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Nancy Grace

Search for Groene Children Continues; Day 57 of Michael Jackson Trial

Aired May 20, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, day five in the search for the perpetrator of the Idaho triple homicide and kidnap of an 8-year-old and 9- year-old from that same home. Hopes dashed as the only credible sighting of 8-year-old Shasta and 9-year-old Dylan Groene turns out to be false. We are live tonight in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, for the latest on the case.
And we go live to California. It`s Day 57 -- can you believe it -- in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Michael Jackson`s former lawyer, Mark Geragos, back on the witness stand for the defense. Jackson`s current lawyer gets it over on the trial judge, who is threatening legal action against Jackson`s defense team. And all signs are the defense plans to cut its own case short.

But first, to Idaho.

A sighting of 8-year-old Shasta, 9-year-old Dylan Groene is false. Tonight, we need your help to find these two missing children five long days after a brutal triple murder wiped out most of the children`s family.

Tonight, from Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, Kootenai County sheriff Rocky Watson; in Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell; in West Tampa, Florida, defense attorney Joe Episcopo; in New York, psychotherapist Caryn Stark.

But first, let`s go out to CNN correspondent Alina Cho. Alina, I`m sure everybody`s hopes dashed when we found out that report was false. What exactly was the report, and how was it discredited, Alina?

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, early this morning, we woke up, and we got this -- what we thought was good news, Nancy, as you know. And for most of the day, we thought it was.

Basically, what we had heard was that authorities in northern Idaho had reported a possible sighting of two children who resembled 9-year-old Dylan and sister, 8-year-old Shasta Groene. The sighting was at a pawn shop that sells sporting goods. The owner of the store had called in the tip, called 911, and said, "Listen, I think I may have seen these two children with a tall man in a light-colored, full-sized van."

The man asked for directions to Libby, Montana. The store is 70 miles north of here, by the way. And so immediately, authorities fanned out, called authorities in Montana, even Canada. And then there was no sighting of the van.

Of course, later we found out late this afternoon that it was what they are calling now an invalid sighting. What happened was that they showed the photos again of the children to the owner of the pawn shop. He said, "Listen, I believe that the boy that I saw had darker brown collar- length hair." Of course, 9-year-old Dylan has a blonde crew cut. So, they were able to, at that point, Nancy, discredit the report.

GRACE: To Sheriff Rocky Watson, Sheriff, you know how much we`ve been following this story. It must have broken your heart to find out that this tip -- not false -- I`m sure the person didn`t mean to call in a false information tip -- but it was invalid. How did you feel when you realized this was not Shasta and Dylan?

ROCKY WATSON, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF: We had our hopes up that we had located them, but since we have been advertising the tip-line and opened the emergency operations center, we have received 477 calls of information. And we would rather people make the call and let us sort it out. We would rather deal with several false calls or invalid calls than let those kids get passed us. We need to find them. And I believe they`re still alive.

GRACE: Sheriff, I understand that the processing of the scene has still been going on. Could you tell me a little bit about the DNA testing? Have you gotten any results?

WATSON: They`ll wrap up the test tonight or first thing in the morning. They`re packaging all that evidence. It will leave for Virginia. It won`t be in Virginia until Monday. The FBI has is assuring us a 72-hour turn around on the DNA evidence. So we won`t even have it back until the middle or latter part of next week.

GRACE: Well, of course, there`s several types of DNA testing. You have the PCR-Polymerase chain reaction that you can get back. It`s less conclusive, but it is conclusive. You can get it back in three days. Is that the type of DNA test you`re going to have run in Quantico?

WATSON: I`m leaving that up to the experts. I`m not sure what they`re doing. But they`re sorting this out, because they don`t know which samples are victim samples, which samples may be suspect samples. This is going to be a very in-depth -- but we hope it will give us a lot of new information and more defined direction on this investigation.

GRACE: So back to CNN correspondent Alina Cho. It sounds to me -- and I know that the sheriff can`t comment directly on the evidence tonight -- but it sounds to me, Alina, that there may be blood from the suspect, or at least we can hope?

CHO: Well, we would suspect and, hopefully, we will find out in the next 72 hours or so, Nancy. That evidence, I should mention, is going to be shipped out in mass, either today, but, likely, it`s looking like Monday, to Quantico, to the best crime lab in the nation, as you know.

What I can tell you -- what`s going on right now is that crime scene investigators have already boarded up the house behind me. They`ve put up crime scene tape, and they are essentially sealing off the house. There are still some FBI technicians still there on the scene, still doing their work.

But once they are finished, they will be able to immediately lock the door and seal it up. So the sheriff told me just a moment ago they`re hoping that will happen sometime later today, later tonight. But it could go into tomorrow.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPTAIN BEN WOLFINGER, INVESTIGATING TRIPLE HOMICIDE: I know that the investigators -- I talked to the investigative supervisors a little while ago. They have got lots of leads they`re working on. They`re still processing evidence.

Things are moving forward. People are calling in. We`re getting hundreds and hundreds of tips on our tip line. And they`re able to follow- up on all of those. They have got a team of investigators, from multiple agency, the sheriff`s office, the state police and the FBI all working, following up those leads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are talking about Dylan and Shasta Groene, still missing. It`s five long days now. The alternatives are lessening, and hope is dimming. A tip this morning, a sighting of the kids, turned out to be invalid. It wasn`t these kids.

Take a look, Dylan and Shasta Groene. It nearly broke my heart when I heard the description of Shasta, 3`10", 40 pounds, Dylan, 4-feet-tall, 60 pounds. These children now missing five days.

Back to Alina Cho, CNN correspondent. Alina, it was amazing to me that there had been some type of a barbecue or get-together at the family home on Sunday. One of the last people there, I guess, was a person of interest, Robert Roy Lutner. He has been released.

But here is my question, Alina. Why didn`t these people all come forward and say, "We were at the barbecue. These are all the people that were there. This is what time we left." I`ve got a J.D. I don`t have a DDS. I don`t know how to pull teeth. Why didn`t these people come in and volunteer? Why did the sheriffs have to go out and extract the information from them?

CHO: I know. Isn`t that interesting? I`ve been asked that question all day, Nancy. And it`s one of the biggest questions that we are still trying to answer.

Here is what I can tell you. Captain Wolfinger, who, as you know, was a guest on your show last night...

GRACE: Yes.

CHO: ... had said to me earlier, "You know, listen, if you are at this barbecue, it`s in the afternoon. Nothing happens while you are at that barbecue. You might think in your own mind, `Listen, what information could I offer if I call in to authorities? Nothing happened while I was there.`"

Of course, that`s when the sheriff -- that`s when the captain came out and said, "Don`t do that. Please call in. Anything you might be able to tell us could be helpful." And also, keep in mind, Nancy, as you well know, that as they are gathering evidence, possibly even fingerprints, it is crucial that these people call in so that they are able to eliminate themselves as possible suspects or at least persons of interest.

GRACE: Right. Take a listen to this, Alina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: I don`t know if we`re at the stage where we can talk about it, if it`s premeditated or if it was spur-of-the-moment. That`s going to take a total analysis of the evidence and all the circumstances of the case.

As these people follow those leads, they`ll start to build that case. And they can -- when they get to that conclusion and get a suspect, they`ll be able to tell us whether it was premeditated or if it was spur-of-the- moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Kootenai County Sheriff Rocky Watson. Sheriff, do we know what time that barbecue ended, what time the last person left? I mean, it`s got to help you establish some kind of a timeline.

WATSON: The investigators are working on a timeline on all the data that they`ve acquired now. But no, I don`t know what time the barbecue wrapped up and when they dispersed from there.

GRACE: OK. We are taking a quick break. When we come back, we`re going to find out what the search was today, where they are searching. There are dive efforts going on. And a reward is in place, up to $70,000, for any help finding these two children, Dylan and Shasta Groene. Their family basically wiped out by a killer, and now they are missing.

Elizabeth, can you show Dylan and Shasta, please?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE GROENE, FATHER OF MISSING CHILDREN: If they can see me or hear me, I want them to know that -- and I know that they know I love them, and I need them back with me. Everybody`s praying for them. And all I can tell them is just please hang in there. This will be over soon. They`re coming home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM DOBLE, AUNT OF MISSING CHILDREN: They are with each other. I know they`ll help each other. They know they have got family back here that care about them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

The search goes on for 8- and 9-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene, their family wiped out by a killer in Idaho, Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. Let`s go straight to the location.

Standing by, CNN correspondent Alina Cho. Tell me about the search today.

CHO: Well, Nancy, we can tell you that, at this hour, the auxiliary Coast Guard is actually canvassing the shore line, 74 miles around Lake Coeur d`Alene, any place the sheriff told me where you could possibly dump a body, God forbid. But that is going on right now.

There were no ground searchers. These searchers who are well-trained, by the way, are all volunteer and they`re all exhausted, as you might imagine. They have been searching literally shoulder-to-shoulder. Some dive teams were out today, as the captain said, to do some double-checking, but so far, there has been nothing, Nancy.

GRACE: Sheriff Watson, I know statistically that, as the hours wear on, it`s less and less likely that Shasta and Dylan are alive. But it`s also -- it gives me hope that they were taken out of this murder scene.

What`s your professional take on it tonight? Do you think there`s still hope they`re alive?

WATSON: I do believe. I need to believe they`re still out there alive. There`s always those few cases where children have been recovered days, weeks, years later. And I`m hoping for that.

GRACE: Let me go to veteran defense attorney Renee Rockwell, who has handled kidnapping and murder cases. Renee, perpetrator or perpetrators, thoughts?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, it seems like that, since there were three people in the house, and they were bound, and bludgeoned to death, non-forced entry, that there could possibly be more than one perpetrator. Now, the FBI is involved in this, which is a bit unusual, because this is a local crime.

However, because there`s a kidnapping, and there`s a great chance that these children were moved across state lines, the FBI gets involved. The good thing about that is there`s an incredible amount of resources. And you well know that the DNA -- there will be quick testing. Everything has gone to Quantico, just a much heftier investigation because the FBI is involved.

GRACE: You know what, Sheriff Watson? She`s right. You can`t get a better crime lab, as you pointed out, than Quantico, Sheriff. And the reality is, it`s a lot harder to attack that DNA results when it`s coming out of Quantico. Would you agree? Is that why the results are -- the evidence is being sent to Quantico, because the feds are involved?

WATSON: The feds offered their lab. We had the choice of the federal lab or the state lab. And because of the sheer mass of evidence we have got, we wanted to keep all the evidence out of a single lab, or at a single lab. And so the two professionals, you know, the Idaho state police and FBI, determined it would go to Quantico.

GRACE: Sheriff, I hear the traffic in the background. But I`ve got a lot of questions for you tonight. And I don`t want to jeopardize your investigation at all. But has the search been expanded past your state boundary, up into Canada even?

WATSON: The Amber Alert has went into Canada. And that aspect of it has expanded. We asked the FBI for help on their abducted and exploited children unit. They`ve got a lot of resources, a lot of expertise in there. And they bring a lot into the investigation.

GRACE: Let`s go down to Joe Episcopo, veteran lawyer out of West Tampa, Florida. Joe, do you think it`s perpetrator or perpetrators?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s more than one person. And you know, somebody has got to control these two children. Somebody has got to watch them while somebody goes out and gets food and things of that nature. And just the fact that you had three people that were bound and brutally murdered, it looks like there was people they knew and more than one.

GRACE: You know what I find to be an interesting fact -- back to Alina Cho -- is that one of the cars outside, the door was partially open. And I`m just wondering if the children were coming into the home after the murders had gone down and they were grabbed out there? What other facts can you tell us, Alina, to shed some light for us?

CHO: Well, here is what we can tell you. And it was quite shocking, quite frankly, when I heard it early this morning. Captain Wolfinger was on one of our earlier shows on "AMERICAN MORNING." And he at one point said, you know, this was a horrible thing for the children to witness.

And our colleague, Bill Hemmer, had asked, "Wait a minute. You said something interesting there. Do you believe that the children witnessed this crime?" And he said, "Yes, I believe they did," which was quite surprising. We had not heard that before. But he does, indeed, believe that the children witnessed the murders. What happened afterwards, Nancy, is a big, open question.

GRACE: Sheriff, why does law enforce enforcement think the children witnessed the murders?

WATSON: That`s speculation. It`s just our experience from what we see in the crime scene. We have got no evidence to document that yet, but...

GRACE: Well, did you see something...

WATSON: We do form opinions.

GRACE: Yes, did you see something that gave you that opinion?

WATSON: No. No, we did not.

CHO: Nancy, I can tell you that Captain Wolfinger had said earlier, "Listen, this is a very small house." There was a large gathering there at the house, the barbecue. And they believe firmly that the children were there.

Now, again, like I said, what happened afterwards is an open question. And you know, they`re still trying to piece together all of that, including time of death, which, as you know, and you mentioned yesterday, is the key, it seems, right now.

GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychotherapist. Caryn, the motivation to wipe out a family and then kidnap the children -- obviously, they could have killed the kids right there, right when they killed the other three family members. They didn`t. That gives me hope the kids are still alive, but why? What`s the motivation, Caryn?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, Nancy, to me, it would seem like it would be a sexual predator. I can`t imagine any other situation where they would leave a 13-year-old behind and yet take the two youngest children. And someone who is interested in molesting children would clearly be interested in younger children.

GRACE: But Caryn, why wouldn`t a child molester grab the kid on the way to school, or when the kid was at the shopping mall, or walking to the grocery store, riding their bike? Why do you have to commit triple homicide to snatch the kid?

STARK: Well, you`re not talking about your normal person, Nancy. I really believe that this is a homicidal person, but also someone who has a perversion, a sexual component. And maybe they took these children just as a token, the way they sometimes do, leaving a murder scene.

But I would believe that two younger children taken, and one who is 13 left behind, indicates to me that it`s somebody who has a sexual perversion, who is interested in these children sexually, unfortunately.

GRACE: Yes. The fact that a 13-year-old was left behind, I see your reasoning.

Quick break, everybody. We`ll be right back live in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, when we get back.

Let`s go to "Trial Tracking": Today, prosecutors dropped charges against a man who confessed to killing 10-year-old Katie Collman. They are now focusing their attention on another man previously charged with molesting the girl. Police now charge Anthony Stockelman with Katie`s murder, after a DNA test of semen found on Katie`s body linked Stockelman to the crime.

Katie went missing for five days before her 10-year-old body was found 15 miles from home. Police stumped as to why Charles Hickman confessed to the murder.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: Within the last hour, I spoke to officials from Boundary County. They wanted to clarify what exactly Dylan Groene looked like. Now, they had talked to the investigators involved and confirmed that Dylan Groene had blonde, crew-cut hair. The child spotted that was suspected to be Dylan had brown shoulder-length or collar-length hair. So we were able to rule this out as a valid sighting, unfortunately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Eight- and nine-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene still missing tonight. Let`s go straight out to Coeur d`Alene, Idaho.

Sheriff Watson, tell me what you can about this reward.

WATSON: The reward is just in the infant stage now. Many people, many concerned citizens and businessmen have called in and pledged money. They started putting it together.

Our neighboring community in Spokane, Washington, has a secret witness program. We`re going to partner with them and run it through that process. But we`re verifying the pledges versus the actual money. And there will be a reward posted for information leading to an arrest.

CHO: Nancy, I think an important point is that the sheriff told me a moment that they`ve been flooded with calls. Nearly 500 tips have come into the hotline. They have set up several phone lines. And it`s almost - - it would be very difficult to set up another phone line because they are still trying to work out all of the tips that they`re receiving.

They have 40 investigators working those tips. And they have not been able to go through all of them yet. And so, of course, when you post a reward, say $70,000 like they`re talking about, you`re going to get a flood of calls. And so they had said they`re not quite ready to do that yet. They have not exhausted all of their leads.

GRACE: You know, it sounds like they need more volunteers. I know volunteers are combing that shoreline you told us about, over 70 miles of lakeside shoreline are being combed by volunteers as we speak. But if you`re getting that many tips -- to Sheriff Rocky Watson, Sheriff, how many people are on your staff?

WATSON: My department is 200 employees. Only one-third of them work in the patrol division. But we have several volunteer units that make up about 200 volunteers. And our entire emergency operations center is taking -- these 477 calls are all volunteers. The searchers that were out here for the last three, four days, the posse and search and rescue unit, are all volunteers. The people checking the shoreline right now are volunteers.

GRACE: Very quickly, Alina, I have only got a few moments left. Do we have a phone number for tips or anyone that wants to contribute to this reward? It`s approaching $70,000.

CHO: I would have to defer to the sheriff on that one.

GRACE: There we go, 208 -- hold on. I see it -- 208-448-2293.

Thank you, Alina.

Thank you, sheriff.

The search goes on for Dylan and Shasta tonight. You see the number. The reward is climbing. Please help us.

We at NANCY GRACE, want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Bobbi Crawford, murdered in Hampton, Iowa, November `99, mother, grandmother. Her family is still looking for her killer.

If you have info, call toll-free 888-813-8389.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, "TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": Next Tuesday, I`ll be testifying in the Michael Jackson trial. I have to go up on Tuesday; I`m going to go up in the morning. You know, I`m going to call Michael Monday night. I just want to make sure we don`t wear the same outfit, you know, (INAUDIBLE) same arm band, same red jacket. Actually, I`ve been getting ready for the testimony. I`ve been practicing all week, drinking wine and looking at porno magazines, yeah, just to get ready, try to get into the feel of the testimony, you know.

KEVIN EUBANKS, TONIGHT SHOW MUSIC DIRECTOR: You`ve been practicing a while, huh, Jay?

LENO: Exactly. Yeah. In fact, I testify on Tuesday; my mom is going to testify on Wednesday that nothing happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is "Tonight Show" host Jay Leno, a -- allegedly a witness for the defense up on the stand next week. If he really wants to get ready for the trial, he should take a gander at this. This was taken out of a locked cabinet in Jackson`s home. It`s called "The Boy," I`ve told you about it before. It`s in evidence now. When this jury reads this, they`re going -- oh, thanks, Elizabeth. Thanks. Yeah, you need to mosaic the whole darn thing. I`m not even going to tell you what`s in this thing, but I was afraid I was going to be arrested for having it on the sex.

Welcome back, everybody. It is day 57 in the Michael Jackson sex trial. Tonight, in L.A., "Inside Edition`s" senior correspondent, Jim Moret is with us, he`s been in the courtroom from the get go.

High-profile Seattle trial lawyer, also been in the courtroom, Anne Bremner. But first, let`s go out to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, I`m afraid to ask. What happened in court today?

JANE VELEZ -MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, another dramatic and really emotion-packed day at the Michael Jackson trial. Mark Geragos, Michael Jackson`s former attorney, took the stand and was grilled, and I mean grilled, by prosecutors who aggressively demanded to know what he knew and when he knew it when it came to this alleged conspiracy to whisk the family away to Brazil.

Now, in a series of very nasty exchanges, Geragos insisted he did nothing improper or illegal. Yeah, he says, I hired a private investigator to look into this family, because I feared they were going to shake Michael Jackson down, but I didn`t tell the private investigator how to do his job and I didn`t know the details of his investigation. He insisted, for example, he had no knowledge of a secret. And prosecutors says, possible illegal, tape recording between the mother, a phone call, between the mother and one of the alleged uninvited coconspirators. Now, the very weakest moment for Geragos came when he had to admit that he discovered the family`s passports in a locker in his law office, but had no idea, he insisted, of how they got there.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did you just say the family`s passports?

VELEZ -MITCHELL: I did.

GRACE: Were in a locker in Geragos` law office, but has no knowledge of how they got there?

VELEZ -MITCHELL: Yep. I did say that.

GRACE: OK. Who has the code to the locker?

VELEZ -MITCHELL: I don`t even know if it was locked. He said that, you know, he was very busy. He was working in the same timeframe on the Peterson case and he says he asked around his law office who put it there and he couldn`t find an answer to the question.

GRACE: Very quickly to Jim Moret.

Jim, what`s your take on what went down in court today?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Well my take, frankly, is that the defense pulled a fast one and got away with it and that`s with regard to the waiver of this attorney/client privilege. You remember last Friday, Mark Geragos came to trial and purportedly there was a waiver by Michael Jackson of this attorney/client privilege, which is what really enabled them to put Mark Geragos on the stand, because Mark Geragos was Michael Jackson`s attorney before Tom Mesereau. Then in the middle of cross- examination, after a break, Mark Geragos is handed a piece of paper, which really limits that waiver to a certain time, right after the arrest, and Geragos stops answering questions at that point.

Fast forward to this week. Mark Geragos said, "Your honor, I have received a waiver from Michael Jackson, it`s limited to up to the time of the rest, November 20, 2003. And even if you order me to answer questions of what happened after that, I won`t." So, Geragos really had the judge over a barrel. The judge could have stricken all of the testimony so far. He decided to go forward. And then as Jane said so eloquently, everything was fireworks. You know, I sit next to Jane. She make it is sound so much more exciting. I love the way she describes the courtroom, she brings it to life. She truly does. But, it was -- it was a grueling cross-examination. The prosecution is trying to put Mark Geragos in the middle of this conspiracy. And Mark Geragos is basically falling on the sword for Michael Jackson, saying, look, I told the private investigator to follow this family and that`s what led to the surveillance. I told.

GRACE: Very quickly, back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, did anybody bother to ask Geragos why he had the boy, the mom`s passports, locked in his locker in his law office? Why did they need their passports?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the prosecutors were questioning him with every ounce of their will, trying to trip him up, but he should have tap dancing shoes. He is one amazing tap dancer.

GRACE: Then why did he have the passports.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, he didn`t provide specific explanations. But, here`s the problem. You ask him a specific question, he gives you a vague answer, then there`s an objection from Tom Mesereau, then there`s a ruling from the judge and by the time that`s done, they have to read the question back, because they can`t remember what it was. It goes on like that for hour after hour, the jury is stressed out because they thought they were going to have today off, so everybody`s aware that this jury wants to leave.

GRACE: So, wait, wait, wait. I don`t care about that. I want to hear why did -- do you know where your driver`s license is tonight, Jane Velez-Mitchell? I know where mine is. It`s right down here in my pocketbook. I know where my passport is. It`s squirreled away in my apartment. Why did Geragos have this family`s passport? Why were all their possessions put in a storage unit? Why did he refuse to give them back their stuff?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This sounds like the cross-examination. I`m Geragos and you`re the prosecutor.

GRACE: And I`m getting nowhere.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly.

GRACE: So, we never got an answer, did we?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, there were letters. The prosecution produced a series of letters, for example, saying, here`s the attorney for the mother demanding these passports back and Geragos was like, well, I`m not sure that`s an accurate letter, it has no letterhead, I don`t recognize the signature. There was a lot of -- it was hard to pin him down.

GRACE: Oh, you`re hurting me. You`re hurting me just hearing that. So, yes, no, did Melville threaten a sanction against Geragos?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, no, I don`t think he threatened a sanction against Geragos. The sanction -- the sanctions were threatened against Tom Mesereau.

GRACE: OK. Back to you, Renee Rockwell. Sanctions, I mean, I don`t know about you, but I`ve been held in contempt. Nothing happened. The worst thing that`s going to happen is Mesereau, if he -- he got it over on the judge. He had Geragos testify on direct to whatever they wanted him to. Then when it came time for cross, Geragos says, oh, it`s a limited waiver of attorney-client privilege, I`m not going to answer any more question, I don`t care if you order me to. So basically, the defense got what they wanted. The judge is over a barrel, he`s threatening a sanction against not Geragos, but Mesereau. Big, fat, hairy deal, Renee.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, the judge said that he could do one of two things, or he`s thinking about it, right? He said, maybe I`ll just have the testimony stricken. Well what does that do? That just makes the jury think a little bit harder about exactly what the testimony was. The second thing he said he could do is impose a sanction against Mesereau. So what? He takes his checkbook out. Who pays for it anyway? Jackson. You just send the tap to the Jackson team. Not very effective. They got it over on the court and it`s absolutely a home run for the defense.

GRACE: Anne Bremner, what about it?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: You know, Jim Moret and I briefed the international press and we both said strike the testimony or very severe sanction. By the way, I try to sit by Jim and Jane, but I get kicked out for talking and not wearing my name tag, so I`m not always in there with them. But you know, this is -- you know, when you lie to a judge, Nancy, you know, lying to a federal judge is a felony. You know, you can get disbarred, it`s called candor to the tribunal. This should have been a heavy sanction, it should have been muted out immediately, and I think, the testimony stricken, jurors follow the court`s instructions and if you say disregard it, they will. But here`s the hammer.

GRACE: Oh, Anne, Anne, Anne...

BREMNER: They will.

GRACE: You sweet, sweet, sweet girl.

BREMNER: Oh, Nancy, I know.

GRACE: I would never -- I would never ask the judge to strike the testimony, because he gives this big, long, legal explanation. Joe Episcopo, this one time, back me up on this. You know when a judge tells the jury, now you remember all that evidence you heard from Mark Geragos, all that long testimony that helped Michael Jackson? Don`t pay any attention to that in the jury room. I would not have that stricken of. I`d just let it go at this point. The prosecution got a spanking.

EPISCOPO: Well yeah. And you know what? He didn`t lie to the judge. The prosecution didn`t pin them down on the agreement. That`s not a lie. And you know what? It`s not pulling a fast one. It`s a strategy that was successful. And furthermore, Geragos can`t answer about the passports, because he said he didn`t know how they got there.

GRACE: Well, they`re in his office, in his locker, Joe.

EPISCOPO: So what? There`s a lot of people in that office. He doesn`t know everything that`s in there.

GRACE: I bet you know what`s in your office in your locker.

EPISCOPO: No, I don`t. I`ve got so much junk in there I can`t find half of it.

GRACE: I bet you do. I bet you if you had a whole family`s passports and identification, you`d know darn well where it is.

EPISCOPO: What you`re saying is that he`s a liar? You`re saying he committed perjury?

GRACE: I`m saying that he knows how the passports got there.

EPISCOPO: So, he`s a liar?

GRACE: I`m also.

EPISCOPO: He committed perjury? Right? Why don`t you say it? Geragos committed perjury. Come on, say it.

GRACE: Can we get back to the points at trial instead of piling on, on Geragos? Quickly back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, I`m stunned that the judge has allowed this to happen, but it has. Let`s move on. What comes next?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the talk today was that this defense case could be nearing an end, possibly as early as Tuesday, now. That`s what the prosecution suggested when they started asking for more evidence from the defense and the judge, in fact, gave them that little gift at the end of the day. We`re going to hear from "Rush Hour II" star, Chris Tucker, possibly as soon as Monday and then Jay Leno on Tuesday, possibly the end.

GRACE: And very quickly to Caryn Stark. How will the jury react to people like Jay Leno testifying?

STARK: I think that they`re really going to believe the things they have to say, Nancy, for the same reason parents entrusted their children with Michael Jackson. If you have celebrity in this country, it means everything. And these are very famous people who will get credibility just because of who they are.

GRACE: Quick break. We`ll be right back. We are live in Santa Maria. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LENO: Well, Larry King was supposed to testify, today. They turned him away, the judge said no.

Now here`s Larry King, no watch, the buzzer goes off.

(BEEP)

LENO: Again.

(BEEP)

(ALARM)

LENO: Now look. Larry looks stunned. Now, look, he shakes hands -- he doesn`t want to be searched, but apparently, they start to search him.

(LAUGHTER)

LENO: A lot of guns, a lot of knives, some Garlique, yeah. Apparently, Larry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is "Tonight Show" host, Jay Leno, now on the defense list to be a witness next week. And of course, Larry King, who was turned away by Judge Melville, told his testimony would have been irrelevant. Welcome back, everybody. Day 57 in the Michael Jackson trial. Straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice."

You know, we talked about this from the get go. The defense has lasted much, much less time than was announced at the beginning. What do you think?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they`d originally said more than 250 witnesses, star studded list, Liz Taylor, Kobe Bryant, Stevie Wonder; Quincy Jones. All those people are falling by the wayside and now, of course, we understand, relatively, 100 percent for certain, we`re not going to see Michael Jackson on the stand and there were a lot of rulings that limited the people they could bring in. So, it`s sort of been paired away naturally. And I think the big picture is when it comes to the defense, less is more. A lot of people thought that the defense could have rested at the end of the prosecution`s case, and they got in trouble as their case proceeded when they brought in some young men who described their many nights of sleeping with Michael Jackson. So, I think less is more when it comes to the defense case.

GRACE: Jane-Velez, very quickly, how is the jury reacting to Geragos on the stand?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ve said it over and over again and I hate to be boring and repetitive. This is a hard jury to read. They`re very serious. They`re taking their responsibilities very seriously.

GRACE: OK.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They certainly paid attention, unlike, for example, the Neverland video, where I felt they were kind of looking around and weren`t that interested.

GRACE: Shots of Geragos coming into the courthouse, complete with cell phone and sunglasses, as always. Very quickly, out to Anne Bremner, of course, the state`s going to present a rebuttal. What will it be?

BREMNER: Well Nancy, it should be limited. I would not re-call the mother of the accuser.

GRACE: Oh, no.

BREMNER: I mean, yeah, once was enough. In fact, once was probably too much. And I think they regret that now. But I think a lot of very limited rebuttal. Some things in terms of his pattern evidence, a little bit with respect to Geragos, because they`re -- you know, this whole conspiracy really is out there.

GRACE: Yeah.

BREMNER: But, I think they`ll keep it tight, you know. They`re going to try one more time for character. Because they have got the dirt on Michael Jackson and that, you and I, I think I have agreed, those outtakes, open character, the judge ruled otherwise, but I think they`re going to try again, one more time in rebuttal, to bring in that character evidence to prior back acts of Michael Jackson.

GRACE: And to Renee Rockwell, speaking of Geragos, I think the state will have to bring on someone to respond to what Geragos said on his direct and cross-examination. Last chance at Geragos on direct and cross, what do you make of it?

ROCKWELL: Well, of course, I don`t think Geragos lied on the stand. He may have dodged a question and absolutely, Nancy, he`s just -- he`s a wonderful witness and he hit a home run for the defense. And of course, he did not lie. He just said he didn`t know how the passports got there. So, that`s fair. And they`ll never be able to prove otherwise.

GRACE: So, if you can`t prove or disprove the comment, then it is the truth?

ROCKWELL: Yeah. In law.

GRACE: Got to be.

ROCKWELL: According to the court of law, essentially.

GRACE: You`re darn right.

And to Jane Velez-Mitchell, you mentioned that there could be sanctions against Jackson`s defense lawyer, Mesereau. Like what, $100 check, a slap on the wrist? Ouch?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, a very esteemed lawyer sitting next to me, and Jim Moret is certainly an esteemed lawyer, I very much sit next to all the time and enjoy speaking with, but another lawyer told me if it`s more than $1,000, it has to get reported to the state bar, so I don`t think it`s so much the money, obviously, I think it`s more perhaps the embarrassment. But let`s face it, when it comes to this case, it`s all about winning and if it helps you win, I think that`s absolutely something he`s not going to lose any sleep over.

GRACE: OK, I`ve 30 seconds left. Jim Moret with "Inside Edition." Will Vinnie Amen take the stand to try to combat, for the state, what Geragos said for the defense and how?

MORET: No. I`ll tell you why. Because Vinnie Amen was -- they first offered limited -- limited immunity, but the prosecution team didn`t like what he said. They didn`t use him. The defense is trying to call him as a defense witness. The judge said the immunity doesn`t hold for him to take the stand for the defense, so he will probably, if he`s called, he`ll take the fifth, like so many other witnesses in this case. So no, I don`t expect Vinnie Amen will take the stand. That`s why this case has been shortened so much, too.

GRACE: I don`t think Amen will take the stand either. Everybody, he is hand in glove with Geragos and I think that they will open up a can of worms that cannot be cured in a simple rebuttal. Renee, 30 seconds left. Will there be an extended rebuttal?

ROCKWELL: I don`t think so, Nancy. You`ll never see Michael Jackson from this point on. I don`t think that the defense can do anything else, but just wrap it up. It`s clean. Of course, you know where I`m coming from. I don`t think there will be a conviction. I don`t think there will be an acquittal, maybe a hung jury, but not a conviction.

GRACE: That`s like Renee Rockwell, being firm, no conviction, no acquittal. OK, good opinion. Either way, you`re right.

Quick break, everybody. And to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man: William Willingham wanted in connection with a `98 rape and kidnap in Mississippi. Armed, dangerous, 43, 6`1", 180 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have info, call the FBI, 601-948-5000.

Local news is next for some of you, but we`ll be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Jackson trial weekdays, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on "Court TV`s Closing Arguments." Please stay with us as we remember an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, call 1-888-GRACE01. That`s 888-472-2301. Or go to the website cnn.com/nancygrace.

Man, what a week`s it`s been in America`s courtrooms. Let`s take a look back at some of the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE (voice-over): Just hours after a toddler`s mom, murder victim, Kristy Black`s funeral took place, her baby Justin, is found alive across the border in Mexico. A massive manhunt still underway for the boy`s stepfather, Ivan Villa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We promised her we would not give up hope on Justin, that we will continue to find him so she could rest in peace.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With everything that happened with Kristy, this is the bright light of everything.

GRACE: A 16-year-old confesses to gunning down his parents in their exclusively Chapel Hill home. The same weekend, he partied down at the high school prom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The father was shot three times. The mother shot twice.

GRACE: Each bullet, he pumped into his father`s head, he had to rerack it, gave him plenty of time to think about it.

The Michael Jackson child sex trial rages on. The defense, not going down without taking plenty of swings at the state.

The judge turns Larry King away from the witness stand. Here he comes, the soldier of the courtroom. Mark Geragos headed back to court. Still claiming he doesn`t have to answer questions on cross-exam, although he sang like a bird on direct. I wonder if Melville`s going to take away his sunglasses and cell phone.

No leads in the Idaho triple murder and the desperate search for 8 and 9-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene. Their father, begging for them to come home.

STEVE GROENE, CHILDREN`S FATHER: Please, please release my children safely. They had nothing to do with any of this. Release them in a safe area where the law enforcement can find them. Call the help line, let them know where they can be found. Please, we need the safe return of those children.

GRACE: A man brought in for questioning, released, leaving law enforcement back at square one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Big thank you to all of our guests, but biggest thank you to you for being with us tonight, inviting us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I`ll see you right here Monday night, 8:00 sharp. Until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired May 20, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, day five in the search for the perpetrator of the Idaho triple homicide and kidnap of an 8-year-old and 9- year-old from that same home. Hopes dashed as the only credible sighting of 8-year-old Shasta and 9-year-old Dylan Groene turns out to be false. We are live tonight in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, for the latest on the case.
And we go live to California. It`s Day 57 -- can you believe it -- in the Michael Jackson child sex trial.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Michael Jackson`s former lawyer, Mark Geragos, back on the witness stand for the defense. Jackson`s current lawyer gets it over on the trial judge, who is threatening legal action against Jackson`s defense team. And all signs are the defense plans to cut its own case short.

But first, to Idaho.

A sighting of 8-year-old Shasta, 9-year-old Dylan Groene is false. Tonight, we need your help to find these two missing children five long days after a brutal triple murder wiped out most of the children`s family.

Tonight, from Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, Kootenai County sheriff Rocky Watson; in Atlanta, defense attorney Renee Rockwell; in West Tampa, Florida, defense attorney Joe Episcopo; in New York, psychotherapist Caryn Stark.

But first, let`s go out to CNN correspondent Alina Cho. Alina, I`m sure everybody`s hopes dashed when we found out that report was false. What exactly was the report, and how was it discredited, Alina?

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, early this morning, we woke up, and we got this -- what we thought was good news, Nancy, as you know. And for most of the day, we thought it was.

Basically, what we had heard was that authorities in northern Idaho had reported a possible sighting of two children who resembled 9-year-old Dylan and sister, 8-year-old Shasta Groene. The sighting was at a pawn shop that sells sporting goods. The owner of the store had called in the tip, called 911, and said, "Listen, I think I may have seen these two children with a tall man in a light-colored, full-sized van."

The man asked for directions to Libby, Montana. The store is 70 miles north of here, by the way. And so immediately, authorities fanned out, called authorities in Montana, even Canada. And then there was no sighting of the van.

Of course, later we found out late this afternoon that it was what they are calling now an invalid sighting. What happened was that they showed the photos again of the children to the owner of the pawn shop. He said, "Listen, I believe that the boy that I saw had darker brown collar- length hair." Of course, 9-year-old Dylan has a blonde crew cut. So, they were able to, at that point, Nancy, discredit the report.

GRACE: To Sheriff Rocky Watson, Sheriff, you know how much we`ve been following this story. It must have broken your heart to find out that this tip -- not false -- I`m sure the person didn`t mean to call in a false information tip -- but it was invalid. How did you feel when you realized this was not Shasta and Dylan?

ROCKY WATSON, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF: We had our hopes up that we had located them, but since we have been advertising the tip-line and opened the emergency operations center, we have received 477 calls of information. And we would rather people make the call and let us sort it out. We would rather deal with several false calls or invalid calls than let those kids get passed us. We need to find them. And I believe they`re still alive.

GRACE: Sheriff, I understand that the processing of the scene has still been going on. Could you tell me a little bit about the DNA testing? Have you gotten any results?

WATSON: They`ll wrap up the test tonight or first thing in the morning. They`re packaging all that evidence. It will leave for Virginia. It won`t be in Virginia until Monday. The FBI has is assuring us a 72-hour turn around on the DNA evidence. So we won`t even have it back until the middle or latter part of next week.

GRACE: Well, of course, there`s several types of DNA testing. You have the PCR-Polymerase chain reaction that you can get back. It`s less conclusive, but it is conclusive. You can get it back in three days. Is that the type of DNA test you`re going to have run in Quantico?

WATSON: I`m leaving that up to the experts. I`m not sure what they`re doing. But they`re sorting this out, because they don`t know which samples are victim samples, which samples may be suspect samples. This is going to be a very in-depth -- but we hope it will give us a lot of new information and more defined direction on this investigation.

GRACE: So back to CNN correspondent Alina Cho. It sounds to me -- and I know that the sheriff can`t comment directly on the evidence tonight -- but it sounds to me, Alina, that there may be blood from the suspect, or at least we can hope?

CHO: Well, we would suspect and, hopefully, we will find out in the next 72 hours or so, Nancy. That evidence, I should mention, is going to be shipped out in mass, either today, but, likely, it`s looking like Monday, to Quantico, to the best crime lab in the nation, as you know.

What I can tell you -- what`s going on right now is that crime scene investigators have already boarded up the house behind me. They`ve put up crime scene tape, and they are essentially sealing off the house. There are still some FBI technicians still there on the scene, still doing their work.

But once they are finished, they will be able to immediately lock the door and seal it up. So the sheriff told me just a moment ago they`re hoping that will happen sometime later today, later tonight. But it could go into tomorrow.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAPTAIN BEN WOLFINGER, INVESTIGATING TRIPLE HOMICIDE: I know that the investigators -- I talked to the investigative supervisors a little while ago. They have got lots of leads they`re working on. They`re still processing evidence.

Things are moving forward. People are calling in. We`re getting hundreds and hundreds of tips on our tip line. And they`re able to follow- up on all of those. They have got a team of investigators, from multiple agency, the sheriff`s office, the state police and the FBI all working, following up those leads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: We are talking about Dylan and Shasta Groene, still missing. It`s five long days now. The alternatives are lessening, and hope is dimming. A tip this morning, a sighting of the kids, turned out to be invalid. It wasn`t these kids.

Take a look, Dylan and Shasta Groene. It nearly broke my heart when I heard the description of Shasta, 3`10", 40 pounds, Dylan, 4-feet-tall, 60 pounds. These children now missing five days.

Back to Alina Cho, CNN correspondent. Alina, it was amazing to me that there had been some type of a barbecue or get-together at the family home on Sunday. One of the last people there, I guess, was a person of interest, Robert Roy Lutner. He has been released.

But here is my question, Alina. Why didn`t these people all come forward and say, "We were at the barbecue. These are all the people that were there. This is what time we left." I`ve got a J.D. I don`t have a DDS. I don`t know how to pull teeth. Why didn`t these people come in and volunteer? Why did the sheriffs have to go out and extract the information from them?

CHO: I know. Isn`t that interesting? I`ve been asked that question all day, Nancy. And it`s one of the biggest questions that we are still trying to answer.

Here is what I can tell you. Captain Wolfinger, who, as you know, was a guest on your show last night...

GRACE: Yes.

CHO: ... had said to me earlier, "You know, listen, if you are at this barbecue, it`s in the afternoon. Nothing happens while you are at that barbecue. You might think in your own mind, `Listen, what information could I offer if I call in to authorities? Nothing happened while I was there.`"

Of course, that`s when the sheriff -- that`s when the captain came out and said, "Don`t do that. Please call in. Anything you might be able to tell us could be helpful." And also, keep in mind, Nancy, as you well know, that as they are gathering evidence, possibly even fingerprints, it is crucial that these people call in so that they are able to eliminate themselves as possible suspects or at least persons of interest.

GRACE: Right. Take a listen to this, Alina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: I don`t know if we`re at the stage where we can talk about it, if it`s premeditated or if it was spur-of-the-moment. That`s going to take a total analysis of the evidence and all the circumstances of the case.

As these people follow those leads, they`ll start to build that case. And they can -- when they get to that conclusion and get a suspect, they`ll be able to tell us whether it was premeditated or if it was spur-of-the- moment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Kootenai County Sheriff Rocky Watson. Sheriff, do we know what time that barbecue ended, what time the last person left? I mean, it`s got to help you establish some kind of a timeline.

WATSON: The investigators are working on a timeline on all the data that they`ve acquired now. But no, I don`t know what time the barbecue wrapped up and when they dispersed from there.

GRACE: OK. We are taking a quick break. When we come back, we`re going to find out what the search was today, where they are searching. There are dive efforts going on. And a reward is in place, up to $70,000, for any help finding these two children, Dylan and Shasta Groene. Their family basically wiped out by a killer, and now they are missing.

Elizabeth, can you show Dylan and Shasta, please?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE GROENE, FATHER OF MISSING CHILDREN: If they can see me or hear me, I want them to know that -- and I know that they know I love them, and I need them back with me. Everybody`s praying for them. And all I can tell them is just please hang in there. This will be over soon. They`re coming home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM DOBLE, AUNT OF MISSING CHILDREN: They are with each other. I know they`ll help each other. They know they have got family back here that care about them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Welcome back, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

The search goes on for 8- and 9-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene, their family wiped out by a killer in Idaho, Coeur d`Alene, Idaho. Let`s go straight to the location.

Standing by, CNN correspondent Alina Cho. Tell me about the search today.

CHO: Well, Nancy, we can tell you that, at this hour, the auxiliary Coast Guard is actually canvassing the shore line, 74 miles around Lake Coeur d`Alene, any place the sheriff told me where you could possibly dump a body, God forbid. But that is going on right now.

There were no ground searchers. These searchers who are well-trained, by the way, are all volunteer and they`re all exhausted, as you might imagine. They have been searching literally shoulder-to-shoulder. Some dive teams were out today, as the captain said, to do some double-checking, but so far, there has been nothing, Nancy.

GRACE: Sheriff Watson, I know statistically that, as the hours wear on, it`s less and less likely that Shasta and Dylan are alive. But it`s also -- it gives me hope that they were taken out of this murder scene.

What`s your professional take on it tonight? Do you think there`s still hope they`re alive?

WATSON: I do believe. I need to believe they`re still out there alive. There`s always those few cases where children have been recovered days, weeks, years later. And I`m hoping for that.

GRACE: Let me go to veteran defense attorney Renee Rockwell, who has handled kidnapping and murder cases. Renee, perpetrator or perpetrators, thoughts?

RENEE ROCKWELL, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, it seems like that, since there were three people in the house, and they were bound, and bludgeoned to death, non-forced entry, that there could possibly be more than one perpetrator. Now, the FBI is involved in this, which is a bit unusual, because this is a local crime.

However, because there`s a kidnapping, and there`s a great chance that these children were moved across state lines, the FBI gets involved. The good thing about that is there`s an incredible amount of resources. And you well know that the DNA -- there will be quick testing. Everything has gone to Quantico, just a much heftier investigation because the FBI is involved.

GRACE: You know what, Sheriff Watson? She`s right. You can`t get a better crime lab, as you pointed out, than Quantico, Sheriff. And the reality is, it`s a lot harder to attack that DNA results when it`s coming out of Quantico. Would you agree? Is that why the results are -- the evidence is being sent to Quantico, because the feds are involved?

WATSON: The feds offered their lab. We had the choice of the federal lab or the state lab. And because of the sheer mass of evidence we have got, we wanted to keep all the evidence out of a single lab, or at a single lab. And so the two professionals, you know, the Idaho state police and FBI, determined it would go to Quantico.

GRACE: Sheriff, I hear the traffic in the background. But I`ve got a lot of questions for you tonight. And I don`t want to jeopardize your investigation at all. But has the search been expanded past your state boundary, up into Canada even?

WATSON: The Amber Alert has went into Canada. And that aspect of it has expanded. We asked the FBI for help on their abducted and exploited children unit. They`ve got a lot of resources, a lot of expertise in there. And they bring a lot into the investigation.

GRACE: Let`s go down to Joe Episcopo, veteran lawyer out of West Tampa, Florida. Joe, do you think it`s perpetrator or perpetrators?

JOE EPISCOPO, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s more than one person. And you know, somebody has got to control these two children. Somebody has got to watch them while somebody goes out and gets food and things of that nature. And just the fact that you had three people that were bound and brutally murdered, it looks like there was people they knew and more than one.

GRACE: You know what I find to be an interesting fact -- back to Alina Cho -- is that one of the cars outside, the door was partially open. And I`m just wondering if the children were coming into the home after the murders had gone down and they were grabbed out there? What other facts can you tell us, Alina, to shed some light for us?

CHO: Well, here is what we can tell you. And it was quite shocking, quite frankly, when I heard it early this morning. Captain Wolfinger was on one of our earlier shows on "AMERICAN MORNING." And he at one point said, you know, this was a horrible thing for the children to witness.

And our colleague, Bill Hemmer, had asked, "Wait a minute. You said something interesting there. Do you believe that the children witnessed this crime?" And he said, "Yes, I believe they did," which was quite surprising. We had not heard that before. But he does, indeed, believe that the children witnessed the murders. What happened afterwards, Nancy, is a big, open question.

GRACE: Sheriff, why does law enforce enforcement think the children witnessed the murders?

WATSON: That`s speculation. It`s just our experience from what we see in the crime scene. We have got no evidence to document that yet, but...

GRACE: Well, did you see something...

WATSON: We do form opinions.

GRACE: Yes, did you see something that gave you that opinion?

WATSON: No. No, we did not.

CHO: Nancy, I can tell you that Captain Wolfinger had said earlier, "Listen, this is a very small house." There was a large gathering there at the house, the barbecue. And they believe firmly that the children were there.

Now, again, like I said, what happened afterwards is an open question. And you know, they`re still trying to piece together all of that, including time of death, which, as you know, and you mentioned yesterday, is the key, it seems, right now.

GRACE: To Caryn Stark, psychotherapist. Caryn, the motivation to wipe out a family and then kidnap the children -- obviously, they could have killed the kids right there, right when they killed the other three family members. They didn`t. That gives me hope the kids are still alive, but why? What`s the motivation, Caryn?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, Nancy, to me, it would seem like it would be a sexual predator. I can`t imagine any other situation where they would leave a 13-year-old behind and yet take the two youngest children. And someone who is interested in molesting children would clearly be interested in younger children.

GRACE: But Caryn, why wouldn`t a child molester grab the kid on the way to school, or when the kid was at the shopping mall, or walking to the grocery store, riding their bike? Why do you have to commit triple homicide to snatch the kid?

STARK: Well, you`re not talking about your normal person, Nancy. I really believe that this is a homicidal person, but also someone who has a perversion, a sexual component. And maybe they took these children just as a token, the way they sometimes do, leaving a murder scene.

But I would believe that two younger children taken, and one who is 13 left behind, indicates to me that it`s somebody who has a sexual perversion, who is interested in these children sexually, unfortunately.

GRACE: Yes. The fact that a 13-year-old was left behind, I see your reasoning.

Quick break, everybody. We`ll be right back live in Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, when we get back.

Let`s go to "Trial Tracking": Today, prosecutors dropped charges against a man who confessed to killing 10-year-old Katie Collman. They are now focusing their attention on another man previously charged with molesting the girl. Police now charge Anthony Stockelman with Katie`s murder, after a DNA test of semen found on Katie`s body linked Stockelman to the crime.

Katie went missing for five days before her 10-year-old body was found 15 miles from home. Police stumped as to why Charles Hickman confessed to the murder.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLFINGER: Within the last hour, I spoke to officials from Boundary County. They wanted to clarify what exactly Dylan Groene looked like. Now, they had talked to the investigators involved and confirmed that Dylan Groene had blonde, crew-cut hair. The child spotted that was suspected to be Dylan had brown shoulder-length or collar-length hair. So we were able to rule this out as a valid sighting, unfortunately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Eight- and nine-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene still missing tonight. Let`s go straight out to Coeur d`Alene, Idaho.

Sheriff Watson, tell me what you can about this reward.

WATSON: The reward is just in the infant stage now. Many people, many concerned citizens and businessmen have called in and pledged money. They started putting it together.

Our neighboring community in Spokane, Washington, has a secret witness program. We`re going to partner with them and run it through that process. But we`re verifying the pledges versus the actual money. And there will be a reward posted for information leading to an arrest.

CHO: Nancy, I think an important point is that the sheriff told me a moment that they`ve been flooded with calls. Nearly 500 tips have come into the hotline. They have set up several phone lines. And it`s almost - - it would be very difficult to set up another phone line because they are still trying to work out all of the tips that they`re receiving.

They have 40 investigators working those tips. And they have not been able to go through all of them yet. And so, of course, when you post a reward, say $70,000 like they`re talking about, you`re going to get a flood of calls. And so they had said they`re not quite ready to do that yet. They have not exhausted all of their leads.

GRACE: You know, it sounds like they need more volunteers. I know volunteers are combing that shoreline you told us about, over 70 miles of lakeside shoreline are being combed by volunteers as we speak. But if you`re getting that many tips -- to Sheriff Rocky Watson, Sheriff, how many people are on your staff?

WATSON: My department is 200 employees. Only one-third of them work in the patrol division. But we have several volunteer units that make up about 200 volunteers. And our entire emergency operations center is taking -- these 477 calls are all volunteers. The searchers that were out here for the last three, four days, the posse and search and rescue unit, are all volunteers. The people checking the shoreline right now are volunteers.

GRACE: Very quickly, Alina, I have only got a few moments left. Do we have a phone number for tips or anyone that wants to contribute to this reward? It`s approaching $70,000.

CHO: I would have to defer to the sheriff on that one.

GRACE: There we go, 208 -- hold on. I see it -- 208-448-2293.

Thank you, Alina.

Thank you, sheriff.

The search goes on for Dylan and Shasta tonight. You see the number. The reward is climbing. Please help us.

We at NANCY GRACE, want desperately to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at Bobbi Crawford, murdered in Hampton, Iowa, November `99, mother, grandmother. Her family is still looking for her killer.

If you have info, call toll-free 888-813-8389.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, "TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO": Next Tuesday, I`ll be testifying in the Michael Jackson trial. I have to go up on Tuesday; I`m going to go up in the morning. You know, I`m going to call Michael Monday night. I just want to make sure we don`t wear the same outfit, you know, (INAUDIBLE) same arm band, same red jacket. Actually, I`ve been getting ready for the testimony. I`ve been practicing all week, drinking wine and looking at porno magazines, yeah, just to get ready, try to get into the feel of the testimony, you know.

KEVIN EUBANKS, TONIGHT SHOW MUSIC DIRECTOR: You`ve been practicing a while, huh, Jay?

LENO: Exactly. Yeah. In fact, I testify on Tuesday; my mom is going to testify on Wednesday that nothing happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is "Tonight Show" host Jay Leno, a -- allegedly a witness for the defense up on the stand next week. If he really wants to get ready for the trial, he should take a gander at this. This was taken out of a locked cabinet in Jackson`s home. It`s called "The Boy," I`ve told you about it before. It`s in evidence now. When this jury reads this, they`re going -- oh, thanks, Elizabeth. Thanks. Yeah, you need to mosaic the whole darn thing. I`m not even going to tell you what`s in this thing, but I was afraid I was going to be arrested for having it on the sex.

Welcome back, everybody. It is day 57 in the Michael Jackson sex trial. Tonight, in L.A., "Inside Edition`s" senior correspondent, Jim Moret is with us, he`s been in the courtroom from the get go.

High-profile Seattle trial lawyer, also been in the courtroom, Anne Bremner. But first, let`s go out to "Celebrity Justice" correspondent, Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, I`m afraid to ask. What happened in court today?

JANE VELEZ -MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, another dramatic and really emotion-packed day at the Michael Jackson trial. Mark Geragos, Michael Jackson`s former attorney, took the stand and was grilled, and I mean grilled, by prosecutors who aggressively demanded to know what he knew and when he knew it when it came to this alleged conspiracy to whisk the family away to Brazil.

Now, in a series of very nasty exchanges, Geragos insisted he did nothing improper or illegal. Yeah, he says, I hired a private investigator to look into this family, because I feared they were going to shake Michael Jackson down, but I didn`t tell the private investigator how to do his job and I didn`t know the details of his investigation. He insisted, for example, he had no knowledge of a secret. And prosecutors says, possible illegal, tape recording between the mother, a phone call, between the mother and one of the alleged uninvited coconspirators. Now, the very weakest moment for Geragos came when he had to admit that he discovered the family`s passports in a locker in his law office, but had no idea, he insisted, of how they got there.

GRACE: OK, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did you just say the family`s passports?

VELEZ -MITCHELL: I did.

GRACE: Were in a locker in Geragos` law office, but has no knowledge of how they got there?

VELEZ -MITCHELL: Yep. I did say that.

GRACE: OK. Who has the code to the locker?

VELEZ -MITCHELL: I don`t even know if it was locked. He said that, you know, he was very busy. He was working in the same timeframe on the Peterson case and he says he asked around his law office who put it there and he couldn`t find an answer to the question.

GRACE: Very quickly to Jim Moret.

Jim, what`s your take on what went down in court today?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Well my take, frankly, is that the defense pulled a fast one and got away with it and that`s with regard to the waiver of this attorney/client privilege. You remember last Friday, Mark Geragos came to trial and purportedly there was a waiver by Michael Jackson of this attorney/client privilege, which is what really enabled them to put Mark Geragos on the stand, because Mark Geragos was Michael Jackson`s attorney before Tom Mesereau. Then in the middle of cross- examination, after a break, Mark Geragos is handed a piece of paper, which really limits that waiver to a certain time, right after the arrest, and Geragos stops answering questions at that point.

Fast forward to this week. Mark Geragos said, "Your honor, I have received a waiver from Michael Jackson, it`s limited to up to the time of the rest, November 20, 2003. And even if you order me to answer questions of what happened after that, I won`t." So, Geragos really had the judge over a barrel. The judge could have stricken all of the testimony so far. He decided to go forward. And then as Jane said so eloquently, everything was fireworks. You know, I sit next to Jane. She make it is sound so much more exciting. I love the way she describes the courtroom, she brings it to life. She truly does. But, it was -- it was a grueling cross-examination. The prosecution is trying to put Mark Geragos in the middle of this conspiracy. And Mark Geragos is basically falling on the sword for Michael Jackson, saying, look, I told the private investigator to follow this family and that`s what led to the surveillance. I told.

GRACE: Very quickly, back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, did anybody bother to ask Geragos why he had the boy, the mom`s passports, locked in his locker in his law office? Why did they need their passports?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the prosecutors were questioning him with every ounce of their will, trying to trip him up, but he should have tap dancing shoes. He is one amazing tap dancer.

GRACE: Then why did he have the passports.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, he didn`t provide specific explanations. But, here`s the problem. You ask him a specific question, he gives you a vague answer, then there`s an objection from Tom Mesereau, then there`s a ruling from the judge and by the time that`s done, they have to read the question back, because they can`t remember what it was. It goes on like that for hour after hour, the jury is stressed out because they thought they were going to have today off, so everybody`s aware that this jury wants to leave.

GRACE: So, wait, wait, wait. I don`t care about that. I want to hear why did -- do you know where your driver`s license is tonight, Jane Velez-Mitchell? I know where mine is. It`s right down here in my pocketbook. I know where my passport is. It`s squirreled away in my apartment. Why did Geragos have this family`s passport? Why were all their possessions put in a storage unit? Why did he refuse to give them back their stuff?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: This sounds like the cross-examination. I`m Geragos and you`re the prosecutor.

GRACE: And I`m getting nowhere.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly.

GRACE: So, we never got an answer, did we?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, there were letters. The prosecution produced a series of letters, for example, saying, here`s the attorney for the mother demanding these passports back and Geragos was like, well, I`m not sure that`s an accurate letter, it has no letterhead, I don`t recognize the signature. There was a lot of -- it was hard to pin him down.

GRACE: Oh, you`re hurting me. You`re hurting me just hearing that. So, yes, no, did Melville threaten a sanction against Geragos?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, no, I don`t think he threatened a sanction against Geragos. The sanction -- the sanctions were threatened against Tom Mesereau.

GRACE: OK. Back to you, Renee Rockwell. Sanctions, I mean, I don`t know about you, but I`ve been held in contempt. Nothing happened. The worst thing that`s going to happen is Mesereau, if he -- he got it over on the judge. He had Geragos testify on direct to whatever they wanted him to. Then when it came time for cross, Geragos says, oh, it`s a limited waiver of attorney-client privilege, I`m not going to answer any more question, I don`t care if you order me to. So basically, the defense got what they wanted. The judge is over a barrel, he`s threatening a sanction against not Geragos, but Mesereau. Big, fat, hairy deal, Renee.

ROCKWELL: Nancy, the judge said that he could do one of two things, or he`s thinking about it, right? He said, maybe I`ll just have the testimony stricken. Well what does that do? That just makes the jury think a little bit harder about exactly what the testimony was. The second thing he said he could do is impose a sanction against Mesereau. So what? He takes his checkbook out. Who pays for it anyway? Jackson. You just send the tap to the Jackson team. Not very effective. They got it over on the court and it`s absolutely a home run for the defense.

GRACE: Anne Bremner, what about it?

ANNE BREMNER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: You know, Jim Moret and I briefed the international press and we both said strike the testimony or very severe sanction. By the way, I try to sit by Jim and Jane, but I get kicked out for talking and not wearing my name tag, so I`m not always in there with them. But you know, this is -- you know, when you lie to a judge, Nancy, you know, lying to a federal judge is a felony. You know, you can get disbarred, it`s called candor to the tribunal. This should have been a heavy sanction, it should have been muted out immediately, and I think, the testimony stricken, jurors follow the court`s instructions and if you say disregard it, they will. But here`s the hammer.

GRACE: Oh, Anne, Anne, Anne...

BREMNER: They will.

GRACE: You sweet, sweet, sweet girl.

BREMNER: Oh, Nancy, I know.

GRACE: I would never -- I would never ask the judge to strike the testimony, because he gives this big, long, legal explanation. Joe Episcopo, this one time, back me up on this. You know when a judge tells the jury, now you remember all that evidence you heard from Mark Geragos, all that long testimony that helped Michael Jackson? Don`t pay any attention to that in the jury room. I would not have that stricken of. I`d just let it go at this point. The prosecution got a spanking.

EPISCOPO: Well yeah. And you know what? He didn`t lie to the judge. The prosecution didn`t pin them down on the agreement. That`s not a lie. And you know what? It`s not pulling a fast one. It`s a strategy that was successful. And furthermore, Geragos can`t answer about the passports, because he said he didn`t know how they got there.

GRACE: Well, they`re in his office, in his locker, Joe.

EPISCOPO: So what? There`s a lot of people in that office. He doesn`t know everything that`s in there.

GRACE: I bet you know what`s in your office in your locker.

EPISCOPO: No, I don`t. I`ve got so much junk in there I can`t find half of it.

GRACE: I bet you do. I bet you if you had a whole family`s passports and identification, you`d know darn well where it is.

EPISCOPO: What you`re saying is that he`s a liar? You`re saying he committed perjury?

GRACE: I`m saying that he knows how the passports got there.

EPISCOPO: So, he`s a liar?

GRACE: I`m also.

EPISCOPO: He committed perjury? Right? Why don`t you say it? Geragos committed perjury. Come on, say it.

GRACE: Can we get back to the points at trial instead of piling on, on Geragos? Quickly back to Jane Velez-Mitchell.

Jane, I`m stunned that the judge has allowed this to happen, but it has. Let`s move on. What comes next?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, the talk today was that this defense case could be nearing an end, possibly as early as Tuesday, now. That`s what the prosecution suggested when they started asking for more evidence from the defense and the judge, in fact, gave them that little gift at the end of the day. We`re going to hear from "Rush Hour II" star, Chris Tucker, possibly as soon as Monday and then Jay Leno on Tuesday, possibly the end.

GRACE: And very quickly to Caryn Stark. How will the jury react to people like Jay Leno testifying?

STARK: I think that they`re really going to believe the things they have to say, Nancy, for the same reason parents entrusted their children with Michael Jackson. If you have celebrity in this country, it means everything. And these are very famous people who will get credibility just because of who they are.

GRACE: Quick break. We`ll be right back. We are live in Santa Maria. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LENO: Well, Larry King was supposed to testify, today. They turned him away, the judge said no.

Now here`s Larry King, no watch, the buzzer goes off.

(BEEP)

LENO: Again.

(BEEP)

(ALARM)

LENO: Now look. Larry looks stunned. Now, look, he shakes hands -- he doesn`t want to be searched, but apparently, they start to search him.

(LAUGHTER)

LENO: A lot of guns, a lot of knives, some Garlique, yeah. Apparently, Larry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is "Tonight Show" host, Jay Leno, now on the defense list to be a witness next week. And of course, Larry King, who was turned away by Judge Melville, told his testimony would have been irrelevant. Welcome back, everybody. Day 57 in the Michael Jackson trial. Straight back out to Jane Velez-Mitchell with "Celebrity Justice."

You know, we talked about this from the get go. The defense has lasted much, much less time than was announced at the beginning. What do you think?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, they`d originally said more than 250 witnesses, star studded list, Liz Taylor, Kobe Bryant, Stevie Wonder; Quincy Jones. All those people are falling by the wayside and now, of course, we understand, relatively, 100 percent for certain, we`re not going to see Michael Jackson on the stand and there were a lot of rulings that limited the people they could bring in. So, it`s sort of been paired away naturally. And I think the big picture is when it comes to the defense, less is more. A lot of people thought that the defense could have rested at the end of the prosecution`s case, and they got in trouble as their case proceeded when they brought in some young men who described their many nights of sleeping with Michael Jackson. So, I think less is more when it comes to the defense case.

GRACE: Jane-Velez, very quickly, how is the jury reacting to Geragos on the stand?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`ve said it over and over again and I hate to be boring and repetitive. This is a hard jury to read. They`re very serious. They`re taking their responsibilities very seriously.

GRACE: OK.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: They certainly paid attention, unlike, for example, the Neverland video, where I felt they were kind of looking around and weren`t that interested.

GRACE: Shots of Geragos coming into the courthouse, complete with cell phone and sunglasses, as always. Very quickly, out to Anne Bremner, of course, the state`s going to present a rebuttal. What will it be?

BREMNER: Well Nancy, it should be limited. I would not re-call the mother of the accuser.

GRACE: Oh, no.

BREMNER: I mean, yeah, once was enough. In fact, once was probably too much. And I think they regret that now. But I think a lot of very limited rebuttal. Some things in terms of his pattern evidence, a little bit with respect to Geragos, because they`re -- you know, this whole conspiracy really is out there.

GRACE: Yeah.

BREMNER: But, I think they`ll keep it tight, you know. They`re going to try one more time for character. Because they have got the dirt on Michael Jackson and that, you and I, I think I have agreed, those outtakes, open character, the judge ruled otherwise, but I think they`re going to try again, one more time in rebuttal, to bring in that character evidence to prior back acts of Michael Jackson.

GRACE: And to Renee Rockwell, speaking of Geragos, I think the state will have to bring on someone to respond to what Geragos said on his direct and cross-examination. Last chance at Geragos on direct and cross, what do you make of it?

ROCKWELL: Well, of course, I don`t think Geragos lied on the stand. He may have dodged a question and absolutely, Nancy, he`s just -- he`s a wonderful witness and he hit a home run for the defense. And of course, he did not lie. He just said he didn`t know how the passports got there. So, that`s fair. And they`ll never be able to prove otherwise.

GRACE: So, if you can`t prove or disprove the comment, then it is the truth?

ROCKWELL: Yeah. In law.

GRACE: Got to be.

ROCKWELL: According to the court of law, essentially.

GRACE: You`re darn right.

And to Jane Velez-Mitchell, you mentioned that there could be sanctions against Jackson`s defense lawyer, Mesereau. Like what, $100 check, a slap on the wrist? Ouch?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, a very esteemed lawyer sitting next to me, and Jim Moret is certainly an esteemed lawyer, I very much sit next to all the time and enjoy speaking with, but another lawyer told me if it`s more than $1,000, it has to get reported to the state bar, so I don`t think it`s so much the money, obviously, I think it`s more perhaps the embarrassment. But let`s face it, when it comes to this case, it`s all about winning and if it helps you win, I think that`s absolutely something he`s not going to lose any sleep over.

GRACE: OK, I`ve 30 seconds left. Jim Moret with "Inside Edition." Will Vinnie Amen take the stand to try to combat, for the state, what Geragos said for the defense and how?

MORET: No. I`ll tell you why. Because Vinnie Amen was -- they first offered limited -- limited immunity, but the prosecution team didn`t like what he said. They didn`t use him. The defense is trying to call him as a defense witness. The judge said the immunity doesn`t hold for him to take the stand for the defense, so he will probably, if he`s called, he`ll take the fifth, like so many other witnesses in this case. So no, I don`t expect Vinnie Amen will take the stand. That`s why this case has been shortened so much, too.

GRACE: I don`t think Amen will take the stand either. Everybody, he is hand in glove with Geragos and I think that they will open up a can of worms that cannot be cured in a simple rebuttal. Renee, 30 seconds left. Will there be an extended rebuttal?

ROCKWELL: I don`t think so, Nancy. You`ll never see Michael Jackson from this point on. I don`t think that the defense can do anything else, but just wrap it up. It`s clean. Of course, you know where I`m coming from. I don`t think there will be a conviction. I don`t think there will be an acquittal, maybe a hung jury, but not a conviction.

GRACE: That`s like Renee Rockwell, being firm, no conviction, no acquittal. OK, good opinion. Either way, you`re right.

Quick break, everybody. And to tonight`s "All Points Bulletin." FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man: William Willingham wanted in connection with a `98 rape and kidnap in Mississippi. Armed, dangerous, 43, 6`1", 180 pounds, black hair, brown eyes. If you have info, call the FBI, 601-948-5000.

Local news is next for some of you, but we`ll be right back. And remember, live coverage of the Jackson trial weekdays, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern on "Court TV`s Closing Arguments." Please stay with us as we remember an American hero.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: If you are a crime victim with a story to tell, know of an injustice or a case that needs a spotlight, call 1-888-GRACE01. That`s 888-472-2301. Or go to the website cnn.com/nancygrace.

Man, what a week`s it`s been in America`s courtrooms. Let`s take a look back at some of the people who touched our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE (voice-over): Just hours after a toddler`s mom, murder victim, Kristy Black`s funeral took place, her baby Justin, is found alive across the border in Mexico. A massive manhunt still underway for the boy`s stepfather, Ivan Villa.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We promised her we would not give up hope on Justin, that we will continue to find him so she could rest in peace.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With everything that happened with Kristy, this is the bright light of everything.

GRACE: A 16-year-old confesses to gunning down his parents in their exclusively Chapel Hill home. The same weekend, he partied down at the high school prom.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The father was shot three times. The mother shot twice.

GRACE: Each bullet, he pumped into his father`s head, he had to rerack it, gave him plenty of time to think about it.

The Michael Jackson child sex trial rages on. The defense, not going down without taking plenty of swings at the state.

The judge turns Larry King away from the witness stand. Here he comes, the soldier of the courtroom. Mark Geragos headed back to court. Still claiming he doesn`t have to answer questions on cross-exam, although he sang like a bird on direct. I wonder if Melville`s going to take away his sunglasses and cell phone.

No leads in the Idaho triple murder and the desperate search for 8 and 9-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene. Their father, begging for them to come home.

STEVE GROENE, CHILDREN`S FATHER: Please, please release my children safely. They had nothing to do with any of this. Release them in a safe area where the law enforcement can find them. Call the help line, let them know where they can be found. Please, we need the safe return of those children.

GRACE: A man brought in for questioning, released, leaving law enforcement back at square one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Big thank you to all of our guests, but biggest thank you to you for being with us tonight, inviting us into your homes. Coming up, headlines from around the world. I`m Nancy Grace signing off for tonight. I`ll see you right here Monday night, 8:00 sharp. Until then, good night, friend.

END