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Nancy Grace

Larry King`s Testimony Thrown Out By Judge In Jackson Trial; Search Continues For Missing Idaho Children

Aired May 19, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR, NANCY GRACE: Tonight, still no break in an Idaho triple homicide. An Amber Alert still in effect tonight for an eight-year-old and nine-year-old taken from the home in which their family was killed. And tonight, police clear and release Rob Roy Lutner, a person of interest. He was brought in for police questioning in the brutal Idaho triple murder.
And a 16-year-old boy admits to shooting and killing his parents. Tonight police want to know, and so do I, did 16-year-old Adam Sapikowski murder both his mom and dad and then go to the high school prom?

And it is day 56 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Larry King shows up to testify.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight. We go live to California and the Michael Jackson trial. The judge turns Larry King away from the witness stand.

And, a North Carolina 16-year-old confesses to gunning down his parents in their exclusive Chapel Hill home, the same weekend he partied down at the high school prom.

But first, tonight, no leads in the Idaho triple murder and a desperate search for eight and nine-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene. Tonight, their father begging for them to come home. A man brought in for questioning released tonight, leaving law enforcement back at square one. With us tonight in Coeur D`alene, Idaho, Kootenai County Sheriff Captain Ben Wolfinger, in L.A., Defense Attorney Debra Opri, in Denver, Defense Attorney Lisa Wayne, in Atlanta, Veteran Prosecutor Eleanor Dixon, in New York, Forensic Psychiatrist Dr. Michael Wellner. But first, let`s go to CNN Correspondent Alina Cho.

Welcome, Alina. Please, bring us up to date, friend.

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT, NANCY GRACE: Well, here`s the very latest, Nancy.

Of course the two children, nine-year-old Dylan and eight-year-old sister Shasta Groene are still missing at this hour. An Amber Alert, as you know, still in effect. And the search continues. Today they brought out the divers to search area ponds and lakes but so far nothing.

And remember, this is a two-pronged investigation, as you well know, Nancy. This is also a triple murder scene. The children`s mother, 13- year-old brother, and apparent boyfriend of the mother were found dead Monday night and so far no leads on that. An FBI forensics team is on the scene combing through and searching for evidence. And all of that evidence, we are told, is being sent to the best crime lab in the nation, as you know, in Quantico, Virginia.

Nancy.

GRACE: Very quickly to Captain Ben Wolfinger. Do we have a cause of death? Can you announce it?

BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF CAPTAIN: Yes, Nancy. The coroner released the cause of death just a few hours ago. All three victims were killed by blunt force trauma to the head.

GRACE: Has the coroner completed the autopsies on all three victims?

WOLFINGER: Yes. The final autopsy was completed about noon today.

GRACE: Back to Alina Cho.

Alina, you said that divers are now searching local ponds. Now, what has led police to local ponds, if anything?

CHO: Well, to be honest, they have been fanning out over the area into the wooded area. As you might be able to see behind me, some 400 acres. They`ve searched what they`re calling little tree forts, places where they believe that the children might be hiding. But to no avail. And so today they expanded that search and they decided to bring in the divers and, unfortunately, no luck so far. Captain Wolfinger has said they are searching for evidence and, as he says, God forbid, the bodies of the children.

GRACE: Well, my question to you, Captain, is, you`ve brought in cadaver dogs, correct? Has anything led you to these local ponds or did you just do that as a precaution?

WOLFINGER: Nancy, we just did that as a precaution. This area is crisscrossed with small streams, creeks and these little ponds. And they`re all around the area around the home itself within that 40 acre search area. We couldn`t do them adequately without bringing divers in.

GRACE: Let`s talk about Robert Roy Lutner for a moment. Captain, you really couldn`t comment any earlier but it seemed to me if you guys were not searching his car or his home for possible DNA or fiber evidence, maybe a murder weapon, then he was not the suspect. What did you hope to gain from this guy, Rob Roy Lutner?

WOLFINGER: Well, Nancy, he never was a suspect. He was only a person of interest at that point. We knew he had been in the home Sunday evening. They interviewed Mr. Lutner for approximately seven hours last night. And at the end of it, he was happy to take a lie detector test to prove his truthfulness. He`s passed that test with no problems. So the detectives, based upon the lengthy interview and the polygraph test, are comfortable that Mr. Lutner has nothing to do with the disappearance of the children or the homicides.

CHO: And, Captain, actually what I found most interesting about that, Nancy, was when Captain Wolfinger was speaking earlier, he said that one of the most interesting things - there was no real information gleaned in terms of the investigation. He did mention that there was a gathering, as I know you`ve heard, Nancy, on Sunday night at the home. And so there are several people out there who were at that gathering who have not yet contacted police. And, of course, as they`re trying to lift fingerprints and other evidence, they want these people to please, please call the tip line so that they can be cleared of any wrongdoing. Because certainly, at some point, once they have the fingerprints, they will be seeking these people out.

GRACE: Alina, what do you mean by a gathering?

CHO: They`re in the home. They are searching for evidence. I know at one point that my colleague, Sean Callebs, was saying that they were trying to do the delicate work of trying to actually lift the fingerprints from the body. Now Captain Wolfinger can speak a little more clearly about whether that actually has been done. But, as you very well know, Nancy, very delicate work and they`re doing that painstakingly. I`m told that they will be at the home for the next half day or full day tomorrow. So we shall see what happens.

GRACE: Very quickly out to Debra Opri.

Debra, I don`t know about you, but as a prosecutor for so many years, it always impressed me greatly when a defendant, a suspect, a person of interest, volunteered to take a police authorized lie detector test. That means a lot to me.

DEBRA OPRI, L.A. DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. It may mean a lot to you but the bottom line is, he was pressured. I`m sure he did it so willingly because he had nothing to hide. But as a criminal defense attorney, I`m going to tell you you`re wrong because there are many leads in this case that are just not being told to the media. And what they`re . . .

GRACE: Wait. I was talking about a polygraph. That`s the specific question I asked you. Please answer.

OPRI: Yes, and I said, big deal, so he gave a polygraph. I`m talking about Lutner proved more than just a coming to a polygraph test. He gave so many leads in this case that over the next course of three or four days, a lot more people are going to be coming in on the net.

And one other thing, Nancy, I hate to say this, but if these kids ran away from a crime scene or happened upon the crime scene in the course of a barbecue, they`ve either been dumped or discarded or they`re running. And it`s sickening and it`s hard to take but the police are scanning with the understanding they just may be victims as well.

GRACE: Eleanor Dixon, back to the polygraph issue. Thoughts?

ELEANOR DIXON, VETERAN PROSECUTOR: Well, I think -- I agree with you, Nancy, it`s always important to us if the defendant will agree to take a stipulated polygraph. And by stipulated I mean the defendant and also the state have agreed to use those results in court. So it kind of cuts both ways.

GRACE: It`s highly significant when someone takes a state authorized polygraph. They volunteer to do it. And they pass it.

Back to the issue regarding fingerprinting bodies. You know, very, very difficult to do, Lisa Wayne. Lisa, have you ever had a case, ever, where you got prints of a body?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. It`s very difficult to do, Nancy, like you said. And I mean to lift those prints and to get a good print, particularly in this day and age when their fingerprints are being scrutinized so much by both sides, frankly, as to whether or not they have any real forensic value. You know, that`s a tough one and I don`t think there`s probably going to be very much telling on those bodies.

GRACE: I think you`re right and I hate it. Today, the father of these two little children, eight and nine-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene, begged for their return.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE GROENE, FATHER OF MISSING CHILDREN: I`d like to address my children`s abductors or abductor. Please, please release my children safely. They had nothing to do with any of this. Release them in a safe area where law enforcement can find them. Call the help line. Let them know where they can be found. Please. We need the safe return of those children. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: and remember, this is a man that`s lost his 13-year-old boy. There was a 13-year-old murder victim in the house with the mom, Brenda, and the boyfriend.

Back to Alina Cho.

Alina, Lutner was at the residence on Sunday. Was it a barbecue? How many people were there? And why is it so difficult to find these people? What`s the big secret? It`s a small town. Who was there and why aren`t they coming forward?

CHO: I know you would think, right, Nancy? In fact, I asked the captain that earlier, you know, how many people exactly? What are we talking about? He characterized it as a traditional sort of Sunday afternoon barbecue. He wasn`t able to tell me how many people were there. And you would think certainly that these people would come forward by now at least to say, listen, I was there and nothing happened while I was there but that has not been the case so far.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you something, Captain, for an innocent barbecue, I don`t know what the hesitation is for people to come forward. You know, it could really help establish a time line.

Captain, what is the exact, as best as you can tell us, time of death of Brenda, the son, and the boyfriend?

WOLFINGER: Well, we don`t have the time of death, at least here at the media center. The coroner issued his report today and did not include time of death in that public press release. He may have shared that with the investigators and I imagine he will. But we don`t have it out here at the media center.

GRACE: Now, Captain, that would be very significant to find the time of death. You could narrow down so much information. That`s why this barbecue is very important. We need to know when the last person left the barbecue, what was going on at that time, and then you can kind of back time the time of death.

WOLFINGER: Well, certainly. And that`s why the investigators would have time of death and those people trying to find those children, as far as operating that part of the investigation. But it`s not an important element for me to have here at the media center.

GRACE: We are live in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho. With us, CNN Correspondent Alina Cho and Captain Ben Wolfinger, the Kootenai County Sheriff. We`ll all be right back. Please stay with us.

Elizabeth, can we go out with a shot of the children?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: Why would (INAUDIBLE) kill three people and take two children? Does that give us hope for the children? You bet it does. You know, and that`s all we have to go on at this point is hope. Without any solid leads, you know, we`re going on hope and those prayers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: We need anybody who was at that house on Sunday to contact the sheriff`s office through the tip line and identify themselves. We`re gathering every fingerprint in that house that we can find. We have to eliminate those people who were legitimately here at the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s the Kootenai County Sheriff Ben Wolfinger.

And tonight the search is desperate for eight and nine-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene. Take a look at these kids. Their entire family basically has been wiped out. They were apparently taken from that home. They were spared as far as we know. But the hours are passing.

Joining us there at the scene in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho, is CNN Correspondent Alina Cho. Also with us, Captain Ben Wolfinger.

Back to Alina Cho.

I know the captain is not releasing some information. Alina, do we have any idea -- and I find this very significant Alina, what the bodies were bound with?

CHO: That is the question right now. A very good question, Nancy. But so far my esteemed Captain Wolfinger, who is sitting next to me, has not yet told us any details about that. As you know, as you very well know, yesterday we had heard that the victims were bound. There was a lot of blood at the scene. And they were calling it a triple homicide because there was some thought that it might have been a murder/suicide.

Today we did hear, as you know, from the coroner`s office that it was a blunt trauma as the cause of death. And certainly we are trying to still glean some more details from that. And CNN I know is working feverishly to get that coroner`s report, Nancy.

GRACE: Captain Wolfinger, a question to you.

Can you tell us what the bodies were bound with?

WOLFINGER: No, we can`t, Nancy. That`s one of those details that the investigators are keeping close to the vest at this time.

GRACE: Eleanor Dixon, it would be highly significant if we knew, agree or disagree?

DIXON: Well, I agree because it might be something that the person brought with them. Perhaps their own rope. Something like that. Or he may have just grabbed the telephone cord off the wall or an extension cord, which would show a little less planning but wanting to subdue the victims in this case. So I think it is important.

GRACE: Highly important because Dr. Weller, who is with us, forensic psychiatrist, if there was a crime of anger and the perpetrator killed, say, the boyfriend, who is pictured right here, with something there then or got in an argument with him, tied him up with a phone cord or a curtain tie, that would suggest this was not premeditated. If, however, they came into the home with twine or rope or some other substance to use as a tie, that would be very significant, Doctor.

DOCTOR MICHAEL WELLNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Sure. I think we have to remember that three people were found tied. And you have to ask yourself, how many people does it take to restrain three people? We can`t be surprised if as the investigation unfolds, we find out that more than one person was involved in carrying out this crime. And that the missing children have everything to do with why the victims were restrained, perhaps to wait for others to arrive.

So there`s so many different possibilities, including the possibility that the children may be in shock. Just sort of wandering around, having happened upon a brutal and bloody and traumatic scene.

GRACE: Dr. Wellner, I don`t -- they have had out scent hogs, hound dogs, blood hounds. They`ve had out cadaver dogs. They`ve combed the area. Am I right, Captain Wolfinger, these kids have not wandered down the garden path. They would have been found by now. And Captain, while I`ve got you, is it true that you drained a septic tank today?

WOLFINGER: Actually yesterday, Nancy. There was a septic pond near the house. And we drained that. We had a truck come in and pump that dry just to check it, just to verify if anything was in there and we found nothing.

GRACE: But what would you hope to find in there? I mean if it was a blunt trauma, how could that end up in the septic tank?

WOLFINGER: Well, it`s an open tank area. Unfortunately, it`s open and it`s just fenced off. So we didn`t know if, you know, God forbid, we`d find the children in there . . .

GRACE: I understand.

WOLFINGER: Or a tool, a weapon, or anything like that.

GRACE: I understand. I completely understand now.

Let me go back to Alina Cho.

But Alina, first, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANCE GROENE, SON OF SLAIN WOMAN: I believe that if they`re together and somebody did take them, I mean, if -- it would have had to have been somebody that would have known them. I mean, they`ve always been taught, you don`t talk to strangers. They never left the yard. I mean, I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Alina Cho, the speculation there must be running rampant. I mean, we can deduce a lot tonight. But the reality is, these three dead, the children either spared or taken away to be killed. We need that time line. And my next question to you is regarding people of interest. Lutner, released. Anyone else on the horizon, Alina, or are we back at square one tonight?

CHO: Well, you know, it`s interesting because this was a point that I wanted to bring up earlier, Nancy. When I spoke with the captain earlier today during the news conference, I asked him, listen, you know, how much hope is there that these children are still alive? You know, you would think that if a killer or killers would come into the home, why not kill all five family members? Why only kill three and take two? And when I asked him that, he said, does that give us more hope? And he said, you bet it does. And so no one here in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho, or the surrounding areas are giving up hope that these children are still alive. Of course, you want to say you expect the worst and hope for the best but certainly I think that people are a little more optimistic than that tonight.

GRACE: We are staying with the story. We are live in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho, tonight. Two children that you`re seeing right now, this little girl, eight-year-old Shasta, this little boy, nine-year-old Dylan Groene, missing. Their mom, dead tonight. Their 13-year-old brother, dead. And they are gone.

Very quickly to trial tracking tonight. Six people taken hostage in what the FBI calls one of the most unusual bank robberies in history. After robbing a Kansas bank, catch this, a 44 -year-old Wichita man ordered all of the captives to strip down to their underwear. Now that`s an interesting trip to the bank. And then he took them to the airport in what we think was a get-away attempt. Well, police shot him at the scene and, of course, flew him to the hospital. He`s alive, in critical condition. No hostages harmed. The suspect now faces federal bank robbery charges.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF LANZA, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: He had them chained up, which he had brought a chain with him in a backpack into the bank. So he chained them together, walked them out to the minivan. And also he put flex-cuffs or plastic handcuffs on some of the hostages and then walked them into a minivan which belonged to one of the tellers of the bank.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(20:24:00)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: Our ultimate goal is to find the children. And we`re going to keep processing this scene because maybe we get that one piece of evidence that leads us to those children. That`s our ultimate goal. We can process crime scenes any day but our goal is to get those children back here to their remaining family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back.

Straight out of Coeur D`Alene and Captain Ben Wolfinger.

Captain, will a reward be announced tomorrow?

WOLFINGER: Well, we think so, Nancy. It`s in the works and we believe it will be announced tomorrow.

GRACE: Captain, what is next?

WOLFINGER: Well, next, they`re going to finish processing this crime scene. The investigators are working 16-plus hour days, interviewing people, processing evidence. And it`s just -- and now we just need help from people like you, Nancy, to get the word out and get these children`s picture out there, keep it out there, so someone somewhere can find these children and get them home.

GRACE: Captain, I`m so glad to hear you have a plan of action because, I mean, you`ve tried so many different things. I just don`t want your people to start losing hope.

Very quickly, back to Alina Cho.

Alina, now that we know that the cause of death is blunt trauma, when you add that to the knowledge that there was an incredible amount of blood at the scene, it is also suggestive of a rage killing. I mean, think about it. How many times would you have to hit these people to kill them and bring out -- and have that much blood. I originally thought it was a stabbing or a shooting death. Now that I know it`s a blunt trauma, I mean, someone was furious, beating these people.

CHO: You`re right. And you are absolutely right, Nancy, it is extraordinary when you consider that you`ve been hearing for the past 24, 48 hours, lots of blood, lots of blood, lots of blood at the scene and then you hear a blunt force trauma as the cause of death. It is a bit shocking, a bit surprising. But the truth is, is that the captain -- actually the sheriff of Kootenai County here, Rocky Watson, after seeing the crime scene, said within the past 24 hours that the killer or killers definitely were on a mission and that is a quote. As for a motive, Nancy, no one here is elaborating on that. But certainly, as I mention, the sheriff here saying that the killers were on a mission.

GRACE: Well, I agree. Captain, I mean, it seems very deliberate to go in and bind the people, methodically kill them in this awful manner, blunt trauma, a beating death of three people.

Captain Ben Wolfinger, please don`t give up, sir.

Alina Cho, thank you.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Here he comes, the soldier of the courtroom. Mark Geragos headed back to court tomorrow. Still claiming he doesn`t have to answer questions on cross exam. Although he sang like a bird on direct.

I wonder if Melville`s going to take away his sunglasses and cell phone. That`s a whole other legal issue. It is day 56 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial tonight, in Santa Maria, California, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, I can`t believe Melville turned Larry King away. What was he thinking? The man`s lost his mind.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, I don`t know what he was thinking, but I have to tell you it was very, very dramatic. As you mentioned, the day started off with talk show host Larry King taking the stand outside of the jury`s presence and saying that attorney Larry Feldman, who was associated with the accuser`s mother, told him that that mom was a quote-unquote "wacko out for money."

Now, that could have been very damaging to the prosecution`s case, but they never got a chance to hear it because the judge ruled that Larry King`s testimony was not admissible and so he went away. And the day ended with an absolute dramatic 19-minute video played by the defense of Neverland in all its manicured glory, complete with among many other things many statues of children at play and portraits of Michael Jackson leading children by the hand, something that prosecutors called a propaganda film.

GRACE: You know, I don`t know if in a child molestation case it`s so great to have photos of the defendant leading children by the hand. Now, joining us is the Jackson family attorney, Debra Opri, but before we go to Debra, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Debra Opri, will Jackson take the stand?

OPRI: I think he will. He will. He will. He will.

GRACE: Will he take the stand?

OPRI: I`m telling you, in my opinion, he will. I`ve said it from day one when everybody else laughed at me, he would testify. He has the story to tell.

He would testify.

Testify.

Testify.

I`m telling you.

Testify.

He will.

Testify.

In my opinion, he will.

GRACE: Will he take the stand?

OPRI: He will.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Debra, will he take the stand?

OPRI: He already has. Ha ha ha!

GRACE: In other words, no.

OPRI: He already has. They played the video.

GRACE: You just can`t admit it, the man is not going to take the stand and submit himself to cross.

OPRI: Listen, are you going to give me -- are you going to give me 15 seconds?

GRACE: Fifteen, you`re on.

OPRI: Let me explain. Michael Jackson, in my opinion, was going to take the stand before the court ordered that the defense can put the videos in. In my opinion, once you get those videos in, testimony without the threat of cross examination, does Michael need to testify anymore? Not in my opinion. Will he take the stand? If he does now, I don`t know what purpose Mesereau would want to serve.

GRACE: Eleanor Dixon, from the day one you and I said, no way. First of all, Jackson shows up in his pajamas. Now, that makes the spokesperson Ramon Bain really mad when I point that out. But normally people don`t come to court in their pajamas. He shows up in his pajamas, he gets sick and has to go throw up, he starts crying in court. Long story short, that`s not the kind of guy you want to subject to cross examination as a defense lawyer.

ELEANOR DIXON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I wouldn`t think so, and as a prosecutor, I would love it if he took the stand, because he would be so much fun to cross examine, especially with that little high pitched voice that he has. But it may actually hurt the defense.

GRACE: Even though he`s got the other voice too.

DIXON: Well yes.

GRACE: The deep voice.

DIXON: For grown-ups. But, it may actually help the prosecution, because in the back of their minds is jurors may be thinking, why hasn`t he said anything?

GRACE: You know, she`s right, Lisa Wayne, which is contrary to the law and the jury charge to the jury. The judge specifically says, you are not, you will not, hold it against the defendant if exercises his right to remain silent. And in the back of their minds they`re saying, why is he remaining silent? Right?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They may do that, but frankly, I think Mesereau talked about it on jury selection and the bottom line is they want to hear two sighs of the story. A good defense lawyer says, you`ll hear two sides. The first side is, he said he didn`t do it, it pled not guilty. Now you get to hear the other side, that`s the accusation. And frankly, I think him not taking the stand sends a message it`s a weak case. They haven`t proved this case beyond a reasonable doubt. He doesn`t need to take the stand and Mesereau just has to hit up on the law in closing argument and it`s a done deal, as far as I`m concerned.

GRACE: Back to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice."

Jane, I am not surprised, actually, that the judge told Larry King he could not testify, regarding this issue, because it was total and complete hearsay. Larry Feldman, the attorney, was supposed to have told Larry the boy what`s mom was out for money. That`s quite a bit of hearsay. So I`m not surprised. What about Jay Leno?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jay Leno is a different matter because he, according to our sources, and let`s hear what he actually says when he takes the stand on Tuesday -- said that the accuser called him on the phone and that he could hear the accuser`s mother in the background kind of egging him on, and that Jay Leno purportedly became suspicious of this and even contacted authorities. So, that is his direct experience on the phone, supposedly with this accuser. And of course, they have a reputation and a witness testified to this today, that they kind of were always talking about being in the poorhouse and needing everything under the sun and collecting money from all sorts of different people at the same time...

GRACE: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Telling each one of them they were broke...

GRACE: Jane, I know you`re a big star now, but have you ever been broke?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. In fact, I could be broke right now, Nancy.

GRACE: You know what? I`ve been broke. But good. Talk about law school and undergraduate student loans, are you kidding me? So, when people are really broke, they do tend to talk about it all the time. They don`t know where their next apartment payment is coming from. Any -- far from broke, Jay Leno, take a listen to this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, "TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": Hey Kevin, you know what Michael Jackson calls the Boy Scout uniforms?

KEVIN EUBANKS, MUSIC DIRECTOR: What`s that?

LENO: Lingerie. But enough -- all right, stop, stop that. Stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Jay Leno, "Tonight Show" host, now named as a defense witness for Michael Jackson. And Dr. Michael Wellner is with us, forensic psychologist. All these stars are basically talking about the mom being out for money. Correct me, what does that have to do with the boy`s credibility as to whether he was molested?

MICHAEL WELLNER, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s all about leveraging to create reasonable doubt and that`s a hurdle that, in some cases, it may seem to be a high hurdle, but I don`t think it`s going to be a very big hurdle in this case, especially with some of the other testimony that`s come forward in recent days from children who say they`ve had this very friendly, very close relationship with Michael Jackson in which no molestation was involved. It`s just another brick in the wall, another log on the fire, and so it creates momentum -- momentum towards reasonable doubt.

GRACE: Well, you know, Eleanor Dixon, I find it very difficult to believe that a successful defense in child molestation is, yeah, I slept with hundreds of kids, but I didn`t molest these three.

DIXON: That`s -- I wouldn`t think that would be a successful defense. You`re going to deny, deny, and do what they`re also doing, blame the victim, and point out all the problems the victim and the victim`s family have, as opposed to saying, hey, I`m a good person, I sleep with other little children and it`s all good. And to me...

GRACE: It`s all good.

DIXON: Well, the prosecution can turn that around and say, hey, come on, how many unrelated people do you sleep with in your bed at night?

GRACE: Take a listen to this, guys.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LENO: According to the video that was shown in the courtroom, Michael Jackson used chimps to clean up around the Neverland ranch. He has the chimps dusting and cleaning. Isn`t that bizarre? I mean, have you ever heard of that? Have you ever heard anyone saying, you place is so spotless, I need to get the name of your cleaning monkey. You know, my -- you know, mine just throws feces all over the living room. I got to get one that can actually dust and -- it`s fabulous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Jay Leno, "Tonight Show" host, now named as a defense witness for Michael Jackson. I`m still holding out for Elizabeth Taylor. Quick break, stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: There you go, Sarah Johnson convicted of killing her parents; same thing Christopher Pittman, grandparents; Melissa Drexler, prom mom, killed her baby and asked for this song "Unforgiven" for Metallica, to be played at her prom. Who could forget Amy Grossburg and Brian Peterson they bludgeoned their baby to death and threw him in the dumpster? Oh gosh, Menendez brothers, a classic and Sarah Johnson. We brought you that case as it was happening. Well, tonight, another story similar, very reminiscent. A young teenager in a fancy private school, 16 years old, I bet he had his own car, I`ll find out about that, now accused of murdering his mother and father. And as soon as we establish the timeline, we`ll find out if this handsome young man then went down and partied hearty at the junior-senior prom. Tonight, WSJS radio news anchor Shelby Lin is with us from Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

Shelby, this is hard to swallow. What happened?

SHELBY LIN, WSJS ANCHOR: Well Nancy, as you can imagine the case is still unfolding. We know that a 16-year-old Chapel Hill boy is jailed, charged with killing his mother and father. We understand that the murders actually happened the weekend of April 29, sometime between the 29h and the -- the 29th of April and May 1. The bodies were not found until last weekend. Yeah, it`s quite a case. His first hearing was on Monday.

GRACE: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You`re telling me it`s possible he shot his parents and then let them lay there and begin decaying in the family home for, oh, a couple of days?

LIN: Yes, that`s what police are saying. That`s what we understand. There wasn`t even a missing person report filed on him or a call about the parents until, from what reports indicate, Friday. So two weeks, we understand that the 16-year-old Adam Sapikowski may have went to school at least one day during that time period.

GRACE: Oh god.

LIN: He was staying in a local hotel in Durham. And police are really still trying to answer a lot of questions and piece this case together. And Chapel Hill is a college town, it`s full of academics, a sleepy kind of town, murder, not the norm there. It`s shocking.

GRACE: What was the cause of death? Shooting?

LIN: Shotgun. Both the mother, the father, Alison and James Sapikowski, shot to death -- shotgun slain.

GRACE: Were there multiple shootings? I mean, how many -- how many bullets?

LIN: From what I understand, the father was shot three times, the mother shot twice, once in the head, once in the shoulder for Alison, and then for James, what police are saying, a search warrant indicates the father was shot three times in the head.

GRACE: Yes, no, did he confess?

LIN: We understand that, yes, he confessed to police on Saturday after they found the bodies. Actually, from when they got him at the hotel, he still maintained the parents were in Texas. While they were even driving to the house, they had found him at a Durham hotel, they were taking him to the house at that point they weren`t sure about anything. They get to the house Saturday morning, horrific smell, they find the bodies wrapped in blankets, take him to jail.

GRACE: Hey Shelby, was this kid in a private school?

LIN: Yes, he was, Durham Academy.

GRACE: This puts the nail in my coffin. Did they give him his own car, too?

LIN: I`m sorry, Nancy, I don`t know. There were suggestions he may have slept in a car, part of this two-week period, so it`s very likely it was his own car.

GRACE: OK, you know, I`ve got to go out to you, Debra Opri.

This kid needs to get down on his knees and pray to god, thank you god for the Supreme Court that we`ve got right now that just got rid of the death penalty for people under 18. Because, come on, staying at a hotel, you go to the prom, I`m surprised, like Melissa Drexler he didn`t ask to have a special song played for him, partied hearty, lived it up in a hotel. Check out this -- check out this shack, here, they`re living in. Don`t tell me this kid was abused, I know that`s where you`re going. Aren`t` you Debra Opri?

OPRI: Well, as a criminal defense attorney, there are going to be a number of things I would raise. No. 1, is there a insanity defense that I can plead? If...

GRACE: (LAUGHING)

OPRI: Well, I`m being a criminal defense attorney. You know, my sister lives in that area, and all they`re talking about is the cold blooded nature of the killing, but you know, we have that montage you showed, let`s be honest. For his defense, what more is there other than mental incapacity because of insanity or abuse? I mean, where else is this kid going to go in the defense?

GRACE: And of course, Lisa Wayne -- of course he`s going to be tried as an adult. I didn`t ask Shelby that, but with a double murder, and remember, Shelby told us it was with a shotgun. And with multiple shots, that means between each bullet he pumped into his father`s head, he had to rerack it, gave him plenty of time to think about it.

OPRI: Well Nancy, you know, I agree with Debra, obviously. And this is a -- these are cases that are always, if they are investigated correctly, I`ve never had one of them where there isn`t some kind of emotional or physical abuse and so, you know, I`m assuming that down the line we`re going to see that he`s a victim. But interestingly enough about this case is that he`s a juvenile giving a confession without parents there. And that`s going to be an issue in this case.

GRACE: OK, whose fault was that?

OPRI: Well, I -- well, it`s going to be an issue in this case, if the police didn`t take any steps to assure that someone was there with him. That`s a problem.

GRACE: You get the award -- you get the award for nerve. Eleanor Dixon, did you hear that? The confession`s no good because the parents weren`t with him when he talked to police, because they were in the next room dead.

DIXON: It`s a creative argument. We`ll see if that flies.

GRACE: What do you think about an insanity defense?

DIXON: Well, as a prosecutor, I say hogwash because you talked about the single shots, he had to rerack the gun each time, he`s staying in a hotel, that shows his state of mind, he`s staying away from...

GRACE: Like every normal 16-year-old boy, he just checked into the Ritz.

DIXON: Well, he`s staying away from the smell that was probably pretty darn bad at that point. He`s going to a prom. This isn`t the action of a person with some mental defects, some person who`s not competent at all.

GRACE: Dr. Michael wellner is with us, forensic psychologist. There is not a shred, not a scintilla of evidence to suggest that this young man was ever abused. In fact, the evidence suggests otherwise, Doctor.

WELLNER: Yeah, why don`t we get psychiatry in here, after all? These cases necessarily become psychiatric because the identification is clear, it`s obvious that he was responsible, so there`s no other alternative but to raise a psychiatric defense. Clearly, his behavior after the fact reflected actions which would take away the possibility of an insanity defense, but in cases like this, the possibility of abuse comes up because no one really knows what goes on behind closed doors, so expect the defense to probe that carefully.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. And to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man: Ronald Dante Fontenot, a convicted child molester wanted for indecent behavior with a juvenile and probation violation. Sixty-nine, 5`7", 170, gray hair, blue eyes. The FBI offering a reward leading to his arrest. If you have information, call 504-816-3000. Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back, and remember live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, "Court TV`s Closing Arguments". Please stay with us as we remember an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Shawn Hornbeck, 14 years old, Shawn disappeared while riding his bike October 2002 in Richwoods, Missouri. If you have any information on Shawn Damien Hornbeck, please contact the Shawn Hornbeck Foundation at 866-400-5353, or go to beyondmissing.com. Please help us.

Welcome back, everybody. We are bringing you a story out of Carolina, 16-year-old young man accused of the murder of both parents. Straight back to WSJS radio news anchor Shelby Lin.

Shelby, what happens now? I know he`s coming to court. I see the orange jump suit, and gotten a formal reading of his charges. Is there bail? And when`s the next court appearance?

LIN: The next court appearance is scheduled for June 6. Bail, we don`t know about that yet, it`s possible the public defender, who the judge did appoint for Adam, it`s possible he could go to the judge and request that. We don`t know at this point. Police are actually -- what`s happening now, police are trying to get a court order to get his school records, to find out his attendance in the past two weeks. They need a guardian`s approval for that...

GRACE: Right.

LIN: There hasn`t been a guardian appointed, so still unfolding here.

GRACE: Yeah, it really is, very difficult issues with a juvenile. What`s the biggest hurdle for the prosecution of a juvenile?

DIXON: I think it`s the fact that they are a child and the jury looks at them sometimes as a child, and to prove that their actions were horrific and to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

GRACE: Yeah, when you clean them up and get him out of that jump suit he`s going to look like a choir boy.

LIN: Well, a good defense attorney will make sure he looks like a choir boy.

GRACE: Like Lisa Wayne and Debra Opri. OK, thank you, Eleanor.

I want to thank all my guests tonight, but as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with all of us and inviting us into your home. Coming up, headlines from around the world and Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight, I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, No. 1, don`t forget that Amber Alert about Shasta and Dylan Groene. Hold them in your thoughts. Until tomorrow night, good night, friend.

END


Aired May 19, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, CNN HEADLINE NEWS ANCHOR, NANCY GRACE: Tonight, still no break in an Idaho triple homicide. An Amber Alert still in effect tonight for an eight-year-old and nine-year-old taken from the home in which their family was killed. And tonight, police clear and release Rob Roy Lutner, a person of interest. He was brought in for police questioning in the brutal Idaho triple murder.
And a 16-year-old boy admits to shooting and killing his parents. Tonight police want to know, and so do I, did 16-year-old Adam Sapikowski murder both his mom and dad and then go to the high school prom?

And it is day 56 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Larry King shows up to testify.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight. We go live to California and the Michael Jackson trial. The judge turns Larry King away from the witness stand.

And, a North Carolina 16-year-old confesses to gunning down his parents in their exclusive Chapel Hill home, the same weekend he partied down at the high school prom.

But first, tonight, no leads in the Idaho triple murder and a desperate search for eight and nine-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene. Tonight, their father begging for them to come home. A man brought in for questioning released tonight, leaving law enforcement back at square one. With us tonight in Coeur D`alene, Idaho, Kootenai County Sheriff Captain Ben Wolfinger, in L.A., Defense Attorney Debra Opri, in Denver, Defense Attorney Lisa Wayne, in Atlanta, Veteran Prosecutor Eleanor Dixon, in New York, Forensic Psychiatrist Dr. Michael Wellner. But first, let`s go to CNN Correspondent Alina Cho.

Welcome, Alina. Please, bring us up to date, friend.

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT, NANCY GRACE: Well, here`s the very latest, Nancy.

Of course the two children, nine-year-old Dylan and eight-year-old sister Shasta Groene are still missing at this hour. An Amber Alert, as you know, still in effect. And the search continues. Today they brought out the divers to search area ponds and lakes but so far nothing.

And remember, this is a two-pronged investigation, as you well know, Nancy. This is also a triple murder scene. The children`s mother, 13- year-old brother, and apparent boyfriend of the mother were found dead Monday night and so far no leads on that. An FBI forensics team is on the scene combing through and searching for evidence. And all of that evidence, we are told, is being sent to the best crime lab in the nation, as you know, in Quantico, Virginia.

Nancy.

GRACE: Very quickly to Captain Ben Wolfinger. Do we have a cause of death? Can you announce it?

BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF CAPTAIN: Yes, Nancy. The coroner released the cause of death just a few hours ago. All three victims were killed by blunt force trauma to the head.

GRACE: Has the coroner completed the autopsies on all three victims?

WOLFINGER: Yes. The final autopsy was completed about noon today.

GRACE: Back to Alina Cho.

Alina, you said that divers are now searching local ponds. Now, what has led police to local ponds, if anything?

CHO: Well, to be honest, they have been fanning out over the area into the wooded area. As you might be able to see behind me, some 400 acres. They`ve searched what they`re calling little tree forts, places where they believe that the children might be hiding. But to no avail. And so today they expanded that search and they decided to bring in the divers and, unfortunately, no luck so far. Captain Wolfinger has said they are searching for evidence and, as he says, God forbid, the bodies of the children.

GRACE: Well, my question to you, Captain, is, you`ve brought in cadaver dogs, correct? Has anything led you to these local ponds or did you just do that as a precaution?

WOLFINGER: Nancy, we just did that as a precaution. This area is crisscrossed with small streams, creeks and these little ponds. And they`re all around the area around the home itself within that 40 acre search area. We couldn`t do them adequately without bringing divers in.

GRACE: Let`s talk about Robert Roy Lutner for a moment. Captain, you really couldn`t comment any earlier but it seemed to me if you guys were not searching his car or his home for possible DNA or fiber evidence, maybe a murder weapon, then he was not the suspect. What did you hope to gain from this guy, Rob Roy Lutner?

WOLFINGER: Well, Nancy, he never was a suspect. He was only a person of interest at that point. We knew he had been in the home Sunday evening. They interviewed Mr. Lutner for approximately seven hours last night. And at the end of it, he was happy to take a lie detector test to prove his truthfulness. He`s passed that test with no problems. So the detectives, based upon the lengthy interview and the polygraph test, are comfortable that Mr. Lutner has nothing to do with the disappearance of the children or the homicides.

CHO: And, Captain, actually what I found most interesting about that, Nancy, was when Captain Wolfinger was speaking earlier, he said that one of the most interesting things - there was no real information gleaned in terms of the investigation. He did mention that there was a gathering, as I know you`ve heard, Nancy, on Sunday night at the home. And so there are several people out there who were at that gathering who have not yet contacted police. And, of course, as they`re trying to lift fingerprints and other evidence, they want these people to please, please call the tip line so that they can be cleared of any wrongdoing. Because certainly, at some point, once they have the fingerprints, they will be seeking these people out.

GRACE: Alina, what do you mean by a gathering?

CHO: They`re in the home. They are searching for evidence. I know at one point that my colleague, Sean Callebs, was saying that they were trying to do the delicate work of trying to actually lift the fingerprints from the body. Now Captain Wolfinger can speak a little more clearly about whether that actually has been done. But, as you very well know, Nancy, very delicate work and they`re doing that painstakingly. I`m told that they will be at the home for the next half day or full day tomorrow. So we shall see what happens.

GRACE: Very quickly out to Debra Opri.

Debra, I don`t know about you, but as a prosecutor for so many years, it always impressed me greatly when a defendant, a suspect, a person of interest, volunteered to take a police authorized lie detector test. That means a lot to me.

DEBRA OPRI, L.A. DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. It may mean a lot to you but the bottom line is, he was pressured. I`m sure he did it so willingly because he had nothing to hide. But as a criminal defense attorney, I`m going to tell you you`re wrong because there are many leads in this case that are just not being told to the media. And what they`re . . .

GRACE: Wait. I was talking about a polygraph. That`s the specific question I asked you. Please answer.

OPRI: Yes, and I said, big deal, so he gave a polygraph. I`m talking about Lutner proved more than just a coming to a polygraph test. He gave so many leads in this case that over the next course of three or four days, a lot more people are going to be coming in on the net.

And one other thing, Nancy, I hate to say this, but if these kids ran away from a crime scene or happened upon the crime scene in the course of a barbecue, they`ve either been dumped or discarded or they`re running. And it`s sickening and it`s hard to take but the police are scanning with the understanding they just may be victims as well.

GRACE: Eleanor Dixon, back to the polygraph issue. Thoughts?

ELEANOR DIXON, VETERAN PROSECUTOR: Well, I think -- I agree with you, Nancy, it`s always important to us if the defendant will agree to take a stipulated polygraph. And by stipulated I mean the defendant and also the state have agreed to use those results in court. So it kind of cuts both ways.

GRACE: It`s highly significant when someone takes a state authorized polygraph. They volunteer to do it. And they pass it.

Back to the issue regarding fingerprinting bodies. You know, very, very difficult to do, Lisa Wayne. Lisa, have you ever had a case, ever, where you got prints of a body?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No. It`s very difficult to do, Nancy, like you said. And I mean to lift those prints and to get a good print, particularly in this day and age when their fingerprints are being scrutinized so much by both sides, frankly, as to whether or not they have any real forensic value. You know, that`s a tough one and I don`t think there`s probably going to be very much telling on those bodies.

GRACE: I think you`re right and I hate it. Today, the father of these two little children, eight and nine-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene, begged for their return.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE GROENE, FATHER OF MISSING CHILDREN: I`d like to address my children`s abductors or abductor. Please, please release my children safely. They had nothing to do with any of this. Release them in a safe area where law enforcement can find them. Call the help line. Let them know where they can be found. Please. We need the safe return of those children. Thank you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: and remember, this is a man that`s lost his 13-year-old boy. There was a 13-year-old murder victim in the house with the mom, Brenda, and the boyfriend.

Back to Alina Cho.

Alina, Lutner was at the residence on Sunday. Was it a barbecue? How many people were there? And why is it so difficult to find these people? What`s the big secret? It`s a small town. Who was there and why aren`t they coming forward?

CHO: I know you would think, right, Nancy? In fact, I asked the captain that earlier, you know, how many people exactly? What are we talking about? He characterized it as a traditional sort of Sunday afternoon barbecue. He wasn`t able to tell me how many people were there. And you would think certainly that these people would come forward by now at least to say, listen, I was there and nothing happened while I was there but that has not been the case so far.

GRACE: Well, I`ve got to tell you something, Captain, for an innocent barbecue, I don`t know what the hesitation is for people to come forward. You know, it could really help establish a time line.

Captain, what is the exact, as best as you can tell us, time of death of Brenda, the son, and the boyfriend?

WOLFINGER: Well, we don`t have the time of death, at least here at the media center. The coroner issued his report today and did not include time of death in that public press release. He may have shared that with the investigators and I imagine he will. But we don`t have it out here at the media center.

GRACE: Now, Captain, that would be very significant to find the time of death. You could narrow down so much information. That`s why this barbecue is very important. We need to know when the last person left the barbecue, what was going on at that time, and then you can kind of back time the time of death.

WOLFINGER: Well, certainly. And that`s why the investigators would have time of death and those people trying to find those children, as far as operating that part of the investigation. But it`s not an important element for me to have here at the media center.

GRACE: We are live in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho. With us, CNN Correspondent Alina Cho and Captain Ben Wolfinger, the Kootenai County Sheriff. We`ll all be right back. Please stay with us.

Elizabeth, can we go out with a shot of the children?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: Why would (INAUDIBLE) kill three people and take two children? Does that give us hope for the children? You bet it does. You know, and that`s all we have to go on at this point is hope. Without any solid leads, you know, we`re going on hope and those prayers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: We need anybody who was at that house on Sunday to contact the sheriff`s office through the tip line and identify themselves. We`re gathering every fingerprint in that house that we can find. We have to eliminate those people who were legitimately here at the house.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s the Kootenai County Sheriff Ben Wolfinger.

And tonight the search is desperate for eight and nine-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene. Take a look at these kids. Their entire family basically has been wiped out. They were apparently taken from that home. They were spared as far as we know. But the hours are passing.

Joining us there at the scene in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho, is CNN Correspondent Alina Cho. Also with us, Captain Ben Wolfinger.

Back to Alina Cho.

I know the captain is not releasing some information. Alina, do we have any idea -- and I find this very significant Alina, what the bodies were bound with?

CHO: That is the question right now. A very good question, Nancy. But so far my esteemed Captain Wolfinger, who is sitting next to me, has not yet told us any details about that. As you know, as you very well know, yesterday we had heard that the victims were bound. There was a lot of blood at the scene. And they were calling it a triple homicide because there was some thought that it might have been a murder/suicide.

Today we did hear, as you know, from the coroner`s office that it was a blunt trauma as the cause of death. And certainly we are trying to still glean some more details from that. And CNN I know is working feverishly to get that coroner`s report, Nancy.

GRACE: Captain Wolfinger, a question to you.

Can you tell us what the bodies were bound with?

WOLFINGER: No, we can`t, Nancy. That`s one of those details that the investigators are keeping close to the vest at this time.

GRACE: Eleanor Dixon, it would be highly significant if we knew, agree or disagree?

DIXON: Well, I agree because it might be something that the person brought with them. Perhaps their own rope. Something like that. Or he may have just grabbed the telephone cord off the wall or an extension cord, which would show a little less planning but wanting to subdue the victims in this case. So I think it is important.

GRACE: Highly important because Dr. Weller, who is with us, forensic psychiatrist, if there was a crime of anger and the perpetrator killed, say, the boyfriend, who is pictured right here, with something there then or got in an argument with him, tied him up with a phone cord or a curtain tie, that would suggest this was not premeditated. If, however, they came into the home with twine or rope or some other substance to use as a tie, that would be very significant, Doctor.

DOCTOR MICHAEL WELLNER, FORENSIC PSYCHIATRIST: Sure. I think we have to remember that three people were found tied. And you have to ask yourself, how many people does it take to restrain three people? We can`t be surprised if as the investigation unfolds, we find out that more than one person was involved in carrying out this crime. And that the missing children have everything to do with why the victims were restrained, perhaps to wait for others to arrive.

So there`s so many different possibilities, including the possibility that the children may be in shock. Just sort of wandering around, having happened upon a brutal and bloody and traumatic scene.

GRACE: Dr. Wellner, I don`t -- they have had out scent hogs, hound dogs, blood hounds. They`ve had out cadaver dogs. They`ve combed the area. Am I right, Captain Wolfinger, these kids have not wandered down the garden path. They would have been found by now. And Captain, while I`ve got you, is it true that you drained a septic tank today?

WOLFINGER: Actually yesterday, Nancy. There was a septic pond near the house. And we drained that. We had a truck come in and pump that dry just to check it, just to verify if anything was in there and we found nothing.

GRACE: But what would you hope to find in there? I mean if it was a blunt trauma, how could that end up in the septic tank?

WOLFINGER: Well, it`s an open tank area. Unfortunately, it`s open and it`s just fenced off. So we didn`t know if, you know, God forbid, we`d find the children in there . . .

GRACE: I understand.

WOLFINGER: Or a tool, a weapon, or anything like that.

GRACE: I understand. I completely understand now.

Let me go back to Alina Cho.

But Alina, first, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VANCE GROENE, SON OF SLAIN WOMAN: I believe that if they`re together and somebody did take them, I mean, if -- it would have had to have been somebody that would have known them. I mean, they`ve always been taught, you don`t talk to strangers. They never left the yard. I mean, I don`t know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Alina Cho, the speculation there must be running rampant. I mean, we can deduce a lot tonight. But the reality is, these three dead, the children either spared or taken away to be killed. We need that time line. And my next question to you is regarding people of interest. Lutner, released. Anyone else on the horizon, Alina, or are we back at square one tonight?

CHO: Well, you know, it`s interesting because this was a point that I wanted to bring up earlier, Nancy. When I spoke with the captain earlier today during the news conference, I asked him, listen, you know, how much hope is there that these children are still alive? You know, you would think that if a killer or killers would come into the home, why not kill all five family members? Why only kill three and take two? And when I asked him that, he said, does that give us more hope? And he said, you bet it does. And so no one here in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho, or the surrounding areas are giving up hope that these children are still alive. Of course, you want to say you expect the worst and hope for the best but certainly I think that people are a little more optimistic than that tonight.

GRACE: We are staying with the story. We are live in Coeur D`Alene, Idaho, tonight. Two children that you`re seeing right now, this little girl, eight-year-old Shasta, this little boy, nine-year-old Dylan Groene, missing. Their mom, dead tonight. Their 13-year-old brother, dead. And they are gone.

Very quickly to trial tracking tonight. Six people taken hostage in what the FBI calls one of the most unusual bank robberies in history. After robbing a Kansas bank, catch this, a 44 -year-old Wichita man ordered all of the captives to strip down to their underwear. Now that`s an interesting trip to the bank. And then he took them to the airport in what we think was a get-away attempt. Well, police shot him at the scene and, of course, flew him to the hospital. He`s alive, in critical condition. No hostages harmed. The suspect now faces federal bank robbery charges.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF LANZA, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: He had them chained up, which he had brought a chain with him in a backpack into the bank. So he chained them together, walked them out to the minivan. And also he put flex-cuffs or plastic handcuffs on some of the hostages and then walked them into a minivan which belonged to one of the tellers of the bank.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(20:24:00)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: Our ultimate goal is to find the children. And we`re going to keep processing this scene because maybe we get that one piece of evidence that leads us to those children. That`s our ultimate goal. We can process crime scenes any day but our goal is to get those children back here to their remaining family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back.

Straight out of Coeur D`Alene and Captain Ben Wolfinger.

Captain, will a reward be announced tomorrow?

WOLFINGER: Well, we think so, Nancy. It`s in the works and we believe it will be announced tomorrow.

GRACE: Captain, what is next?

WOLFINGER: Well, next, they`re going to finish processing this crime scene. The investigators are working 16-plus hour days, interviewing people, processing evidence. And it`s just -- and now we just need help from people like you, Nancy, to get the word out and get these children`s picture out there, keep it out there, so someone somewhere can find these children and get them home.

GRACE: Captain, I`m so glad to hear you have a plan of action because, I mean, you`ve tried so many different things. I just don`t want your people to start losing hope.

Very quickly, back to Alina Cho.

Alina, now that we know that the cause of death is blunt trauma, when you add that to the knowledge that there was an incredible amount of blood at the scene, it is also suggestive of a rage killing. I mean, think about it. How many times would you have to hit these people to kill them and bring out -- and have that much blood. I originally thought it was a stabbing or a shooting death. Now that I know it`s a blunt trauma, I mean, someone was furious, beating these people.

CHO: You`re right. And you are absolutely right, Nancy, it is extraordinary when you consider that you`ve been hearing for the past 24, 48 hours, lots of blood, lots of blood, lots of blood at the scene and then you hear a blunt force trauma as the cause of death. It is a bit shocking, a bit surprising. But the truth is, is that the captain -- actually the sheriff of Kootenai County here, Rocky Watson, after seeing the crime scene, said within the past 24 hours that the killer or killers definitely were on a mission and that is a quote. As for a motive, Nancy, no one here is elaborating on that. But certainly, as I mention, the sheriff here saying that the killers were on a mission.

GRACE: Well, I agree. Captain, I mean, it seems very deliberate to go in and bind the people, methodically kill them in this awful manner, blunt trauma, a beating death of three people.

Captain Ben Wolfinger, please don`t give up, sir.

Alina Cho, thank you.

Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

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NANCY GRACE, HOST: Here he comes, the soldier of the courtroom. Mark Geragos headed back to court tomorrow. Still claiming he doesn`t have to answer questions on cross exam. Although he sang like a bird on direct.

I wonder if Melville`s going to take away his sunglasses and cell phone. That`s a whole other legal issue. It is day 56 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial tonight, in Santa Maria, California, "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, I can`t believe Melville turned Larry King away. What was he thinking? The man`s lost his mind.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, I don`t know what he was thinking, but I have to tell you it was very, very dramatic. As you mentioned, the day started off with talk show host Larry King taking the stand outside of the jury`s presence and saying that attorney Larry Feldman, who was associated with the accuser`s mother, told him that that mom was a quote-unquote "wacko out for money."

Now, that could have been very damaging to the prosecution`s case, but they never got a chance to hear it because the judge ruled that Larry King`s testimony was not admissible and so he went away. And the day ended with an absolute dramatic 19-minute video played by the defense of Neverland in all its manicured glory, complete with among many other things many statues of children at play and portraits of Michael Jackson leading children by the hand, something that prosecutors called a propaganda film.

GRACE: You know, I don`t know if in a child molestation case it`s so great to have photos of the defendant leading children by the hand. Now, joining us is the Jackson family attorney, Debra Opri, but before we go to Debra, take a listen to this.

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GRACE: Debra Opri, will Jackson take the stand?

OPRI: I think he will. He will. He will. He will.

GRACE: Will he take the stand?

OPRI: I`m telling you, in my opinion, he will. I`ve said it from day one when everybody else laughed at me, he would testify. He has the story to tell.

He would testify.

Testify.

Testify.

I`m telling you.

Testify.

He will.

Testify.

In my opinion, he will.

GRACE: Will he take the stand?

OPRI: He will.

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GRACE: Debra, will he take the stand?

OPRI: He already has. Ha ha ha!

GRACE: In other words, no.

OPRI: He already has. They played the video.

GRACE: You just can`t admit it, the man is not going to take the stand and submit himself to cross.

OPRI: Listen, are you going to give me -- are you going to give me 15 seconds?

GRACE: Fifteen, you`re on.

OPRI: Let me explain. Michael Jackson, in my opinion, was going to take the stand before the court ordered that the defense can put the videos in. In my opinion, once you get those videos in, testimony without the threat of cross examination, does Michael need to testify anymore? Not in my opinion. Will he take the stand? If he does now, I don`t know what purpose Mesereau would want to serve.

GRACE: Eleanor Dixon, from the day one you and I said, no way. First of all, Jackson shows up in his pajamas. Now, that makes the spokesperson Ramon Bain really mad when I point that out. But normally people don`t come to court in their pajamas. He shows up in his pajamas, he gets sick and has to go throw up, he starts crying in court. Long story short, that`s not the kind of guy you want to subject to cross examination as a defense lawyer.

ELEANOR DIXON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No, I wouldn`t think so, and as a prosecutor, I would love it if he took the stand, because he would be so much fun to cross examine, especially with that little high pitched voice that he has. But it may actually hurt the defense.

GRACE: Even though he`s got the other voice too.

DIXON: Well yes.

GRACE: The deep voice.

DIXON: For grown-ups. But, it may actually help the prosecution, because in the back of their minds is jurors may be thinking, why hasn`t he said anything?

GRACE: You know, she`s right, Lisa Wayne, which is contrary to the law and the jury charge to the jury. The judge specifically says, you are not, you will not, hold it against the defendant if exercises his right to remain silent. And in the back of their minds they`re saying, why is he remaining silent? Right?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: They may do that, but frankly, I think Mesereau talked about it on jury selection and the bottom line is they want to hear two sighs of the story. A good defense lawyer says, you`ll hear two sides. The first side is, he said he didn`t do it, it pled not guilty. Now you get to hear the other side, that`s the accusation. And frankly, I think him not taking the stand sends a message it`s a weak case. They haven`t proved this case beyond a reasonable doubt. He doesn`t need to take the stand and Mesereau just has to hit up on the law in closing argument and it`s a done deal, as far as I`m concerned.

GRACE: Back to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice."

Jane, I am not surprised, actually, that the judge told Larry King he could not testify, regarding this issue, because it was total and complete hearsay. Larry Feldman, the attorney, was supposed to have told Larry the boy what`s mom was out for money. That`s quite a bit of hearsay. So I`m not surprised. What about Jay Leno?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Jay Leno is a different matter because he, according to our sources, and let`s hear what he actually says when he takes the stand on Tuesday -- said that the accuser called him on the phone and that he could hear the accuser`s mother in the background kind of egging him on, and that Jay Leno purportedly became suspicious of this and even contacted authorities. So, that is his direct experience on the phone, supposedly with this accuser. And of course, they have a reputation and a witness testified to this today, that they kind of were always talking about being in the poorhouse and needing everything under the sun and collecting money from all sorts of different people at the same time...

GRACE: Jane...

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Telling each one of them they were broke...

GRACE: Jane, I know you`re a big star now, but have you ever been broke?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. In fact, I could be broke right now, Nancy.

GRACE: You know what? I`ve been broke. But good. Talk about law school and undergraduate student loans, are you kidding me? So, when people are really broke, they do tend to talk about it all the time. They don`t know where their next apartment payment is coming from. Any -- far from broke, Jay Leno, take a listen to this:

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JAY LENO, "TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": Hey Kevin, you know what Michael Jackson calls the Boy Scout uniforms?

KEVIN EUBANKS, MUSIC DIRECTOR: What`s that?

LENO: Lingerie. But enough -- all right, stop, stop that. Stop.

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GRACE: Jay Leno, "Tonight Show" host, now named as a defense witness for Michael Jackson. And Dr. Michael Wellner is with us, forensic psychologist. All these stars are basically talking about the mom being out for money. Correct me, what does that have to do with the boy`s credibility as to whether he was molested?

MICHAEL WELLNER, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it`s all about leveraging to create reasonable doubt and that`s a hurdle that, in some cases, it may seem to be a high hurdle, but I don`t think it`s going to be a very big hurdle in this case, especially with some of the other testimony that`s come forward in recent days from children who say they`ve had this very friendly, very close relationship with Michael Jackson in which no molestation was involved. It`s just another brick in the wall, another log on the fire, and so it creates momentum -- momentum towards reasonable doubt.

GRACE: Well, you know, Eleanor Dixon, I find it very difficult to believe that a successful defense in child molestation is, yeah, I slept with hundreds of kids, but I didn`t molest these three.

DIXON: That`s -- I wouldn`t think that would be a successful defense. You`re going to deny, deny, and do what they`re also doing, blame the victim, and point out all the problems the victim and the victim`s family have, as opposed to saying, hey, I`m a good person, I sleep with other little children and it`s all good. And to me...

GRACE: It`s all good.

DIXON: Well, the prosecution can turn that around and say, hey, come on, how many unrelated people do you sleep with in your bed at night?

GRACE: Take a listen to this, guys.

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LENO: According to the video that was shown in the courtroom, Michael Jackson used chimps to clean up around the Neverland ranch. He has the chimps dusting and cleaning. Isn`t that bizarre? I mean, have you ever heard of that? Have you ever heard anyone saying, you place is so spotless, I need to get the name of your cleaning monkey. You know, my -- you know, mine just throws feces all over the living room. I got to get one that can actually dust and -- it`s fabulous.

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GRACE: That is Jay Leno, "Tonight Show" host, now named as a defense witness for Michael Jackson. I`m still holding out for Elizabeth Taylor. Quick break, stay with us.

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GRACE: There you go, Sarah Johnson convicted of killing her parents; same thing Christopher Pittman, grandparents; Melissa Drexler, prom mom, killed her baby and asked for this song "Unforgiven" for Metallica, to be played at her prom. Who could forget Amy Grossburg and Brian Peterson they bludgeoned their baby to death and threw him in the dumpster? Oh gosh, Menendez brothers, a classic and Sarah Johnson. We brought you that case as it was happening. Well, tonight, another story similar, very reminiscent. A young teenager in a fancy private school, 16 years old, I bet he had his own car, I`ll find out about that, now accused of murdering his mother and father. And as soon as we establish the timeline, we`ll find out if this handsome young man then went down and partied hearty at the junior-senior prom. Tonight, WSJS radio news anchor Shelby Lin is with us from Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

Shelby, this is hard to swallow. What happened?

SHELBY LIN, WSJS ANCHOR: Well Nancy, as you can imagine the case is still unfolding. We know that a 16-year-old Chapel Hill boy is jailed, charged with killing his mother and father. We understand that the murders actually happened the weekend of April 29, sometime between the 29h and the -- the 29th of April and May 1. The bodies were not found until last weekend. Yeah, it`s quite a case. His first hearing was on Monday.

GRACE: Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. You`re telling me it`s possible he shot his parents and then let them lay there and begin decaying in the family home for, oh, a couple of days?

LIN: Yes, that`s what police are saying. That`s what we understand. There wasn`t even a missing person report filed on him or a call about the parents until, from what reports indicate, Friday. So two weeks, we understand that the 16-year-old Adam Sapikowski may have went to school at least one day during that time period.

GRACE: Oh god.

LIN: He was staying in a local hotel in Durham. And police are really still trying to answer a lot of questions and piece this case together. And Chapel Hill is a college town, it`s full of academics, a sleepy kind of town, murder, not the norm there. It`s shocking.

GRACE: What was the cause of death? Shooting?

LIN: Shotgun. Both the mother, the father, Alison and James Sapikowski, shot to death -- shotgun slain.

GRACE: Were there multiple shootings? I mean, how many -- how many bullets?

LIN: From what I understand, the father was shot three times, the mother shot twice, once in the head, once in the shoulder for Alison, and then for James, what police are saying, a search warrant indicates the father was shot three times in the head.

GRACE: Yes, no, did he confess?

LIN: We understand that, yes, he confessed to police on Saturday after they found the bodies. Actually, from when they got him at the hotel, he still maintained the parents were in Texas. While they were even driving to the house, they had found him at a Durham hotel, they were taking him to the house at that point they weren`t sure about anything. They get to the house Saturday morning, horrific smell, they find the bodies wrapped in blankets, take him to jail.

GRACE: Hey Shelby, was this kid in a private school?

LIN: Yes, he was, Durham Academy.

GRACE: This puts the nail in my coffin. Did they give him his own car, too?

LIN: I`m sorry, Nancy, I don`t know. There were suggestions he may have slept in a car, part of this two-week period, so it`s very likely it was his own car.

GRACE: OK, you know, I`ve got to go out to you, Debra Opri.

This kid needs to get down on his knees and pray to god, thank you god for the Supreme Court that we`ve got right now that just got rid of the death penalty for people under 18. Because, come on, staying at a hotel, you go to the prom, I`m surprised, like Melissa Drexler he didn`t ask to have a special song played for him, partied hearty, lived it up in a hotel. Check out this -- check out this shack, here, they`re living in. Don`t tell me this kid was abused, I know that`s where you`re going. Aren`t` you Debra Opri?

OPRI: Well, as a criminal defense attorney, there are going to be a number of things I would raise. No. 1, is there a insanity defense that I can plead? If...

GRACE: (LAUGHING)

OPRI: Well, I`m being a criminal defense attorney. You know, my sister lives in that area, and all they`re talking about is the cold blooded nature of the killing, but you know, we have that montage you showed, let`s be honest. For his defense, what more is there other than mental incapacity because of insanity or abuse? I mean, where else is this kid going to go in the defense?

GRACE: And of course, Lisa Wayne -- of course he`s going to be tried as an adult. I didn`t ask Shelby that, but with a double murder, and remember, Shelby told us it was with a shotgun. And with multiple shots, that means between each bullet he pumped into his father`s head, he had to rerack it, gave him plenty of time to think about it.

OPRI: Well Nancy, you know, I agree with Debra, obviously. And this is a -- these are cases that are always, if they are investigated correctly, I`ve never had one of them where there isn`t some kind of emotional or physical abuse and so, you know, I`m assuming that down the line we`re going to see that he`s a victim. But interestingly enough about this case is that he`s a juvenile giving a confession without parents there. And that`s going to be an issue in this case.

GRACE: OK, whose fault was that?

OPRI: Well, I -- well, it`s going to be an issue in this case, if the police didn`t take any steps to assure that someone was there with him. That`s a problem.

GRACE: You get the award -- you get the award for nerve. Eleanor Dixon, did you hear that? The confession`s no good because the parents weren`t with him when he talked to police, because they were in the next room dead.

DIXON: It`s a creative argument. We`ll see if that flies.

GRACE: What do you think about an insanity defense?

DIXON: Well, as a prosecutor, I say hogwash because you talked about the single shots, he had to rerack the gun each time, he`s staying in a hotel, that shows his state of mind, he`s staying away from...

GRACE: Like every normal 16-year-old boy, he just checked into the Ritz.

DIXON: Well, he`s staying away from the smell that was probably pretty darn bad at that point. He`s going to a prom. This isn`t the action of a person with some mental defects, some person who`s not competent at all.

GRACE: Dr. Michael wellner is with us, forensic psychologist. There is not a shred, not a scintilla of evidence to suggest that this young man was ever abused. In fact, the evidence suggests otherwise, Doctor.

WELLNER: Yeah, why don`t we get psychiatry in here, after all? These cases necessarily become psychiatric because the identification is clear, it`s obvious that he was responsible, so there`s no other alternative but to raise a psychiatric defense. Clearly, his behavior after the fact reflected actions which would take away the possibility of an insanity defense, but in cases like this, the possibility of abuse comes up because no one really knows what goes on behind closed doors, so expect the defense to probe that carefully.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. And to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man: Ronald Dante Fontenot, a convicted child molester wanted for indecent behavior with a juvenile and probation violation. Sixty-nine, 5`7", 170, gray hair, blue eyes. The FBI offering a reward leading to his arrest. If you have information, call 504-816-3000. Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back, and remember live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, "Court TV`s Closing Arguments". Please stay with us as we remember an American hero.

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GRACE: We at NANCY GRACE want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Tonight, take a look at Shawn Hornbeck, 14 years old, Shawn disappeared while riding his bike October 2002 in Richwoods, Missouri. If you have any information on Shawn Damien Hornbeck, please contact the Shawn Hornbeck Foundation at 866-400-5353, or go to beyondmissing.com. Please help us.

Welcome back, everybody. We are bringing you a story out of Carolina, 16-year-old young man accused of the murder of both parents. Straight back to WSJS radio news anchor Shelby Lin.

Shelby, what happens now? I know he`s coming to court. I see the orange jump suit, and gotten a formal reading of his charges. Is there bail? And when`s the next court appearance?

LIN: The next court appearance is scheduled for June 6. Bail, we don`t know about that yet, it`s possible the public defender, who the judge did appoint for Adam, it`s possible he could go to the judge and request that. We don`t know at this point. Police are actually -- what`s happening now, police are trying to get a court order to get his school records, to find out his attendance in the past two weeks. They need a guardian`s approval for that...

GRACE: Right.

LIN: There hasn`t been a guardian appointed, so still unfolding here.

GRACE: Yeah, it really is, very difficult issues with a juvenile. What`s the biggest hurdle for the prosecution of a juvenile?

DIXON: I think it`s the fact that they are a child and the jury looks at them sometimes as a child, and to prove that their actions were horrific and to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

GRACE: Yeah, when you clean them up and get him out of that jump suit he`s going to look like a choir boy.

LIN: Well, a good defense attorney will make sure he looks like a choir boy.

GRACE: Like Lisa Wayne and Debra Opri. OK, thank you, Eleanor.

I want to thank all my guests tonight, but as always, my biggest thank you is to you for being with all of us and inviting us into your home. Coming up, headlines from around the world and Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight, I hope to see you right here tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, No. 1, don`t forget that Amber Alert about Shasta and Dylan Groene. Hold them in your thoughts. Until tomorrow night, good night, friend.

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