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Head-to-Head; Tougher Power?; Majority Power; Meeting with Vicente Fox; A Divided Republican Party

Aired May 19, 2005 - 18:00   ET


LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everybody. Tonight, out of control court. Congress defies President Bush with a massive highway spending bill. Will the president use his veto power for the first time in his presidency?
And has American conservatism passed into history? My guest is a former presidential candidate, Patrick Buchanan, who says conservatism in this country is at war with itself.

Our top story tonight, the United States and North Korea have held direct nuclear talks for the first time. The meeting comes amid rising tension over North Korea's escalating nuclear program. North Korea has been demanding head-to-head negotiations for years, but the State Department declared these talks, while they were head-to-head, weren't negotiations.

Kitty Pilgrim reports.


KITTY PILGRIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: U.S. officials insisted they were not one-one-one negotiations but working-level discussions, a quiet way to use what they call the New York channel.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: This is a fairly normal contact that we do have from time to time with the Negotiations. It is not in any way a negotiation.

PILGRIM: The United States has long refused to negotiate one-on- one with North Korea, instead preferring other countries in the region to use their leverage to get North Korea back to the table. South Korea was doing just that for the last two days, promising North Korea a "substantial proposal," but in the end, no progress was reported.

What many find striking is the United States was not told of the details of the South Korean proposal. Some predict an increasing split between the United States and South Korea over the issue.

IAN BREMMER, EURASIA GROUP: We've already heard South Korean diplomats just in the past week say that they see themselves playing a balancing role between the United States and North Korea and the region. That's very different than the close strategic relationship and umbrella the U.S. has with South Korea in terms of U.S. troops on the ground and so forth.

PILGRIM: And some say the talks themselves are all but dead after being stalled for nearly a year.

FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: Unfortunately, our experience to date is nothing good comes out of talking with the North Koreans. What happens when you engage the North Koreans is you simply buy more time for the North Koreans to pursue the weapons of mass destruction programs they are bent on having. Specifically, nuclear weapons.


PILGRIM: Now, for the moment, however, the United States and its allies are betting heavily on the talks. Experts say alternatives, like U.N. Security Council sanctions, or some kind of quarantines, are considerably more aggressive options, but ones that will be discussed if the talks will ultimately not be able to be reconvened -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kitty, thank you very much. Kitty Pilgrim.

Senate Republicans tonight are preparing to introduce a bill to give the FBI much broader powers to fight terrorism. That proposal is part of a broad effort to renew the Patriot Act. But civil liberties advocates are already raising objections to increasing the FBI's powers.

Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena with the report.


KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): If the administration gets its way, FBI agents would be able to obtain a variety of personal records from businesses and other entities without an OK from a judge or a grand jury.

ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: We may get information from the CIA or another agency that a person has come into the United States and is staying at a particular hotel in Washington, D.C. with an intent to link up with somebody else to conduct a terrorist attack in New York City. We need the information from the hotel.

ARENA: The vehicle would be administrative subpoenas which would clear the way in a hurry, because they can be approved by either the FBI director or agents in charge of local field offices. Federal agents for years have had the authority to issue administrative subpoenas when investigating crimes such as health care fraud or drug trafficking.

MUELLER: I think there are approximately 300 separate statutes to provide for the utility or the use of administrative subpoenas. It makes very good sense for us to have that tool available when it comes to national security investigations.

ARENA: But civil rights advocates worry the proposed power is too broad and will be used in cases that have nothing to do with national security.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This would allow the government to essentially get access to people's medical records, personnel records, financial records, without any judicial oversight or any judicial review.

ARENA: The subpoenas can be challenged in court. And the bill is expected to require to tell the administration to tell Congress twice a year specifically how the new power is being used. But Romero says congressional oversight is not enough.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The public reporting on how these powers are being used cannot be placed in change of judicial review.

ARENA: The proposal is part of a larger effort to renew parts of the Patriot Act which expire at the end of the year.


ARENA: But it's not at all clear whether there's enough support to make those provisions permanent, let alone to expand those powers even further -- Lou.

DOBBS: Kelli, thank you very much. Kelli Arena from Washington.

Federal agents today charged a high-profile Cuban exile and foe of Fidel Castro with entering this country illegally from Mexico. Immigration agents arrested Luis Posada-Carriles near Miami Tuesday. Posada, a former CIA operative, is wanted in Venezuela as well for allegedly plotting to blow up a Cuban airliner.

Posada denies any involvement in that plot. Venezuela, of course, is a staunch ally of Cuba.

On Capitol Hill, it's day two of the Senate confrontation over judicial appointments and filibuster. Republican and Democratic senators today stepped up their rhetoric and their attacks on one another and their policies.

Congressional Correspondent Joe Johns reports -- Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Lou, this debate has continued on the floor of the United States Senate all day long. Senator Jon Kyl on the floor right now, and it is expected to go somewhat into the evening, with a view toward a possible showdown vote on the issue of blocking nominations sometime early next week.

Meanwhile, behind the scenes, the negotiation has continued as well all day long between a number of members of the Democratic Party and the Republican Party with a view toward trying to block and keep from going toward that vote.

Let's listen now to Senator Mark Pryor of Arkansas who talked about the optimism after the last meeting broke up.


SEN. MARK PRYOR (D), ARKANSAS: I would say we're as optimistic as we have ever been. But we're not quite there yet. I mean, it's important to understand we're not quite there yet.

Working through this. A lot of issues here. And, you know, we're going to spend the next hour probably together and maybe on the phone with others, and maybe with others, and try to work through these issues and make sure that, you know, we thought through all the ramifications of this.


JOHNS: Also keeping track of the tone of the debate on the floor of the United States Senate. We heard our latest reference to Adolph Hitler on the floor today.

Back in early March, Senator Robert Byrd got slammed by some activist groups for comparing Republicans and their plan to shut down the filibuster to Nazi Germany and Hitler. Today, Senator Rick Santorum came out on the floor and sort of took up the issue and went a little bit further with it.

Let's listen to what he had to say.


SEN. RICK SANTORUM (R), PENNSYLVANIA: The rule has been in place for 214 years that this is the way we confirm judges, broken by the other side two years ago. And the audacity of some members to stand up and say, "How dare you break this rule," that's the equivalent of Adolph Hitler in 1942 saying, "I'm in Paris. How dare you invade me. How dare you bomb my city. It's mine."

This is no more the rule of the Senate than it was the rule of the Senate before not to filibuster.


JOHNS: Naturally, Democratic activists have been already seizing on the remarks of Senator Santorum. We called his office for a comment, didn't hear anything from him.

Of course, as I said, Senator Byrd made some references to Hitler and Nazi Germany back in March. We also called his office. Nothing from him, as well.

Lou, back to you.

DOBBS: Apparently, they are saying what they mean on the floor of the Senate, Joe. At this point, the conflicting reports on whether or not there's any progress in this compromise, let's go to the -- to the basic question. Is there any new reason why Republicans with a majority should compromise on this issue?

JOHNS: Well, certainly. It's a question of how much Democrats might want to give up. That's probably the key question in these negotiations.

Both sides, obviously, as you know, Lou, would have to give up something. Democrats, of course, would have to give up their right to filibuster a certain number of judges in exchange for Republicans giving up the so-called nuclear option, or changing the rules so that filibusters aren't an order on judicial nominations.

That, of course, is the key. The question is, how much is one party willing to give up before they are willing to say there's absolutely no deal? And that is something we can't know unless we're in the room.

DOBBS: Right, admittedly. It's just difficult to find what in the world the Republicans would have to give up for that -- that majority in these negotiations. It will be a hard negotiation if these do go on. Joe Johns, as always, thank you, sir.

Coming up next, your hard-earned tax dollars could be used to build a bridge to nowhere, among other things. We'll have a special report for you on some of the most outrageous uses of your tax dollars.

And the Bush administration finally takes action to limit the flood of cheap Chinese imports, but that action comes far too late for hundreds of thousands of American workers.

Those stories are next.


DOBBS: A massive $300 billion highway spending bill has now passed both houses of Congress. Lawmakers claim it will clear gridlock and make our roads safer. The White House has warned, however, the bill is too expensive and could result in the first veto of the Bush presidency. Critics say that bill is loaded with pet projects and outrageous pork barrel spending.

Lisa Sylvester reports from Washington.


LISA SYLVESTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The House of Representatives want to spend $200 million to build a bridge between Ketchikan, Alaska, and an island with 50 people in the Tongass National forest. It's been called a bridge to nowhere.

It's one of 4,000 pet projects or earmarks in the $284 billion House version of the highway bill. There's also 3 million taxpayer dollars slated to renovate the National Packard Museum in Ohio, and $5 million to build a water taxi terminal in New York.

RONALD UTT, HERITAGE FOUNDATION: The transportation program has really become a grab-bag of all these spending programs, and so it's less and less of value to the motorist.

SYLVESTER: Consumers pay for these transportation projects at the pump with an 18-cent-a-gallon federal gas tax. The Senate Highway Bill that passed Wednesday has an even higher price tag than the House version, $295 billion. That exceeds the money allocated in the budget and is above what is acceptable to the White House to avoid a veto. Transportation advocates argue the money is needed to address the nation's aging infrastructure.

EDWARD MORTIMER, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: By neglecting our infrastructure, we're causing people to move to other parts of the country. And then we have the problem that parts of the country don't have an infrastructure. We have to create new infrastructure.

SYLVESTER: But taxpayer groups say the budget-busting legislation sets a bad precedent at a time when Congress has mounting obligations, including the war in Iraq.

TOM SCHATZ, CITIZENS AGAINST GOVERNMENT WASTE: Overall, the war is costing $300 billion. We really can't afford to have the House and Senate start overspending anything within their budget.

SYLVESTER: Unless some of the fat is cut out in conference committee, fiscal conservatives say taxpayers will be run over by the high cost of the highway bill.


SYLVESTER: Congressional lawmakers are having a hard time bridging the differences. And it's unlikely that negotiators will be able to reach a compromise by the end of the month, when an exhe extension of the current highway bill expires. That means they will drag this on through the beginning of summer -- Lou.

DOBBS: Let's be honest, Lisa. What's $11 billion among friends? Thank you very much. Lisa Sylvester from Washington.

This is your money. We'd like to hear from you on this issue, of course. Our poll tonight, the question, what should President Bush do when the transportation bill reaches his desk? Should he sign it? Should he veto it?

Cast your vote at We'll have the results at the end of tonight's broadcast.

China tonight says it will fight new U.S. quotas designed to limit the flood of cheap Chinese clothing into this country. China calls the U.S. quotas unfair and says it might protest its case to the World Trade Organization.

The White House says the new quotas are vital to saving jobs in this country. Critics, however, say they are simple too little and far too late.

Bill Tucker reports.


BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Job losses and factory closings are usually measured in years. These losses are measured in months. Since quotas were lifted on Chinese textile imports five months ago, 18 textile plants have closed in the United States and 16,600 jobs have been lost. The move to apply quotas to men's and boys' cotton T-shirts and underwear, mid-shirts, trousers, blouses and comb cotton yarn is welcome news to the industry. Critics say these actions should be the beginning of a drive to regulate China's access to our markets.

AUGGIE TANTILLO, AMERICAN MANUFACTURING TRADE ACTION COALITION: Failure to do this in an aggressive and consistent form is going to mean that this is little more than a temporary Band-Aid and we'll be right back here six months from now with the same problem.

TUCKER: In other words, we need a trade policy, not just a set of quick fixes on underwear and T-shirts.

The concerns raised by the textile industry go way beyond one industry. Other manufacturing groups also point out that the trading relationship pits private industry in the U.S. against state-owned industries in China, a government which fails to enforce agreements it signed on intellectual property protection and a government which so far is not revaluing its currency.

RICHARD D'AMATO, U.S.-CHINA COMMISSION: All of these are unfair practices. So it's not just a question of working against the state. That would be bad enough.

You are working against a state that also is operating unfairly against the rules that it has already signed. So, you know, we're working with two hands behind our back. That makes it important for the U.S. government to step up to the plate and address these problems with the Chinese government in a very aggressive way.

TUCKER: If the administration won't, there seems to be a growing will in Congress to do something.


TUCKER: There is bipartisan support in Congress for imposing tariffs in the form of the Schumer-Graham bill over in the Senate and the Hunter-Ryan bill on the House side, Lou. So unlike a lot of the bickering we're witnessing now, there is consensus on this issue in Congress.

DOBBS: And as you say, building consensus. Bill, thank you very much.

In a recent Judiciary Committee hearing, Congressman Lamar Smith said China is the biggest single source of counterfeit and pirated products worldwide. And that theft is all too evident for one American shoe company.

Eunice Yoon reports from southern China.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) EUNICE YOON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Can you spot the real New Balance store? Hard to tell. That's exactly what the U.S. athletic shoemaker is worried about.

The Boston-based firm is running into a problem that many multinational companies face when operating in China, what they say are copies of their trademarks and copyrighted goods. New Balance says its entire stories are being copied.

Lawyer Harley Luin represents New Balance in its fight against upstart Chinese brand New Barlun.

HARLEY LEWIN, GREENBERG TRAURIG: New Barland represent a quantum leap in the -- I probably should say gall factor or cheeky level of counterfeiters.

YOON: Like so many other companies, New Balance is investing heavily in China, lured by its cheap labor and huge market potential. But Lewin's investigators went undercover to show just how easily a customer could mistake New Barlun for New Balance.

New Balance has filed a suit against China's Tu Chi (ph), the alleged owner of New Barlun. Yet Tu Chi (ph) says it designs its own products and its licenses are legit. The firm says it's ditched the New Barlun brand.

Lewin's investigators filmed three New Barlun stores last week. They say the stores open and close so quickly that pinning down who owns them is almost impossible, even for the Chinese authorities.

WU YI, CHINESE VICE PREMIER (through translator): In our country, where the economic and technological development is low, we especially need the government, businesses and consumers to work hard together to change the current intellectual property rights situation.

YOON: But Lewin says concern for social order keeps a government from cracking down.

LEWIN: If you were the government and were to suddenly clamp down on counterfeiting, you would put an awful lot of people out of work.

YOON: New Balance hopes China's growing economy will encourage more consumers to opt for the real McCoy.

JOE PRESTON, VICE PRESIDENT, INTERNATIONAL, NEW BALANCE: I think the Chinese consumer is a little bit more savvy than some people give them credit for.

YOON: And being savvy by buying a genuine product rather than a knockoff is something all consumers can do.

Eunice Yoon, CNN, China.

(END VIDEOTAPE) DOBBS: Our quote of the day is on the subject of intellectual property theft in China. Ted Fishman is the author of "China Inc." He testified at the judicial hearing on piracy and said, "China's failure to police its intellectual property rules often looks less like ineffective government than a conscious policy to ship the highest value goods from other economies into the country. It is, in essence, the largest industrial subsidy in the world, and brilliantly it costs the Chinese nothing."

In other words, the Chinese are thieves and Americans are fools.

Coming up next here, another wave of deadly bombings in Iraq, and new doubts about whether Iraqi forces are ready to battle insurgents on their own. General David Grange will be with us.

And then the Reverend Jesse Jackson. He will also be here, just after visiting with Mexico's president, Vicente Fox. What President Fox had to say about his offensive comments about black Americans and more.

Stay with us.


DOBBS: Two American soldiers were killed in combat in Iraq today. One killed in an attack on a U.S. base in Ramadi. The second soldier was killed on a bomb attack in a convoy in southeast Baghdad. 1,627 of our troops have been killed in Iraq since the war began two years ago.

Another roadside bomb northeast of Baghdad today killed two Iraqi police officers. Two other people were wounded in the explosion, an Iraqi policeman and civilian.

New concerns tonight about the ability of Iraqi police and troops to fight insurgents without American help. The commander of the U.S. Central Command, General John Abizaid, this week declared he is disappointed with the progress in developing Iraqi police units capable of fighting insurgents.

At the same time, "The Washington Post" is reporting that only three of the Iraqi army's 81 battalions are capable of conducting independent operations. That report also says only one of the 26 Iraqi army brigade headquarters are combat-ready.

Joining me now, General David Grange.

General Grange, these are sobering assessments and have to be disappointing to everyone concerned.

BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: That's right, Lou. And it takes a while to change the culture of an organization. It's not just training people. It's getting them to train to a standard that's effective.

Now, the insurgents really are no better fighters than the Iraqi police and Iraqi military. But they have the advantage because they can hit when they want, and they usually have the information they need to do the strikes. And it's tough to counter, and it takes a while to train a counterterrorism, counterinsurgent force that's effective.

DOBBS: And the U.S. counterterrorism, counterinsurgency forces that are in Iraq working with the population there, the intelligence is obviously still woeful and is still not adequate to forestall what are now rising, not diminishing, bomb attacks against Iraqis and Americans.

GRANGE: Rising because right now it's having a tremendous effect on the morale and attitude of the units, the attitude of the people to support the government, to support the insurgency. And when you have, let's say, if it's true, the reports are true, that you have meetings going on in Syria to plan new offensive actions and car bombings, or improvised explosive devices along roads, a surge of these things, you have to nip it in the bud somewhere. Maybe in Syria. But they are coming from someplace.

DOBBS: The United States military already hard-pressed. Is it a fact within the region, whether one is talking about Syrian leaders or Iranian, that they are watching the drain on both the U.S. forces and the will of the U.S. government, at least in their own projections and assessment, that we have come up with a situation where we are limited in what we can actually -- in the ways in which we can actually extend the United States political will in that region?

GRANGE: Well, it's going to be tough for the political will, because it's a long -- it's going to take a long time to solve -- solve the situation. Counterinsurgencies last a long time. And that's hard to swallow when you want to get in there and get out.

But if the other forces aren't trained to standard yet, then the U.S. or someone has to do that. And you sure don't want to quit now. You want to win this thing. And if some things are happening, let's say supported by Syria, personally, I wouldn't let Syria get away with it.

DOBBS: What would you do?

GRANGE: Well, I would put more pressure on Syria than we have now.

DOBBS: Militarily?

GRANGE: I would use a lot of pressure. There's some behind-the- scenes pressure, but maybe you need a zone of separation that's partly into the country of Syria to stop some of this movement. Maybe 10 kilometers or so deep.

DOBBS: General David Grange, thanks for being with us.

GRANGE: My pleasure.

DOBBS: Coming up next here, Jesse Jackson and the leader of a group that fights for the rights of illegal aliens and others in this country. They just returned from meeting with Mexican President Vicente Fox. They are our guests here next.

Also ahead, the case for democracy. The author of the book President Bush recommends to all his closest advisers is our guest here tonight.

And Pat Buchanan tells us why he says the conservative movement in his country has, in his words, passed into history. A lot of liberals will be glad to hear that.

All of that and much more still ahead here.

Stay with us.


DOBBS: My guests tonight have just returned from meeting with Mexican President Vicente Fox. Reverend Jesse Jackson was invited to meet with President Fox after Fox made a comment about African- Americans that sparked outrage all across this country. Reverend Jackson traveled to Mexico with the head of an organization that fights for, among other things, illegal aliens in this country to have much the same rights and privileges as American citizens.

Joining me now from Atlanta, Reverend Jesse Jackson and Ann Marie Tallman. She is the president and general counsel of the Mexican- American Legal Defense and Education Fund MALDEF. Thank you both for being here


DOBBS: Jesse, did Vincente Fox apologize to you?

REV. JESSE JACKSON, RAINBOW PUSH COALITION: Well, he was very remorseful. He realized the impact, the damaging impact of his insensitive, offensive and damaging and divisive remarks. And so, while he did not use the word apology, certainly expressed a sense of regret and remorse.

I would think, however, Lou, that we cannot just stay there. We must deal with the impact of the policies between the U.S. and Mexico. I did not want the Mexicans to be used as pawns in this U.S. trade policy, and blacks to be scapegoats in the process. Because as we export jobs to Mexico, and China, and Indonesia and export capital, and import cheap product and cheap labor, it's really U.S. policy that must really be addressed.

DOBBS: I couldn't agree with you more, Reverend Jackson.

Ann Marie Tallman, what are your thoughts after you met with him? The president of Mexico refuse to apologize for these comments. What is your sense of things?

TALLMAN: Our sense of things is that it is a wonderful opportunity to reaffirm and renew our coalitions here in the United States. Our organizations focus on protecting the rights and promoting the rights of workers, the working poor, Latinos, African- Americans and all people who are interested in a fair and just America. So we think it was a wonderful opportunity for us to achieve that objective.

DOBBS: Well, this is a man who has, in point of fact, degraded his own people, aside from African-Americans in this country. But he degrades them with policies that requires them to flee his borders and cross into our country, to eliminate economic opportunity. To depress workers rights. And to do nothing for the environment at all, Ann Marie. What would you think could be done with such a man, such a leader?

TALLMAN: MALDEF's focus is on domestic policy here in the United States. We work every day in coalition to achieve important legislative changes like comprehensive immigration reform.

It will be important for all workers and to recognize the contributions of immigrants actually who provide a lot of productivity in our country. Three quarters of all undocumented immigrants actually pay Social Security tax. Over the next 50 years, $400 billion in present value will be provided and paid into our Social Security system by immigrants.

DOBBS: Over what period of time?

TALLMAN: Over the next 50 years.

DOBBS: Over 50 years.

TALLMAN: Which is a great way to help save our Social Security system.

DOBBS: Well, since you brought it up, Ann Marie let me just put another...

TALLMAN: More importantly, Lou, I think...

DOBBS: They cost $50 billion to provide Social Security services incarceration, depressed wages by $200 billion a year. Present value notwithstanding.

TALLMAN: No, that's not true.

DOBBS: Well, actually it is true. You may have a different perspective, but it's absolutely true.

TALLMAN: The president's economic report, what we know is that immigrants on average over their lifetime will contribute -- will contribute...

DOBBS: Whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm sorry. I'm confused. I though you were talking about illegal immigrants.

TALLMAN: Will contribute $1800 more in taxes than they will actually receive in benefits. And undocumented immigrants.

DOBBS: Let's clarify the terms, I thought you were talking about illegal immigrants. Because that's the only issue as far as I'm concerned.

TALLMAN: Well, in terms of undocumented immigrants we know they pay into the Social Security system.

JACKSON: Lou, the issue there seems to me there are 10 million undocumented workers. Somebody is hiring them and sending for them.

DOBBS: Oh, absolutely.

JACKSON: 5 million who are legal, but do not have citizenship status. So, they are a major factor in our economy. It's amusing, when I was working Caesar Chavez in Calexico, California and Washingtonville (ph) and those farm workers were organizing as a union to get (INAUDIBLE) to get health insurance, the big growers then sent for the workers from Mexico to come to undercut the organizing process.

DOBBS: I was there on what was called the wet line in the early '70s. I watched Caesar Chavez trying to form the United Farm Workers Union. I watched the green carders being stoned as they came across the borders. The Big Growers Association bringing in illegals, in point of fact, to break the UFW. But that has nothing to do with what is happening today?

JACKSON: You're putting more focus on those who are fleeing out of desperation and poverty. After all, Michela Dory (ph) is in some sense our creation, the NAFTA and CAFTA one-sided trade agreements. I mean, as we export capital and export jobs and import cheap product from China -- Wal-Mart, and import cheap labor, there's a guesswork of building the U.S. Congress even today.

So, I think if we're going -- it's not just a fox force (ph) -- this is the U.S. policy. Bringing cheap labor is really U.S. policy.

DOBBS: Well, it's not U.S. policy. It's an abdication on the part of this administration, this government, this Congress, and both parties to enforce immigration laws. And I think one of the most callous disregards for our national security in disregarding our border security. Would you both agree with that? Ann Marie?

TALLMAN: Comprehensive immigration reform will be the balance between securing our borders, national security, recognizing the contribution of immigrants. There's 1.75 million job deficit in the prime working ages of 24 to 34 years in this country without immigration. We need immigrants.

DOBBS: You keep saying immigration. Ann Marie, let me say, you haven't been on the broadcast before. I hope you will come back. On this broadcast we really -- we are enthusiastic for immigration. We cherish immigration as a great tradition of this country. The issue is illegal immigration, illegal. TALLMAN: That's why comprehensive immigration reform will ensure that there's a legal mechanism for those undocumented people that live in this country today. As Reverend Jackson had indicated, there are 10 million undocumented people who are contributing, who are paying taxes, who are paying Social Security taxes, who are paying state taxes.

DOBBS: Ann Marie, if you really believe that illegal aliens being hired at exploited wage levels by exploitive employers in this country are providing a broad economic benefit, then you are missing the point that the benefit they are providing is for those employers, not for the taxpayers, not for U.S. citizen, whether Hispanic or any other race. Reverend Jackson let me ask you this.

JACKSON: We are exporting middle class jobs and exporting capital.

DOBBS: Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's -- the foundation of what we're talking about. But at the same time, I'm sure you are both familiar with the PEW Hispanic Center study showing that those illegal aliens, in point of fact, although they didn't break them out, but that's the bulk of immigration in this country, that is illegal immigration, the jobs that are being taken are those of poor Hispanics.

So we're creating a royaling (ph) at the lowest wage levels in our society. And the fact that you met with Mexican President Fox, Reverend Jackson, what did he say about his desire to end that? And to build a better life for his people so we can focus on American citizens?

JACKSON: As long as our government policy exports our jobs and exports capital and then makes provisions to send for the worker. In fact, we keep saying illegal immigration. But when I look at 10 million undocumented workers and 5 million legal but who are not yet citizens. 15 million didn't come across the river one night. That is in fact U.S. policy.

What do we call exporting our own jobs to meet Michela Dory (ph). I mean, if NAFTA and CAFTA has dignity. Trading at the Wal-Mart jobs from China has dignity, the corporate thieves are really undercutting the American economy. That is who is taking the middle class in our country.

You know, the good side of this is on the one hand you have on one day, Villaraigosa wins the mayor's position in L.A, because blacks and browns come together and don't fight each other. In the same -- two days later, Dominique Ridder (ph), a 15-year-old kid...

DOBBS: I've got to be honest with you, Jesse. As a white fellow, I'm starting to feel a little left out. You know, we have poor white people, we've got poor blacks, we've got poor Hispanics. Why should this be so ethnocentric?

JACKSON: And the reason they are poor, because we are not reinvesting in the American company. DOBBS: There you go.

JACKSON: The fact is, there are more poor whites than there are blacks and browns. In Appalachian, a coal miner dies every six hour from black lung disease. And so the idea is that we're searching for cheap labor. We're sending for labor to bring it here or take it out, jobs there. We need a real reinvest in America campaign.

DOBBS: I couldn't agree with you more. Invest in America. How about we call it invest in Americans.

TALLMAN: Absolutely. That's what comprehensive reform does.

DOBBS: We thank you for being here. Both of you please come back soon. I know you have more to say. And we're out of time. Please come back in the next week or so. We'll talk some more.

JACKSON: Thank you.

DOBBS: Coming up, the case for democracy. The book President Bush says is inspired in the war on terror and his efforts to Democratize the Middle East. The author of the book is our guest next.

And then, one of the nation's most high profile conservatives says, conservatism has grown past his prime, now a part of history. Pat Buchanan has joins us next. Stay with us.


DOBBS: My next guest has been described as President Bush's favorite author. Natan Sharansky has written a book called "The Case for Democracy: The Power of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny and Terror." President Bush has been talking about the book for months and handing it to his top advisers and friends. He calls it inspiration. Natan Sharansky is a former Soviet dissident. He was in prison for nine years. He served in Israel's government, and just this month resigned from the Israeli cabinet, protesting the planned withdrawal from Gaza.

Joining us tonight from Washington, D.C. Good to have you with us.


DOBBS: To turn out to be the president's favorite author gives you a remarkable influence. You've talked with the president, obviously. What is it in your judgment, in your thinking is so compelling? For the president?

SHARANSKY: Well, president told me after he read my book that all his life he believed that freedom is not an American invention. It's gift of God to the mankind. And here, he sees how I summarized his views and how I insist that freedom is good for everybody, that every people deserve freedom, and the free world has a lot to do to promote this freedom. That's exactly the main line of the policy of American president. DOBBS: You talk in rather clear terms. You look at the world as those who are free, those who are oppressive, and some rather muddled thinking in between that you might call the realpolitik, or the pragmatist. Is it your sense that the United States, given its vast economic and political power and military power, is necessarily -- it's definitely freedom is not an American invention. It is in -- the Greeks did pretty well with it, too, a few centuries ago.

The fact of the matter is, the United States in your judgment, does it have a responsibility to spread democracy and freedom? Do you see it as an active responsibility?

SHARANSKY: No, United States government has a responsibility to bring peace and security to its own people. And security of Americans today depends on the level of freedom of the other people. You didn't succeed to build friends between Afghanistan and Manhattan, but you realize that free, democratic Afghanistan, exactly as free, democratic Iraq, will not be a threat to America. So pursuing democracy, it's not idealistic policy. It's very pragmatic policy.

DOBBS: Looking at the pragmatism of it all. The Middle East that you know and that exists, do you believe that democracy is possible, democratization is possible in states such as Saudi Arabia and Syria and Iran?

SHARANSKY: I believe that all the people in the world, Russians and Japanese and Americans, and Muslims and Saudis and Palestinians, when given the real choice to live in fear or to live in freedom, will choose to live in freedom.

But when the free world, under the pretext not to impose democracy on people, is imposing tyranny by supporting tyrants, by supporting dictators, then really these people have a very difficult challenge. The moment President Bush started speaking to dissidents, you would see the results. You see the results in Lebanon. You see the results in Egypt. I'm sure you will see results in many other Arab countries.

DOBBS: Natan Sharansky, we thank you for being here. We look forward to you coming back soon. Thank you.

SHARANSKY: Thank you.

DOBBS: A reminder now to vote in our poll tonight. What should President Bush do when the transportation bill reaches his desk? Should he sign it? Should he veto it? Cast your vote at We'll have the results in just a few minutes.

Coming up at the top of the hour here, none other than Anderson Cooper with "360." Anderson joins us now -- Anderson.

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Lou, thanks very much. Yeah, in about 14 minutes from now, a botched bank robbery. A would-be thief takes hostages and heads for the airport. We'll have the latest, and talk with a former bank robber about why so many banks are getting hit these days. Also ahead tonight, a world-famous athlete turned politician accused of sparking anti-American riots. I'll talk to him about what he said, and why he said it.

Also, we take you inside the shadowy world of cock fighting in America. It's a multimillion dollar business. But is it fair game or animal cruelty? We take you inside the ring.

That and more at the top of the hour, Lou.

DOBBS: Thanks, Anderson.

Coming up next here -- why Pat Buchanan says the Republican Party will be at war in the 2008 presidential election. Pat Buchanan is our guest next. Stay with us.


DOBBS: I don't think I need to tell you who Pat Buchanan is. He says, however, that he believes the conservative movement has passed into history. Pat Buchanan says conservatism, as he puts it, is at war with itself, over foreign policy, over deficit hawks versus supply-siders. He says that war will divide the Republican Party in the 2008 presidential elections. Pat Buchanan joins me tonight from Washington. Pat, good to have you here.

PAT BUCHANAN, "WHERE THE RIGHT WENT WRONG": Well, thank you very much, Lou.

DOBBS: Strong words, not unexpectedly, from you on any subject, but strong words to say the kind -- conservatism is passing into history. The fact is, we've people walking about saying they are evangelical Christians and conservatives and fiscal conservatives, but they are wrong?

BUCHANAN: Everybody in the Republican party says he's a conservative these days. They're all conservatives, but basically, it is a Rockefeller Republican party in Washington, D.C. If you're talking about spending and deficits, it's a big-government party. There's no question about that.

The war in the Republican party, however, is going to come over, mainly, over three issues, I think. One of them is illegal immigration, where the president is out of touch with the grass roots of the country. Democrats, Republicans, populists, conservatives, far out of touch. The other is the trade issue, the $700 billion trade deficit last year -- 160 billion with China. As a result, I think the president could lose CAFTA. That's the Central American Free Trade Agreement.

DOBBS: If he has not already lost it.

BUCHANAN: If he has not already lost it. And I -- as you know, I fought that back in the '90s, NAFTA, and Clinton, he brought Newt Gingrich and Bob Dole along, built the WTO. But, now, we're winning this battle. And the third issue is going to be foreign policy. I think the empire, the American empire abroad, is the first thing that is going to go as these $400 billion budget deficits explode when the baby boomers retire. Something's got to give. I think the empire comes home, and if you got someone running in 2008, Lou, I think someone could get in the finals in the Republican primary by saying, defend America's borders, stop exporting our jobs, bring the troops home.

DOBBS: Well, those sound like wonderful, wonderful ideas to me, I will tell you. At the same time, the fact is that by 2008 we'll be way -- well on our way to a $1 trillion trade deficit. We'll be -- our trade debt will be rising to something in the order of $6 trillion by 2008. The problems are immense. The public education system in this country is under assault. The middle class is under assault, and you say conservatives are simply passing into history.

What is the contest between, because I -- Democrats I talk with say they don't believe this is their party, because they're not talking about protecting worker rights or working for the working man and woman in this country. Republicans say this Republican party isn't worried about deficits. They are not focusing on traditional American values. Where the heck are the parties?

BUCHANAN: Here's -- here's what is going to be needed. You've got to have someone, I think, run for president of the United States who is going to say, look, I'm going to run for one term. We all know this budget is out of control. We got 16 percent of GDP in taxes, 20 percent of GDP in spending. Every major program's exploding. We're going to have to deal with that. You are going to have to have, I think, a program putting tariffs of about 20 percent on foreign manufactured goods coming into the country. Take all the revenue. Cut the taxes on manufacturing in the United States of America.

As for the president, putting these troops all over the world -- Lou, we can't afford it when these budget deficits hit. I think people are going to say, look, defend our own country first.

DOBBS: Pat Buchanan, we appreciate you being here. Look forward to talking to you again soon. Thank you, sir.

BUCHANAN: Thank you, Lou.

DOBBS: Pat Buchanan.

Still ahead, we'll have the results of tonight's poll and a preview of what is ahead here tomorrow. Please stay with us.


DOBBS: Taking a look at some of your thoughts now.

Susan in Hockley, Texas, wrote to say, "What I think of President Fox is not printable. Someone needs to make it clear: this is not the U.S. of Mexico. I am quite tired of him telling us what we should or should not be doing, he should be taking care of his own people." Chris in New Mexico, "I think that Mr. Fox and his pro-illegal immigrant allies need to stop calling those who are against illegal immigrants racist. The only racist person is Mr. Fox."

S. Chan in Carson, California: "If the influx of illegals crossing the border stops and deportations are enforced, it will send Mexico into a recession."

And many of you wrote in about the arrest of notorious Cuban exile leader Luis Posadas Carriles in Miami.

Rick in Hudson, North Carolina, said, "I think Mexico should apologize for allowing a known terrorist into our country, but I also thing President Bush should apologize for having done nothing to secure our borders."

We love hearing from you. Send us your thoughts at Each of you whose e-mail is read here receives copy of my book "Exporting America." And if you want to receive our email newsletter, sign up at

We'll be right back. We'll tell you what is ahead tomorrow. Stay with us.


DOBBS: The results of tonight's poll: 41 percent of you say President Bush should sign the transportation bill, 59 percent of you say he should veto it. That would, as we pointed out, be a first.

Thanks for being with us tonight. Please join us here tomorrow. The president of the National Black Farmers' Association joins us with his reaction to President Vicente Fox's offensive remarks about black Americans.

And in "Heroes" our weekly salute to the men and women who serve this nation in uniform, a 20-year veteran of the Marine Corps who survived gunshot wounds in Falluja and shielded another wounded Marine from a grenade. We'll have his story of heroism and bravery.

And, three of the country's very best political journalist join us to talk about what has been a critical week in American politics. They will have a view about what's next in the filibuster fight, but then, doesn't everyone. Please join us. For all of us here, goodnight from New York. "ANDERSON COOPER 360" starts right now.



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