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Nancy Grace

Murder Suspect Perched Atop Crane for Third Day; Day 62 of the Michael Jackson Trial

Aired May 27, 2005 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, it is day three and a murder suspect on the run still hanging on to a crane suspended 25 stories in the air over downtown Atlanta. Forty-one year old Carl Edward Roland wanted by police for allegedly murdering his ex-girlfriend. Roland in a standoff with Atlanta police. We are live in Atlanta.
And day 62 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. The evidence is in. Both the defense and the state rest their case, and the case makes its way to the hands of a jury.

And if you`re afraid to fly, turn off the TV. We go live to Florida for the trial of two America West pilots jet-blasted after a night of boozing it up and climbing into the cockpit of a jetliner.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Today, two America West pilots accused of manning the cockpit of a morning flight after drinking until 4:30 a.m.

And in a courtroom stunner, both sides rest in the Michael Jackson child sex trial after the state shows the Jackson jury a videotape of the boy accuser describing how Jackson molested him.

But first, we go live to Atlanta. A fugitive wanted for murder still clinging to a giant crane. This is a live shot, that crane 25 stories high. Forty-one-year-old Carl Roland on the crane, going on day four. Roland wanted for allegedly murdering his ex-girlfriend.

Tonight, in L.A., defense attorney Debra Opri; in San Diego, defense attorney Lisa Wayne; in L.A., psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall.

But first, to Atlanta and CNN correspondent Sara Dorsey. Hi, Sara. Bring me up-to-date.

SARA DORSEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, I can tell you, most of the people we`ve been speaking to that come here to take a look up there cannot believe it`s more than 51 hours after this began. And Carl Roland is still perched 25 stories above Atlanta. But that is exactly what we`re looking at.

I can tell you that, earlier in the day, he seemed to get a little agitated with the negotiators. They had a siren and a bucket on a pulley- type system on the top of that crane. And whenever he would move, that siren would move with him. They were not only trying to keep him awake, but probably trying to agitate him a little bit so he would come down.

He actually dismantled pieces of that crane and started throwing it. Also, though, mad at negotiators are his family members. They say, "Hey, you`re not making any leeway getting him down. Maybe we should take a try." Negotiators aren`t hearing that right now, though they say they`re going to wait it out and see when exactly Mr. Roland will come down -- Nancy?

GRACE: Sara, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF RICHARD PENNINGTON, ATLANTA POLICE: He approached one of the workers at this construction site, and they confronted him. And he told them to get out of the way. He had already committed a crime and hurt someone. And so the individual stepped back.

And then he went up the elevator, and then went all the way to the top of the platform crane. He is armed with some type of knife, like a little buck knife.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Sara Dorsey. She`s standing by there in Atlanta.

Sara, I don`t get it. This guy is wanted for the murder of his girlfriend, and he`s getting agitated? And his family is mad at police? Explain.

DORSEY: Well, his family is just basically telling us, obviously the negotiators aren`t being able to talk to him. They`re not working. Everything they`re saying is obviously not working. The family is just saying, "Hey, if he`s wanted on murder charges, which we don`t think he is" -- by the way, Nancy -- "but if he is wanted on those murder charges, let us help get him down, so he doesn`t jump, so nothing terrible happens, and that way he can face the music if, indeed, that`s what`s going to happen next." That`s the family`s stance right now.

GRACE: Sara, how the heck did this -- we`re showing you a live shot. OK, there he is. I recognize it. Those are his feet sticking up. He`s lying on a crane.

You know what? The police, law enforcement, the entire community, worried about this guy on top of a crane? He`s wanted for the murder of his girlfriend, everyone. I wonder who`s worried about her tonight.

Sara, how the heck did he get up there to start with?

DORSEY: Basically, what we`ve been told by police is that there is an elevator that helps gets the construction workers up to the top of that crane whenever they need to go there. He, like you showed in that sound byte, according to police, just went right past the construction workers, said, "Hey, I`ve already hurt somebody. You better let me go up."

And the construction workers, I guess, according to police, basically said, "OK, man," and let him go up. That`s how he ended up out here two days ago.

GRACE: So he just walked up to the operator at the construction site and asked to go up on the crane? I didn`t know it was that easy, Sara.

DORSEY: Well, I don`t think he necessarily asked. I think he basically told them. They saw him walking up to the elevator and said, "Wait, wait, wait," basically, according to police. And then he went on up.

I don`t think he gave the construction workers much of an option. He just told them what he was going to do and he made his way up. They didn`t stop him, couldn`t stop him, maybe.

GRACE: Forty-one-year-old Carl Edward Roland clinging to a crane. There he is. This is a live shot of downtown Atlanta. He has basically stopped traffic going on day four.

Elizabeth, do we have a picture of 36-year-old Jennifer Gonzalez? Jennifer Gonzalez, his ex-girlfriend, was allegedly beaten to death. She died of chest trauma. The man at the top of that crane, 41-year-old Carl Edward Roland, is suspected in her beating death.

Sara Dorsey, CNN correspondent with us in Atlanta, what can you tell me about this guy? What do we know about 41-year-old Carl Edward Roland? I know one thing. Police, out of kindness, somehow gave him a jacket. And what did he do? He puts the jacket on, and then rips off the police armbands, and throws them to the ground. Thank you very much.

Sara, what else do we know about this guy?

DORSEY: Well, we know he`s from a family of nine other siblings. He`s from Selma, Alabama, living in Florida at this point. And according to a police statement about this alleged murder, apparently, people in the area had seen him with his former girlfriend shortly before the murder took place. That, again, is according to the sheriff`s office in Pinellas County.

They also say that witnesses have said he had made threats against her in the past. Now, of course, his family is saying we don`t know him to be a violent man. We don`t any of this to be true. But that`s coming straight from a press release issued by the Pinellas County sheriff`s office.

GRACE: Well, speaking of his family, this is what his sister had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIWANA ROLAND, SISTER OF CRANE MAN: They`re not giving me an opportunity to help my brother. They feel that they want to get the credit, and he`s not going to let them get the credit, because he feel that I can get him down. And they know that I can get him down.

That`s why they`re trying to do what they want to do. And I feel for them. If they shoot my brother down, also, it`s going to be hell in Atlanta, Georgia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes, well, forget about hell in Florida. That`s where 36- year-old Jennifer Gonzalez was found dead before this guy climbs to the top of a 25-story crane.

Back down to Sara Dorsey, CNN correspondent. Sara, there is a warrant for his arrest out of Pinellas County, Florida, for murder, correct?

DORSEY: There is. That`s correct, Nancy.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police have to say, Sara.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENNINGTON: We know that he has a relative here in the metropolitan area of Atlanta. And so we are currently trying to locate some of his relatives to see if they can help us talk to this individual and encourage him into coming down off of the platform. That`s all we have at this time. We will be here until the duration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Sara. Sara Dorsey, all the focus on this guy who has affixed himself to the top of the crane. You know, this woman, 36-year-old Jennifer Gonzalez, badly beaten body, was found Tuesday in a retention pond behind an apartment complex, apparently beaten to death, and then discarded in a pond. She`s dead.

Now, has this guy made any communication with police at all? I understand they are trying to negotiate with him.

DORSEY: Right. We are told by police officers -- now, this is yesterday -- that he was talking back and forth. From what we can see on the ground, every once in a while, he will move closer. And you`ll see him kind of flailing his arms. And it looks like he`s talking.

We don`t know what kind of communication they`re having. That`s the missing link to the puzzle. Police are not sharing that with us.

I can tell you that, yesterday, his sister was on the ground yelling and screaming, because, again, police asked for family to come forward. When they got here, they were not able to talk to him. That`s what upset them.

But his sister was on the ground waving. He was gesturing back to her, "I love you," waving, those types of things. But she hasn`t been allowed up. So it seems like yesterday, at least, he was communicating. We saw it a little bit this morning.

I can tell you though, Nancy, it`s been very hot out here. And for most of the day today, he has been laying up on the crane, not moving around near as much as we saw him do yesterday and the day before that.

GRACE: To psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall joining us, what`s the best way to end this?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, the only thing that`s going to end this is something from something other than Roland, because he`s not able to end anything effectively. In fact, this is the kind of guy who cannot face anything. He had $40 in the bank and $10,000 of IRS debt when this started, right?

GRACE: Whoa, don`t even say IRS. They are the last ones you want to tangle with.

MARSHALL: He found out that his girlfriend would not reunite with him, and furthermore that he suspected she was dating somebody else. He experienced abandonment, rage and jealousy, so he ended her life.

Once he did that, he couldn`t face that. So he climbed up onto the crane to jump. Once he got up there, he couldn`t face that. So the police came, and once they came, he couldn`t face getting back down. So this guy can`t face anything.

So in answer to your question, how is this going to stop? It`s only going to stop unless some outside force or person intervenes. Look, the outside force might be that his kidney fails from dehydration and he falls off the crane. Or hopefully, some police officer will be able to talk him out of this.

And they do have specific tools for doing that, for making a connection with the person, helping them make a plan. And most importantly, they have to remind the guy that death is permanent. Once you make the decision to die, you can never take it back.

GRACE: Well, if he is, in fact, guilty of murdering his girlfriend, I think he has got a pretty good grasp of what death is all about.

MARSHALL: Yes, he does.

GRACE: The woman found face down in a pond, beaten to death, if he`s guilty.

MARSHALL: Of course, he`s seen it face-to-face. Right.

GRACE: To Debra Opri, veteran trial lawyer, I smell an insanity defense in the works.

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY LAWYER: You know, he`s building it Lego by Lego, Nancy. I mean, you know, let`s be honest with each other. If he did commit this murder, did he understand his actions? Well, the insanity defense may not fly with this because, you know, he`s sitting on a crane.

He seems to understand how he could get there. He seems to understand what he`s doing. I mean, he`s been there for so many hours. Does he take restroom breaks? Tearing off a patch of a jacket, you know, it`s just -- I don`t see an insanity defense flying, but I certainly believe that it`s going to be the first thing they claim, so...

GRACE: What about it, Lisa Wayne? Agree or disagree?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I think that there`s the obvious scenario that this guy is angry because he`s been wrongly accused. He`s angry at law enforcement, he`s tearing off the patches of a law enforcement jacket, because this is a guy who is wrongly accused. He didn`t do it.

And how do I garner attention to the world to let them know I didn`t do it? I do something bizarre like this. I mean, he is presumed innocent. And there is a scenario that is very consistent with that, Nancy.

GRACE: Presumed innocent. What do you think that warrant is out of Florida?

WAYNE: That doesn`t mean anything, Nancy.

GRACE: That means nothing? OK.

WAYNE: It means nothing.

GRACE: I`m glad you confirm my gravest fears about the defense bar, Lisa Wayne.

And very quickly, back to Sara Dorsey, CNN correspondent. Sara, has the guy -- Debra Opri very gingerly brought up the bathroom break issue. Has the guy eaten, has he relieved himself, has he had anything to drink? What?

DORSEY: Well, the police have told us in a press conference that they have offered food and water and he has turned it down. Other high-ranking police sources at the Atlanta Police Department tell us they are offering it only if he comes down. So there`s a little bit of a conflict there, rather.

As far as the relieving himself issue, that is actually something everyone out here has been asking. Has he went to the bathroom? We don`t know. We`ve had cameras on him all day and haven`t seen anything like that.

The only thing we can guess is, if he has, it possibly could have happened at night. There`s cameras out here then, but of course, any of us in the media knows you have to turn up your irises really high when it`s dark. Everything gets grainy, and you don`t see as much. That`s the only possibility, to put it gingerly.

GRACE: Sara, I insist that you investigate. You need to camp out there. You need to do a stake out and find out if this guy is eating, drinking or urinating. I want an answer on Monday.

DORSEY: I`ll see what I can do, Nancy. I`ll see what I can do.

GRACE: And speaking of stake out, I`ve got a way to get him down. Sniff him out. You need to start grilling a steak and let all the steak fumes rise up while everybody is picnicking on Memorial Day. The man will come down, all right?

Sara, thank you so much for being with us. Sara Dorsey, CNN correspondent.

We are headed to Santa Maria. But we will keep you updated on this guy. He`s affixed himself to the top of a 25-story crane. He is wanted out of Florida for murder. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENNINGTON: He appears to be very tired. He appears to be hungry. And I`m sure, at some point, he`s going to need some water, as well. Keep in mind, negotiators have been currently talking to him, trying to encourage him to come down. We`ve offered water and food to him, but he has not accepted neither water or food.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": This morning, the prosecutor in the Michael Jackson trial asked the judge if he could show the jury photographs of Michael Jackson`s private parts. You know, I`m glad I got out of there on Tuesday, OK?

(LAUGHTER)

And it`s not only the prosecution that wants to see these photos. Jackson`s two ex-wives, they`re curious too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Jay Leno, "Tonight Show" host, who was a defense witness for the Michael Jackson defense, but I think he turned into a state`s witness on cross-examination.

Let`s go straight out to Santa Maria, California, BBC correspondent Peter Bowes is with us.

But first, to CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands. Big surprise, both sides rested today. What happened, Ted?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this thing ended in dramatic fashion. At least the evidence portion of this ended dramatically. The prosecution finished by showing the jury the videotape of the accuser`s first interview with police.

The tape was over an hour in length. And jurors got to see, one more time, the accuser in this case alleging that Michael Jackson molested him on two separate occasions. And it was with police interviewers -- not interrogators, interviewers -- and it gave jurors an opportunity to bring this back to where it started.

There`s been a lot of discussion about a conspiracy, et cetera. And the testimony has wavered throughout. But this gave prosecutors a chance to bring it back to the sexual molestation charges against Jackson.

This tape was played against the wishes of the defense, but the judge ruled it could come in. We expected that the defense would then put on a surrebuttal, basically a rebuttal to this tape and the prosecution`s rebuttal case. However, in dramatic fashion, they huddled after the tape was played and then announced that they were resting, as well.

Most likely the strategy there, don`t bring this kid back for more questioning, don`t let him rehabilitate himself. The tape itself -- if a juror maybe thought this kid was lying, this tape may not have been enough to change that juror`s mind. And most likely, a very shrewd decision by Tom Mesereau and the defense team not to continue with this.

The decision was made, "Let`s end it." The jury should get this next week. They`ve got to hammer out the jury instructions Tuesday. Closing arguments should start Wednesday.

GRACE: To Peter Bowes with the BBC. Peter, welcome. Tell me about the tape.

PETER BOWES, BBC REPORTER: Well, you know, it was a story that we`ve heard before. This young boy, with a few discrepancies, told the story of how he claims he was molested by Michael Jackson on several occasions.

It started with the detectives actually reassuring him that he was OK, that he was safe. In fact, they were determined it was their job, if you like, to build a criminal case. And they put him at his ease. And then they slowly got round to this issue of what happened in Michael Jackson`s bedroom. And the fact that, well, this young boy says that Michael Jackson offered to show him how to masturbate.

And well, he was asked, actually, on the tape, did he know what an erection was? And he said no. There were some discrepancies with what he said in the courtroom.

Also, this story about seeing Michael Jackson walk into his room naked. Now, he told this story on the witness stand. He said that Michael Jackson, yes, came in, he was naked. We also heard it from the younger brother, and that the singer had an erection.

He didn`t say that on this tape. He said, in fact, it was so dark in the room that he couldn`t see the private parts of Michael Jackson.

Now, I`m sure that these are small points being told by a young boy, 12 then, as opposed to his age now, 12, 13 then. He`s now 15. Perhaps these tiny points that, with the passage of time, he has got a different recollection or perhaps he`s simply more confident about himself than he was telling the story for the first time.

GRACE: Peter Bowes is with us from the BBC. Also with us, CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands. They are live at the Santa Maria courthouse. In a stunner today, both sides have rested in the Michael Jackson child molestation trial.

Quick break. To "Trial Tracking": A 27-year-old Australian woman sentenced to 20 years behind bars in Indonesia for smuggling marijuana into Bali. Schapelle Corby`s vacation turned into a nightmare when she was arrested at the airport for nine pounds of marijuana in her suitcase. Corby says she was the unwitting mule for a drug trafficker. But a three- judge panel rejected the theory, even though it turns out Australian authorities are investigating an airport cocaine smuggling scam.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERCEDES CORBY, SCHAPELLE CORBY`S SISTER: To all our family and fans, we love you all. Schapelle is innocent. This verdict is unjust. The case now is in a new phase, and we`ll stand by Schapelle every step of the way. The lawyers have done their best, and with the support of all the Australians, thank you, Schapelle will be coming home soon. (INAUDIBLE) they didn`t take any of their witnesses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you imagine your family member behind bars for years and years in a foreign jail? Let`s think about it. This girl, Corby, gets 20 years for pot. And Muslim cleric, Abu Bakar Bashir, 30 months, repeat, months for his involvement in the 2002 bombings of a Bali nightclub that killed 202 innocent people.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Man, it is Friday night in Vegas. Tonight, odds are still even that Michael Jackson will walk, that`s right, be acquitted, 50-50.

Welcome back, everybody. Before we go back to Santa Maria, California, Elizabeth, can you put up the crane cam? I want to see how Carl Edward -- oh, there he is. Wait, where are his feet? OK, I think I see -- yes, all right.

Carl Edward Roland still affixed to the top of the crane 25 stories over Atlanta clogging traffic. The rest of the story, he`s a fugitive. He`s wanted in Florida for the murder of his ex-girlfriend.

Let`s quickly go back to Ted Rowlands. He was telling us about an abrupt end for the defense in the Michael Jackson trial after the state showed a video of the boy accuser telling cops what happened. How did the jury respond, Ted?

ROWLANDS: Jurors seemed somber afterwards when they brought the lights up. You could see their reactions. And people seemed, I guess, somber, would be the way I would characterize it.

Another reporter said that she saw an alternate juror with a Kleenex possibly dabbing her eyes. I did not see that. But you know, the lights were down. They had just seen an hour-long movie. I couldn`t really tell. I wouldn`t want to read anything into it.

GRACE: Now, Ted Rowlands, you and I sat through the Scott Peterson trial. And I saw all kinds of things happening in that jury box. And I saw people crying. You swore they were not crying. Are you sure you didn`t see the alternate crying?

ROWLANDS: I didn`t see the alternate crying. Someone else saw the alternate not crying, but saw them with a Kleenex, so...

GRACE: OK, everybody. I tried to crack the man. He`s not cracking. We are live in Santa Maria.

We have got to take a quick break. But we`ll all be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

GRACE: I only have one thing to say to all you veterans. Thank you.

Let`s go straight back out to Santa Maria, California. Standing by, Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent, Peter Bowes, BBC correspondent, plus, our panel.

Ted, let`s do a quick rundown of the major trial briefs that went down in the courtroom.

Elizabeth, if you could put up that graph.

Number one, the judge barred the pictures of Jackson`s genitals. OK, let me hold that thought for a moment. Details by the alleged boy victim would only have been visible on Jackson`s penis when in an aroused state. OK, there`s no innocent explanation for that. So, the defense is thanking their lucky star that photo did not come into evidence, compared to the little boy`s drawing of Jackson`s genitals.

Second, the judge ruled for the state, admitting videotaped police interview of the boy accuser where the boy breaks down and cries. Testimony about dozens of phone calls between defense attorney Mark Geragos and investigator, his investigator, counters Geragos` testimony that he had very little direction in the surveillance of the boy`s family, although it is tough to trace contact between Jackson and the alleged co-conspirators. He did not have a cell phone registered in his name.

To Ted Rowlands, if he didn`t have a cell phone registered to his name, then how did he talk on the cell phone? I`m talking about Jackson.

ROWLANDS: Well, apparently, he used his bodyguard`s cell phone. And you remember, the bodyguard is the individual that is now incarcerated in Las Vegas. They were going to bring him in, the prosecution, to tie Jackson to this conspiracy.

I think, when they lost his testimony, that really hurt their conspiracy case. We don`t know for sure, but we believe that he was going to be the one that provided, if you will, Jackson with a cell phone in terms of the eyes of the jury.

GRACE: Yes.

ROWLANDS: At this point, there`s absolutely no connection between Michael Jackson and any of these co-conspirators, because there is no direct link. They don`t have a phone to look at and compare to.

GRAY: Got you.

And to Peter Bowes with the BBC.

All these phone calls between Mark Geragos and the private eye that, I guess, ordered all the surveillance, that ordered the cleaning out of the family`s home and putting all of their belongings in storage, then not giving them back, did they make any connection, any headway with all these phone calls today?

BOWES: You know, I think the phone calls were extremely confusing for this jury, as they have been over a number of weeks. We`ve seen telephone calls supposedly connected by line charts on the big screen in the courtroom.

And I think it looked very confusing for the jury. I don`t really think it went anywhere today. I don`t think it went anywhere on the previous occasions that they`ve done this.

GRACE: Yes.

BOWES: And I think the crucial decision, the huge decision over the last 24 hours was to bring in this video.

GRACE: Yes.

BOWES: Forget the line shots. Forget the telephone calls. All of a sudden, this case is about the alleged molestation of a 13-year-old boy. That`s what jurors will be thinking about on this long holiday weekend.

GRACE: Peter Bowes, yes, did the boy cry in the police video?

BOWES: No, he didn`t. He seemed reasonably in control of himself. He did behave to me like a 13-year-old.

When they got to the very delicate area of the molestation, he paused. And he paused for a long time and he seemed to sink back in his chair a little bit. And his demeanor was very quiet and he was concerned. And the detectives were reassuring him that what he said in that room wouldn`t go any further. Towards the end of the interview, they said, look, we won`t tell your mother, we won`t tell your brother or sister what you`ve said. But he did give them some quite graphic details.

GRACE: Debra Opri, should the judge have allowed in the video?

OPRI: Yes. He allowed in the two-and-a-half-hour video of Michael in Neverland and there was specific rebuttal on the defense that he was a liar and that everything was staged.

What better way to rebut that than to put on the video of the interview? Going into the weekend, Nancy, it`s very interesting that Mesereau, and I think very courageous and confident, that he decided not to challenge it. If you really think about the video being the last impression going into the weekend, while many of us may believe that the last impression should have been Mesereau again cross-examining the young accuser, I think the decision was made that, why give him a chance to rehabilitate himself? And the jurors already know our position, that he`s staged, that he has acting lessons and that he now knows how to lie.

So, I think Mesereau, properly, is going to take care of that video of the accuser in his closing arguments, and I can`t wait.

And, Lisa Wayne, agree or disagree about the video? Apparently, one of the alternates was dabbing her eyes. And the jury was listening intently and watching intently to what the boy had to say to police.

WAYNE: Well, the only reason that the judge let them introduce that video is because the defense attacked his statements. So, they had to rehabilitate this witness. That video would never have come in, just putting it up there before he was attacked. Once he was attacked, it`s fair game.

And Mesereau knew that. And I think that he knew that, anticipated it and he has integrated that into his defense. So, I agree totally with Debra. Putting on a rebuttal would have been very, very unwise. Calling an alleged victim in your case, no matter how good you think he would have been, would not have been a good call.

GRACE: Yes.

Lisa, and there`s a certain point as a trial lawyer, you look at the jury.

WAYNE: Yes.

GRACE: When they start squirming around and they`re rolling their eyes and they`re falling asleep, you know what? Rest your case.

WAYNE: That`s right, Nancy.

GRACE: That`s one class they don`t teach you in law school. It`s called the sit-down-and-shut-up class, but it could really help. So, I advise all accredited law schools to start teaching that.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Now, here is what Jackson`s spokesperson, Raymone Bain, had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAYMONE BAIN, JACKSON FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: He wants to share with the whole world the fact that he is innocent of these charges. And if it takes him testifying to do it, he will.

It was not necessary for him to, but I thought that he would have been a good witness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Oh, I`m sorry. What did she say? I`m busy looking at this book. It`s called "The Boy." It`s an exact replica of the book taken out of Jackson`s file cabinet under lock and key, although, one night, I believe Debra Opri actually called it art.

It is full of nothing but little -- oh, there is one, drying off his behind getting out of the shower. Here`s several taking baths. Here`s one in a waterfall strategically -- oh, you know what? I`m going to get arrested if I keep describing this evidence taken out of Jackson`s file Cabinet.

Debra Opri, if the jury takes a good look at this, you really think they`re going to let Jackson walk?

OPRI: You know, that`s an open-ended question. I really think that book you`re holding, I think you and all the rest of the media is making such a big deal out of it.

And, you know, save it for another montage another time.

GRACE: Have you seen -- have you actually looked at this thing, Deb?

OPRI: Yes. And the jurors are tired, Nancy. And I`m glad Mesereau finished it today. And when they take a look at the book, you know what they`re going to see, more than anything? The inscription by Michael saying, it reminds me of the innocence of boyhood that I never had.

That`s what they`re going to take away from that book. You and I will take away the rest of the pictures.

GRACE: Well, if it`s so innocent, Lisa Wayne -- you know, Elizabeth, please, don`t get me arrested as we head into Memorial Day. Please, please, take down the naked boys.

Thank you.

OPRI: Send it to me.

GRACE: Yes, really.

And to Lisa Wayne, do you really agree with that? Speaking of innocence, the inscription in the front of the book, if this were so innocent, look, little boys, 8 and 9 years old, don`t lie back on the rocks in a waterfall like that and have their genitals taken pictures of, OK?

WAYNE: No. Right. Right. Right.

GRACE: It`s not normal. All right? So, innocent? This is not innocent.

WAYNE: You know what, Nancy? I don`t disagree with you. And I think we can all agree or disagree about certain pieces of art.

But the bottom line is this. Mesereau is going to say to them, that`s not a crime. You have got to focus in on what is the crime here, because having that kind of book on your coffee table is not a crime.

GRACE: It wasn`t on his coffee table.

(CROSSTALK)

WAYNE: Wherever it is.

GRACE: It was locked in a file cabinet.

WAYNE: In his bedroom, next to -- wherever it is, it`s not a crime. And so, don`t get caught in this red herring.

What is he accused of? Can they prove what he`s accused of? Nothing more. Don`t dirty the waters with character evidence. He`s a creep. He does yucky things behind close -- you know, that`s ridiculous.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know what? I know you have got a good record as a trial lawyer. But I would respect you a whole more tonight if you had not told me that guy climbed up to the top of the crane because he`s wrongly accused, all right? I kind of...

WAYNE: Well, Nancy, but you talked about that warrant thing.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Can you show me the crane cam, please?

WAYNE: But how many people do we know who have warrants who are innocent people? I mean, that doesn`t mean anything.

GRACE: I don`t know. I don`t know very many.

WAYNE: There are a lot of wrongly accused people in this country on a daily basis.

GRACE: So, he climbs to the top of a 25-story crane?

WAYNE: So, we can talk about him.

GRACE: you know, I`m not even going to get Opri started on this guy. I`m not even going to go there.

Quick break, everybody. Please stay with us.

As we go to break, I want to remind you, we at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at this beauty, Danielle Bell, 17 years old, last seen in the company of two men in Cantonment, Florida, September 2001.

Police close to cracking the case. If you have seen Danielle Bell or have any info on her, please contact the county sheriff`s office, 850-436- 9199 or go to beyondmissing.com. Please, help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO")

JAY LENO, HOST: I testified in the Michael Jackson trial earlier this week. You know, I`m sitting on the witness stand and Michael wouldn`t even look at me.

KEVIN EUBANKS, BAND LEADER: Really?

LENO: And then I realized, of course. I`m over 12.

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

LENO: Nothing personal. That`s what it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To all of you veterans, as we head into Memorial Day, the whole NANCY GRACE staff wants to say, thank you.

That was Jay Leno, "The Tonight Show" host. He was a defense witness. I think he turned into a state`s witness on cross exam.

Quickly out to Debra Opri.

What? What, Elizabeth? Did you say something about an alley cat?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As much grief as I give Debra Opri and Michelle Suskauer, let me tell everybody, these two ladies are veteran trial lawyers.

OPRI: We`re alley cats, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, we`re all alley cats.

OPRI: We`re alley cats.

GRACE: And I enjoy fighting with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, Debra Opri, give it your best shot.

Now, I know you`re the Jackson family lawyer. But you know what? Stand up, go to the plate, hit a home run. Be honest. Do you really think there is going to be an outright acquittal in this case?

OPRI: That`s a hard one, because I`ve been paying attention to the jury.

While I hope there will be an outright acquittal, I think there are going to be two or three lone holdouts that will be needing convincing or they will be the ones doing the convincing. We have a lot of counts. Very quickly, I don`t think the conspiracy is going to hold. Michael was never connected to any of it.

As far as the four acts of lewd conduct with the intent to molest -- and that`s a differential that you didn`t pick up on in reading the indictment -- I honestly think there`s not enough here, unless, Nancy, they truly believe the accuser is not lying or acting. And as far as serving alcohol to minors with the intent to molest, it`s not a separate charge of serving alcohol to minors. Unless they find the molestation, I don`t think they`re going to find the alcohol.

So, what do I believe, in summation? I honestly think there will be an acquittal. It will take some time, though.

GRACE: I don`t know. I think, guys -- I`m looking here at the indictment, count seven, specifically, administering an intoxicating agent to assist in commission of a felony, that agent, alcohol.

OPRI: I`ve got it, too.

GRACE: Yes.

OPRI: Tonight, I`ve got it, too.

GRACE: Yes.

Bottom line, you have got lewd, lascivious acts, but they`re open to interpretation, what that act is.

OPRI: That, I agree with you.

GRACE: It doesn`t say masturbating. It doesn`t say sleeping with. It is simply lewd act upon a child.

OPRI: But, Nancy, Nancy, am I on?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes.

OPRI: OK.

Listen, if you go over to count seven...

GRACE: Got you.

OPRI: ... that you`ve been bringing on, you have to see that the specific acts are saying commit a lewd act upon touching certain body parts.

GRACE: Yes, you`re right.

OPRI: So, unless...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes. And if they`re in bed 365 nights, I`m sure no toes touched.

OPRI: Hold on. Nancy, that`s not the issue. That`s not the issue.

The issue is, is there evidence to show that Michael touched this boy specifically? And there has to be -- I did my research. There has to be acts of specificity. And this boy never testified to that. That`s it.

GRACE: Very quickly, let`s -- we`re going to switch gears quickly and go to Miami. I want to give you an update on those America West pilots.

WIOD Miami-Dade reporter Al Warnell is with us.

Welcome, friend. Bring me up to date, Al.

AL WARNELL, WIOD REPORTER: Well, Nancy, we had no trial activity today. The judge gave the jury actually a Memorial Day holiday.

GRACE: Just tell me about the evidence. Where do we stand in the evidence? I don`t care about the holiday.

WARNELL: Well, here is we are stand in the evidence.

The basic situation is that we got a sergeant, a police sergeant, who is testifying right now that he gave a field sobriety test to the two pilots and he only gave one part of that field sobriety test.

GRACE: Yes.

WARNELL: There`s three parts in that and he only gave one part.

And based on that, he made an approximation that they were intoxicated. And I think what`s going to happen when they come back and they resume the trial on Tuesday. The defense is going to cross-examine him and said, you made an approximation based on the fact that you put your finger in front of these guys` eyes and they went back and forth and their eyes were wobbling?

GRACE: Right, the field test.

Very quickly to Lisa Wayne, defense attorney.

One of them got a 0.8, over a 0.8. One got over a 0.9 on the Breathalyzer. For driving in the state of Florida, 0.8 is over the -- that`s the limit. That`s when you got a DUI wrap.

(CROSSTALK)

WAYNE: Right.

GRACE: These guys are under federal law, a little bit different.

Do you really think, Lisa Wayne, that the defense, I could see and I could walk, is going to save the day for the defense?

WAYNE: Well, you know what? It was interesting, because, Nancy, they really focused in on what`s called the HGN test, the horizontal gaze nystagmus test, where you put the pen up.

GRACE: Yes.

WAYNE: And if your eyes flutter, then that`s an indication.

So, they`re attacking that this test wasn`t good, that one of the pilots supposed had mouthwash, that that interfered with the reliability of the Breathalyzer. And they`re attacking certain things in terms of whether or not they were really intoxicated. And we know that those Breathalyzers are not always reliable. So, I mean, that is what they`re going with.

GRACE: You know what, Lisa? That`s a good point. Breathalyzers, the defense will argue, are not always reliable.

But I can back that up with corroboration.

WAYNE: Right. That`s what they`re doing.

GRACE: Three independent noses smelled alcohol. The pilots stunk of booze when they went through the metal detector. Those witnesses have taken the stand.

We`ll be right back with Lisa Wayne and Al Warnell, WIOD, Miami-Dade reporter.

A quick break.

To tonight`s all-points bulletin.

FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Marcus Durand Head, wanted in connection with the murder of one man, attempted murder of two others, Marcus Durand Head, age 27, 6`1``, between 230, 280, black hair, brown eyes, scar on left arm. Take a look, armed and dangerous.

If you have any information on this man, contact the FBI 205-326-6166.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial Monday, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us.

As we head into Memorial Day, remembering all of our heroes, we especially recall this American hero, 24-year-old sergeant Jesse W. Strong.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Opening statements in the trial of two former American West pilots accused of being drunk while operating a jetliner, an airplane.

HILLAH KATZ, PROSECUTOR: What mattered most to them was enjoying their evening until 5:00 in the morning.

GRACE: A trash-dump-turned-burial-ground for an 8-year-old little girl abducted from her own home, and then a miracle, the little girl found buried alive deep under an abandoned trash dump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of us, the officers, the family, we all were expecting bad news. When the detectives first approached, they didn`t see any movement, any signs of life. But when the finger wiggled, everybody was overjoyed.

GRACE: An 18-year-old girl tonight wants to lock the door and throw away the key on her own grandfather. Why? Starting 11 years ago, at the age of 7, he began years of child molestation.

ASHLEY WHITE, ABUSE VICTIM: I didn`t think I was going to be able to do it, you know. At first, I had the courage and the strength. And then, when he admitted, I just -- I broke. It just -- all these years, he called me a liar.

GRACE: A stunning development out of Coeur D`alene, Idaho, in the case of two missing children. FBI lab results indicate the children could still be alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The blood was only from the three victims. There was no blood identified with the children. That just reinforces our belief that -- and our hope that those children are still alive and still out there for us to -- be found and bring home.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": It was a slugfest, a verbal slugfest. At one point, Dickerman said to Mesereau, is this microphone working? You`re not hearing me. Let`s stop playing games and get to the truth of the matter. It was ugly.

GRACE: I`m sorry, Jane. What were you saying? I got busy with the state`s evidence called "The Boy." And it`s full of naked photos of little kids.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight.

And, as I say good night for another week, a special thank you from the heart to all of our men and women, including my father, who have kept America safe and strong. Happy Memorial Day.

I`ll see you right here Monday. Good night, friend.

END


Aired May 27, 2005 - 20:00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Tonight, it is day three and a murder suspect on the run still hanging on to a crane suspended 25 stories in the air over downtown Atlanta. Forty-one year old Carl Edward Roland wanted by police for allegedly murdering his ex-girlfriend. Roland in a standoff with Atlanta police. We are live in Atlanta.
And day 62 in the Michael Jackson child sex trial. The evidence is in. Both the defense and the state rest their case, and the case makes its way to the hands of a jury.

And if you`re afraid to fly, turn off the TV. We go live to Florida for the trial of two America West pilots jet-blasted after a night of boozing it up and climbing into the cockpit of a jetliner.

Good evening, everybody. I`m Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us tonight.

Today, two America West pilots accused of manning the cockpit of a morning flight after drinking until 4:30 a.m.

And in a courtroom stunner, both sides rest in the Michael Jackson child sex trial after the state shows the Jackson jury a videotape of the boy accuser describing how Jackson molested him.

But first, we go live to Atlanta. A fugitive wanted for murder still clinging to a giant crane. This is a live shot, that crane 25 stories high. Forty-one-year-old Carl Roland on the crane, going on day four. Roland wanted for allegedly murdering his ex-girlfriend.

Tonight, in L.A., defense attorney Debra Opri; in San Diego, defense attorney Lisa Wayne; in L.A., psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall.

But first, to Atlanta and CNN correspondent Sara Dorsey. Hi, Sara. Bring me up-to-date.

SARA DORSEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Nancy, I can tell you, most of the people we`ve been speaking to that come here to take a look up there cannot believe it`s more than 51 hours after this began. And Carl Roland is still perched 25 stories above Atlanta. But that is exactly what we`re looking at.

I can tell you that, earlier in the day, he seemed to get a little agitated with the negotiators. They had a siren and a bucket on a pulley- type system on the top of that crane. And whenever he would move, that siren would move with him. They were not only trying to keep him awake, but probably trying to agitate him a little bit so he would come down.

He actually dismantled pieces of that crane and started throwing it. Also, though, mad at negotiators are his family members. They say, "Hey, you`re not making any leeway getting him down. Maybe we should take a try." Negotiators aren`t hearing that right now, though they say they`re going to wait it out and see when exactly Mr. Roland will come down -- Nancy?

GRACE: Sara, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF RICHARD PENNINGTON, ATLANTA POLICE: He approached one of the workers at this construction site, and they confronted him. And he told them to get out of the way. He had already committed a crime and hurt someone. And so the individual stepped back.

And then he went up the elevator, and then went all the way to the top of the platform crane. He is armed with some type of knife, like a little buck knife.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Sara Dorsey. She`s standing by there in Atlanta.

Sara, I don`t get it. This guy is wanted for the murder of his girlfriend, and he`s getting agitated? And his family is mad at police? Explain.

DORSEY: Well, his family is just basically telling us, obviously the negotiators aren`t being able to talk to him. They`re not working. Everything they`re saying is obviously not working. The family is just saying, "Hey, if he`s wanted on murder charges, which we don`t think he is" -- by the way, Nancy -- "but if he is wanted on those murder charges, let us help get him down, so he doesn`t jump, so nothing terrible happens, and that way he can face the music if, indeed, that`s what`s going to happen next." That`s the family`s stance right now.

GRACE: Sara, how the heck did this -- we`re showing you a live shot. OK, there he is. I recognize it. Those are his feet sticking up. He`s lying on a crane.

You know what? The police, law enforcement, the entire community, worried about this guy on top of a crane? He`s wanted for the murder of his girlfriend, everyone. I wonder who`s worried about her tonight.

Sara, how the heck did he get up there to start with?

DORSEY: Basically, what we`ve been told by police is that there is an elevator that helps gets the construction workers up to the top of that crane whenever they need to go there. He, like you showed in that sound byte, according to police, just went right past the construction workers, said, "Hey, I`ve already hurt somebody. You better let me go up."

And the construction workers, I guess, according to police, basically said, "OK, man," and let him go up. That`s how he ended up out here two days ago.

GRACE: So he just walked up to the operator at the construction site and asked to go up on the crane? I didn`t know it was that easy, Sara.

DORSEY: Well, I don`t think he necessarily asked. I think he basically told them. They saw him walking up to the elevator and said, "Wait, wait, wait," basically, according to police. And then he went on up.

I don`t think he gave the construction workers much of an option. He just told them what he was going to do and he made his way up. They didn`t stop him, couldn`t stop him, maybe.

GRACE: Forty-one-year-old Carl Edward Roland clinging to a crane. There he is. This is a live shot of downtown Atlanta. He has basically stopped traffic going on day four.

Elizabeth, do we have a picture of 36-year-old Jennifer Gonzalez? Jennifer Gonzalez, his ex-girlfriend, was allegedly beaten to death. She died of chest trauma. The man at the top of that crane, 41-year-old Carl Edward Roland, is suspected in her beating death.

Sara Dorsey, CNN correspondent with us in Atlanta, what can you tell me about this guy? What do we know about 41-year-old Carl Edward Roland? I know one thing. Police, out of kindness, somehow gave him a jacket. And what did he do? He puts the jacket on, and then rips off the police armbands, and throws them to the ground. Thank you very much.

Sara, what else do we know about this guy?

DORSEY: Well, we know he`s from a family of nine other siblings. He`s from Selma, Alabama, living in Florida at this point. And according to a police statement about this alleged murder, apparently, people in the area had seen him with his former girlfriend shortly before the murder took place. That, again, is according to the sheriff`s office in Pinellas County.

They also say that witnesses have said he had made threats against her in the past. Now, of course, his family is saying we don`t know him to be a violent man. We don`t any of this to be true. But that`s coming straight from a press release issued by the Pinellas County sheriff`s office.

GRACE: Well, speaking of his family, this is what his sister had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TIWANA ROLAND, SISTER OF CRANE MAN: They`re not giving me an opportunity to help my brother. They feel that they want to get the credit, and he`s not going to let them get the credit, because he feel that I can get him down. And they know that I can get him down.

That`s why they`re trying to do what they want to do. And I feel for them. If they shoot my brother down, also, it`s going to be hell in Atlanta, Georgia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Yes, well, forget about hell in Florida. That`s where 36- year-old Jennifer Gonzalez was found dead before this guy climbs to the top of a 25-story crane.

Back down to Sara Dorsey, CNN correspondent. Sara, there is a warrant for his arrest out of Pinellas County, Florida, for murder, correct?

DORSEY: There is. That`s correct, Nancy.

GRACE: Take a listen to what police have to say, Sara.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENNINGTON: We know that he has a relative here in the metropolitan area of Atlanta. And so we are currently trying to locate some of his relatives to see if they can help us talk to this individual and encourage him into coming down off of the platform. That`s all we have at this time. We will be here until the duration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Back to Sara. Sara Dorsey, all the focus on this guy who has affixed himself to the top of the crane. You know, this woman, 36-year-old Jennifer Gonzalez, badly beaten body, was found Tuesday in a retention pond behind an apartment complex, apparently beaten to death, and then discarded in a pond. She`s dead.

Now, has this guy made any communication with police at all? I understand they are trying to negotiate with him.

DORSEY: Right. We are told by police officers -- now, this is yesterday -- that he was talking back and forth. From what we can see on the ground, every once in a while, he will move closer. And you`ll see him kind of flailing his arms. And it looks like he`s talking.

We don`t know what kind of communication they`re having. That`s the missing link to the puzzle. Police are not sharing that with us.

I can tell you that, yesterday, his sister was on the ground yelling and screaming, because, again, police asked for family to come forward. When they got here, they were not able to talk to him. That`s what upset them.

But his sister was on the ground waving. He was gesturing back to her, "I love you," waving, those types of things. But she hasn`t been allowed up. So it seems like yesterday, at least, he was communicating. We saw it a little bit this morning.

I can tell you though, Nancy, it`s been very hot out here. And for most of the day today, he has been laying up on the crane, not moving around near as much as we saw him do yesterday and the day before that.

GRACE: To psychoanalyst Bethany Marshall joining us, what`s the best way to end this?

BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, the only thing that`s going to end this is something from something other than Roland, because he`s not able to end anything effectively. In fact, this is the kind of guy who cannot face anything. He had $40 in the bank and $10,000 of IRS debt when this started, right?

GRACE: Whoa, don`t even say IRS. They are the last ones you want to tangle with.

MARSHALL: He found out that his girlfriend would not reunite with him, and furthermore that he suspected she was dating somebody else. He experienced abandonment, rage and jealousy, so he ended her life.

Once he did that, he couldn`t face that. So he climbed up onto the crane to jump. Once he got up there, he couldn`t face that. So the police came, and once they came, he couldn`t face getting back down. So this guy can`t face anything.

So in answer to your question, how is this going to stop? It`s only going to stop unless some outside force or person intervenes. Look, the outside force might be that his kidney fails from dehydration and he falls off the crane. Or hopefully, some police officer will be able to talk him out of this.

And they do have specific tools for doing that, for making a connection with the person, helping them make a plan. And most importantly, they have to remind the guy that death is permanent. Once you make the decision to die, you can never take it back.

GRACE: Well, if he is, in fact, guilty of murdering his girlfriend, I think he has got a pretty good grasp of what death is all about.

MARSHALL: Yes, he does.

GRACE: The woman found face down in a pond, beaten to death, if he`s guilty.

MARSHALL: Of course, he`s seen it face-to-face. Right.

GRACE: To Debra Opri, veteran trial lawyer, I smell an insanity defense in the works.

DEBRA OPRI, JACKSON FAMILY LAWYER: You know, he`s building it Lego by Lego, Nancy. I mean, you know, let`s be honest with each other. If he did commit this murder, did he understand his actions? Well, the insanity defense may not fly with this because, you know, he`s sitting on a crane.

He seems to understand how he could get there. He seems to understand what he`s doing. I mean, he`s been there for so many hours. Does he take restroom breaks? Tearing off a patch of a jacket, you know, it`s just -- I don`t see an insanity defense flying, but I certainly believe that it`s going to be the first thing they claim, so...

GRACE: What about it, Lisa Wayne? Agree or disagree?

LISA WAYNE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, I think that there`s the obvious scenario that this guy is angry because he`s been wrongly accused. He`s angry at law enforcement, he`s tearing off the patches of a law enforcement jacket, because this is a guy who is wrongly accused. He didn`t do it.

And how do I garner attention to the world to let them know I didn`t do it? I do something bizarre like this. I mean, he is presumed innocent. And there is a scenario that is very consistent with that, Nancy.

GRACE: Presumed innocent. What do you think that warrant is out of Florida?

WAYNE: That doesn`t mean anything, Nancy.

GRACE: That means nothing? OK.

WAYNE: It means nothing.

GRACE: I`m glad you confirm my gravest fears about the defense bar, Lisa Wayne.

And very quickly, back to Sara Dorsey, CNN correspondent. Sara, has the guy -- Debra Opri very gingerly brought up the bathroom break issue. Has the guy eaten, has he relieved himself, has he had anything to drink? What?

DORSEY: Well, the police have told us in a press conference that they have offered food and water and he has turned it down. Other high-ranking police sources at the Atlanta Police Department tell us they are offering it only if he comes down. So there`s a little bit of a conflict there, rather.

As far as the relieving himself issue, that is actually something everyone out here has been asking. Has he went to the bathroom? We don`t know. We`ve had cameras on him all day and haven`t seen anything like that.

The only thing we can guess is, if he has, it possibly could have happened at night. There`s cameras out here then, but of course, any of us in the media knows you have to turn up your irises really high when it`s dark. Everything gets grainy, and you don`t see as much. That`s the only possibility, to put it gingerly.

GRACE: Sara, I insist that you investigate. You need to camp out there. You need to do a stake out and find out if this guy is eating, drinking or urinating. I want an answer on Monday.

DORSEY: I`ll see what I can do, Nancy. I`ll see what I can do.

GRACE: And speaking of stake out, I`ve got a way to get him down. Sniff him out. You need to start grilling a steak and let all the steak fumes rise up while everybody is picnicking on Memorial Day. The man will come down, all right?

Sara, thank you so much for being with us. Sara Dorsey, CNN correspondent.

We are headed to Santa Maria. But we will keep you updated on this guy. He`s affixed himself to the top of a 25-story crane. He is wanted out of Florida for murder. Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PENNINGTON: He appears to be very tired. He appears to be hungry. And I`m sure, at some point, he`s going to need some water, as well. Keep in mind, negotiators have been currently talking to him, trying to encourage him to come down. We`ve offered water and food to him, but he has not accepted neither water or food.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY LENO, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": This morning, the prosecutor in the Michael Jackson trial asked the judge if he could show the jury photographs of Michael Jackson`s private parts. You know, I`m glad I got out of there on Tuesday, OK?

(LAUGHTER)

And it`s not only the prosecution that wants to see these photos. Jackson`s two ex-wives, they`re curious too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: That`s Jay Leno, "Tonight Show" host, who was a defense witness for the Michael Jackson defense, but I think he turned into a state`s witness on cross-examination.

Let`s go straight out to Santa Maria, California, BBC correspondent Peter Bowes is with us.

But first, to CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands. Big surprise, both sides rested today. What happened, Ted?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this thing ended in dramatic fashion. At least the evidence portion of this ended dramatically. The prosecution finished by showing the jury the videotape of the accuser`s first interview with police.

The tape was over an hour in length. And jurors got to see, one more time, the accuser in this case alleging that Michael Jackson molested him on two separate occasions. And it was with police interviewers -- not interrogators, interviewers -- and it gave jurors an opportunity to bring this back to where it started.

There`s been a lot of discussion about a conspiracy, et cetera. And the testimony has wavered throughout. But this gave prosecutors a chance to bring it back to the sexual molestation charges against Jackson.

This tape was played against the wishes of the defense, but the judge ruled it could come in. We expected that the defense would then put on a surrebuttal, basically a rebuttal to this tape and the prosecution`s rebuttal case. However, in dramatic fashion, they huddled after the tape was played and then announced that they were resting, as well.

Most likely the strategy there, don`t bring this kid back for more questioning, don`t let him rehabilitate himself. The tape itself -- if a juror maybe thought this kid was lying, this tape may not have been enough to change that juror`s mind. And most likely, a very shrewd decision by Tom Mesereau and the defense team not to continue with this.

The decision was made, "Let`s end it." The jury should get this next week. They`ve got to hammer out the jury instructions Tuesday. Closing arguments should start Wednesday.

GRACE: To Peter Bowes with the BBC. Peter, welcome. Tell me about the tape.

PETER BOWES, BBC REPORTER: Well, you know, it was a story that we`ve heard before. This young boy, with a few discrepancies, told the story of how he claims he was molested by Michael Jackson on several occasions.

It started with the detectives actually reassuring him that he was OK, that he was safe. In fact, they were determined it was their job, if you like, to build a criminal case. And they put him at his ease. And then they slowly got round to this issue of what happened in Michael Jackson`s bedroom. And the fact that, well, this young boy says that Michael Jackson offered to show him how to masturbate.

And well, he was asked, actually, on the tape, did he know what an erection was? And he said no. There were some discrepancies with what he said in the courtroom.

Also, this story about seeing Michael Jackson walk into his room naked. Now, he told this story on the witness stand. He said that Michael Jackson, yes, came in, he was naked. We also heard it from the younger brother, and that the singer had an erection.

He didn`t say that on this tape. He said, in fact, it was so dark in the room that he couldn`t see the private parts of Michael Jackson.

Now, I`m sure that these are small points being told by a young boy, 12 then, as opposed to his age now, 12, 13 then. He`s now 15. Perhaps these tiny points that, with the passage of time, he has got a different recollection or perhaps he`s simply more confident about himself than he was telling the story for the first time.

GRACE: Peter Bowes is with us from the BBC. Also with us, CNN correspondent Ted Rowlands. They are live at the Santa Maria courthouse. In a stunner today, both sides have rested in the Michael Jackson child molestation trial.

Quick break. To "Trial Tracking": A 27-year-old Australian woman sentenced to 20 years behind bars in Indonesia for smuggling marijuana into Bali. Schapelle Corby`s vacation turned into a nightmare when she was arrested at the airport for nine pounds of marijuana in her suitcase. Corby says she was the unwitting mule for a drug trafficker. But a three- judge panel rejected the theory, even though it turns out Australian authorities are investigating an airport cocaine smuggling scam.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MERCEDES CORBY, SCHAPELLE CORBY`S SISTER: To all our family and fans, we love you all. Schapelle is innocent. This verdict is unjust. The case now is in a new phase, and we`ll stand by Schapelle every step of the way. The lawyers have done their best, and with the support of all the Australians, thank you, Schapelle will be coming home soon. (INAUDIBLE) they didn`t take any of their witnesses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Can you imagine your family member behind bars for years and years in a foreign jail? Let`s think about it. This girl, Corby, gets 20 years for pot. And Muslim cleric, Abu Bakar Bashir, 30 months, repeat, months for his involvement in the 2002 bombings of a Bali nightclub that killed 202 innocent people.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Man, it is Friday night in Vegas. Tonight, odds are still even that Michael Jackson will walk, that`s right, be acquitted, 50-50.

Welcome back, everybody. Before we go back to Santa Maria, California, Elizabeth, can you put up the crane cam? I want to see how Carl Edward -- oh, there he is. Wait, where are his feet? OK, I think I see -- yes, all right.

Carl Edward Roland still affixed to the top of the crane 25 stories over Atlanta clogging traffic. The rest of the story, he`s a fugitive. He`s wanted in Florida for the murder of his ex-girlfriend.

Let`s quickly go back to Ted Rowlands. He was telling us about an abrupt end for the defense in the Michael Jackson trial after the state showed a video of the boy accuser telling cops what happened. How did the jury respond, Ted?

ROWLANDS: Jurors seemed somber afterwards when they brought the lights up. You could see their reactions. And people seemed, I guess, somber, would be the way I would characterize it.

Another reporter said that she saw an alternate juror with a Kleenex possibly dabbing her eyes. I did not see that. But you know, the lights were down. They had just seen an hour-long movie. I couldn`t really tell. I wouldn`t want to read anything into it.

GRACE: Now, Ted Rowlands, you and I sat through the Scott Peterson trial. And I saw all kinds of things happening in that jury box. And I saw people crying. You swore they were not crying. Are you sure you didn`t see the alternate crying?

ROWLANDS: I didn`t see the alternate crying. Someone else saw the alternate not crying, but saw them with a Kleenex, so...

GRACE: OK, everybody. I tried to crack the man. He`s not cracking. We are live in Santa Maria.

We have got to take a quick break. But we`ll all be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

GRACE: I only have one thing to say to all you veterans. Thank you.

Let`s go straight back out to Santa Maria, California. Standing by, Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent, Peter Bowes, BBC correspondent, plus, our panel.

Ted, let`s do a quick rundown of the major trial briefs that went down in the courtroom.

Elizabeth, if you could put up that graph.

Number one, the judge barred the pictures of Jackson`s genitals. OK, let me hold that thought for a moment. Details by the alleged boy victim would only have been visible on Jackson`s penis when in an aroused state. OK, there`s no innocent explanation for that. So, the defense is thanking their lucky star that photo did not come into evidence, compared to the little boy`s drawing of Jackson`s genitals.

Second, the judge ruled for the state, admitting videotaped police interview of the boy accuser where the boy breaks down and cries. Testimony about dozens of phone calls between defense attorney Mark Geragos and investigator, his investigator, counters Geragos` testimony that he had very little direction in the surveillance of the boy`s family, although it is tough to trace contact between Jackson and the alleged co-conspirators. He did not have a cell phone registered in his name.

To Ted Rowlands, if he didn`t have a cell phone registered to his name, then how did he talk on the cell phone? I`m talking about Jackson.

ROWLANDS: Well, apparently, he used his bodyguard`s cell phone. And you remember, the bodyguard is the individual that is now incarcerated in Las Vegas. They were going to bring him in, the prosecution, to tie Jackson to this conspiracy.

I think, when they lost his testimony, that really hurt their conspiracy case. We don`t know for sure, but we believe that he was going to be the one that provided, if you will, Jackson with a cell phone in terms of the eyes of the jury.

GRACE: Yes.

ROWLANDS: At this point, there`s absolutely no connection between Michael Jackson and any of these co-conspirators, because there is no direct link. They don`t have a phone to look at and compare to.

GRAY: Got you.

And to Peter Bowes with the BBC.

All these phone calls between Mark Geragos and the private eye that, I guess, ordered all the surveillance, that ordered the cleaning out of the family`s home and putting all of their belongings in storage, then not giving them back, did they make any connection, any headway with all these phone calls today?

BOWES: You know, I think the phone calls were extremely confusing for this jury, as they have been over a number of weeks. We`ve seen telephone calls supposedly connected by line charts on the big screen in the courtroom.

And I think it looked very confusing for the jury. I don`t really think it went anywhere today. I don`t think it went anywhere on the previous occasions that they`ve done this.

GRACE: Yes.

BOWES: And I think the crucial decision, the huge decision over the last 24 hours was to bring in this video.

GRACE: Yes.

BOWES: Forget the line shots. Forget the telephone calls. All of a sudden, this case is about the alleged molestation of a 13-year-old boy. That`s what jurors will be thinking about on this long holiday weekend.

GRACE: Peter Bowes, yes, did the boy cry in the police video?

BOWES: No, he didn`t. He seemed reasonably in control of himself. He did behave to me like a 13-year-old.

When they got to the very delicate area of the molestation, he paused. And he paused for a long time and he seemed to sink back in his chair a little bit. And his demeanor was very quiet and he was concerned. And the detectives were reassuring him that what he said in that room wouldn`t go any further. Towards the end of the interview, they said, look, we won`t tell your mother, we won`t tell your brother or sister what you`ve said. But he did give them some quite graphic details.

GRACE: Debra Opri, should the judge have allowed in the video?

OPRI: Yes. He allowed in the two-and-a-half-hour video of Michael in Neverland and there was specific rebuttal on the defense that he was a liar and that everything was staged.

What better way to rebut that than to put on the video of the interview? Going into the weekend, Nancy, it`s very interesting that Mesereau, and I think very courageous and confident, that he decided not to challenge it. If you really think about the video being the last impression going into the weekend, while many of us may believe that the last impression should have been Mesereau again cross-examining the young accuser, I think the decision was made that, why give him a chance to rehabilitate himself? And the jurors already know our position, that he`s staged, that he has acting lessons and that he now knows how to lie.

So, I think Mesereau, properly, is going to take care of that video of the accuser in his closing arguments, and I can`t wait.

And, Lisa Wayne, agree or disagree about the video? Apparently, one of the alternates was dabbing her eyes. And the jury was listening intently and watching intently to what the boy had to say to police.

WAYNE: Well, the only reason that the judge let them introduce that video is because the defense attacked his statements. So, they had to rehabilitate this witness. That video would never have come in, just putting it up there before he was attacked. Once he was attacked, it`s fair game.

And Mesereau knew that. And I think that he knew that, anticipated it and he has integrated that into his defense. So, I agree totally with Debra. Putting on a rebuttal would have been very, very unwise. Calling an alleged victim in your case, no matter how good you think he would have been, would not have been a good call.

GRACE: Yes.

Lisa, and there`s a certain point as a trial lawyer, you look at the jury.

WAYNE: Yes.

GRACE: When they start squirming around and they`re rolling their eyes and they`re falling asleep, you know what? Rest your case.

WAYNE: That`s right, Nancy.

GRACE: That`s one class they don`t teach you in law school. It`s called the sit-down-and-shut-up class, but it could really help. So, I advise all accredited law schools to start teaching that.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Now, here is what Jackson`s spokesperson, Raymone Bain, had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAYMONE BAIN, JACKSON FAMILY SPOKESPERSON: He wants to share with the whole world the fact that he is innocent of these charges. And if it takes him testifying to do it, he will.

It was not necessary for him to, but I thought that he would have been a good witness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Oh, I`m sorry. What did she say? I`m busy looking at this book. It`s called "The Boy." It`s an exact replica of the book taken out of Jackson`s file cabinet under lock and key, although, one night, I believe Debra Opri actually called it art.

It is full of nothing but little -- oh, there is one, drying off his behind getting out of the shower. Here`s several taking baths. Here`s one in a waterfall strategically -- oh, you know what? I`m going to get arrested if I keep describing this evidence taken out of Jackson`s file Cabinet.

Debra Opri, if the jury takes a good look at this, you really think they`re going to let Jackson walk?

OPRI: You know, that`s an open-ended question. I really think that book you`re holding, I think you and all the rest of the media is making such a big deal out of it.

And, you know, save it for another montage another time.

GRACE: Have you seen -- have you actually looked at this thing, Deb?

OPRI: Yes. And the jurors are tired, Nancy. And I`m glad Mesereau finished it today. And when they take a look at the book, you know what they`re going to see, more than anything? The inscription by Michael saying, it reminds me of the innocence of boyhood that I never had.

That`s what they`re going to take away from that book. You and I will take away the rest of the pictures.

GRACE: Well, if it`s so innocent, Lisa Wayne -- you know, Elizabeth, please, don`t get me arrested as we head into Memorial Day. Please, please, take down the naked boys.

Thank you.

OPRI: Send it to me.

GRACE: Yes, really.

And to Lisa Wayne, do you really agree with that? Speaking of innocence, the inscription in the front of the book, if this were so innocent, look, little boys, 8 and 9 years old, don`t lie back on the rocks in a waterfall like that and have their genitals taken pictures of, OK?

WAYNE: No. Right. Right. Right.

GRACE: It`s not normal. All right? So, innocent? This is not innocent.

WAYNE: You know what, Nancy? I don`t disagree with you. And I think we can all agree or disagree about certain pieces of art.

But the bottom line is this. Mesereau is going to say to them, that`s not a crime. You have got to focus in on what is the crime here, because having that kind of book on your coffee table is not a crime.

GRACE: It wasn`t on his coffee table.

(CROSSTALK)

WAYNE: Wherever it is.

GRACE: It was locked in a file cabinet.

WAYNE: In his bedroom, next to -- wherever it is, it`s not a crime. And so, don`t get caught in this red herring.

What is he accused of? Can they prove what he`s accused of? Nothing more. Don`t dirty the waters with character evidence. He`s a creep. He does yucky things behind close -- you know, that`s ridiculous.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: You know what? I know you have got a good record as a trial lawyer. But I would respect you a whole more tonight if you had not told me that guy climbed up to the top of the crane because he`s wrongly accused, all right? I kind of...

WAYNE: Well, Nancy, but you talked about that warrant thing.

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Can you show me the crane cam, please?

WAYNE: But how many people do we know who have warrants who are innocent people? I mean, that doesn`t mean anything.

GRACE: I don`t know. I don`t know very many.

WAYNE: There are a lot of wrongly accused people in this country on a daily basis.

GRACE: So, he climbs to the top of a 25-story crane?

WAYNE: So, we can talk about him.

GRACE: you know, I`m not even going to get Opri started on this guy. I`m not even going to go there.

Quick break, everybody. Please stay with us.

As we go to break, I want to remind you, we at NANCY GRACE want very much to help solve unsolved homicides, find missing people. Take a look at this beauty, Danielle Bell, 17 years old, last seen in the company of two men in Cantonment, Florida, September 2001.

Police close to cracking the case. If you have seen Danielle Bell or have any info on her, please contact the county sheriff`s office, 850-436- 9199 or go to beyondmissing.com. Please, help us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH JAY LENO")

JAY LENO, HOST: I testified in the Michael Jackson trial earlier this week. You know, I`m sitting on the witness stand and Michael wouldn`t even look at me.

KEVIN EUBANKS, BAND LEADER: Really?

LENO: And then I realized, of course. I`m over 12.

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

LENO: Nothing personal. That`s what it was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: To all of you veterans, as we head into Memorial Day, the whole NANCY GRACE staff wants to say, thank you.

That was Jay Leno, "The Tonight Show" host. He was a defense witness. I think he turned into a state`s witness on cross exam.

Quickly out to Debra Opri.

What? What, Elizabeth? Did you say something about an alley cat?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: As much grief as I give Debra Opri and Michelle Suskauer, let me tell everybody, these two ladies are veteran trial lawyers.

OPRI: We`re alley cats, Nancy.

GRACE: Yes, we`re all alley cats.

OPRI: We`re alley cats.

GRACE: And I enjoy fighting with them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: OK, Debra Opri, give it your best shot.

Now, I know you`re the Jackson family lawyer. But you know what? Stand up, go to the plate, hit a home run. Be honest. Do you really think there is going to be an outright acquittal in this case?

OPRI: That`s a hard one, because I`ve been paying attention to the jury.

While I hope there will be an outright acquittal, I think there are going to be two or three lone holdouts that will be needing convincing or they will be the ones doing the convincing. We have a lot of counts. Very quickly, I don`t think the conspiracy is going to hold. Michael was never connected to any of it.

As far as the four acts of lewd conduct with the intent to molest -- and that`s a differential that you didn`t pick up on in reading the indictment -- I honestly think there`s not enough here, unless, Nancy, they truly believe the accuser is not lying or acting. And as far as serving alcohol to minors with the intent to molest, it`s not a separate charge of serving alcohol to minors. Unless they find the molestation, I don`t think they`re going to find the alcohol.

So, what do I believe, in summation? I honestly think there will be an acquittal. It will take some time, though.

GRACE: I don`t know. I think, guys -- I`m looking here at the indictment, count seven, specifically, administering an intoxicating agent to assist in commission of a felony, that agent, alcohol.

OPRI: I`ve got it, too.

GRACE: Yes.

OPRI: Tonight, I`ve got it, too.

GRACE: Yes.

Bottom line, you have got lewd, lascivious acts, but they`re open to interpretation, what that act is.

OPRI: That, I agree with you.

GRACE: It doesn`t say masturbating. It doesn`t say sleeping with. It is simply lewd act upon a child.

OPRI: But, Nancy, Nancy, am I on?

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes.

OPRI: OK.

Listen, if you go over to count seven...

GRACE: Got you.

OPRI: ... that you`ve been bringing on, you have to see that the specific acts are saying commit a lewd act upon touching certain body parts.

GRACE: Yes, you`re right.

OPRI: So, unless...

(CROSSTALK)

GRACE: Yes. And if they`re in bed 365 nights, I`m sure no toes touched.

OPRI: Hold on. Nancy, that`s not the issue. That`s not the issue.

The issue is, is there evidence to show that Michael touched this boy specifically? And there has to be -- I did my research. There has to be acts of specificity. And this boy never testified to that. That`s it.

GRACE: Very quickly, let`s -- we`re going to switch gears quickly and go to Miami. I want to give you an update on those America West pilots.

WIOD Miami-Dade reporter Al Warnell is with us.

Welcome, friend. Bring me up to date, Al.

AL WARNELL, WIOD REPORTER: Well, Nancy, we had no trial activity today. The judge gave the jury actually a Memorial Day holiday.

GRACE: Just tell me about the evidence. Where do we stand in the evidence? I don`t care about the holiday.

WARNELL: Well, here is we are stand in the evidence.

The basic situation is that we got a sergeant, a police sergeant, who is testifying right now that he gave a field sobriety test to the two pilots and he only gave one part of that field sobriety test.

GRACE: Yes.

WARNELL: There`s three parts in that and he only gave one part.

And based on that, he made an approximation that they were intoxicated. And I think what`s going to happen when they come back and they resume the trial on Tuesday. The defense is going to cross-examine him and said, you made an approximation based on the fact that you put your finger in front of these guys` eyes and they went back and forth and their eyes were wobbling?

GRACE: Right, the field test.

Very quickly to Lisa Wayne, defense attorney.

One of them got a 0.8, over a 0.8. One got over a 0.9 on the Breathalyzer. For driving in the state of Florida, 0.8 is over the -- that`s the limit. That`s when you got a DUI wrap.

(CROSSTALK)

WAYNE: Right.

GRACE: These guys are under federal law, a little bit different.

Do you really think, Lisa Wayne, that the defense, I could see and I could walk, is going to save the day for the defense?

WAYNE: Well, you know what? It was interesting, because, Nancy, they really focused in on what`s called the HGN test, the horizontal gaze nystagmus test, where you put the pen up.

GRACE: Yes.

WAYNE: And if your eyes flutter, then that`s an indication.

So, they`re attacking that this test wasn`t good, that one of the pilots supposed had mouthwash, that that interfered with the reliability of the Breathalyzer. And they`re attacking certain things in terms of whether or not they were really intoxicated. And we know that those Breathalyzers are not always reliable. So, I mean, that is what they`re going with.

GRACE: You know what, Lisa? That`s a good point. Breathalyzers, the defense will argue, are not always reliable.

But I can back that up with corroboration.

WAYNE: Right. That`s what they`re doing.

GRACE: Three independent noses smelled alcohol. The pilots stunk of booze when they went through the metal detector. Those witnesses have taken the stand.

We`ll be right back with Lisa Wayne and Al Warnell, WIOD, Miami-Dade reporter.

A quick break.

To tonight`s all-points bulletin.

FBI and law enforcement across the country on the lookout for Marcus Durand Head, wanted in connection with the murder of one man, attempted murder of two others, Marcus Durand Head, age 27, 6`1``, between 230, 280, black hair, brown eyes, scar on left arm. Take a look, armed and dangerous.

If you have any information on this man, contact the FBI 205-326-6166.

Local news next for some of you, but we`ll all be right back.

And, remember, live coverage of the Michael Jackson trial Monday, 3:00 to 5:00 Eastern, on Court TV`s "Closing Arguments."

Please stay with us.

As we head into Memorial Day, remembering all of our heroes, we especially recall this American hero, 24-year-old sergeant Jesse W. Strong.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: What a week in America`s courtrooms. Take a look at the stories and, more important, the people who touched all of our lives.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: Opening statements in the trial of two former American West pilots accused of being drunk while operating a jetliner, an airplane.

HILLAH KATZ, PROSECUTOR: What mattered most to them was enjoying their evening until 5:00 in the morning.

GRACE: A trash-dump-turned-burial-ground for an 8-year-old little girl abducted from her own home, and then a miracle, the little girl found buried alive deep under an abandoned trash dump.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of us, the officers, the family, we all were expecting bad news. When the detectives first approached, they didn`t see any movement, any signs of life. But when the finger wiggled, everybody was overjoyed.

GRACE: An 18-year-old girl tonight wants to lock the door and throw away the key on her own grandfather. Why? Starting 11 years ago, at the age of 7, he began years of child molestation.

ASHLEY WHITE, ABUSE VICTIM: I didn`t think I was going to be able to do it, you know. At first, I had the courage and the strength. And then, when he admitted, I just -- I broke. It just -- all these years, he called me a liar.

GRACE: A stunning development out of Coeur D`alene, Idaho, in the case of two missing children. FBI lab results indicate the children could still be alive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The blood was only from the three victims. There was no blood identified with the children. That just reinforces our belief that -- and our hope that those children are still alive and still out there for us to -- be found and bring home.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, "CELEBRITY JUSTICE": It was a slugfest, a verbal slugfest. At one point, Dickerman said to Mesereau, is this microphone working? You`re not hearing me. Let`s stop playing games and get to the truth of the matter. It was ugly.

GRACE: I`m sorry, Jane. What were you saying? I got busy with the state`s evidence called "The Boy." And it`s full of naked photos of little kids.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRACE: I want to thank all of my guests tonight. But my biggest thank you is to you for being with us, inviting all of us into your home.

Coming up, headlines from all around the world, Larry on CNN. I`m Nancy Grace, signing off for tonight.

And, as I say good night for another week, a special thank you from the heart to all of our men and women, including my father, who have kept America safe and strong. Happy Memorial Day.

I`ll see you right here Monday. Good night, friend.

END