first thing they`re going to do is try to see whether the blood belongs to any of the victims. If they have blood at the scene that does not belong to a victim and they catch somebody and there`s a link, you`ve got your murder.

GRACE: And very quickly, back to Sean Callebs, reports are circulating that blood on the porch or on the doorknob on the outside do not -- does not belong to the three victims. True? Not true?

CALLEBS: Simply don`t know the answer, Nancy. I wish I did, because that certainly is something very important. And real quickly, I also want to point out, while we`re talking about the victims bound and then shot, the sheriff was over here shaking his head. No one has said they were shot. We don`t know a cause of death yet. Just want to point that out.

GRACE: OK, but you know what? You`re right about that, sheriff. We don`t know shot or stabbed. We know not asphyxiated because of the degree of blood. But in any event, the theory is still true. You would not bind someone after they were murdered. So, these people were clearly bound and killed. And that is not a random killing. It simply is not a random killing -- Sheriff.

WATSON: This is not a random killing. Somebody came here with a mission.

GRACE: And, one last thing, Sheriff, I know you`re busy. I know you got to get back to work, but the Amber Alert is still in effect tonight. What does that encompass?

WATSON: That is -- it has now turned into a nationwide Amber Alert, because of the time element. They now have the ability to be in several states away from us. And we need to find these children. I need to believe these children are still alive.

GRACE: Do you? Do you think that, Sheriff? Is that your gut instinct tonight, that they are still alive?

WATSON: I need to believe they`re still alive. Why would you wipe out an entire family of five and carry off two bodies?

GRACE: That`s my thinking, too, Sheriff, but, you know what? I don`t know if I believe it in my mind or if I want to believe it in my heart. Sheriff Rocky Watson with us, Kootenai County sheriff, there in Coeur d`Alene. Sir, I`ll let you get back to work.

Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent, thank you, friend.

Everyone, we`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live in Santa Maria. Oh, yes. The Michael Jackson case is still raging. Let`s go straight out to "Celebrity Justice`s" Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, what went down in court today?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, I have to tell you, Nancy, graphic testimony by Michael Jackson`s 12-year-old cousin. But what everybody is buzzing about, right now, is that the defense could be nearing the end of its case. You may recall, back when they first announced their witness list, there were more than 250 names on it. People just about keeled over. Well today, in court, the defense announced they have dramatically paired down that list implying they could be wrapping up in a couple of weeks. Operative word, "could." Nothing is set in stone. As for Michael Jackson`s cousin, he said he saw the accuser and his brother masturbating while they were watching naked ladies on television. Now, this could hurt the prosecution`s case, because the accuser testified,

GRACE: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As you know...

GRACE: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: During the prosecution...

GRACE: Jane... VELEZ-MITCHELL: Case...

GRACE: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That Michael Jackson taught him how to masturbate.

GRACE: Jane, you just had to keep going, didn`t you? I tried to stop you. You just kept on -- Jane, is the jury just like frozen with disgust? How much more do they have to hear about masturbation?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The ick factor is definitely alive and well in this case. I have to tell you, to see a very young, very handsome 12-year-old boy take the stand and he looked at one point like he was near tears. I mean, this has to be traumatic on him to have to get up and talk about this very, very graphic stuff in front of a room full of adults, so I felt very sympathetic to him. And his testimony was, indeed, very disturbing.

GRACE: To Anne Bremner, high-profile Seattle lawyer. She`s been in the courtroom from the get-go.

Anne Bremner, I find it very difficult to believe that little boys, for instance, would come into your home and suddenly go throw back a bottle of wine, masturbate in plain view, and flick on the porn station. Now, what does this say to you about the environment in Neverland?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, Michael Jackson leads by example, Nancy, and it`s not a good example. Neverland is a place of pornography -- a lot of pornography, booze, and carnival rides. That`s the atmosphere at Neverland. And they`re simply imitating Michael Jackson and doing what he does. And this helps the prosecution, I think, tremendously. If he didn`t mention, didn`t want to talk about that, well, I don`t think that makes him not a credible witness, the accuser. It is what it is. It`s a netherworld at Neverland. It`s not a pretty sight.

GRACE: Debra Opri is the Jackson family attorney. Debra, what do you make of the testimony today, putting up this kid, a 12-year-old kid to defend Jackson?

OPRI: Well first, you know, Ann`s terrific, I`ve known her a long time, but you`re dead wrong. You sound like the prosecutor, today. First of all, none of his testimony has hurt Michael Jackson. He got up, he`s a very young kid, he said basically to delineate what the accuser said, he taught us how to masturbate. These kids, he said, knew already what was going on and they made me sick. So, I went to uncle -- to my cousin, Michael`s room, and I stayed with him. The only thing that I would say...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. In the same bed?

OPRI: It doesn`t matter. That`s not the crime charged, you know. He was there today to chip away at what? The accuser saying Michael Jackson taught us how to masturbate. That was the issue. The issue was, no, they lied to you, jury. It was them who were going all at it. It was them who were getting the alcohol. It was them who were out of control. And I know. I shared my room with them and they made me so sick, I went back to Michael`s rom where I slept peacefully. That`s what purpose he served today.

GRACE: Dr. Saunders?

SAUNDERS: If it wasn`t so serious, I`d almost laugh because the whole defense seems to be organized around these evil children have corrupted and taken advantage of poor Michael Jackson. Normal children don`t behave this way in a normal house. Children respond to the environment, as everybody has been saying. And they don`t normally masturbate and drink alcohol unless they`ve been given full license.

GRACE: And find the porn channel. Dino Lombardi, you know that on Jackson`s satellite TV, or whatever he`s got, there`s got to be 300, 400 channels. Now how do these kids walk in and suddenly, like, hone in on the porn channel as they drank from a bottle of wine?

LOMBARDI: Well, gee.

GRACE: They had to learn it somewhere, dino.

LOMBARDI: Gee, yeah, and they learned it, as far as we know, they learned it because they have had bad parenting. I can`t believe what I`m hearing from Anne bremner or Dr. Saunders, with all due respect. Kids know how to navigate their way around computers and televisions better than adults, there`s no allegations that Michael Jackson was anywhere near while this was going on. It`s absolute nonsense...

GRACE: Well, how do they know how to navigate Neverland? How did they know where the wine cellar was? How did they know how to find the porn channel?

LOMBARDI: Because they were left -- they were left to go exploring on their own. If Jackson is guilty of anything, with regard to that, he`s letting them run roughshod across his estate, but it has nothing to do, whatsoever, with any of the charges in this case, whether they were to lead by example. Anne Bremner really should do a gut check on those kind of comments as a defense attorney. Absolute nonsense...

GRACE: Well hold on. Let`s not have the pot call the kettle black tonight.

Absolute nonsense.

GRACE: Very quickly to Art Harris, an investigative reporter. Let`s switch gears quickly. I know most of the panel, except for Anne, are blaming the little boy. OK. To Art Harris.

What about Mark Geragos back on the stand on Friday?

ART HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, he could be asked a lot of things. He`s got some things to explain, like why did his private investigator rent the storage unit that all the furniture and belongings of this family was put in for quite a while and would not give it back until he got repeated letters? There`s that. There`s also, you member the alleged jailhouse abuse that Michael Jackson suffered? There was a lot of complaining about how he was roughed up and the horrible conditions. Well...

GRACE: You mean the dislocated shoulder?

HARRIS: That`s right, and the attorney general`s investigators interviewed over 100 witnesses. I talked to a jailhouse inmate who say Michael Jackson, said it was the most courteous treatment he had ever gotten. And I asked him, well, how do you know that? And he said, well, you know, I`ve been booked seven times in the last three months. I ought to know. So, this is something that, you know, if you did not tell the truth about that jail abuse, are you telling the truth now about what these kids allegedly did to you?

GRACE: Of course, though, we may never hear about the jail abuse if Geragos gets his way and claims that he suddenly got a waiver only for direct examination, but on cross examination, he`s clamming up. Quick break, everybody. We`ll be right back with our panel.

But to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement, across the country, on the lookout for this man: Roger Craig Ewing wanted in connection for the 2003 Mississippi murder of his wife in Mississippi. Fifty-three, 6 feet, 190 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes, tattooed the words "love" and "hate" on his fingers. Call 601-948-5000 if you have info. Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back. Live Jackson coverage tomorrow on "Court TV" 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": As you may have seen on the news, next Tuesday I`m being called to testify in the Michael Jackson. No, I have to go up there -- I do, I have to testify next Tuesday. You know, despite what happens, I just hope that Michael and I can continue to be friends and ride Harleys together on weekends like we usually do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hate to see that come to an end?

LENO: I`d hate to see that fall by the wayside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yeah, don`t let that one fall apart, Jay Leno. Celebrities on the stand, we know, Mark Geragos is kind of a celebrity, at this juncture, is taking the stand. But, what about, Larry King? What about Jay Leno specifically, Jane Velez-Mitchell>

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Larry King was set to take the stand tomorrow. His attorney had a death in the family. They had wanted to postpone it, the judge scolded the defense, said, look we cannot go down. We have to keep witnesses moving through here. The clock is ticking. This is costing this county money. So, as far as we know, it may be Larry King may, indeed, testify tomorrow...

GRACE: There is Jane Velez-Mitchell getting firm. We may get Larry King maybe on the maybe stand tomorrow. What about Jay Leno? And, did you see that picture of Jay Leno wearing his P.J.`s?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yeah, that`s hilarious. We just heard, he said to his audience, he`s going to be here next Tuesday.

GRACE: And no, Debra Opri, I`m not making fun of Michael Jackson. It`s just that Jay Leno happens to be dressed like him with an umbrella holder, and not in a traditional sense, like vase, in your front entrance.

OPRI: I was there. I came, I saw. Listen, this is what I`m predicting. The defense team will wrap up mid-June. There will be one or two celebrities each week from now on. Look for Larry King possibly on Tuesday...

GRACE: You sound like a weather forecast. Look for Larry King on Tuesday, then partly sunny...

OPRI: I`m forecasting -- I`m forecasting and you better hold on to this trial, it`s good for ratings.

GRACE: Oh, 30 seconds. Dr. Patricia Saunders, will Jay Leno wear his P.J.`s to court?

SAUNDERS: I certainly hope so.

GRACE: What`s going on with the Celebes?

SAUNDERS: I think that the defense is trying to get the jury star- struck. I think they`re grooming them.

GRACE: And of course tomorrow night, hopefully we`ll have Jane Velez- Mitchell and weather girl, Debra Opri and our panel. Everybody, I want to thank all my guests, tonight. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting all us into your home. Coming up, headlines from around the world and Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off tonight and don`t forget about those two kids, the Amber Alert, eight and 9 years old tonight, still missing, shasta and Dylan. I hope I see you here tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired May 18, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, breaking news in the Idaho triple murder and Amber Alert. Tonight 33-year-old Rob Roy Lutner wanted for police questioning, and as of tonight, is named as a person of interest. Tonight, the hunt still on for the two missing kids, ages 8 and 9, their family found bound and murdered in their own home.
And it`s day 55 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. And I want to thank you for being with us tonight.

We go live to California, day 55 -- 55 -- in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. A 12-year-old boy, a cousin of Michael Jackson, used by the defense under oath today.

But first, breaking news. There is a person of interest in the Idaho triple homicide and Amber Alert. Robert Roy Lutner has been located. Police found the victims bound and murdered, but tonight, still missing, 8- year-old Shasta and her 9-year-old brother, Dylan Groene, missing from the same house. Their mother found brutally murdered, along with her 13-year- old son and the mom`s boyfriend.

With us, Kootenai County Sheriff Rocky Watson; defense attorney Debra Opri in L.A.; defense attorney Dino Lombardi in New York; psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders.

But first, let`s all go out to CNN correspondent Sean Callebs. He is there in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. Welcome, Sean. Bring us up-to-date.

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, we can tell you it was about a couple of hours ago when we learned that Robert Roy Lutner had been apprehended by authorities. He actually called and turned himself in. At the time, authorities didn`t say or won`t say where Lutner was. But apparently, he was very close, because it only took about an hour for sheriff`s officials, FBI and other investigators to reach him.

We know that there`s an interrogation going on now. We don`t know what Lutner is saying, if anything. Certainly, this is someone that the authorities have called a "person of interest," Nancy. That`s significant, because they are not calling him a suspect.

Perhaps the most significant of all of this, they believe that he was at this modest home where the crime took place as late as Sunday, perhaps the same timeframe the crime was going on. So perhaps this is someone who can shed some light on to what happened, the brutal murders you talked about.

GRACE: Also with us is Kootenai County sheriff, Sheriff Rocky Watson.

Sheriff, thank you for being with us tonight. Now, I`m hearing that this person of interest was there in the home, and our reporter has just told us around the time of the murders. Now, can`t the autopsies tell us when the murders occurred?

ROCKY WATSON, SHERIFF INVESTIGATING CASE: They will pin down the time very close for us. And we expect those autopsies to be done today. But because of the volume of three, we`re not sure it will be completed today.

GRACE: What can you tell me about Lutner, this person of interest?

WATSON: He was a local person. He is known to the sheriff`s office, but on not any major issues, I believe possession of marijuana, drunk driving, some misdemeanor charges. He is the last known person we know to have been at the residence before the bodies were discovered.

We`re glad we found him or he turned himself in. We`re anxious to find out what those interviews produce.

GRACE: So he is a local resident?

WATSON: Yes, he is. He lives in Hayden Lake, a small community about eight miles north of us.

GRACE: Have you searched his home and his car, or is this just an instance of questioning right now?

WATSON: No, this is just an interview with him right now.

GRACE: Now, my question to you is, can you nail down the time he was at the home? And why was he there?

WATSON: A semi was going by. Could you say that again?

GRACE: Yes, why was he in the home and what time was he there?

WATSON: He`s apparently a friend of the family, frequents the home. And he was there sometime Sunday afternoon. And that`s the closest time we can pin down right now.

GRACE: Let me go back to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent. Do we know how Lutner was located? I know he turned himself in. Has he actually gone to the police station?

CALLEBS: Lutner called and told authorities where he was. Now, at the time, the sheriff`s office wouldn`t tell us where it was, if it was in this area outside. But we know, within an hour, the investigators did reach Lutner.

We don`t know exactly where he is or what kind of information he is providing, but he is someone who called and then the authorities went to him. That is our understanding. There had been an APB out, all kinds of information about the old pickup truck that he was apparently driving, either a `75 Ford or a 1990 Toyota pickup truck. Apparently, the last truck he was seen driving was that `75.

GRACE: OK. We`re going to be right back with CNN reporter Sean Callebs.

But right, straight back to Sheriff Rocky Watson. Sheriff, about this Robert Lutner. What else can you tell us about him? I think I`ve got the sheriff with me. Sheriff, can you hear me? OK.

WATSON: Yes, I can.

GRACE: Sheriff, what else can you tell me about Robert Lutner? Is he married? Does he have a family? Does he have a job?

WATSON: He is employed locally. I don`t believe he`s married, but that -- I`m sorry, I don`t have that exact -- I don`t have that information for you.

GRACE: We`re going to be right back with the sheriff. We`re going to get that hearing problem cleared up.

Very quickly to Dino Lombardi, joining us tonight, veteran defense attorney. Dino, it will certainly make a big impression on the police that this guy turned himself in.

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, very much so. And if I`m hearing the sheriff correctly, I don`t think he had gone very far. Certainly, nothing in what was reported as his minor encounters with the police seem to have anything to do with his family or with crimes of violence.

So, just like the sheriff, I think we`re all sitting here and waiting to see what emerges from these interviews. But to go out on a limb a little bit, he doesn`t seem like a suspect.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF DEPARTMENT: We want to search every nook and cranny. You know, we were all kids once. We understand how kids, you know, have little forts or favorite places out in the woods near their home, things like that. We`re looking for those places. We`re checking every possible angle out. We`re going to leave no stone unturned in this thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: And to Debra Opri, also a veteran defense attorney. Debra, if they are not searching his home, searching his car, he doesn`t sound like a suspect to me, either.

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Yes.

GRACE: If they really believe this guy was involved, they would be looking in the car, in the home for any traces of blood, traces of these two missing kids.

OPRI: Absolutely, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes.

OPRI: What I think is he`s going to help with the timeline, when they might have disappeared. I`m going to go out on a limb here and say I smell a drug-related crime. These people were bound, gagged, and, from what I understand, brutally tortured and beaten.

So I think, if these kids were taken, it may be reminiscent of drug crimes where they`re hostages at this point in time. And that`s what I think. I think that Lutner will be able to lend some credence as to a timeline, and perhaps he may know some individuals.

GRACE: Well, Debra, that was our speculation last night, because I know the mom has a drug arrest.

OPRI: Yes.

GRACE: For all I know, that could have been some marijuana when she was in high school, for Pete`s sake. Now this guy has a drug issue.

And this is what impresses me even more, the fact that the family was bound. That does not sound like somebody going off in a fit of anger, like a crazy relative or anything.

OPRI: No, no.

GRACE: And this house, Debra, is located right...

OPRI: Interrogation.

GRACE: ... beside the interstate, people passing on I-90 all the time. They`re on an access road. That removes it from the small town (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that we had thought it was in.

OPRI: No, I`ll tell you what I think. This is very reminiscent to me of the kidnapping, and binding, and torture of what had happened with the Jesse James Hollywood killings in Santa Barbara county some years ago. If this is a drug-related crime, we`ll know soon enough what`s going on.

I would suspect at this point in time the questioning of Lutner may, in fact, give a timeline. And there has to be some DNA evidence, some connection to something. And I think they should round up all the connections she had to the drug people.

I don`t think it was just marijuana. I think, in fact -- and I may be wrong -- that it might have been methamphetamine possession.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JESSE GROENE, SON OF SLAIN WOMAN: I wish I had had a suspicion or I wish I knew who it was, you know? I cannot place it, who would do a thing like this. This is just tragedy, you know? I can`t think of anybody who was twisted, and evil, and lunatic enough to do this, you know?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is the son of the slain woman in this case.

And tonight, Elizabeth, can you show us the shots of Dylan and Shasta please? These two kids still missing, no trace of an 8-year-old and a 9- year-old.

To Dr. Patricia Saunders, what`s your take on this as of tonight, Doctor?

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: I agree that it looks like it`s drug-related...

GRACE: Why?

SAUNDERS: ... that it`s revenge. Well, what you said about it being bound. Mom does have a more extensive drug history than...

GRACE: It`s paraphernalia. You know what that is? That could be a roach clip, for all I know. Paraphernalia.

SAUNDERS: There was a report -- and I don`t know if it`s true -- that she was ordered by a judge to a substance abuse treatment program. And she had trouble going.

GRACE: She`s a user. Why would that entail a drug hit? This is not the mafia, OK?

SAUNDERS: Drug users buy from people. And if they don`t make good on it, they can get into really serious trouble.

GRACE: Well, serious trouble like breaking your knees, but if you kill the person that owes you money, you`re not going to get your next payment.

SAUNDERS: But if you`re a dealer who is on meth and totally out of your mind, you`re going to lose it.

GRACE: You know what? Dino Lombardi, before we go to break, Patricia Saunders and Debra Opri brought up an important point. There`s a big difference -- and you know it, Dino -- in a meth issue and a pot issue. If we`re talking about methamphetamines being at the heart of this drug issue, that`s a lot more prone to violence than somebody that has a pot problem.

LOMBARDI: Absolutely right, that there isn`t the kind, whether for cultural reasons or monetary reasons, we have seen violence and the use and threat of violence surround hard drugs, meth. There`s a lot more money involved and willingness to use violence to protect one`s interest.

GRACE: And also, what it does to you -- what methamphetamine does to you, physically, you get crazy. You have a joint, people sit back and watch TV for twelve hours.

LOMBARDI: Right. Exactly. Exactly.

GRACE: With meth, they break into a liquor store and kill everybody.

LOMBARDI: Right. And it might even be -- and even dealers are users sometimes, too. So it may be a mixed kind of situation like that. But I want to -- let`s have everybody pull back just a little bit. And I applaud you, Nancy for...

GRACE: Pull back? There`s two kids missing. Pull back? What are you talking about?

LOMBARDI: No, no, no, I mean in speculating about this mother`s situation. And I applaud you, Nancy for pointing out we don`t know that this poor, dead woman...

GRACE: Oh, god, I know I`m in trouble now. Dino Lombardi is applauding me. You know what? I`m not even going to let you finish that sentence.

Quick break, everybody. Tonight, an 8-year-old and a 9-year-old still missing. There`s been a triple homicide in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. These two kids still missing, taken from the home. The mom, the 13-year-old brother, the boyfriend bound and murdered. We`ll go straight back out to Coeur d`Alene when we get back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s always been the media that have given us the lead that broke the case or broke the story for us. And we`re counting on somebody out there knowing something about the family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reality is, investigators have no suspects at this time, and three bodies, and a question unanswered: Why?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIAN MESSERLY, NEIGHBOR: I came over last night, and I knocked on the door. When I pulled up, Mark`s truck was there. Yes, and I knocked on the door. There was blood on the door. I didn`t think to notice. I just didn`t. Because yes, Mark`s a hunter, and I didn`t think nothing of it. I should have went in the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. There has been a triple homicide, the family bound and murdered in the home, blood everywhere. Two children tonight still missing, 8 years old, 9 years old.

Let`s go straight out to CNN correspondent Sean Callebs. Sean, let`s nail down the timeline. Now, nobody realized the kids were missing until about six hours later. How did that happen?

CALLEBS: Nancy, I think that is a very important point that we`re going to continue to hammer away as this investigation goes on. Apparently, an individual came to the house. He was going to pay the 13- year-old son for cutting his lawn. At that time, noticed something is wrong. That is when authorities were called.

They arrived here Monday evening local time around 6:00 p.m. For three people in the house who had been murdered, no one to tell authorities that there were two children missing. It wasn`t until they identified the victims, they were able to talk to next of kin that they realized there were two children unaccounted for.

That is when the word went out, things began moving quickly. And the following morning, the Amber Alert went out, which, of course has spawned so many calls into this area.

But really, we were talking to the sheriff a short while ago. And he said that that time period, you can`t overstate how important it is. Look, the first two hours after a child has been abducted usually yields the most information. If you think about it, six hours from where we are in Idaho, somebody could have driven all the way from Seattle. And from there, who knows where they could have gone?

GRACE: Now, you said a neighbor came to the door to pay the 13-year- old, who was murdered, for doing some work for him, saw something unusual. You`re darn right. Wasn`t it blood on the door to the home?

CALLEBS: Well, that`s something we`ll have to ask the sheriff about. I don`t think that the individual actually went into the house. I just think that...

GRACE: The door, the doorknob.

CALLEBS: ... he had indications something was wrong.

GRACE: The doorknob. Look, you know what? Good point.

Let`s go to Sheriff Rocky Watson. What alarmed the neighbor? What made the neighbor think something was amiss?

WATSON: More that just nobody answered the door, and the house was dark. And he knew they should have been home. And he called us for a welfare check to go out and check. And that`s when we checked and found -- when we entered the house to find the three bodies.

GRACE: Back to Sean Callebs. The wife of the neighbor told our show that blood was spotted, and it alarmed the neighbor, naturally. But you`re telling me, at that point already, about six hours were lost.

Now, let me ask you this. After that, it rained heavily in the area. Are they still looking for clues around the house? Have they called in cadaver dogs yet again?

CALLEBS: Yes, without question. There`s been a great deal of activity around here.

Firstly, you`re exactly right. The integrity of the crime scene outside the home certainly suffered. It simply poured here for about 12 hours. And think about it. They were looking for a very specific truck for that person of interest.

So if they`re going to use that crime scene, try and see if there were any kind of tire tracks made by a truck or if there were footprints, somebody was heavy, were there two people, were there three people? That`s the kind of information they would have been able to gather. But once the rain came down, the driveway is dirt. It certainly had an adverse effect on that area.

Secondly, there are both cadaver and rescue dogs that have working these hills out here. If you look behind us, it`s very thick undergrowth. The brush is very thick. Authorities have actually been going out with sticks in some areas.

There are horses, Nancy, that are actually going up into the mountains this evening. And the sheriff just told me that tomorrow they`re going to put divers in some of the water around here, see if they can determine if any of the lakes, streams or small rivers -- see if there`s anything in there that leads them to believe that perhaps the children could have ended up there.

GRACE: Yes. Well, the reality is, to me, that wouldn`t make any sense. Of course, they`ve got to look in those areas, because why would you wipe out the family, bound and murdered in the home, then take two kids away, and murder them, and dispose of their bodies separately?

Of course, you know, truth is stranger than fiction. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: We don`t know if he`s involved in the crime. But we know he was here Sunday evening. That`s the last timeframe we can put everybody here at the house last alive.

So he`s a person of interest. He may have seen something. He may have known someone else was here at the residence. He may have met somebody as he was leaving the residence, as he was leaving, they may have been coming in. That`s the kind of information we hope to glean from him.

ROB HOLLINGSWORTH, NEIGHBOR WHO CALLED POLICE: I had had Slade do some work for me the day before. He mowed the grass along my fence. And I owed him $10. And I didn`t have the change.

So I got the change and came back the next day to pay him. And of course, when I knocked on the door, and no one came to the door -- it was pitch black in there, and the dogs were barking -- but both vehicles were there. And so that`s when I got suspicious. And one door of the car was open, and it just looked suspicious. So I called the sheriff`s department at that point.

QUESTION: Did you have any idea that...

HOLLINGSWORTH: No, but I had a real bad feeling. Because always, some kid or the dog or something comes out of there, you know?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: One door to the car was open. Back to Sheriff Rocky Watson with the Kootenai County sheriff`s office. I understand that forensic experts from Spokane are there. Are you trying to retrieve fingerprints from the bodies?

WATSON: They`re not missing any of the opportunities. The Idaho state police has got both their crime lab teams here. And they`re going through the body -- or they`re going through the house very meticulously for all the blood samples, DNAs, any evidence in the house. And then there`s another team working with the coroner at the autopsy for any signs of evidence left on the bodies.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We`ll be right back in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho.

But first, to "Trial Tracking": The middle school reading teacher, Debra LaFave, accused of having sex with a 14-year-old student wants to cut a deal. Prosecutor`s say LaFave`s psychiatric evaluation is in.

Now, her lawyer promised he would use the insanity defense if he couldn`t get a deal. Now, if she`s convicted, LaFave faces 15 years behind bars and a lifetime labeled as a sex predator.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN FITZGIBBONS, ATTY. FOR TEACHER ACCUSED OF HAVING SEX WITH STUDENT: I still believe that there`s probably not going to be any doctors in this case who are going to disagree with each other that Debbie is ill, and has had some very profound emotional and mental issues over the years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MESSERLY: I came over last night, and I knocked on the door. When I pulled up, Mark`s truck was there. Yes, and I knocked on the door. There was blood on the door. I didn`t think to notice. I just didn`t. Because yes, Mark`s a hunter, and I didn`t think nothing of it. I should have went in the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Valuable time lost, at least six hours. Two children missing tonight, ages 8 and 9. Three family members dead, the mom, the boyfriend, and the 13-year-old brother.

Very quickly, let`s go straight out to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent. When do you expect the autopsies to be completed? Let me just tell you, it is very difficult, Sean, to get fingerprints off a body. That`s hard.

CALLEBS: Well, I`m sure it is. I`m not a forensics expert. But I can tell you, the FBI is here. They`ve been working very closely with the sheriff`s office, as you mentioned, law enforcement officers from Washington State. Information has gone all the way up into Canada.

We understand that two of these autopsies are expected to be completed today, the third tomorrow. At that time, Nancy, we perhaps will know the exact cause of death. All we know is it is very brutal, as you mentioned, blood in the room, and the victims were bound.

GRACE: So Sean, we don`t know if they were stabbed or shot? I doubt they were asphyxiated, strangled, because there was so much blood. There was even blood, as the neighbor just said, on the doorknob, Sean.

CALLEBS: Yes, very difficult to say. Anything would be pure speculation. The authorities have been very tight-lipped about that, certainly wanting to control any information that gets out, because, as you know, these hours are very crucial, trying to determine exactly what happened and who was involved.

And they`re really behind the eight ball at this point, because events out of their control. First, not finding out that the children were missing for six hours. And then, simply, the weather, how it affected the outside scene, the outside crime scene.

GRACE: Sean, I`ve only got 30 seconds left to break. What can you tell me about Mark McKenzie?

CALLEBS: Mark McKenzie, the boyfriend, apparently had a couple of arrests for misdemeanors, no serious involvement in any kind of trouble, any kind of drugs. Someone who had been seeing Brenda Groene for some time.

GRACE: Got you.

CALLEBS: But that`s really about all the information that we have.

GRACE: I`ll be right back with you, Sean. We are live in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, OF SHERIFFS DEPT. COEUR D`ALENE, IDAHO: We know this is a triple homicide, because all three victims were bound. And that`s new information, I know, for you guys. That`s important to us as far as processing this crime scene.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Welcome back, let`s go straight out to Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. Standing by, Sheriff Rocky Watson, the Kootenai County sheriff.

Sheriff, has a murder weapon been recovered?

ROCKY WATSON, SHERIFF KOOTENAI COUNTY: We have not determined the cause of death yet. That won`t be done until we have the results of the autopsy. So, no, there have been no murder weapons recovered.

GRACE: There`s been a lot of discussion, tonight, that these murders were drug related. What do you think, sheriff?

WATSON: When I toured the crime scene I saw no drugs, no paraphernalia, no apparatus, so I`ve got nothing to support that.

GRACE: OK. Has the ex-husband of Brenda Groene been eliminated as a suspect?

WATSON: I don`t know the detectives -- the detectives excluded him early in the process. I didn`t ask, there was enough going on. We`ve really have been directing our energies, my energies towards the search of the children.

GRACE: Yeah.

WATSON: And the Amber Alert and finding those kids.

GRACE: Right. That was my question, if he had been excluded and I hear you say he has been. The ex-husband has been excluded. Is the family cooperating with this investigation?

WATSON: Yes.

GRACE: Is your agency getting help tonight from other agencies and who?

WATSON: We`re getting help from everybody. The Idaho, or the FBI has given us their objective Abused Child Unit and they`re working on the missing children aspect. There`s a national group on an abducted and abused children that have helped here with their resources and they`re working in the emergency operations that are helping screen the tips that are coming in and directing those. Our neighboring counties and cities in Spokane, Washington, have got their teams over here. Idaho State Police is here, Coeur d`Alene city, there is not anybody that`s not -- everybody`s offered help and we`ve taken them up and we`ve all paired off in teams. They`re all pursuing different leads and different aspects of it. Then they re-group a different couple times a day and debrief and redirect and go out again.

GRACE: Sheriff, you guys are working around the clock, aren`t you?

WATSON: Yes, we are.

GRACE: Let`s go to Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent. A lot of speculation about possibly being a drug-related murder, any ideas from the crime scene itself, Sean?

CALLEBS: Well, I think we heard the sheriff say when he went in there, no drugs, no paraphernalia, but there are some things about this area you should know. This is an area where crystal meth is a big problem. It`s rural area, it`s very use easy to cook it out here. It`s cheaper than cocaine, it gives those who are interested a greater high, and it certainly has caused a certain degree of people in this area to wind up in the county jail, about 30 percent of those in the jail, there, for drug charges. But, the sheriff told me a short while ago, he believes that about 70, about three out of four people in the jail do use drugs regularly.

GRACE: Well you know, Sean, that changes the fact it is possibly drug related and that that drug is crystal meth, changes the whole scenario. Listen, you don`t have a lot of shootouts over a joint, but when you`re talking about crystal meth, that`s a completely different ball game, Sean.

CALLEBS: Well, without question. I think that one thing that the authorities are doing, and perhaps they`re not openly saying it, they`re trying to find a motive for all of this. What would it -- what caused somebody to go in, tie these three people up, brutally kill them, and apparently take the two children? That`s going to be the big question. We know that the mother, Brenda Groene, had a history of drug arrest. A lot of them were pleaded down to misdemeanors. Don`t know anything about the boyfriend, any serious drug involvement, whatsoever. But also, the person of interest, that we talked about, this is somebody too, who dabbled in drugs, so they are certainly skirting this on the fringe. Whether this all come back and be connected in some way, that`s what we`re going to have to find out.

GRACE: Yeah, interesting point, Sean Callebs, that we already know of three people involved who have a drug past. I mean, there`s no way to get around that. Very quickly to Debra Opri.

Why are you insistent that this is drug related?

DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the as a criminal defense attorney, you always look to the region and the area and the environment. First of all, tell me who you go with, I`ll tell you what you are. This is a crystal methamphetamine area and it just doesn`t seem to be a random act of violence, though it may be. Blood on the door is a key here. Bounding -- binding these people, killing them, and two missing children? It has every topnotch element, here, that these kids were taken for a reason: A message.

GRACE: Dr. Patricia Saunders is with us, psychotherapist.

Do you think this could be a random murder?

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Not likely, Nancy.

GRACE: I don`t either.

SAUNDERS: And as you know, only about 14 percent of all homicides are a stranger or random.

GRACE: No, the fact that they were bound speaks a lot to me, because that took some planning, that took some foresight and they had to be bound before they were shot.

Dino Lombardi, let`s talk about the crime scene. There`s no need, obviously, to bind someone after the shooting. So, these people were contained, bound, and then murdered. Why? And why were the two kids not taken? I want to go back quickly to the theory of getting fingerprints off a body. Thoughts?

DINO LOMBARDI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It`s very difficult to get fingerprints off a body or off of clothing. If somebody is a very heavily secretor from their fingertip, that would make it more likely to get a useable print from a body, but...

GRACE: Have you ever seen it done? Have you ever seen it done except on TV? Be honest.

LOMBARDI: Honestly, I have -- I have read a reported decision that I`m thinking of right now where it was, and there was a lot of contest in the litigation about...

GRACE: I didn`t ask you, had you read about it in a book.

LOMBARDI: Seen it, no. Experienced it, no.

GRACE: You know what? I have tried, I have to have crime labs, to have autopsies lift prints off bodies.

LOMBARDI: Right.

GRACE: I`ve tried it many, many times and it`s never worked. Here`s the exception. This is a very bloody crime scene, Dino.

LOMBARDI: Right.

GRACE: And with that, maybe you can get a fingerprint.

LOMBARDI: Maybe you`ll get a fingerprint in the blood, hopefully, is going to yield something because, obviously, the first thing they`re going to do is try to see whether the blood belongs to any of the victims. If they have blood at the scene that does not belong to a victim and they catch somebody and there`s a link, you`ve got your murder.

GRACE: And very quickly, back to Sean Callebs, reports are circulating that blood on the porch or on the doorknob on the outside do not -- does not belong to the three victims. True? Not true?

CALLEBS: Simply don`t know the answer, Nancy. I wish I did, because that certainly is something very important. And real quickly, I also want to point out, while we`re talking about the victims bound and then shot, the sheriff was over here shaking his head. No one has said they were shot. We don`t know a cause of death yet. Just want to point that out.

GRACE: OK, but you know what? You`re right about that, sheriff. We don`t know shot or stabbed. We know not asphyxiated because of the degree of blood. But in any event, the theory is still true. You would not bind someone after they were murdered. So, these people were clearly bound and killed. And that is not a random killing. It simply is not a random killing -- Sheriff.

WATSON: This is not a random killing. Somebody came here with a mission.

GRACE: And, one last thing, Sheriff, I know you`re busy. I know you got to get back to work, but the Amber Alert is still in effect tonight. What does that encompass?

WATSON: That is -- it has now turned into a nationwide Amber Alert, because of the time element. They now have the ability to be in several states away from us. And we need to find these children. I need to believe these children are still alive.

GRACE: Do you? Do you think that, Sheriff? Is that your gut instinct tonight, that they are still alive?

WATSON: I need to believe they`re still alive. Why would you wipe out an entire family of five and carry off two bodies?

GRACE: That`s my thinking, too, Sheriff, but, you know what? I don`t know if I believe it in my mind or if I want to believe it in my heart. Sheriff Rocky Watson with us, Kootenai County sheriff, there in Coeur d`Alene. Sir, I`ll let you get back to work.

Sean Callebs, CNN correspondent, thank you, friend.

Everyone, we`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. We are live in Santa Maria. Oh, yes. The Michael Jackson case is still raging. Let`s go straight out to "Celebrity Justice`s" Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, what went down in court today?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, I have to tell you, Nancy, graphic testimony by Michael Jackson`s 12-year-old cousin. But what everybody is buzzing about, right now, is that the defense could be nearing the end of its case. You may recall, back when they first announced their witness list, there were more than 250 names on it. People just about keeled over. Well today, in court, the defense announced they have dramatically paired down that list implying they could be wrapping up in a couple of weeks. Operative word, "could." Nothing is set in stone. As for Michael Jackson`s cousin, he said he saw the accuser and his brother masturbating while they were watching naked ladies on television. Now, this could hurt the prosecution`s case, because the accuser testified,

GRACE: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: As you know...

GRACE: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: During the prosecution...

GRACE: Jane... VELEZ-MITCHELL: Case...

GRACE: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: That Michael Jackson taught him how to masturbate.

GRACE: Jane, you just had to keep going, didn`t you? I tried to stop you. You just kept on -- Jane, is the jury just like frozen with disgust? How much more do they have to hear about masturbation?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The ick factor is definitely alive and well in this case. I have to tell you, to see a very young, very handsome 12-year-old boy take the stand and he looked at one point like he was near tears. I mean, this has to be traumatic on him to have to get up and talk about this very, very graphic stuff in front of a room full of adults, so I felt very sympathetic to him. And his testimony was, indeed, very disturbing.

GRACE: To Anne Bremner, high-profile Seattle lawyer. She`s been in the courtroom from the get-go.

Anne Bremner, I find it very difficult to believe that little boys, for instance, would come into your home and suddenly go throw back a bottle of wine, masturbate in plain view, and flick on the porn station. Now, what does this say to you about the environment in Neverland?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, Michael Jackson leads by example, Nancy, and it`s not a good example. Neverland is a place of pornography -- a lot of pornography, booze, and carnival rides. That`s the atmosphere at Neverland. And they`re simply imitating Michael Jackson and doing what he does. And this helps the prosecution, I think, tremendously. If he didn`t mention, didn`t want to talk about that, well, I don`t think that makes him not a credible witness, the accuser. It is what it is. It`s a netherworld at Neverland. It`s not a pretty sight.

GRACE: Debra Opri is the Jackson family attorney. Debra, what do you make of the testimony today, putting up this kid, a 12-year-old kid to defend Jackson?

OPRI: Well first, you know, Ann`s terrific, I`ve known her a long time, but you`re dead wrong. You sound like the prosecutor, today. First of all, none of his testimony has hurt Michael Jackson. He got up, he`s a very young kid, he said basically to delineate what the accuser said, he taught us how to masturbate. These kids, he said, knew already what was going on and they made me sick. So, I went to uncle -- to my cousin, Michael`s room, and I stayed with him. The only thing that I would say...

GRACE: Wait, wait, wait. In the same bed?

OPRI: It doesn`t matter. That`s not the crime charged, you know. He was there today to chip away at what? The accuser saying Michael Jackson taught us how to masturbate. That was the issue. The issue was, no, they lied to you, jury. It was them who were going all at it. It was them who were getting the alcohol. It was them who were out of control. And I know. I shared my room with them and they made me so sick, I went back to Michael`s rom where I slept peacefully. That`s what purpose he served today.

GRACE: Dr. Saunders?

SAUNDERS: If it wasn`t so serious, I`d almost laugh because the whole defense seems to be organized around these evil children have corrupted and taken advantage of poor Michael Jackson. Normal children don`t behave this way in a normal house. Children respond to the environment, as everybody has been saying. And they don`t normally masturbate and drink alcohol unless they`ve been given full license.

GRACE: And find the porn channel. Dino Lombardi, you know that on Jackson`s satellite TV, or whatever he`s got, there`s got to be 300, 400 channels. Now how do these kids walk in and suddenly, like, hone in on the porn channel as they drank from a bottle of wine?

LOMBARDI: Well, gee.

GRACE: They had to learn it somewhere, dino.

LOMBARDI: Gee, yeah, and they learned it, as far as we know, they learned it because they have had bad parenting. I can`t believe what I`m hearing from Anne bremner or Dr. Saunders, with all due respect. Kids know how to navigate their way around computers and televisions better than adults, there`s no allegations that Michael Jackson was anywhere near while this was going on. It`s absolute nonsense...

GRACE: Well, how do they know how to navigate Neverland? How did they know where the wine cellar was? How did they know how to find the porn channel?

LOMBARDI: Because they were left -- they were left to go exploring on their own. If Jackson is guilty of anything, with regard to that, he`s letting them run roughshod across his estate, but it has nothing to do, whatsoever, with any of the charges in this case, whether they were to lead by example. Anne Bremner really should do a gut check on those kind of comments as a defense attorney. Absolute nonsense...

GRACE: Well hold on. Let`s not have the pot call the kettle black tonight.

Absolute nonsense.

GRACE: Very quickly to Art Harris, an investigative reporter. Let`s switch gears quickly. I know most of the panel, except for Anne, are blaming the little boy. OK. To Art Harris.

What about Mark Geragos back on the stand on Friday?

ART HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nancy, he could be asked a lot of things. He`s got some things to explain, like why did his private investigator rent the storage unit that all the furniture and belongings of this family was put in for quite a while and would not give it back until he got repeated letters? There`s that. There`s also, you member the alleged jailhouse abuse that Michael Jackson suffered? There was a lot of complaining about how he was roughed up and the horrible conditions. Well...

GRACE: You mean the dislocated shoulder?

HARRIS: That`s right, and the attorney general`s investigators interviewed over 100 witnesses. I talked to a jailhouse inmate who say Michael Jackson, said it was the most courteous treatment he had ever gotten. And I asked him, well, how do you know that? And he said, well, you know, I`ve been booked seven times in the last three months. I ought to know. So, this is something that, you know, if you did not tell the truth about that jail abuse, are you telling the truth now about what these kids allegedly did to you?

GRACE: Of course, though, we may never hear about the jail abuse if Geragos gets his way and claims that he suddenly got a waiver only for direct examination, but on cross examination, he`s clamming up. Quick break, everybody. We`ll be right back with our panel.

But to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement, across the country, on the lookout for this man: Roger Craig Ewing wanted in connection for the 2003 Mississippi murder of his wife in Mississippi. Fifty-three, 6 feet, 190 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes, tattooed the words "love" and "hate" on his fingers. Call 601-948-5000 if you have info. Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back. Live Jackson coverage tomorrow on "Court TV" 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern. Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": As you may have seen on the news, next Tuesday I`m being called to testify in the Michael Jackson. No, I have to go up there -- I do, I have to testify next Tuesday. You know, despite what happens, I just hope that Michael and I can continue to be friends and ride Harleys together on weekends like we usually do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hate to see that come to an end?

LENO: I`d hate to see that fall by the wayside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yeah, don`t let that one fall apart, Jay Leno. Celebrities on the stand, we know, Mark Geragos is kind of a celebrity, at this juncture, is taking the stand. But, what about, Larry King? What about Jay Leno specifically, Jane Velez-Mitchell>

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Larry King was set to take the stand tomorrow. His attorney had a death in the family. They had wanted to postpone it, the judge scolded the defense, said, look we cannot go down. We have to keep witnesses moving through here. The clock is ticking. This is costing this county money. So, as far as we know, it may be Larry King may, indeed, testify tomorrow...

GRACE: There is Jane Velez-Mitchell getting firm. We may get Larry King maybe on the maybe stand tomorrow. What about Jay Leno? And, did you see that picture of Jay Leno wearing his P.J.`s?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yeah, that`s hilarious. We just heard, he said to his audience, he`s going to be here next Tuesday.

GRACE: And no, Debra Opri, I`m not making fun of Michael Jackson. It`s just that Jay Leno happens to be dressed like him with an umbrella holder, and not in a traditional sense, like vase, in your front entrance.

OPRI: I was there. I came, I saw. Listen, this is what I`m predicting. The defense team will wrap up mid-June. There will be one or two celebrities each week from now on. Look for Larry King possibly on Tuesday...

GRACE: You sound like a weather forecast. Look for Larry King on Tuesday, then partly sunny...

OPRI: I`m forecasting -- I`m forecasting and you better hold on to this trial, it`s good for ratings.

GRACE: Oh, 30 seconds. Dr. Patricia Saunders, will Jay Leno wear his P.J.`s to court?

SAUNDERS: I certainly hope so.

GRACE: What`s going on with the Celebes?

SAUNDERS: I think that the defense is trying to get the jury star- struck. I think they`re grooming them.

GRACE: And of course tomorrow night, hopefully we`ll have Jane Velez- Mitchell and weather girl, Debra Opri and our panel. Everybody, I want to thank all my guests, tonight. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us and inviting all us into your home. Coming up, headlines from around the world and Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off tonight and don`t forget about those two kids, the Amber Alert, eight and 9 years old tonight, still missing, shasta and Dylan. I hope I see you here tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night, friend.

END