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Nancy Grace

FBI Lab Results Indicate Groene Children May Be Alive; Michael Jackson Trial Continues

Aired May 26, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a stunning development out of Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, and the case of two missing children, 8- and 9-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene. FBI lab results indicate the children could still be alive. Basically their whole family wiped out, murdered. The two children still missing from the home.
And the state refuses to rest in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. California prosecutors are battling back against the defense.

And tonight, a mother accused in the murder of her own daughter by cutting off the little girl`s arms, following in the footsteps of Andrea Yates and Deanne Laney, all claiming God told them to kill their children.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

A woman who placed a 911 call after cutting off her own little girl`s arms is declared mentally competent to stand trial on capital murder charges. Texas mom Dena Schlosser could face the Texas death penalty. Defense? She`s blaming God.

And the Michael Jackson child sex trial rages on as the prosecution strikes back.

But first tonight, stunning developments from the FBI lab in Quantico suggest two missing children, 8- and 9-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene, could be alive tonight. Their mom, brother and the mom`s boyfriend bound and murdered in the home the same evening the two children went missing.

Tonight, in Coeur d`Alene, Captain Ben Wolfinger; in L.A., defense attorney Debra Opri; in West Palm Beach, Florida, defense attorney Michelle Suskauer; and in New York, clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders.

But first, on the phone from Spokane, Washington, KGA Radio news director, Dan Mitchinson.

Out to Dan. Dan, bring us up-to-date, friend.

DAN MITCHINSON, 1510 KGA RADIO: Well, we started getting -- or at least the FBI and local law enforcement officials started getting preliminary DNA results back from the FBI lab in Quantico yesterday and today. And what we know right now is that, according to the investigators, the blood is from the three victims who were found, as you mentioned, bound inside the home last week, the mother, her 13-year-old son, Slade, and the mom`s boyfriend, Mark McKenzie. But none of the blood apparently has matched from the two children who are still missing.

GRACE: Also with us tonight, Captain Ben Wolfinger. He`s with the Kootenai County Sheriff`s Department.

Welcome, Captain. Could you tell us more...

CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Thank you, sir. Could you tell us more about the lab results out of Quantico?

WOLFINGER: Yes, the preliminary lab results on blood samples that were sent back over the weekend showed that the blood was only from the three victims, just from the 13-year-old Slade, Brenda, and Mark McKenzie. There is no blood identified with the children, either Shasta or Dylan. And that just reinforces our belief and our hope those children are still alive and still out there for us to be found and bring home.

GRACE: Captain, how many tips have you received as of tonight?

WOLFINGER: A little over 1,100, Nancy.

GRACE: And how are your people holding up? How many volunteers do you have? I know the FBI have sent some additional workforce for you.

WOLFINGER: Well, we have about 70 investigators working the case right now, about another additional 80 personnel, both paid and volunteer - - about 60 of those are volunteers -- that have come in to help us, answer the phones, feed the investigators, do whatever needs to be done to make this thing move forward.

GRACE: Back to Dan Mitchinson, with 1510 KGA Radio. Regarding the decision to send the forensic evidence to Quantico, agree or disagree, Dan?

MITCHINSON: Oh, I think the public agrees, as Captain Wolfinger has pointed out, this has been an operation that the whole community has come. And they realize that they have the best instruments that we have, and some of the best people in the business are back there in Virginia.

So it`s certainly not an ego thing. They want to find these two children. They want to find out who did this. And that is obviously the first place you want to start is back there.

GRACE: Captain Wolfinger, about how many samples, about how many bags of evidence, did you send to Quantico?

WOLFINGER: Oh, I couldn`t tell you how many bags, but I can tell you it filled a U-Haul truck. So there`s a massive amount of evidence that went back to Quantico. This is just the first round of results, and certainly just the first round of evidence that has to be processed there.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDY HOAGLAND, AUNT OF SHASTA AND DYLAN: Our prayers are that we`re going to find that these two children are somewhere, that they`re alive, and that they`re healthy. And we just want them to be brought back to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The big news tonight out of Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, is that some preliminary results are back from Quantico. The FBI lab suggesting that the children`s blood is not in the home.

Straight back to Captain Ben Wolfinger. Explain to us, Captain, the significance of this finding.

WOLFINGER: Well, what it does, Nancy, is it reinforces our belief that the children were not harmed in the home, and they were taken from the home, and not killed, and then transported somewhere else. That gives us the hope and reinforces the hope for all the people involved, the investigators, the volunteers, and the entire community here in Coeur d`Alene, that Shasta and Dylan Groene are alive and they`ll be coming home here soon.

GRACE: Captain, where are the investigators searching now?

WOLFINGER: Well, some of the investigators, about 30 of the investigators, are detailed to the sanitary landfill here in the county. Last week, we isolated the trash from the dumpster sites near the home into about a half-acre area of the landfill.

Now, those investigators have cordoned that off, isolated it, gridded it out. And now they`re searching that hand-by-hand, piece-by-piece, going through looking for any evidence from this crime.

GRACE: Captain, how big did you say that landfill is?

WOLFINGER: Well, the landfill`s huge, but they isolated that trash to about a half-acre area. They anticipate it will take five to ten days to search that entire area.

GRACE: Captain, I remember when the search for Lori Hacking was going on in a huge landfill. Question, how did they isolate -- why did they isolate that particular part of the landfill?

WOLFINGER: Well, the investigators commonly search trash for evidence after a crime. They realize that criminals just throw things away, figuring they`re going to hide it from the police that way.

When they realize the morning after the find of the three bodies that the trash had been emptied and was emptied daily, they contacted the solid waste department and they are able to isolate where that truck emptied that trash on both those consecutive days. And it was in that half-acre area. Based on that, they were able to cordon that off and now search that area effectively.

GRACE: Captain, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM DOBLE, AUNT OF MISSING CHILDREN: I mean, it just can`t get any worse. My heart -- I know they`re coming back to us. They have to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Dan Mitchinson. He is the news director at 1510 KGA Radio. Dan, I realize this is a very big weekend for campers, and hikers, and tourists. I know that the police have asked for their help.

But I`m also concerned that it`s a double-edged sword, in that, if there is any forensic evidence along any of these trails to be found, that it will be ruined by campers and tourists.

MITCHINSON: Well, Captain Wolfinger has mentioned this several times at several press briefings, that if you see anything, report it. They don`t want you to touch it. They don`t want you to walk over it.

I mean, obviously, this is a very close-knit community. You`ve got people that care about these people. Several hundred people showed up last night for a memorial service in North Idaho. You don`t get something like happening every day.

But we`re expecting temperatures in the mid-80s over the next couple of days. A lot of people are going to be out for the unofficial start of summer. And basically, the captain has said that this may offer the family a little hope, an extra pair of eyes and some extra ears out there, something that they may have overlooked, or maybe they haven`t seen or didn`t think of.

GRACE: Captain Wolfinger, before I let you guys go, I want to find out, was there any blood discovered at the scene that did not match the family members, the boyfriend, or the children?

WOLFINGER: Well, not at this point. We haven`t been informed of any blood that didn`t match, just the three victims. But understand, too, that we haven`t completely analyzed all the evidence and all the blood samples yet.

GRACE: Captain Wolfinger, before we let you go, can you tell us anything else about the investigation? To me, this is very significant that the children`s blood is not at the scene. What do you think, Captain?

WOLFINGER: Well, I think that`s a good sign. I think the children are still out there. I personally have hope, renewed hope, that those children are out there and we`ll find them and bring them home.

And I think that news propped up all the investigators, all the people involved. They`re much more excited about the concept now that the children are still there, they`re still out there. We`re going to find them.

The investigation is moving along as fast as possible. With nearly 70 investigators involved, they`re using interview rooms at a variety of sites here, continuing to interview literally hundreds of people overall, following up on those tips, and as the lab results comes in, following up even further on the evidence that`s been provided.

GRACE: I want to thank Captain Wolfinger, Captain Ben Wolfinger with the Kootenai County Sheriff`s Office, still police-working around the clock, now joined by volunteers and the FBI.

Also, thank you to 1510 KGA Radio director Dan Mitchinson.

Gentlemen, good luck.

As we go to break, Elizabeth, let`s see the crane cam. Everybody, a guy -- oh, he`s still up there. A guy in Atlanta who allegedly killed his girlfriend in Florida has taken himself the top of this crane, totally blocking downtown traffic in Atlanta. Long story short, he`s holding himself hostage.

This is a live shot of the guy up on top of the crane. Police have been trying to talk him down. His name, Carl Edward Roland, age 41, climbed onto the crane around 4:00 p.m. on Wednesday. He is, again, holding himself hostage.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Michael Jackson, en route to court. Now, this was the day of armbands and military insignia. That changed. Now, there`s Brafman, and Geragos, who has, again, appeared in the courtroom. Now, that is quite the embroidery work.

Happy days for Michael Jackson, before he was charged with child molestation. Uh-oh, that`s after child molestation. The case still raging on.

The state not laying down and taking it. They are fighting back. The state has started its rebuttal case.

Tonight, let`s go straight out to Santa Maria, California, with "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell. Hello, friend. Bring me up-to-date.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, another bizarre and really tension-filled day here at the Michael Jackson trial. The prosecution tried to bring in some extremely graphic evidence, specifically photographs of Michael Jackson`s genitalia.

They contend that he has a unique blemish on his private parts. They claim that the `93 accuser was able to draw a picture of that blemish. And they claim that that would prove that their relationship was not innocent.

Now, the judge ruled against the prosecution, saying, quote, "I am going to deny the request to bring in the evidence of the blemished penis." Now, that was certainly the quote of the day, and a very awkward moment, because there`s Michael Jackson, his parents right there. It was extraordinarily uncomfortable.

Now, prosecutors did win the right to introduce a videotape of the current accuser talking to police for the very first time back in July of 2003. Prosecutors say this is going to show that he was spontaneous and not rehearsed by his mom as the defense contends. The defends says, "Well, now, we may well want to bring back not just the accuser himself, but his very controversial mother, and a key psychologist, and a key attorney." So this could drag on for quite some time.

GRACE: Translation, surrebuttal. That`s what you`re telling me. So today the judge basically split the baby. He allowed the prosecution to bring in a videotape, audiotape statement the boy gave police. I think the jury will see emotion, shame, discomfort from the little boy in that video.

On the other side of the fence, he threw the defense a bone and disallowed a photograph, a giant-sized photograph, enlarged for trial litigation purposes of Jackson`s genitalia, compared to -- let me get this straight -- what the little boy drew, correct?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The `93 accuser supposedly drew what the prosecutors called "the spot." And it was just -- I have to tell you. It was such a creepy moment in court. I mean, there is Michael Jackson sitting right there as everybody talks about his genitalia. It`s hard to describe what it was like to be part of all that.

GRACE: I don`t know. You`re doing a pretty good job, Jane Velez- Mitchell.

(LAUGHTER)

Here in the studio with me, I think we need a shrink yet again. Dr. Patricia Saunders is with us.

Dr. Saunders, I realize the judge`s ruling was based on his theory that seeing a picture of Jackson`s penis, genitalia, would be prejudicial, inflammatory. But the reality is, if there were unusual markings, if there were unique skin tone, a blemish, anything, and this `93 accuser could draw a picture of that, I find that highly probative. Explain how children that are too young to verbalize very often use artwork to explain a molestation.

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Precisely. And not even children who are too young to verbalize, even teenagers. The brain isn`t fully developed until people are really 20-years-old. It`s so much easier to represent and experience in visual form, in art.

GRACE: And of course, Jackson in the past has been extremely modest without his clothes on. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: I have been forced to submit to a dehumanizing and humiliating examination by the Santa Barbara County sheriff department and the Los Angeles Police Department earlier this week. They served a search warrant on me which allowed them to view and photograph my body, including my penis, my buttocks, my lower torso, thighs, and any other area that they wanted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was from the `93 child molestation charges, response by Jackson.

Debra Opri, Jackson family lawyer, is with us tonight. If he`s so shy, how does this `93 accuser know all the freckles, and the dots, and the this, and the that about his penis?

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, let`s just put it this way. Judge Melville was very clear in his ruling on the rebuttal evidence that this is not getting in.

Why is it not getting in? Because we have a wonderful evidence code which surpasses the new 1108 evidence code. It`s called evidence code 352. And if it`s prejudicial to the accused, it doesn`t get in.

I asked why the prosecution didn`t try to get this in under the case in chief, under the 1108 prior bad acts. I think they did, and I think the judge basically said at that time when he was limiting it -- I correct myself, they didn`t try to get it in.

So the judge basically narrowed his focus to say, on the rebuttal, in challenging the credibility challenges of the defense, are you going to consider this 352 evidence to be prejudicial? It`s prejudicial.

GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven.

To Michelle Suskauer, let me see if you can answer the question.

OPRI: I answered the question.

GRACE: How the heck -- I asked you, how did this boy in 1993, how was he able -- because don`t for one minute think if the boy -- the little boy`s drawing didn`t match his genitals, the defense would mind. They would go, "Oh, yes, we insist that you enter to show the boy had never seen Jackson`s penis."

If Jackson`s all modest, how did this kid -- how can he draw a picture of the penis?

MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, the state is getting incredibly desperate here.

GRACE: No, please, please, answer me.

SUSKAUER: And I agree with Debra. I agree with Debra.

GRACE: OK. You`re not going to answer me.

SUSKAUER: Why didn`t they enter -- I`m going to answer your question, Nancy, OK? But again, this little boy...

GRACE: Please answer.

SUSKAUER: I don`t know how he would know how to connect the dots if he didn`t see it.

GRACE: Well, think. I understand you`re an honor grad from law school. How do you think the little boy got that good a look at Jackson`s genitalia and could darn draw a picture of it for police?

SUSKAUER: I don`t know.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I think I have...

(CROSSTALK)

SUSKAUER: I don`t know, unless he had seen it.

GRACE: I know that hurt. I know that hurt deeply.

Back to Jane Velez-Mitchell. The state obviously lost a huge battle in not allowing this in. But again, Debra Opri, Michelle Suskauer are correct, this is the `93 accuser. How is the state going to bolster the current accuser?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me just say, vis-a-vis that photograph, I think the judge has always said they don`t want the prosecution in this case to be able to hang their hat on much better evidence from the past. They want to stay focused on this current accuser.

And that`s exactly what the prosecution will now be able to do when they introduce this videotape, which I think could come as soon as tomorrow. Both sides are now viewing this videotape and trying to edit it down, so that there`s not a lot of extraneous material on it, to about 40 minutes.

And we shall see if this boy is spontaneous. He`s certainly going to be younger than when he took the stand this time around. So when you`re younger, it`s a more sympathetic situation.

And of course, when you`re not sitting in front of an entire packed gallery and the jurors, and you`re just talking to a couple of cops, you might be a lot more believable and spontaneous. So it may very well work well for the prosecution.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We are live in Santa Maria and the latest in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Quick break.

But first, to "Trial Tracking." Today, the man accused of raping an 8-year-old girl leaving her to die buried in a dumpster is charged as an adult. Milagro Cunningham, who claims he is 17-years-old, he is from the Bahamas -- we don`t have a birth certificate -- allegedly snatched the little girl from her bedroom, beat and assaulted her, then tried to hide the crime by burying her under slabs of cement in a trash dump.

Police found her there hours later fighting for her life. If convicted, Cunningham could spend life behind bars.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": You know, I read in the paper today that Jackson`s legal team was disappointed with my testimony. In fact, Tom Mesereau, Michael`s lawyer, called me last night and said, "For Michael`s next molestation trial, we`re not having you back."

(LAUGHTER)

LENO: Lost another gig.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Jay Leno, "Tonight Show" host. He was a defense witness for Michael Jackson Tuesday.

I still say, Jane Velez-Mitchell, he was a state`s witness on cross- examination, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes. I mean, that`s what`s so bizarre about this case. The defense did pretty well during the prosecution case, and the prosecution did pretty well during the defense case. It`s an upside- down world here in the Michael Jackson trial.

GRACE: So what`s going to come next? Wait, wait, wait. Before I get what`s next, what about the attorney, Dickerman, on the stand? Hello? I thought that he and Mesereau were going to throw punches at each other.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. I`m so glad you got to that, because that was really the fireworks of the day after these rulings. It was a slugfest, a verbal slugfest.

This is a lawyer who represented the accuser`s mother and got into it with Tom Mesereau. Speaking of war of words, people are shouting over here at us as we talk.

But they got into a war of words. At one point, Dickerman said to Mesereau, "Is this microphone working? You`re not hearing me. Let`s stop playing games and get to the truth of the matter." It was ugly.

GRACE: I`m sorry, Jane. What were you saying? I got busy with some state`s evidence. It`s called "The Boy," and it`s full of naked photos of little kids. You know, Dickerman is very important for the prosecution because he came on the stand and said that he had written reams of letters and e-mails and sent phone calls to Geragos to get this family`s furniture, their visas, their passports, their papers out of storage.

I will go straight back to Jane Velez-Mitchell in just a moment.

But as we go to break, Vegas is hopping tonight. Odds are about even tonight that Michael Jackson will walk. But before you lay a bet, everybody, let`s see how the state`s rebuttal case goes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

GRACE: Elizabeth, that`s not very nice, to have Michael Jackson`s head spinning like that.

Well, as I was mentioning earlier, Vegas is hopping tonight, odds even, as of tonight, anyway, that Jackson will be acquitted, will walk free. But before you guys -- OK, Elizabeth, that`s really going too far.

Before you guys lay a bet, let`s see how the state`s rebuttal case goes, because after the rebuttal, there`s a pretty good possibility there`s going to be a surrebuttal. It`s like a tennis match.

We are live in Santa Maria with Jane Velez-Mitchell. Also with us is the Jackson family attorney, Debra Opri.

Speaking of Debra Opri, Elizabeth, was there something you wanted to mention?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRI: Michael Jackson is not, I repeat, Michael Jackson is not being charged with lewd conduct.

He is being charged with I think four counts of child molestation and counts of serving alcohol with the intent to molest and conspiracy, 28 counts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. I got crazy and did a little legal research. We`ve got four counts of lewd acts, one count of attempt lewd act, one count conspiracy, one count child abduction, one count false imprisonment. And I didn`t believe the wires. Oh, yes, four counts administering wine, basically the intoxicating agent, and one count extortion.

I was afraid my -- I couldn`t believe my own eyes, so I actually dug up the actual indictment.

Dusty (ph), can we -- Debra, are you listening? Here`s...

OPRI: Is that the indictment?

GRACE: Yes. Then you know things that the defense team doesn`t know.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Lewd act on a child, count three, lewd act on a child, count four, lewd act, count five, lewd act.

OPRI: And what is it defined as lewd, Nancy, sleeping with children?

GRACE: Well, what it says, actually, it doesn`t really come clean about the lewd act. It does say, lewd and lascivious act on the body and certain parts of John Doe, child under 14.

OPRI: That`s right. That`s right.

GRACE: So sleeping with this...

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: So, is what I said very different?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes. You said he was not charged with lewd act.

OPRI: When you look...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: He`s specifically charged with a lewd act.

OPRI: When you look at what`s going on here, you`re seeing both sides, the prosecution and defense, using lawyers to prove their case, you`re using past 1108 evidence to prove a case. And what you`re saying in terms of the lewd acts, you`re saying that just because he`s sleeping with a child, it`s against the law and it`s lewd act. It`s still not a lewd act, Nancy. Sleeping with a child is not a lewd act.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: If I didn`t -- Elizabeth, please.

OPRI: You want to play it again? I said he`s not...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRI: Michael Jackson is not, I repeat, Michael Jackson is not being charged with lewd conduct.

He is being charged with I think four counts of child molestation and counts of serving alcohol with the intent to molest and conspiracy, 28 counts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. And I can fax you this, this lewd act indictment.

But, Debra Opri, rather than rehash the indictment, I`ve got a question for you.

OPRI: OK.

GRACE: Something I don`t know the answer to. Do you think the defense is going to put up a surrebuttal?

OPRI: Absolutely.

GRACE: What will it be?

OPRI: Well, the surrebuttal is going to be witnesses to challenge the rebuttal witnesses. And, unfortunately, we`re going to see more lawyers. I mean...

GRACE: Oh.

OPRI: I`ve never seen so many lawyers on the stand to prove either side`s case. It`s getting ridiculous. And I`m a Jackson family attorney. I just think all these lawyers and the -- it`s just ridiculous.

GRACE: OK.

I`ve got to go on the record agreeing with Debra Opri on this one. The jury actually rolled their eyes today in court.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, putting lawyers on the stand, lawyer v. lawyer, does not go down well with a jury. They don`t trust lawyers to start with.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Especially a very exhausted jury. Everybody is feeling the tension. We talked about the fight between Bill Dickerman and Tom Mesereau today. People are exhausted. They thought, oh, this is coming to an end. Now it seems like it`s going to drag on longer. Tensions are high. Tempers are flaring.

And absolutely. I mean, people have gotten a lot of evidence here. The jurors have been taking notes. And I think that everybody kind of wants to wrap it up.

GRACE: What exactly happened with Dickerman? Dickerman is the -- I understand, the boys` family lawyer, who sent reams of letters, e-mails, phone calls to Geragos to get the family`s possessions back. Now, didn`t Mark Geragos say on the stand, I didn`t know they wanted the stuff back?

What happened? What did Dickerman say in court, Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, of course, it depends on who you talk to as to what happened. But, essentially, the way I understand it...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Were there letters?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Geragos took the stand and said, I didn`t really know about these passports, the existence of these passports until way after the case. And I was going through my locker and I found the passports. And they were in an envelope, implying he was very busy. He was handling the Scott Peterson case.

Well, today, on the stand today, Bill Dickerman, who represented the mother, said, I sent him numerous letters demanding these passports, saying, give us back these passports. And he was absolutely livid on the stand. Now, Tom Mesereau tried to counter, hey, your family, the family you represent, didn`t want to pay for all the items that were in storage. And we kept saying, are you going to pick up the tab for the items in storage?

So it went back and forth and back and forth. Basically, somebody is not telling the truth. And, if you ask Bill Dickerman, that somebody is Mark Geragos.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I`ve got a question. Into evidence today, did the state introduce letters written by attorney Dickerman to Mark Geragos asking for the family`s possessions out of storage, yes, no?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: There was new evidence, yes.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: That`s all I want to know. That`s all I want to know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: E-mails and phone calls.

GRACE: And on cross-examination, defense attorney Tom Mesereau takes one of the letters and goes, you didn`t sign this, huh? As if that were a big discovery. And Dickerman explained he signed the original and made a copy for his records and didn`t sign the copy. And the two nearly got into a fight.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It was probably one of the more vicious and angry -- one of the angriest fights I`ve seen since the trial started. And there`s been quite a few of them.

And that`s what I say. This is evidence that people are nearing the breaking point. Michael Jackson seems nearing the breaking point. He`s incredibly gaunt. His cheeks are sunken. He was hobbling out of court today. The reporters are stressed out, because nobody knows when this case is actually going to end. We get, well, it`s going to end in a couple of days, then it`s going to go on.

So, everybody`s up in the air. Nobody can make plans. And inside that courtroom, you just want to get a stomachache and a headache, because it`s almost palpable. It`s in the air, the tension that is filling that room.

GRACE: Back to Debra Opri, the Jackson family attorney. Do you think the state will reap as many rewards as it hopes by putting this video of the little boy...

OPRI: Yes.

GRACE: ... when it first went to police? But what kind of Pandora`s box will that open on surrebuttal?

OPRI: Well, the problem is this. You know, I believe, as a criminal defense attorney, that they should have expected that the prosecution was going to put this up.

I mean, Michael Jackson had his two-and-a-half-hour thing. He had the Neverland clip. So, what is this going to do for the defense`s responsibility to challenge? They`re going to have to analyze and attack the environment by which the boy was interviewed. Who was there? Who had spoken to him beforehand? Who had prepped him? What was he told to say? Where did he get his information?

And that`s why Larry Feldman probably is going to be called. That`s why the mother`s going to be called.

GRACE: Right.

OPRI: And that`s why the son`s going to be called.

I want to say one other thing. You are very, very -- you know, you enjoy throwing up montages and prior clips of comments I make. But I notice that, when I`m right, you never put up the clip saying, she was right.

Now, this thing about my comments about the lewd conduct, let`s just say, what the charges are and what I discussed yesterday really are different. Sleeping with a child was the issue. And sleeping with a child is not going to be argued or proven to be lewd conduct.

GRACE: That`s a really good point, Debra.

Elizabeth?

OPRI: Yes, well, repeat that tomorrow.

GRACE: Elizabeth, go ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What is your man, Michael Jackson, doing 365 nights snugged up with this kid?

OPRI: He playing like a little child. He`s hanging out with the guys. He`s having sleepovers. What do I -- what do I -- what do I know what Michael Jackson is doing 365, 365, 365 days a year, Nancy? Have you been there? Have I been there? Has anybody said or proven that he molested them? No. On the contrary, he has had these witnesses saying, nothing happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OPRI: You know, you`re making me a cult figure. God bless you, hon.

(LAUGHTER)

OPRI: God bless you.

GRACE: As much grief as I give Debra Opri and Michelle Suskauer, let me tell everybody, these two ladies are veteran trial lawyers.

OPRI: We`re alley cats, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, we`re all alley cats.

OPRI: We`re alley cats.

GRACE: And I enjoy fighting with them.

Hey, before we go to break, Elizabeth, can we go down to the crane cam? Still -- yes, he`s there. This is a 41-year-old man who has climbed up a crane. He is wanted in Florida for the alleged murder of his girlfriend. The woman died. Apparently, all we can get for information is from upper body trauma, Carl Edward Roland.

Hi, guy. You`re blocking traffic. He`s been on top of the crane since 4:00 p.m. Wednesday. Police have tried to talk him down. He`s holding himself hostage and threatening to kill the hostage.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

OPERATOR: OK, exactly what happened?

DENA SCHLOSSER, DEFENDANT: I cut her arms off.

OPERATOR: You cut her arms off?

SCHLOSSER: Mm-hmm.

OPERATOR: And how old -- is this your baby?

SCHLOSSER: Yes.

OPERATOR: And it`s a girl?

SCHLOSSER: Mm-hmm.

OPERATOR: Is she conscious?

SCHLOSSER: No.

OPERATOR: Is she breathing?

SCHLOSSER: No.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: That 911 call says it all.

Tonight, in Toronto, the stepfather of Dena Schlosser, Mick Macaulay, is with us.

Welcome, sir.

First to Collin County, Texas, and WFAA reporter Mary Ann Razzuk.

Mary, thank you for being with us.

MARY ANN RAZZUK, WFAA REPORTER: You bet.

GRACE: What happened?

RAZZUK: Well, Nancy, first of all, this week -- I want to update you on what happened. We found out this week doctors at North Texas State Hospital in Vernon, Texas, determined Dena Schlosser is now competent to stand trial in her capital murder case.

The mother of three was charged last year of killing her 10-month-old daughter, Margaret, by cutting off the infant`s arms. In February of this year, a Collin County jury took just nine minutes to determine she was not mentally capable of standing trial. So, she was sent to the mental hospital where she underwent intensive therapy and received increased dosages of medication for about three months.

Her attorney says he talked to Dena Schlosser last Friday and her mental state has improved. He thinks now she can help him prepare for her defense, which she couldn`t do several months ago, because she was confused, not responsive, and not understanding the situation she was in -- Nancy.

Let`s go to Mick Macaulay, Dena Schlosser`s stepfather.

Sir, thank you for being with us.

MICK MACAULAY, STEPFATHER OF SCHLOSSER: Hello, Nancy.

GRACE: What happened the day the baby was killed?

MACAULAY: My understanding of it is, is that, in the morning, John Schlosser, Dena`s husband, left for work, and for some reason chose to return a phone call back to the house. At that time, Dena indicated to him that she had hurt the baby.

He chose to call the family pastor, Davidson, who advised him to contact another member of the church who worked at a day care center. Her name was Carolyn Thomas (ph). And Carolyn Thomas in turn called Dena. And Dena indicated that she had harmed the baby, and that, at that point in time, Carolyn called 911.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Mr. Macaulay, when did you learn the infant had been killed?

MACAULAY: About 4:00 that afternoon.

GRACE: Had she been having mental or emotional problems leading up to this?

MACAULAY: Yes. For about a year prior to that time, we were aware of mental problems. They were often...

GRACE: OK.

Very quickly to Michelle Suskauer.

How often, Michelle, does the insanity defense work?

SUSKAUER: It does not work very often, unfortunately. But in this particular case -- and again, Nancy, I don`t know what`s going on in Texas with mothers who are harming their children. This is another Texas case.

In this particular case, it seems from the information that I`ve reviewed that this is a woman who was profoundly mentally ill. And, again, this is probably the best defense that her attorneys are going to be using in this particular case.

GRACE: Well...

SUSKAUER: I think that she was on Haldol. She`s had a prior suicide attempt. But, again, juries don`t like to excuse people from crimes such as these. That`s why it`s such a tough defense. But, in this particular case, she really does have a history of some mental illness there.

GRACE: Well, you brought up a really good point, Michelle Suskauer. In Texas, there have been several moms recently that have murdered their children and then blamed God for it.

I`m referring -- as did this mom. I`m referring specifically to Andrea Yates, who killed her five children by drowning, called police, had locked the doors to the home and systematically killed each child.

Also, Deanna Laney. Deanna Laney took her children out one by one and stoned them to death in the backyard, two little boys. Both of them blamed God for it.

Back to Dena Schlosser`s stepfather.

Is it true that your stepdaughter had tried to commit suicide in the past and was on medication?

MACAULAY: Indeed. After the birth of Maggie, she did attempt suicide and was placed on medication, Haldol.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What was the mode? What was the type of suicide attempt?

MACAULAY: I believe she cut her wrists.

GRACE: Cut her wrists.

To Dr. Patricia Saunders. Diagnosis?

SAUNDERS: Something rather rare. It`s called postpartum psychosis. Only about one or two women in 1,000 births have it. And it`s devastating.

There need not be any prior history of mental illness. And the birth itself triggers it. She`s got all the symptoms, homicidal, suicidal, paranoia, mood swings, delusions, hallucinations.

GRACE: Postpartum psychosis, as opposed to postpartum depression?

SAUNDERS: Yes. It`s a different entity.

GRACE: Back to WFAA-TV reporter joining us, Mary Ann Razzuk.

What do we know about her religious beliefs?

RAZZUK: Well, we actually talked to her pastor. And he actually denied that they had any close relationship with the Schlossers, nor did they -- nor were they regular members at the church. Her stepfather may actually know a little bit more about that.

My question, back to you, Mary Ann, is, reports have stated that she told her husband the night before the killing of the infant that she wanted her baby to go to God.

RAZZUK: That`s right. That`s right.

And he apparently didn`t think a thing of it and went to work the next day. And, as her stepfather told you, he -- she then called him at work, and he still was a little bit baffled by this. But he thought enough of it to head home immediately to try to find out and establish what was going on. There was one incident, though, prior -- a year prior in which there was a CPS investigation for neglect.

A neighbor or somebody, a witness, somebody in the apartment complex, called them, called authorities and said they saw her running down the street chasing her 5-year-old daughter on a bicycle. And then they returned to the apartment and found her maybe 2-month-old infant laying there unsupervised. So, that sort of prompted this investigation.

GRACE: Right.

RAZZUK: And, from what I understand, she received some psychiatric treatment after that, cleared by CPS in August before this incident.

GRACE: We`ll all be right back, everybody.

But first to tonight`s all-points bulletin. FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Keir Dulay Sanders, Sanders wanted in connection with the murders of his own grandparents, 40 years, 5`10``, 150 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes. There is an FBI reward. If you have any info on Keir Dulay Sanders, contact the FBI, 601-948-5000.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of the Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us, as we remember an American hero, 21-year-old Sergeant Brett Swank.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Carl Edward Roland, 41, is still atop a crane in downtown Atlanta, totally blocking traffic. So far, he has been talking to police. He has taken a nap. And he has accepted a jacket from the cops.

Dr. Patricia Saunders, will he jump?

SAUNDERS: Rule of thumb is, if they`re not talking to the cops, they`ll jump. If they`re talking to the cops, they probably won`t.

GRACE: Let me go back to Dena Schlosser`s stepfather. Schlosser is facing trial now. She`s been deemed competent to stand trial for the murder of her little girl, a 10-month-old child she murdered by cutting its arms off.

Mr. Macaulay, I really respect defending your stepdaughter. What do you think is the right outcome in this case?

MACAULAY: I think that there`s no question that Dena was insane at the time that she killed Maggie and that I think that she needs intensive treatment. I would hope that that would be the finding of the court.

GRACE: Mary Ann Razzuk with us.

Mary Ann, is she in a treatment facility or in jail awaiting trial?

RAZZUK: She will actually -- she`s at the mental facility right now and will be transferred in the next couple of weeks back to jail.

And we`re told that they will continue the medications that she was placed under at the mental facility, which I`m told are helping her significantly, which the defense attorney says is going to help him help her in the case, so that they can work together.

Now, one additional point I wanted to make out that her defense attorney is exploring, and that she had three invasive surgeries to drain fluid from her skull when she was a small child, I believe 8 and 13. And that`s one thing he wants to look into to try and determine if that had anything to do with her mental state of mind at the time of this incident.

GRACE: I don`t know. Mary Ann, if they play that 911 tape to the jury, she`s so calm. She`s so coherent. But, according to her stepfather, she did have a significant history of mental illness.

Thank you, Mary Ann.

And, sir, thank you very much for being with us.

I`m referring to Mick Macaulay, Dena Schlosser`s stepfather.

A 10-year-old infant girl murdered by her mom.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. And I hope to see you right here tonight, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And, until then, good night, friend.

END


Aired May 26, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, a stunning development out of Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, and the case of two missing children, 8- and 9-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene. FBI lab results indicate the children could still be alive. Basically their whole family wiped out, murdered. The two children still missing from the home.
And the state refuses to rest in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. California prosecutors are battling back against the defense.

And tonight, a mother accused in the murder of her own daughter by cutting off the little girl`s arms, following in the footsteps of Andrea Yates and Deanne Laney, all claiming God told them to kill their children.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

A woman who placed a 911 call after cutting off her own little girl`s arms is declared mentally competent to stand trial on capital murder charges. Texas mom Dena Schlosser could face the Texas death penalty. Defense? She`s blaming God.

And the Michael Jackson child sex trial rages on as the prosecution strikes back.

But first tonight, stunning developments from the FBI lab in Quantico suggest two missing children, 8- and 9-year-old Shasta and Dylan Groene, could be alive tonight. Their mom, brother and the mom`s boyfriend bound and murdered in the home the same evening the two children went missing.

Tonight, in Coeur d`Alene, Captain Ben Wolfinger; in L.A., defense attorney Debra Opri; in West Palm Beach, Florida, defense attorney Michelle Suskauer; and in New York, clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders.

But first, on the phone from Spokane, Washington, KGA Radio news director, Dan Mitchinson.

Out to Dan. Dan, bring us up-to-date, friend.

DAN MITCHINSON, 1510 KGA RADIO: Well, we started getting -- or at least the FBI and local law enforcement officials started getting preliminary DNA results back from the FBI lab in Quantico yesterday and today. And what we know right now is that, according to the investigators, the blood is from the three victims who were found, as you mentioned, bound inside the home last week, the mother, her 13-year-old son, Slade, and the mom`s boyfriend, Mark McKenzie. But none of the blood apparently has matched from the two children who are still missing.

GRACE: Also with us tonight, Captain Ben Wolfinger. He`s with the Kootenai County Sheriff`s Department.

Welcome, Captain. Could you tell us more...

CAPT. BEN WOLFINGER, KOOTENAI COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: Thank you, Nancy.

GRACE: Thank you, sir. Could you tell us more about the lab results out of Quantico?

WOLFINGER: Yes, the preliminary lab results on blood samples that were sent back over the weekend showed that the blood was only from the three victims, just from the 13-year-old Slade, Brenda, and Mark McKenzie. There is no blood identified with the children, either Shasta or Dylan. And that just reinforces our belief and our hope those children are still alive and still out there for us to be found and bring home.

GRACE: Captain, how many tips have you received as of tonight?

WOLFINGER: A little over 1,100, Nancy.

GRACE: And how are your people holding up? How many volunteers do you have? I know the FBI have sent some additional workforce for you.

WOLFINGER: Well, we have about 70 investigators working the case right now, about another additional 80 personnel, both paid and volunteer - - about 60 of those are volunteers -- that have come in to help us, answer the phones, feed the investigators, do whatever needs to be done to make this thing move forward.

GRACE: Back to Dan Mitchinson, with 1510 KGA Radio. Regarding the decision to send the forensic evidence to Quantico, agree or disagree, Dan?

MITCHINSON: Oh, I think the public agrees, as Captain Wolfinger has pointed out, this has been an operation that the whole community has come. And they realize that they have the best instruments that we have, and some of the best people in the business are back there in Virginia.

So it`s certainly not an ego thing. They want to find these two children. They want to find out who did this. And that is obviously the first place you want to start is back there.

GRACE: Captain Wolfinger, about how many samples, about how many bags of evidence, did you send to Quantico?

WOLFINGER: Oh, I couldn`t tell you how many bags, but I can tell you it filled a U-Haul truck. So there`s a massive amount of evidence that went back to Quantico. This is just the first round of results, and certainly just the first round of evidence that has to be processed there.

GRACE: Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDY HOAGLAND, AUNT OF SHASTA AND DYLAN: Our prayers are that we`re going to find that these two children are somewhere, that they`re alive, and that they`re healthy. And we just want them to be brought back to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: The big news tonight out of Coeur d`Alene, Idaho, is that some preliminary results are back from Quantico. The FBI lab suggesting that the children`s blood is not in the home.

Straight back to Captain Ben Wolfinger. Explain to us, Captain, the significance of this finding.

WOLFINGER: Well, what it does, Nancy, is it reinforces our belief that the children were not harmed in the home, and they were taken from the home, and not killed, and then transported somewhere else. That gives us the hope and reinforces the hope for all the people involved, the investigators, the volunteers, and the entire community here in Coeur d`Alene, that Shasta and Dylan Groene are alive and they`ll be coming home here soon.

GRACE: Captain, where are the investigators searching now?

WOLFINGER: Well, some of the investigators, about 30 of the investigators, are detailed to the sanitary landfill here in the county. Last week, we isolated the trash from the dumpster sites near the home into about a half-acre area of the landfill.

Now, those investigators have cordoned that off, isolated it, gridded it out. And now they`re searching that hand-by-hand, piece-by-piece, going through looking for any evidence from this crime.

GRACE: Captain, how big did you say that landfill is?

WOLFINGER: Well, the landfill`s huge, but they isolated that trash to about a half-acre area. They anticipate it will take five to ten days to search that entire area.

GRACE: Captain, I remember when the search for Lori Hacking was going on in a huge landfill. Question, how did they isolate -- why did they isolate that particular part of the landfill?

WOLFINGER: Well, the investigators commonly search trash for evidence after a crime. They realize that criminals just throw things away, figuring they`re going to hide it from the police that way.

When they realize the morning after the find of the three bodies that the trash had been emptied and was emptied daily, they contacted the solid waste department and they are able to isolate where that truck emptied that trash on both those consecutive days. And it was in that half-acre area. Based on that, they were able to cordon that off and now search that area effectively.

GRACE: Captain, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAM DOBLE, AUNT OF MISSING CHILDREN: I mean, it just can`t get any worse. My heart -- I know they`re coming back to us. They have to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Dan Mitchinson. He is the news director at 1510 KGA Radio. Dan, I realize this is a very big weekend for campers, and hikers, and tourists. I know that the police have asked for their help.

But I`m also concerned that it`s a double-edged sword, in that, if there is any forensic evidence along any of these trails to be found, that it will be ruined by campers and tourists.

MITCHINSON: Well, Captain Wolfinger has mentioned this several times at several press briefings, that if you see anything, report it. They don`t want you to touch it. They don`t want you to walk over it.

I mean, obviously, this is a very close-knit community. You`ve got people that care about these people. Several hundred people showed up last night for a memorial service in North Idaho. You don`t get something like happening every day.

But we`re expecting temperatures in the mid-80s over the next couple of days. A lot of people are going to be out for the unofficial start of summer. And basically, the captain has said that this may offer the family a little hope, an extra pair of eyes and some extra ears out there, something that they may have overlooked, or maybe they haven`t seen or didn`t think of.

GRACE: Captain Wolfinger, before I let you guys go, I want to find out, was there any blood discovered at the scene that did not match the family members, the boyfriend, or the children?

WOLFINGER: Well, not at this point. We haven`t been informed of any blood that didn`t match, just the three victims. But understand, too, that we haven`t completely analyzed all the evidence and all the blood samples yet.

GRACE: Captain Wolfinger, before we let you go, can you tell us anything else about the investigation? To me, this is very significant that the children`s blood is not at the scene. What do you think, Captain?

WOLFINGER: Well, I think that`s a good sign. I think the children are still out there. I personally have hope, renewed hope, that those children are out there and we`ll find them and bring them home.

And I think that news propped up all the investigators, all the people involved. They`re much more excited about the concept now that the children are still there, they`re still out there. We`re going to find them.

The investigation is moving along as fast as possible. With nearly 70 investigators involved, they`re using interview rooms at a variety of sites here, continuing to interview literally hundreds of people overall, following up on those tips, and as the lab results comes in, following up even further on the evidence that`s been provided.

GRACE: I want to thank Captain Wolfinger, Captain Ben Wolfinger with the Kootenai County Sheriff`s Office, still police-working around the clock, now joined by volunteers and the FBI.

Also, thank you to 1510 KGA Radio director Dan Mitchinson.

Gentlemen, good luck.

As we go to break, Elizabeth, let`s see the crane cam. Everybody, a guy -- oh, he`s still up there. A guy in Atlanta who allegedly killed his girlfriend in Florida has taken himself the top of this crane, totally blocking downtown traffic in Atlanta. Long story short, he`s holding himself hostage.

This is a live shot of the guy up on top of the crane. Police have been trying to talk him down. His name, Carl Edward Roland, age 41, climbed onto the crane around 4:00 p.m. on Wednesday. He is, again, holding himself hostage.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Michael Jackson, en route to court. Now, this was the day of armbands and military insignia. That changed. Now, there`s Brafman, and Geragos, who has, again, appeared in the courtroom. Now, that is quite the embroidery work.

Happy days for Michael Jackson, before he was charged with child molestation. Uh-oh, that`s after child molestation. The case still raging on.

The state not laying down and taking it. They are fighting back. The state has started its rebuttal case.

Tonight, let`s go straight out to Santa Maria, California, with "Celebrity Justice" correspondent Jane Velez-Mitchell. Hello, friend. Bring me up-to-date.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": Well, Nancy, another bizarre and really tension-filled day here at the Michael Jackson trial. The prosecution tried to bring in some extremely graphic evidence, specifically photographs of Michael Jackson`s genitalia.

They contend that he has a unique blemish on his private parts. They claim that the `93 accuser was able to draw a picture of that blemish. And they claim that that would prove that their relationship was not innocent.

Now, the judge ruled against the prosecution, saying, quote, "I am going to deny the request to bring in the evidence of the blemished penis." Now, that was certainly the quote of the day, and a very awkward moment, because there`s Michael Jackson, his parents right there. It was extraordinarily uncomfortable.

Now, prosecutors did win the right to introduce a videotape of the current accuser talking to police for the very first time back in July of 2003. Prosecutors say this is going to show that he was spontaneous and not rehearsed by his mom as the defense contends. The defends says, "Well, now, we may well want to bring back not just the accuser himself, but his very controversial mother, and a key psychologist, and a key attorney." So this could drag on for quite some time.

GRACE: Translation, surrebuttal. That`s what you`re telling me. So today the judge basically split the baby. He allowed the prosecution to bring in a videotape, audiotape statement the boy gave police. I think the jury will see emotion, shame, discomfort from the little boy in that video.

On the other side of the fence, he threw the defense a bone and disallowed a photograph, a giant-sized photograph, enlarged for trial litigation purposes of Jackson`s genitalia, compared to -- let me get this straight -- what the little boy drew, correct?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: The `93 accuser supposedly drew what the prosecutors called "the spot." And it was just -- I have to tell you. It was such a creepy moment in court. I mean, there is Michael Jackson sitting right there as everybody talks about his genitalia. It`s hard to describe what it was like to be part of all that.

GRACE: I don`t know. You`re doing a pretty good job, Jane Velez- Mitchell.

(LAUGHTER)

Here in the studio with me, I think we need a shrink yet again. Dr. Patricia Saunders is with us.

Dr. Saunders, I realize the judge`s ruling was based on his theory that seeing a picture of Jackson`s penis, genitalia, would be prejudicial, inflammatory. But the reality is, if there were unusual markings, if there were unique skin tone, a blemish, anything, and this `93 accuser could draw a picture of that, I find that highly probative. Explain how children that are too young to verbalize very often use artwork to explain a molestation.

DR. PATRICIA SAUNDERS, PSYCHOLOGIST: Precisely. And not even children who are too young to verbalize, even teenagers. The brain isn`t fully developed until people are really 20-years-old. It`s so much easier to represent and experience in visual form, in art.

GRACE: And of course, Jackson in the past has been extremely modest without his clothes on. Take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, SINGER ACCUSED OF MOLESTATION: I have been forced to submit to a dehumanizing and humiliating examination by the Santa Barbara County sheriff department and the Los Angeles Police Department earlier this week. They served a search warrant on me which allowed them to view and photograph my body, including my penis, my buttocks, my lower torso, thighs, and any other area that they wanted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That was from the `93 child molestation charges, response by Jackson.

Debra Opri, Jackson family lawyer, is with us tonight. If he`s so shy, how does this `93 accuser know all the freckles, and the dots, and the this, and the that about his penis?

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, let`s just put it this way. Judge Melville was very clear in his ruling on the rebuttal evidence that this is not getting in.

Why is it not getting in? Because we have a wonderful evidence code which surpasses the new 1108 evidence code. It`s called evidence code 352. And if it`s prejudicial to the accused, it doesn`t get in.

I asked why the prosecution didn`t try to get this in under the case in chief, under the 1108 prior bad acts. I think they did, and I think the judge basically said at that time when he was limiting it -- I correct myself, they didn`t try to get it in.

So the judge basically narrowed his focus to say, on the rebuttal, in challenging the credibility challenges of the defense, are you going to consider this 352 evidence to be prejudicial? It`s prejudicial.

GRACE: Oh, good lord in heaven.

To Michelle Suskauer, let me see if you can answer the question.

OPRI: I answered the question.

GRACE: How the heck -- I asked you, how did this boy in 1993, how was he able -- because don`t for one minute think if the boy -- the little boy`s drawing didn`t match his genitals, the defense would mind. They would go, "Oh, yes, we insist that you enter to show the boy had never seen Jackson`s penis."

If Jackson`s all modest, how did this kid -- how can he draw a picture of the penis?

MICHELLE SUSKAUER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, the state is getting incredibly desperate here.

GRACE: No, please, please, answer me.

SUSKAUER: And I agree with Debra. I agree with Debra.

GRACE: OK. You`re not going to answer me.

SUSKAUER: Why didn`t they enter -- I`m going to answer your question, Nancy, OK? But again, this little boy...

GRACE: Please answer.

SUSKAUER: I don`t know how he would know how to connect the dots if he didn`t see it.

GRACE: Well, think. I understand you`re an honor grad from law school. How do you think the little boy got that good a look at Jackson`s genitalia and could darn draw a picture of it for police?

SUSKAUER: I don`t know.

GRACE: OK, you know what? I think I have...

(CROSSTALK)

SUSKAUER: I don`t know, unless he had seen it.

GRACE: I know that hurt. I know that hurt deeply.

Back to Jane Velez-Mitchell. The state obviously lost a huge battle in not allowing this in. But again, Debra Opri, Michelle Suskauer are correct, this is the `93 accuser. How is the state going to bolster the current accuser?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let me just say, vis-a-vis that photograph, I think the judge has always said they don`t want the prosecution in this case to be able to hang their hat on much better evidence from the past. They want to stay focused on this current accuser.

And that`s exactly what the prosecution will now be able to do when they introduce this videotape, which I think could come as soon as tomorrow. Both sides are now viewing this videotape and trying to edit it down, so that there`s not a lot of extraneous material on it, to about 40 minutes.

And we shall see if this boy is spontaneous. He`s certainly going to be younger than when he took the stand this time around. So when you`re younger, it`s a more sympathetic situation.

And of course, when you`re not sitting in front of an entire packed gallery and the jurors, and you`re just talking to a couple of cops, you might be a lot more believable and spontaneous. So it may very well work well for the prosecution.

GRACE: Quick break, everybody. We are live in Santa Maria and the latest in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. Quick break.

But first, to "Trial Tracking." Today, the man accused of raping an 8-year-old girl leaving her to die buried in a dumpster is charged as an adult. Milagro Cunningham, who claims he is 17-years-old, he is from the Bahamas -- we don`t have a birth certificate -- allegedly snatched the little girl from her bedroom, beat and assaulted her, then tried to hide the crime by burying her under slabs of cement in a trash dump.

Police found her there hours later fighting for her life. If convicted, Cunningham could spend life behind bars.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": You know, I read in the paper today that Jackson`s legal team was disappointed with my testimony. In fact, Tom Mesereau, Michael`s lawyer, called me last night and said, "For Michael`s next molestation trial, we`re not having you back."

(LAUGHTER)

LENO: Lost another gig.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That is Jay Leno, "Tonight Show" host. He was a defense witness for Michael Jackson Tuesday.

I still say, Jane Velez-Mitchell, he was a state`s witness on cross- examination, Jane.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes. I mean, that`s what`s so bizarre about this case. The defense did pretty well during the prosecution case, and the prosecution did pretty well during the defense case. It`s an upside- down world here in the Michael Jackson trial.

GRACE: So what`s going to come next? Wait, wait, wait. Before I get what`s next, what about the attorney, Dickerman, on the stand? Hello? I thought that he and Mesereau were going to throw punches at each other.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, my gosh. I`m so glad you got to that, because that was really the fireworks of the day after these rulings. It was a slugfest, a verbal slugfest.

This is a lawyer who represented the accuser`s mother and got into it with Tom Mesereau. Speaking of war of words, people are shouting over here at us as we talk.

But they got into a war of words. At one point, Dickerman said to Mesereau, "Is this microphone working? You`re not hearing me. Let`s stop playing games and get to the truth of the matter." It was ugly.

GRACE: I`m sorry, Jane. What were you saying? I got busy with some state`s evidence. It`s called "The Boy," and it`s full of naked photos of little kids. You know, Dickerman is very important for the prosecution because he came on the stand and said that he had written reams of letters and e-mails and sent phone calls to Geragos to get this family`s furniture, their visas, their passports, their papers out of storage.

I will go straight back to Jane Velez-Mitchell in just a moment.

But as we go to break, Vegas is hopping tonight. Odds are about even tonight that Michael Jackson will walk. But before you lay a bet, everybody, let`s see how the state`s rebuttal case goes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

GRACE: Elizabeth, that`s not very nice, to have Michael Jackson`s head spinning like that.

Well, as I was mentioning earlier, Vegas is hopping tonight, odds even, as of tonight, anyway, that Jackson will be acquitted, will walk free. But before you guys -- OK, Elizabeth, that`s really going too far.

Before you guys lay a bet, let`s see how the state`s rebuttal case goes, because after the rebuttal, there`s a pretty good possibility there`s going to be a surrebuttal. It`s like a tennis match.

We are live in Santa Maria with Jane Velez-Mitchell. Also with us is the Jackson family attorney, Debra Opri.

Speaking of Debra Opri, Elizabeth, was there something you wanted to mention?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRI: Michael Jackson is not, I repeat, Michael Jackson is not being charged with lewd conduct.

He is being charged with I think four counts of child molestation and counts of serving alcohol with the intent to molest and conspiracy, 28 counts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. I got crazy and did a little legal research. We`ve got four counts of lewd acts, one count of attempt lewd act, one count conspiracy, one count child abduction, one count false imprisonment. And I didn`t believe the wires. Oh, yes, four counts administering wine, basically the intoxicating agent, and one count extortion.

I was afraid my -- I couldn`t believe my own eyes, so I actually dug up the actual indictment.

Dusty (ph), can we -- Debra, are you listening? Here`s...

OPRI: Is that the indictment?

GRACE: Yes. Then you know things that the defense team doesn`t know.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

GRACE: Lewd act on a child, count three, lewd act on a child, count four, lewd act, count five, lewd act.

OPRI: And what is it defined as lewd, Nancy, sleeping with children?

GRACE: Well, what it says, actually, it doesn`t really come clean about the lewd act. It does say, lewd and lascivious act on the body and certain parts of John Doe, child under 14.

OPRI: That`s right. That`s right.

GRACE: So sleeping with this...

(CROSSTALK)

OPRI: So, is what I said very different?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes. You said he was not charged with lewd act.

OPRI: When you look...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: He`s specifically charged with a lewd act.

OPRI: When you look at what`s going on here, you`re seeing both sides, the prosecution and defense, using lawyers to prove their case, you`re using past 1108 evidence to prove a case. And what you`re saying in terms of the lewd acts, you`re saying that just because he`s sleeping with a child, it`s against the law and it`s lewd act. It`s still not a lewd act, Nancy. Sleeping with a child is not a lewd act.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: If I didn`t -- Elizabeth, please.

OPRI: You want to play it again? I said he`s not...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRI: Michael Jackson is not, I repeat, Michael Jackson is not being charged with lewd conduct.

He is being charged with I think four counts of child molestation and counts of serving alcohol with the intent to molest and conspiracy, 28 counts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK. And I can fax you this, this lewd act indictment.

But, Debra Opri, rather than rehash the indictment, I`ve got a question for you.

OPRI: OK.

GRACE: Something I don`t know the answer to. Do you think the defense is going to put up a surrebuttal?

OPRI: Absolutely.

GRACE: What will it be?

OPRI: Well, the surrebuttal is going to be witnesses to challenge the rebuttal witnesses. And, unfortunately, we`re going to see more lawyers. I mean...

GRACE: Oh.

OPRI: I`ve never seen so many lawyers on the stand to prove either side`s case. It`s getting ridiculous. And I`m a Jackson family attorney. I just think all these lawyers and the -- it`s just ridiculous.

GRACE: OK.

I`ve got to go on the record agreeing with Debra Opri on this one. The jury actually rolled their eyes today in court.

Jane Velez-Mitchell, putting lawyers on the stand, lawyer v. lawyer, does not go down well with a jury. They don`t trust lawyers to start with.

(CROSSTALK)

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Especially a very exhausted jury. Everybody is feeling the tension. We talked about the fight between Bill Dickerman and Tom Mesereau today. People are exhausted. They thought, oh, this is coming to an end. Now it seems like it`s going to drag on longer. Tensions are high. Tempers are flaring.

And absolutely. I mean, people have gotten a lot of evidence here. The jurors have been taking notes. And I think that everybody kind of wants to wrap it up.

GRACE: What exactly happened with Dickerman? Dickerman is the -- I understand, the boys` family lawyer, who sent reams of letters, e-mails, phone calls to Geragos to get the family`s possessions back. Now, didn`t Mark Geragos say on the stand, I didn`t know they wanted the stuff back?

What happened? What did Dickerman say in court, Jane?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, of course, it depends on who you talk to as to what happened. But, essentially, the way I understand it...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Were there letters?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Geragos took the stand and said, I didn`t really know about these passports, the existence of these passports until way after the case. And I was going through my locker and I found the passports. And they were in an envelope, implying he was very busy. He was handling the Scott Peterson case.

Well, today, on the stand today, Bill Dickerman, who represented the mother, said, I sent him numerous letters demanding these passports, saying, give us back these passports. And he was absolutely livid on the stand. Now, Tom Mesereau tried to counter, hey, your family, the family you represent, didn`t want to pay for all the items that were in storage. And we kept saying, are you going to pick up the tab for the items in storage?

So it went back and forth and back and forth. Basically, somebody is not telling the truth. And, if you ask Bill Dickerman, that somebody is Mark Geragos.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: I`ve got a question. Into evidence today, did the state introduce letters written by attorney Dickerman to Mark Geragos asking for the family`s possessions out of storage, yes, no?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: There was new evidence, yes.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: That`s all I want to know. That`s all I want to know.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: E-mails and phone calls.

GRACE: And on cross-examination, defense attorney Tom Mesereau takes one of the letters and goes, you didn`t sign this, huh? As if that were a big discovery. And Dickerman explained he signed the original and made a copy for his records and didn`t sign the copy. And the two nearly got into a fight.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: It was probably one of the more vicious and angry -- one of the angriest fights I`ve seen since the trial started. And there`s been quite a few of them.

And that`s what I say. This is evidence that people are nearing the breaking point. Michael Jackson seems nearing the breaking point. He`s incredibly gaunt. His cheeks are sunken. He was hobbling out of court today. The reporters are stressed out, because nobody knows when this case is actually going to end. We get, well, it`s going to end in a couple of days, then it`s going to go on.

So, everybody`s up in the air. Nobody can make plans. And inside that courtroom, you just want to get a stomachache and a headache, because it`s almost palpable. It`s in the air, the tension that is filling that room.

GRACE: Back to Debra Opri, the Jackson family attorney. Do you think the state will reap as many rewards as it hopes by putting this video of the little boy...

OPRI: Yes.

GRACE: ... when it first went to police? But what kind of Pandora`s box will that open on surrebuttal?

OPRI: Well, the problem is this. You know, I believe, as a criminal defense attorney, that they should have expected that the prosecution was going to put this up.

I mean, Michael Jackson had his two-and-a-half-hour thing. He had the Neverland clip. So, what is this going to do for the defense`s responsibility to challenge? They`re going to have to analyze and attack the environment by which the boy was interviewed. Who was there? Who had spoken to him beforehand? Who had prepped him? What was he told to say? Where did he get his information?

And that`s why Larry Feldman probably is going to be called. That`s why the mother`s going to be called.

GRACE: Right.

OPRI: And that`s why the son`s going to be called.

I want to say one other thing. You are very, very -- you know, you enjoy throwing up montages and prior clips of comments I make. But I notice that, when I`m right, you never put up the clip saying, she was right.

Now, this thing about my comments about the lewd conduct, let`s just say, what the charges are and what I discussed yesterday really are different. Sleeping with a child was the issue. And sleeping with a child is not going to be argued or proven to be lewd conduct.

GRACE: That`s a really good point, Debra.

Elizabeth?

OPRI: Yes, well, repeat that tomorrow.

GRACE: Elizabeth, go ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: What is your man, Michael Jackson, doing 365 nights snugged up with this kid?

OPRI: He playing like a little child. He`s hanging out with the guys. He`s having sleepovers. What do I -- what do I -- what do I know what Michael Jackson is doing 365, 365, 365 days a year, Nancy? Have you been there? Have I been there? Has anybody said or proven that he molested them? No. On the contrary, he has had these witnesses saying, nothing happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OPRI: You know, you`re making me a cult figure. God bless you, hon.

(LAUGHTER)

OPRI: God bless you.

GRACE: As much grief as I give Debra Opri and Michelle Suskauer, let me tell everybody, these two ladies are veteran trial lawyers.

OPRI: We`re alley cats, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, we`re all alley cats.

OPRI: We`re alley cats.

GRACE: And I enjoy fighting with them.

Hey, before we go to break, Elizabeth, can we go down to the crane cam? Still -- yes, he`s there. This is a 41-year-old man who has climbed up a crane. He is wanted in Florida for the alleged murder of his girlfriend. The woman died. Apparently, all we can get for information is from upper body trauma, Carl Edward Roland.

Hi, guy. You`re blocking traffic. He`s been on top of the crane since 4:00 p.m. Wednesday. Police have tried to talk him down. He`s holding himself hostage and threatening to kill the hostage.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

OPERATOR: OK, exactly what happened?

DENA SCHLOSSER, DEFENDANT: I cut her arms off.

OPERATOR: You cut her arms off?

SCHLOSSER: Mm-hmm.

OPERATOR: And how old -- is this your baby?

SCHLOSSER: Yes.

OPERATOR: And it`s a girl?

SCHLOSSER: Mm-hmm.

OPERATOR: Is she conscious?

SCHLOSSER: No.

OPERATOR: Is she breathing?

SCHLOSSER: No.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: That 911 call says it all.

Tonight, in Toronto, the stepfather of Dena Schlosser, Mick Macaulay, is with us.

Welcome, sir.

First to Collin County, Texas, and WFAA reporter Mary Ann Razzuk.

Mary, thank you for being with us.

MARY ANN RAZZUK, WFAA REPORTER: You bet.

GRACE: What happened?

RAZZUK: Well, Nancy, first of all, this week -- I want to update you on what happened. We found out this week doctors at North Texas State Hospital in Vernon, Texas, determined Dena Schlosser is now competent to stand trial in her capital murder case.

The mother of three was charged last year of killing her 10-month-old daughter, Margaret, by cutting off the infant`s arms. In February of this year, a Collin County jury took just nine minutes to determine she was not mentally capable of standing trial. So, she was sent to the mental hospital where she underwent intensive therapy and received increased dosages of medication for about three months.

Her attorney says he talked to Dena Schlosser last Friday and her mental state has improved. He thinks now she can help him prepare for her defense, which she couldn`t do several months ago, because she was confused, not responsive, and not understanding the situation she was in -- Nancy.

Let`s go to Mick Macaulay, Dena Schlosser`s stepfather.

Sir, thank you for being with us.

MICK MACAULAY, STEPFATHER OF SCHLOSSER: Hello, Nancy.

GRACE: What happened the day the baby was killed?

MACAULAY: My understanding of it is, is that, in the morning, John Schlosser, Dena`s husband, left for work, and for some reason chose to return a phone call back to the house. At that time, Dena indicated to him that she had hurt the baby.

He chose to call the family pastor, Davidson, who advised him to contact another member of the church who worked at a day care center. Her name was Carolyn Thomas (ph). And Carolyn Thomas in turn called Dena. And Dena indicated that she had harmed the baby, and that, at that point in time, Carolyn called 911.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Mr. Macaulay, when did you learn the infant had been killed?

MACAULAY: About 4:00 that afternoon.

GRACE: Had she been having mental or emotional problems leading up to this?

MACAULAY: Yes. For about a year prior to that time, we were aware of mental problems. They were often...

GRACE: OK.

Very quickly to Michelle Suskauer.

How often, Michelle, does the insanity defense work?

SUSKAUER: It does not work very often, unfortunately. But in this particular case -- and again, Nancy, I don`t know what`s going on in Texas with mothers who are harming their children. This is another Texas case.

In this particular case, it seems from the information that I`ve reviewed that this is a woman who was profoundly mentally ill. And, again, this is probably the best defense that her attorneys are going to be using in this particular case.

GRACE: Well...

SUSKAUER: I think that she was on Haldol. She`s had a prior suicide attempt. But, again, juries don`t like to excuse people from crimes such as these. That`s why it`s such a tough defense. But, in this particular case, she really does have a history of some mental illness there.

GRACE: Well, you brought up a really good point, Michelle Suskauer. In Texas, there have been several moms recently that have murdered their children and then blamed God for it.

I`m referring -- as did this mom. I`m referring specifically to Andrea Yates, who killed her five children by drowning, called police, had locked the doors to the home and systematically killed each child.

Also, Deanna Laney. Deanna Laney took her children out one by one and stoned them to death in the backyard, two little boys. Both of them blamed God for it.

Back to Dena Schlosser`s stepfather.

Is it true that your stepdaughter had tried to commit suicide in the past and was on medication?

MACAULAY: Indeed. After the birth of Maggie, she did attempt suicide and was placed on medication, Haldol.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: What was the mode? What was the type of suicide attempt?

MACAULAY: I believe she cut her wrists.

GRACE: Cut her wrists.

To Dr. Patricia Saunders. Diagnosis?

SAUNDERS: Something rather rare. It`s called postpartum psychosis. Only about one or two women in 1,000 births have it. And it`s devastating.

There need not be any prior history of mental illness. And the birth itself triggers it. She`s got all the symptoms, homicidal, suicidal, paranoia, mood swings, delusions, hallucinations.

GRACE: Postpartum psychosis, as opposed to postpartum depression?

SAUNDERS: Yes. It`s a different entity.

GRACE: Back to WFAA-TV reporter joining us, Mary Ann Razzuk.

What do we know about her religious beliefs?

RAZZUK: Well, we actually talked to her pastor. And he actually denied that they had any close relationship with the Schlossers, nor did they -- nor were they regular members at the church. Her stepfather may actually know a little bit more about that.

My question, back to you, Mary Ann, is, reports have stated that she told her husband the night before the killing of the infant that she wanted her baby to go to God.

RAZZUK: That`s right. That`s right.

And he apparently didn`t think a thing of it and went to work the next day. And, as her stepfather told you, he -- she then called him at work, and he still was a little bit baffled by this. But he thought enough of it to head home immediately to try to find out and establish what was going on. There was one incident, though, prior -- a year prior in which there was a CPS investigation for neglect.

A neighbor or somebody, a witness, somebody in the apartment complex, called them, called authorities and said they saw her running down the street chasing her 5-year-old daughter on a bicycle. And then they returned to the apartment and found her maybe 2-month-old infant laying there unsupervised. So, that sort of prompted this investigation.

GRACE: Right.

RAZZUK: And, from what I understand, she received some psychiatric treatment after that, cleared by CPS in August before this incident.

GRACE: We`ll all be right back, everybody.

But first to tonight`s all-points bulletin. FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for this man, Keir Dulay Sanders, Sanders wanted in connection with the murders of his own grandparents, 40 years, 5`10``, 150 pounds, brown hair, blue eyes. There is an FBI reward. If you have any info on Keir Dulay Sanders, contact the FBI, 601-948-5000.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of the Jackson trial tomorrow, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us, as we remember an American hero, 21-year-old Sergeant Brett Swank.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Carl Edward Roland, 41, is still atop a crane in downtown Atlanta, totally blocking traffic. So far, he has been talking to police. He has taken a nap. And he has accepted a jacket from the cops.

Dr. Patricia Saunders, will he jump?

SAUNDERS: Rule of thumb is, if they`re not talking to the cops, they`ll jump. If they`re talking to the cops, they probably won`t.

GRACE: Let me go back to Dena Schlosser`s stepfather. Schlosser is facing trial now. She`s been deemed competent to stand trial for the murder of her little girl, a 10-month-old child she murdered by cutting its arms off.

Mr. Macaulay, I really respect defending your stepdaughter. What do you think is the right outcome in this case?

MACAULAY: I think that there`s no question that Dena was insane at the time that she killed Maggie and that I think that she needs intensive treatment. I would hope that that would be the finding of the court.

GRACE: Mary Ann Razzuk with us.

Mary Ann, is she in a treatment facility or in jail awaiting trial?

RAZZUK: She will actually -- she`s at the mental facility right now and will be transferred in the next couple of weeks back to jail.

And we`re told that they will continue the medications that she was placed under at the mental facility, which I`m told are helping her significantly, which the defense attorney says is going to help him help her in the case, so that they can work together.

Now, one additional point I wanted to make out that her defense attorney is exploring, and that she had three invasive surgeries to drain fluid from her skull when she was a small child, I believe 8 and 13. And that`s one thing he wants to look into to try and determine if that had anything to do with her mental state of mind at the time of this incident.

GRACE: I don`t know. Mary Ann, if they play that 911 tape to the jury, she`s so calm. She`s so coherent. But, according to her stepfather, she did have a significant history of mental illness.

Thank you, Mary Ann.

And, sir, thank you very much for being with us.

I`m referring to Mick Macaulay, Dena Schlosser`s stepfather.

A 10-year-old infant girl murdered by her mom.

I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you, as always, is to you for being with us and inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN.

I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight. And I hope to see you right here tonight, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And, until then, good night, friend.

END